I’ve always been opposed to gambling expansion, but I never fully understood the prevalence or devastating impact of problem gambling until I jumped headlong into the fight against Tim Eyman’s incredibly stupid slot machine initiative, I-892. My personal tutor on this issue was our state’s leading advocate on behalf of problem gamblers, Jennifer McCausland of Second Chance Washington, whose passion and perseverance played a major role in securing passage of last session ‘s landmark (and long overdue) legislation to provide permanent funding for problem gambling treatment and prevention programs.
McCausland has a guest column in today’s Seattle P-I (“Teens are gambling with their lives“), spelling out the desperate need to educate parents and teens about the dangers of gambling addiction, at a time when poker and other forms of wagering are being aggressively marketed to our nation’s youth.
The gambling industry’s deliberate effort to hook the young is eerily reminiscent of tobacco industry campaigns decades earlier. From the glamour of Bravo’s celebrity poker tournaments to the daily poker-as-sport programming on ESPN, Fox Sports and elsewhere, the industry is attempting to both normalize and entice, much like Big Tobacco once used Hollywood to sell a long drag and the seductive trail of cigarette smoke as the epitome of cool.
While access to gambling has exploded, and youths are being exposed at an earlier and earlier age, there is virtually no effort to inform parents and children about the very real dangers involved. Proceeds of the national tobacco settlement enable Washington state to spend $28 million a year on its highly successful campaign to curb teen smoking; unfortunately only pennies are spent to warn parents and teens about gambling addiction.
A Harvard Medical School study found teen gamblers are three times more likely to become addicted than their adult counterparts and the younger the age of initial exposure the higher the incidence. Other studies estimate that between 2.5 percent and 6 percent of teens are already addicted. The 1999 National Gambling Impact Study made two crucial recommendations: raise the legal gambling age to 21 and launch “targeted prevention efforts … to curtail youth gambling.”
Six years later, it’s time to start acting on these recommendations.
Last year a WA State Gambling Commission sting operation found that five casinos of the seven surveyed permitted a 16-year-old agent to gamble and buy alcohol. Drinking and gambling are inextricably mixed; WA needs to follow the national trend and raise the legal age to 21 on all forms of gambling. And following the example of our state’s highly successful $28 million a year campaign to curb teen smoking, WA should set an example by devoting a few million dollars a year to educate parents and teens about the dangers of gambling addiction as well.
We’re not talking about banning gambling, or shutting down casinos… we’re talking about educating the public about the very real risks involved. Parents and teens need to understand that gambling can be just as addictive as alcohol… and just as destructive.
When I was a teen, my parents sometimes purchased beer for my high school parties; understanding that we would likely drink with or without their permission, they preferred that we do it under their careful supervision. Today, that “responsible” attitude would get them shunned from the community, if not arrested and jailed.
We need a similar paradigm shift in parents’ understanding of gambling… that it is not a harmless activity that should be promoted to children and teens — who are three times more likely to become addicted than adults — and that parents and educators should always be vigilant for the warning signs of addiction. With the poker craze in full swing and access to gambling expanding at a steady clip, teen gambling is becoming a growing public health crisis whose young victims will struggle with their addiction for the rest of their lives.
My understanding is that there are legislators who recognize the need to act now, and I hope you will all join me in supporting legislation to raise the gambling age to 21, and to provide sufficient funds for a substantive teen gambling addiction awareness, education and prevention campaign.
So let’s get this straight….
In the past week you have proposed legalizing drugs and restricting gambling?
Not for nuthin’ but your direction does not exactly seem clear.
You forgot the banning of smoking and the increased Alcohol Free areas…… I want all gambling taxed, to the hilt!
momus @1,
What lazy bullshit.
First of all, I didn’t propose legalizing drugs. I proposed debating it.
Second, the only restriction I’m proposing on gambling is to raise the age to 21… the same age we have for alcohol, and the same age we would have for legal access to recreational drugs under any proposal that I’ve ever read.
This age limit is based on sound science. The adolescent brain is still wiring itself, and is much more vulnerable to addictions of all sorts than a mature brain. And once these behavior patterns are established, they become very difficult to break.
But of course, the bulk of what I’m proposing is that we need to educate parents and teens that yes… gambling is addictive, and can have all the same dire consequences as other addictions.
What’s your problem with that? (Or did you just have an urge to be dishonestly snide?)
I’m not a fan of either gambling or drugs, but I think your discussion of prohibition made more sense in your piece on drugs than in this piece. And while you’re at it, Goldy, perhaps you should advocate raising to 21 the age for driving, voting, using the Internet and having sex!
The voting age was lowered to 18 at the time of Vietnam, and the rallying cry back then was, “if you’re old enough to die in combat, you’re old enough to vote!” How can you tell a Fort Lewis soldier facing an Iraq deployment that he’s too young to gamble if he wants to?
Regardless of how bad the problem is, more state mommyism is not the answer. In fact, it’s meaningless if you don’t put resources into enforcement. Personally, I think our courts are busy enough without clogging them with citations for underage gambling.
I remember reading a youth book when I was a kid about the experiences of a boy who lost his eyesight to a firecracker and had to learn to live as a blind person. He went to a special school for the blind. In one scene, he banged into a sharp corner and got hurt, and asked the teacher why the school didn’t put padding on the corner. The teacher gently replied, “because the world outside doesn’t, and we have to teach you how to live in a world with sharp corners.” The story was fiction, but the lesson isn’t. The world is full of temptations, and every temptation comes with a danger. Parents simply must teach their children how to live in a world full of dangerous temptations. There’s no substitute for young people understanding by the age of 18 the consequences of indulging in drugs, tobacco, alcohol, gambling, debt, credit cards, etc.
No, the state being a mommy is not the answer. The answer is better parenting, and families taking responsibility for preparing their offspring for life. And perhaps the schools also have a role in educating youths about what’s out there, and what it can do to them if they’re not careful.
So, Stefan, if you win your lawsuit against Dean Logan and KCE, are you going to share the proceeds with the generous donors to your “legal action fund” or keep all the money for yourself?
P.S., if you’re NOT going to share the proceeds with the generous contributors who paid for your lawsuit, my next question is whatever happened to your Christmas spirit, and why do you hate Christmas?
Hmmm … 3 minutes and no response. I infer from Stefan’s silence that he’s a Christmas-hater.
I was struck by this from Jennifer’s column in today’s paper:
“At the grocery store I noticed a mother handing dollar bills to her small children, who eagerly fed them into a lottery ticket machine. Apart from it being illegal for someone under 18 to play the lottery, I was appalled at the message this parent was sending to her children: Gambling is child’s play, a game to entertain the tykes. ”
I think a little education IS in order.
So … the topic for discussion in this thread is, why does Stefan hate Christmas? how did his parents and community fail? and, most importantly, is he going to use his shitty little blog to export his anti-Christmas terrorism to other countries?
“First of all, I didn’t propose legalizing drugs. I proposed debating it.”
So basically, you want to just talk about legailzing drugs but not actually do anything about it?
Then why have the debate at all, or do you just want to waste people time, efforts and money debating something you don’t want to change?
Decriminalize marijuana
Raise gambling age to 21
Ask the Wizard for a brain for MOMUS
I don’t see the point. Educatoin? Sure. But more limitatoins of adults from acting as adults? The drinking age is already insulting as it concedes that an adult is responsible enough to vote, but not drink.
And who bears the cost of all this?
When I was in Vietnam, army regulations said only officers could have hard liquor. This meant a 20-year-old second lieutenant could drink Old Granddad but a 40-year-old master sergeant could only drink beer. The theory was officers had the education, intelligence, and maturity to handle hard liquor whereas enlisted men couldn’t be trusted with intoxicants. Consequently, our officers were always drunk, and the enlisted men had to use drugs to get their high. By 1700 hours, nobody was in any shape to fight a war.
Roger,
When I was active duty the drinking age on base was still 18 for beer.
Ah the good old days….
Didn’t affect me by the way, I was 21 when I enlisted.
Goldy,
a. Gambling legalization largely a Demo cause…
b. Betcha GOP folks would support stripping out lotto, all state sanctioned gambling.
c. And you could still milk the Indians for all thier lucrative law and banking contracts (since they are exampt)
Second, the only restriction I’m proposing on gambling is to raise the age to 21… the same age we have for alcohol, and the same age we would have for legal access to recreational drugs under any proposal that I’ve ever read. [Er, Goldy, I served in the United States Navy when I was 18, and I voted when I was 18. Now you say I can’t play blackjack at 18? Hmmmmmmm…Gildy, did you ever serve you country in the military? [the United States, Goldy, not in the JDF] I didn’t think so. Freedom isn’t free, pissant.
“When I was in Vietnam….”
Gee Grandpa, that’s an interesting story.
Did you walk uphill both ways in the snow to get to your headstash?
righton “c. And you could still milk the Indians for all thier lucrative law and banking contracts (since they are exampt)”
Uh, have you been following the news lately? Repugs have cornorred the Indian casino market, AND the protection money for the racket.
But unfortunately they got caught and are now going DOWN for it.
You shithead!
momus, why do you hate the troops?
Because the troops believe in Christmas.
How about you?
momus, why do you hate the troops?
Comment by Donnageddon — 12/8/05 @ 1:13 pm
Because the troops believe in Christmas.
How about you?
Comment by momus — 12/8/05 @ 1:14 pm
So, there we have it! momus hates the troops because they believe in Christmas.
Thanks for the information, momus.
What about personal responsibility when it comes to gambling? What’s wrong with being responsible for one’s actions?
rigthon @ 16:
1) I’m slightly to the left of Karl Marx, and I definitely don’t support gambling. The social downside costs are enormous and besides, it hurts people with a poor education more than others. (if u had a good education, you will have the math to understand that the house ALWAYS wins in the long run). Since when is this a “Democratic cause”? Demo groups for? Goldy u need to start a poll function
2) GOP is mostly for capitalism, ain’t it? Gambling and gambling expansion (new building construction, creates jobs, ignores social costs) is capitalism at it’s best (or worst). Social conservatives may be for it, but it’s the money guys who really run things.
3) Nowhere in Goldy’s post does he make the distinction between Indian and non-Indian gambling. Oh, and the 80 MILLION the Indian casinos gave Abramoff (mucho righty ties) put the lie to to your “Gambling is a Demo cause”
Sorry, not all soldiers believe in Christmas. There are many soldiers in the US Military who do not celebrate Christmas because of their religion. The military does NOT discriminate based on religious preference.
@ 23.
Exactly. Like Smoking…..
smmac, I don’t think momus makes a distinction. The belief in Christmas is just an excuse for the hatred of American Soldiers.
@ 25
Yeah, no kidding. Even weirdo wiccans can aim a rifle.
@28
There are wiccans in the Army, there are pagans in the Army, along with a hundred other religions.
And they need every single one of them these days.
Goldy,
Moving the gambling age to 21 would be an absolute disaster. We’ve learned the hard way with alcohol that when you ‘delay’ the responsibilities of adulthood, you invite bingeing behavior from those who are told they’re not old enough to do it responsibly. It adds an element of brazenness to the act that encourages young adults to go too far. With the prevalence of online gambling now, the only thing that the age limit would accomplish is to push more of the gambling problems online, where it’s a lot easier for a problem to do a lot of damage.
I agree with you that this is a serious problem, and even my libertarian ass would not be bothered by banning or curtailing certain types of advertising that targets those under 18. But treating young adults like children is a strategy that never works with psychologically addictive behaviors, whether it’s binge drinking, marijuana use, or gambling.
thehim @ 31 – Couldn’t of said it better myself!
15
Perhaps you misunderstood my point. I enlisted as a 22-year-old college grad, but I couldn’t buy hard liquor at the PX because I wasn’t an officer.
15 (continued)
Good old days? What the hell are you talking about? There was nothing good about being in the Army in Vietnam. We all counted the days until we could get on that “Freedom Bird” and “sky” out of there for CONUS and a good drunk.
18
“‘When I was in Vietnam….’ Gee Grandpa, that’s an interesting story.”
How did you become such a mean fucker, anyway?
larry,
Naw, tribes and others heavily support Dems (and to some extent Repubs). Great way to grease unions, union bosses.
What stupid dems don’t realize is they supported the worlds most regressive tax. If i was really callous i’d love these lotto’s etc. Great that min wage people are pissing away their money to the state…
23
“What about personal responsibility when it comes to gambling? What’s wrong with being responsible for one’s actions?”
Yeah, I agree — if MTR ends up in Puget Sound with his feet encased in concrete, it’s his own damn fault for welshing on his gambling debts.
26
Nobody’s saying you can’t smoke. All they’re saying is you can’t make others breathe your smoke.
RR@5: Here here. A wonderful post. Now if you could direct that sentiment to other mommystate programs that will force people to become self sufficient, I could drift more toward your position! As I stated before many mommystate programs have destroyed the black nuclear family and the inner-city gang bangers growing up without fathers is a real problem. The other issue is no one will tackle the inner city jobs issue. And if you notice clueless, donnageddon & windie I am not politicizing it. There is no impetus to do better so nothing is done. I commend Magic Johnson for his jobs attitude in the LA inner city. Why do you think “Tookie” was so successful in creating the Crips?
Last I remember, Eyemans initiative didnt legalise gambling for teens….guess we should close the taverns because of increased drinking in grade schools?
I dont think it needed agovernment mandate for it.
More government intrusion and erosion of rights.
And evenif u want to ban it from some places, bannign it from a cigar bar, where they go there specifcally to smoke is just plan stupid.
I hate the nanny state…
Gambling doesn’t need to be banned but it sure as heck needs to be cut back a bit. The biggest problem with the gambling industry today is that it is expanding so rapidly. This requires the casinos to either get more people hooked on gambling (so they can lose money) or to get the current crop of gamblers to gamble even more (so they can take more money from them).
I admit that I’m somewhat biased about the topic after having most of the money that would have gone to my college education, braces, first car and regular meals “invested” on the fourth place horse in a five horse race.
As for most of the nonsense above, I wish the extraneous “comments” in this post could be moved elsewhere so the grown ups could talk…
Proceeds of the national tobacco settlement enable Washington state to spend $28 million a year on its highly successful campaign to curb teen smoking
Percent of settlement being spent on:
Anti-smoking efforts – 2%
Health related programs – 17%
Debt service on securitized funds – 7%
General purposes – 6%
Infrastructure – 5%
State budget shortfalls – 54%
Trial lawyers’ cut $10-30 billion
Thank you Mrs Gregoire.
Percent of tobacco settlement being spent on:
Anti-smoking efforts – 2%
Health related programs – 17%
Debt service on securitized funds – 7%
General purposes – 6%
Infrastructure – 5%
State budget shortfalls – 54%
Trial lawyers’ cut $10-30 billion
Thank you Mrs Gregoire.
since they make that much money on tobacco taxes, pity they are trying to get everyone to quit by making it harder to smoke.
Good logic there….
=)
Let me get this straight in my mind.
If they can surf the internet for porno, download it all to their IPOD, vote in any state and federal election, join the military and get shot up, buy cigarettes, buy alcohol in some states, have an abortion if they happen to be pregnant and 13 years old without telling their parents, get a job, get credit cards and bank accounts, but you don’t think they should gamble until they are 21?
@42
The Snohomish Sheriff was on Neil Cavuto today. He said he does NOT have time to enforce the ban and people should understand NOT to expect the police to show up when you call 911 and report a rabid smoker!
Micheal, you quoted a lot of (uncited) percentages there for where the tabacco settlement money went, but then when it came to those boodiemen “Trial Lawyers” you just gave a wide $ value.
Question: Where did you get those statistics and what percentage was the “trial Lawyers” cut?
P.S. any lawyer who goes to court is a “trial lawyer”
Last session they approved millions from the Tobacco Settlement to go into the newly created Life Sciences Discovery Fund, which some have claimed is embryonic stem cell research….
The Tobacco Money is coming in several waves, isn’t it?
The democrat trial lawyers mustsue and destroy the following industries: tobacco, alcohol, oil and gas, GE, auto, fast food, and gun manufacturing. The only industries that should be allowed are “guvment” and trail lawyers. [Atlas has Shrugged] hehe……JCH
Oh yeah…….Democrat trail lawyers must drive the medical and drug industries out of business, too!! [until John Edward’s wife needed a cancer doctor! Then the Democrat POS trail lawyers headed for Walter Reed where the military doctors can’t say “piss off”!!]
Heshey’s and McDonald’s must be sued by Democrat trail lawyers named Goldensteinburg, Loeb, and Weinerstein as well!! [Atlas has Shrugged!]
How about these LEFTIST PINHEADED CLOWNS from ALF and ELF!!!
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....ism08.html
I’m sure the shameless CLOWNS on this Blog will start some f*cking VIGIL until they are released!
26
Nobody’s saying you can’t smoke. All they’re saying is you can’t make others breathe your smoke.
Comment by Roger Rabbit— 12/8/05 @ 4:49 pm
Don’t want to breath others people smoke, don’t go to establishments that allow smoking. These are PRIVATE businesses assholes! This shit pisses me off, and I dont even smoke.
Rufus, I was ambivelant about the smoking ban. But now knowing it pisses you off.
I LOVE IT!
47
Remember Donna, first it is cigarettes then the next thing you know they will be confiscating your bong. You better stand up now before it is too late.
Rufus,
It is already too late. King County Health guy (Valdez) was quoted yesterday as saying that it isn’t going to apply to condo’s and apartments, but that they will look at that if they get complaints. WSDOT is going to allow you to smoke inside of your vehicles while you wait to get on a ferry. Posters on the PI opinion pages are already talking about raising the age to 21, restricting all smoking in all enclosed areas to include your home if you have anyone in your home under 21! I-901 made lots of homes “public places” if you receive any type of social service money from the state. When you are old and need assisted living, forget about it, you will hobble your old butt outside 25 feet………..
One of the first bills presented in the next legislative session will be to ban all cell phones while driving!
Another bill will be you need parental permission to get a piercing or a tatoo!
Rufus, ” they will be confiscating your bong.”
Heck, Rufus, what am I gonna put in that bong other than RNC mass mailings?
I hadn’t smoked a cigarette since 6th grade (i.e. not since the early 1970s). So you would think that I-901 wouldn’t affect me (other than cleaning up the air in some of my hangouts).
So, what did I do this week? Tuesday I show up at drinking liberally and smoked two cigarettes in celebration of the ban (so sorry, Andrew).
Wednesday I go to The College Inn and I smoke another cigarette, just because it is the last time I can do that. I even figured out how to blow smoke out of my nose (thanks, Goldy!).
So, the smoking ban caused me to start smoking.
Today I am going cold turkey and trying to quit. I’m just taking it, one hour at a time….
Here is another story for you donks about how well your public schools are run
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....her08.html
good luck, dj. The nicotine is a killer.
Roger Rabbit. At 4 PM I wrote a response to #5 agreeing with you. I guess Goldy doesn’t like me agreeing with you. I wonder why? No marbles Goldy?
Puddybud @ 55,
Ummmm…I don’t think Goldy is axing your held posts. The most likely explanation for your post taking 5+ hours to appear is that Goldy is not in range of his computer.
Maybe he’s on a hot date or doing his Christmas shopping!
39
“I dont think it needed agovernment mandate for it.”
Do you prefer the knuckle sandwich approach?
DJ,
I wish you better luck than me, the more I think about quitting, the more I eat! Good luck!
dj @53,
Was that my fault? I did mention my cigar smoking a few posts ago…
No, I doubt I have such an effect, but when we do have a beer, I may need to sneak outside for a good smoke…
46, 49
I think they should allow smoking and ban Republicans. Everyone would be healthier.
50
“One of the first bills presented in the next legislative session will be to ban all cell phones while driving!”
I’ll support that one! I’m fed up with people’s inattentive driving. I counted noses today, and 3 of my children are missing … don’t know if SUVs or the Parks Department fascists got ’em.
No problem, I’ll just make more bunnies!! :D :D :D
55
It should be out of the filter by now, so it must be operator error.
I know this is off subject but have you heard about this donks. (sniff sniff,lip quiver, tear) Paul Berendt is resigning. Let all have a good cry for Mr. (sniff sniff wimper) Paul “lets count every vote as long as it is donk” Berendt.
63 Or he is in shock reading it.
Donnageddon @ 54 and sgmmac 58,
Thanks! It has been a rough day, but I think my 0.0055 years as a smoker have finally come to an end!
marks @ 59,
No, it wasn’t your fault. It is the same old story…I succumbed to peer pressure and started a nasty habit that lasted fractions of a year.
Yeah…I am looking forward to that beer. No problem…if we get together in Washington, we’ll have to bring a couple of folding chairs and sit in the middle of the road during your smoking breaks….
@61
I think that you are mis-counting so that you can have fun trying to make more!
dj @66,
Well, I do not smoke as much as I used to. Cigars are not as bad as cigarettes, but either can be offensive to somebody else’s nose. Besides, peer pressure works the same way in an anti-smoking sense. Good thing you can give it up after your 0.0055 years as a smoker!
67
Nah, I don’t need excuses to make more bunnies! It’s what Nature designed me for — that’s reason enough!
And of course your post had to be “that” number…….. You seem to be missing a lot of your little bunnies lately, I was just checking!
57
Roger, I would prefer people vote with their wallet and if you dont like the smoking in a bar, go elsewhere. If the owner misses the business he can ban it.
I went to a bar with smoking friends to play pool recently. I quit smoking in 91 and dont like being around it, but my friends were worth a few hours of it. I made a choice.
Since when do you figure you have a *right* to patronage that overweighs the rights of the owner to decide what is and isnt allowed?
Personal responsibility and and choice. I thought liberals loved choice?
Wabbit @ 5 – Great post. Yer zackly right. The world is full of vices. More mommystatism is NOT the answer.
But I think you moonbats are partly to blame. Instead of teaching about hard work, enterprise and the miracle of free markets, you guys instead try to tear that down and tell people they have “rights” that don’t exist. Your ideology teaches that choices shouldn’t have consequences. So if gamblers piss away money, that’s not going to change their expectations of the lifestyle they “deserve”.
We need to teach kids that investing and gambling are NOT the same thing. Go to Wall Street and invest wisely and eventually you’ll be VERY wealthy. Go to Vegas, and you’ll eventually be broke no matter what you do.
So basically, you want to just talk about legailzing drugs but not actually do anything about it?
Then why have the debate at all, or do you just want to waste people time, efforts and money debating something you don’t want to change?
That is ridiculous; you can’t debate an issue where one of the outcomes is choose to not take action?
Sounds like the debate regarding the Iraq invasion….oh wait there really wasn’t any debate since we had to choose between war or being a terrorist sympathizer…
So, Mark The Redneck:
Did you pay up on your bet with Goldy? We can all tell you are a man of integrity, but not paying up on your bet is leading a lot of us to reconsider…
Goldy knows the adolescent mind well, it is as far as he has ever grown his own.
15
Perhaps you misunderstood my point. I enlisted as a 22-year-old college graduate, but I could not buy hard liquor at the PX because I was not an officer.
Comment by Roger Rabbit— 12/8/05 @ 4:42 pm
Wabbit when you were in the Army they produce more alcoholics than any other institution in the World. The time you were in LBJ made your life miserable and your world was out of control. That has change today due to new leadership and empowerment. Example: Last year we trained 400 plus troops in Oregon on new equipment, and trained on new fighting tactics now used in Southwest Asia. We had a Military Dining out with all the Troops and alcohol was included. First, no one was could leave the reservation or drive a vehicle, and everyone who wanted to partake in whatever beverage they wanted. After the event no one was noticeable drunk or out of control. The young soldiers wanted to know what I want to do with the last keg of beer. I informed them to take it to the orderly room so everyone could drink the remainder. One Sergeant was to make sure no one would get in trouble, or they would all be in trouble, and everyone would lose the privileges in the future. The next morning there was no troubles to deal with and everybody had a great time. NO SIN COPS NEEDED. The same type of adult soldiers in Southwest Asia did the same thing and no one was offended. We had many other problems, but it did not have to do with someone not acting like a responsible person. To put it bluntly the Troops today are lot better than our generation Wabbit.
Sounds like the debate regarding the Iraq invasion….oh wait there really wasn’t any debate since we had to choose between war or being a terrorist sympathizer…
Comment by Compton— 12/8/05 @ 10:35 pm
Comton you are a terrorist sympathizer if you side with the terrorist. Besides you are not required to put on a uniform and defend this country. War is not a debate, and for your knowledge we have been blowing the hell out of Sadam’s Army since 1992. I know because I watch the Aircraft launch and return without any ordnance on board. We watch the video and saw the results of the missions. I saw the results of what Sadam’s folks did to defenceless people in kuwait. While you sleep Sadam had your debate and lost. You are lucky for not being tried for the muders of defenceless people in Kuwait and Iraq by Sadam’s troops. Those who stand by and do nothing to help his fellow friends who is being mudered, is an accomplice to the crime. You go read moveon.dot org and maybe you can clear you conscious, but for me I will help those who cannot defend themselves.
klake @ 86
You are an idiot if you believe Compton’s (@86) political dialog amounts to being a “terrorist sympathizer.” Even Shrub has fessed-up that political debate over the war is legitimate.
Gosh…that makes you stupider than Shrub!
You’re with us, or you with the… what the fuck? I have to be with your fucking idiot of a president, or I’m with the murdering jihadists? I want a recount!
I saw a bumper sticker once. It said “I Stand With President Bush”
so I made my own: “I Stand With Everyone Else”
@88
You have to pay for recounts!
79
“And of course your post had to be ‘that’ number”
?
Reply to 80
You’re overlooking the fact 225,000 employees of these establishments, who have no say in the owners’ policies, were exposed to second hand smoke 8 hours a day. A main purpose of the primary purpose of the initiative is to protect their health. In any case, the people have spoken, and smokers lost this argument at the polls by a 2-to-1 margin. Move on; it’s over.
81
“Go to Wall Street and invest wisely and eventually you’ll be VERY wealthy.”
Really? It takes money to make money. If you have only $2,000 to invest and quintuple your money, you still have only $10,000, which is not enough to buy a car with let alone retire on, and certainly isn’t what I would call “VERY wealthy.” And given the extent to which companies have been lying about their balance sheets, and CEOs have skimming the cream and leaving their shareholders in Chapter 11, it’s gotten very difficult to say “Wall Street” and “invest wisely” in the same sentence with a straight face. That’s one of the big reasons why people have been flocking into real estate.
Know what happens to capitalism when it isn’t regulated and policed, Mark? It collapses under the weight of greed and corruption, that’s what. Without government — and governance — all you have is the Law of the Jungle, and I’m not about to hand over my pittance of capital to Wall Street’s uncaged predators.
It’s the invisible hand, Mark. When the small investor gets screwed, the small investor walks away. As far as I’m concerned, the Wall Street big boys can occupy themselves by stealing from each other. They deserve each other.
P.S., the Bush administration has done a stinking lousy job of policing Wall Street, although to be fair, the rot in the financial world started long before Bush or even Clinton came along.
With Mrs. Rabbit and I both retired, all of our income comes from government pensions. Thank God we’re in a government pension system, and not a corporate one.
Corporations are teaching us (and young people) they have no honor, they’re liars, and their contracts and promises are worthless. They use the bankruptcy courts to break their union contracts and welsh on their pension obligations.
Of course, the people working for these companies should have seen this coming 20 years ago. For two decades, most of America’s large companies have underfunded their pension funds by anywhere from 50% to 90%. Where did their workers think the pension checks were going to come from, anyway? The Great Piggy Bank in the sky? These same companies also told their shareholders lies about their solvency, because our government not only allowed them to underfund their pension funds, but also let them publish statements of financial condition that were silent about the Damocles sword of pension debt hanging over corporate America.
What corporate America has taught workers, Mark, is:
a) Don’t be loyal to your company, because they’re not loyal to you.
b) Your boss is dishonest with you, so you can’t afford to be honest with him.
c) Don’t hesitate to fuck your employer, because your employer won’t hesitate to fuck you.
d) Trust no one, and above all, don’t trust the company you work for.
e) Be loyal to no one; grab what you can, when you can, because the only person who will ever look out for you, is you. Your company won’t; the government won’t. It’s every man for himself.
f) There are no rules anymore.
I have absolutely no sympathy or tolerance anymore for employers who complain they can’t get loyal, hard-working, dedicated employees anymore. They brought this on themselves.
“The breakdown of the employee-employer compact is at least in part to blame for dissatisfaction with job security, according to Stephen Brock, president of Human Capital Development in Simpsonville, South Carolina. ‘There’s a drop in morale that is the result of employees not feeling companies are loyal to them anymore,’ Brock says.”
http://wlb.monster.com/articles/satisfaction/
DJ, RR: My post is now in purgatory. That makes seven since my first visit.
Perhaps the failure of these corporate pensions will cause folks to take a hard look at their situations and realize it’s their responsibility to plan for their own retirements. The defined benenfit (pension) system is dead. The defined contribution plan has repaced it as the retirement vehicle available to most employees in the private sector.
Corporate pension plans failed because the corporations promised too much over 30 years ago. Now, with the global economy, corporations cannot live up to the promises made. Smart corporations terminated their defined benefit plans and converted them to defined contribution plans.
95,
you are inconsistent.
YOu reply to me that the smoking ban was about protecting the employees tights from workplaces where they had no choice, but now you say that employers have no shortage of good workers
So let the employees make choices, if they dont like the environment quit and move on. Washington has a no constitutional protection to the job of your choice.
Choice dude, choice. Make people responsible.
Having said that, I do concede that is the only aspect of it I am sympathetic too.
But there are many places where there was an expectation of smoking, like say Cigar rooms and smoke shops. Now those are banned. Banning it there is stupid.
A smoking ban that makes sense I would have supported. This one does not make sense, and the built in exclusion for hotels already opens the door to overturn it for equal protection.
Wabbit @ 93 – Limbaugh is right. To be a liberal, you gotta believe that freedom comes from government and oppression comes from corporations. Geez…
The vast majority of corporations that have defined benefit programs fund them properly and comply with ERISA in every way. There are some notable exceptions of course, but to paint all Murkan corporations with the same brush is just plain stupid.
You got the rules wrong too. It’s a new world. No longer do Murka workers have a “right” to a job. There are millions of people around the world who can do the same work as Murkan workers and do it cheaper and sometimes better. If you want a job, you gotta EARN it, and you gotta work your ass off every day if you wanna keep it. Bitch all you want, but that’s the way it is, and it’s not ever gonna change. In fact, they now teach MBAs that globalizing is the upright moral thing to do because it transfers wealth to developing nations that so desperately need it. They come right out and say that since the UN can’t levy taxes (yet) that instead of transferring money they’ll transfer the jobs. That’s why CEOs from major US corporations go to WTO meetings. They get marching orders what to move where.
An interesting graphic in today’s Investors Business Dalily, page A-12:
Quintile % of all income taxes paid
Bottom 20% 0.50%
20-40 % 2.7%
Middlle 40 – 605
Sorry Here’e the rest:
40-60% 7.9%
60-80% 17.9%
top 20% 71.0%
So, the top 405 of income earners are paying 89% of the income taxes paid. That means the rich getting richer is a good thing!
Puddybud @ 98
“DJ, RR: My post is now in purgatory. That makes seven since my first visit.”
Ummm…I doubt RR can help, and I know that I cannot help. Your best bet is to email Goldy and ask him—he can tell you whether or not he has seen your post. I noticed that the HA server went down for about 5 minutes yesterday afternoon. Perhaps that is related?
the server went down several times, and I lost two posts in process.
Goldy has helpd some of my posts for the spam filter, but has yet to block any.
He gets full marks from me for allowing open debate here.
Hey Wabbit – Didja see the article in today’s Pee Eye that state gummint been stealing money from the pension fund? Mrs. Gregoire (I won’t call her gov) promises to stop stealing and pay it back. Guess that makes most of your post at 95 bullshit.
“libertarian” your post @ 102 and 103 seems pretty damning. But you forgot one important fact, asshole. The top 50% has 84.4% of ALL GROSS EARINGS!
SO the rich getting richer doesn’t make you and me, or our economy any better at all, unless we QUICKLY raise their taxes to cover our enormous deficit.
http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub.....in01ts.xls
Klack-
Your barely coherent post expose your inability at critical thought. Nice work.
Here’s an oft-quoted remark that illustrates that although your skill at applying the technique is poor, your chosen method is not:
“Of course the people don’t want war. But after all, it’s the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it’s a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.” -Air Marshal Goering after WWII
RR: See post #39. Goldy finally released it.