Emory Bundy writes at the ‘cut:
[W]hat about the environmental costs and benefits of rail transit? Surprisingly, rail’s environmental costs are quite adverse.
The anti-light rail guys have been flogging this thing for so long that their arguments are changing. Only recently have they been employing certain Al Gore-like rhetoric to try to put the kibosh on rail. It’s funny, really.
Emory Bundy, Kemper Freeman Jr., and other anti-rail guys like to say they’re pro-transit. The like buses, they say. Or bike lines and van pools. Just anything but a train!
You can sometimes judge an argument by who flocks to it’s banner. You see, it’s no wonder why the lunatic right wing hate site Free Republic loves Bundy and his anti-rail screed. So don’t fall for the “we like transit” routine from the anti-rail folks.
Before long, they’re going to be lashing out at Thomas the Tank Engine for trying to brainwash kids into liking trains.
And Thomas is evil too! Or have you forgotten all that lead paint? And he’s from CHINA! Which makes him a COMMIE!!
I am all for mass transit if the people who vote for it pay for it and are forced to use it. Of course I would never vote for it, but I wouldn’t complain about it either.
@3: By that logic those who vote for war should pay for it and be forced to fight it.
But this is a silly argument. We as a society make choices and ‘force’ those who disagree to abide by them, be it health and safety rules, traffic rules, subsidies to Boeing, wasteful defense spending, or mass transit.
But if you don’t want to complain, why then just shut up.
Freeman would be behind it if it brought more shopper to Bellevue Square
Bill @6,
No, Freeman would not support rail if it brought more shoppers to Bellevue Square. He equates rail with communism. Really. He does. It has nothing to do with economics, or what mode of transportation is more or less efficient. He just thinks rail is downright un-American.
He’s fucking nuts.
Exactly, the anti-rail environmental argument just doesn’t hold up… thanks for pointing this out. The anti-rail people need to get back to focusing on how rail costs way too much and carries far too few riders.
The way rail was sold and the associated untruths about costs (like waaaaay underestimated), I can see why people are pissed.
Here’s his whole screed:
http://crosscut.com/sound-tran.....ight+rail/
Goldy@6:
I agree, Freeman is fucking nuts. The Eastside light rail extension planned in ST2 will bring more people to Bellevue Square and his other downtown Bellevue developments. With all the money he’s put into downtown Bellevue, with all that he’s done to make downtown Bellevue more dense, he will benefit from light rail more than just about any single developer in the Puget Sound. There is no logical connection between how he chooses to invest his development dollars and his views on transportation. He’s just a nutty ideologue.
@4
Not to mention that car commuters benefit from rail too by pulling even more people off the road.
Kemper is a rather daft man. His family got their land by scamming some poor soon to be interned Japanese families and have been essentially riding that for decades. If not for that have happenstance of birth Kemper would be that guy who is always being fired from his minimum wage service jobs because he refuses to stop annoying the customers with libertarian conspiracy theory nonsense.
The good thing is that his Incompetence is matched with arrogance so his little campaigns are usually poorly run.
The Publicans only want your tax money going for wars and jails.
11, Lee
“Not to mention that car commuters benefit from rail too by pulling even more people off the road. ”
I believe that has been discounted as a fallacy from what I have been reading/hearing. Even Ron Sims has quit saying that (although he did in the buildup to selling the light rail package).
@3
Believe it or not, Dufus (aka Rather) does have sort of a point, which is that some people who vote for mass transit do so hoping other people will ride the mass transit so THEY can drive THEIR cars.
@6
Freeman is not only nuts, he’s a hypocrite. Isn’t using OPM (other people’s money) to finance shopping malls a form of communism?
15
First time for everything, I guess.
Bundy…Bundy..hmmm..whay does that name sound familiar? OH YEAH! TED BUNDY was a freakin’ SERIAL KILLER of women! I don’t trust guys named Bundy. As for Freeman? Don’t trust that name either, they come from a line of serial fascist capitalist thieves!
Kemper Freeman didn’t want the ST ballot measures in 1995 and 1996. But he had a good reason: there was nothing in there for him in those.
He loves this upcoming ballot measure. Billions in Seattle tax dollars going to build roads on the eastside, improvements to I-405 so shoppers and tenants can get to his Bellevue properties, and rail dropping thousands of shoppers right at his commercial properties’ doorsteps.
He’s “saying” he doesn’t want the ballot measure to pass this fall – but that’s because he’d get so much out of it. He’s crazy alright, crazy like a fox.
Can someone point out a city that invested millions/billions in rail and then 20 years later regrets it and took it out? Use the ‘way back machine’ (Google) and look at the history of adding trains to New York, DC, Portland or ANY other city. EVERY one of these arguments came up. It costs too much. No one will ride it. Trains are communist (ok, that’s a new one). But in EVERY case, decades after the fact, once you actually get enough lines built (which you can’t do all at once up front) it becomes useful and everyone suddenly loves it. Try taking the subway out of New York, or DC. Or remove the street cars and MAX from Portland.
Of course it’s expense to build. Of course the first line doesn’t always ‘serve’ that many people or is that useful. But you have to begin SOMETIME…it will only get more expensive every single year we wait.
Remember the monorail into West Seattle we tried to build? Just WAIT until we finally do build a train into West Seattle (5, 10 or 25 years from now)…does anything think by then it will be cheaper considering land values, materials and labor?
Speaking as a daily rider of NJ Transit there is simply no way a packed train produces more carbon than the cars it displaces. Even if you’re talking light rail, and the power is coming from a coal plant with no pollution controls.
Of course mass transit won’t sky rocket with the first line, you need to build a network, once you have a network people start realizing traffic sucks, and gas bills are higher than rail passes.
I really don’t get why the rest of the company chokes over rail lines so much. Your highways WILL become more congested. Buy the right of ways now before the prices inevitably go up.
NYC would have shriveled up and died economically by now if it wasn’t for NJ Transit, LI Rail Road and Metro North. You can fit a hell of a lot more people on a train than you can on a equivalent stretch of road.
@ 19; @ 20 —
I don’t think the “rail” part of this package is what has us thinking _No_ in November. It has to do with the ornaments they hung on the tree. The way the thing is packaged to try and please too many people makes it top-heavy: much too much spending on asphalt east of the lake, caving by the Pierce County Council to subdivision builders, the reliance on the sales tax is too great, not enough rail soon enough for Seattle – well, you get the picture . . ..
@ 21
Most of the roads the package will fund are HOV lanes.
Pierce county is getting roads money that will take big trucks off city streets, which will improve safety. What you call “top heavy” I call smart politics.
The sales tax is what we have. Tim Eyman eliminated the MVET option. Salt Lake City approved light rail with a 30 year build-out, only to have voters come back and approve new taxes to cut the build-out to 15 years. This is in SLC (and it’s burbs), perhaps one of the most conservative places in America. The Puget Sound region could, in only a few years, easily decide to approve more tax to speed up the construction to 10 years instead of 20.
By rejecting this package, rail-hungry liberals get nothing.
“Kemper Freeman didn’t want the ST ballot measures in 1995 and 1996. But he had a good reason: there was nothing in there for him in those.”
oswalt t always gets it wrong – which is what makes him a good Troll. The ’95 ballot featured 86 miles of light rail, including rail to his mall. http://www.munileague.org/arch.....6/rta.html
“He loves this upcoming ballot measure. Billions in Seattle tax dollars going to build roads on the eastside, improvements to I-405 so shoppers and tenants can get to his Bellevue properties, and rail dropping thousands of shoppers right at his commercial properties’ doorsteps.”
Does oswald t TRY to be wrong on purpose, or is he just fucking stupid? This clown comes up with the exact same schtick everytime Kemper Freeman is mentioned. Funny story about Seattle money going to Bellevue, though.
“He’s “saying” he doesn’t want the ballot measure to pass this fall – but that’s because he’d get so much out of it. He’s crazy alright, crazy like a fox. ”
OK, I get it. Just another court jester. Clever, dude.
“I don’t think the “rail” part of this package is what has us thinking _No_ in November. It has to do with the ornaments they hung on the tree. The way the thing is packaged to try and please too many people makes it top-heavy: much too much spending on asphalt east of the lake, caving by the Pierce County Council to subdivision builders, the reliance on the sales tax is too great, not enough rail soon enough for Seattle – well, you get the picture . . .. ”
Norman Bates is a broken record, too with that ornament line. Gotta hate regional equity, community values (different from Capitol Hill even!) and the democratic process.
The mega project in Pierce County is the extension of 167 from where it currently dead-ends in a field to the Port of Tacoma. If Norman ever took a visit to the Port (means he would have to leave his elitist bubble and Capitol Hill island) he would see a long line of trucks going nowhere on Port of Tacoma Road.
You know that $5 head of organic cabbage you ate the other night, Norm? Guess where that came from?
The Cross Base Highway isn’t creating a single new “subdivision”. It’s providing access to land with in the urban growth area, including a lot of industrial land which means JOBS. Not too complicated, right Norman?
Nice try, troll. Next time take your head out of the warm, moist place it resides. That way you might be able to read, to you know, learn some facts.
RTID would funnel billions of Seattle tax dollars to road building from Bellevue to Renton and the Sammamish Plateau. The breakdown of what RTID money gets spent where is on pages 30-32 of the RTID blueprint for progress, at rtid.org. The amount of revenues raised during the first 20 years is shown on page 88.
RTID is a crap deal for everyone in Seattle in particular. For some reason King County as a whole would fare poorly under it as well, compared to Pierce and Snohomish Counties.
The taxes and bond debt that would be the responsibility of King County over the 20 years would total $8,503 million. The expenditures on projects would be $5,380 million over that period. These are “YOE” or nominal dollars.
The comparable figures for Pierce are: $3,030 million and $2,047 million, respectively.
The comparable figures for Snohomish are: $2,967 million and $2,092 million, respectively.
As can be seen, the ratio of money spent to tax/debt obligations is significantly worse for King County.
When you look at the numbers for spending in Seattle vs. the amount of RTID taxes Seattle taxpayers would have to pay, and the debt Seattle taxpayers would need to pay off, numbers becomes astoundingly bad. But trolls can’t deal with numbers . . .
On page 31 of the RTID Blueprint for Progress there is a breakdown of what would get spent by RTID in Seattle. Taking half of the SR 520 and I-90 spending ($537 million), and adding in the “Seattle Mobility Project” plus the Lander St. overpass and the South Park Bridge (total: $547 million) gives a figure of $1,084 million.
That’s it for Seattle spending by RTID. That isn’t going to help inter-city vehicle congestion in the slightest. So Seattle taxpayers would be on the hook for paying half of King County’s tax obligations to RTID, and tax obligations to retire half of King County’s share of RTID bonds. The YOE cost of those items to Seattle taxpayers would be $4,252 million. In exchange, what would Seattle get in the way of road upgrades? Only $1,084 million in project spending. Way to fuck Seattle, guys.
Not only did everybody in Seattle get ripped off with Seattle monorail, now RTID turns out to be a massive ripoff for Seattle.
Who likes RTID? Why the developers who will get to cover the Cascade foothills in three counties with McMansion subdivisions. Realtors and developers pay your salary, troll?
Will @ 22 wrote: “The sales tax is what we have.”
Actually, ST and RTID each could have put less regressive revenue options on the ballot. They CHOSE to increase the sales taxes, which are too high here already. Sales taxes are no way to pay for trains, even though I like trains.
Wilco, exactly what other revenue options could ST and RTID have used? Remember, they’re both bound by the allowances of the state laws that created them.
For RTID there are several far less regressive revenue sources it could have asked voters to approve. For example: a parking tax, a gas tax, certain tolls, and a two-dollar-per-month-per-employee tax on employers. See RCW 36.120.050.
For ST, it could have backed off the fucking sales taxes a bit, and substituted for part of its revenue needs that same employer tax mentioned above (per RCW 81.100.030). MORE voters would support that.
The poster above is correct: the sales taxes are way too high here. There are better ways to raise revenue for transit and road work in this region than sales taxes.
Wilco, none of those other revenue sources can come close to replacing the overall total, and a gas tax was just used by the State legislature, so I suspect it would have been a political nonstarter.
ST’s employee tax would generate an order of magnitude less funding than even one of those tenths of a percent of sales tax.
“ST’s employee tax would generate an order of magnitude less funding than even one of those tenths of a percent of sales tax.”
I don’t know about that, Ben. There are lots of employees in the tri-county region. $24 per year per employee could add up. And I think it includes some government employees as well. Do you have any figures on what the annual total would be, compared with, say, a tenth of a percent sales tax in the same region?
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Ben Schiendelman says:
Wilco, none of those other revenue sources can come close to replacing the overall total,
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Ben – You and Will seem to be reading off the same page of sheet music. I just posted a question to him in another thread, and I guess you should try answering it as well . . .
If the measure in November is approved, how much taxing authority in total would that give ST and RTID? You refer to “the overall total.” That’s what I want to know – just how big could that “overall total” be?
Let’s assume 50 years of the current – and the new – ST and RTID taxes from the date the upcoming ballot measure is approved. What is your estimate of the aggregate of the annual tax amount collections?
You’re enough of a numbers guy, why not give it a shot and give us your best estimate! Show your calculations to get a passing score.
Don’t wimp out on me here Ben. You can’t go limp on us now!
Ben, don’t waste your time on Articulated. He has been furiously spinning bogus information 24×7 on just about every message board around for the past three years http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.....sername=BH
Guess why Articulated (aka BH) wants an employee tax?
Yep, you guessed it. Articulated is chronically unemployed, and runs no businesses which would pay this tax.
And he also thinks rail systems are built soley for the purposes of feeding some giant conspiracy theory he’s invented involving unions, big business, appointed boards, yadda yadda yadda.
Articulated is also a lazy researcher who never cites any sources to back up his lame arguments.
Rather than pester people who don’t have time to kill (ie, people with jobs) like Ben, Articulated could have simply taken a look at the (elected – not appointed) Seattle City Council’s enactment (no public vote) of the $25 per employee head tax last year. That tax will raise a meager $5.5 million in 2008 and $128 million in 10 years. And Seattle is the jobs engine of the region and state. (contrast that with the $40 million per year Bridging the Gap raises via property taxes – nearly 5x the head tax amount)
In other words: chump change. Which is why Articulated is such a big proponent. He knows the head tax will do nothing to fix our transportation mess. If only we could all spend our days living off the taxpayer…and complaining about taxes! That would solve gridlock!
Not only that, but the $25 head tax total of $5 million accounts for the fact that tax will also be applied to businesses located outside Seattle which has workers who “perform any part of their duties within the City of Seattle,” So the pot is bigger than Seattle proper.
$5 million per year.
No wonder these cranks are so shrill.