According to a “reliable source” several tribes have agreed to contribute about $100,000 to the Gregoire campaign to help cover the costs of a hand recount.
(Hmmm… do you think Tim Eyman would have ponied up some of his hard earned panhandled cash to help Rossi pay for a recount?)
Now I’m sure folks like Timmy and the aluminum milliners at Sound Politics are going to whine about the tribes trying to “buy an election” or some bullshit spin like that. But it’s a political contribution like any other, and I don’t hear the righties complaining when the BIAW spends half-a-million putting a justice on the State Supreme Court.
Anyway, the point is, despite Paul Berendt pleading poverty, the D’s are on their way to raising the money necessary; news reports claim the Democratic Governor’s Association, EMILY’s List and the Democratic National Committee have also made financial commitments. Whether the D’s ask for a full or partial recount depends on how much money they raise by the Friday deadline.
Either way, there is definitely going to be a hand recount.
[Hey visitor from Sound Politics, take a gander at this: Heads or tails… why we’ll never know who really won the governor’s race]
I think it’s good the tribes are getting politically involved and I’ll defend that… but I don’t understand their animosity towards Governor-elect Rossi and their interest in this.
Frankly, as I said in the last post: Either a) Gregoire concedes graciously and comes back another day or b) Rossi & Gregoire have a runoff election. B would make more sense… and is what it sounds like Ukraine will do to resolve their fiasco.
Oh and Erin Shannon of the BIAW: FUCK YOU, TOO! HOPE YOU GET A GALLON OF COAL FOR X-MAS!
Should be no surprise since the tribes are eager to stranglehold and monopoly on electronic scratch ticket machines (simpletons call them slots) and one way to do it is to buy Gregoire a win to Olympia. The tribes spent 6 million of their 800 million a year tax free revenue beating back 892 so what’s another few hundred thousand to buy Chris AKA Christine Gregoire the Mansion. It’s pretty obvious that key democrats are in the hip pocket of tribal casinos. The tribes know Rossi won’t just kiss their ass like the Demos and Gregoire will do and they don like it, and likely fear Rossi. The tribes are scared of another “Son of I-892” and may want preemptive legislation passed this session to crush any chance of anyone ever having a chance to touch their billion dollar a year enterprise. (by 2005)
Your “reliable source” is the Puget Sound Business Journal.
From last month.
Josef–You are usually as cool as the underside of a penguin!! Now you have to personalize your anger??? Unlike you. I guess I expected much more.
I also disagree with any sort of runoff election. Close only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades. It will never happen.
Josef–I agree with so much of what you usually post…are you just having a bad day today??
I think bmvaughn mistook the previous contributions from tribes to the Democratic Governors Association for independent expenditures for more recent considerations for the recount- unless Gregoire knew a month ago she’d need recount money…
What, there’s a “Dave” here too? Isn’t it enough that we have to tell “jim,” “jim p,” and “Jim King” apart? :)
Look: I’m a Rossi guy, through and through – I think he will be a tremendous governor at the time the state needs a pragmatic consensus builder..but…if she can raise the money to pay for a recount, be it cherrypicked or full – that is her right under Washington law, and she should not be criticized for doing it.
When the shit begins to fly with lawsuit after lawsuit from all sides, and acrimony builds beyond belief between the parties, spilling over and into the legislative session as they attempt to deal with yet another Democrat-led $1.6 BILLION defecit….remember – it was her choice to begin the…beguine. What happens in Washington State for the coming years rests squarely on the decision of Gregoire – not Dino, not Weepy Paul, not Chris Vance, not Dan Evans, not the BIAW or the Tribes…it is all on Christine Gregoire.
I am from Florida, I lived through it in 2000 and beyond…and folks, you don’t have any idea what this can do to a government and a necessary system of cooperation and consensus building to get things done.
Welcome to Hell.
Hmm. Unless the BSBJ was reporting the future, I kind of doubt it. The meeting, and the commitment, occurred yesterday.
No, Rossi will kiss their ass a different way. What the tribes (like the Democratic and Republican lobbyists who arranged the contribution) fear, is the unknown.
I find it funny that when people and organizations (like the BIAW) give large sums of cash to Republican campaigns and causes, well, that’s to be expected, because Republicans raise a lot of money. But when Democrats raise a big chunk of cash it is some kind of scandal.
I think there will be a full statewide recount. Funds are coming in strong, and I think it will be interesting to see what happens. Good luck!
What is that old slogan about money being more important than mothers milk in politics.
Well here we are. There has been a bit of a turnaround when it comes to fat cats and politics. Kerry kept up with Bush and in our state the cash has flowed like a river.
Did you all forget Microsoft just sent 18 billion in dividends to the sharholders in thestate of Washington. Lots into progressive pockets, I know a half dozen retired Mic. millionaires and they are all very democrat, a couple even Seattle radical.
There is an old newsreel interview with mother Rose Kennedy answering criticism about dumping a lot of Kennedy money into JFK’ s presidential bid. Rose sniffed, looked right into the camera and in that raspy determined voice, wondered why anyone would question a mothers support for her son running for president, and then added, after all it is my money. (paraphrase)
I for one welcome the recount, and will live with the result. No panic about the collapse of state govt. during the next three weeks.
Great historical before our very eyes political drama. One of these amazingly close elections was bound to happen, why not Washington?
Gregoire states the last recount was a tie. Bullshit. The definition of a tie is something being equal. 42 more for Rossi, is 42 more. Hence, NOT a tie. Gregoire will do nothing more than piss everyone off, and waste a huge amount of money over this. There is no honor in being a sore loser. Concede with grace. Christine has to date lost TWICE! Get over it. It’s time for a change in Olympia, away from the Gary Locke mentality, and 42 more of we citizens have said so. The people have spoken, and it is so. Period. Plus, all the latest opinion polls show that the vast majority agree she should concede, even most of the die-hard Democrats. Thanks for your time.
Well if we now elect by polls, the only mistake Gregoire made was not claiming victory when she had such a big lead early in the polls.
Screw the silly polls.
A recount is the lawful process offered the lawful candidates, any of them, in any race, faced with this exact situation. It really is quiter orderly and spelled out clearly.
If Gregoire wins, she should get along fine with the Dem conrolled legislature. Rossi will have a different set of problems, and his own well entrenched ultra right wing will be one of them. Just what does the Ellen Crasswell/Val Stevens/Pam Roach wing of the R’s have to say these days? Very silent, ominous.
Great comment Mark! I agree. Gregoire should concede.
Comment by Mr. Cynical-dy— 12/1/04 @ 12:43 pm
Well, I just felt the BIAW bitch had it coming. Figure that makes the blogmaster happy…
Also, I DO support a runoff. This game of recount after recount isn’t healthy for our democracy. And be forewarned – if Gregoire steals the election, I hope to God that we copycat the Ukranian approach.
Goldy, I agree with your #9 post. I think if they were smart, they could have called Gov’r-elect Rossi first…
Finally, to Comment by Peter A.— 12/1/04 @ 3:26 pm: Free advice, News Google Val Stevens. Don’t you worry – I’m laying down “SHUT UP VISCIOUS VAL” fire for my guy! Dino has no choice: He can side with the far right and watch this state turn so blue, he’ll be the only red man not on a reservation… (if that’s racist, I sincerely apologize) or he can be a moderate!
Hey- rerun the race? And if it is close again? Another rerun?
PLEASE! At least ban any more ads!!!!!
Anyway- any comment on the interesting info on unSound Politics from the Assistant Elections Director for Voter Services regarding the error factor- seems the machines screw up one out of a million, but the PEOPLE screw up in filling out the ballots one to two out of a hundred- those are the ballots kicked out to be human read…
Isn’t that what was done in the first recount?
Anyway, with legislators, lobbyists, etc., gathered in Oly today, no one was betting that Gregoire will be able to reverse the slim lead Rossi has- the general belief was that all the votes that could be found for her had been found in the first recount, and that gibes with the info from the SOS’s Pamela Floyd.
Oh- Democratic County Auditors are reportedly NOT real happy with Berendt and Gregoire for trashing them, and many are now hoping for a Rossi victory to vindicate the job they’ve done. Great for party unity…
Yipe! Just saw report on KING-TV that all of this is considered part of the cost of the general election, and on the hook if a full recount is not paid for by the Democrats is every local government that had an issue on the ballot…
Now, boys and girls the truth of the voting mchine accuracy in reporting the votes in the state of Washington exeeds the federal standard by one in a MILLION votes, not 1-2% as previously reported in this blog. Dont blame me for the truth, blame the federal government and John Carlson for that.
Josef—Perhaps you ought to call Ms. Shannon and if you keep sweet talkin’ her like you have been….maybe a date???? Just kidding!
Please Josef…get off of the runoff idea. We need too many improvements that have been unearthed by this fiasco to do it on such short notice. Again, close only counts in handgrenades and horseshoes. Also, anyone who thinks a machine is more biased than a couple thousand individuals is crazy. The machine was unbiased. The Dems are hoping for a chance for a loose cannon or two to do the “party loyalist” thing. I’m not saying their is some vast left-wing conspiracy. I am saying that with a couple thousand human beings, some bias will creep in…it’s inevitable. However, undeniable when you deal with human beings. I doubt all these vote counting machines got together and conspired for Rossi to win by 42 votes. I’ll bet Brent has thought it though!!
Remember, all vote counting machines undergo repeated logic and accuracy testing. If there are flaws in programming, it is detected….especially if the votes have been run through twice…independent runs.
Come…let us reason together.
Comment by Jim King— 12/1/04 @ 5:40 pm
I hate to say it, but that’s what I want – a “re-run.” But ONLY the top 2. If that makes me wear an Al hat, so be it. But if it’s what the voters voted for on 2 November and what’s good enough for Ukraine – then maybe it’s something worth trying now?
I mean, I haven’t seen anything better than ‘more ads’ as a case AGAINST it…
Comment by Mr. Cynical-dy— 12/1/04 @ 6:38 pm
You’re a real cynic. That said, I’m not worried about machines that counted correctly and accurately. I’m worried about the average Washingtonian accepting the result and for the new Gov’r to have a mandate – hence my cry for some reason and a runoff…
Also, Peter A really seems to feeling good about grabbing and squeezing that “Progressive” label close to his bosom as often as he can. Only 1 problem Pete…
To be a Progressive implies you are Progressing toward something. And for the life of me, I am unable to understand exactly what that is. For the most part, self-proclaimed Progressives are actually more like Digressives. They are not progressing toward anything…rather they are against virtually everything. CAVE people (Citizens Against Virtually Everything)!
Josef–As usual your intentions are good and most often practical…just not this time. Don’t worry about the average Washington citizen. Most of them are worried about feeding their families and earning a living or having fun. Few care to the level of those contributing to these blogs. Even with a runoff, the same morons will attack Rossi. However, most citizens will wish him good luck even without a runoff. Gregoire is the one who has a huge problem if she somehow wins a 3rd count and all those provisional ballot affadavits are scrutinized and Pauly-Whiney is caught exposing himself.
Wow–I just looked at the Helena Mt. Newspaper about the State House race that decisdes control. The Dem candidate is saying that even a voter connected 2 arrows and clearly X’d out the name of 1 of the candidates, that the vote shouldn’t count. And on a 5th vote, the voter squiggled out the name of a of the 2 arrows. SO MUCH FOR VOTER INTENT!!!! Read it and weep Goldy! I can’t wait to hear your spin on this one. They only had to go thru 3000+ votes in that District. Come on now Goldy. This is a true test of your intellectual honesty vs. partisanship. I await with baited breath!!
Josef- I’m just not real willing to turn the election decision over to 1) the Libertarians, 2) those 502 folk in King County that wrote in Ron Sims, 3) the thousands who didn’t care enough to vote for Governor the first time. I think, philosophically, that we are mixing two issues here- should we require a majority to be elected, thus having a run-off if no one gets a majority; and how do we arrive at the right outcome when the election is this close.
And if we have to have a run-off, how does that affect timelines, transition, and Inauguration Day?
FYI, I am working on a blog entries that addresses the issue of the relative accuracy of the various counting technologies. I hope to post it later tonight. I will explain the difference between “residual votes” and “tabulation errors.” My discussion will be information, but my conclusion is bound to piss off a few people.
FINALLY, a pithy response by Comment by Jim King— 12/1/04 @ 7:11 pm
a) I understand your point, but my response is that although I agree with you that idiots shouldn’t run the state – I believe 1) We need to put this campaign to bed and it’s becoming obvious that a Christine Concession is out of the option… and 2) We need to make peace with the situation.
b) As to transition, I am going to split this into 2 parts:
PART 1 – NOW: I would propose the Lt. Governor take over the helm until March. Have the runoff around mid-February.
PART 2 – FROM NOW: Since the parties will probably go to conventions, I-872 will automatically create a runoff (I, of course, voted in the minority against it).
Hopefully, this deals with your issues :-).
Runoff is a terrible idea. How many times should I vote for someone until it “counts”? Not everyone spends their lives watching and debating politics on horsesass and soundpolitics … people have actual lives. We vote, the government counts them accurately, we live with the results. Pretty simple.
Josef- aside from the fact we couldn’t enact your proposals into law for this mess, I am still uncertain whether you propose this because we have a close race, or because neither candidate has a majority. When writing law, one has to write for the universe of possibilities. So-
If we only had two candidates, separated by only 42 votes, would we have a run-off?
If we had multiple candidates, one with 49.99% of the vote, the second place candidate at 45.36% of the vote, do we have a run-off?
And Goldy- please be sure to take into account the clarification from the SOS regarding machine error rates…
Couldn’t John Kerry kick in some from his pile of the $15 million left unspent from presidential election?
I’ll get to it in detail later, but the 1 in 250,000 and 1 in 1,000,000 rates people are talking about are the federal and state certification standards for failure rates on counting equipment. But according to the CalTech/MIT Voter Technology Project, the “residual vote rate” (the most common measure of accuracy and performance) in the real world is 1 to 2 votes in 100, depending on the technology.
It’s not the counting equipment, but the way voters relate to the technologies that most impacts accuracy. That’s why electronic voting machines have the highest residual vote rates, and hand-counted paper ballots amongst the lowest.
More later….
Not to sound like my mind is made up, but…the statistics that we cite should take into account the facts of this unique situation. And one of the unpredictable elements is King County’s need to hire hundreds of temps to do this hand count. How does the use of County-hired temps affect that accuracy of the count? It seems doubtful that the County will be checking their relevant attributes before hiring them, such as attention span, partisanship, ethics, etc. that could affect the results of the count. Will they all be mebers of the Public Employee union? I for one lost all confidence in the coming hand recount when I mulled over these variables. These unknowns will be tough (or impossible) to factor into your statistics.
Ah, so you are going to take the voters “intent” and trying to force the issue as machine error NOT. Goldy if you determine the “intent” of the voter without the voter clearly marking the ballot as the childproof instructions in multiple language WITH examples, then you are just as guilty of tampering with the elections as a person that picked up several blank ballots and filled all of them in and turned them in as legitamat votes.
Subject: Illegal Immigrants
Canada Deals With Bush-Dodgers
The flood of American liberals sneaking across the border into Canada
has intensified in the past week, sparking calls for increased patrols
to
stop the illegal immigration.
The re-election of President Bush is prompting the exodus among
left-leaning citizens who fear they’ll soon be required to hunt, pray
and
agree with Bill O’Reilly.
Canadian border farmers say it’s not uncommon to see dozens of
sociology professors, animal-rights activists and Unitarians crossing
their
fields at night.
“I went out to milk the cows the other day, and there was a Hollywood
producer huddled in the barn,” said Manitoba farmer Red Greenfield,
whose acreage borders North Dakota.
The producer was cold, exhausted and hungry.
“He asked me if I could spare a latte and some free-range chicken.
When I said I didn’t have any, he left. Didn’t even get a chance to
show
him my screenplay, eh?”
In an effort to stop the illegal aliens, Greenfield erected higher
fences,
but the liberals scaled them. So he tried installing speakers that
blare
Rush Limbaugh across the fields. “Not real effective,” he said.
“The liberals still got through, and Rush annoyed the cows so much they
wouldn’t give milk.”
Officials are particularly concerned about smugglers who meet liberals
near the Canadian border, pack them into Volvo station wagons, drive
them
across the border, and leave them to fend for themselves.
“A lot of these people are not prepared for rugged conditions,” an
Ontario border patrolman said. “I found one carload without a drop of
drinking water. They did have a nice little Napa Valley cabernet,
though.”
When liberals are caught, they’re sent back across the border, often
wailing loudly that they fear retribution from conservatives. Rumors
have
been circulating about the Bush administration establishing
re-education
camps in which liberals will be forced to drink domestic beer and watch
NASCAR.
In the days since the election, liberals have turned to
sometimes-ingenious ways of crossing the border.
Some have taken to posing as senior citizens on bus trips to buy cheap
Canadian prescription drugs. After catching a half-dozen young vegans
disguised in powdered wigs, Canadian immigration authorities began
stopping buses and quizzing the supposed senior-citizen passengers.
“If they can’t identify the accordion player on The Lawrence Welk
Show, we get suspicious about their age,” an official said.
Canadian citizens have complained that the illegal immigrants are
creating an organic-broccoli shortage and renting all the good Susan
Sarandon movies.
“I feel sorry for American liberals, but the Canadian economy just
can’t
support them ,” an Ottawa resident said.
“How many art-history majors does one country need?”
In an effort to ease tensions between the United States and Canada,
Vice
President Dick Cheney met with the Canadian ambassador and pledged
that the administration would take steps to reassure liberals, a source
close to Cheney said.
“We’re going to have some Peter, Paul & Mary concerts.
And we might put some endangered species on postage stamps.
The president is determined to reach out.”
Chuck, blow off. No one is guilty of anything except on line chatting. You need to read the laws, listen to the explanations of how ballots are handled and the some of the interesting summations of math, mistakes, and machines. And voila, elections, all elections, their results and processes, including this exotic species.
There will be many surprises, most trifle, and who knows what is going to show itself once those tons of ballots are fanned one more time. The math of possibilites is daunting. Going to find some absentees with baby poop on and something a dog chewed, just for starters. How many human errors or machine, during a recount of over two million items, intersected with many variables, political side show of the highes order, ringside seats. Your comments are passionate but suggest, go join a counting board and become an observer. Will do you some good.
By the way, determining the intent of the voter if in quetion for any number of reasons, is part of the mandate of election law.
You believe it is arcane and mystical, seem to me to spelled out quite clearly in rather plain English. Quite orderly and applies to all vote counting in the state. If you have trust issues, that is your problem.
Many times I myself will when voting will set the pencil tip on a certain canidate, after thinking will decide that I dont want to vote for any one of the canidate at that point I will leave that part blank, I dont want ANYONE determining who I intended to vote for in a case such as that. And by the way, I tend to try not to get personal or flame people and try to adress the facts as I see them, but Peter A it seems you get a bit personal so I wont “blow off” so blow me!
Chuck, I pity you. Don’t you care about your own credibility on vote-counting issues? You keep going even though you know you’re off base: “Ah, so you are going to take the voters “intent” and trying to force the issue as machine error NOT.”
This issue was addressed yesterday. Washington counts votes when the voter’s intent is clear, regardless of whether or not the mark meets your perfectionist standards, Chuck. You left one crabby comment (so you clearly read what I cited) but you didn’t offer any real response to that fact, which isn’t all that surprising because it’s hard to argue that your opinion trumps the statutory law of Washington. It won’t fly in this comment thread either.
If you want your views to be respected, you might start by actually following the links I provided yesterday morning. In particular, to make sense of today’s ridiculous rhetoric about “machine error” and counts accurate to one vote in a million, read this detailed analysis of the many ways correctly-functioning optical scan machines can miscount votes. Machines aren’t very smart…they get confused by stray marks. (Like, for instance, the “hesitation mark” you just described — a machine might read that as a vote, but a trained person [under heavy scrutiny] won’t.) [Got an issue with that? Read that article before you reply.] This is the real world, Chuck, elections don’t match lab test conditions and people don’t always make perfect marks on their ballots. So suck it up, wait for the expected manual (i.e., visual) recount, and have a little faith in our process and trust in the citizens of Washington who are conducting this election. They’re honorable folks.
Update time- John Kerry is coming through with $200,000 for Chris’ roll of the dice, and if this isn’t decided by January 12, Gary Locke remains as Governor. No word as to whether that means Co-Governor Tim Eyman also continues to serve with him… Lordy, cannot we be rid of the Locke-Eyman administration!
For Something Completely
Different
Different to you, maybe. I’ve blogged on Instant Runoff Voting a couple times already.
Different than what we have, that’s all. Different and better.
David, you have stated “Machines aren’t very smart…they get confused by stray marks. (Like, for instance, the “hesitation mark” you just described – a machine might read that as a vote, but a trained person”
That very statement goes against the facts, the machines EXEED the federal requirements of 1 per million. The only thing that brings that actual FACT down is the people factoring in the “intent” of the voter, you seem to be tripping all over that very fact in your defence of yourself. I have read the references you list and they do the same thing. Ever occur to you that if it is black and white with stripes, it might be a zebra?
Comment by Jim King — 12/1/04 @ 8:18 pm
No and Yes – because 50 percent plus one means a mandate to me.
Gary Locke to continue to serve until this whole mess is solved? God help us all!
King County is corrupt. I have no faith in them. The whole system is biased. If they want to count all the votes, why don’t they send all the soldiers new ballots and give them time to cast them again? I am sure king county officials were fair in their judments, and that noone in King County cast more than one ballot! Yeah right! We all know that liberals are much more likely to forge more than one vote!
Seattle = Corruption
King County = Evil
They both can go to hell!