Sen. Janea Holmquist (R-Hypocrite) makes a weasly argument for maintaining the 60-percent supermajority requirement on school levies:
Sen. Janea Holmquist, R-Moses Lake, said that Republicans are leery of making it easier to raise property taxes. She noted that the supermajority requirement stems from a 1932 citizen initiative.
And, um… of course, we should honor the will of these voters, despite the fact that nearly all of them are now dead.
I see this argument trotted out a lot — that because a measure was approved by voters by whatever margin however many years ago, its provisions are now somehow inviolate. But of course, this is just an argument of convenience to be used whenever it suits ones needs. For example, the 1932 property tax initiative that Holmquist venerates also capped levy rates at 40-mill, rather than the much lower 10-mill cap now in place. And it was just one part of a larger tax reform package that included a measure creating both a personal and corporate income tax… a citizens initiative that passed with 70-percent of the vote, but was thrown out a year later in a controversial 5-4 Supreme Court decision.
So I don’t suppose there’s something so special about that 1932 election that Sen. Holmquist would be willing to support an income tax and a 40-mill levy cap? Or that there’s something so insufficient about modern voters that they shouldn’t be given the opportunity to amend a provision passed by their counterparts 75-years ago?
Initiatives enact laws like any other law, and once the two-year moratorium is up, they can and should be amended to fix poorly thought out provisions or address changing times. It is true that initiatives are voted on directly by citizens, but then, so are our representatives.
The only people who should be allowed to vote on property tax issues are those that own property.
“once the two-year moratorium is up, they can and should be amended to fix poorly thought out provisions or address changing times.”
OOOHHH YEAAAH. And that rule should apply to propositions as well as initiatives. Exhibit A: Sound Transit. That vote was a decade ago, that agency has proven to be an abject financial disaster, AND THERE’S NO WAY FOR VOTERS TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT NOW.
Who here among us remains a big ST fan? Some of you? Fine. I like choo-choo trains too. But put it in perspective. You know, like taking the cost into consideration. Yes, Virginia, you CAN think like an adult about the choo-choo train agency.
How much more tax revenue does ST anticipate it will need to build out the system it promised in 1996? What? Nobody knows? And NOTHING is on ST’s website that gives an answer to that question? HMMMMMMMMM . . . .
Yeah, we’re stuck with a real winner there that the voters in 1996 saddled us with. Remember 1996? When you had a job?
Somebody … please …. post a link to a page at soundtransit.org where ST says how much tax it NOW intends to haul in to finish Phase I.
We can’t act so brain dead about that government that they start thinking we don’t care about cost. Come on, it’s great to be “green” and all, but if no one is watching, even DEMOCRATS will try to take too many cookies from the cookie jar. I know, tough to believe, but it’s true kiddies . . . ..
Libertarian @1,
And I suppose only business owners should be allowed to vote on business taxes?
(Oh, and by the way, renters pay property taxes too, indirectly through their rent.)
What you’re really opposed to is taxes.
After two years, initiatives are fair game.
However, I’m not a huge fan of passing school levies with simple majorities, because not everyone owns property or pays property taxes, so levies are an easy “yes” vote for part of the electorate. The supermajority requirement helps offset these “someone else will pay” voters. I wouldn’t restrict voting to property owners (@1) but there is a reasonable rationale for the supermajority law.
4 Roger Rabbit says:
After two years, initiatives are fair game.
——-
Laws enacted via initiatives (or via propositions) sure the fuck are not fair game if they are taxing power laws and the government immediately pledges the new taxes to long term bonds.
In that case, the laws are not “fair game” — it is instead “game over.”
@6 I’m merely stating what the law is. If you don’t like it, complain to the Legislature; I can’t do anything about it.
@1 is silly.
By extension:
The only ones allowed to vote on car rental taxes are car renters.
The only ones allowed to vote on cigarette taxes are cigarette smokers.
The only ones allows to vote on gas taxes are gas buyers.
What idiocy.
@5 No! That logic only works if *only property owners* got use from the tax raised! Schools, by law, much teach everyone…not just those who happen to live in houses owned by property owners.
Horrible Horrible.
@5
You are supporting unequal representation (6 YES votes are needed to equal 4 NO votes…giving anyone voting NO subsantially more power in their votes).
Horrible. Horrible.
@7 RR said: “I’m merely stating what the law is.”
Your description of what the law is, while correct in part, doesn’t capture the reality of voter-approved laws (initiatives and propositions) that contain taxing provisions. For example, ST’s tax and spend ballot proposition, approved in 1996, can not be changed by local initiative now, for a couple of reasons. It is a jurisdiction that only encompasses parts of three counties, so there is no initiative process available. Moreover, what taxing authority ST has was pledged to long term debt, and pursuant to the constitution’s contract clause statewide initiatives can not impair those. And of course, we can’t elect anyone to that board (they’re political appointees).
Long and short of it – the dead hands of a long ago voters preclude our ability to do ANYTHING meaningful w/r/t ST.
Trains are cool. Buses are cool.
But Sound Transit is a fucked-up kind of government. Don’t believe me? TRY to get an answer from it about how much more taxes it plans on hauling in to complete Phase I.
They don’t care – they don’t have to. They are untouchable.
Roger and Libertarian:
Most renters are smart enough to realize that they also pay property taxes through their rent. The idea that only property owners should be allowed to vote on property taxes is absurd.
If we were to take the logical next step in that argument, we would have to give large property owners additional votes when dealing with property taxes. After all, is it “fair” for someone that only owns a small house the same vote as someone that owns big chunks of downtown?
Should condo owners that own the land in common have to get together and decide how to cast a single vote? How about corporations? Does the corporation get to vote?
Or, doing it the other way, if everyone that owns an interest in property can vote, how about those corporations? If I own a share of Bank of America, can I vote on King County property taxes? Even though I don’t live in King County?
As you can see, the ramifications of only allowing property owners can get to the point of being silly. Let folks vote, and let the majority decide. The simple majority.
Re: #1
With that logic, I’m glad libertarians aren’t the only ones allowed to vote for liberties.
@9 Why should people who don’t pay property taxes get to decide how much property taxes I pay?
@9 I understand your argument, and it has considerable validity, but I hope you appreciate that at least some property owners are sensitive to the issue of people who don’t pay property taxes voting to raise their property taxes.
@9 So, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.
@11 I realize that. It’s true that once bonds are sold and the future revenue stream is pledged, the contractual obligation to repay bond holders must be honored. That’s why you have to nip these things in the bud.
WE SHOULD BE USING THE SETTLEMENT MONEY FROM TOBACCO COMPANIES TO HELP SMOKERS.
NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION.
Wait a second Goldy — and wait a second Sen. Janea Holmquist:
How can an INITIATIVE passed in 1932 have any bearing on a provision of the CONSTITUTION?
The people of Washington only have INITIATIVE power to make, amend or repeal LAWS. Unlike a number of other states, the INITIATIVE power in Washington cannot be used to amend the CONSTITUTION.
None of this should have any bearing — whether one way or the other — on the current proposal to amend the CONSTITUTION.
To amend the CONSTITUTION, 2/3 of the total members of the state House and state Senate must each approve the amendment. And then it must be approved by a majority of the voters in an election, which I believe must be a general election in a November.
I have said many times before that we should not have to rely on local levies to fund public schools. The state constitution requires local levies must be approved by 60% of the voters.
My proposal — outlaw local levies. The statutory authority for local levies can simply be eliminated. Raise the state property tax (or other state revenues) sufficiently to adequately fund public education for all school districts.
This proposal simply requires 50 representatives, 25 senators, and the signature of the Governor. If the Democrats were really serious about public education funding, they could accomplish this without a single Republican in the legislature having to vote for this, and without the people having to vote on this in November. In fact, all schools could be adequately and equitably funded in September 2007, when they open their doors for another school year.
I am Republican – I lie, steal and cheat when I’m not being a family (fat whore) or a crying hypocrite. A self righteous bastard I am. Hail Hitler!
Hey HA!
You should check out Jesus General website. They have pics of Sean Hannity at the Bunny Ranch.
Priceless.
Pay for the War – Why isn’t anyone willing to pony up. Let’s all talk about it but not know how to pay for it.
@ 22
No SHIT! Looks like Hannity’s got a stiffy going on there!
I guess maybe we should let our children vote on any federal budget which is not fully financed with current tax revenues. After all, it is they who will be paying for the Bush budget deficits for the next twenty or thirty years or so.
@14: Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. There are those who own property, those who rent, and the homeless. Those who rent pay the property tax. It is built in to the rental cost. Taxes go up? Rents go up (ceterus paribus). Really pretty simple. The homeless are small in number, and their turnout on voting day is rather limited (unless you buy the wingnut Sharkansky line).
Since you are squatting in a hole at Green Lake, I surmise you don’t pay property taxes. Since you are a bunny, I guess you don’t vote, either.
Keep shitting on Stephan’s lawn.
Before I forget, in today’s news:
The Pentagon knew about the inadequate care for military casualties in the Walter Reed out-patient center since at least 2004. Previously the Pentagon and the Bush administration expressed “surprise”, and promised to investigate.
Later today, the Pentagon dismissed the commander of the Walter Reed Hospital in an effort to head off the growing scandal. His responsibilities will be performed instead by the head of the U.S. Army’s Medical Services, the overall commander. The problem is, that this is the same guy who was there when most of the problems were created, before he was promoted. Now he gets to go back in just in time to destroy records and transfer witnesses before the Congressional hearings begin. The new guy gets to play the role of “scapegoat”.
And the Ariz. Federal District Attorney (a Republican) who was forced to resign by the Bush administration reported that shortly before the 2006 election, he was asked by the staff of Republican congressmen to “push” criminal investigatons of Democratic politicians, presumably to supply news which might offset notorious republican scandals in the news. He believes that his refusal to do so cost him his job. Administration officials retaliated that he was fired for being off work too many days, but he pointed out that as a Naval Reserve officer in time of war, he was required to serve at least 40 days a year.
So much for Republicans “supporting out troops”.
I hate to admit it, but I agree with the Popester. Tying public school funding is discriminatory. Well off neighborhoods have the best public school facilities and levy funded operations support.
We need a PROGRESSIVE state income tax, lower sales taxes, and higher gas taxes.
@1: Here’s a deal:
Only property owners can vote on property taxes.
Only business owners can vote on business taxes.
Only those who drink can vote on liquor taxes.
Only car owners can vote on gas taxes.
Only drug users can vote on drug laws.
and last but not least,
Only union members can vote on legislation impacting the ability to organize and bargain over working conditions.
Whaddaya’ say?
26
Point well made. We are a community, a community that espouses representative democracy as our foundational governing principle. Suggesting that some vote on this and others on this, and some get more votes than others, is simply nonsense. Roger, you surely remember the “one man, one vote” principle that the Baker v. Carr Court enunciated. Today you may have property, tomorrow you may not. And, I say this as someone who gets hit by just about every tax that comes down the pike.
Funding for education is an investment in Democracy. If students get to vote when they turn 18, then it is in everyone’s best interest that they be relatively literate and know a smattering of civics and history, among other things.
That means that somebody’s got to pay for the education, regardless of whether or not they own property, have children, smoke, drink, etc.
Only people who believe that government isn’t an evil hinderence to some mythical Randian universe should be allowed to vote or hold office.
27: More on the Walter Reed abomination.
Rummy’s WIFE was a volunteer there, not known to the folks there by that last name. She finally asked hubby about the photo ops they were doing there, and asked specifically if they hand-picked the best cases to show the public.
Answer: YES.
The rat bastards who claim to support the troops can all go to hell.
Goldy, considering the kind of majority the Democrats have, why do you give a damn about what any Republican in the Legislature has to say? The Democrats run the show; lack of progress begins and ends with them.
@1 I got a better one. Let the people that want to pop out half a dozen kids pay for their school. The rest of us should only have to pay for one education, to pay for the one we received.
Only property owners can vote on property taxes.
Only business owners can vote on business taxes.
Only those who drink can vote on liquor taxes.
Only car owners can vote on gas taxes.
Only drug users can vote on drug laws.
and last but not least,
Only union members can vote on legislation impacting the ability to organize and bargain over working conditions.
Whaddaya’ say?
As long as organize labor doesnt raise taxes, sure why not.
Facts Support My Positions says:
@1 I got a better one. Let the people that want to pop out half a dozen kids pay for their school. The rest of us should only have to pay for one education, to pay for the one we received.
Anything is better then what the kiddies are getting now in the public screwels. If we are going to have public funding for K-12 it should be through a voucher system or nothing at all. As long as we are stuck with the current system we should make it illegal for teachers to express political views on public school grounds. I hope they pass it in Arizona.
@13 Did I say renters? I didn’t say renters, in fact, I intentionally avoided the term “renters.” I had in mind young people who live with their parents, and old people who live in nursing homes, and homeless people, and anyone else who neither owns property nor pays rent.
@23 Wow! There’s enough silicone in those pix to caulk a subdivision.
@27 Oh, but I do vote — and as for my hole in a public park, well, being free is the whole fucking point of living in a hole in a public park, isn’t it?
I wouldn’t argue that renters don’t pay property taxes (they do), but it’s not a given that landlords can pass property tax increases through to renters. In a soft rental market, the landlord might have to eat it for a while. Eventually, though, it will be passed through.
@28 You’re supposed to get your job back when you return to work from Reserve duty — unless, of course, your boss is a Republican.
@28 I agree the general was scapegoated and they put the old guy back in charge to get rid of the evidence. This sends a pretty clear signal to every general officer in the service — the civilian brass of this administration not only won’t back you up, but at the drop of a hat will wreck your career and drag your reputation through the mud to save their own sorry asses.
@33 That eliminates all Republicans and Libertarians.
@35 Because it takes a 2/3rds vote to amend the state constitution, and the Dems don’t have 2/3 of the Senate, they need some Republican votes to change the 60% constitutional provision.
@37 Now that’s progress! We don’t want to raise taxes, we only want to raise wages, and if you don’t employ anyone, that’s not a problem is it?
I’m gonna start a Bunny Union! More carrots! We want Stefan to grow MORE CARROTS!!!
If Stefan doesn’t plant carrots this spring, we’re gonna hold a “labor action” in his garden!
HERE’S THE DAILY SCHEDULE FOR THE DOOFUS CHARTER SCHOOL:
8:00 AM – 9:00 AM : LIMBAUGH
9:00 AM – 10:00 AM : FAUX NEWS
10:00AM – 10:15 AM : PHYSICAL BREAK: MARCHING TO WAR MUSIC
10:15AM – 11:00 AM : WINGNUT MATH: ZERO TAXES=MORE REVENUES
11:00AM – 12:00 NOON: READING: RIGHT-WING PROPAGANDA
12:00PM – 12:15PM: LUNCH
12:15PM – 12:30PM: PHYSICAL ACTIVITY: MARCHING TO RIGHT-WING JINOISTIC SONGS
12:30PM – 1:30PM: SAVAGE-WEINER
1:30PM – 2:30PM: WRITING: REGURGITATE LIMBAUGH, FAUX NEWS AND SAVAGE-WEINER
2:30PM – 3:15PM: RECITE RIGHT-WING JINGOISTIC SLOGANS
3:15PM – CLASS DISMISSED.
@38 We also should make it illegal for school boards to express their religious views in public schools, too.
Roger Rabbit says:
@37 Now that’s progress! We don’t want to raise taxes, we only want to raise wages, and if you don’t employ anyone, that’s not a problem is it?
03/01/2007 at 10:01 pm
Boeing has been doing it for years. They have a word for it… ah it’s on the tip of my tongue… oh yeah, they call it outsourcing. The machinist union is a stong union…er or whats left of them.
@25
You usually have to have A DICK
@25
You usually have to HAVE a dick to have a stiffy…
44…right that was the point I was trying to make.
Jim at 34: The way I read the story, Rumsfield’s wife wasn’t a volunteer there, she was invited by a friend of hers (a volunteer) to sit in on a session where spouses of patients complained about their problems and gave each other advice.
Most of the women there didn’t know who she was, a few did. Rumsfield’s wife didn’t speak, she just listened, until at the end she asked if the soldiers which were brought out for Rummy’s visits and phot-ops to the hospital had been hand-picked to give a good a good report to Rummy. The spouses all agreed that they were. Rummy’s wife presumably told this to Rumsfield.
Shortly thereafter, the volunteer (the friend of Rumsfield’s wife) was told that her permission to be on the grounds of Walter Reed had been revoked. All of the patients were ordered not to talk to reporters or anyone directly outside of the chain of command without a public-affairs officer present.
@ 53:
Did I say Hannity had a dick? No. I purposely avoided using the term refering to a “penis.”
Why?
Because Republicans lack anything resembling a penis. That’s why they’re so sexually repressed.
@ 53 cont.
In fact, what you see in Hannity’s pants is the strap on dildo that whore just used to pound away at Hannity’s ass Rev. Haggard style.
Hannity just converted to Rev. Haggards form of Christianity: he’s a “Crystal-meth-odist” now.
rhp6033:
Here’s a link to the Washington Post story that confirms what you are saying:
http://tinyurl.com/2hnysy
The incident and the repercussions are detailed near the end of the story:
I spent enough years in the military to see the processes that cause this sort of thing. Anyone that embarrasses the “boss” is a problem to be dealt with quickly and quietly.
Actually addressing the problem is not even considered, not because of any desire to let it continue, but simply because it never even enters the mind of the underling who is solely focused on “protecting the image”.
Caught in the filter again. I think it may be the “tinyurl” that is causing it.
rhp6033 – there’s a link to the story you’re referring to that will be here eventually (I hope). The Washington Post essentially confirms your version of events and has a number of other interesting things to say.
First of all, the 1932 initiative created an income tax among other changes to the tax code as Goldy listed. At that point, there was no court ruling that an income tax was unconstitutional. It was after the initiative was approved that the challenge to the income tax was made and the court ruled it unconstitutional. Since that time it has been the political reality it would take a constitutional amendment to enact an income tax, but before that ruling that was not the view which is why the 1932 initiative tried to create one.
Second, Sound Transit’s board is comprised entirely of elected officials. It is known as a federated board and is quite representative. As to whether it is a waste of money or not, that is a different argument. Critics of Sound Transit never offer alternatives, except for those guys who believe bus rapid transit is the answer to everything. Until you develop your own regional answer to the service ST offers, shut the hell up.
Sound Transit’s board is comprised entirely of elected officials,
Uh, no. It is comprised entirely of political appointees. The three County Executives get to choose among a bunch of electeds. They handpick toadies who’ll be sure to screw over taxpayers. It is representative of politicians who’ll do what Laudenburg and Sims want – and that is ALL it is representative of.
It is not representative of voters, because voters did not elect any of those 18 onto ST’s board. It is not made up of representatives of taxpayers, because no taxpayer chose any of those 18 to collect or spend the ST taxes. They were elected locally, to handle public safety, sewage and fire control matters. NONE of them were elected to be representatives of the region’s taxpayers to build train systems.
“randall” – like Beer Drinker said above: give us a link to some ST webpage where it tells the public how much tax it expects to spend implementing Phase I. If you can’t do that, then by definition we’ve got a problem on our hands with regard to whether or not ST is an accountable entity. And randall, ST estimated it would cost $3.9 billion to implement Phase I. What do you think the cost estimate now is? And if you don’t have a good estimate, supported by facts, then you are the one who needs to STFU.
As far as alternatives – there are far more important transportation needs. Paying for the replacement for the northern of the two floating bridges over Lake Washington, for example. That’s how regional transportation dollars need to be spent, not on what Sound Transit wants (massively expensive train line extensions).
And, um… of course, we should honor the will of these voters, despite the fact that nearly all of them are now dead.
You could use that lame argument on a lot of things…….. say Native American fishing “rights” or the constitution, the people who voted on that are dead too, your an idiot!
Uh no yourself. To argue that those elected officials appointed to the ST Board do what Ladenburg and Sims tell them to is about as ridiculous a comment as I’ve ever heard. Ladenburg can’t get his county council to do what he wants, he sure as hell doesn’t control the ST board members he appoints. He can’t remove them, only appoint them. If you watch the ST board in action you would never make that statement. And frankly, I don’t care what the estimate to finish Phase 1 is as long as it is finished. Voters are more concerned that they get the service they were promised than they are if it costs more or takes longer than expected because everyone except right wing anti government wackos knows that costs go up and unexpected things happen. (The exception is when government misrepresents those costs which is what ST did in its early pre-Joni Earl era and why it got in so much trouble.) You failed to mention an alternative to regional transportation if you hate ST so much. Your only example was the 520 bridge. That is a very important project indeed but does squat for the thousands of people driving I-5 into Seattle from Pierce County each day. There is more to the region than the damn eastside of the lake.
And frankly, I don’t care what the estimate to finish Phase 1 is as long as it is finished.
Cultist alert! Cultist alert! Last time I heard crap like this it was coming from GWSHRUB and he was talking about Iraq.
Whoa! Conflating my support for regional rail transit with the illegally appointed president’s disastrous war is about as tenuous a connection as the illegally appointed president used to to begin his war in the first place.