Dino Rossi, the GOP, BIAW, and right-wing blogs and talk radio have been urging Rossi supporters to contact their legislators and urge them to vote against certifying Christine Gregoire’s gubernatorial election. Even Tim Eyman has gotten into the act, emailing the 3,600 names on his list.
Well, two can play at that game… indeed, two must. Too often the voice of the many is drowned out by the voice of the loud.
So please call the Legislative Hotline (1.800.562.6000 ) and contact your legislators, and urge them to follow the rule of law and certify this election.
Be polite, but firm. Make it clear that Gregoire won this election according to the rules in place, and that the proper forum to address any claims of fraud or irregularities is a court of law… not the legislature, and not the court of public opinion.
And make it absolutely clear to Democrats in swing districts that this is a battle between two political parties, and if there was ever a time for party unity, it is now. If they do the right thing and certify this election as the law prescribes, they will have your support. But if they give in to threats coming from the GOP’s well-orchestrated PR campaign and break ranks with their party, let them know that angry Republicans will be the least of their worries.
I don’t know, the libs and slackers are just not as passionate as the R’s.
Passion evolves from a Need to survive and the WANT to be Heard as correct and FAIR!
Article III, Section 4 of the state constitution provides for the legislature to judge election contests. Presumably, that decision can be appealed to the courts, since the state constitution does not prohibit such an appeal, and the legislature has adopted a law allowing appeals to the courts after the legislature certifies the election.
So, if you want the state legislature to follow the law, you need to be providing them reasons why they should reject an election contest action, instead of urging them to simply ignore their constitutional duties to decide an election contest prior to their certification (or not) of the election.
So, if convincing evidence of fraud or wrongdoing is presented by Gregoire’s opponents, her already very low standing in public opinion will shrivel even further, and she will be very hard pressed to maintain the near unanimity in Democrat legislators that would be necessary to certify her election as Governor. (And while courts are supposed to be objective, certainly they tend to be influenced by public opinion to a significant extent in reality.)
So far, Gregoire and her supporters have not provided any convincing reason why the election results are valid. More damaging to their cause is their hue and cry to simply ignore any possible fraud, wrongdoing and irregularities, and move forward with so-called “unity”.
In any event, the legislature is a proper forum to contest the election. So is the court system, both state and federal. And so is the so-called “court of public opinion”.
Last time I checked, we still had a constitutional right to freedom of speech in this country. If people want to comment on the fairness and propriety of the recent election, that is their right.
Fortunately, this is not Cuba — a left-wing paradise where one does not have the right to run against or even vote against the ruling party candidates, much less criticize public officials or the political system. Unfortuntely, many Democrats think that Cuba has a much better political and economic system that the United States.
This only takes a minute. They seem to be getting lots of calls. I doubt it is necessary to explain your position: the legislators are likely to just tally up the pros v. cons.
My message was that I supported certification, and opposed the revote.
Hi Richard –
There isn’t any convincing evidence of fraud or wrongdoing. No objective person is going to believe the rantings of your ilk as long as the Republican Secretary of State supports Gregoire’s certification. Don’t miss the forest for the…whatever it is you’re looking at instead of the forest…maybe gnats?
Comment by Christine G— 1/6/05 @ 3:07 pm
I haven’t heard anything from Sam Reed saying that he supports the state legislature certifying the election. The only thing Sam Reed has done is to certify the totals which the respective counties have sent to his office. Reed’s position is that the Secretary of State does not have the legal ability to contest the results presented by a county or challenge the method in which the county held the election. Reed believes any challenge must be resolve by the legislature or the courts, and not by his office.
As far as Reed’s opinion goes, he has told the media that if there are more ballots counted than people casting them, this could be a good basis for an election contest. And I certainly haven’t heard Reed endorse the practice of a so-called provisional voter simply stuffing the ballot into the machine, instead of having to go through the process of verifying their registration and eligibility to vote (as well as not that they haven’t already voted).
The Democrat supporters of Gregoire are resorting to name calling and avoidance. Republicans and other opponents of election certification have presented reasoned arguments in support of their position, and the hard evidence is being assembled as we speak.
Sure Richard – one more Republican who voted a dead spouse.
Stilllll Waitinggggggg
Calld this am – lady on the phone very poite and efficient.
Hi Richard –
I see, the folks on soundpolitics, talking about Gregoryvich, Governor Fraudulaire, and Ukraine County, who kept calling for concession from Democrats on the first count, are going to lecture everyone here on name calling and avoidance.
Here’s my point, in case you missed it: Reed is a Republican, and his public statements have largely been in favor of the Supreme Court and the hand recount process. I assume (and I think it is a fair assumption) that the average nonpolitical person is going to take a quick look at rhetoric, and try to decide what is partisan rhetoric and what is objective. In this regard, Sam Reed is a huge ace in the Democrats’ hands.
I was debating Al Gore’s concession speech yesterday with some right wing partisans. They discounted it, because they think Gore wasn’t sincere and he is a genuiunely bad guy. But the reality is that most voters don’t have such strong personal opinions. For a nonpolitical voter, Gore’s concession conferred legitimacy on Bush. It frequently doesn’t matter what the candidates feel in their hearts, or how we partisans view it.
Here, public perception is likely to sway against Rossi. The Democrats have the “hypocrite” card with him calling for concession. They have Reed. They have the fact that right now certifying Gregoire will at least seem to end the matter, and revoting is an expensive, long process. Rossi may very well be seen as a divider, not a uniter.
Someday you guys are going to have to PRODUCE the hard evidence, rather than assemble it behind the scenes. You’ve cried wolf again and again. Maybe you’ll get “lucky.”
Comment by Richard Pope
Then bring your hard evidence to court. Last I heard, you have to prove malfeasance, and the law of the land is presumed to work until such evidence is provided and vetted. Reconciliation of voter counts and total ballots counted is not the law of the land. Rossi has lost, get over it.
GOPers Shoot Blanks in Court
The first set of republican lawsuits are being filed and apparently without any basis.
Frivolous Contest Lawsuit No. 1
Daniel P. Stevens of Fall City sent the court a one-page notice. . . Stevens objects to the state law that allowed the Democratic Party to pay for a hand recount, saying it contradicts the constitutional requirement of free and equal electionsi>
Yep a one page disgruntal fax. The hand recount provisioon is unconstitutional? Novel at least. Give him some credit. That will do it. Ah huh.
Frivolous Contest Lawsuit No. 2
Arthur Coday Jr. of Shoreline filed an 11-page brief arguing that the hand recount was fatally flawed for several reasons and asking the high court to inaugurate Rossi as governor.
Well. At least Cody’s printer worked better. Got to give it to Cody for being aggressive. He not only asks that the election be overturned but that Rossi just be inaugurated directly.
Right now, some of the all caps posts on Unsound would provide a better legal basis than the GOPers tactics.
Aaron-
The statutes clearly say all ballots must be accounted for and voters credited for voting. How do you do that without some sort of reconciliation? The reason for the statute is so voters can be assured in a very transparent fashion exactly WHO voted and that all of those ballots were counted…no more, no less.
Cynical,
Tell it to the judge. You do have $250 for the filing fee, right? Go for it.
Given that we do have blind voting, and ballots are separated from the names of the voters, and that clerical and procedural errors are an inevitable fact of life, it is ridiculous to suppose that a close election can’t be valid unless you can match each ballot to a voter. Rossi lost, get over it.
Lawsuits continued
State law allows any registered voter to contest an election on a number of grounds, including illegal votes. Neither Coday nor Stevens’ filings refer to specific parts of the state law that governs election contests.
Of course, not. Why bother with the laws (RCWs) that the legislature passed concerning the elections. Why should they address any state law, none of Vance’s theories have. Let’s contest the election because it just doesn’t seem fair.
Didn’t their moms tell them life isn’t always fair?
What’s BIAW? Google says its “Brain Injury Association of Wisconsin”
Building Industry Association of Washington. You know, the people who make money putting up Mc-mansions on farmland, Rossi’s primary source of livelihood.
This blog is becoming Christine Gregovych’s to the point I can barely stand it.
Look, I have two words for the BIAW: FUCK YOU!
That said, I think this comment: Comment by Richard Pope— 1/6/05 @ 3:00 pm says a lot on my mind.
Also, I have requested a revote. My right-wing State Senator sent me a letter – it’s at http://josef-a-k.blogspot.com/.....to-my.html
One last thing: There are many purple state legislative districts. Folks, I just popped in my imaginary chill pill and am going to propose a suggestion: Why not wait on certifying Gregovich until AFTER the State Supremes?
By waiting, you put pressure on my camp to accept the result and not go upstairs. You also offer an olive branch and I will lean on my guys to take it and move forward.
Food for thought.
Why change the rules in the middle? Certify Gregoire and then if you have evidence meeting legal muster, contest.
Comment by jcricket— 1/6/05 @ 4:20 pm
Good question, my favorite questioner on the other side. You must be a lawyer :-).
I don’t think it’s a rule to certify Gregoire. It IS a rule to vote on it. Big difference. I’m just saying wait for the contests to be ruled on by the State Supremes. Serves me (in case we’re right) and serves you by pressuring for finality.
Hey–I just read that SEattle Weekly article on the recount. HOW DARE THOSE REPUBLICANS PRAY IN THE LOUNGE???!!! HAVE THEY NO SHAME??? THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN HANDING OUT CONDOMS TO 13-YR-OLDS INSTEAD!!!!
Why not wait on certifying Gregovich until AFTER the State Supremes?
Because the contests do not start until after certification. Also, the State Supreme Court has no normal role in elections until the final phase of a contest.
M –
Republicans need to keep the condoms themselves. I’d hate for them to run short.
Josef Vissarionovich: Look, I have two words for the BIAW: FUCK YOU!
What on earth could anyone have against people who have suffered brain injuries?
Josef–
Did you do your homework yet?
Read about it in the Seattle Times very soon I’m told…but then what do I know.
PS–jcricket is a guy Josef. You don’t give Smiley faces to a guy.
Comment by Joshua H— 1/6/05 @ 4:42 pm
Who the hell is Vissarionovich?
“I think we ought to cancel this interview” (Somebody I’m about to start quoting.)
Comment by Mr. Cynical— 1/6/05 @ 5:44 pm
I don’t know who jcricket is. But you need to apologize – and you kno why.
Comment by Mr. Cynical— 1/6/05 @ 5:44 pm
I don’t know who jcricket is. But you need to apologize – and you know why and to whom.
Comment by Josef— 1/6/05 @ 6:02 pm
Comment by Erik— 1/6/05 @ 4:34 pm
Not necessarily. The State Supremes could always be asked to move up their schedule. Oops, getting close to “rule change.”
Goldy, when you start spinning something you can go faster than a gyro. The reason I called the legislative hotline was at the urging of whiney Paul…in his memo he asked me to…
Right now, call the legislative hotline at 1-800-562-6000. Tell your legislators to do the right thing, stand up to Republican rhetoric, do their duty and certify the election on Tuesday. It’s time to get on with the business of moving our state forward.
The Republicans are working hard to make this election a circus. Let’s make sure they do not succeed.
Sincerely,
Paul Berendt
Lachrymose Thaumaturge,
Washington State Democrats
Next time you spin something as being Rossi’s or talk radios fault, better check the rats in your own party.
Comment by Chuck— 1/6/05 @ 6:15 pm
Thank you very much.
I probly didnt quite duplicate Pauls phone call.
OK Josef–
I’m sorry jcricket. Next time I see one of your cricket brethren under a rock I won’t squash it.
I’m kidding.
Let’s try and stick with the issues AND allow for some humor to.
Christine,
It’s amazing that you think the dems have a “hypocracy” card. From where I sit, that card was torn in two from the clutching hands of ideologues of both parties.
Hypocrisy, not hypocracy.
“nothing is more sacred than the integrity of the ballot box and if there is ANY possibility of fraud or incompetence, then it MUST be addressed.”, Michael Moore, on his web site.
Polite, but firm. I like it. Too bad his call for a re-vote doesn’t fit the party line in this state, only in the disgusting spectacle of Pelosi grandstanding in DC.
I’ll be watching for him (in orange) at the rally Tuesday!
Michael Moore is going to make another 100 million on his new expose of the drug industry. Their credibility is zero – only R fat cats and politicans cater to them for their slush fund money – . Proably more hated at this junction than tow truck drivers and meter maids combined….obscene profits..
The are simply corporate scum, the profits they make off sick and dying people, ONLY justified in uberCapitialist America. Oh, I forgot, uberBillionair Oil Pigs running a war for oil — two of a kind.
M- would it have stretched the sensibilities of the R’s to have invited all to pray with them……what would Jesus have done….or even Moses for the sake of this conjecture…
You missed the point…….tell us all, is there a secret prayer here that Dems can’t hear? God in a box not to be shared?
I also got the impression they were doing some drinking in the lounge as well….maybe a puff or two….all for the sake of country and vote
bby, tell it to Mayor Nickels. Sounds like Moore’s grand plan might put a damper on Nickels’ plan to cater to the biotech companies. He probably doesn’t know he’s catering to companies run by people more evil than his staff of meter maids!
The funny part of it is that Moore is open about all the money he rakes in with his attack films but Ralph Nader still tries to hide all the money he raked in by doing basically the same thing for 40 years.
Oh well, I still think it will be hilarious to see the Moore himself swaddled in orange holding a “re-vote” sign.
As I recall, Gregoire is planning to take $500 million of the tobacco settlement money and spend it in biotech research to benefit the drug companies. Rossi was opposed to this, and said this money should be used for what Gregoire originally promised when she got the tobacco settlement several years ago. Namely programs to help people stop smoking, and health insurance for low income people.
bby, we keep learning that God ‘in a box’ is exactly where the left wants him. We all know this. Can you see it now—“The Republicans are mixing church and state by inviting people to pray at the recount!! They’re trying to form a theocracy!!! eeyaaaaaa” CALL THE ACLU!!!!! (runs screaming, running in a circle and wringing hands)
Comment by Mr. Cynical— 1/6/05 @ 6:25 pm;
Well, I will try to get that letter.
Oh, and bby, you anti-american types are one big reason why I’ll always stay involved in politics. Somebody has to cancel out your anti-capitalist vote
Well, well Goldy (and all you other Vance-haters) – you are going to eat this so heartily up I shouldn’t put in the hyperlink but I REALLY want Goldy to please read it (and giggle) as they agree with him that Chris Vance is destroying Dino Rossi for his own political ambition at http://www.thereaganwing.com/m.....age_id=147 . Oh yeah, and they call Dan Evans “ultraliberal”. My oh my, this group is beyond the pale.
I’m going to share some more exploits from the far-right-wing whack jobs at “The Reagan Wing” for your amusement and Goldy’s future use – – –
…we believe that the grassroots Republicans are conservative and, if given the knowledge that they have the power, through the election of State Committee members, will give themselves a conservative State Chair; a Chair who believes in the Constitution and not its erosion by Judges, a Chair who believes in property rights not the Growth Management Act, a Chair who believes in the Republican Platform and will not obstruct the Platorm Committee.
SOURCE: http://www.thereaganwing.com/m.....age_id=130
– – – – –
Eat that up. What a bunch of whacky chaps. I am trying to see if they actually put liberal and Vance in the same sentence. I figure we all need the amusement.
Ok Josef. Almost every one of your posts have been mis-spelled gibberish and your antics of plugging your site have been obnoxious to many of us.
However, I have to give you a bit of credit on this one with the article you cite:
I assured the Senator it was true: The “re-vote” campaign existed. And not only that, but that State Republican Chairman Chris Vance (who, of course, knows what a charade this is) was posturing for the media, and spending the Washington State Republican Party’s money on radio ads, an information campaign, petition campaign, media and legislative phone-in campaigns, email and letter writing campaigns, and is rallying supporters to go to Olympia next Tuesday.
The point of the article is that Vance is taking such an aggressive hard line with the recount nonsense and launching the party into combat so that he can’t be replaced. He is using the issue to leverage his campaign to stay in control of the GOP in WA. The powers that be in the GOP in WA are afraid to replace Vance as it would signal weakness in the revote effort and the GOP generally. (Can’t change generals in a time of war right?)
[Joseph even dropped the silly slavik slurs. Amazing. Maybe I should visit his web site.]
Here’s another bash at Chris Vance from “The Reagan Wing”:
“Chris Vance, our current chairman, represents a tradition of disingenuous left-leaning chairs”
http://www.thereaganwing.com/m.....;page_id=5
GIMMIE A BREAK!
Oh, that’s the website whining about Vance’s rules about GOP primary contests.
josef, Well that was certainly disturbing. Does this guy have a few axes to grind or what?
Comment by Erik— 1/6/05 @ 11:18 pm
I just hope you too laugh and laugh heartily. Vance = liberal???? YEAH, RIGHT! THE PAST FEW WEEKS PROVE OTHERWISE!
My blog is http://josef-a-k.blogspot.com
Comment by zip— 1/6/05 @ 11:21 pm
Yeah, “The Reagan Wing” does. If that is the worldview of some GOP’rs, then my oh my THEY have a problem.
I just hope you find this funny. That stand-up guy Vance a liberal asked to serve another term by Governor-elect Dino Rossi? Weird!
M – anti capitalist? You must be kidding. I own three small business and a great investment portfolio.
I just hate capitalist pigs… just the greedy pigs.
The whole tone of the articles has a creepy dark side feel. Made me shiver more than smirk.
The idea (which this guy hates) of Vance running for the Senate in 2006 was the most disturbing part. It’s best overall to keep the party hacks like Vance and Berendt in hack typs jobs, not elected offices representing citizens.
I’ve been following the HorsesAss posts since November 2nd, and not posting much myself, save for a few debates with Goldy himself. I truly respect Goldy’s writing ability and vigor. He’s definitely been carrying the torch for all of you.
But, I’ve noticed something over the past few days. The number of comments to posts has dropped, and apart from the usual defenders of the left such as Christine G, jcricket, etc. most of the posts are now coming from defenders of the right such as Chuck, Mr. Cynical and Josef.
And, if you study Goldy’s own posts, his vigor is not what it once was. At some points, he seems to not even believe his own rhetoric anymore, instead merely writing to continue to valiantly carry the torch that he has truly carried well for you all.
What does this mean?
I believe that the wind is leaving the sails of the hard core Dems in this state. As more and more evidence comes out that many of the votes are tainted, the more balanced among you are starting to agree that indeed, this election was a joke with respect to an accurate result. Furthermore, you’ve realized that many moderate Dems across the state, like my friend who called me tonight from Magnolia who voted Bush/Gregoire have deserted you. My friend is strongly in favor of a re-contest.
And, even in your denial, you’ve all seen and noted the polls. You know that there’s two thirds of the state vote outside of Seattle and whether you view them as simply a majority of Washingtonions that outnumber you 2 to 1, or a bunch of crazy redneck Republican farmers from the other side of the mountains, you know that they do indeed exist, and that their outrage at this election and the insulting definace that you’ve shown to obvious irregularities is not warming the to your arguments.
So now you must ask yourself, what is at stake here? Are you doing real damage to the Democrats, by asking legislators to fight to the death? What are the future political implications for these candidates and for the Democratic party as a whole? And why be so fearful of a revote? The fear is viewed as partisan hypocrisy, which further detracts from your cause and causes many to wonder what you have to hide? The revote gives you another fair shot, and in fact, a real chance at legitimacy and even some absolution from all the sins of King County elections. In fact, it just might even put Gregoire in office.
I can gaurantee you one thing. No one in this state that is for the revote is going to let up until it happens. There is incredible pent up frustration in the majority of Washingtonions because their deepest sensibilities of what constitutes a fair outcome have been offended. It’s no longer about Rossi/Gregoire. It’s about the process that has failed us.
Ignore this at your peril.
Comment by zip— 1/6/05 @ 11:30 pm
I agree. Plus, Chris Vance is a stand-up guy from what little I know of and have seen of him as a Dinocrat. But I also think Dr. Cruz-Uribe the centrist should have had his candidacy treated more respectfully (same w/ Reed Davis). It would have done no harm, as the guy was eventually rulled illegal for running.
That said, why my wayward Marsha must hang w/ the likes of them and Tim Eyman is unbeknowst to me. But I figure some shame from you guys might help…
bby, You seem to be anti-capitalist to me, too. How much profit is “too much” for any business? (Including yours). Who are you to say? Let the market (which is very heavily regulated) decide. Maybe if the health insurance market was more freed up, the drug companies wouldn’t be able to gouge like they do. As things stand now, we are locked in to only being allowed to buy overpriced health plans in this state because of the demo’s over-regulation. (Or maybe you don’t buy health coverage for your employees). And those are the kind of plans that feed “BIG DRUG”.
Jeff – Couple of comments on your theory
1) Quantity does not equal quality. It’s easy for the right-wingers to cut and paste from uSP or Chris Vance’s talking points. Doesn’t make it convincing.
2) The left (including the Dems/Gregoire) current strategy is to assume the mantle of the office of Governor (much like Bush just took office in 2000) and properly act as the winners. Engaging the Republicans in a tit-for-tat fashion would only lend more legitimacy to their crackpot theories.
We’ve seen that here, despite nearly constant debunking of every “theory” the right wingers have ever proffered, they’re more than happy to offer a new one and claim it builds on the old. That’s not a “build up of evidence” it’s a “chin-high drift of factoids” and Republicans hope to use this strategy to confuse the public with an overdose of innuendo and accusations. The best defense is to make your position perfectly clear and avoid further confusing the debate.
3) My personal take on the increase in posting of the right, especially the repetitiveness and ratcheting up of rhetoric is that the right has grown increasingly desperate and are in an all out PR war to attempt to win a re-vote, because they know they’ll lose in a contest. If they had good evidence, they know they’d win a contest and Gregoire/Dems would be toast.
4) Be careful about putting too much faith in the right wingers who post here. Certain right-wing serial posters are not exactly who they represent themselves to be.
I guarantee that if the legislature certifies Gregoire, and the Republicans fail to contest the election, the public will forget about all this nonsense (except maybe to support a bi-partisan election reform bill). The public will move on with their lives, just like they did in 2000. And Republicans will risk being seen as “sore losers” if they try to bring it up again. If Republicans contest and win, then whomever is the Republican candidate most likely would win any new election contest. If Republicans contest and lose – they’re toast, at least in the short run.
But despite your theory, the public isn’t going to rise up in arms and support a re-vote if the legislature doesn’t. That’s why the BIAW, Tim Eyman and the Republicans are so desperate to astro-turf the legislature into thinking there’s widespread public support for a re-vote. It’s their last chance (because they don’t have good evidence for a contest).
Hmm, zip, how do you explain that Canada, which has nationalized/socialized medicine, has far cheapar drugs than we do? They have far more regulations than we do, and yet spend far less as a percentage of GDP per person on healthcare.
In fact, nearly every country in the industrialized world pays less than we do for drugs (look at Japan for example) and healthcare. Some even provide better coverage than we do. We have some excellent doctors in this country, but what they’re stifled by is the insurance company reimbursements, not regulations.
I’m not arguing that Canadian medicine (or any other country, in particular) is the model to follow (necessarily), but your argument is bunk. More regulation does not equal more expensive healthcare.
Comment by Jeff B.— 1/6/05 @ 11:33 pm
Beautifully said, as a K-E & Dino supporter. Well put.
Pardon me for thinking out loud, but that post pushed me over the edge into doing so. As somebody who watched Recallifornia closely, I see more of Gray Davis in Christine Gregoire. Had Gray Davis been more civil about a populist uprising and said, “If they want to spend millions of their own hard-earned money as taxpayers on getting rid of me, that’s their right. I respect that. But I was legitimately elected and I think the position of Governor deserves more than a circus for an election contest.” Had he been more respectful and noted all that he did for the state, he could have potentially closed up the 10.8% spread between himself and the pro-recall forces. Making people angry only hurts YOU is what I’m saying.
Now, as a revote appears near, there are many questions. For one, and for reasons I will explain, I hope the State Dems are smart and learn from Recallifornia and put up a new candidate such as Andrew V. of Permanent Defense or Phil Talmadge. Two, will this be a runoff or a total revote complete w/ write-in ballots and Ruth Bennett trying to get her 5% fix for her party?
Well, this brings me to Gregovych’s plight. Throwing out the whole concept of a revote – calling it “ludicrious” (sp?) in the mainstream media – and whining about the cost as an unbearable burden just like Gray Davis will result in the above. My way of dealing w/ it would have been, “Okay, I urge the other side to tone down the rhetoric and send to the State Supremes your court challenge. I will urge the State Supremes to care only about doing right by the voters. If a revote is necessary, or if the State Legislature – elected by you and I – demands one, fine. I will win again and I will win again because I will work harder to earn more votes cleanly through more passionate campaigning.” You get the idea…
Attitude matters. Gregovich got that name because it whined and whined like the Ukrainian guy and can’t accept the fact that there IS vote fraud and disenfranchised votes.
So I just hope Phil Talmadge can run again so I can have a Democrat to cheer for. Marummy can have a big bouquet and a card. But I feel a new election w/ new candidates is a possibility.
Who knows? We need to create new rules for this situation – NOT “change them”. Big difference.
Again, nice post Jeff B.
jcricket, So since my talking points are my own and are most definitely not from SP or Vance, it follows that I am not a right winger? Thank you, I didn’t think I was. You seem to be a bit paranoid. I suggest you lighten up and maybe think about this a bit deeper. Jeff B says the public’s “deepest sensibilities of what constitutes a fair outcome have been offended.” An accurate assessment of what will determine how much damage Gregoire did to our state when she started us down this path when she called for the hand recount. If the revote does not happen, the public will find another way to get back at the government. My belief is that this means Eyman is back. And that it’s Gregoire’s fault. Unless there is a revote.
Since I am not a right winger, maybe you should actually think about this not just spew out a lengthy predictable retort.
jcricket, I buy health insurance for 30 employees so don’t tell me the health insurance market in this state is properly regulated. More carriers won’t do business in WA than will.
But, I’ve noticed something over the past few days. The number of comments to posts has dropped, and apart from the usual defenders of the left such as Christine G, jcricket, etc. most of the posts are now coming from defenders of the right such as Chuck, Mr. Cynical and Josef.
And, if you study Goldy’s own posts, his vigor is not what it once was. At some points, he seems to not even believe his own rhetoric anymore, instead merely writing to continue to valiantly carry the torch that he has truly carried well for you all.
What does this mean?
Jeff, first of all Goldy is a one man show. UnSound has multiple posters. However, I agree with your observation. The left interest groups have not even weighed in really in the recount issue. For instance, labor, the environmentalists, Washington State Trial Lawyers, teachers, etc have not even started to weigh in on the recount controversy yet.
The reason is Gregoire has won. Sam Reed has certified her as the winner. She is going to be certified next week and I just received along with many others an invitation to the “inaugural ball” (which I will not attend). She will physically occupy the governor’s mansion within the next week. Rossi will be fuming in a boiler room with Vance in Bellevue. Neither Reed nor any of the 39 county auditors take his allegations seriously.
Thus, the difference is, the mainstream demcrats simply are not that worried. Perhaps the election will be overturned.
However, to date, Rossi has still not found any basis, which would need to be proven in a court of law, would overturn the election results.
Agree with you Erik. There is no need to start a gigantic pr machine like the repubs. Their’s is basically falling on deaf ears. So much talk with so little foundation. The election is finished. They will try and contest it and I am confident that their ‘brilliant’ lawyers will continue sticking their feet in their mouths. Most Dems are looking beyond this children’s play of the far right and getting on with their lives.
Most Dems are looking beyond this children’s play of the far right and getting on with their lives.
Yes. That’s true. Rossi doesn’t need to concede. Gregoire will be the governor when Locke leaves on January 12th in 5 days. There’s nothing for democrats to do but regret that Bush won. But….that is another Blog.
bby — With three businesses and a ‘great portfolio”, you’d best watch your backside amongst your leftist brethren. To them, you ARE the capitalist pig. they think YOU are greedy. There’s a sort of self-hatred going on with you, unbeknownst to you. Listen to your own rhetoric and look at your life. Who told you to hate what you are and what you invest in??And those of us with small businesses and portfolios are better off not hating the economic engine that enables us to have those portfolios. I personally think that small business people are american heroes, but I do not hate the larger businesses that I own shares of. They do a service to this country too, and I’d hate to see anything happen to any company on the DJIA. Don’t spend so much time hating; just go out and be productive and make money and stop feeling guilty about it. We’re all better off if you do that instead of apologizing for liking to make money and being well-off by bashing ‘capitalists’ (you ARE one) in order to get invited to the leftist wine and brie parties, where everyone claims contempt for capitalism and profit while wearing their gucci shoes and sending their kids to Lakeside
“If the revote does not happen, the public will find another way to get back at the government. My belief is that this means Eyman is back. And that it’s Gregoire’s fault. Unless there is a revote.”
My genuine fear too. You just watch, you fellow anti-Eymanists out there. Think about TOMORROW, not today. If there’s a revote – either legislatively or court-mandated – you should be thinking about telling Gregovych to step aside for Talmadge and you’ll get me to join him and leave Battlestar Marummia, and you can win!
Guys, SecState Reed is now saying Battlestar Marummia (named after Marummy, our fearless leader) is on target and could get a revote. Remember Recallifornia, my friends.
Remember Recallifornia. You don’t want the Vaninator (our Governator by virtue of mouth and mein) to run the state, do you? Or (whom will become) his puppet Rossi.
Good night and good will to all.
Here they come!
The lawsuit also will likely include allegations of votes by dead people and felons, and multiple votes by the same voter. But those issues, while garnering much attention among Rossi supporters in recent days, will be secondary.
“If you’re bringing one of these things, I suppose you throw everything in,” Gorton said.
Bring it on. Bring out the dead and the felons Slade.
Wait. Don’t laugh. Slade has a backup posse:
Two people got the jump on the official Republican challenge and filed complaints with the Supreme Court.
One was from Dr. Arthur Coday Jr., a Shoreline pediatrician and Republican Party donor who did his own research and drafted his own complaint.
“It was an issue of conscience, to be honest,” Coday said.
Oh my.
Jeff, on the 5th I got over 250 comments, and on the 6th I got about 150. I suppose you’re using Snark like math to extrapolate that I’ll hit zero over the weekend? And considering there’s only one of me and a dozen of them posting over at (u)SP, I think I do quite well for myself, thank you very much.
Now considering that the Democrats are going to hold ranks and certify Gregoire despite the Republican’s planned drama-queen walk out, and that the GOP is filing an election contest that features provisional ballots as their primary argument… how confident do you feel right now?
If voters want another election, they’ll have a shot in 2008.
M… how can you expect to defeat us evil Democrats when you have no idea who we are? Try to break out of your left v right stereotypes. I myself am an entrepreneur — not a fabulously successful one if you measure such things by money only — but an entrepreneur nonetheless. Democrat does not equal communist.
Sheesh.
M-
Goldy is right for a change..
However bby’s idea of 3 different businesses is probably having 3 seperate 900#’s for Phone Sex. I doubt if they help build anything of value.
Far more likely is that Cynical knows that his argument is crap – as many Democrats run “small businesses” as Republicans, and run them successfully. So he tries to throw out an ad hominem attack because he’s lost the argument (yet again). But hey, Cynical’s idea of a business is being posting under multiple aliases for the BIAW. So perhaps he’s just uninformed about what a business actually is.
It’s just like when people threaten the Dems with the “return of Tim Eyman” if they don’t support a re-vote – that’s proof they’ve lost the argument.
The reason people like Cynical always present a “laundry list of complaints” about the election isn’t because there’s massive fraud, it’s because they hope that you won’t notice 99% of what they argue for is complete bunk. They’re hoping that it makes it appear like they’ve got a strong case because they’ve said a lot. Well, that’s not the way it works in court.
Rest assured, what goes around comes around. I think the boomerang is changing path-right into the tired eyes of a worthless piece of human garbage known as Christine Gregoire, and her sniveling little asshole of a mentor, Gary Locke. Keep congratulating your whiney liberal asses of a corrupt governors election. You cant justify it to me. ‘But, in the end, that’s what it’s all about, putting litter in it’s place.’ -Stephen King
Potty mouth – are you a non voting felon, you language is prison shower room stuff
No one has to justify it to you Mark and no one is scared of your thinly-veiled threats. You’re so obviously someone who would vote for anyone the Republicans would put up there, which makes you totally unimportant as far as Democratic election strategy is concerned.
So since you can’t be convinced, perhaps you should just do the rest of us a favor and shut yourself off from the world and any influences that might change your fragile little mind. Wouldn’t want you to accidentally stumble on some facts and have your brain explode.
I’m not calling the legislature, either way it goes it will be challenged in court. Last night @ my county Democrat Party meeting, one of our legislators said he will vote to certify the election for Gregoire. And Sheldon will probably vote for Rossi’s position. I’ll just wait and see what shakes out in the weeks to come. Go Brad!!!!
-Aaron, absentee votes are not separated from the voter at the time they are cast, not like the in person voter. If we went to elections by mail, we would all be tied to our vote, and that would be a good thing in my opinion.
+bby, the insurance industry has to be in a virtual tie the drug industry!
+Richard Pope, “Gregoire originally promised when she got the tobacco settlement several years ago. Namely programs to help people stop smoking, and health insurance for low income people.” And this is exactly what she and the state should stick/go back to. At our Demo Party meeting in October, Gregoire took a lot of heat from the audience over the tobacco settlement!
-M, where would the capitalists be without us money spending peons? I too am an entrepreneurial Democrat, and I’m doing quite well thank you. BTW I really like being my own boss.
-Jeff B., “I can gaurantee you one thing. No one in this state that is for the revote is going to let up until it happens. There is incredible pent up frustration in the majority of Washingtonions because their deepest sensibilities of what constitutes a fair outcome have been offended. It’s no longer about Rossi/Gregoire. It’s about the process that has failed us.” What makes you think that a re-vote four months after the previous one, will be handled any better? I for one don’t think so, I think we need to let this play out to the bitter end, and then completely over-haul our state’s election process to address each and every blip on the voting screen.
Comment by Mark— 1/7/05 @ 8:52 am
A little too far…
Comment by jcricket— 1/7/05 @ 8:01 am
Not true and you know it about Eyman. You ever spend some time talking to Eymanist voters? I have. One of them happens to be a relative. (But I’m NOT one.)
Josef – my point about the “beware the return of Eyman” argument is that it isn’t real support for a re-vote. Threatening Dems with some potentially “scary consequences” if they don’t support a re-vote, isn’t a convincing argument.
The “appeal to force” (using Eyman) is a sign the re-vote argument is weak – it can’t stand on actual merits (like, you know, evidence of fraud or wrongdoing). And yes, I know that you don’t use this to support your argument. I’m talking about people who do.
Simply put – No one should support a re-vote because Tim Eyman might possibly gain some political support if there isn’t one.
Hmm, zip, how do you explain that Canada, which has nationalized/socialized medicine, has far cheapar drugs than we do? They have far more regulations than we do, and yet spend far less as a percentage of GDP per person on healthcare.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Let me help you understand how this happens, the USDA puts a drug through the paces before it legalizes a drug, now in many cases I agree that it may be too much research, but non the less it happens, the other countries do not require this, they lean on our results. We also have a very sue happy society here so combine all of that and there you have expensive drugs. Really simple math when you think about it, we create our own cost overuns…
Comment by jcricket— 1/7/05 @ 9:59 am
Well-said. I prefer not to use this. The logic is good enough for me, as is. But I do hold concerns that Eymanism could come back. Note I said “concerns”.
Also, I believe that when you put white-out on ballots, you have dead people and felons voting (NO – ABSOLUTELY NO – EXCUSES!), irreconcilable voting records, provisional ballots unchallenged because they were intermingled w/ standard ballots and more together w/ the close spread ==> you have to consider a runoff or a revote w/ new, clearer rules and better election management. Now if it were just a close result – I’d say something completely different. Like move forward. But it’s a lot more than that.
Moreover, as Hamilton’s Pamphlets ( http://hamiltonspamphlets.blog.....pamphlets/ ) writes:
– – – – –
Our government, both state and federal, depends on the “consent of the people to be governed”, when we say that a Re-Vote would set “a dangerous precedent” or there is no law stating that we are “required” to do it haven’t we just handed over one of our fundamental rights and freedoms? Something like a government of the people, by the people, for the people should stand head and shoulders above a government of laws to rule the people (to protect us from ourselves? no thanks!).
Christine Gregoire has not legitimately won this election. It is rife with fraud and incompetence. However, because of that fraud and incompetence it casts a shadow of doubt over Dino Rossi’s victory as well. This is a unique situation in our state and country’s history. I believe it requires a unique solution. A Re-Vote.
– – – – –
Something to chew on, eh?
Of course, there’s http://www.revotewa.com if you share my view.
Comment by DCF— 1/7/05 @ 9:21 am
Actually, absentee votes are separated from the voters name prior to being counted, once the outer signature bearing envelope is validated. It sounds to me like you’re suggesting that we give up blind balloting, which I think would be a terrible thing to do.
Sorry Kiddies, I’ve been a bit busy with my parental responsibilities… I know you’ve all missed me!
BBY – I SIMPLY CANNOT LET THIS ONE FLY BY WITHOUT COMMENT, particulary in light of the article that follows:
Michael Moore is going to make another 100 million on his new expose of the drug industry. Their credibility is zero – only R fat cats and politicans cater to them for their slush fund money – . Proably more hated at this junction than tow truck drivers and meter maids combined….obscene profits..
The are simply corporate scum, the profits they make off sick and dying people, ONLY justified in uberCapitialist America. Oh, I forgot, uberBillionair Oil Pigs running a war for oil – two of a kind. -Comment by bby— 1/6/05 @ 9:22 pm
Those horrible big bad pharmaceutical companies hmm? I wonder how many are in your ‘healthy portfolio’:
http://www.reason.com/rb/rb010505.shtml
January 5, 2004
Do Drug Companies Kill Poor People?
How for-profit medicine helps even the poorest Bailey
“Less than 10 percent of the U.S.$73 billion spent globally every year on health research is allocated to study 90 percent of the world’s health problems,” claimed a report from the Global Forum for Health Research (GFHR) in 2002. The GFHR is an independent foundation under the auspices of the World Health Organization (WHO) that aims to redirect global research priorities toward the needs of the world’s poorest people. Its report added, “For example, of 1,233 drugs that reached the global market between 1975 and 1997, 13 were for tropical infectious diseases that disproportionately affect the poor.”
The international medical charity Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) similarly issued a report in 2001 condemning eight of the world’s largest 11 pharmaceutical companies, representing combined sales of nearly $117 billion, for reporting “no research activities in the last year for fatal diseases that almost exclusively affect the poor: sleeping sickness, Chagas disease and leishmaniasis.”
“Drugs are not developed according to public health need, but according to profitability,” bemoaned Dr. Bernard Pécoul, director of MSF’s Campaign for Access to Essential Medicines. “A new paradigm is urgently needed to address this fatal imbalance.” Among other things MSF is calling for a potential “essential research obligation” mandate that would require companies to reinvest a percentage of pharmaceutical sales into R&D for neglected diseases, either directly or through public R&D programs. MSF also favors a global treaty on R&D for neglected diseases that could provide a framework for such mandates and help make drugs for neglected diseases global public goods.
So, distinguished international medical experts accuse companies in the developed world of putting profits over people. Millions of the world’s poorest people are dying each year, they maintain, because of this alleged “10/90 Gap” in global health research priorities.
But there is less to these charges than meets the eye.
Rates of sickness and death are tragically higher in poor countries than they are in the rich countries. But can these higher rates of morbidity and mortality be chiefly blamed on the selfishness of rich pharmaceutical companies? An interesting new report, Diseases of Poverty and the 10/90 Gap, by the London-based International Policy Network (IPN) sheds considerable light on this question. (Full disclosure: I have reported on international trade issues with support from IPN in the past.)
First, are 90 percent of the diseases that afflict poor people in the developing world really being ignored by pharmaceutical company researchers? IPN points out that, according to WHO data, tropical diseases (trypanosomiasis, Chagas disease, schistosomiasis, leishmaniasis, lymphatic filariasis, onchocerciasis) account for only 0.5 percent of deaths in high-mortality poor countries and only 0.3 percent of deaths in low-mortality poor countries.
Furthermore, many treatments already exist for many of these diseases. Schistosomiasis is treated with praziquantel for 30 cents a dose; onchocerciasis can be controlled with ivermectin (which is being provided free of charge by its manufacturer Merck & Co. for as many people as needed, for as long as needed). Lymphatic filariasis is treated successfully with a combination of ivermectin and albendazole (which are being donated free by Merck and SmithKline Beecham). Note that these treatments were not developed by WHO or MSF researchers, but by profit-making private companies.
This leaves leishmaniasis, trypanosomiasis (sleeping sickness), and Chagas disease without really effective treatments. If these horrific tropical diseases are not the main causes of suffering and death among the poor in the developing world, what is?
Tuberculosis, malaria, and HIV/AIDS account for nearly 18 percent of the disease burden in the poorest countries. Effective methods of prevention and treatments exist for these diseases. Diarrheal diseases kill 1.8 million people each year and acute lower respiratory infections kill 2 million children under five annually. Vitamin A deficiency blinds 500,000 children per year. Again, cheap and effective treatments for these diseases already exist. About 25 percent of people in low-mortality poor countries also die of such “rich country diseases” as heart attacks and cancer. Current research on these diseases will benefit people in poorer countries as their disease profiles converge on those of today’s rich countries.
As the IPN report notes, poor countries “currently benefit from drugs that were originally developed for wealthier markets”—treatments such as vaccines for polio, pertussis (whooping cough), diphtheria, and measles, and drugs to treat tuberculosis, HIV/AIDS, pneumonia, and many others. In fact, 90 percent of the products on the WHO’s list of 319 essential medicines were originally discovered and/or developed by private companies in wealthier countries.
So if effective medicines are in fact available that could save millions of lives and avert much suffering among the world’s poorest people, why are so many of them still sick and dying? In a word, poverty.
The abject poverty in which billions are mired is chiefly sustained by bad government economic policies. By adopting better economic policies, governments in poor countries would go a long way toward improving the health of their citizens. In addition, governments often impose high tariffs and taxes on medicines. For example, taxes account for 55 percent of the retail cost of medicines in India, 34 percent in Nigeria, 33 percent in Pakistan, 28 percent in China, and 24 percent in Mexico. And finally, in nearly all of the poorest countries, public expenditures on the military vastly outstrip those on health care.
“The health problems faced by the world’s poorest populations are not caused by a lack of drugs specifically related to their problems and diseases,” notes IPN. “The real problem is ensuring that these populations can actually access vital medicines.” It turns out that the best way to address public health needs is through the profit motive. The IPN report correctly concludes: “A global R&D treaty, in which the profits of pharmaceutical companies are heavily taxed and their intellectual property rights undermined, would be almost certain to have the unintended consequence of effectively turning off the tap of innovation that is essential to dealing with the world’s changing health problems.” That would hurt the rich, but it would hurt the world’s poor even more.
Ronald Bailey is Reason’s science correspondent. His new book, Liberation Biology: A Moral and Scientific Defense of the Biotech Revolution will be published in early 2005. His coverage of the COP10 conference is also being carried at Tech Central Station
So please bby, please DO show the world what you’re made of, your compassion and concern. Encourage your hero Michael Moore to go after those big bad ‘capitalistic pigs’. Do it for the children poor. And then, order up a few Annual Reports, kiddo. Read what else Merck, Johnson and Johnson, Pfizer GIVE AWAY, as in FREE, here at home and across the world.