For a great example of how the righties are trying to weave innuendo and selective quotation into a massive, Democratic, vote-fraud conspiracy, take a look at the exchange over a recent blog on Sound Politics.
An “anonymous” poster, X, who had helped D’s collect signed affidavits in King County, had posted a series of comments explaining the process, assuming he was contributing to a reasoned public debate. And Stefan chose to twist his words into evidence of malfeasance.
I encourage you to read the rightfully indignant response from X, who begins with:
Well, congratulations. You got rid of me.
[UPDATE: Oh man… and now they’re equating voting with murder: Count Every Murder]
Hi David,
Thanks for making a public link to the thread with my response.
I was surprised last night to see that my words had been made a false case of. Although at first I was angry, now I’m becoming glad about it. I don’t think a reasonable person could follow that thread and come away with a good feeling about the honesty at soundpolitics.
I’ll correspond more later, after the work day.
Just read a message, that Move On has sent 250,000 to the state Dems. Think this cinches the deal, full recount, because they can raise much more than that if needed.
Move On folk around the USA are very stresssed about ballot counts, an so forth, and here they have a chance to strike back in a tangible way.
Welcome, X.
Thanks for the Move On tip, Peter. I knew the money would come from somewhere, but it’s nice to see it coming from Move On.
Rumor on the Hill is 2pm or 2:30pm Dem Press Conference…
Also- while Sound Politics is jumping all over the Muckleshoots, they never bothered to verify anything. The Muckleshoots have reportedly rejected Gregoire’s request for recount funds… Which other tribes may have contributed? Well, paid lobbyists being suspect, I guess I shouldn’t go over there and tell them…
But a major influence on this has a tribal member in the House…
The folks at Sound Politics aren’t interested in reasonable debate. That’s too bad. Fortunately, this blog is much more recpetive to ope-ended debate.
I would like to see the following statewide process sent up for the third count;
1. Each vote is examined by a demo and a repub
2. If they don’t agree, the ballot is sent to the state supreme court for them to rule.
Blow on…the curtain rises
Trying to set aside all the partisian stuff which I love a lot ——this is a chance for political types to live through and observe and learn from a historical process.
Someone called it drama, that it is and more. I for one will follow every moment very carefully, and let the heated ranters rant, no account.
Seems Move On and Kerry delivered $$$$, well R’s, the C of C isn’t the only deep pocket in America.
Now let’s watch closely, the curtain rises.
X
By your own admission, you were directly involved in rounding up these affadavits for the Big Bawler–Pauly Wallowy. Fine. As I said, I believe you when you describe what you did to collect these things. YOU, Mr. X, are not the issue. The issues remain:
1) Where is a clear list of the 900+ rejects that were given to the Dems that started this whole thing?
2) Where is a list that clearly shows which of these 900 were actually counted? This would be a sort of the Voter Registration list which shows each of those 900+ names and a sort code that shows which of those were counted.
3) If Berendt claims 400+ were turned in, why were only 225 turned over in a records request?
4) And of the 225 turned over, why were only approx. 1/2 of them on that list of 900??
5) X said he asked for Drivers License and SS# for each affadavit he collected. Did the King Co. Election Officials go thru each one and confirm the Drivers License or SS #??? I doubt it.
This is all about accountability folks. Judge Lean Dum opened the door for serious accountability issues by allowing partisans to get this Provisional List and go collect affadavits. Remember, this group of Provisionals were for votes received where the signature on the ballot clearly did not agree with the filed Voter Registration Card. To allow partisans, after the fact, to go get a new voter registration card and affadvit without someone else independently check is absurd. My point was not to single out X as a bad guy or personally dishonest. It was to point out a huge flaw in this process that is now UNCORRECTABLE. Remember, Judge DUM said to set these affadavits seperately aside. All I am asking for is a clear trail of accountability so others can check. If the Dems could find 400+????? of these, so should someone else. That’s all. X merely raised everyone’s eyebrow, includig mine & Stefan’s by stating he thought up to 4 could be fraudulent. NONE SHOULD BE FRAUDULENT!!! If any are illegitimate, Mr. Berendt should take the voter fraud rap as he personally delievered them The problem now is what exactly did ne deliver and what exactly was done in review those documents?? And if some were clearly fake-o, where did those affadavits go. Something must have happened for 400+ to go to 225 of which about 120 match the original list given to the Dems.
To the previous poster. Call he R attorneys and ask. I am sure they have had an eye on all this. Someone posted long ago that the Bush legal team is here, call them. How can nice guy X answer what he knows not about?
Peter A–I’m only asking X to follow-up since HE was part of the process of gathering these affadavits. X wants all of us to think he is an upstanding individual, which he probably is!! Why would you put forth all the effort X did in running around getting these affadavits and then say “I don’t care what happened to them after I gave them to Paul Gorbochov”. That makes no sense. How does X even know all the affadavits he turned in to the Dems ever even made it to King County Elections??????? This whole idea of partisans running around getting new voter registration cards and affadavits AFTER the election when their ballot signature didn’t match the voter registration card on file is NUTS to begin with. Now it is even more insane if their isn’t a clear audit trail. X was involved directly. He admitted it. I doubt he has the courage to question the Dem eleite about what happened to his work and the work of his comrades. Ignorance is bliss, right???
Cynical – You still haven’t answered anyone’s request that you cite your sources. So as far as most of us here are concerned, you’re just making stuff up. Repeating your accusations 2, 5 or 10 different times doesn’t give them any more legitimacy.
No one is going to seriously engage you because the burden of proof (at this point) is on you. You can’t just throw out accusations and expect everyone to refute them when they have _no_ reason (beyond your say-so) to believe those accusations have a shred of validity.
To put it in the vernacular: “Put up or shut up”
Cynical – Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because you think someone might be up to no good, does not mean they are. I agree with you that audit trails for all parts of election-related vote counting procedures are necessary, but I have seen no evidence here (beyond your repeated accusations that have no source) that anything fishy has happened.
You’re like Fox News, claiming to be spouting fact, when in fact you’re merely hiding your opinion behind phrases like “people say…” and “I have been told…”
There is a clear audit trail. Each of us who take a canvassing map signed it out and back in. We signed as witnesses on some affidaivits, where relevant. There is no doubt that you could track every affidaivit to the person who transported it from the voter.
I doubt this will appease you, though! Somehow, you seem to think it would be good if people who thought they voted were cheated out of their vote. I bet it’s because they live in King County, and you don’t like them because they are predominantly Democrats.
Cynical, I didn’t see you had made a numbered list of incorrect points.
(1) The list of 939 names is in the public record, because of the case in Superior Court finding that it is in the public record. I suggest you go to King Co. Records in order to get the list.
(2) Good question, I want to see that list, too. Thanks to the Dem victory in court, we all have the right to check it.
(3) My guess is that, of the 400 affidaivits we got, 175 or so of them were for people whose votes didn’t count due to non-signature problems.
(4) The list you mention is only provisional ballots, and we also contacted people in the same boat with absentee ballots.
(5) The driver’s license OR last four digits of SSN are on the voter registration form, dude. The only people who could possibly check them work in the voter registration office. It’s not like I can check your Social Security Number if you give it to me. How would I know it’s right?
Calm down X…I’m asking relevant questions. I think those, like you, who made that very special, honorable effort to contact voters who’s ballot’s were rejected for a legitimate cause…and then after the election run around back-filling owe the public a very high level of accountability..that’s all.
1) I have seen the list of 939.
2) The PROBLEM is getting King County to show how many of those 939 had their votes counted and exactly who they are.
3) The number of signed affadavits released by King County doesn’t tie into the number Berendt said he turned in. I hear you about the absentees. Perhaps that is the difference.
So X, you are saying King County has each voters drivers license # or last 4 digits of their SS AND that this information is not Public Information. OK! Exactly who potentially has access to that information X????????????? Are you saying it was absolutely impossible for anyone to get that information to put on a NEW Voter Registration Card????? UMMMM! Let’s see can’t police officers, people in Courts, Dept of Licensing etc etc. get someone Drivers License #??????? Come on X….the point here is that allow partisan hacks to do this after the fact casts a huge shadow…not the only shadow, but a huge one. Let’s deal with this one honestly. I want the Democratic Party and Election Office to clearly lay out a chart of exactly what information was received, brought in and checked…And then I want someone independent to contact every single one of those affadavit signers…JUST TO MAKE SURE. What is wrong with that? However, you need cooperation of all parties to make that happen. X, since you were directly involved and are certainly a trusted Democrat….I’m simply asking you to make sure from your end that everything is copacetic. Understand???
But if even one of those turns up illegitimate, what should the consequences be?? Which is worse, not counting a ballot because the voter changed his signature, didn’t inform Voter Registration OR…is it worse for someone to knowingly bring in a false affadavit????
Think about it first
Cynical,
Partly due to my desire to stay pseudonymous, and partly because I don’t want to give away Party Sekrits, I have never gone as far as I could to defend what we did versus accusations like yours. The fact is, I can’t.
What I can say is that there simply was not enough man-power left over to commit the fraud you suppose existed. I met the staff members who ran this operation — they were spread ridiculously thin. I was in their office when the packets came in from housewives and other responsible adult volunteers. There were hundreds of legitimate affidaivits returned. All the staff members were cranking at 110% to get more legitimate affidaivits. Nobody had time to waste on cooking up affidaivits that could later screw up the entire, 200+ volunteer, effort.
Do you realize that with 200+ volunteers and the two days of that weekend, we did not actually manage to contact very many people? Suggesting that we resorted to fraud and also performed so badly is kind of ill-thought-out.
And if even one of those affidaivits turns out to be illegitimate, someone should be prosecuted for perjury and the signature in question rejected. That was an easy one.
You have the list, Mr. Cynical? Then you know there is a Nicole B. of the 1800 block of Howell on there, and a Karen G. of the 1200 block of Summit, and a Spencer B. who lives in the U. District near 17th and 50th. I talked to these three, among others. I happen to remember their names and where they live.
Between me, my neighbor, and my friend, I am responsible for handing in 31 or 32 of those affidaivit packets. I personally am 5% of what was handed in. If there were systematic fraud, no 1.5% of the volunteers could overachieve and collect 5% of the affidaivits. We were above average because we are younger (faster moving) and also devoted a total of 80-90 man hours to it that weekend.
The staffers were too out of their heads with sleep deprivation to concoct fake affidaivits. Mostly what they did with their extra time not organizing volunteers was rest.
Comment by Jenny— 12/3/04 @ 1:01 pm
No argument here. I recall having to help lay down some covering fire for you when Ambra Nykol published some big lies…
X–Again I am not questioning your personal integrity…which I imagine is high. And I don’t for a second doubt your sincerity that all others involved in this operation had the best of intentions.
All I am asking is for clear public disclosure so any suspicion can be laid to rest. Unfortunately, the King County Election folks have not been as quickly forthcoming with requested data as one would expect based on how responsive they have been on other issues. I would think everyone would want this all clearly & independently evaluated. That’s it. It really is quite simple. I’m prepared to move on for now….however X, I will let you know if stone-walling continues.