Yesterday I asked readers to try to convince me why Gregoire shouldn’t pay for a manual recount. The fact that none of you succeeded isn’t surprising, but I was disappointed by the lack of honesty.
The GOP isn’t asking Gregoire to concede for the good of the state, or out of honor or decency. They’re asking her to concede because they want Rossi to be governor, and they know that with a 42 vote margin out of 2.8 million cast, a manual recount would be a crap shoot.
Which, of course, is why Gregoire should ask for a manual recount. She could actually win, legally, and fair and square.
Not enough of an argument? Try these:
A) Manual counts are more accurate than machine counts. That is why WA, like every other state (I’ve looked at), either mandates a manual recount when the vote falls within a very close margin, or allows the candidates to request one. Machines are used because they are faster and cheaper, not because they are more accurate. Random errors tend to be statistically distributed among the candidates, thus a 1-2% error rate is acceptable in most elections… but not when the margin is less than 0.000015%.
B) This is not a “best out of three” series. It is utter bullshit to argue that Rossi won the first two counts, and that Gregoire winning on a third count would not be legitimate. The accuracy of machine counts fall outside the margin of this election; the only thing the recount proved was that a manual count is necessary to accurately determine the winner.
C) It’s the law. This isn’t a game… this is about who will be the next governor, and it would be irresponsible of Gregoire not to avail herself of any measure the law allows to assure her victory. Rossi’s BIAW backers used the law to their advantage when they pumped hundreds of thousands of workers comp dollars into his partisan campaign, and you can be sure they explore every avenue of the law each time they want to pave a farm or drain a wetland. Gregoire has a responsibility to her supporters to use the law to protect their interests.
The Seattle P-I makes the argument that Gregoire should indeed seek a manual recount, but pay for it statewide, rather than in selected precincts: “Count ’em again, Sam.”
I don’t buy the P-I’s argument that there is some moral or ethical imperative that the D’s should pay for a statewide recount. But strategically, I say they should ask for a full statewide manual recount regardless. It wouldn’t be bad PR either.
After all, this is the only way we’ll ever know who actually won this election.
I …wait for it… AGREE. I read the Gregoire camp letter – sounds a lot like Vance’s press release. I say, let’s do it. But let’s make sure we ensure that there’s no fraud. And get a new elections director in King County… like Jim King.
Our state is on the line. If Rossi wins, the (conservative) change agent wins. If Gregoire wins, the (evil) status quo wins. Let’s get it right.
Also, let’s get it right because one “evil” or another will win. Let’s make sure we picked the right “evil”.
Goldy, you havent adressed the question in the last string, what positive result can you get by inserting the human factor in the vote count? I dont consider the wizardry of determining what the voter “intended” to be a plus. Also, not that the rules should change now, in the future we might be more justly tallied if whichever party wanted a manual recount in a certain precinct, the other party got the choice of which precinct actually DID the manual recount. Example, Spokanne county counting King countys ballots. Would add an air of fairness I think.
So, just how many recounts can Christine have until she figures out she really, did lose the election, even if only by 1 vote. And I think the idea of having Spokane County count King County’s ballot is brilliant. Just don’t trust King County.
I challege the claim that in this case, a manual recount is more accurate. Do you have some facts to back that up ??
Question to all: I just read “Governor Dean” Logan claim a hand recount as less accurate than a machine recount?!? Is this true or a Rosenblog & Seattle Times falsehood?
One more. The first recount was mandatory, because the margin was less than 2000 votes and less than 0.5%. Now she has an option of paying for a hand recount in selected precincts, or the entire state. If she chooses selected precincts, and the results overturn the election, then the state will perform a hand recount in the rest of the state, and that will be final.
One other note, Rossi can also request a hand recount in selected precincts to try to counter the precincts Gregoire chooses. That’s why, mathematically, her best strategy is to just pony up the bucks to hand count the entire state.
“It is utter bullshit to argue that Rossi won the first two counts, and that Gregoire winning on a third count would not be legitimate”
So tell me, why is it not bullshit to think these results are not real. Rossi has won the right to be our next governor because THE VOTERS GAVE HIM MORE VOTES THEN THEY DID THE OTHER TWO PEOPLE IN THE RACE. The first count said that, the second count said that. Why can Gregoire not face the fact she was rejected by the voters of this state?
Let”s face it, it sems there is some form of new allot scrunity, recount, comingbefore this is over. As Goldy so aptly points out it is proved in the laws.
I don’t think it is an issue where the votes are at. Looking at the official site this morning I was struck with all the inconsistent patterns. About ten jump off the page. Does not reassure me that a good job has been done when Yakima medium rural county shows 0 change and other even smaller counties show changes of hundred of votes.
Should take both the lists, irregularities alledged by the Dino R’s and the Gregoire D’s at face value, and assume we need a better count in all counties, carefully conducted, under the watch of the two parties and the sherriffs and legal teams
. Want all recorded on video, fully documented in every way. I want an accurate count with ten pairs of eyes looking at every contested ballot.
And the winner will be my governor.
Comment by Kyle— 11/25/04 @ 8:21 pm
I feel your pain, but a hand count – with independent verification, with many observers and many more safeguards – will finish this. I’m a Dinocrat who’s broken ranks and is calling for it. I read the Gregoire camp’s letter on the Seattle Times website – it sounds a lot like Vance’s press release.
Comment by Peter A.— 11/25/04 @ 8:44 pm
Or very simply Peter A. shares my views 100%.
Goldy- I for one would refrain from criticizing Gregoire for seeking a partial recount if: 1) she made it clear that she was putting her best foot forward, to as quickly as possible determine whether there were sufficient machine errors to justify the cost of a full state recount; and MOST IMPORTANTLY 2) she agreed no frelling lawyers- that this would be determined by a hand count of the machine counted ballots, and not simply a prelude to Florida redux with dueling lawsuits. And if she chose a full manual recount from the getgo, just condition two.
But at this point, the greatest threat to the integrity of the electoral process is the duelling lawyers. A pox upon them…
Dean Logan is a good elections director who has been under fire simply by being director of elections in the largest county in the state.
Everything he has done has been in accordance with the law, and he has the support of Sam Reed (Sam Reed was reported to be sad to see him leave the Sec of state office to take this King COunty job).
And before this election, everyone had praise for Dean Logan. Being attacked at all fronts shouldnt change that. Any of you want to be embroiled in the type of controvery he has been in? It’s not as easy as it looks, fellas.
Amen about Dean Logan. But now Gregoire is crucifying him!
In fact, of the eleven counties referenced in the Gregoire letter, eight have Democrats administering elections. The two picked on the most severely- Franklin and King- had elections administered by Democrats. Of the three administered by Republicans, only one has a “serious” issue raised- 147 “new” ballots in Skagit (the other two are Adams with seven “new” ballots, and Island with four “new” ballots). Of course, it is ALL blather- if there was fire instead of smokescreens, legal action would have already been commenced.
A pox on both party apparatus’ and the apparatchi- steal the blanket primary, now try and steal the Governor’s race. Let the county auditors and elections administrators do their jobs AND SHUT THE FRELL UP! Make the formal recount request, or concede (and GOP- just shut up- the next step is HER call, and she ain’t listening to you.)
I am still waiting for someone to explain what advantage there is to interjecting the human factor into this vote tally?
I agree with the comments about Dean Logan. He’s in a tough position … it’s really no-win for him. First being attacked by Republicans, now being attacked by his own party. I feel for him. And for all elections officials and their staffers (many of whom are elderly). I really think they are trying to do the best job he can.
In the Seattle Time article, Logan says “I’m not sure if you and I counted a stack of papers and said it was 500, if an hour later we wouldn’t say it’s 499 or 501. But that’s the process that’s prescribed by law.”
He’s right. Now multiply Logan’s statement by thousands of tired, worn-out elections workers. And tell me that’s going to be more accurate. Anyone who has counted large stacks of cash manually knows how troublesome it is. That’s why banks use machines.
The unfortunate situation with any near “tie” election is that the voter’s confidence in the process is less than the difference between the candidates. Whatever your political leaning … no one believes the process from registration to voting to counting is perfectly accurate. Depending on who and what you want to believe there’s perhaps .25% to .5% error inherent in the system. At least more than 42 votes! And neither Rossi or Gregoire are going to win by more than .25% or ~7,000 votes unless someone finds a bunch of uncounted ballots … all for one candidate! To make matters worse … the political parties don’t help the process pointing out the “anomalies” in the middle of a contested election. That just makes the average voter trust the process even less.
The fact is half of the voters are going to feel cheated regardless of what the official tally is. The official tally is Rossi by 42 … Gregoire people feel cheated. After the recount … say it’s Gregoire by 50 votes, Rossi voters aren’t going to feel cheated? No way … of course they are! Say it’s still Rossi now by 50 votes, Gregoire voters aren’t still going to feel cheated? No way … of course they are! It’s within people’s confidence of the system’s accuracy!
To say that the hand recount is going to settle this is fooling ourselves. It’s not going to be settled in anyone’s mind … whoever “wins”.
Thomas- I only disagree with your final comments- the vast majority of the people will believe this election to be settled if it is, in their belief, settled “fairly”- and “fairly” will be in the mind of each and every…
The average person is not taken in by cries for the perfect vote count. Most people know that there is an error margin, and that no matter what percentage it is, 42 votes s within it. And most voters in the state would, today, accept Dino Rossi as legitimately the next Governor of the state. Not because he won a perfect vote count, but because he won a fair vote count.
The only folks heavily invested in this fight are the two wings of the electorate- say 10% on each side, plus or minus. Gregoire has to convince folks that the process has been unfair to date- and in that, she risks undermining the legitimacy that our processes confer.
This extended campaign is wearing on the electorate, and she could gain a pyhrric victory if she gains the governorship, AND a sixty percent (or higher) disapproval rating before she even takes the oath.
One can speculate and argue for the best course to take at this point and which would be more “fair.” However, the legislature has long ago announced the rules concerning recounts. A party at this point is entitled to a hand recount period they they pay for it.
Gary Locke is going to be the governor in this state until January. There is no statutory rush to know the winner on election night. The reason for the delay between the election and the transition to the new governor is to permit the recount process to be played out in close elections. The rush to know a “winner” is completely media created at this point.
Erik- that is a good observation about the non horror of taking some time to decide this election. No hurry among my friends. I made the rounds on Thanksgiving, mixed with a lot of folks. Most democrats, most in a very big time fighting mood. Mad people. They seemed to like Gregoire more now than weeks ago. Interesting to see the Rossi cadre acting like their approval should weigh in at any level for Ms. Gregoire.
Dems want to fight back, no indigestion at taking another two weeks. State govt. is on auto pilot until mid Jan., all the managers will stay on the payroll until kicked off, it isn’t like the toilets wont’t be cleaned if we don’t get results by next Friday.
Of course now that the Bush operatives are here, per press accounts, the voice of God may soon emerge as it has been repetedly implied there is a pipeline, and Washington state is quite godless campared to the Bible Belt. Too bad for Gregoire the Republicans didn’t use their neat flier, the one the RNC used in the south about democrats taking away your Bible.
Take the time, don’t panic.
Now two really close state wide elections. Whee, this is the era where nobody disbelieves their vote is of no count. Should boost everyday voter ego, shouldn’t it. Parties spend tens of millions and it all comes down to me and my extended family. I have at least 42 cousins.
My opinion on the recount has changed the more I have thought about it. Initially I was swept up by the idea that “every vote should count and count every vote” – I was definitely in this “countilingus” camp with the ultimate climax to be achieved through a “hand job.” However, no matter how enticing “countilingus” might sound, I found myself agreeing with Gregoire that the election is essentially a “tie.” Within our ability to discern the will of the voters, it is a tie. A hand job might make us feel better, but lets not kid ourselves – in an election this close the margin or error in a hand job is greater than the difference in votes. Therefore, within our ability to discern it, the voters are equally divided on who they want to be governor. Taken as a whole, another way of saying this is the voters of the State of Washington are “indifferent” as to who the governor should be.
How do we then decide the governor? We can accept the results of the initial count and recount as legitimate and proclaim Rossi as governor. We could spend several weeks and several hundred thousand dollars for a “hand job” and accept those results as legitimate. Gregoire might win the hand job, but given he margin of error those results will no more reflect the will of the people than the recently completed machine recount. If we accept that the people of the State of Washington are indifferent as to whom their governor should be and another count while it might change the result will not resolve this “tie” then what is best for the state and its citizens? I submit the best course is to accept the results of the recount already completed and move on. We don’t need the turmoil, expense and time involved in another recount to reach a place that is no different than where we are today – a tie. The citizens of Washington will not gain with a recount – the only person who could possibly gain is Gregoire. Sure, she would be governor, but no more people will be happy with the results as are happy with the results of the current recount. For the good of the State of Washington we should call the election where it stands and as Lewis and Clark said “proceed on.”
I must offer two caveats. An attorney for the Democratic Party wrote a letter to Sam Reed mentioning several concerns that go to the legitimacy of the recount. Those questions should be answered. Second, if door to door validations of provisional ballots were obtained for only one candidate in King County, then in my opinion that constitutes political interference with the election process and should be disallowed. It may be legally or technically permissible, but that type of post election political activity should not be permitted. If that type of post election activity takes place, it should be equally applied.
Beyond these caveats, the best course for the people of the state is to recognize this election was a statistical tie, accept the legitimate recount results just completed and not drag this process out for several more weeks. No result will be perfect, but the longer we draw this out the more we call into question the validity of the entire election process. I think that will do more harm than good. The results might be different, but overall the people of Washington are indifferent (equally divided) as to the results. The people need rather some sense of legitimacy and closure. I think that would best be achieved by Gergoire saying she accepts the result of the recount. This would help legitimizing the process and help the state. The people are equally divided in their choice for governor, but we all want to have a sense of legitimacy in the process. Only Gergoire could provide that through a concession rather than through a hand job.
Jim- Interesting, but why do you think R’s were constrained by anyone from working absentees votes with flaws, so they might be bettter counted. In fact they did, saw them on live TV doing so. Seems like just a bogus issue. Work your base is the mantra of party politics and if R’s are surprised that Dems worked their base strongly, well, welcome to the tea party.
If you really want to get to a brass tack two one might suggest that Gregoire’s biggest mistake was to not work Seattle even harder instead of wasting millions in Eastern Wasington, costly and low yield, obvious Rossi strongholds.
A better week of get out the vote in three Seattle neighborhoods could have paid off very well. Wonder what happedned to the King County democrats, the Piece county Democrats and same of Snohomish? They all seem to have missed the boat bigtime, retrospect is so easy.
I support a statewide hand recount, and will live with the result. And next election make sure all my cousins vote.
Looking forward to more Chris Vance on TV, like a Sat. Night Parody of the thwarted political hack.
I to am a line crossing Dino-crat, and am all for A manual recount. But as per law, Christine should pay. If it were going the other way, i’d say the same thing. What bothers me about adding the “human element” is that were straying into Floridan territory. There need to be solid rules to the counting of ballots, and whos ballot should be counted. If a voter cannot turn in their ballot on time…out it goes! If your not bright enought to read the instructions on HOW to mark your choice (circling or checking the choice dosent cut it!!) then I dont believe you have the ability to make an educated choice. Plus, since we don’t have the punchcard ballots, are we gonna create a new “hanging chad”? Can’t ya see it now…” oh, it looks like a mark next to so-n-so’s bubble”…please!!
I’d have this opinion reguardless of whom I chose…on election day…by filling in the friggen bubbles.
Nice post, Jim D. I agree. My feeling about the enhanced ballots continues to be that now they have been permanently marked, who’s to say another committee examining them wouldn’t come to a different decision about what the voter’s intent had originally been. No way now to re-examine them.
I also feel that if I’m not bright enough to mark my ballot correctly, then it shouldn’t be counted and in particularly, shouldn’t be “surgically enhanced” by desperate vote seekers. If I do not have the reading and comprehension skills to understand the voting directions, it’s likely I’m not smart enough to have studied the campaign issues either.
Jim King–you have nailed it as well. People are interested in a fair count…not a perfect count. The machine is impartial and set to interpret to certain standards. It has no bias and the results are simply a total based on these reasonable standards. A hand recount on the other hand is far less “perfect” and since many ballots have already been handled and with so many workers you are bound to have some prejudice in future handling..let’s just accept this machine recount and move on.
One quick comment on the idea that there is no rush to decide who the winner is. It may be all well and good if Dino wins with the hand recount. But if Christine wins after selecting certain precincts, it will go to a statewide recount, and state officials are already trying to decide what to do if the race goes past the second Monday in January ( the start of session.) This is a budget year with a predicted deficit. If we get started late and have one or more special sessions, we could get dragged into August or even later tryingto resolve the budget.
Folks–if this were a banking matter, I’d bet you’d all have the same opinion. Say you took a bag of money to the bank–you counted it before you went in and there was $1000 dollars–then the bank teller counted it they said there was $856. Would you want the money counted for a third time? One of those votes was mine–and I blacked in the bubble correctly, but my county, Grays Harbor, counted the votes wrong the first time–if the election hadn’t been so close would they ever have discovered their mistake? In effect they wiped out my vote and let the person on the other side of the political divide vote twice. And those folks in Snohomish county that never got their votes counted the first time–did they deserve to have their votes added the second time–after all they did take the time to go to the polls and participate. All I’m saying is this; since there was such a big difference in the outcome from the first count, and the second count, then the voters deserve the third count–and the Democrats, as a true party of the little guy, need to pay for it–what better way to spend your ad money? As to the enhanced ballots–I don’t know if they should be counted or not, but I do know a lot of elderly people that want to vote, and have a clear idea of the candidate they support, but find it hard to understand the process–why don’t we have vote counting machines at the polling place that would reject improper ballots on the spot and give the poll worker the chance to help the voter with their understanding of the process–plus if every vote had a randomly numbered barcode and a duplicate the voter kept, voter fraud would be virtually eliminated.
At the bank, I would BE THERE to view the counting of the money.
Well, unfortunately I don’t have the ability, as it now stands, to watch the counting of my vote–and that’s my point– it wasn’t counted correctly the first time, but was the second. How many were missed the second time?
So you can’t be there this time, you weren’t there the first time and that makes you trust them more this time? That is something I totally don’t understand. How do you KNOW they didn’t count YOUR vote (or anybody else’s, for that matter.)
And on the flip side, perhaps some were created the second time.
Comment by Jim D— 11/26/04 @ 7:22 am
I hate to flip-flop, but IF the Gregoire AND, AND Rossi camps’ concerns can be addressed – then I agree. If memory serves, Rossi’s camp was concerned about the provisional ballots.
IF the concerns cannot, then go for the hand recount. I doubt seriously the concerns can be addressed.
Right on Josef–those nasty provisional ballots still need 100% independent verification…to the best of my knowledge it still hasn’t been done. Remember the Gregoire camp wants to count all ballots…not all legitimate ballots. I agree..before any hand recount let’s make sure these provisional are all legitimate.
By the way, does anyone know the final count of those 400+ affadavit/new voter registration card ballots that Berendt delievered??? Until their is 100% independent verification that each of these affadavits was signed by the VOTER (not his/her spouse), I will remain suspicious. If the Dems could find all these folks with unmatchable signatures…the R’s should be able to too!!
Comment by Mr. Cynical-dy— 11/26/04 @ 4:17 pm
A-MEN.
Rae–precisely why I won’t vote anymore–no one can guarantee me that any of the ballots I’ve cast in the last 39 years have been counted, or counted correctly. So, I’m out of the system, probably for life.
You know it just occurred to me that I don’t give a big rat’s rear who our Governor is, or who our President is. There is nothing they can do, short of nuclear war, that will effect me. My house is paid for, my cars are paid for, I’m self-employed, my children are not draft age, I grow my own food, I have guns that NOBODY will get, I have enough money to live on. If taxes are raised I’ll just find something else that I can do without. And, it has occurred to me that I must have way too much time on my hands to be able to post to this blog! Whew! I’d better get busy doing the things that need to be done. BYE!
Wow goldy, seems like a good slice of the state is tuning into your blog now. No longer is it dominated by the Eyman detesting left!
What’s the fun in preaching to the converted?
Would some of you neo-cons please explain how it is possible to verify the validity of the provisional ballots when the Republicans have THROWN OUT over 2700 of them? Also, how is it possible to perform a recount in counties which use electronic voting machines which have no paper trail because Republicans turned the push for a paper trail into a partisan issue and blocked the effort? No matter how many times you ask a computer how many votes it counted it’s always going to give the same answer, whether it’s a day, a week, a month or even a year after the vote. The entire point of the paper trail was so that we could verify the validity of the votes. Now that Republicans have had their way with the elections process, it is impossible to perform a recount in the two counties which use electronic voting machines, which also have had more votes cast than there are registered voters, and, conveniently are Republican counties. Will someone please attempt to defend the indefensible position that it is acceptable to commit voter fraud?
Brent-Rudy—The Republicans have THROWN OUT over 2700 provisional ballots????? Please give us your source of information to back up this outrageous statement. Your spin cycle is so out-of-control…how could anyone take you seriously. I liked you better when you were Rudy..the Angry Gay Male!!!!
This Brent thing is making you more like Linda Blair!!
Every local news organization which has covered the governor’s race has reported about these issues. The job of validating these complaints is that of the Secretary of State. The Gregoire campaign sent Sam Reed a letter asking him to investigate the fact that 2700 provisional ballots were thrown out in Republican counties and the fact that there were more votes cast than there are registered voters in two Republican counties. After receiving the letter, Sam Reed stated that these anomalies in the voting process are normal and happen in most elections, and the issues have been addressed. The issues raised amount to overt voter fraud, and were not normal and did not happen in most elections before Republicans started committing voter fraud nation-wide on a massive scale. The fact that he doesn’t believe it is his responsibility to investigate cases of obvious voter fraud (all you have to do is look at the number of votes cast and the number of registered voters to see that more ballots were cast than there are registered voters) shows that he believes that it is acceptable for Republicans to commit voter fraud, a felony, and he is completely unwilling to do his job because the Republican won the first two counts and he is a partisan hack. So, to answer your question, they’ve all reported about the 2700 ballots being thrown away by Republicans and the casting of more ballots than there are registered voters in Republican counties. You don’t need the media to verify the claim about more ballots being cast than there are registered voters. All you have to do is look at the total vote counts and the voter registration lists. The fact of the matter is that there WERE more ballots cast than registered voters. That issue and the issue of Democratic party observers watching Republicans throw away 2700 votes needs to be seriously investigated by the Secretary of State, yet he refuses to do his job, saying that these things are normal for an election and the issues have been addressed, when they are quite obviously not normal for an election and the issues have not been addressed by him. Sam Reed needs to put partisan politics aside and do his job, yet he refuses to do so. If you’re upset that these issues were not properly investigated and addressed, take it up with Sam Reed since it is his job to investigate such issues. If you don’t believe that these issues have been reported, you need to pay much closer attention to what has and what has not been reported.
If you’re so completely retarded that you cannot comprehend that my name is not Rudy, but it is actually Brent, you need to be locked in an institution for a long, long time. Your mentally ill ramblings are pathetic at best.
I noticed that Mr. Cynical-dy conveniently failed to address the issue of Democrats pushing for a paper trail and Republicans turning it into a partisan issue and blocking the effort, and the issue of how this issue makes it impossible to perform a proper machine or manual recount in the two counties which use these machines, which also conveniently are Republican counties and have had more ballots cast than there are registered voters.
Brent-Rudy–
The issue of more votes than registered voters was just more pathetic Dem. rumor-mongering. It turned out the Dems failed to do their homework (as usual) and they failed to add NEW VOTER REGISTRATION to the prior total….SO NO PROBLEM EXISTS!!!
Every County Auditor has the responsibility of attempting to validate Provisional Ballots. They did so in every County. After accepting the vast majority (some of which were questionable in my opinion), the ones you refer to are those they simply could not validate. Brent/Rudy, you obviously would prefer to have as many ballots as necessary counted until your candidate is ahead. Pitiful Brent/Rudy!!!!!
Everyone agrees there must be many election reforms…including reviewing the Voter Registration Lists!!!! This is a topic you avoid at all costs Brent/Rudy…because you know there are plenty of illegitimate registrations. Counting the votes properly is one thing. But the first step is to legitimize all registered voters and make sure you can confirm it is that person who actually votes. COUNTING IS THE FINAL STEP BRENT/RUDY!!!
Mr. Cynical-dy – you attack me for pointing out well-reported news stories by claiming that they were not reported, and then you make up some obvious partisan bullshit without citing any sources. You’ll notice that when you asked me to site my sources, I sited every single local news organization. Who is your source for the partisan bullshit you just spouted? Karl Rove? Roger Ailes? Rupert Murdoch? Tim Eyman? You lambaste Democrats for rumor-mongering without citing any sources to back up your outrageous claim, and then you proceed to engage in rumor-mongering about Democrats not doing their homework. Your hypocrisy and obvious mental illness are overwhelmingly evident in your statements. Why would anyone care what you have to say when you lambaste people for doing something and then immediately do the same exact thing? Also, why would anyone care what you have to say when you can’t even read my name? It’s Brent. Who the hell is Rudy?
Also, you’re so ill informed about the situation and didn’t even bother to read what I wrote that you claimed that the ballots to which I referred are provisional ballots which were verified to be illegitimate, when what has been reported on a massive scale, and what I pointed out myself is that they were THROWN AWAY SO THAT DURING THIS MANUAL RECOUNT, THEIR VALIDITY CANNOT BE VERIFIED AND THEY CANNOT BE COUNTED. Throwing away ballots is different from verifying that they are illegitimate and deciding not to count them.
In your final paragraph, you make my point for me. First ballots should be verified and then they should be counted. During the manual recount, the provisional ballots to which I referred cannot be verified or counted because they have been THROWN AWAY.
You have posted two messages regarding my comments since I posted my initial message, and in neither of your comments do you address the issue that Democrats pushed for a paper trail for electronic voting machines so that recounts can be properly conducted, and Republicans turned it into a partisan issue and blocked the efforts to instate a paper trail. The idea was to have the electronic voting machines (computers) print out a paper stating for whom the voter voted so that the voter could verify that their vote was accurately counted. The voter would then put the paper in a locked box so that if a machine and/or manual recount occurs, the votes could be verified by vote counters under the close supervision of members from the state Republican and Democratic parties and the local elections officials. There is only one ballot on an electronic voting machine. It simply adds the voter’s votes to the vote totals and resets the ballot. You can ask a computer how many votes it counted and it will always respond with the same exact result because it is a computer. What it counted is what it counted, whether or not what it counted was accurate. The entire point of the paper trail was so that it would be possible to verify each individual vote, and since Republicans turned the issue of a paper trail into a partisan issue and blocked Democrats’ efforts to instate a paper trail, a proper manual recount in the two counties in Washington state which use electronic voting machines is impossible. The Republicans have deliberately prevented the ability to properly perform a recount, which amounts to voter fraud, and for their actions they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I have repeatedly brought this issue to your attention, yet you repeatedly refuse to address the subject because you know that I’m right. If you thought that I’m wrong about this issue and had any evidence to refute my comments, you would have already addressed the issue and presented said evidence.
Brent/Rudy–
You conveniently failed to acknowledge your misstatement about more votes than registered voters. That was because you were wrong!! Again!
Give me your source that ballots were “thrown away”. That simply doesn’t happen…as much as you would like it to. County Auditors retain those ballots…they just don’t count them!!
Your rantings about “republicans deliverately preventing the ability to perform a recount and this voter fraud!” is ludicrous. Do you think they had some crystal ball?? You are a conspiracy theory flake. Everyone knows it’s you Rudy.
Brent, you are totally off concerning the recount of the provisional ballots. In a recount all you are supposed to be doing is recounting the same ballots you counted the first time. It is too late to verify the validity of provisional ballots and it would be illegal to add them into the count.
I don’t know anything about the other two issues, so I won’t comment about them from a factual or legal standpoint. But my personal opinion as a software engineer, is I don’t trust computers and believe there should be a paper trail for every vote.
I know it’s too late to verify the validity of the provisional ballots. They should have been verified during the initial vote tally, but instead they were thrown away. This is voter fraud and the people who committed this felony should be held accountable for their actions. If they had decided not to verify the validity of the provisional ballots and decided not to count any of them during the initial vote count but had not thrown them away, they could be held accountable for voter fraud for not verifying the validity of the provisional ballots and the act of verifying them could still take place during the manual recount. Normally they couldn’t, but when voter fraud has been committed, every single ballot, provisional or otherwise, needs to be examined with a fine-toothed comb. Especially when the race comes down to 42 votes.
They found ballot boxes from Democratic counties in Florida in the swamp after the 2000 election and they found ballot boxes from Democratic counties in Florida in the 2004 election which were severely waterlogged even though there hadn’t been any rain. Republicans carried out numerous voter suppression tactics nation-wide, including using felons lists, where if your name sounds similar to that of a convicted felon you’re not allowed to vote. In some places in the south, African-American voters were flat-out denied their right to vote. In heavily Democratic counties where they expected an extremely high turnout to vote, they made sure there were less voting machines than in 2000 so that everyone would have to stand in a line for upwards of 8-10 hours before they could vote. They were still voting at 3 AM CST in Ohio because of this. Report after report of Republicans throwing away votes which are likely to go to Democrats has been pouring in, including reports of Republicans throwing away provisional ballots without verifying their validity because they know that most provisional ballots favor the Democratic candidate. The major local news media reported this story but did not elaborate on it and did not make a big deal of it because Karl Rove has a proverbial gun to their heads, and I have pointed this out repeatedly. Do you refuse to believe that Republicans are committing voter fraud on a massive scale because you do not bother to inform yourself or is it because you know it’s happening but you think it’s okay because it’s Republicans doing it? Everyone knows the Republicans stole the 2000 election, so why is it so hard for you to comprehend that they stole the 2004 election? Are you unaware that the White House has dispatched its lawyers to back up Rossi in this recount debacle? Why would you believe that someone backed by the Republicans in Washington DC wouldn’t try to steal an election? He’s so heavily backed by the White House that it looks like Karl Rove himself created Rossi’s commercials. They have the same exact attitude as Bush’s commercials.
What is it with you neo-cons and projection? Apparently you sit down and write down every messed up thing about yourselves and then accuse Democrats of being that way so that if anyone points out your faults you can say, “Nuh uh! I called you that first!” You asked me to site my source so I did. Every local news media source reported that the issue of more votes than registered voters was brought to the attention of Sam Reed by the Gregoire campaign and Sam Reed refused to investigate the claims, saying that it’s normal to have more votes than registered voters and that it’s normal and acceptable to throw away provisional ballots without verifying their validity. Then you said that I didn’t even address the subject. Meanwhile, I have pointed out how Republicans have committed voter fraud by intentionally turning the issue of a paper trail into a partisan issue and blocking Democrats’ efforts to instate a paper trail. A proper manual recount in the two counties in Washington state which use electronic voting machines is impossible because of these deliberate efforts. You have not addressed the issue, presented any evidence or even conjecture or speculation to disprove it, and simply call it ludicrous. Why is it ludicrous? Did it not happen? Did Howard Dean not start the movement to instate a paper trail and did Republicans not turn the issue into a partisan issue and block the effort? And does the fact that we cannot perform a recount in those counties not cause a manual recount to be completely inaccurate? The Republicans don’t have a crystal ball, they knew that they were going to steal the election. I knew they were going to do that since 2000, but it became extremely obvious in 2002 when they stole every election possible, including the Governor’s race in Georgia, where they had not elected a Republican governor since the end of the civil war, yet the Republican candidate won, which flew in the face of every single poll conducted before the election.
Also, you have not sited a single source regarding there being more votes cast than registered voters or Republicans throwing away provisional ballots. I pointed out that every single local news media organization reported that the Gregoire campaign brought these issues to the attention of Sam Reed, Secretary of State, and instead of investigating the reports like it’s his job to do, he simply stated that these things are normal for an election and all the issues have been addressed. He made these statements right after the Gregoire campaign stated that they had sent him a letter regarding these issues, which shows that he did not bother to investigate any of the reports, and instead simply dismissed them outright. It’s quite obvious why he has done so. He’s a Republican and the Republican candidate won by 42 votes, so he’s not going to do his job because if he did, Gregoire would become Washington state’s next governor, and he’s more interested in playing partisan politics than he is in doing his job.
Your extreme idiocy and paranoid rantings are pathetic. For the last time, WHO THE HELL IS RUDY? I recently ran across this blog and have not had time to read the archives. Judging from your statements, Rudy must be someone who posts to this blog regularly. Your extremely low IQ and apparent brain damage are quite clear by the fact that you keep accusing me of being someone I’ve never even heard of. You seriously need to take your meds before you become a danger to yourself and/or others. Are you 12 years old or do you simply have the intellectual capacity and maturity level of a 12 year old?
As of 11/30 at 10am, from the PI…
“Reed to certify Rossi as winner of governor’s race
Democrats struggle to find money for a costly hand recount
By CHRIS McGANN
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER CAPITOL CORRESPONDENT
OLYMPIA — Republican Dino Rossi becomes Washington’s governor-elect when Secretary of State Sam Reed certifies the election this morning, and the Democrats have until Friday to demand a costly hand recount — which right now they don’t have the money for.
With only 42 votes separating the candidates and claims of voting irregularities in some counties, Democrat Christine Gregoire vowed to do whatever it takes to make sure every one of the 2.8 million votes is counted a third time.
But as of yesterday, that’s a promise she can’t afford.
A demand for a statewide hand recount would cost at least $700,000 — upfront. “
I am delighted that you have chosen to respond at last to one of the people posting comments on your blog. While the subject of the sex/slave trade is indeed horrendous, I am sure I am not alone in wishing that you would engage and debate with those of us posing hard and difficult questions about the impending EU Constitutioncrisis that is likely to result from a rejection by French and Dutch voters. Surely this is a paramount subject for you – Commissioner for Institutional Relations and Communication – to be addressing. It wont go away, you know. \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
I love your site and find it to be a wonderful resource. Thank you for taking the time to put it all together.
i would not return to the page with the topic you read before,butiwill probably return to the topic i posted a comment to. More comments means more visits and it keeps the blog dynamic. After all blogs are not for authors only
I am delighted that you have chosen to respond at last to one of the people posting comments on your blog. While the subject of the sex/slave trade is indeed horrendous, I am sure I am not alone in wishing that you would engage and debate with those of us posing hard and difficult questions about the impending EU Constitutioncrisis that is likely to result from a rejection by French and Dutch voters. Surely this is a paramount subject for you – Commissioner for Institutional Relations and Communication – to be addressing. It wont go away, you know.
I am delighted that you have chosen to respond at last to one of the people posting comments on your blog. While the subject of the sex/slave trade is indeed horrendous, I am sure I am not alone in wishing that you would engage and debate with those of us posing hard and difficult questions about the impending EU Constitutioncrisis that is likely to result from a rejection by French and Dutch voters. Surely this is a paramount subject for you – Commissioner for Institutional Relations and Communication – to be addressing. It wont go away, you know.
Ive just been letting everything wash over me recently. Pretty much nothing seems worth bothering with. I cant be bothered with anything recently, but I guess it doesnt bother me. I havent gotten anything done for a while. Ive just been staying at home waiting for something to happen. Not that it matters.
Ive just been letting everything wash over me recently. Pretty much nothing seems worth bothering with. I cant be bothered with anything recently, but I guess it doesnt bother me. I havent gotten anything done for a while. Ive just been staying at home waiting for something to happen. Not that it matters.
Ive just been letting everything wash over me recently. Pretty much nothing seems worth bothering with. I cant be bothered with anything recently, but I guess it doesnt bother me. I havent gotten anything done for a while. Ive just been staying at home waiting for something to happen. Not that it matters.
Ive just been letting everything wash over me recently. Pretty much nothing seems worth bothering with. I cant be bothered with anything recently, but I guess it doesnt bother me. I havent gotten anything done for a while. Ive just been staying at home waiting for something to happen. Not that it matters.
I havent gotten much done lately. Ive basically been doing nothing. Its not important. Ive just been sitting around not getting anything done. Pretty much nothing seems worth doing. Eh.
I love your site and find it to be a wonderful resource. Thank you for taking the time to put it all together.
I love your site and find it to be a wonderful resource. Thank you for taking the time to put it all together.
Id split time between the Roberts Nomination and the current investigation into the Plame Case with equal time. Wag the Dog claims have to be coming down the pike, and the serious allegations about potentioally treasonous behavior by the Presidents (and VPs) closest aide are troubling. Dont let it bump that story out.
Id split time between the Roberts Nomination and the current investigation into the Plame Case with equal time. Wag the Dog claims have to be coming down the pike, and the serious allegations about potentioally treasonous behavior by the Presidents (and VPs) closest aide are troubling. Dont let it bump that story out.
Id split time between the Roberts Nomination and the current investigation into the Plame Case with equal time. Wag the Dog claims have to be coming down the pike, and the serious allegations about potentioally treasonous behavior by the Presidents (and VPs) closest aide are troubling. Dont let it bump that story out.
Id split time between the Roberts Nomination and the current investigation into the Plame Case with equal time. Wag the Dog claims have to be coming down the pike, and the serious allegations about potentioally treasonous behavior by the Presidents (and VPs) closest aide are troubling. Dont let it bump that story out.
Have a great trip! Looking forward to some deep thoughts and awesome pictures. See you when you get back
Have a great trip! Looking forward to some deep thoughts and awesome pictures. See you when you get back
Have a great trip! Looking forward to some deep thoughts and awesome pictures. See you when you get back
Have a great trip! Looking forward to some deep thoughts and awesome pictures. See you when you get back
Hi
was serfing net and found your site…Thanks! it is really great! i have bookmarked it! will return often!
Hi
was serfing net and found your site…Thanks! it is really great! i have bookmarked it! will return often!
Ive just been hanging out not getting anything done. I cant be bothered with anything recently, but I guess it doesnt bother me. I havent gotten anything done. My lifes been really dull today, but I dont care. I havent been up to much these days, not that it matters. Ive more or less been doing nothing , but oh well.
Pretty much nothing seems important, but maybe tomorrow. Not much on my mind these days. I havent gotten anything done recently. My mind is like a complete blank. What can I say? Ive just been letting everything pass me by recently.
Not much on my mind worth mentioning. So it goes. Today was a complete loss. I just dont have anything to say recently. My mind is like an empty room. Ive just been letting everything pass me by lately.
Not much on my mind worth mentioning. So it goes. Today was a complete loss. I just dont have anything to say recently. My mind is like an empty room. Ive just been letting everything pass me by lately.
Not much on my mind worth mentioning. So it goes. Today was a complete loss. I just dont have anything to say recently. My mind is like an empty room. Ive just been letting everything pass me by lately.
Not much on my mind worth mentioning. So it goes. Today was a complete loss. I just dont have anything to say recently. My mind is like an empty room. Ive just been letting everything pass me by lately.