According to Chris Vance’s backup singers over on (un)Sound Politics, KVI is planning a “Ukraine-themed rally” in Olympia on Tuesday. I suppose that means poisoning the water supply with dioxin. (Which I believe is actually one of the BIAW’s top legislative priorities for the 2005 session.)
Wait a minute… Republicans are trying to stop King County from counting legal votes, and they get to protest? Are we living in a friggin’ Orwell novel?
Well why let the righties have all the fun? I say we organize a protest rally of our own, this Sunday, some place symbolically (and conveniently) located in or near Seattle. I’ll bring the beer and the TV news crews.
So if you’re up for a little fun at Dino Rossi’s expense (or just want to get your ugly mug on TV), let’s start brainstorming and spreading the word. I promise you… this’ll be fun.
A) I doubt VERY seriously the BIAW wants to increase the amount of poison in our water… Besides, need I remind you that Dino Rossi is an environmentalist who sits on 2 environmental boards?!? Namely some green beltway board and the Nature Conservancy?
B) I propose that we allow Seattle to secede from the state and make itself its own state. You can start the paperwork tomorrow…
Oh, that’s right you need the rest of us to populate your office buildings, help pay for your Alaska Way tunnel and help feed you!
Look, man if I were one of the disenfranchised – I’d sue King County Elections and demand an investigation and a new election!
Great Idea Goldy, Maybe I will catch the nwa flight back from bangkok just to be there and laugh and what the neocons (who never do anything wrong or illegal) are trying to do. Luck to all (even the unsound ones)
BTW, the Shark let me back into the unholy land errr unsound politics. He must be mellowing out with the reality that CG will govern our wonderful state for 4 (make that 8) years
I wonder why can’t Democrats ever accept the genuine possibility of voter fraud? Or of sheninangans at King County Elections?
I have a simple suggestion for you all who have been disenfranchised: Sue King County Elections! Demand a new election! (Seriously. FYI: I’m breathing down Marummy’s neck asking her to issue a statement about one… BTW: I was the first singer for one weeks ago!)
Democrats can accept the possibility of voter fraud, but I fail to see how it applies here. Voter fraud is dead people voting. Voter fraud is multiple ballots from the same individual. What we have here is perfectly legal ballots that were improperly excluded from the initial machine counts. Again, to avoid the appearance of impropriety, I’m not against counting these 563 + 150 (let’s ignore the 22 for this discussion) ballots separately and under harsh scrutiny.
And I also accept that there were (obviously) failures in how King County stored/scanned the signatures. I don’t describe that as shenanigans. I call it an unfortunate mistake, that is now being corrected under the light of day. I don’t think there was any malicious intent here. As Goldy has pointed out, all the problems so far have hurt Gregoire voters in her strongest county. So that’s a pretty bad argument for fraud by the Democrats. If they really wanted to commit fraud, they would have been better off just “sneaking these ballots” into the original machine count, despite what they thought was a lack of signatures.
I have an even simpler suggestion for those of you being disenfranchised. Talk to the media. Call TV stations, call the papers, call the alternative weeklies. Get out in front and make it clear that while you’re mad at King County, they are making it right by counting your votes. You won’t stand for being told your vote is “suspicious” because Chris Vance is scared.
And Josef, to address your first post (which I know was mostly sarcastic), while it is true that sometimes money from the rest of the state funds major roadway projects in King County, those roads are very often traveled by those outside of King County (I5, 99, 405, 90, etc) when visiting our lovely Seattle area :) I can, however, understand how it could chafe someone in the eastern portion of the state to feel like they’re paying for “roads they’ll never drive on”. But taxes always work this way. People without kids pay for schools too. People who never get sick pay for county hospitals. Taxes are not a “pay as you go” scheme.
It is also far more often the case that the money paid by King County residents as taxes goes to pay for services in counties they will never visit. Or did you seriously think the aging population of tiny Garfield county (for example) pays enough in taxes to cover their EMS systems, rural hospitals, etc.
This trend is mirrored at the Federal tax level as well. “Blue” states pay far more into the Federal tax system than they receive in benefits. All of the states that take in the most from and pay the least to the Federal government are Red. So the “Red states” that complain the most about their federal tax burden actually aren’t paying their “fair share” (if you look at it from the consumption perspective). It doesn’t bother me (as a Blue stater), because I understand that’s how taxes work.
Comment by jcricket— 12/18/04 @ 4:53 am
You made a beautiful point to my sarcastic points in B aimed at Goldy. Maybe you should put that in a letter to the editor?
As far as the disenfranchised, it is suspicious. It warrants a full investigation before counting. Even then, the law is tragically clear: NO votes after certification. NONE.
The law needs to be rewritten for these tragic circumstances and again: We need a runoff election. You have my solemn word I will not waver from this core position. And I will breathe down the gorgeous neck of my favorite flamethrower on this issue…
New idea: Why don’t all you disenfranchised either:
a) Protest at Manual Recount HQ as your lawyers serve Dean Logan with a lawsuit?
b) Go up to the Space Needle at a time and place and drop down from the landmark the complaint to be served to King County Elections?
c) Greet Dean Logan as he comes off the ferryboat from his safe home in Kitsap County with a lawsuit and the grumbling of Larry Phillips and all the other disenfranchised voters?
DO WHAT “GOPolitboro” Chairman Vance would do – SUE THE KING COUNTY GOVERNMENT KLEPTOCRACY! (Turnabout’s fair play, eh?)
Start at the top: with Ron Sims. It’s HIS county and HIS county is rife with all manner of questionnable workings, this just being the latest to come out. The Elections system in KC is badly inept; the KC voters should be hopping mad about that, at those who operate it and try to fix that. Don’t they see that unless the system and those who oversee it are changed/corrected/better tracked or whatever, their votes may always be lost, then found, then lost, then found. For crying out loud, they could be “finding” votes for the next decade. Do they honestly think there’s no limit to it? Again, I say, march on your County Government, demonstrate and protest there, because that is where the problems are. The voters of KC, all of them, owe it to themselves to get that smarmy area cleaned up and cleaned out, sanitized and restaffed prior to another election. If they do not, how can any of them have any confidance at all in their system?
Thanks for all the comments about wht Seattle Folks are going to do about King County elections
Remember Seattle by law must contarct with King County. Most of the people screwed over live in Seattle. Rest assured there will be reform.
Josef – no, the smaller counties have the problem. Seattle just voted to bond itsellf for 1,8 billion for the monorail. On top of new libraries, concert hall, new municial courthouse, new central police station, new city hall, and too many mega projects to list.
I don’t remember the media or any city officuial pleading for Skagit county to pay a fucking nickel of the billions.
Hiway 99 is a state route. If you think it is a good policy for the State of Washington to start abandoning its hiways, beware that roads that serve less people will go first.
It is just a little premature to start solving the KingCo mess, but it will be solved.
First finish the election
Comment by Rae— 12/18/04 @ 8:06 am
Good point. We need a good gent to replace that character. I’m not from King County so I’m not available. Any volunteers?
DEAN LOGAN OR ANY OTHER ELECTIONS DEP’T EMPLOYEE NEED NOT APPLY.
Runoff election: terrible idea, truly the twilight zone. I’m losing respect for Munro fast. Everything done so far has been within the rules, which include manual count and court appeals. When Supreme Court decides on the KC ballots and the counting’s done, that should be it. Loser needs to concede graciously to help the state move on. Gore swallowed hard and did it in ’00, would Rossi do the same?
Comment by gb— 12/18/04 @ 8:30 am
Seems to me as if I’m not paying for some of Seattle’s hyperservices… and they’re paying also for the state highways that take me to where I want to go.
And the dams that keep the Skagit under control…
And supplement the county gov’t…
I could go on.
Comment by Rudy— 12/18/04 @ 8:37 am
You’re just trying to provoke a fight at this hour of the morning w/ disenfranchised voters, an ultratight election, and zilch trust in King County Elections…
I say A-GAIN: RUNOFF. AND SUE THE DARN KING COUNTY ELECTIONS DEPARTMENT!
Goldy, I think foks are a little bummed, and Christmas is looming….some of my friends have already left town.
Suspect the Dems will rally at the red neck rally in Olympia. Thruston County can turnout folks, and there is much anger among Dems. And older fellow was on TV, has been voting for decades, teaching scouts, sunday school — so sad his sacred right to vote thrown in the trash, no court willing to protect him —great poster child.
The ultimate protest will be when Eymans next initiative passes because the public is so fed up with state govt after this fiasco. Which Gregoire started. And the state will be screwed. Thanks, Christine!
Josef – you could go on about what? Somehow the reality about tax money flows in this state is exploding in the face of the smaller, poorer counties…..all those East side hiway projects that for decades absorbed more of the state hiway money than West side projects that put more money in the pot and had morepeople to serve, I think the jig is up.
Too many insulting catcalls about the urban taxpayers and there is a bit of a rew reality chek about getting back 100 per cent of our tax dollars.
To be insulted about how unfair it is, and how little they get for their taxes, when if fact they have been spending a chunk of my taxes, and all taxpayers in the metro centers — as has been said, that dog won’t hunt anymore.
The state economy seems to be turning up again, and that will mean immediate changes in the retail centers who get sales tax benefits, and if you look at the real change- UP, up -real estate tax base in Seattle – King County is balooning. Parking lots into office towers. Four plex buildings torn down for 26 units- the math gives giant tax increases over time. We can pay our bills.
But their will be a lot more questions why we are paying bills in Eastern Washington. Trust me. That is the coming tax revolt.
Better stop whinning Josef. Sugar Daddy and Momma from that blue vortex are going to close their wallets.
Josef, you don’t like Timmie — if I remember right all his crap was voted down in Seattle. You have problem in voted eucation too.
Josef… you and your buddies want to argue that if our votes don’t count we should blame KC, go take it to another thread. This thread is about getting together a spontaneous protest that blames the real villain: Dino Rossi.
He and his party could have allowed these legal votes to legally count, as standard practice would have allowed, instead they went to court to attempt to gain a technical advantage. If wins because of this, it may be legal, but it will be shameful, and he will deserve the blame for disenfranchising hundreds Ds and Rs… simple as that.
Congratulate his lawyers for being clever, but there is no honor in what he is doing.
Again… this are legal votes from registered voters! Nobody is disputing that… nobody has shown any evidence that anything but a clerical error is involved. We found the mistake, and now we need to fix it, to protect the rights of the voters!
So who’s with me? Let’s have a little protest in front of the TV cameras, and then go out for a beer.
Goldy: “the real villain: Dino Rossi”. Not a chance that will convicne the public you are being realistic. If this is the battle cry that is plastered all over the news for the next few months the demos will lose even more credibility with the public.
Try this one: “the real villain: incompetent administration in King County”. Or “The cynic who started us down this path of lawsuits: Christine G. She knew it would screw the state but did it anyway.”
Goldy, to blame Dino Rossi for this is a bit silly.
Look, the Rossifarian concern boils down to 2 words: Ballot security. Another 2: Vote integrity.
We have no idea what has happened to these ballots in the 6 weeks since the election. They have not been under continious lock and key, guarded by sheriff’s deputies. No one can say with any amount of certainty that these ballots have not been tampered with, added to, etc.–ergo, they cannot be counted. I, along with many of you, watch the gubernatorial electoral morass on TV every night and saw the footage of the cart sitting outside of the cage…
THIS is what happens when you disrespect Chris Vance when he called for increased ballot security measures in mid-November, namely with the blank ballots. You get sued. Don’t you feel the deja vu?
I will say it again: You sue King County Elections, they have to compensate you. Money is not going to do the job. A new election is what you’ll get. And deserve.
That is what I want, what Ralph Munro wants, what SecState Sam Reed is warming up to, what some Democrats are warming up to…
The Rossi camp isn’t about any of these issues. Originally it was “we support every legitimate vote be counted — let’s have voter responsibility” but since that would make Rossi a loser, he and the Rs had to change tactics.
Similarly, the Democrats were about “counting every vote” but now that real questions about the King County process have come up, they are completely silent in questioning the weird happenings there.
Back to basics…it’s about “what do i need to do, say, SUE, etc. to get MY guy in the governor seat — EVEN IF that means going against everything I said before when I thought then that different things need to be done, said and SUED to get my guy in then!”
Geez…this is so blatant it’s funny.
The US Supremes will decide this…using Bush v. Gore as the precdent and Rossi will be seated in Olympia. Can’t we just skip to the part?
Kudos again to Kerry for conceding without going through all this on a national level.
King County is being up-front about its mistakes and is attempting to correct the errors under the harsh light of media and partisan scrutiny. They’re not villians.
I somewhat agree with Goldy – but would rephrase a bit: The villians are the people trying to ensure that the legitimate votes of King County voters don’t get counted. Not a chance in the world that Christine is a villian here. I wouldn’t necessarily call Dino Rossi a villian either. Both are subject to the whims are their parties.
To be honest, I would hesitate to call anyone villians here. Republicans are doing what I expected them to do (get their guy elected by any means necessary). I feel, unfortunately, that this is what our political system has become.
Comment by jcricket— 12/18/04 @ 10:08 am
I agree with all but one aspect: King County Elections is ever so respectfully a villain. By their nonfeasance with ballot security requirements, they disenfranchised you.
Chris Vance is just doing his noble duty in ensuring Rossifarians don’t get disenfranchised. Paul Berendt is doing his, but he needs to demand a runoff election and sue King County Elections for their malfeasance that makes one necessary…
Comment by tom— 12/18/04 @ 10:07 am
A-MEN. I regret every moment of this gubernatorial electoral morass every moment I wanted a hand recount. Had Gregoire backed down, we would not have this unpleasant trip in the twilight zone, with vague regulations.
Zip one thing I do not understand is that (Zip) your name or the number of brain cells you have left functioning. Joseph, many times you are in the same boat. Get a grip on it. Christine did the absolute right thing and she would have never had to do it if the original count waqs done properly. Hopefully the state can learn from this Red Fiasco and have the system working for the next election run.
All of this consternation certainly has been trying, but it hasn’t made me any less confident in the results of this race. I feel everything we’ve discovered makes me more confident that we’re getting an accurate account of the will of the people. That’s why I’m so insistent that the legally cast 573 + 150 (and maybe 22) ballots be counted.
I know that the pro-Rossi crowd thinks we’re in the Twilight Zone, but you have to at least admit that there’s an alternate view out there. One of the tough things about being on opposite sides of this issue is that it’s damn-near-impossible to see things without your “partisan-colored glasses” on.
I know that I see rulings in favor of counting these ballots through my bias, even as I try to be level-headed and impartial about it. It’s only fair to admit you are doing the same (from the opposite perspective).
And Jim – can we avoid the ad hominem attacks? Doesn’t help convince anyone of your point. I’ll give anyone a free pass if motorcynicalhomeman comes back ;)
jim p, see previous posts from last week: we established that I am NOT an idiot.
I believe there is agreement that this sucks for the state, voters disrespect the state more now, govt will be hurt by this. That said, my point is that at only one time during this processs was there a choice made that could have kept this from happening: when Bumbling Chris G called for the hand recount. After that step was taken, we were on a road with no forks in it; lawsuits spawn more lawsuits; rhetoric spawns more rhetoric. This was entirely predictable and she made that choice. Tell me where I’m wrong, jerk.
zip – Again, calling for a hand recount was the right thing to do. It may have made you more uncomfortable, but that’s not true for all of us. And despite the lawsuits, I’m glad we’re getting closer to an accurate count of the votes for the Governor’s race.
The people are resilient, the government is resilient, and I see no permanent damage from this perfectly legal hand recount.
recount = mother of all rules changes. Josef, what D’s have said they’re warming to the idea?
Rudy – I think you mean runoff (not recount). Yes, a runoff or a new election would be the mother of all rule changes. All we’ve done so far (2 machine counts, 1 hand recount) have been according to existing law. Obviously there’s a difference of interpretation about some remaining ballots in King County, but that’s being settled legally as well. Gee, you’d think we invented some kind of court system so they could interpret the law on thorny issues like this. Oh wait, that’s exactly what we have.
I don’t expect perfection out of the world, I just expect people to use the legal avenues for redress (like a TRO or the hand recount) to correct any inequities they see. And since the only people I see panicking are Republicans, I’m not inspired to say, “Wow, they’re right. The world is falling apart because of this recount.”
Keep in chugging.
Yes, I did mean “RUNOFF = mother of all rules changes” – thanks –
jcricket, we disagree but life goes on. Just hope the fallout from this episode doesn’t help Eyman cripple the state.
EYMAN…..ARRRRRRRRRGHHHH
you are so right…he could seize this controversy (thank you republicans and democrats) to do a “save the state” initiative….with the public level of discontent with the current election recount, he might just succeed.
Oh what may we have wrought?
I can only hope that lie-man has his hypocrisy exposed when he’s discovered to have defrauded his supporters. Same thing happened to David Duke. It amazes me people continue to buy into his assertions that he’s some “Robin Hood” type.
Eyman’s basically a politician that doesn’t work in the legislature. He claims to be outside the system, but that’s complete bull. Actually, I take that back, he’s a huckster out there to make a buck for himself. Nothing more.
Folks- get a grip. Timmie is not a good govt activist. He makes money doing this- lots and lots. Unles you think a number of fat cat R’s are going to bankroll him…. this is not his cup of tea.
Remember King and Seattle have voted against his crap. Josef, better get some better voter education going if you fear Timmie. He is completely discredited in the Left Wing Center of the Universe.
jcricketgoldyjbbobfromboeing and others:
This blog has turned into everything Goldy claims to abhor and worse. My wife is right, none of you people are interest in the truth or connecting the obvious dots about a pattern of incompetence and deception in KingCo. Anyone who disagrees with you people is immediately demonized and unfounded allegations are thrown out accusing the person you disagree with of being someone else. Or you accuse that person of not answering your questions or making unfounded allegations or you gang up and minimize. I really doubt at this point any undecided people are even looking at this site.
Mr. Goldstein, your partisanship and venom has consumed you. Perhaps a vacation? I’m going to drive down to Mexico for 5 days with no computer. I’ll bet when I return you will still be verbally masturbating each other to no end. How unsatisfying.
All you have to do is connect the dots. My suggestion is to get Mr. Logan out of there and bring in a 6 person team of other experienced County Auditors (3 R’s and 3D’s) to review what has happened and to oversee completion of this count. Mr. Logan has a huge appearance of fairness issue. And his prior employer. #2 ,am at the Washington State Labor Council unfortunately makes the appearance even worse. I think before you throw rocks at the R’s, perhaps you ought to look at your own glass house. Because despite your constant denials and excuses, the KingCo Democratic Party machine has some corrupt parts.
There will be no support for a run-off —- this is real time political strife. Not a time for any of the real players, the two parties, to join in an experiment on how to do an election.
Ralph Munro needs to teach college classes in poli sci at some community college. That will give him an onging platform to expound.
That’s a complete and utter load of crap, Andrew. These ballots were secured with all the other ballots… just look at the 150 found yesterday, INSIDE THE CAGE! That’s where the 523 were secured before they were retrieved. Furthermore, they are all secured inside their ENVELOPES, so there could be no tampering.
Vance can blather all wants about “suspicious” ballots and “corruption”, but yes yet to cite a single incident or scrap of evidence relating to these ballots.
We’re talking about disenfranchising 723 voters due to clerical error… you’re all for this because it helps your guy… but don’t pretend it’s the right thing to do.
Bob here – very simple, despite all conjectures to the contrary.
FIRST- the Supremes will get their chance- early nest week. Yes or No, King can count the disputed ballots.
SECOND – all the while, the counting continues in King county with added ballot or without them. Seems they are about 60 per cent done this far, hundreds of thousands of ballots not disputed, just long hard work. All carefully under observation.
THIRD-under whatever guise, plan, or disputes, King will finish counting, post their final return and the statewide hand recount- it is over.
There will be an elected gov.
Who will sue next or contest? My bet is not the democrats……I think the R’s think the US Supreme will reach into Washington and annoint Dinno. Now THAT will be history………
despite the partisan bias of most posters here, I find the comments on this blog far more informative than the Repub site. And that is despite the disagreements I have posted here.
My compliments, Goldy for this site. Thank you!
But as I stated the other day, the burden of prrof is on King County regarding the security of these 723 ballots. They have a terrible track record so far and that is why they must prove the ballot security was not compromised.
I’m partisan? Well, duh-uh! I occasionally spit venom? And you were expecting what from the guy who sponsored the “Tim Eyman is a Horse’s Ass” initiative?
The point is, unlike some other people, I wear my bias on my sleeve. And while I’m not afraid to express my passion and emotion, I always try to back up my assertions with facts and logic. And when I’m asked a direct question, I give a direct answer.
However, you Motormouth, and your doppleganger the Cynic, aren’t interested in a debate, you just want to cast about rumor and innuendo in an attempt to distract people from the real issue: THERE ARE 723 LEGALLY CAST BALLOTS THAT THE GOP DOESN’T WANT KING COUNTY TO COUNT.
It makes no difference how many signatures Larry Phillips has on file with the SOS, and it makes no difference how incompetent KC election workers were in losing these ballots that were clearly set aside in a secured location with the intent of having their signatures verified later. The fact is, these ballots were found, and RCW 29A.60.221 says they should be counted.
Come on… refute me for once.
Lets all take a flyer on the Supremes. Will dampen the tension and good fun—
MY bet- the Supremes will allow the ballots the canvassing board wants to count in King- Because, they talked in their arguments about the correction proviso in the law. And one of the reasons they did not previously intercede was their own take that ongoing counting problems could be solved by the existing mechanisms. Canvassing boards are the ABSOLUTE authority in every county on all elections. Reduce their role to zero- real confusion. Other counties used the correction clause not just King- need for orderly end and finality of the hand re-count.
I’d sure like to see some LOGIC (other than Black Helicopter variety) applied for those suggesting that somehow Logan invented these ballots on behalf of the dems. I believe they have postmarks, not some mysterious private frank. Furthermore, in all probability if they had been counted as they should have been during the original count, it would have Chris not Dino leading. I am unhappy with Logan and company also, but only for not being meticulously careful with ballots.
Re: Supreme Court, yes it’s hard to see them overturning past election practice, current practice already apparently used all over the place in this election, and safety valve argument pushed by SOS and seemingly accepted in their previous discussion (if Bob is correct in that – I didn’t hear arguments). But, stranger things have happened…since we’re having fun, a Sea Times article referenced possible appeal to US Supreme Court, so why not take a flyer on that as well? Oops, so much for ramping down tension…
Logan’s job is to secure those ballots Robin. I guess the bar of expected conduct has dropped so low in Washington that no consequences can be expected. People like Mr. King want others to turn their heads about Mr. Logan’s background as the #2 man, a paid Lobbyist, for the Washington State Labor Council. Frankly, I have a lot more respect for Lobbyists that work for 1 organization. Many Contract Lobbyists like Mr King swim in the smarmyness of horsetrading favors for their own benefit. They never like to be challenged. Take a look at Mr. King’s PDC filings. He sure talks a good game and is the consumate name-dropper but doesn’t appear to be very successful. Now he is trying to publicly support Rossi BUT also support the Dems efforts and not be critical of anyone in power. Go ahead and toss bricks at folks without power Mr. King. That’s safe and that’s all you ever do. Pathetic Mr. King. I’ll bet you are angling for some appointed position with Rossi but have hedged your bets with careful comments about others in power. Smarmy.
Comment by Goldy— 12/18/04 @ 12:04 pm
Andrew who? And granted some of these ballots just happened to be in the cage. But some of these ballots were NOT. Note what I said earlier.
Comment by zip— 12/18/04 @ 12:29 pm
Good point.
When I get back, let’s do a little research about past public comments made by Mr. Logan which he was the #2 man with the huge cog in the Democratic Party political machine, the Washington State Labor Council. Perhaps he never really stopped being their Lobbyist and Campaign Co-ordinator?? Time will tell. Officials in high & powerful positions must be carefully and consistently scrutinized. Past affiliations must be transparent, disclosed and dissected. The Dem partisans want transparency all right, just not here. And while we are at it, how about some Public Records requests of folks like Mr. Logan, Mr. Sims and especially Mr. Phillips and their staffs? Is that a witch-hunt? Only if you are afraid something might be found. Phone record, e-mails etc. are all fair game. While these elected officials are probably too smart to leave a slug trail, perhaps someone else did. Do we want transparency or not? If ever a process called for a full independent investigation, it is this one. Let’s start by bringing in those 6 outside auditors to finish this process and do some other oversight and then a full independent investigation before Gregoire is seated.
Again – as Goldy pointed out, the ballots were secured, and are still in their outer envelopes. There is no possibility of tampering. Plus, the evidence shows the ballots were received with proper postmarks and signatures. Then they were looked at and then the 723 votes were improperly rejected before (during) the inital machine count, and have
been locked in a secure cage since then. Besides the speculation (with no evidence) that all King County votes have been insecure, no one has offered a single shred of evidence that would explain why these ballots are fraudulent.
Given the evidence of their security (outer seal still on, postmarks, signatures that match those on paper file, locked cage location), I’d say that King County has easily met any reasonable burden of proof that the votes are secure. Yeah, a third party had to point out that the votes were improperly rejected. Then they went and found them in a secure location (maybe Cheney was hiding there too). Then when they realized that none of the ballots they found started with A or B, they found the other stack underneath another box of ballots (still sealed, still secure, with the law, media and partisan observers watching).
Chris Vance certainly wants to arouse suspicion, but if he had any kind of hard evidence, it would have been presented by now. All he’s got is innuendo.
I’d like to see the chain of reasoning (as Robin said) that would show how and why the Dems and/or King County would have manufactured these votes. First, why choose fraud that only hurts Gregoire? Second, why not just sneak ballots into the first count? Why arouse suspicion when all eyes are on you and all the votes can be verified (can call up the people on the list). It just doesn’t make any sense. And the burden of proof (as I have repeated about a million times) is on the people making the accusation (that’s you, Republicans).
Sure, the other 22 votes that were found, weeks later, in unsecure locations, may be suspect. Even if they’re in their outer envelopes and have proper signatures, it’s possible they may have been deposited later. I’m more willing to entertain that possibility
But I’m simply not going to acceede to any argument that implies there’s anything wrong with the 723 ballots, their chain of custody or their legality without strong evidence. None of which I’ve seen. The best the doubters have offered is, “I can’t believe they didn’t find this out up-front” or “KC screwed up so they must be incompetent so how can we trust them with anything” or “Don’t you find it suspicious?” Not evidence, not persuasive.
Uh, yeah motorhome. That’s a witch hunt. You’re just like Nixon looking at the tax records of his “enemies”. And Jim has proven himself, time and again, to be a reliable source of information. I’m a veteran of enough boards (and USENET) over the past 15 years to know a doppleganger when I see one. So unlike Goldy, I won’t give you the benefit of the doubt. You’re Cynical in another guise, and he’s proven himself a liar.
I know some of you have mention Tim Eyman. If you’ve read previous postings to this great blog, then you know how much I hate that manipulative pig… and there’s nothing his movement (and his ledgers) would like than desperate conservatives.
That said, the burden of proof is on King County to prove ALL of these ballots according to case law. Let me go dig up some quotes and report back…
Finally, on Republican Radio, Chris Vance is threatening an election contest but would prefer a revote. An election contest allows for a full-blown court fight. . . as the twilight zone gets worse!
Best thing that could happen right now: Rossi wins next week, legislature dems and Munro and y.t. force Rossi to accept a runoff… We can do it, but only if we have the balls to do right by the state and the disenfranchised.
Worst thing: Gregoire wins and GOP election contest. You know how I feel about Christine Gregoire, so I’ll spare this thread.
Again, I say sue King County elections department!
jcricket: KC screwed up so they must be incompetent so how can we trust them with anything…. exactly. I don’t want to take their wrd for it that these ballots were secured. If they have proof, fine. But let’s make them prove it.
We Rossifarians don’t need a smoking gun – we just need to recall the TV pic of the ballots outside the cage and unguarded.
We also await the chain of custody…
I’m sorry the law is such a hurdle to some of you, but it’s the law! The law is very clear on this: If you cannot prove beyond any doubt – I emphasize any – doubt the ballots are valid, you are legally obligated to disregard them.
You can debate that point as I go back to work for a county gov’t that does NOT play games with ballots for a few hours…
Sorry, I had to come back and add one more thing: You might want to go to the top of the Space Needle at precisely 5:27 PM and show just how big you are! Boy, that’d make a great cover to your legal complaint!
If you want, I’ll talk to a legal investigator I know and see if I can get a class action lawsuit going for you…
I would protest, but there’s too much Christmas/Holiday traffic downtown. Reminds me of a line from a movie
Guy 1: I saw this bright light and people waiting at the end of it saying, “move towards the light”
Guy 2: Well, why didn’t you go?
Guy 1: It was too far.
Josef… I hate to say it, but you’re just being a tool for the Republican propaganda machine. The GOP is not suing to prove the ballots were secured, or are legal, or haven’t been tampered with… they are suing to disallow them, regardless of their validity. They don’t care that whether they are legal or not, they care that they’re from King County, and thus will likely put Gregoire over the top.
Furthermore, they don’t really believe they have a good chance of winning in the Supreme Court… they just want to destroy the legitimacy of the entire election so that they can push their case for a new election. Don’t believe me? Explain the GOP “talking points” memo trying to push a new election.
And do you really believe Vance would be pushing a new election if he thought he had the chance to win this one? This is the real world, Josef… you know the kind of world where saying you’re an environmentalist is not the same thing as actually being one.
Comment by Goldy— 12/18/04 @ 3:05 pm
Beautiful points. My telepathic link to this blog told me you’d reply about… now so here goes:
a) I read the GOP legal documents – they are at a blog called “Pull on Superman’s Cape”.
b) Let’s say for a minute that all of these ballots were true – and let me believe it or not quote Kiristin Brost several days ago – in the name of “count every legal vote” in this current firefight, I brought this up with Kirby Wilbur. He told me that after certification, that’s it. No more ballots. I checked and he’s right. A judge in Pierce County and almost certainly eight State Supremes concur with that chubby moderate conservative of the airwaves urging calm. And with this Dinocrat.
c) I have NOT seen “the GOP “talking points” memo trying to push a new election.” And I – as you can tell – am cushy with the Marummy.
d) Screw Vance on the issue of a revote. I want one because of the total, zippo legitimacy of this election. I don’t need to rent the Vaninator’s brain – mine works just fine.
e) The Washington Conservation Voters is heavily biased against ANY conservative. If Rossi was really anti-environment, trust me – he wouldn’t talk about reinvesting in state parks. Instead, he’d talk about doing more harmful things to the environment than streamlining some regulations. And sit on anti-environmental boards, where they probably say things like, I dunno, “F- THE ENVIRONMENT!”
Tell you what – you want to convince me Rossi is anti-environment, doubly so since I may have to vote again for Gov’r, name for me please either a) the anti-environmental boards Rossi sits on or b) No less than three Rossi votes for legislation that have directly contributed to increasing pollutants?
Josef… I’ll post the GOP talking points memo so you can see it exists for yourself.
And, “streamlining regulations” is conservative shorthand for screwing the environment. I’m all for reinvesting in parks, but that’s not the same thing as preventing a developer from willy-nilly draining a wetland or diverting a salmon stream, just because it runs across their property.
There’s a reason why Rossi was backed so strongly by the building industry, and now it’s become apparent that Dino cares more about protecting property rights than he does voting rights.
a) Please post the memo… I will have it verified by my friend in Rossi HQ ASAP.
b) That’s odd that you think that streamlining a regulation to make it easier to read and apply is going to give carte blanc to developers – what I wanted was specific examples of trouble.
b) But, in the name of specific examples and because I respect your work, I am now going to quote from the GOP Motion for Temporary Restraining Order on pages 13 and 14 that resulted in last Friday’s tragedy (I agree with you, the situation is horrible) in italics:
Because of the security issues surrounding these ballots, it is quite likely that they will later be determined to be void even if there is not specific evidence of tampering. In addressing a case involving ballot security issues, the Illinois Supreme Court wrote:
These ballots were void. There is nothing in the record
before us to indicate that any of them were actually tampered with by any unauthorized person, but it is entirely obvious that the opportunity to do so was present. It is the entire theory of our ballot law, as expressed in all of the cases, that once a ballot has been marked by a voter in secret, from that time on it shall not be subject to any opportunity for any
other person to mar, change or erase it. It will be found in all of the cases that the question for consideration by the court is not whether the ballot has been tampered with, but whether or not an unauthorized person has had an opportunity to do
so. If the opportunity has been present seems to follow the presumption seems to follow that it has been used.
Clarkv. Quick 377 Ill. 424 430 (Ill. , 1941)
The Washington Supreme Court has similarly affirmed an order voiding an election where ballot security was questionable.
…there was ample opportunity for fraudulent changes to be made, and there was, in terms of the statute, negligence on the part of the election officials that made that fraud possible.
Since the exact number of ballots which had been altered could not be ascertained, the court determined that the proper remedy for this neglect was the holding of a new election.
Foulkes v. Hays 85 Wn.2d 629, 632 (1975).
Sorry, but this is dynamite for us Rossifarians (I like that nickname).
Let me try again to get the formatting right:
Because of the security issues surrounding these ballots, it is quite likely that they will later be determined to be void even if there is not specific evidence of tampering. In addressing a case involving ballot security issues, the Illinois Supreme Court wrote:
These ballots were void. There is nothing in the record before us to indicate that any of them were actually tampered with by any unauthorized person, but it is entirely obvious that the opportunity to do so was present. It is the entire theory of our ballot law, as expressed in all of the cases, that once a ballot has been marked by a voter in secret, from that time on it shall not be subject to any opportunity for any
other person to mar, change or erase it. It will be found in all of the cases that the question for consideration by the court is not whether the ballot has been tampered with, but whether or not an unauthorized person has had an opportunity to do
so. If the opportunity has been present seems to follow the presumption seems to follow that it has been used.
Clarkv. Quick 377 Ill. 424 430 (Ill. , 1941)
The Washington Supreme Court has similarly affirmed an order voiding an election where ballot security was questionable.
…there was ample opportunity for fraudulent changes to be made, and there was, in terms of the statute, negligence on the part of the election officials that made that fraud possible.
Since the exact number of ballots which had been altered could not be ascertained, the court determined that the proper remedy for this neglect was the holding of a new election.
Foulkes v. Hays 85 Wn.2d 629, 632 (1975).
Hope this works…
Josef – I know you like repeating yourself on Dean Logan, but you are really just wasting free advice to those who know the drill
A class action suit was mentioned weeks ago. Most proably will happen. Since you ballot was counted you cannot be a paintiff.
There are ten good govt. groups in King, all very concerned about the state of affairs. This is the last election in King County that Dean Logan will administer. Trust me.
Of course you can continue from Skagit County to tell us what should happen, but believe me, folks are only waiing until this is over.
You might consider a complete review of thing in Skagit so this sort of thing never happens there. Review all proceses, procedures, and accountibility from those who handle the ballots. Make no assumptions.
Suggest it will come from the legislature for all counties. I know about ten legislators well, have talked to two of them so far. Josef- talk to those you know in the legislature.
I think there are fixes need in many places. Has been a learning experience— need to improve all over the place.
Reform is the buzz and competent staff.
Remember Logan was trained at the offices of Sam Reed. Perhaps that training is flawed, accepts some errors, and has no way of feedback or self correction.
The Democrats will live with the results. R’s will seek to get the US Supreme Court and the graces of the annointing court.
Goldy, remember the Rove folks are here. The attorney for the R’s was DC er the national party sent.
.
Goldy,
Let’s not go over the whole campaign again at this point, but…
“Streamlining regulations” by Rossi does not mean raping the environment. Anyone who has ever tried to build something lately in this state would agree that streamlining is a good thing.
Rememember Boeing and Longacres? Gregoire ran Ecology Dept. at that time. Boeing’s inability to build a new HQ there is one of the reasons they left. Because Gregoire had Ecology so discombobulated when she ran it, it took Boeing millions of dollars worth of studies etc to find out the bad news. Why is that a good thing and who in their right mind thinks we need 4 more years of it?
Comment by Bob from Boeing— 12/18/04 @ 4:08 pm
Bob, I intend to lean on my arch-conservative representatives (which I am living in their district by believe it or not 1 stinking mile because of redistricting games). We need election reform, that is for sure.
The reason why I am urging litigation is because if the people, and not the blowhards were the ones taking ownership of their cause – it would be much more convincing in court. Also, because only the courts can remedy the situation at this point.
In fact, Chris Vance said on Republican Radio today that anybody can file an election contest, as in average citizens. Not that it’s possible (consider the source), but something worth looking into.
Josef – the only question of security are the 22 ballots. The reat have been secured, lock, sealed, under guard, in a steel cage, valuts, you are putting too much stock in rumor and attorey speak.
No one will prove thet King County ha not secred their ballots by any prevailing standrd. Not true…..deputy sheriffs all over the place.
Chris Vance really has the Dino folks waltzing to any propaganda he wants to put out. —
Yes, indeed, you or I can file anything we want. Need a case, some facts.
Voiding the election – With the Washington Supreme Court having made one and about to make another, second, adjudication….. would like to see some body tell them to void the election which they have had their fingers in – after it is all over……hah….mainly because you are a sore looser…hah…hah
That is why C Vance is saying ….well.. someone can file it. The R’s long shot is the US Supreme Court…….does Rove/Bush Inc. control that too?
Your last 2 postings I agree with, but 2 exceptions:
a) “Josef – the only question of security are the 22 ballots.” There were also those ballots set aside outside of the cage – as televised all over the place. I will try to get the screenshot tonight.
b) New evidence before the State Supremes might change their minds…
Josef, again, there is no evidence that the 723 were ever left unsecured… they’ve been treated like all the other ballots. Unless you are suggesting that ALL of KC’s ballots should be thrown out (which actually, I think is where the GOP is going.)
But on top of that… all of them are still sealed inside their postmarked and signed outer envelopes. These ballots are about as tamper proof as one can get. Again, there is not a single specific allegation that has been made regarding the chain of custody of these ballots. The focus of the GOP lawsuit is to disallow them, not because they are illegal, or have been compromised, but because they weren’t counted the first time around. Very simply… the don’t want to count these votes because the know they will put Gregoire over the top.
There’s absolutely nothing noble about this. It is pure, hardball, Tom DeLay politics.
Josef – I’d like to see your hard evidence that the 723 were left unsecured. All the press reports I’ve seen have mentioned the ballots inside the locked cage, same as the other ballots and their re-discovery carefully filmed and observed.
Except for the 22, I haven’t seen any reliable reporting (i.e. not Chris Vance’s press releases) showing that King County has done anything unsecure with their ballots.
I am going to finish up some work and first thing in the morning, you’ll get your evidence…
Remember the burden of proof is solely on King County Elections – and it has to be airtight proof of no tampering. Absolutely airtight.
Vance just on KIRO, the Rove thugs must be helping to write his talking points. One would have thought the ballots had been left out in a dark alley for 5 weeks.
Zip… I’ve got nothing against “streamlining regulations,” as long as that’s what we are really talking about. But in reality, to the BIAW types, streamlining is just a pretty word for deregulation.
What it comes down to is, I simply don’t trust a Rossi administration to be balanced, just like I expect you don’t trust a Gregoire administration to be balance. But yeah… that’s not really the issue now. The issue is whether we’re going to do the best job we can under the circumstances determining who really got the most votes in the election, or whether we’re going to let Republicans disenfranchise 723 citizens just because maybe they can.
Here is what you say: “there is no evidence that the 723 were ever left unsecured” and “The focus of the GOP lawsuit is to disallow them, not because they are illegal, or have been compromised, but because they weren’t counted the first time around.”
Here is what the GOP compalint says: “16. The 573 absentee ballots have not been kept secured since they were rejected in November 2004. While counted ballots were placed in sealed containers and kept in a fenced, locked area as required by statute, rejected ballots were not placed in sealed containers but were kept in open trays. On at least one occasion, the rejected ballots were removed from the fenced, locked area and kept overnight in an open area in open trays.
17. On or about December 13, 2004 the ballots were transferred from the Mail Ballot Operations Satellite office (“MBOS”) or the King County Elections Division to the King County Administration Building. The trays of ballots were not accompanied by any observers or a Deputy Sheriff from the King County Sheriff’s Office as was the normal procedure.”
Goldy, Stick to the facts. You partisanly mis-characterized the GOP complaint. The judge may rule on the “focus” you state or on the “facts” the GOp states.
I have seen people state over and over on this blog that security of the ballots is not in question at all (Bob even says they were in a vault). That is not what the GOP complaint says.
King County has had so many screw ups! Get it into your head that there is a possibility that these ballots were not secured. The proof that they were secured has to be provided by the County. If it is not proved, these ballots are tainted and should not be counted.
And another thing, as long as I’m in a ranting mood: The GOp complaint says:”Prior to the November 17, 2004 certification, King County Elections Division had also sent a letter to more than 1000 absentee voters giving them an opportunity to update their registration signatures. The 573 voters who submitted the rejected ballots at issue did not respond to that letter and as a result, their signatures were never updated in the digital signature files for King County Elections Division.”
Maybe Mr. Phillips is a liar?
Vance and company sticks to the facts only when convenient for them.
I realize this thread is about elections, but the claim that Dino Rossi is an environmentalist (first comment above) should not be left unanswered. See http://www.cascade.sierraclub......Record.htm. for a review of some truly awful votes by Rossi, including failing to protect clean water.
Good points Zip & Josef–
I concur Josef that ANY breach of security regarding these ballots are a no go. And it is up to the Election Officials to show a clearly documented chain of control of these ballots. And that means documentation that existed at the time, not something that is made up now. I believe Mr. Cynical may know somethings he isn’t sharing. For some reason, he went way, way overboard harping on this Larry Phillips issue regarding voter registration signatures. I guess time will tell if he actually has something. I doubt anyone is retarded enough to actually share specific evidence on any of these blogs. Just a bunch of jerking around.
Zip–you are coming around realizing how Mr. Goldstein twists things. He is a hopeless bloke.
Josef–excellent research re: Illinois Supreme Court. I’m sure we will be hearing similiar arguments.
zip, I respect you and I can kind of respect your ideas. But once again, if KC would have done their job properly we would not be in this situation, CG would have been certified already. And if this would have come about in the other direction, with Rossi failing by 42 votes, I would wager all of my worldly possessions that we would right now be in the same situation with the Repbulicans paying for this recount..
jim p: maybe so, and if that were the case it would be Rossi who had done the state a disservice by putting us through this. Maybe Nioxon in 1962 was onto something, like the public’s confidence in govt. is kmore important than a single election?
whaa whaa – tell your pals if they want their votes counted correctly the first time THEY SHOULD FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS: only vote once per candidate; if they fill IN the little circle they should NOT write in a name; make sure their name is on file; make sure the county KNOWS their correct address., etc, etc, ect, ad infinitum. I know it’s tough, but surely some of these folks can be taught the fine art of following printed instructions – even in King County.
zip – the best security of all, the contested ballots are still in sealed envlopes.
I suspect King Co has exceeded any standard of ballot security because they are not just sitting in an office but in vaults, fenced pens, cages, and security guards.
Sound pretty secure to me.
Vance just on KIRO, the Rove thugs must be helping to write his talking points. One would have thought the ballots had been left out in a dark alley for 5 weeks. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually compared to the King County elections department, a dark alley for 5 weeks might have been like a bank safe by comparison, the more I hear
Thinker – you’ve obviously missed the last few weeks here. These people did follow the instructions. King County made a clerical error and is correcting it. Your type of random ranting isn’t appreciated here.
“Your type of random ranting isn’t appreciated here.”
How lovely! Thanks so much for the warm welcome.
Of course it isn’t! Which is why posting here is all that much sweeter! Doesn’t it annoy you to be oh so prototypical lib who only wants to hear a point of view with which you agree?
You know, I do believe they made a “clerical error” when they sent out the overseas ballots to arrive to the military just one day too late to vote. I’m sure you agree they should correct that little “oops” too. After all. “let every vote count”!
Thinger… may I point out that other sites block people like you. To my credit, I don’t. But ranters of your ilk soon grow tired.
As to the military ballot canard… really? Are you saying King sent out the military ballots in this election one day too late to vote? That would be a scandal. So prove it, damn it, PROVE IT!
I’ve heard a couple of you righties raise this one before? So how come nothing shows up when I google this? How come Chris Vance isn’t foaming at the mouth over this?
You want to come here and post your contrarian opinions? I welcome you. Call people names, spew invective, that’s fine. But I draw the line at stating rumor and conjecture as fact. If you’ve got some scandal or corruption to beat us in the heads with CITE YOUR SOURCE!
But if all you want to do is fantasize about how people who disagree with you are so evil… then follow Cricket’s advice and hang out at Sound Politics, because we don’t appreciate being lied to.
Hmm is that typical here? Putting words into people mouths or subscibing ideas to them that are your own? Please, do tell me when and where I spoke of “evil people” or (heaven forbid) fantasizing about them? I really suggest you go READ some of the lovely invective spewed by the folks that AGREE with you right here on this website. After you chatise them, perhaps your hypocrisy won’t be quite as glaring.
Thingie… Great Cynical/Motormouth-like maneuver to avoid the question. People here know I’m actually a pretty patient guy, so I’ll give you another opportunity to answer my question. You wrote:
So if you’re going to employ gross incompetence or corruption like that, I ask you… CITE YOUR SOURCE! Give me a link… a news article… a single scrap of evidence!
If you can’t or won’t, then feel free to spew your opinion with invective, but take your rumor and innuendo elsewhere.
Your boy Dean Logan has said it publicly babe, as has Sam Reed. There’s been hours of discussion about it on the radio and the GOP is collecting affadavits from soldiers and from military families to use when the Dems take their fight to the Supreme court again. getting angry with the messenger won’t change the message, babe.
“Thingie”… now, aren’t you ever so clever? Prototypical babe…surely you can do better than that – or maybe not.
Comment by michael— 12/18/04 @ 5:49 pm
First I heard about the stuff at that website – I’m going to be raising a stink about this…
Comment by zip— 12/18/04 @ 5:41 pm
Thanks for my evidence… God bless!
Comment by ThinkerInSeattle— 12/19/04 @ 12:16 am
Calling Goldy “babe” on top of everything else makes me want to say this at full throttle: GO F— YOURSELF!
As far as military ballots, even Chris Vance is a bit skeptical and is clamoring for evidence. See, he’s not a black helicopter guy and frankly, after all of this – I might buy him a longneck root beer at the victory party after the runoff!
“Calling Goldy “babe” on top of everything else makes me want to say this at full throttle: GO F— YOURSELF!”
How lovely. I’m suprised the kiddies are allowed to be up so late. what you probably consider to be intelligent discourse is utterly tedious and predictable. Go to bed.
Comment by ThinkerInSeattle— 12/19/04 @ 2:01 am
You should talk a**hole. F-YOU. GOD BLESS DINO ROSSI…
Dictionary.com Josef babe, attempt to expand your vocabulary. Great big wide world of wonderful words and you limit yourself to boring few.
Comment by ThinkerInSeattle— 12/19/04 @ 10:49 am
I know more than a few big words – go visit my blog at http://josef-a-k.blogspot.com
I am no “babe” thinker. Are you Kristin Brost, by any change? You two seem to share the same propencity for bomb throwing!
Sorry darlin, I have no clue as to who Kristin Brost may be. Again though, I refer you to http://dictionary.reference.com/ : pro·pen·si·ty
Sorry darlin, I have no idea who Kristin Brost may be. Again though, I refer you to dictionary.com: pro·pen·si·ty
Since Thinker isn’t here to do anything but rile people up, I suggest everyone ignore him. Don’t feed the trolls.
poor jiminy: “It is not advisable, [James], to venture unsolicited opinions. You should spare yourself the embarrassing discovery of their exact value to your listener.”
And actually jiminy darlin’, I’m a 50 something Mom from unincorporated S Kiev County, married (to the same man) for 25 years with 3 sons, one in high school(private tyvm so you can benefit from my tax dollars in the government schools) one about to graduate from WSU (bought and paid for with NO student loans) and one about to graduate from law school in NH. Nary a tattoo, piercing, unwed/unexpected pregnancy, arrest or Koolaid drinker among them.
Whoop-di-do. The lack of tattoos and piercings and where your kids go to school mean nothing. I’m glad you’re proud of yourself, and since you’re so enamored of quotes, how about “Pride goeth before the fall”
poor jiminy: “It is not advisable, [James], to venture unsolicited opinions. You should spare yourself the embarrassing discovery of their exact value to your listener.”
You’re totally kidding, right? You think your opinions are solicited?
Pot. Kettle. Black.
And regarding you comment about student loans, jiminy… exactly where do you suppose the money comes from to provide those loans? Oh that’s right! The tax dollars of us productive citizens! Your Mom really should inquire at your school about a few civics lessons kiddo. And please, continue to enjoy my tax support!
Think again Thinker. Student loans. The operative word is “loan”. A loan is “something lent for temporary use” and is paid back with interest. Loans are not the same as government grants (which do come from tax money). And many student loans are obtained from private institutions (like banks).
And are you seriously going to assert that people who need student loans aren’t productive citizens? Because someone or their parents aren’t able to pay (up-front) for the full cost of education to better themselves they shouldn’t get an education (that they pay for as they repay their loans over time)? Nice values.
You can’t have it both ways jiminy (a la, I was for the 87 billion before I was against it) According to your criteria I’m a shirker because I actually honored my parental responsibility and paid my kids college (“BTW, you do realize that despite the fact thatyou “paid for” WSU with no student loans the education is subsidized for state residents, with your tax money.” Comment by jcricket— 12/19/04 @ 2:32 pm)
It’s a known fact that well over 48% of student loans are not repaid, only partially repaid or are picked up by an employer. Either way, as a consumer and/or a taxpayer I’m footing the bill.
And jiminy, don’t attempt to put words in my mouth (“And are you seriously going to assert that people who need student loans aren’t productive citizens? Because someone or their parents aren’t able to pay (up-front) for the full cost of education to better themselves they shouldn’t get an education (that they pay for as they repay their loans over time?)”- Comment by jcricket— 12/19/04 @ 6:48 pm) – it’s rude and you just don’t appear to have the requisite vocabulary skills. Furthermore, you cannot show where I ever said anyone with a student loans isn’t a productive citizen, nor that kids who can’t pay for college don’t deserve an education. Nice try.
Nice values? You betcha, kiddo. They are called the values of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, INTEGRITY and HONESTY.
On another note – how deliciously ironic that the same day Time Magazine announces George W. Bush as ‘Person of the Year’ happens to be the 6th anniversary Slick “Wagging his Willie” Clinton was impeached by the House of Representatives for perjury and obstruction of justice. Is this a great country or what?
But as you must know Tinker, the Times names the person of the year for either good or BAD. hmmmm I wonder which one of the categories Gestapo W Bush falls into.
Nice try:
Time Selects Bush As Person of the Year
Dec 19, 6:27 PM (ET)
By SAM DOLNICK
NEW YORK (AP) – After winning re-election and “reshaping the rules of politics to fit his 10-gallon-hat leadership style,” President George Bush for the second time was chosen as Time magazine’s Person of the Year.
The magazine’s editors tapped Bush “for sharpening the debate until the choices bled, for reframing reality to match his design, for gambling his fortunes – and ours – on his faith in the power of leadership.”…
Kelly said Bush has changed dramatically since he was named Person of the Year in 2000 after the Supreme Court awarded him the presidency.
“He is not the same man,” Kelly said. “He’s a much more resolute man. He is personally as charming as ever but I think the kind of face he’s shown to the American public is one of much, much greater determination.”
Gregoire is a CROOK! Always has been … always will be! The Dem’s have taken the fact that they can not accept a close loss, twice, and get on with their lives. They have stirred up so much anger in this state ACLU political views that they force on people.
Let’s see a re-vote!!! King county should pay for it too! Gregoire, I thought that we were going to count every vote… Why did you not look into the military situation?? Oh’ ok your up 130 votes now… you can stop… Shhhhheeesshhhh, What a crook!! What do you mean that there are 3,000 more ballots than voters in King county… What’s going on here??? Fraud?