I was going to cross-post this, but it’s a bit long. Over at EffU, I’ve found a local hero who recently saved us all from impending peril.
Can’t Bring Yourself to Type the Word “Ass”?
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This exchange between me and Proud Leftist is so good, I am going to post it in every thread on HA from now on. It destroys the Publicans’ stupid talking points – period.
“I’m working really hard to understand how President Bill Clinton’s actions act as justifcation for the righties. Read this fuckwads.
If your lame ass argument is that Bill Clinton was a bad President – which is what you say – and if your argument now is that the AWOL coward GW Bush is in someway comparable to Bill Clinton, what you are actually saying is that GW Bush is NO BETTER THAN CLINTON.
Does it hurt to be that stupid? I really want to know.
proud leftist says:
RES @ 18
You’ve hit it on the nose. The rightwing fringefucks consider Clinton to be the personification of evil–indeed, he is the devil incarnate in their twisted little minds. Nonetheless, their justification for all of the Bushites’ sins is, always, “well, Clinton did it, too.” Methinks they never studied logic.”
And what’s better, is that the rightie traitor keeps pointing out that this is true. Thanks MTR. Please keep proving my point for me.
What’s the difference between Jane Fonda and GW Bush? During the war, she wasn’t afraid to go there. HE HE!
More video on TV tonight from Bush family friend Osama. Guess we shouldn’t expect the same Bush regime that took five days to get water to the Superdome to find the guy who was actually behind the 9.11 bombing.
Another right wing failure. Virginia’s Gilmore drops out. One down, nine to go. That wingnut McCain’s probably next.
Two US servicemen died in Iraq. We know none of them was related to Bush. He keeps his kin safe while sending real brave American patriots to die. The Bush family are all cowards. Always have been.
In case anyone is interested, I am trying to fill in for Roger since he’s gone.
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
The right wing fuckheads are VERY quiet about their hero in LA. The Publican moral majority is neither. Why can’t these sick SOBs keep their dicks in their pants?
Gotta go – MTR’s ugly fat wife wants to suck my dick.
A friend of mine once defined bigotry as people being ignorant of their own ignorance, and I’m amazed at how consistenly that definition holds up under scrutiny.
LEE, THAT IS ONE CREEP-OUT OF A WINGNUT WEB HOVEL.
Well done, Lee. That was some Grade A crazy you were handling there. Remember, always wear eye protection when dealing with that stuff.
Why Do Republicans Hate Sick Kids?
“Child Health Insurance Bill Faces Veto
“By KEVIN FREKING
“Associated Press Writer
“WASHINGTON – The Bush administration said Saturday that senior advisers would recommend the president veto Senate legislation that would substantially increase funds for children’s health insurance. …
“Members of the Senate Finance Committee brokered a bipartisan agreement Friday that would add $35 billion to the program over the next five years. The Bush administration had instead recommend $5 billion.”
Quoted under fair use; for complete story and/or copyright info see http://tinyurl.com/2fzdes
Roger Rabbit Commentary: The Busheviks have plenty of money for blowing arms and legs off Iraqi kids, but plead poverty when it comes to taking care of sick American kids. What’s WRONG with Republicans, anyway?
I have a theory that rationally explains this anomaly: Bush and his senior advisers aren’t Americans. They’re commies who snuck into our country with fake IDs with the goal of subverting our society. They couldn’t do a better job of hurting real Americans if they tried, so my theory is that they’re trying to. Why? Because they’re the ENEMY!!!
This also explains why Bush and his senior advisers are against deporting illegal aliens … BECAUSE THEY’D BE THE FIRST TO GO!!! Fucking commie foreigners, that’s why they are. Our government has been taken over by a foreign power. I’m not exactly sure which one, but this has KGB fingerprints all over it, if you ask me.
Hey all you global warming-denying trollfucks … is it COLD ENOUGH for ya, yet?!! How do ya’ll like this ICE AGE we’re having?!!!
@11
Well done, Lee. That was some Grade A crazy you were handling there. Remember, always wear eye protection when dealing with that stuff.
Safety first. How much you wanna bet the guy was a Sikh?
Oh. My. God.
Imagine if Ms. Tracy was packing heat… it would be open season on bearded men carrying cell phones.
@15
Imagine if Ms. Tracy was packing heat
I’m trying very hard not to.
A perfect illustration of why all wingnuts should be locked up in mental institutions for public safety reasons.
@6 It’s great to know your flank is covered when circumstances require you, however briefly, to avert your gaze away from the enemy position. A feeling you’d never get if you had to share a foxhole with a Republican … because, hell, Republicans ARE the enemy!
I’ve been personally checking out how much socialism they have in eastern Washington. A lot!!! Nearly everything they have over there is paid for by taxpayers who live somewhere else. Funny how things work. The more Republican people are, the more socialism they demand from government! Humans are strange critters.
Frankly, I think all the Republican farmers who voted for Dino Rossi are a bunch of fucking commies.
They get free water from the socialist Bureau of Reclamation, cheap electricity from the socialist Bonneville Power Administration, their roads are built with socialist gas taxes collected in King County, and even their volunteer-fireman pensions are provided by the socialist government in Olympia! The only thing these freeloaders don’t get from socialist government programs is the cheap labor that picks their fruits and vegetables — they get that from Mexico. And boy are they pissed about the fence being built by yet another socialist government program to keep out the illegals! Bye-bye cheap farm labor!
God forbid that Republican farmers should have to pay American wages to get American citizens to work on American farms …
16, 17 I hope Ms. Tracy IS packing heat! We don’t have to worry about her hitting anything, and the legal justification it creates might come in handy.
Hmmm … I’ve been away for a few days, and missed some interesting topics. I wonder if Lou Guzzo has any fucking idea what our foreign aid actually buys? Hint: Look up the percentage of total U.S. foreign aid spending that goes to Israel, and ask yourself what the Israelis buy with our money.
It’s probably just as well for Stefan that serial killers don’t have to register by party in our state.
Click here for photo of Republican ex-voter. http://mayhem44.tripod.com/bundypix.html
I’m surprised the thread on “wingnut accomplishments” overlooked Dubya’s greatest contribution to U.S. politics: Thanks to his single-handed efforts the American public will never, ever take the Republican Party seriously ever again.
After being away all week, I see that HA’s new software is still fucked up. I’m still having difficulty posting comments, and I’m still getting this when I click on links:
“Sorry, no posts matched your criteria.”
My Stocks Work Hard!
I’m sure Republicans who constantly mouth the virtues of hard work (while doing no work themselves) will appreciate this.
Upon returning home from my inspection tour of eastern Washington produce farms, I noticed that I made several thousand dollars in the stock market last week!
The stock market is a great idea: Take money from capitalists and give it to Roger Rabbit! How can you argue against that?
Disclosure notice: All my stock market winnings go directly to the Help Roger Rabbit Live Like A Repubican Fund.
Man it’s hot!!! Don’t get me wrong, I am all for the fight on global warming, as long as it is on a “volunteer” basis and you donks do all the fighting. The soldiers who are in Iraq are all volunteer. We republicans can sit back and laugh while patting each other on the back on how patriotic we are by dissenting. Wear you sun screen. woof woof. hehehehe
Things that scare democrats:
Tax cuts
Stock Market
Non Union Shop
Free Market
Family Values
Profits
Free Speech
2nd Amendment
Patriotic
Nationalism
Strict Constructionists
Rush
Talk Radio
School Choice
Recruiting is up for the military
and last but not least
SUMMER.
woof woof.
Roger Rabbit says:
Hey all you global warming-denying trollfucks … is it COLD ENOUGH for ya, yet?!! How do ya’ll like this ICE AGE we’re having?!!!
07/14/2007 at 11:47 pm
Whoaaa. This can only mean one thing. Its SUMMER!! HEHEHEHE
Roger Rabbit says:
Frankly, I think all the Republican farmers who voted for Dino Rossi are a bunch of fucking commies.
Yeah, but what about Republican dogs in King County who never got to vote. I mean if democrat dead people got to vote surely we should? Right. You dems dont have a fair bone in your body. Geeeesh Woof woof.
Roger Rabbit says:
Frankly, I think all the Republican farmers who voted for Dino Rossi are a bunch of fucking commies.
Yeah, but what about Republican dogs in King County who never got to vote. I mean if democrat dead people got to vote surely we should? Right. You dems dont have a fair bone in your body. Geeesh Woof woof.
I would like all you rightwing cheerleaders for war in Iraq to read this article and then decide whether it’s worth it. Whatever “it” is. Do you even know what you’re asking our soldiers to suffer and die for?
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/b.....2009990002
More Bad News For Republicans
“WASHINGTON — Democrats in the House and Senate have overwhelmingly raised more campaign funds than their Republican counterparts in the past three months. …
“A snapshot of the disparity between the two parties’ fundraising, which has also played out in the presidential race, was underscored by the figures for the month of June. The Democratic senatorial committee raised $8.6 million, compared with $3.3 million by the Republican committee.
“As Democrats seek to expand their narrow majority in the Senate, the party committee far exceeds the amount of money Republicans have at their disposal, reporting a cash-on-hand balance of $20.4 million with a debt of $4.5 million. The National Republican Senatorial Committee has reported a cash balance of $5.5 million with no debt.”
Quoted under Fair Use; for complete story and/or copyright info see http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....nds15.html
Roger Rabbit Commentary: While most of the public focuses on the presidential race, there will also be an election in 2008 for all House seats and third of the Senate seats, and things are shaping up for a GOP debacle even worse than last year’s.
For starters, Republicans have twice as many Senate seats on the 2008 ballot as Democrats, which automatically means they are at greater risk of losing seats. In fact, if you closely analyze the situation, a Democratic gain of 4 to 6 more Senate seats appears probable.
It’s harder to predict the outcome of 435 House races, but with the country thoroughly disaffected with the GOP’s leadership of the last 12 years, GOP gains in the House are unlikely and it’s very possible that Democrats will pick up additional seats in numbers comparable to 2006 with little or no loss from their side of the aisle.
The tepid GOP fundraising for the upcoming congressional campaigns underscores the fundamental weakness of the GOP position going into 2008.
So, our resident trollfucks can parrot Congress’ low approval ratings all they want. The grim truth for the wingers is that the public is giving Congress low marks for NOT BEING TOUGH ENOUGH on the Republicans who have screwed up virtually everything they’ve touched — from Katrina relief to product safety to Iraq. Seen in that light, Congress’ dismal ratings are not good news for Republicans or those who support Republicans.
Chinese Hypocrisy
“China flags U.S. meat, alleging contamination
“By Ariana Eunjung Cha and Renae Merle
“The Washington Post
“SHANGHAI, China — China announced Saturday that it was blocking imports of some U.S. processed meat that showed signs of contamination, turning the tables on critics who in recent months have questioned the safety of Chinese exports and making good on a warning that it would apply greater scrutiny to food shipments entering its borders. … In recent weeks, Beijing has rejected a number of other U.S. products at its ports of entry ….”
Quoted under Fair Use; for complete story and/or copyright info see http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....ina15.html
Roger Rabbit Commentary: Enough is enough: Ban Chinese imports, period! Why does a Republican administration, and why do Republican businessmen, do business with these commie fuckers anyway? Isn’t trading with the enemy treason?
So here’s the deal: China sells us tainted pet food, human food, toothpaste, vitamins, etc. If we block imports of this crap, they retaliate. Why do we give these gangsters the time of day? We need a new administration in this country. Republicans can’t be trusted.
Here’s one of the Bush regime’s crack units out looking for Bush family friend, Osama bin Laden…
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.....ource=mypi
WINGNUTS:
YOU GUYS ARE LOSING SO BAD. TIME FOR A CRUISE ON THE SHIP OF FOOLS.
I lie on the beach with Hillary-Ann, a chatty, scatty 35-year-old Californian designer. As she explains the perils of Republican dating, my mind drifts, watching the gentle tide. When I hear her say, ” Of course, we need to execute some of these people,” I wake up. Who do we need to execute? She runs her fingers through the sand lazily. “A few of these prominent liberals who are trying to demoralise the country,” she says. “Just take a couple of these anti-war people off to the gas chamber for treason to show, if you try to bring down America at a time of war, that’s what you’ll get.” She squints at the sun and smiles. ” Then things’ll change.”
NOTICE THAT “HILLARY-ANN” IS “SCATTY” AS WELL AS “CHATTY”. SHE CAN’T SAY A SINGLE SENTENCE WITH SOME REFERENCE TO EXCREMENT. WORSHIPS COULTER I BET.
MISERABLE, AMERICA-HATING TRAITORS.
How about some sympathy for the frightened lady?
Lee’s post is as intolerant of the lady as she is of the middle eastern man. The good news is that by and large we have had few episodes of terrorism in the US and as gew incidents of people restricting the rights of muslims. More at Seattlejew
Hey all you right wing chickenshit, chickenhawks. Latest Gallup poll says a SUPERMAJORITY of Americans think that Monkeyface was wrong to take us into Iraq. Three things…
1) What do you think that means for your prospects in 08? HE HE!
2) How’s it feel to be so faaaaaar right you’re in the SUPERMINORITY? HE HE!
3) If you’re one of the twisted fucking inbred fools who thinks Iraq was a good idea, how come you or your kids aren’t over there fighting right now? HA HA!
RES:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.....ess14.html
“While the public’s approval of Congress has dropped 11 points since May, the percentage of Democrats who are turning up their noses at Congress — like Lambirth — nearly doubled. Among Republicans, though, not so much.
Approval among Democrats fell 21 points, from 48 percent in May to 27 percent.”
Looks like you Dem’s are doing well in congress too. At a drop like that, you will have a negative rating of by labor day.
SeattleJew @ 42
“How about some sympathy for the frightened lady?”
I have sympathy for her ignorance. Otherwise I have nothing but contempt and disdain for the fact that she has allowed herself to be terrorized for political gain by BushCheneyCo.
“Lee’s post is as intolerant of the lady as she is of the middle eastern man.”
Perhaps, but his intolerance is to her bigotry. And the worse kind of bigotry: Ignorant, Wingnut bigotry.
When it comes down to it, groups like the KKK are motivated by the same things—their ignorance and fear translates into bigotry and hatred. But now we have our government enabling this kind if thing through fear-mongering for reasons of political gain.
I consider it (first) my duty as a human being, and (second) my patriotic duty to be intolerant to bigotry.
WOW@44
Yep, the dem’s screwed up again by not immediately starting an impeachment trial of President Cheney as soon as they got in, and now they are paying for it.
But cheer up, there is 18 more months to do it.
How about some sympathy for the frightened lady?
Lee’s post is as intolerant of the lady as she is of the middle eastern man.
Normally, I’d agree. But this woman is a paranoid, disgusting, fascist thug, and crap like that just shouldn’t be tolerated in a reasonable society. The fact that she wraps herself up in the flag in the middle of her tirade makes it worse.
SJ @ 42
You ask, in your blog post, about finding the proper “balance.” How afraid should we be? How about not afraid at all? We’re talking about terrorists. The instant we let fear dictate how we respond to them, they’ve won.
And, that’s the problem with Ms. Tracy. There were a number of ways to interpret the actions of the man she found suspicious. The interpretation she consciously chose is the one that was dictated by fear. Taking her to task for her ignorant bigotry is not an overreaction, because, frankly, I hate seeing terrorists win this war.
By the way, last night, comments were open on her blog. I’d made a comment, and I recall one from Daryll. Now you have to register in order to leave comments, and mine says that my comment is awaiting moderation. Not only is she an ignorant bigot, she seems to be having some difficulty accepting criticism for her ignorant bigotry.
The irony is that her post concludes with picture of an ostrich, head firmly ensconced in the sand, and a caption asking if this is the new American National bird. Yup. It sure as hell is.
By the way, Daryll, the phrase “ignorant wingnut bigotry” is redundant.
Things that scare democrats:
Tax cuts / Stock Market / Non Union Shop / Free Market / Family Values / Profits / Free Speech / 2nd Amendment / Patriotic / Nationalism / Strict Constructionists / Rush / Talk Radio / School Choice / Recruiting is up for the military / and last but not least / SUMMER.
woof woof.
Yeah, most Republicans would probably have to identify with dogs at this point, if only for their unflappable devotion to their masters.
–
Things that scare Republicans:
Government funding anything but the military. Oh, and their welfare checks.
Any proof that the “invisible hand of the market” is a sham.
Any sorts of protections for workers or consumers. Until they get injured and want to sue, of course!
Any family’s values other than their own.
Personal responsibility, but only when it comes to other people. Especially “those” people.
Opinions from anywhere else but talk radio and Fox “News”
The environment. Especially the parts that cannot be shot, bulldozed, sold, or dumped into.
For the numerous chickenhawk Republicans, the actual *thought* of *really* going to war. Some fantasy about five guys packed in a Honda taking photos doesn’t count.
Compassion for anyone but themselves.
Free thought.
Consistency between words and actions.
The First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, Eighth, Fourteenth, Fifteenth, Sixteenth, Nineteenth, Twenty-Second, Twenty-Fourth and Twenty-Sixth Amendments.
Don Joe @ 48,
“Now you have to register in order to leave comments, and mine says that my comment is awaiting moderation.”
Yep…I posted my comment in Lee’s comment thread.
If you were on a road, less traveled( 2 lane-15 mph curves), and you see 5 people in a Honda car, they all get out of car, and point at the dam that is holding back a large river.
They start snapping pictures of the Dam. They don’t pose in the forefront and take turns getting their pic’s taken, they only shoot pics of the dam.
They take as many photo’s from different angles that is feasable from their point of view.
They get back into car, all five of them, and drive off.
Sounds like a nice lil adventure, don’t you think?
The 5 people were all wearing turbins, and of arab nationality. Five grown men in a Honda car is a bit of a squeeze, and they just didn’t act like “touristy” type, considering they didn’t take one pic of themselves.
Most tourist include themselves in a photo, and the dam on Hwy 7 north of Elbe is only visable from that one location, and that one pullout.
So maybe they were on a joyride, maybe they weren’t.
I don’t consider the observation as being paranoid, a bigot, a racist, or brainwashed by our goverment.
But of course the leftist posters here will consider it so. Tough Shit, I live in this country too. I don’t want to relive what happened on 9/11.
Hey democrats/liberals/socialists, how does it feel to be played by your democrat leaders. They keep talking about impeaching the president but yet it’s still not on the table. Unlike you, your leaders know Bush has done nothing to be impeached about and that’s why they have done nothing in their leadership, except rename a bunch of post offices. Your democrat/liberal/socialist leaders know better than to even try and bring up the fairness doctrine for fear their control of their minions would evaporate when opposing viewpoints are heard on CBS, ABC, NBC, NPR, etc. etc.
P.S. Keep donating to your elected leaders for not representing you. Don’t leave it to chance, prove your stupidity!!
Chris,
In Islamic culture, there’s a taboo against taking pictures of yourself and friends. At one point, it was considered a violation of Islamic law, though most scholars now agree that it doesn’t fall in the same category that strictly forbids statues and painted images (activities that were closely associated with idolatry during Muhammad’s time). By the way, one of the reasons most Muslims in general, and al-Qaeda in particular, weren’t all that happy with Saddam Hussein was due to the fact that he plastered images of himself all over the place.
So, five adults stuffed into a Honda probably just means that they’re poor, and not taking pictures of themselves probably means that they’re just Muslims and not terrorists.
WINGNUT @ 52
THE DEMS MADE A POLITICAL CALCULATION. THEY’RE WELL MEANING BUT MOST PROBABLY MISTAKEN.
AS CONSERVATIVE BRUCE FEIN SAID FRIDAY NIGHT ON BILL MOYERS JOURNAL, THE DEMS LACK THE STATESMANSHIP TO DO THE RIGHT THING AND HOLD BUSH ACCOUNTABLE FOR HIS CRIMES. HE MIGHT BE RIGHT.
AND YES FEIN WHO WRITES FOR THE MOONIE TIMES AND WORKED IN REAGAN’S JUSTICE DEPT AND THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION AND AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE THINKS BUSH’S CRIMES ARE MORE WORRISOME THAN ANYTHING CLINTON DID.
THE FOUNDERS ENVISIONED IMPEACHMENT AS A CHECK ON THE EXECUTIVE TO PREVENT THEM FROM OVERREACHING ON THINGS LIKE COMMUTING THE SENTENCES OF THEIR LACKEYS, E.G. SCOOTER LIBBY.
YEP, THE FOUNDERS EVEN DISCUSSED THAT VERY THING AT THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION.
NIXON DID NOT ONCE STAND IN THE WAY OF JOHN DEAN TESTIFYING BEFORE CONGRESS. IT WOULD BE UNTHINKABLE. YET YOUR FAVORITE PRESIDENT THOUGHT NOTHING OF FORBIDDING HARRIET MIERS (HIS DEAN) TO COMPLY WITH A CONGRESSIONAL SUBPOENA.
ANOTHER LACKEY, SARA TAYLOR, SAID SHE SWORE AN OATH TO DEFEND THE “PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES”. OOPS. SHE WAS HAVING A FASCIST MOMENT. IT’S TO DEFENDING THE CONSTITUTION SHE WAS SUPPOSED TO SWEAR AN OATH TO.
@ 51,
“Democrats/Liberals/Socialists…”
Ah, yes, nothing like an intelligent lead-in. Can’t you twits engage an argument without first constructing an opponent made of straw?
That’s a rhetorical question. We know the answer: no, you can’t. It’s the only way you clowns can actually win an argument.
By the way, we generally give our representatives one term to get things right before we boot them out of office. We generally don’t vote for the same idiot twice even if that idiot is a member of our party.
You folks, however, have this nasty habit of re-electing dipshits. Of all the two-term presidents after FDR, only one finished his second term with a higher approval rating than he had when he first took office. Want to guess which one?
Hey democrats/liberals/socialists, how does it feel to be played by your democrat leaders. They keep talking about impeaching the president but yet it’s still not on the table. Unlike you, your leaders know Bush has done nothing to be impeached about and that’s why they have done nothing in their leadership, except rename a bunch of post offices.
Well, I’d agree that the Democrats in Congress don’t really have game right about now.
But let’s see… nearest I can figure, abortion is still legal, Osama bin Laden is still at large, the government has grown since Bush has been in office, the US has propped up plenty of dictatorships in our bid to “spread democracy”, we’ve experienced the biggest attack on the US since Pearl Harbor on a Republican’s watch, our international moral standing has degraded even further, and the Republican party can’t seem to get its act together on a coherent stance on immigration. Great job with fulfilling *mainstream* Republican Party goals, eh?
If you’re looking for leadership that’s ineffectual at best, criminally negligent at worst, I don’t think that you just want to be looking at those people with the D’s after their names.
(Cue the “blame Clinton” rant, right?)
P.S. Keep donating to your elected leaders for not representing you. Don’t leave it to chance, prove your stupidity!!
One thing that I will give to some racist Republicans is that they’re not hypocritical. Many are quite willing to withdraw funding from the Party when talk of immigration reform in Congress doesn’t automatically lead into how fast Mexicans can be deported.
.44
Once again, we have a Publican pervert saying “We’re no worse than Dems.” Wow, aren’t you proud? I thought you assholes were going to “clean” up government?
And every poll I read shows the only negatives against Dems are there unwillingness to stop Bush’s civil war. They’ll come around on that leaving you in the SUPERMINORITY where you belong.
@51:
If you were on a road, less traveled( 2 lane-15 mph curves), and you see 5 people in a Honda car, they all get out of car, and point at the dam that is holding back a large river.
They start snapping pictures of the Dam. They don’t pose in the forefront and take turns getting their pic’s taken, they only shoot pics of the dam.
They take as many photo’s from different angles that is feasable from their point of view.
They get back into car, all five of them, and drive off.
Sounds like a nice lil adventure, don’t you think?
–
Fun! Let’s all go! I’ll bring along some of my friends, and we can see who’ll get reported first.
–
The 5 people were all wearing turbins, and of arab nationality. Five grown men in a Honda car is a bit of a squeeze, and they just didn’t act like “touristy” type, considering they didn’t take one pic of themselves.
Most tourist include themselves in a photo, and the dam on Hwy 7 north of Elbe is only visable from that one location, and that one pullout.
So maybe they were on a joyride, maybe they weren’t.
–
(The dramatic music is supposed to come up here, right?)
Let’s see. There’s a pullout, and you’re saying that the dam is only visible from this location. So what are you, the tourist police?
The truth is, you just don’t know. Were they civil engineers? Dam aficionados? Perhaps they just enjoyed the view. When we get to the point, though, when we are so paranoid that we start reporting on all of the activities of the people around us, how exactly is that a free society? Do you tend to report your ethnic-looking neighbors to the police on a regular basis for watering their lawn or having parties?
–
I don’t consider the observation as being paranoid, a bigot, a racist, or brainwashed by our goverment.
But of course the leftist posters here will consider it so. Tough Shit, I live in this country too. I don’t want to relive what happened on 9/11.
Reporting that someone (anyone!) that you haven’t seen before purchased a pallet of fertilizer from your store is not paranoid. Reporting that people that don’t own a farm or live in the country want to purchase a cropduster is not paranoid. Reporting that a company or individual is buying a disproportionate amount of radioactive material is not paranoid.
But taking *pictures*? Please. Hate to tell you, but you *are* racist, and paranoid, and a bigot. And the opinions you’ve expressed here effectively trample on what makes this country great. Or, at least, what I thought made it great, as people like you are starting to make me think that I’m wrong about our country.
@45 Darryl
Surely there is a distinction between the lady who reports her fears to the guard and the KKK or Islamoterrorist who actis on her fears to terrorize others?
What would you do (other than tsk tsk) about this lady? Yell at here? Protest against her fear?
Moreover, there is basis for her fear .. even if it is overdone. Are you seriously telling me that YOU would not be hesitant if you saw a group of folks in a corner of a mall, with backpacks, reading the Koran? Would you just pass by? Supose the group broke up and you noted them leaving their packs in different parts of the mall?
The simple fact is that there is (some) reason to fear. What is wrong is over-reaction. The same goes the other way. This lady was frightened. That is sad. But the response that makes sense, at least to me, is to do all we can to reassure her.
Chris
“I don’t consider the observation as being paranoid, a bigot, a racist, or brainwashed by our goverment.”
You sound like a fine, upstanding new recruit for the KKK.
“But of course the leftist posters here will consider it so. Tough Shit, I live in this country too. I don’t want to relive what happened on 9/11.”
Guess what, dipshit…freedom isn’t risk-free. You want absolute security find yourself a police state and leave our Democracy alone.
Also, stay off the highways, as there is a 9/11 every month on the roads of America. Do you tolerate Bush’s invasion of Iraq? Compared to 9/11, it has been far more deadly and injurious to American soldiers and contractors, has cost orders of magnitude more in dollars, and, of course, has resulted in the premature deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians.
Speaking of Fear
Darryl, there is gathering of men against violence, led by Robert Jeffries of New Hope Baptist Chirch. This Thursday night at 7. The entire community is invited. It would be a real strike against irrational fear if more than just SeattleJew and the AA community attended. I have would relaly appreciate some notice of it as a posted item here. Details are at SeattleJew
@48 not afraid at all?
Sorry, no. There is real reason to be afraid. There are real problems with what is taught today in mosques .. as polls show. There are even more reasons to be concerned about the beleifs and actions of folks who come here from countries where islamofascism is dominant.
Let me suggest a positive action. If you were at the SJ blog, you must have read abut the Vigil for peace this Thursday. The separation of the African descended and other communities of Seattle is a very real example of misguided fear. Do something,.come light a candle!
@53 Don Joe
Pictures of people are certainly accepted and normal in Islamic countries. Where do you get this stuff?
What si wrong about showing concern? What would be wrong with going over and saying hello and asking what they are doing?
@51 Why the fuck would anyone bother to drive up some curvy 15 mph road to take photos of a dam when all they have to do is make a 5-second internet search?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi.....ee_Dam.jpg
There ya go — a nice aerial shot of Bonneville’s flagship dam and powerhouse!
Now explain to me how 5 guys can take out a couple of cubic miles of concrete simply because they wear turbans (sic; not “turbins,” which is wingnut spelling) and have a photo.
God, please spare us from these tiresome wingnut idiots — make them all sterile so they can’t reproduce, or something.
SeattleJew @ 59
“Surely there is a distinction between the lady who reports her fears to the guard and the KKK….”
I wasn’t basing my criticism on simply her reporting. It was her reasoning, her self-acknowledged profiling, and her idiotic (extremist) interpretations of ordinary actions.
“What would you do (other than tsk tsk) about this lady? Yell at here? Protest against her fear?”
Personally, I enjoy ridiculing people who are “blinded by terror.” As a larger sociopolitical issue, I prefer better education. The stereotypes that many Americans hold about American Muslims are as ill-informed and, in many cases, more outrageous than the “all Jews are moneygrubbers,” “all Poles are stupid,” and “black men are stealing our white women” stereotypes.
“Moreover, there is basis for her fear .. even if it is overdone.”
I disagree. She is far more likely to be the victim of non-transport accidents (21 deaths per 100,000 people), transportation accidents (16 per 100,000), suicide (10.8 per 100,000) and non-terrorism-related homicide (3.7 per 100,000). The risk of death from terrorism in the U.S. is vanishingly small.
“Are you seriously telling me that YOU would not be hesitant if you saw a group of folks in a corner of a mall, with backpacks, reading the Koran? Would you just pass by? Supose the group broke up and you noted them leaving their packs in different parts of the mall?”
Oh, Pullleeeese. Such a thing ain’t going to happen. I am far, far more likely to be confronted by a gun wielding lunatic on a university campus or a shopping mall.
“The simple fact is that there is (some) reason to fear.”
Sure…but the biggest reason to fear is ignorance. Ignorance leads to irrational fears that are out of proportion to any real underlying risk. The other major reason for fear is the successful use of fear as a political tool by Republicans.
“What is wrong is over-reaction.”
Indeed…that is why I respond to such overreaction. Not responding sharply to such bullshit ultimately legitimizes xenophobia, bigotry, religious intolerance, the suppression of people’s freedom of expression and religion and other civil rights—essentially, behaviors that make people with sociocultural or genetic differences feel oppressed in our society.
“The same goes the other way. This lady was frightened. That is sad. But the response that makes sense, at least to me, is to do all we can to reassure her.”
I tend to view “reassurance” as a good strategy to use with children. But, to each his/her own. Feel free to reassure her, if you think it will do her any good.
BTW ..
“turbans” are not very common as head gear amongst Arabs. Also, why a Honda? Now if they were driving a Caddy!
Hows about this one. You are in a public place, say Glasgow Airport. You see three burkha clad women get out of a Caddy. Each is carrying a large suitcase (on wheels). They disperse to three p-arts of the airport. All three then go to seperate lady’s rooms?
This sort of not picking over what should set off concern is foolish. The lady in the courtroom, hopefully, was overly concerned. It sounds to me as if the guards and cop did a good job of dealing with her. That is pretty good.
SeattleJew @ 62
“There are real problems with what is taught today in mosques..”
Not among American Muslims. American Muslims are better educated and slightly wealthier than non-Muslim Americans. They are politically moderate—a decade ago they tended to be more associated with the Republican party. Not surprisingly, they have abandoned the G.O.P. in recent years. Under 1% call themselves Salafi Muslims (which is what I believe you mean by the somewhat derogatory term “Wahabism”).
“as polls show.”
And what poll(s) do you refer to?
“There are even more reasons to be concerned about the beleifs and actions of folks who come here from countries where islamofascism is dominant.”
I hate to break it to you, but there are no countries where “islamofascism is dominant.” The term “islamofacism” is pretty meaningless, except as a wingnut political tool.
As you must be aware, SeattleJew, Islam expressly forbids killing of innocent people. Almost every Muslim will tell you in no uncertain terms that people who kill innocent people in the name of Islam have perverted the religion beyond recognition. The circumstances where Islam supports violence are largely confined to self-defense under oppression—even there, restrictions on killing innocent people remain. So let’s cut the bullshit about the “fundamentally violent nature of Islam.” Such statements are born out of ignorance and do a disservice to everyone (e.g. Ms. Tracy).
Darryl
Your arguments about relative risk are valid. OTOH, is relative risk the only issue here? How do you feel about the Ward Churchill contretemps? The incidence of anti-tenure actions is, of course, miniscule. So why are so many of us upset?
That said, you and I are both teachers. Woud you use ridicule of a student as a teaching device in class? Surely you do not believe that ridiculing HER would do any good? If the goal is to wipe out the prejudice, as I would hope it would be, then the best thing might be to ridicule the folks who foment such fears.
Better yet, why not invite her to visit the Mosque at Northgate. I have done that myself and was very well received. I’ll bet she has never had such an opportunity.
What I fear is that antagonizing well meaning folks like this will make matters worse. As with he much worse situation in Israel, I really believe the ONLY solution is t insist on people getting to know each other. That is why I dontate what I can to Medecin sand Frontiers and Peace Now.
It is also why I plan to attend the vigil on Thursday? You coming?
@67
There must be a middle ground between ignoring a problem and overstating it.
Since you ask about polls, a good place to start might be the Pew Poll.
Despite the fact that the incidence of fundamentalism, e.g. regarding the Quran as the literal word of the Deity, is as high as 90% in some groups, to the great credit of the US Muslim communoty and of the country as a whole, most of the news is good. However, amongst those under 30, some 26% accept suicide bombing as being sometimes justified.
Similarly, only 40% of American Muslims agree that 9/11 was carried out by Arab muslims.
There is a slo a Freedom House study of the proportion of American mosques using blatant anti-semitic materials distributed by the Wahabes. The numbers are high. Our own campus recently exhibited a poster (in the Burke) claiming that the Palestinains were the true Cannani.
As to your claim that Islam is a religion of obligate peace, that is such utter nonsense. Islam is not worse that Christianity but it is a religion that has glorified conquest. If you want to denie that please tell me where I can find the original cultures of the Sassynids, Northern Indians, Coptic Christinas, Yemeni Jews, not to mention indigenous cultures of a lot of Africa. Imperialism under the scimitar is no nicer than under the cross or the hammer and sickle.
As to current examples of Islamofascism .. that is of islamic state governance, Iran, Parts of Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Hamas, Hezbollah, Pakistan … are these enough?
Darryl
“fundamentally violent nature of Islam.” is YOUR quote not mine. Islam is not any more or less intrinsically violent than any other movement that claims to be sole truth and to have the right to impose that truth on others. Communism, Christianity, Facsism, Anglo-American imperialism come to mind.
Does that make it better than any other ‘ism? The idea that Islam is beign is as absurd as is the idea that it is pacifist. The Mullahs of Iran are as serious about islamofascism .. or whatever term you wish to use for a fusion og the state, the economy and islamic rule. as were the Communists. Little kids growing up in camps reading the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as tre history are as frightening to me as little kids in the Hitler Jugend or Young Pioneers or whatever the Aryanh nation here calls its variation on this theme.
Again, the answer seems to me to be spreading the “gospel” of Gandhi, Jefferson, King, Marx, and Chavez … even when that gospel conflicts with fundamentalist religious beliefs imposed by the State.
SJ @ 62 and 63
First, by all means, light your candles. I prefer to send my daughter to a school that’s attended by students from 27 different countries. I invite people from different cultures into my home, and chat with them over dinner. Your implication that I “do something” is both inaccurate and insulting. The correct thing for you to do, at this point, is to apologize for the assumptions you’ve made about me.
Second, I’m not making this up about photography. Google for “Shariah photography.” The taboo is real, though, as I said, it’s become a bit more relaxed recently. As a culture, Islam isn’t all that big on taking pictures of people.
Lastly, do you really think there’s a real reason to be afraid of terrorists? I don’t. On a daily basis, I stand a far greater chance of being maimed or killed by a dozen different things as opposed to being killed by a terrorists. There is nothing to fear. By giving in to fear, we, essentially, give them what they want. That’s what terrorism is.
You make this false equation between refusing to fear terrorists and doing nothing about terrorism. By all means, we should address terrorism, and that war is primarily a war of ideas. When your primary means of dealing with terrorism is through suspicion of people because they resemble, in your mind, some terrorists, then the terrorists have won.
And let’s take this one head-on:
I’ve had an Iranian staying in my home for the past three years. Just this month, he’s been able to get enough on is own two feet to be able to rent an apartment for himself.
Want to know why he’s here? Persecution. The vast, and I mean vast, majority of people who leave places like Iran, do so because they cannot live freely in the land of their birth. They leave behind friends, family and often everything but the clothes on their backs.
There is no reason to be any more concerned about the beliefs and actions of people who come here from the middle-east than there is reason to be concerned the behavior and beliefs of some ex-military, right wing nut cases who might blow up a truck loaded with fertilizer in some downtown area.
@71 Dan
1. No, I never accused you or anyone here of doing nothing. Sorry if that came across. I do happen to know about Dr. Jeffries and would hope others here would see this as a chance to POSITIVELY address some of the issues in this thread. If you have the time come, say hello too! I’ll be the guy with a camera and a kippah!
2. I am curious which school you mean. The only one I know of that fiys the bill was founded here in Seattle by friends of mine. Are you referring to the Northwest School?
3. I know you are not making it up about photography, but you are greatly exaggerating it. There have been traditons in Islamic countries against human depiction. Some feel that the marvelous tradition of calligarphic decoration of Mosques is a result of that tradition. OTOH, the idea that Muslims don’t use cameras today or won’t be pictured is as silly as some other islamic myths.
Some years ago I happened to discover a Russina trawler in Quincy bay, near our Nuke cruiser building Quincy boat yard. Guess what. I reported her t the Coasties? FWIW, I routinely use my cell phone to report bad driving to the cops and turn in people who park in front on the fire hydrant in front of my house.
My bottom line is that I think it is silly to obseess over this woman’s concerns and worse to ridicule her. Allt he latter does is polarize people.
As to a false equation pardonnez moi I don’t think I have done any such thing. IMHO, neither the left nor the right is acting very smart on this issue. Overstating the problem, esp confusing Baathism with el Quaeda, was S-T-U-P-I-D. Nor encouraging Americans to learn to speak Arabic and read the Quran is S-T-U-P-I-D. Not taking an even handed approach toward our own religgous extremists is S-T-U-P-I-D.
But, we have too many episodes in history where the know nothing approach has led to disasters that might have been averted by ealry, thoughtful action. You want some examples (note they ar eboth liberal and conservative):
Appeasing Hitler
Ignoring Goldwater
The Great Collapse of the Seattle Viaduct in 2012
Rome’s hiring of the Visigoths
America’s outrsourcing of its engineering
American dependendce on foreign energy (ignoring Jimmy Carter)
The Duwamish acceptance of the Boston settlers
McCartyism
This sword has two edges.
I suppose I may be guilty of the same thing here by making too much of Lee’s post. I guess what I would like to see amongst the Seattle liberal community is a more proactive effort like that I remember form the liberal community of my youth (60s).
Be good,
Let’s be clear folks – Islamofascism is a word made up by Faux News and the Bush regime – then repeated like a montra by the inbred, mindless idiots that worship at the pulpit of Limpdick Limbaugh and his ilk.
These fools don’t even know what fascism is. It’s just a word that sounds good in their talking points. The only fascists I know are GOP members.
@72 I do not think we disagree,
I have a good (Iranian) friend who is a Zorastrian and have met Jews trying to help our brothers and sisters who can not leave Iran. My own ancestors fled to here trying to escape antisemitism. This is the glory of what we all share.
I would also agree withyou about the right wingnuts.
But, unless you are on tranks, you need to be aware that there are pretty bad tings being taught in certain Muslim countries. Moreover, the recent Pew poll also showed that such ideas are more common among immigrants than those who grow up here ..another tribute to our system BTW.
@74
Newspeak includes censorship of words as well as making up new words.
There is a very real movement in islamic countries that mingles the state and islam. The analogy to true fascisim, the kind Mussolini pioneered, is reasonable.
If you do not want to call it Islamofascism, then what do you call it? Surely it sis not “islam?”
Just for fun, here is the term form the Wikipedia:
“Comparisons were made between fascism and Islam, as far back as 1937, when the German Catholic emigré Edgar Alexander compared National Socialism with “Mohammedanism”[1], and again, in 1939, when psychologist Carl Jung said about Adolf Hitler, “he is like Mohammed. The emotion in Germany is Islamic, warlike and Islamic. They are all drunk with a wild god.”[2]
According to Roger Scruton of the Wall Street Journal, the term was introduced by the French Marxist Maxime Rodinson to describe the Iranian Revolution of 1978[3].
The origins of the term are unclear but appear to date back to an article which was published on September 8, 1990 in The Independent. In the article, “Construing Islam as a language,” Malise Ruthven wrote:
“ Nevertheless there is what might be called a political problem affecting the Muslim world. In contrast to the heirs of some other non-Western traditions, including Hinduism, Shintoism and Buddhism, Islamic societies seem to have found it particularly hard to institutionalise divergences politically: authoritarian government, not to say Islamo-fascism, is the rule rather than the exception from Morocco to Pakistan. ”
On the other hand, Albert Scardino of the The Guardian attributes the term to an article by Muslim scholar Khalid Duran in the Washington Times, where he used it to describe the push by some Islamist clerics to “impose religious orthodoxy on the state and the citizenry”.[4]
The related term, Islamic fascism, was adopted by journalists including Stephen Schwartz[5] and Christopher Hitchens, who intended it to refer to Islamist extremists, including terrorist groups such as al Qaeda, although he more often tends to use the phrases “theocratic fascism” or “fascism with an Islamic face” (a play on Susan Sontag’s phrase “fascism with a human face”, referring to the declaration of martial law in Poland in 1981). [6]
Paul Berman believes there are similarities between historical fascism and Islamofacism:[7]
* inspiration from what is believed to be an earlier golden age (one or more of the first few Caliphates in the case of Islamism);
* a desire to restore the perceived glory of this age with an all-encompassing (totalitarian) social, political, economic system, or Sharia;
* belief that malicious, predatory alien forces are conspiring against and within the nation/community, and that violent revolution is necessary to defeat and expel these forces;
* belief in the decadence and weakness of the malicious, predatory enemy forces (this applies to bin Laden and Qutb, though Khomeini does not seem to have mentioned it);
* and offensive military, (or armed) campaign to reestablish the power and rightful international domination of the nation/community.
Some commentators see Islamofascism as a movement by Sunni Islamists who seek the violent creation of a new Caliphate and a return to Sharia law.[8][9][10]
@64 Roger Rabbit
I have now reported you to the CIA, FBI, BSA and Young Republicans for suspicious research by an anonymous person of a national resource.
SJ,
It’s “Don”, not “Dan,” and the school I mentioned isn’t in the United States, let alone Seattle. It’s on Vancouver Island.
Second, I think you’re misstating my point regarding photographs. Because of past interpretations of Shari’ah Law, Muslims taking pictures of each other tends to not be a common thing in their culture, and you have to be aware of these kinds of cultural differences before you try interpreting other people’s behavior. These kinds of things are the very reason why profiling is so perniciously evil.
Lastly, we’re talking about fear and bigotry, and you keep talking about finding “middle ground between ignoring a problem and overstating it.” By framing the debate in those terms, you are excluding the very reasonable possibility that people are very open to doing something about terrorism while also refusing to give in to the fear that terrorists seek to inculcate.
And, yes, I’m well aware that there are some very despicable things being taught in madrasah’s around the world. I’ve seen the videos. Is there any reason to believe that confronting their bigotry with our own flavor of bigotry, borne out of ignorance and fear, will have any positive effect whatsoever?
Back to the origins of islamofascsm there is a very good explanation of the term ans some of its history by Stephen Schwartz on islamic fascism
@78 Don Joe
Just curious, where on Vancouver Island? What a great place to live. You are fortunate.
In photography, maybe the horse is dead? May I point out that even el Qaeda uses photography? As to whether it is suspicious to photograph a dam w/o people, of course not. You wanna read about wierd suspicious, read my blog on being excluded form the rally for Karl Rove because I am a photographer! This happens to me all the time.
As for your last sentence, do you really think I am bigotted in re Muslims? Wow! I do not hink thta is the case. I do have some bigotries:
1. I am bigoted against believing Christians.
2. I am bigoted against the very rich.
3. I am bigoted against sports fans.
4. I am bigoted against Maoist confessionals.
@74
Then you have absolutely no conception of what ‘Fascism’ really is.
Spare us the hyperbole, huh?
Who are you? I am the real TJ. You must be an imposter .
On that subject, my gran gran had his won problems with statist extremism … of both the Norther industrial kind and the Jacobite kind.
Who you think TJ would vote for this year? I am pretty certain it would be Obama. TJ would be thrilled to learn that someone form Kenya was so bright.
May be we should start the Jeffersons for Barack!
I think TJ would be “seeing to his musket” given how things have turned out. You know, the old tree of liberty, and blood of tyrants, and patriots, thing?
Nahh …
Them were just words. He was pretty much anti-jacobite. Remember his reaction to the Whiskey Rebellion?
BTW .. he fought the Islamofascims of his day too .. tried to create a Euro American alliance vs. the north Africans.
I am pretty sure TJ owuld be horrified at the modern corporation and fascinated by the Internet.
THJ
@76:
Paul Berman believes there are similarities between historical fascism and Islamofacism:[7]
* inspiration from what is believed to be an earlier golden age (one or more of the first few Caliphates in the case of Islamism);
* a desire to restore the perceived glory of this age with an all-encompassing (totalitarian) social, political, economic system, or Sharia;
* belief that malicious, predatory alien forces are conspiring against and within the nation/community, and that violent revolution is necessary to defeat and expel these forces;
* belief in the decadence and weakness of the malicious, predatory enemy forces (this applies to bin Laden and Qutb, though Khomeini does not seem to have mentioned it);
* and offensive military, (or armed) campaign to reestablish the power and rightful international domination of the nation/community.
Some commentators see Islamofascism as a movement by Sunni Islamists who seek the violent creation of a new Caliphate and a return to Sharia law.
–
So if we rework these definitions a bit, and define a different kind of fascism as:
* inspiration from what is believed to be an earlier golden age (U.S. dominance of geopolitical affairs in the 1950s);
* a desire to restore the perceived glory of this age with an all-encompassing (totalitarian) social, political, economic system (Biblical law and/or “free” markets);
* belief that malicious, predatory alien forces are conspiring against and within the nation/community, and that violent revolution is necessary to defeat and expel these forces (both foreign terrorists AND liberals, apparently!);
* belief in the decadence and weakness of the malicious, predatory enemy forces (moral weakness associated with an inability to “handle” democracy in the Arab world, for example); and
* an offensive military, (or armed) campaign to reestablish the power and rightful international domination of the nation/community (do I need to explain *that* one?).
What exactly should we call it?
Look, as you say above, SJ, to assume that Islam is automatically more good or evil or prone towards terrorism than any other group is a wrong-headed approach. The drivers here are more economic and political, and not theological. Not all terrorists are or have been Islamic (What about terrorism during the British Mandate of Palestine? London and the IRA? Maoists in Nepal? Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka?) and not all Muslims are terrorists. To conflate the two with some kind of culture/religious-based determinism is garbage.
SeattleJew @ 68,
Your arguments about relative risk are valid. OTOH, is relative risk the only issue here? How do you feel about the Ward Churchill contretemps? The incidence of anti-tenure actions is, of course, miniscule. So why are so many of us upset?
I am not particularly up on that case, but it seems complex (i.e. there are compelling arguments claimed by both sides that I cannot evaluate from the available information). Even so, I don’t see the parallel. The issue here is about oppressing a group of people based on their religion because a small number of people, using that same religion for political purposes, has committed criminal acts. It is plain unAmerican. And it is confounded by our political leaders amplifying the problem for their own political purposes.
“That said, you and I are both teachers. Woud you use ridicule of a student as a teaching device in class?”
I would not. But there is an asymmetrical power relationship in the classroom–such ridicule would be professional misconduct. But this ain’t the classroom. It is the web. The asymmetry is gone, and there is no “power relationship” between her and me.
“Surely you do not believe that ridiculing HER would do any good?”
Sure. This is good old fashioned social learning and Pavlovian training. If she is uncertain on her stance and finds herself being ridiculed, she will be sheepish about her behavior. If she is certain about her position then it is just ridicule.
“If the goal is to wipe out the prejudice, as I would hope it would be, then the best thing might be to ridicule the folks who foment such fears.”
Yep. That, too.
“Better yet, why not invite her to visit the Mosque at Northgate. I have done that myself and was very well received. I’ll bet she has never had such an opportunity.”
That’s an excellent idea. It is not what I will be doing, but someone should.
“What I fear is that antagonizing well meaning folks like this will make matters worse.”
What this person needs is education. And there are many ways to educate people. Satire and mockery can be effective tools for educating people. There are other good tools, too. We each pick the tool that we find suitable and effective….
“As with he much worse situation in Israel, I really believe the ONLY solution is t insist on people getting to know each other. “
Believe it or not, I would NOT use the same technique to deal with that issue that I would use with a bigoted blogger.
“…It is also why I plan to attend the vigil on Thursday? You coming?”
No, but I look forward to reading about it on your blog.
@85 “Look, as you say above, SJ, to assume that Islam is automatically more good or evil or prone towards terrorism than any other group is a wrong-headed approach. … To conflate the two with some kind of culture/religious-based determinism is garbage. ”
Nor have I made such an error. Islamofascism is obviously NOT the only example of fascism.
BTW, it isd also wrong to confuse terrorism with islamofascism. The examples of terrorism you cite are largely unrealted to any work philosophy. The Tamils want Dravvidian independence, the IRA hardly wanted to expell the protestants form their island, the Jews wanted to secure a homeland, the Palestinian today wnat that too. None of these is “fascist.”
BUT, Khomeinism, el Qaeda, the Muslim brotherhood, Hamas, etc are as fascist as any of the precursors we know about from the last century. You may feel that their message is motivated by poverty, colonials oppression, etc and I would agree. But then Hitler’s form of fascism was a reaction to OUR oppression of German society after WW I.
The real issue ought to be how to contain this evil in an era where even a minor polity can create horrible weapons, This is where I have my greatets fear of Bushian incompetence. Frankly, although I support Obama, this is the area I really want to learn more about in his tool bag as well.
SJ @ 80,
The school is on the shore of Shawnigan Lake, and, no, I don’t get to live there. Only my daughter does, and that’s during the school year. I only get to live in semi-rural Woodinville.
I don’t know of the photography horse is dead. Do you agree that it’s a bad idea to interpret other people’s behavior when one isn’t aware of cultural differences?
As for any suggestion about you being a bigot, I thought we were talking about Ms. Tracy and her over-ripe suspicions. When do you become the subject of this thread?
Darryl,
Good post. I am sorry you can’t be there.
I understand the ethos of the web. That said, I still think the lady would be more likley to respond to operant conditioning than to negative reinforcement.
I don’t think that we’re too far off, SJ, and I was really meaning to support *some* of the things that you were saying.
I think that what’s also important is not to overstate the threat here. True, I wouldn’t exactly push for a relaxing of security around nuclear waste sites or chemical plants, but this idea that “Islamofascists” are going to suddenly consolidate the entire Middle East into a single Muslim power bloc is quite paranoid. Not only can radical religious and political groups not even really cooperate towards common goals in many situations, there isn’t even consensus between the *countries* of the Middle East on many major issues. Heck, rival groups within many of the artificially created countries of the region can’t stand each other.
On the other hand, I think that we’ve taken the exact opposite approach with certain countries in the Middle East that we should have been taking, wholly for expediency’s sake. For one, we’ve said that we’ve been trying to spread “democratic ideals” across the world, but we’ve been supporting some rather unsavory autocratic governments in “friendly” countries in the region, and we haven’t been applying the pressure needed to make them change.
In addition, instead of pursuing any kind of constructive dialogue with Iran, we’ve decided that it’s either our way or the highway. Again, we’ve dealt with other unsavory regimes before, but one can argue that the process of dialogue over complete isolation can make some change. So why haven’t we pursued a diplomatic course of action similar to that which Nixon took with China in the 1970s? We’ve based our strategies on the idea that the youth of Iran will suddenly rise up and throw out the government, but why haven’t we vigorously pursued rapprochement as well to try to meet these same goals?
SeattleJew
“There must be a middle ground between ignoring a problem and overstating it.”
I agree completely. The part of the problem that the U.S. has most control over is its foreign policies that are oppressive.
“Since you ask about polls, a good place to start might be the Pew Poll.”
The Pew Poll and the CIAR polls do not support your claim.
“Despite the fact that the incidence of fundamentalism, e.g. regarding the Quran as the literal word of the Deity, is as high as 90% in some groups, to the great credit of the US Muslim communoty and of the country as a whole, most of the news is good. However, amongst those under 30, some 26% accept suicide bombing as being sometimes justified.”
So? If you asked American Christians similar questions: “Can killing be used to defend Christianity” I bet you get about the same percentages. Just because someone thinks war, murder, bombing, or suicide bombing can be used for defense of their way of life, it doesn’t mean they would undertake such actions. In theory the question is asking about actions under an extreme situation.
Another example: Suppose you sample Americans and ask, “can we ethically justify killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians to achieve our goals in Iraq,” you would likely find 30% who answer affirmatively. Holding such beliefs is not against the law. Acting on them is (unless GWB says it is OK).
“Similarly, only 40% of American Muslims agree that 9/11 was carried out by Arab muslims.”
As do 25% of all Americans. (As a matter of fact, I think there is a compelling argument that OBL’s teachings are so contrary to Islam that the hijackers were not Muslim). I’ll bet something like 40% of Americans probably do not believe the U.S. has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis as part of our invasion. That makes them naive or ignorant, not evil.
“There is a slo a Freedom House study of the proportion of American mosques using blatant anti-semitic materials distributed by the Wahabes. The numbers are high. Our own campus recently exhibited a poster (in the Burke) claiming that the Palestinains were the true Cannani.”
Aside from the free speech issues, it is almost certainly the case that, numerically, the anti-semitic materials used in some Christian churches, community groups and other “mainstream” American institutions are a much larger problem. The fundamental principles of our country dictate that all people are free to believe—even hate—as they wish. And no matter how distasteful we think such beliefs are, we cannot “enlighten” people through oppression. Doing so is un-American and mostly ineffective (as in, “the beatings will continue until morale improves).
“As to your claim that Islam is a religion of obligate peace, that is such utter nonsense. Islam is not worse that Christianity but it is a religion that has glorified conquest. If you want to denie that please tell me where I can find the original cultures of the Sassynids, Northern Indians, Coptic Christinas, Yemeni Jews, not to mention indigenous cultures of a lot of Africa. Imperialism under the scimitar is no nicer than under the cross or the hammer and sickle.”
I didn’t say that Islam is a religion of “obligate peace.” Islam teaches the use of violence against oppression. It also teaches that killing of innocent people is wrong and it teaches tolerance for other religions. But, we both know that when great religious wars have been fought, there have been political leaders behind them, with extra-religious motivations. Many types of cultural bigotry have been used to justify wars to the masses, and religion is just another one of them.
“As to current examples of Islamofascism .. that is of islamic state governance, Iran, Parts of Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Hamas, Hezbollah, Pakistan … are these enough?”
You seem to be using the word “Islamofascism” to mean theocracy. I comment on it below.
“Islam is not any more or less intrinsically violent than any other movement that claims to be sole truth and to have the right to impose that truth on others.”
Many religions claim sole truth. But, it is misleading to assert that Islam or Christianity “claims…to have the right to impose that truth on others.” Many, many religions are proselytizing. But using violence and killing of innocent people typically results from attempts at political conquest, not religious conquest. Political leaders start wars. And sometimes they use religion as justification to garner support of ordinary people.
“Communism, Christianity, Facsism, Anglo-American imperialism come to mind.”
I suspect both political scientists and sociologists would question your grouping political philosophies, religions, and specific foreign policies together in this context.
“Does that make it better than any other ‘ism? The idea that Islam is beign is as absurd as is the idea that it is pacifist.”
Of course…because such things are not attributes of a religion. Likewise, it is absurd to claim that Islam is a violent religion. A religion can be neither peaceful or violent. But, practitioners of religions can be either peaceful or violent. Almost all Muslims are peaceful and believe in peaceful coexistance with people of other religions. (Any devout Muslims can point out where their prophet warns Muslim against being “cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority.”)
“The Mullahs of Iran are as serious about islamofascism .. or whatever term you wish to use for a fusion og the state, the economy and islamic rule.”
Islamofacism???? You mean “Theocracy?” The problem is that “fascism” is now typically a pejorative. You would have a hard time convincing me that there are many parallels between the way the Mullahs of Iran want to change Iran’s democracy & economic system, and Benito Mussolini political philosophy & economic system. If that is not the comparison that you are trying to make, then best avoid the term Islamofacist (unless you are intentionally trying to use it as a pejorative).
“Little kids growing up in camps reading the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as tre history are as frightening to me as little kids in the Hitler Jugend or Young Pioneers or whatever the Aryanh nation here calls its variation on this theme.”
Sure…bigotry is bigotry and a bad education is a bad education no matter what flavor it takes. But, oppressing people because they feed hateful fiction to their kids is not going to solve anything. (Oh…and still your chance of getting shot and killed by a crazy person on campus is much greater than you being a victim of either a Christian Identity wacko or a Muslum fanatic.
“Again, the answer seems to me to be spreading the “gospel” of Gandhi, Jefferson, King, Marx, and Chavez … even when that gospel conflicts with fundamentalist religious beliefs imposed by the State.”
Sure…but, again, you cannot force people to adopt such ideas, particularly if they feel you are oppressing them (and therefore see hypocracy in you not following the very teachings you want them to adopt). It’s akin to using rape as a tool to encourage people to adopt conservative sexual norms….
@88 … oh! I thought your reference to bigotry meant me! I am bigoted enuff!
@91 Darryl
Lots of issues here.
Fascism
Yes the term fascism is pejorative. One of the links I offered above to an essay by S. Schwartz does a good jib of discussing the term.
If there were another understandable. widely used term I would be willing to use it. I am not aware of such a term.
As to the comparisons with Mussolini or Stalin, I do think they are apt, esp. to the latter. Both leaders claimed that theri systems were exclusive, they ruled out political opposition. Both claimed ot have discovered the “truth.” In both cases the truth included a form of totalitarian control. All organizations in the USSR, Italy, Iranm Hamas-land must comply with a central authority that claims to be above democratic law. All of these sates are or were willing to use violence to impose the truth on others.
OBL does not want to liberate SA from the dhimmi, he wants to create an Islamic state and spread this form of government to all other parts of the world. While I share concerns about pour own systems tendency to go int hat direction, at its worst the American system at least allows for a lot of diversity on control,
A comparison to theocracy is not really very apt. A theocratic sate can be many things, including in the modern case of Britain, a constitutional monarchy.
Part of the problem here, IMO, is the simplistic generalization folks make about the term religion. Lots of very different things go by that anme. Islam happens to be a religion that sees itself as a system of government for all people. Ashoka,s form of Buddhism may have been similar (and it was pretty totalitarian too!). Similarly, I suspect some of the mezoAmerican and ancient Egypt religions conflated the system of government with total rule. I am not sure any modern “religion” other than Islam has such an idea and even thes eother examples, other than Ashoka, did not see a need to impose their religion when they imposed their rule.
@91 Islamic Tolerance
This is an utter myth … only worth saying in comparison to some of what has been done under the cross.
I think you know the story of Yathrib. What happened to the Jew sof Arabia? At least, unlike people who worshiped Deities other than the one Mohammad approved of, we were merely enslaved. The pagans were killed. The massacres of the Persian conquest still reek over time.
Even in tolerant times, my own Andalusia, we dhimmi never had equal rights. As for today, read Ayan Ali’s description of what she was taught in schools in Kenya and SA. BTW, you do know that my people have never been allowed to return to Yathrib, Is that tolerance?
Such intolerance is NOT universal amongst religions. Until modern times, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, indigenous American religions, etc have not only been tolerant they have welcomed outsiders. Jews lived freely in India, China and (before Islam) Arabia for centuries, Muhanmed brought the pogrom to Arabia.
Even on Malaysia today a Muslim woman can not convert to anther religion.
As usual, it is importnat to keep from extremism. Andalus was a golden era for all mankind because of Ilsamic repset for Jewish and Christian learning. Akhbar’s teachings in India could be a model for all muslims today. The prophet ‘s bigotry should be measured against the worse bigotry of the Byzantines.
BUT, calling Islam a religon of peace or a religion of tolerance is simply PC,
@91 Analogy to Chrchill Issue
I agree this is a reach. Still, the problem is complex … like the one we are discussing. You want tolerance and I want honesty. These are not in conflict until we insist on the extremes.
Similarly,as a believer in academic freedom, I want Churchill left alone. As a believer in honesty, the report (I read most of it) says he should lose his tenure.
I wish the guy would do the honest thing and resign.
Pew Poll
I picked it BECAUSE it is balanced. If you are reassured by the facts there, I am not. Could things be worse? A lot .. look at the Pew data from France. How far is France from Seattle?
@91 Freedom House
Look in my blog, I discussed this report once before. A susbtantial number of Muslims are being taught to hate Jews. Since th eonly ongoing efforts to kill us are at the hands of Muslims, I think this is a more serious issue that the Baptists and Catholics who merely want to convert us all.
I sthis free speech? Of course. So is Ward Churchill’s stuff free speech or, for that matter Pat Robertson. For that matter the KKK has full free speech too.
Freedom does not imply approval.
@91 Bigotry in the Hitler Jugend
Was a lot more than a bad education. Similarly, bigotry taught for so many years here about Africans was not merely bad education.
Nor, however, have oi suggested suppression of anyone. Quite the opposite. I believe we should deal with American islam by postive reinforcement of what is good. I think all Americans should learn enough of the Koran, and the Tota, and the Gita, and the Surahs, and other religous ideas to be able to understand the world we live in. How is that repressive? I would be repressive because i would like to require all kids to get such an education.
@91
The last place is where we come together. I too felel the USA should use its powers very differently. Sometimes it is hard NOT to make bad decisions …; e.g should we have sided with Stalin or Hitler?
Thats aid, I think there is great opportunity for consistent suport of liberal ideals.
Tell me .. how intrusive should we be in China?
Triple-digits. My god.