When I saw the piece in today’s Seattle Times about foreign language ballots, I just knew this was something our good friend Stefan would weigh in on, and sure enough, he didn’t disappoint.
The federal Voting Rights Act is scheduled to expire this year, and with it the section that requires ballots be printed in foreign languages when minority speakers comprise a minimum percentage of eligible voters. It is under this provision that King County prints ballots in Chinese, and three other WA counties print ballots in Spanish.
Stefan’s take was pretty much what I expected:
The foreign language ballot provisions of the Voting Rights Act should be allowed to expire next year. Universal voting in English is central to our melting pot. Let alone the expense and distraction of duplicating infrastructure to cater to tiny minorities. The last thing this country needs is to cater to linguistic minorities and give immigrants more incentives not to assimilate.
‘Cause you know, nothing threatens our democracy more than “linguistic minorities” like, um… my great-grandmother, who emigrated from Eastern Europe as a teen, worked hard all her life, raised a family, helped start and run a small retail shop that fed and clothed three generations… and mostly spoke Yiddish until her dying day. Yeah.. helping people like my bubbie vote represents everything that’s wrong with America.
This was exactly the sort of sentiment I’ve come to expect from Stefan, who consistently opposes any effort to make the franchise more accessible. Of course, his position reflects a certain cynical, electoral calculus, but I think this passionate opposition to multilingual ballots — as echoed by some of the comments in his thread — is more… how shall we say… genuine.
For example, one commenter expressed distress at what she called “uncertified ‘photo-copied’ Americans,” lamenting:
We have enough of the Little China, Little Italy and the Little India districts…. Will we need to create a Little America district someday?
Well, where else will we find all those great American restaurants?
And of course, my favorite comment had to be the one that derided our nation’s tolerance of non-native speakers:
We give them no incentive at all to become part of what had made the USA great: E Pluribus Unum.
Yup… I can’t think of a better way to argue the primacy of the English language than to do it in Latin.
And then there is the argument that multilingual ballots are unnecessary because English proficiency is a prerequisite of naturalization. Well, that’s simply not true. Our naturalization laws include broad exemptions due to age or disability; for example, English proficiency is waived for those over 50, with 20 years of permanent residence. Which I suppose explains why the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services official Guide to Naturalization is printed in five languages… including Tagalog.
Personally, I’m willing to consider a cost-benefit analysis in determining whether translating and printing multilingual ballots is worth the expense in time and money. Obviously, if there wasn’t a point of diminishing returns, we’d be printing ballots in dozens of languages.
But I find it hard to accept the assertion that making ballots accessible to non-English speakers somehow constitutes bad public policy. The right to vote is the most basic right of citizenship, and to withhold it as an incentive towards forced, cultural assimilation, strikes me as downright un-American.
We already print the voter’s pamphlet in at least six different foreign languages. Certainly, if someone is better at Spanish, Chinese, Russian, etc. than English, they can read all about the candidates and ballot measures in their native language and make their decision. Why do we have to print up multiple copies of the ballot in several different languages for every precinct? Surely, someone can read the ballot well enough to recognize the English letters for the name of the candidate of their choice, or hopefully will at least know the difference between the English words “YES” and “NO” when voting on the ballot measures.
Not to worry, all the “undocumented workers” will still be able to tell the (D) from the (R).
We’re making progress, Goldy. People of Stefan’s mentality used to lynch the Chinese. Now he only wants to melt them. http://www.nickyee.com/daedalu.....php?page=4
1
“Why do we have to print up multiple copies of the ballot in several different languages for every precinct?”
Why not? The expense is minor, the inconvenience negligible. It’s hard to see why anyone would want to take this away, unless they’re racists who want to keep non-English speaking citizens from voting.
Seattle voters should be forced to vote on ballots printed only in the language of the Duwamish indians.
“People came to become what they could not become elsewhere – heroes and millionaires. The early, undeveloped economy caused many inconveniences. Certain common tasks required a great deal of time to complete. Many Chinese workers took advantage of this entrepreneurial opportunity by providing a service that dramatically enhanced the quality of life. Providing this service was no trivial task, but involved tedious repetition, painstaking attention to detail, and often consumed most of their waking hours in a small room in front of the same machine. Nevertheless, their hard work did pay off. Some became wealthy and soon the Chinese referred to this place as the Gold Mountain.
“Yet their frugal industriousness incited others, particularly the Westerners who had arrived earlier. This triggered a period of systematic abuse and humiliation targeting the Chinese. Legal constraints were created in an attempt to put these Chinese workers out of work. Individual Chinese workers were harassed and sometimes physically assaulted. Mob lynching followed and massacres have been documented.
“This story sounds incredibly familiar, but the year is 1870 and I am, of course, talking about the genesis of the Chinese laundry shops ‘yi-shan-guan’) during and after the California Gold Rush.
“During the Gold Rush, dirty laundry was routinely shipped to Hong Kong (among other Asian cities) partly because laundry was seen as demeaning domestic work …. The turn-around time for this process was 4 months. Immigrant Chinese workers took advantage of this opportunity. The Chinese laundry business, as it bloomed, was suddenly seen as a threat by Americans. Laws were enacted in 1870 that tried to cripple Chinese laundry businesses (as well as preventing the Chinese from gaining US citizenship – which effectively barred them from voting).
“Documented mob lynching and pillaging of Chinatowns occurred in 1871 and 1877 (See ‘The Chinese in America’ by Iris Chang, 2003, for more on this topic).”
http://www.nickyee.com/daedalu.....php?page=4
Allowing people who don’t read English to vote more easily is not some great burden. Whether it’s Seattle’s Chinatown, or Yakima’s hispanic population, people who are legally registered to vote shouldn’t have barriers. Fuck Stefan.
My human daughter’s grandfather fled from China to escape the Maoists, became a U.S. citizen, and voted. So on behalf of my entire family, and in honor of my human daughter’s ethnic heritage, here’s what I want to say to Stefan:
FUCK YOU, YOU RACIST BASTARD.
Hey Stefan, I know you read this blog, so I want to tell you something:
FUCK YOU, YOU UN-AMERICAN, BIGOTED, RACIST BASTARD.
@1
Hey Richard, I saved a “fuck you” for you:
FUCK YOU, RICHARD.
I mean, isn’t his wife Korean or some shit? What about her parents? Learn fucking Engrish or you can’t vote? Fuck that shit.
Post #1 illustrates why Democrats have to win elections and Republicans should NOT be allowed to govern our state or nation.
Republicans are unfit to govern. They are sociopaths.
I didn’t see “Sharkansky” on the ship roster of the Mayflower. Unless you are a native American, we’re all immigrants, yes?
Hey Stefan — in case you missed my post above:
FUCK YOU, YOU RACIST ASSHOLE.
14
“Sharkansky” sounds pretty goddam Russian to me. Is Stefan a commie? Who let him into this country, anyway?
Hey Stefan, in case you can’t read what I posted above: ебать ты
Been a long time since I studied Russian in college, but I haven’t forgotten that one!
Studied Russian in college? Commie bastard! How dare you learn the ways of our sworn enemies!
To the gallows with you, Rabbit!
19
They can’t do anything to me for studying Russian in college that they won’t do to me anyway for being a Democrat.
“Jim Crow” means the same thing in any other language.
language, which is… Oh right. Don’t have one, never have. So I guess that means we print it in whatever our citizens need it printed in. Sometimes that’s spanish, sometimes english, sometimes russian, whatever it takes.
Welcome to America. Voters wanted.
I have to agree that making the ballots understandable to immigrants has nothing directly to do with illegal immigration, and isnt a problem as far as I can see, as long as they are translated accurately.
Last year, “David Irons” was translated into Cantonese to mean “He who is mad and works with metal”.
“Ron Sims” was translated to “He who hugs often.”
Pretty good I think
Wabbit @ 17
Good memory of Russian vocabulary. Too bad you didn’t remember proper Russian grammar. Wrong case for the second person singular pronoun. You changed the meaning from being an insult to making Stefan a really macho dude! Remember — case is everythin in Russian, while syntax (word order) really doesn’t count for so much.
Ёбаный кролик! Очень хочу кастрировать кролика!
I have to say, Stefan’s comments were pretty poorly thought out, even for him. Maybe he was too busy filling out his NCAA bracket to really think through the issues…
I mean come on…”Until they finally changed the phone system, you couldn’t even call into King County Elections without having to listen to a Chinese greeting. Some key election forms are available only as an English/Chinese bilingual document, making them so cluttered that they are needlessly confusing for the 1.2 million English speaking voters.”
Please.
Why should I be required to sign a form containing words in a language that I do not understand in order to be able to vote? I should be able to complete a form containing only English words, especially if the form is required to exercise such a fundamental constitutional right. Take the Chinese and other foreign languages off of all official forms.
Why does something called ‘Voting Rights Act’ have an expiration date?
In your case Richard, you do not need to vote. Most of your ilk just rubber stamp the r. No intelligence, no thought, no brains,
Of all the issues I thouhg had been resolved in favor of democracy and justice —- God, where do these poeple come from?
Given a little crack, like roaches, they just crawl out in the night.
I rejoice when I see people voting. Printed matter which faciltates that cannot, repeat, CANNOT be a bad thing. These cretins are like a bunch of back country — never been to the big city hicks — but worse. They have been to the big city. And are sacred of other cultures, prefering to stay in a black hole of ignorance and small mindedness.
On my moms side, the Posey line, there is a land grant recorded from Patrick Henry, Gov. of Virginia, reward for distinguished service in the Revolutionary War. My father was born in slavic Europe.
It is impossible to claim to love this ountry and insult citizens with so callous and disrespectful blather. We are an international country, must be an international country – and offering a simple assist to voting by printing non english material is just fine with me.
My blueblood revolutionary ancestors concurr. So does my immigrant father’s family who spoke three languages.
My great grandmother quit the Daughters of the American Revolution along with Eleanor Roosevelt. A great true story and historic statement from that glorious first lady about DAR’s racist policies. Another post.
It is not just a matter of voting for candidates. Our ballots contain many tax measures and initiatives that are hard enough for me to understand in my native language, English. Even if one has the proficiency to pass tests written in English, their understanding is still likely best in their native tongue. Voters should be as informed about what they are voting on as possible, even if some jingoists have to tolerate the presence of words they don’t understand.
The current system works.
the 8% rule is good enough to supply ballots and info to those who can read more easily in their native language than in english. An informed electorate may inded be anethema to repubs but they should note that many of the hispanic voters in the central part of the state are insanely socialy conservative due to the machinations of the catholic church in that area.
The legislature barely held off a proposal to lower the percentage of non english voters to trigger a language printing, down to 3 1/2 percent.
This would have cost many millions. The proponants themselves admitted they could not even estimate the increase in printing cost accurately.
We can live with what we have.
Also note to repubs. My ancestors came to this country in 1640 on one side and 1780 on the other. They both spoke english as well as french and german when they got here.
Suggesting that non english speakers are somehow less Americans than you, is laughable.
Pope @ 1 asks:
“Why do we have to print up multiple copies of the ballot in several different languages for every precinct? Surely, someone can read the ballot well enough to recognize the English letters for the name of the candidate of their choice, or hopefully will at least know the difference between the English words “YES” and “NO” when voting on the ballot measures.”
Pope:
We do it because we can. We do it because it is the right thing to do. We do it because whatever helps people vote who otherwise might not vote is a good thing.
And best of all, we do it to rub the right wingers’ faces in shit. How does it feel?
When will they start printing ballots in “Ghetto”?
Next thing you know they will be attaching a Hip-Hop CD to ‘esplain da hole fing”.
Goldy, all you are supporting leads to a very divided country.
You want dual language like Belgium, or Canada, or worse, places like Yugoslavia..?
Yeah my ancestors spoke no English but they did fine and got out of the ghetto pretty quick.
No habla espanol
they’re racists who want to keep non-English speaking citizens from voting
Since being able to speak English is a prerequisite to gaining citizenship, it is obvious that you are upset over an inconvenience to illegal aliens, not “non-English speaking citizens.”
How can we have a functional society when the citizens cannot communicate in a common language? I have no problem with businesses translating for their customers. But, govt should work in the language of the country for matters that apply to citizens only.
This is meant as an inclusive exercise. Enabling citizens to continue to function in their native language, and be cut off from English, only reinforces the divides that we currently have. The public discourse happens in english. To not understand it is to not understand the issue of the day. Yes, it can be translated. But all translation is interpretation, and subject to the bias of the person doing the translating.
I’m just saying – I don’t think it is too much to ask that those who want to be citizens of this country learn to exist in the society as full function members, and learn the language.
The “English Only” crowd is so ignorant of the history of our country it makes me laugh. I am not talking about the general we-are-all-immigrants but about the absolute facts of our country’s past in regards to immigrants.
Pretty much every single immigrant group that has shown up in this country from areas where English was not the native language follow a similar pattern.
1st generation speak their native language almost exclusively. They tend to establish their own neighborhoods and sometimes their own cities as well where their own language is THE language. There were entire counties in the Midwest that spoke only German and all county business was conducted in German a mere 100 years ago for example.
By the second generation, you tend to have a pretty bilingual existence though they often still live in the same neighborhoods and communities.
By the third generation, you tend to see a bit more of the “melting pot†effect and linguistically anyway, the groups tend to speak English as their primary language.
didn’t see “Sharkansky” on the ship roster of the Mayflower. Unless you are a native American, we’re all immigrants, yes?
Commentby Belltowner— 3/13/06@ 11:49 pm
Great point Belltowner! The first requirement when you enter this country legally is learn English. The second requirement is to ship excess baggage back to home of origin I am not interested in you culture and I do not want to make it apart of this country. This country is a melting port of many people and cultures, and you can enjoy your own in the confines of your home. Holland just made it a requirement to speak Dutch and enter their country legally and started deporting all those who do not meet their standards. I heard that Denmark is following suite and our great friends in France is considering the same.
What do all the ReThugians say?
America, love it or leave it.
If they don’t like our country of many cultures, then they are free to leave anytime and go somewhere ethnic clensing is keeping the country pure.
Documented mob lynching and pillaging of Chinatowns occurred in 1871 and 1877 (See ‘The Chinese in America’ by Iris Chang, 2003, for more on this topic).”
http://www.nickyee.com/daedalu.....php?page=4
Commentby Roger Rabbit— 3/13/06@ 11:42 pm
Roger what you really mean in a nutshell is they were slaves like the Irish and those folks sold in Africa and ship around the world for cheep labor. Everyone was to be given his or her Freedom after the American Civil War were they not? You know I saw the Irish working in a sweatshop the other day. Lets quite crying in our beer, suck it up, and smell the roses.
Michael@ 37
“Since being able to speak English is a prerequisite to gaining citizenship, it is obvious that you are upset over an inconvenience to illegal aliens, not “non-English speaking citizens.â€
No Mike, you are wrong. If you are born in the United States you are a citizen. If you are born to United States citizens abroad you are a citizen. There is no English requirement there. It is sometimes a requirement to be naturalized, but not to be a citizen.
Perhaps you should pay more attention to the constitution of this great country rather than your own jingoistic fantasies.
If they don’t like our country of many cultures, then they are free to leave anytime and go somewhere ethnic cleansing is keeping the country pure.
Commentby LEFT is RIGHT— 3/14/06@ 8:09 am
It is being done in California today shit for brains, the southern part of the state speaks only Spanish not English and most of them are not US citizens. You know like Yugoslavia when the Alabamians cross the borders in groves and refuse to learn the native language. Ethnic cleansing is an expression the Alabamians used to save their Political Correct Ass from the Serbs. Today it is conceivable that the UN would force us to give up California the same way if the state went into a civil war. What has to be done is ship all illegal aliens back where they came from and let them enter this country the proper way. Granit this country would look like the population of New Orleans after the storm but we will adjust to the changes.
re 6: The same sort of restrictive laws were enacted more recently on telemarketing because many individuals were actually pulling themselves up by the bootstraps by using it as a marketing program.
“Land of opportunity”. Feh!
Also note to repubs. My ancestors came to this country in 1640 on one side and 1780 on the other. They both spoke english as well as french and german when they got here.
Suggesting that non english speakers are somehow less Americans than you, is laughable.
Commentby Ken In Seattle— 3/14/06@ 6:02 am
On the ancestors note is was my ancestors who help conquer this country and so goes the spoils of war. So give it all back to the Indians and I still win Ken, we are also part Indian.
“Alabamians” That’s a good one, Klake. You appear to have your racial\ethnic xenophobic purists mixed up.
@43 Technically you are correct. However, do you have any statisctics on how many people born overseas to US citizens who speak no English are trying to vote? I doubt if you can point to a single case. By the way, my son was born in Korea. He is a US citizen. And he speaks English…
We need ten million Mexicans to leave Baja Mexico and move to Seattle. All will need free everything. Enjoy, RR, as your pension will need to be cut by two thirds to pay for the illegal’s social services and medical care! [BTW, it’s snowing here in Western Pennsylvania.]
I still can’t find where in the constitution it uses the word ‘english’ or, for that matter, anything about language requirements at all. I do see things about ‘equal protection’, ‘due process’ and the ‘right to petition the government for a redress of grievances’. Kind of interesting how well those framers (and post civil-war legislators) worked things out, am I right? Or were they wrong?
I’m a pretty forgiving guy, and I enjoy civilized discourse and honestly listening and considering the arguments of conservatives (it’s how I came to respect and understand Hayek and believe in free-market economics, for instance), but I don’t see a single argument that makes sense for excluding american citizens from voting because of the linguistic signs they use to process external stores of value. How is it not closed-minded fear- (or even hate-) mongering? Shit, I’m German by blood, my great-grandparents spoke not a lick ‘o english, and it’s such a tired, hackneyed point, but that’s how it was for everyone else, too.
I worked on a special-election down in Kent last year where we called voters to let them know ballots arrived, and there were so many people who would refuse to vote because of the chinese balloting that was also provided. It caused no end to confusion on my part — why was it so scary to them? What about their beliefs was so threatened? What were their beliefs, period? Thank g-d for the elderly woman who needed someone to talk to one day and cried on the phone to me when she told me about the love of her life who had died in World War II to fight for the inclusion she now saw on the ballot in her hands, and how seeing it, in a way, made it all worth while to her. That’s a belief I can take pride in.
So are you saying that we should get rid of all statutes and ordinances, and use only the Constitution as law?
I’m saying that, and maybe I’m getting this wrong, but the constitution is supreme, and all other laws devolve from there, and should a law contrevene that constitution, it is null and void. We’ve been in agreement about this point for awhile now, haven’t we?
Thank g-d for the elderly woman who needed someone to talk to one day and cried on the phone to me when she told me about the love of her life who had died in World War II to fight for the inclusion she now saw on the ballot in her hands, and how seeing it, in a way, made it all worth while to her. That’s a belief I can take pride in.
Commentby corpus_juris— 3/14/06@ 9:28 am
corpus_juris question was that her ballot or her husbands? If it was her husbands did she vote for him?
I agree with Richard Pope. In fact we should enact a law. We could call it the Pope test. It would involve a swatch of cloth the pale color of Righard’s pointy little head and if you match up OK then you proceed to step two where a recording of Richard blathering on is played. If the potential voter wrinkles up their nose in distaste then they are smart enough to vote and move on to step three where they are forced to read two Pope posts out loud. If people all around wrinkle their noses in distaste then the post was read clearly and the person gets to vote.
I mean really Richard what a crock of shit. Every living being who has a legal right to vote should be afforded equal access and this includes freedom from any intimidation or hazing what so ever.
“Alabamians” That’s a good one, Klake. You appear to have your racial\ethnic xenophobic purists mixed up.
Commentby J.V. Stalin(just another dead Rossi voter)— 3/14/06@ 8:50 am
Great point J.V. Stalin Alabamians does not equal Albanians, what a slam to those folks in Alabama. Sorry for the total disrepect to those great and respectful Alabamians.
corpus_juris question was that her ballot or her husbands? If it was her husbands did she vote for him?
Commentby klake— 3/14/06@ 10:06 am
I’m so glad you could not-at-all-transparently try to respin this as a ‘remember how rossi really did win!’ issue. You’ve got a knack for subletly. And seriously, being an idiot. Yes, you’re right, it was the “love of her life’s” (I never said husband, and I didn’t want to pry when she was sharing) ballot, and she’d been voting for him since V-J day. WTF?
Then there is Vern Witte who we all know is a long time politico in the Rossi right wing up in Sammamish and voted for his deceased wife and then claimed that the ballot must have been stolen. Riiiigggghhhttt.
If a legal citizen does not have the rudimentary skills needed to read the ballot, how can that person vote in an informed manner?
Why are you all so intent on keeping immigrants isolated and ignorant? Shouldn’t we be doing whatever we can to integrate them into our society, rather than forcing them to stay in their homes and communites?
I would never be so presumptuous to go to France or Japan, become a citizen, and demand that they provide to me what I need in English.
body@ 56 Well, all the illegal votes in 2004 were for Rossi so it is hard to tell.
In any case, America is not great because we speak a certain language. We are great because we have set up a system that tries to reward people for what they do, not who they are.
Now, we all know that there are those who try and restrict this freedom at every turn, and they have some success. We have seen people try and limit the freedoms to compete based on what color their skin is, who they love, what religious beliefs they profess and, today, what language they speak.
As a country we have tried to alleviate the inequities to some degree over time, but to uphold the grand experiment of equality and opportunity for all -regardless of where you come from or who you are- that our country’s founders began, takes constant vigilance.
There are always those that will fight to preserve their own special privileges that come from having more money and power. Or perhaps they come from the dominant culture and speak the right language with the right accent. People in power will always want to stay in power I suppose.
But this country is about resisting that impulse and preserving the individual’s ability to succeed even if they are not a part of whatever aristocracy that currently reigns.
I would never be so presumptuous to go to France or Japan, become a citizen, and demand that they provide to me what I need in English.
Commentby Janet S— 3/14/06@ 10:26 am
Janet I have been there and they would insult in the worse manner until you learn their language. Then they would ignore because you was not a native.
by Goldy, 03/13/2006, 10:40 PM
“Personally, I’m willing to consider a cost-benefit analysis in determining whether translating and printing multilingual ballots is worth the expense in time and money. Obviously, if there wasn’t a point of diminishing returns, we’d be printing ballots in dozens of languages.”
I thought you wanted to go to all mail voting. Would currently registered voters need to re-register to indicate language that the ballot be printed in? How do you easily get this message out to non-English speakers?
Or will they print a multilingual ballot, like the instructions that come with toys? If the “butterfly ballot” in Florida was so confusing and disenfranchised voters, I can’t imagine what people would say about a multi-lingual ballot.
Sending multiple ballots would only provide more opportunity for fraud.
But this country is about resisting that impulse and preserving the individual’s ability to succeed even if they are not a part of whatever aristocracy that currently reigns.
Commentby Nindid— 3/14/06@ 10:32 am
Nindid that is a mouth full of shit.
Janet@ 58 “If a legal citizen does not have the rudimentary skills needed to read the ballot, how can that person vote in an informed manner?”
In case you missed it above, speaking English is NOT a requirement for citizenship.
So to answer your question, the citizen DOES have the “rudimentary skills needed to read the ballot,” just not in English.
The government should take reasonable steps to accommodate them, and if 8% of the population speaks whatever language then the government should work to allow them to function as any other citizen. In fact, why the hell would you even consider barring them from voting based on language?
If you want to discuss the best way to teach English as a second language in public schools, fine.
If you want to look at the best ways to handle teaching immigrants about American democracy and institutions so they can fully function as citizens, fine.
But if you simply think that we should bar anyone from citizenship because they don’t speak, think, or believe as you do, then THAT is un-American.
If a legal citizen does not have the rudimentary skills needed to read the ballot, how can that person vote in an informed manner?
Why are you all so intent on keeping immigrants isolated and ignorant? Shouldn’t we be doing whatever we can to integrate them into our society, rather than forcing them to stay in their homes and communites?
I would never be so presumptuous to go to France or Japan, become a citizen, and demand that they provide to me what I need in English.
Commentby Janet S— 3/14/06@ 10:26 am
Yes, you’re right, we on the left are keeping immigrants down by allowing them to understand their ballots. Shocking.
Here’s what I want you to do, Janet. Click to open this voters guide. Now, as a legal citizen, without looking up the english version, tell me a policy posistion made by Phil Fortunato. Can’t read it? That’s ok, JUST LEARN CHINESE.
No, do it! I’ll wait! I’m sure you could learn it in time for, say, November 2nd. And if not, you could always just guess.
and ssuming that becoming informed on political issues can only occur in english is utterly hillarious. You really proved your point with that example.
“I would never be so presumptuous to go to France or Japan, become a citizen, and demand that they provide to me what I need in English.”
Well, first off, that’s great. Go ahead and do that. There are plenty of immigrants that do just that here re: english. But that’s flawed because you’re looking at nations that love to trumpet their cultural and ethnic homogeny. This is a nation of new blood from around the world. We have a duty to accept these people in to full citizenship, which, as I said before, legally and politically HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LANGUAGE. Seriously, find me where in the constitution is says you can be denied the substantive ability to vote thanks to how you speak.
Nindid – there is a world of difference between being discriminated for what you look like, which you have no control over, versus your behavior. You have a responsibility to learn the local language if you want to be a functioning member of the local society. If you want to be a citizen of the US, what is so hard about learning the language of that country?
This isn’t about discrimination. It is about rights and responsibilities. It is also about keeping our society cohesive, rather than splintering apart.
In my local school, we have many immigrants (about 30%). Within 6 months, these students are fluent in English. Why? Because they have to be in order to be successful, and that is why they are in this country – to be successful. No one gripes about being discriminated against because Math is in English. Yes, services are provided to get them that far, but they recognize that this is a bridge, not a permenant state.
@63 If even 1% of the population is US Citizens born abroad to US Citizens, but don’t speak English, but want to vote anyway, then by all means print all the foreign language ballots you want. I am just asking you to provide one example of such a person.
Yeah my ancestors spoke no English but they did fine and got out of the ghetto pretty quick.
You realize that back in the day, we had a much larger porportion of bilingual ed schools than we do today? Of course, they were German/English schools and a lot of them were just German speaking schools.
There’s a lot of historical revisionism going on in the right, idealizing their great grandparents as speaking English as soon as they got off the boat and never besmirching their children with their native tongue.
We’re going through the same thing that happened a hundred years ago… people who are already here being prejudiced against immigrants they’ve decided aren’t integrating fast enough. Back then, it was the Chinese, Irish and Italians. Today it’s Mexicans.
Janet @ 58:
Why are you all so intent on keeping immigrants isolated and ignorant? Shouldn’t we be doing whatever we can to integrate them into our society, rather than forcing them to stay in their homes and communites?
Janet @ 65:
This isn’t about discrimination. It is about rights and responsibilities. It is also about keeping our society cohesive, rather than splintering apart.
Your inconsistencies are showing, dearie. Better cover those up. Once again, it’s exemplary that you know immigrants learning english in 6 months. Sounds like an amazing program with results I’ve never seen, but I’m glad. It’s wonderful they’re integrating culturally. But also once again, where are the political and legal duties that require them to know english to participate?
Am I missing something, or did I miss the version of the Constitution that the founding fathers wrote in German? Or French? Why did they see no point in providing it in any language other than English?
I am about integration. Printing ballots in multiple languages emphasizes the differences, and keeps us apart. Someone who went to the effort of becoming a citizen obviously wants to be a member of this society. It is a privlege, one that is worked hard for. So why refuse to learn the language?
I’m betting if you look back at immigration history, it is the women who do not learn English. The men had to in order to provide a living. So, insisting on ballots printed in other languages is a subtle form of se,xism, and a not so subtle effort to keep women in their place – isolated and at home.
Nice try, David. In case my last name isn’t enough of a clue, I’ll proudly mention that all of my Bubbies came from Eastern Europe speaking Yiddish too. Who knows, maybe we even had common ancestors back in the Old Country. Family legend has it that one of my great-great-grandfathers was a Socialist who had to escape the Tsar. So you never know. My forebears mostly came from Bialystok, Konigsberg, Vilna and Volkovysk. How about yours?
There are two things about your argument that are exceptionally silly.
1) The foreign language ballots are used by a relatively immigrants and are discriminatory in that they are only available to members of some immigrant groups. I’m not aware of any ballots that have been printed in Yiddish for the benefit of anybody’s Bubbie.
2) I believe my family only benefited from being expected to function only in Engligh. The same holds true for my Korean in-laws who immigrated more recently. English proficiency was and remains the ticket to upward mobility. Demanding proficiency in English is a pro-immigrant policy. Encouraging the proliferation of separate linguistic minorities only keeps those individuals less successful and dependent on the government programs which you seem to worship for their own sake.
Klake @62 You want to dicuss American history with me – lets go!
But you are going to have to do better than that.
Let me help you out with a starting point… the founders of this country came from a system in Europe that institutionalized the power of certain elites in all facets of society.
Economic and political power was dominated by aristocratic elites. It was not only a monarchy that we opposed, but the whole system that said certain wealthy families could not and should not hold all the wealth and power in a society.
Culturally, the various state religions generally held the power to suppress competing religions and set the rules for what was proper in society based on their own beliefs.
We fought a war to overthrow that system. We did not set up our country simply to reestablish another form of monarchy and aristocracy.
Our constitution explicitly rejected all of the cultural aristocracy as well. There is no religious test of citizenship. We set up a system where one dominant religion could not run the state and the state could not change the religious doctrine of the churches either.
There are no language requirements either, and for good reason. Do you think in a land of immigrants it never occurred to anyone that there might be folks around who did not speak English? If they wanted to they certainly could have put them in. They didn’t because it was not what this country is/was about.
You may honor the flag and your beliefs about America, but you swore an oath to defend the Constitution. Which is more important to you?
Typo alert: “The foreign language ballots are used by a relatively immigrants” should have read “The foreign language ballots are used by a relatively tiny number of immigrants”
However, if you simply think that we should bar anyone from citizenship because they do not speak, think, or believe as you do, then THAT is un-American.
Comment by Nindid— 3/14/06@ 10:39 am
Nindid it happens everyday, have you filled out the paper work to become a citizen of this country? The completed paper work gets lost all the time if it not done in properly English. The person asking the questions to allow you citizenship in this country only speaks English and the judge that swears you in is usually no bilingual, I should know having done it for family members and help them learn the requirements of becoming a US Citizen. The High School student that graduates with a diploma in Seattle could not past that test nor have immigrant’s work ethics to survive in the labor market. Now all these folks enter this country legally, and made all the necessary changes to succeed in this society
I think Stefan should be banned from commenting on HA as his comments are consistently hostile and in no wy contribute to the conversation.
Yes, by mockingly co-opting feminism, you win. I give up. How snarky of you. And of course, it’s “if” you look back, as you clearly have not, because you’d see how your current line of thought is the same that’s tried to keep immigrants as second class citizens since we started. So maybe you’re right, maybe keeping people from voting is the American Way. Deep.
Verfassung der Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika.
You can make wonderful little snippets about being about intergration, but as my wonderful right-wing econ professor used to say, “actions speak louder than words”. Your actions in this case keep people from voting. Period.
Here is something to all the people freaking out about ballots in different languages….
What are you worried about exactly?
We have established that it is not mandatory to speak English in this country and be a citizen. Check.
Part of being a citizen is being informed, especially at the ballot box. So if you have a major population – for whatever reason – doesn’t speak English, what is wrong with having ballots in their language? Do you not want them to be informed or to participate as citizens?
The fact is we have a lot of citizens who don’t speak English. If you want to talk about ways to integrate society I am fine with that, but it is a separate discussion. Perhaps you yearn to live in a country that excludes people from citizenship based on language. If so, go live there.
Historically, families will acculturate to the dominant language over about three generations or so. That includes Sharkansky’s ancestors and Goldstein’s as well I imagine.
I am sorry that you are all freaked out that Garcia’s and Chen’s are following the same pattern as did the Germans, the Eastern Europeans, the Italians and everyone else.
Get over yourselves already and quit being so insecure.
Yes, by mockingly co-opting feminism, you win. I give up. How snarky of you. And of course, it’s “if” you look back, as you clearly have not, because you’d see how your current line of thought is the same that’s tried to keep immigrants as second class citizens since we started. So maybe you’re right, maybe keeping people from voting is the American Way. Deep.
Verfassung der Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika.
You can make wonderful little snippets about being about intergration, but as my wonderful right-wing econ professor used to say, “actions speak louder than words”. Your actions in this case keep people from voting. Period.
Yes, by mockingly co-opting feminism, you win. I give up. How snarky of you. And of course, it’s “if” you look back, as you clearly have not, because you’d see how your current line of thought is the same that’s tried to keep immigrants as second class citizens since we started. So maybe you’re right, maybe keeping people from voting is the American Way. Deep.
Verfassung der Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika.
You can make wonderful little snippets about being about intergration, but as my wonderful right-wing econ professor used to say, “actions speak louder than words”. Your actions in this case keep people from voting. Period.
Yes, by mockingly co-opting feminism, you win. I give up. How snarky of you. And of course, it’s “if” you look back, as you clearly have not, because you’d see how your current line of thought is the same that’s tried to keep immigrants as second class citizens since we started. So maybe you’re right, maybe keeping people from voting is the American Way. Deep.
Verfassung der Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika.
You can make wonderful little snippets about being about intergration, but as my wonderful right-wing econ professor used to say, “actions speak louder than words”. Your actions in this case keep people from voting. Period.
whoops, I broke the internets. Apologies.
Your inconsistencies are showing, dear. Better, cover those up. Once again, it is exemplary that you know immigrants learning English in 6 months. Sounds like an amazing program with results I have never seen, but I am glad. It is wonderful they are integrating culturally. Also once again, where are the political and legal duties that require them to know English to participate?
Comment by corpus_juris— 3/14/06@ 10:49 am
Corpus_juris my wife learned English in aver short time span and did quite well in school. Now in our family it is a requirement to speak English in order to be successful in this society. Yes, we drilled into this generation the necessary work ethics so no one becomes a burden to society. There is not a requirement in this country that you have to speak English, but it is historically in the culture of this country. What you suggest is nothing but a politely correct way of producing failures in the next generations. Without great communication, which is the glue that holds this country together will be its greatest downfall
Nindid, do you understand the difference between statutes and constitutional law? The 14th amendment states “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States…” That is constitutional law. Can you name me any non-English speakers who fit that definition? The fact is that most, if not all, non-English speakers do not fall into this category and are not covered by the 14th amendment. That is where we get into statutes. Congress can, and has, put restrictions on anyone not “born or naturalized in the United States” as to when they can become citizens or vote. Among these restrictions are language.
I think Stefan should be banned from commenting on HA as his comments are consistently hostile and in no wy contribute to the conversation.
Commentby headless lucy— 3/14/06@ 11:07 am
headless lucy did he hurt your feelings? Come on get a life!
25
yeah Richard but I hope you notice that I used the familiar form of “you” — the insult was deliberate.
Jeez, Richard, you don’t expect me to remember case and grammar forty years later, do you?
27
I can understand why Stefan would think a ballot printed in English is confusing to some of his friends. The average wingnut can’t handle English, much less Cantonese.
Their language consists of guttural growls and snarls that loosely translates into, “woof! woof!”
Amendment XIV
(Ratified in 1868.)
Section 1
The United States Constitution, Amendment 14, Section 1
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Section 2
The United States Constitution, Amendment 14, Section 2
Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.
Section 3
The United States Constitution, Amendment 14, Section 3
Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
Section 4
The United States Constitution, Amendment 14, Section 4
Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
Section 5
The United States Constitution, Amendment 14, Section 5
Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
28
Why should you be allowed to sign a form in English? The Native Americans were here first! All ballots and forms should be printed in Salish.
Ask any Native American — English is a foreign language around here.
31
“It is impossible to claim to love this ountry and insult citizens with so callous and disrespectful blather. … Commentby BOB from BOEING— 3/14/06@ 3:30 am”
Not really, Bob. Loving our country doesn’t mean you have to love all of its citizens. Not personally, anyway. For example, I don’t love Ann Coulter because (a) she’s ugly, and (b) she wants to kill me. I don’t love Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, or Gary Ridgeway. As for Stefan, is he a citizen? What kind of name is “Sharkansky?” Looks russkie to me.
35
“When will they start printing ballots in “Ghetto”?
Next thing you know they will be attaching a Hip-Hop CD to ‘esplain da hole fing”. Commentby Mr. Cynical— 3/14/06@ 6:50 am”
We still have a ghetto, Cynical. Only difference is, it’s in Bellevue now and has more money.
Then there is Vern Witte who we all know is a long time politico in the Rossi right wing up in Sammamish and voted for his deceased wife and then claimed that the ballot must have been stolen. Riiiigggghhhttt.
The vast majority of the felons voted for Rossi. That’s why the GOP went with that porportionality nonsense.
36
“Goldy, all you are supporting leads to a very divided country. … Commentby Righton— 3/14/06@ 7:38 am”
Is that a bad thing? Tell you what, how about if we give you wingbat neo-nazi fucksticks the South, and you can have your own fucking country and “elect” your own fucking dictator, speak your own fucking language, and jerk off your own fucking dicks. How about if we build a fifty-foot-high jersey barrier along the Mason-Dixon line, topped with razor wire, and you fuckers can do whatever you want in your own fucking country.
re 83: It has nothing to do with my feelings. It does have to do with righties constantly talking the grossest and most disruptive trash on HA. Many of these commenters also comment on uSP.
Yet, if you disagree with that bonehead Stefan, he bans you. It’s frustrating. All you can read on his site is : “Phideas J. Whoopee! You’re the greatest.”
Hardly a dialogue. Yet the stupid crank feels free to post over here whenever he wants to.
39
“The “English Only” crowd is so ignorant of the history of our country it makes me laugh. Commentby Nindid— 3/14/06@ 8:00 am”
No, they’re not. They know better. This is nothing more or less than part of the Cheap Labor Conservative agenda. It’s very, very scripted; and very, very intentional. The wingbats are just parroting the script that’s been fed to them by their overseers. They’re not allowed to think for themselves, because they’ll get kicked out of The Party if they do.
@89 Hint: Kenniwick Man is not Native American. Native Americans were not here first.
40
“This country is a melting port of many people and cultures …
Commentby klake— 3/14/06@ 8:02 am”
Wrong! This country is a place of freedom where no one else is allowed to force you to adopt their language, customs, or cultural; or make you give up yours.
re 97: Get real. Ist off, scientists think he might not be of Native stock. Second of all, they’ve found only ONE skeleton: his. It doesn’t mean honkies were here 1st, peckerwood!
Well of course English is not required in the constitution. The Pennsyvania Dutch spoke only German and of course all their balloting was in German at the time of the signing of the Constitution.
Stefan @70,
I thought it might be clear that I used my Bubbie as an example because I assumed we shared a similar family history. My ancestors were mostly Ukrainian, Latvian and Polish, though it’s hard to pinpoint most of the original hometowns due to the nature of migration (village to small town, to larger town, to city, to port) and the fact that the entire extended family that stayed behind was exterminated by the Nazis and their collaborators. As far as I know, my ancestors mostly left for economic reasons, and to escape service in the Czar’s army.
You raise two different issues: 1) whether it is pragmatically feasible to cater to the needs of linguistic minorities when it comes to elections, and 2) whether such a policy is in fact desirable.
On the first issue, I have admitted that I could accept a cost benefit analysis that proved the money was not well spent; we clearly have to draw the line somewhere, and I’m willing to base the placement of that line on reason. It’s the second issue on which we clearly disagree.
I also disagree on your characterization of the immigrant Jewish community and it’s assimilation into American culture. In fact there were thriving Yiddish-speaking communities in New York, Philadelphia and elsewhere, and the first-generation immigrants mostly did not assimilate. Indeed, the process of assimilation is usually multigenerational, culminating in Jews like me and you who grew up to break the ultimate taboo: marrying a goy.
So not only would I say you have your history wrong (or at least, greatly simplified) I think you ignore the enormous cultural contribution that these ethnic groups have made to American culture and language. For example, I can call you a schmuck, and the vast majority of goyim here would understand what I’m saying, not because our immigrant ancestors instantly dropped their cultural identities and native tongues, but because they clung to their rich cultural and linguistic heritage, and in so doing ultimately enriched the culture and language of their adopted country.
Hey, Nindid, why don’t we just print 30-40 different ballots, all in different languages, and mail them out to everyone? That would be very inclusive and non-judgemental. That is the logical conlcusion to your argument that we just give everyone a ballot in whatever language they request. Either that, or we just have a menu, and you get to request what you want. If your language isn’t on the list, the Sec of State will go find someone who knows it, and pay them to translate. Deed done, everyone happy.
Problems: it would be horrendously expensive, it would be an administrative nightmare (even for Deanron), and how could we ensure consistency of message? Roger’s and Richard’s little Russian thing earlier in the thread is an example. Words mean something, and translating them can destory meaning or create unintended meaning.
I just don’t get this desire for a multi-language society by the elitist left. It is patronizing, because it assumes that immigrants aren’t capable of learning English. It is divisive, because it keeps people from mutual understanding. And it assumes that the state has endless amounts of money to enact such silliness.
@99 First off, Kennewick Man is not a skeleton. Secondly, 9,000 years ago, it would have been quite impossible for him to have arrived in present-day Washington State without an entire civilization being present. Do you think he arrived on a rocket? In those days, one rarely traveled more than 20 miles from their birthplace, because there were no Democrats to provide them with transportation systems that they didn’t want. So to pretend that there was only one Kennewick Man is just silly.
@100 No signer of the Constitution spoke German only. And the Constitution was never up for popular vote, it almost certainly would have been voted down if it were.
36
“Goldy, all you are supporting leads to a very divided country.
You want dual language like Belgium, or Canada, or worse, places like Yugoslavia..?”
Don’t forget Switzerland. 4 languages! Now there’s a country rife with internecine violence.
Oh, and don’t forget the UK – ever heard of Wales?
58
“If a legal citizen does not have the rudimentary skills needed to read the ballot, how can that person vote in an informed manner?”
You might want to ask DAWO.
And if I follow that logic, Janet, should we then draw pictures on the ballot for native English speakers who actually are illiterate?
re 103: If he’s not a skeleton then how did they find a spearpoint in his hip bone. I’ve read several articles on Kennewick man, so don’t try to give me BS.
goldy,
Can we get the sex change operation forms printed in other languages, por favor?
Michael, that is beside the point, my point was that at the time of the signing and at the time of the ratification, there were whole communities of American citizens that did not speak English.
The signing did not enact law (it was in fact not signed by some delegates to the convention), the signing presented the constitution to the states for ratification. Ratification by the various congresses of the states enacted the constitution as law.
re110: No, we 1st need to get your food stamp application printed in Esperanto.
Righton, have you signed a medical release lately? They ARE in multiple languages, Ive not seen one for sex change operations, but any other medical form I’ve seen lately was.
Dr E – sure, print the ballot in pictures! That way we can insult the intelligence of just about everyone, if we haven’t done it by suggesting we print it in every language known to man.
Janet, I don’t understand how printing multi-lingual ballots has anything to do with insulting someone’s intelligence. Care to explain?
Wabbit @ 84, 85
Actually, ты isn’t such an insult any more these days. Вы is certainly still the polite form of “you”. While Вы clearly shows respect, ты is not flagrantly disrepectful any more. In any event, you should have used тебя if you wanted to make sure Stefan was the one being fucked, instead of the one doing the fucking.
By the way, have you translated the message in 26 yet?
So how do I go about requesting a ballot in Choctaw?
I demand my ballot to be printed in Adûnaic.
Maybe I’m late in writing here. I’ve been busy. There are worse fortunes in life.
Some of the comments in this thread, while well-intentioned, smack of ignorance at how much assimilation is supposed to happen in one generation. Some people do this. I’ve met them. I envy the hell out of them. They are generally cultural and linguistic savants.
On the other end of the scale, you have folks who came to America as reasonably young men and women, and just refuse to learn English. They only speak a few words, and they do those at gunpoint. I don’t like them. They deserve little but raw contempt.
Somewhere in between you have a big muddled middle. A lot of Asian professionals bring their parents over with them. The children can look after the parents when they get old, and the parents can help out with taking care of grandchildren. Parents in their late 50s and early 60s (or older!) generally don’t learn much English, and xiao xun (filial piety) makes it highly unlikely their children will push them very hard to do otherwise.
Most of the first-generation immigrants I know are bilingual. They get along fine in “American” and “Immigrant” culture. They speak English in addition to their mother tongue.
I speak something that sounds a lot like Mandarin. I can pass the “telephone test” (i.e. I sound Chinese on the phone, not like an American speaking Chinese), I can read and write a bit.
You will not see me on a park bench flipping idly through the China Times. Why? Because it’s freaking hard work!
My wife is the same. She is conversant in English. Most people mistake her for a native speaker if they talk with her. She goes through English books at about 10% of the speed I do. She could read the voter’s guide in English, but life is busy enough without adding in more hurdles.
I would strongly advise all the English-only folks on the thread (English-only speakers one and all I presume) to try taking up a second language as an adult before being so hard on immigrants who have already done what you will never do yourselves.
I am a licensed interpreter in Korean. My wife is Korean.
She could read the voter’s guide in English, but life is busy enough without adding in more hurdles.
I am guessing that informing herself on the issues would similarly be too big of a hurdle for her.