For all the drama of yesterday’s manhunt, in the end, suspected cop-killer Maurice Clemmons was shot and killed by a lone police officer on routine patrol in South Seattle.
Assistant Chief Jim Pugel said a Seattle police officer “was patrolling this area when he came across an unoccupied stolen vehicle. The officer radioed the location and license plate, and he then detected some movement behind him and got out of his car.” Then the officer “recognized the person who was approaching him as looking like … the possible suspect of the tragic homicide in Lakewood.” The officer then asked man to show hands his, but, Pugel said, “the person would not show his hands and began to run away… and would not stop.”
“The officer fired several rounds,” Pugel continued. “All indications are that he is deceased.”
Pugel said a gun recovered from the suspect had the “identical serial number” to the one taken from one of the murdered officers.
Assuming all that information is correct, it looks like the police got their man, which should be a huge relief to the family, friends and comrades of the fallen Lakewood officers… as well as anybody who even vaguely matched Clemmons’ description. I don’t know standard police procedures, and I certainly don’t mean to question the officer’s actions, but I wonder if under normal circumstances the officer would have been so quick to shoot just any suspect fleeing from the scene of a stolen car?
A near full moon makes identifying prey much easier during night hunts.
Does this officer get the reward money?
Under “normal” circumstances there would already be a leader of the black community stating the officers actions were unwarranted and demanding an investigation based on excessive force. From accounts, it appears the cop shot him in the back. I told friends yesterday I would hate to be a black man matching Clemmons description and I would be staying indoors until he was caught because there is a good chance you would get shot. Well that is exactly what happened.
Clemmons was a rabid dog that needed putting down. I am glad it ended this way, saves the Pierce Co. tax payers a lot of money on the trial and 10 years of appealing the death sentence.
I don’t know why but my bullshit detector is finding this very high on the bullshit ratio.
Just happened to have one of the officer’s stolen weapon? Funny, no indication that the shooter rearmed in the donut shop before this “magical” gun appeared. Wounded in the guts and still taking a cop’s gun?
Beat cop just casually shoots and kills someone who is walking away from him. Just happens to be the man the cops are saying is the killer.
There are too many definites in this story.
Goldy –
I assume the suspect is instantly recognizable. Especially to those trained to look for people.
getting shot was too good for the POS….
Listen to you guys!…………..wow
@3 It was previously reported that Clemmons took a gun from the dead officers; and he wasn’t “walking away,” he was running — circling the stolen car to get behind the officer, one may surmise, to get a shot at him.
Hope these folks rot in jail for the rest of their lives.
Police spokesman Ed Troyer told the media that 4 people have been arrested so far for helping Clemmons elude police and authorities expect to have “6 or 7 in custody” shortly, KIRO 7 News reported.
To play the devils advocate: How can you state you felt your life was in danger/threatened when the guy is running away? Regardless, Clemmons demonstrated quite effectively how good of shot he was, he was a cop killer. We can do all the arm chair quarterbacking we want but as far as I am concerned the beat cop should get a medal.
@10 “To play the devils advocate: How can you state you felt your life was in danger/threatened when the guy is running away?”
How obtuse can you be? News reports say a lone cop came upon a stolen vehicle with the engine running and door open, detected movement behind him, recognized Clemmons, and ordered him to stop and show his hands. Clemmons had a gun and was trying to get behind the cop. It’s pretty obvious what he intended to do. That cop is lucky to still be alive.
Clemmons was recognized as a fleeing murderer when the officer confronted him and he ran. So he wasn’t a fleeing car thief at that point; he was a fleeing armed and violent murdered. Naturally the officer would use force to stop him from fleeing.
Clemmons’ sister reportedly drove him from Parkland to Seattle. That was not only criminal, but incredibly stupid. What would have happened to her, if she got pulled over and Clemmons shot it out with the police? Damn good chance she’d catch some lead in the crossfire.
From the NYT:
Clemmons was trying to ambush a cop using a stolen car as bait.
This all seems legit so far. Now if it turns out that the officer shot him 5 or 6 times in the bak then I would start asking questions, especially since Clemmons had a serious gut wound to begin with.
What is important, and what we should all be thankful for is Huckabee passing the buck. And O’Really decreeing the sin be absolved.
This whole nonsense needs to stop. While the officers would not have been shot on Sunday if Clemmons hadn’t been paroled or bailed out, they definitely would not have been shot on Sunday if Clemmons had made different decisions and choices in his life.
Now, five people are dead and many of his family and friends will go to jail.
Lessis moronic@3 spews
Typical leftist spin..
He wasn’t “walking away” asshole…he was running.
He was considered armed and dangerous.
This is the Leftist Lunacy cop-hating BS that prevails here at HA.
Lunatic.
Here is where the focus needs to be–From today’s Seattle Times:
2 BailBond firms turned Clemmons down for the $190,000 Bond until he finally found one greedy enough to do it.
The question for me is:
Had the Judges listened to the Prosecutor, Clemmons would have been required to post $300,000.
Could he have done it??
Seems a bit unlikely….but let’s take a look-see. Oh, the Judges are unavailable.
How convenient!
My uncle used to complain about cops not being able to shoot fleeing suspects. In his words,
“In my day when a cop says “halt”, you’ve got about two steps to stop and raise your hands high in the air. If you haven’t stopped by the third step, then your fourth step would be your last one.”
I agree that there is some practical wisdom in this approach. While it is true that most offenses don’t deserve the death penalty to be dispensed by cops on the street without the benefit of trial, on the other hand it’s a bit ridiculous to expect our police officers to be willing and able to outrun and physically catch every fleeing suspect? Shouldn’t the command “Halt! Police!” mean something?
So I’ll admit to having competing emotions when it comes to the issue of shooting a fleeing suspect, which I haven’t resolved yet.
But in this particular case, because you were dealing with a man who specifically targeted police officers, I’m not going to second-guess the police officer even if he did shoot him in the back. What was he supposed to do, run after the guy until he turned a corner or ran behind some bushes, where he could turn around and fire at the officer without the officer having an opportunity to see him draw his gun?
Cynical @ 19: The only purpose of the bail bonds was to guarantee his attendence at trial. Remember, he hadn’t been convicted of the crimes yet. And prosecutors always ask for higher bail than they expect to be granted, and defense attorneys always ask for lower bail than they expect the judge to set. The judge sets the bail based upon what is common for the charges and the facts which are before him.
Moreover, when the judges in Pierce County set bail, they also knew that Arkansas had a fugitive “no bail” warrant on him. There was no reason for them to expect that he would be freed, even if he came up with the Washington bail.
It looks like the fault rests primarily with the Arkansas authorities, who dropped their “no bail” fugitive warrant request, because they didn’t want to spend the money to extradite him. They wanted the Washington taxpayers and citizens to bear the burden of trying and incarcerating him, or to bear the risk if he were released.
@15
Police are trained to fire at “center of mass” and to fire until there is not longer a threat. Or something like that.
I used to hunt and when I shot a deer it, pretty much, fell straight over dead. But, I was using a scoped rifle, with time to aim a shot, in daylight and a bullet that packed around 2,000 FP of pressure behind it.
A bullet from a 9mm handgun has about 350 FP pressure behind it.
So… it’s the middle of the night, your surprised by someone that’s trying to kill you, you pull your not very easy to use, not very powerful handgun and you fire in the dark, at a moving target. You’re going to need to pull that trigger more than once.
The only “good” news at the moment is that the way this has ended means that we’ll be spared a continuing flood of speculation, bloviating, after-the-fact armchair quarterbacking and just plain bullshit from everyone, including yours truly.
I assume under normal circumstances he wouldn’t shoot. But given the circumstances it seems appropriate. Armed and dangerous suspect who refuses to comply with police instructions? I’d shoot rather than pursue.
What I find more baffling is the decision to block off entire neighborhoods over the course of Sunday evening at a time when he was named a “person of interest”.
Justice served. Glad this piece of shit suffered from his original gut shot before being taken out this A.M. Now time to round up all the motherfuckers that aided and helped him out. Lock em all up!
It sounds like the cop recognized Clemmons, made a quick decision, and it turns out he was right. I tend towards the anti-cop end of the spectrum, but kudos where kudos are due. I would not have wanted to be the guy to make that split-second decision.
Totally OT, but
http://www.oregonlive.com/poli.....h_tax.html
Ha ha ha ha ha. Another reason I suppose, that Tim Eyman doesn’t like the idea of a state income tax!
any lawyers out there:
are cops allowed to shoot to kill a feeing person who is suspected to be a felon if he is not putting them in danger?
rhp spews:
Good points…up to a point.
I think Washington Judges & Prosecutors were wrong to assume. It was in hindsight a huge mistake. They will have a hard time selling the Public on this rhp….especially when they lowered the Bail Prosecutors requested considering all the pending charges.
It’s a nightmare.
No one can feel good about this.
Hopefully needed changes will come from this and a much higher awareness for Judges, Prosecutors & Governors.
From what I have read, the original conviction and sentencing of Clemmons for 108 years for crimes he committed at 16 years old seems a bit steep…even to a hardass like me.
No one was ever hurt..
Lowering the sentence from 108 to 47 years does not seem too off base…IF his prison record and rehabilitation was well-documented.
It did open the door for Parole.
That’s where the rubber meets the road.
But after Parole in 2001, he went back to jail for a violation until 2004.
It’s these past 5 years that are pretty disconcerting….especially the release on 11/23.
I hope his relatives who allegedly aided and abetted this nutcase get a fair trial though.
Who knows why they did what they did to help him on the run…but they deserve the right to explain it to a jury without a rush to judgment.
The whole story will be a made-for-TV Movie someday soon. Follow the $$ on that one.
rhp–
Watching some brief bios on the officers killed, their family members and comments about their character was almost to much to watch. Here these officers put their lives on the line to serve and protect….but they also have families who much process and live with this.
Unbearable.
Cynical,
Puddy wanted the leftists anti-police types like zdp189 to read the Clemmons-Arkansas case facts. Yet they go to Daily Kooks or The Puke Morons to get their daily “news” fix instead of looking up the data themselves. It’s all there as you stated above.
Clemmons time was reduced to 47 years after an Arkansas judge and Parole Board agreed and THEN they sent the case to Huckabee. Yet these fools postulate Huckabee acted on his own for Clemmons. Yes in this case Huckabee let this fool loose based on what he was told. Regarding the reincarceration after parole, Arkansas prosecutors didn’t file the new charges in time so he walked as charges had to be dropped. Then in 2009 under a different Arkansas administration the NO BAIL charge was revoked, yet they still blame it on Huckabee.
This is so much different from the Willie Horton case. Butt, did you notice the fools like Don Joe and checksaid try to make the equation? This is why Puddy labels them liberal retards. They don’t process facts and then when the facts are right there for their eyes they skip over them for political gamesmanship!
We all should be making contributions to the PBF in the names of those officers. Mrs Puddy and Puddy will be doing that. What say you libtardos?
clearly the judge and the prosecutor in our own state screwed up.
with a prior record like this guy’s they should have set bail way higher.
with knowledge the real system if 10% down payment with E-Z credit, they shoul dhave set teh bail much higher.
Is there not a point when we do not have to let someone out on bail?
not saying we pretermine his child rape charge…we simply need to take into account his prior crimes, mental state, attacks on cops, etc.
what IS the law on bail? are they allowed or required to take into account prior crimes when deciding risk of flight or risk to community? what is bail supposed to be based on?
we can all chatter all day long but seriously, we gotta look at the law here. sorry i don’t know it or i would say.
@30
I had to stop reading about the families. I’m going to stop by a Forza later today to donate some cash.
@30, 32
With this guys priors and his being a complete nut-job he should have been remanded to the violent offenders ward at Western State.
The Huckster screwed the pooch, but that was a longtime ago and a long ways away. We need to be focused on the here and the now. WFT is going on in the Pierce County Jail and prosecutors office? I still haven’t seen anything from them that justifies letting this guy out?
@28
The cop was in the middle of an ambush. His ambusher was pulling something from his jacket while ducking for cover behind a car. That cop’s lucky to be alive.
Puddy @ 31: I specifically commented that I wasn’t going to criticize Huckabee for the decision to commute the sentence. Clemency and pardon decisions are among the hardest decisions for governors or presidents to make, and their ability to foretell the future is, of course, limited.
I did also add that I think this kills Huckabee’s presidential prospects. Not because of anything the Democrats would say. Huckabee’s opponants for the Presidential nomination will be more than happy to campaign on this issue, saying he’s soft on criminals and lacks the judgement a president would need. Therefore, I doubt he would ever get the nomination.
The Democrats won’t need to bring up the issue at all.
@ # 36, it should read “Huckabee’s opponants for the Republican nomination…”
I’ll be in mourning for the next 30 seconds…
It seems that Clemmons stole a car about 12:35 a.m. The son of the owner of the car heard a car engine revving, and looked out the window to see it being driven away. He called 911 to report the car being stolen.
According to his statements to the papers, “… sometimes the car dies. It’s not a very reliable car. We only use it for short trips.”
About 2:35 a.m. a patrol officer sees the car on the side of the road, engine running and the hood up. He calls in the tag and finds out the car is stolen. While he is filling out a report he notices Clemons behind him, walking toward the driver’s side of the patrol car.
So it seems that perhaps Clemon’s next-to-last mistake was choosing the wrong car to steal.
# 1: The officer wouldn’t be eligible for the reward money. It comes with the job.
The guy who called in his father’s car being stolen, however, might arguably be eligible. That one’s kind of a tough call – his stolen vehicle report resulted in the encounter with Clemons, even though his call wasn’t specifically directed at Clemens. If he had said “A guy who looks just like Clemens just stole my Dad’s car!”, his claim might be greater.
@29 “The whole story will be a made-for-TV Movie someday soon.”
Ugh. Unfortunately, you’re absolutely right.
Another piece of “entertainment” I’ll make sure to miss.
@35.
thanks, but do you have an answer for what I asked, which wasn’t about the facts here, it was this:
is it our law that cops allowed to shoot to kill a fleeing person suspected to be a felon if he is not putting them in danger?
@42, A felon known to be psycho, who just killed four police officers.
@42
I’m not sure.
But, it sounds to me like Clemons wasn’t fleeing. It sounds to me like he was ducking for cover after being spotted durring an ambush he planned.
31. Puddybud Remembers Progressives Forget spews:
Atheist Progressives need their “pacifier” which is the Daily Kos and anything Algore utters….even if it’s based on phoney science!
33. Michael spews:
Good idea…we will too.
i wonder if lebowski still thinks it was a gangland hit.
Is it legal to shot a POS in the back who is fleeing to possibly gain an advantage for either firing a shot or excaping and killing again:
RCW 9 16.050 and RCW 9A.16.020 applies to any citizen.
Too bad this animal didn’t suffer for a few more days before he was put down! Why isn’t this being called a hate crime? I’ll tell you why…because he’s black.
@47
Nope, I dont. I was just guessing at the time – AS WAS EVERYONE ELSE.
Gunfight At The OK Corral
Here’s the sequence of events, according to updated accounts in the fishwrapper. The officer sees a car with the hood up and engine running. He runs the tag and learns it was stolen about two hours earlier. He notices movement behind him. He turns and recognizes Clemmons, who is approaching the driver’s side of the patrol car from behind. The officer gets out of his patrol vehicle, faces Clemmons, and orders him to stop. Clemmons runs counterclockwise around the patrol car. When the officer draws his gun, Clemmons reaches for his waistband. The officer fires. That’s about as Wyatt Earp as you can get — the guy was drawing on the cop.
The fishwrapper summarizes state law as follows: “According to state law, a police officer is justified in using deadly force when it is necessary ‘to arrest or apprehend a person who the officer reasonably believes has committed, has attempted to commit, is committing, or is attempting to commit a felony.’ In making that decision, the officer must have probable cause to believe the suspect, if not apprehended, poses a threat of serious physical harm to the officer, or to others. That might include displaying a weapon, or knowledge the person has committed or threatened violence. An officer may use deadly force to prevent escape, ‘where, if feasible, some warning is given.'”
From news accounts so far, it sounds to me like all of those elements were present, and it’s a slam-dunk that the officer would have been justified in shooting him, even if Clemmons hadn’t been reaching for a gun when he was shot.
Three men arrested for helping Clemmons elude police have been charged with first-degree rendering criminal assistance, with bail set at amounts ranging from $500,000 to $2 million.
@22. Michael:
Most agencies including SPD use the .40 S&W cal. round which is way more powerful than the old 9mm. Just FYI.
I just saw where one of the POS’s that helped Clemmons elude police was a CONVICTED DOUBLE MURDERER who was parolled. Why wasnt this subhuman executed?
ALL people convicted of murder, child rape, or child molestation should get the death penalty. PERIOD.
Oh, and if you TRY to kill someone, but arent good enough to pull it off? Mandatory life in prison with no parole for attempted murder.
its time to get serious about this shit.
@52
http://www.federalpremium.com/.....spx?id=111
9MM = 350FP
.40 = 400FP
@50
Thanks Rog.
@53
We need to look at facts and make calm rational decisions.
I do agree that none of the people involved in this should have been walking the streets.
I say that the officer who killed this cop-killer should be given a medal and a parade. He is a true hero.
I will say this about Mike Huckabee. I still like him personially. I supported his 2008 bid for President. However, I will not support him again. His chances for getting the Republican Nomination now are somewhere between slim and none. If he gets the nomination I will probially vote for a third party or more lickly I will write in a name. I am sorry Governor I hope your show on Fox news is still a success.
[Deleted — see HA Comment Policy]
The officer that shot the murderer was being snuck up on from the rear. He was most likely minutes away from being killed himself. Thank God this patrollman shot the garbage and spared us all an expensive whining session (trial) where we got to hear how “he was turning his life around”, in addition to protecting and serving the community at large.
Blacks make up only 8% of Seattle but committed at least 50% of the murders there in 2008.
I am willing to bet anyone $100 (this is a serious offer) that the blacks are responsible for committing at least 80% of the murders in the Seattle area in 2009.
I would post indisputable proof but the politically-correct dipshit who runs this libtard site censors it.
Well, I am glad that he got what he deserves. I don’t care how the Officer did it the fact is he was doing his job and that POS was stalking him so he could get the Officers car to get away. And I really don’t care what all those bleeding hearts in Seattle say. Good Job Officer Kelly.
@50
hey thanks for regurgitating what I read in the paper.
However when you say this:
“When the officer draws his gun, Clemmons reaches for his waistband. The officer fires. That’s about as Wyatt Earp as you can get — the guy was drawing on the cop.”
you are wrong. The facts as stated seem to show, or perhaps indicate the possibility that, the guy was running; and the facts as stated clearly show the officer pulled his gun BEFORE Clemmons reaches for his presumed gun in the pocket.”
All this is taking the officer’s wor.d
Since you are a lawyer, why didn’t you just quote the law? Even the fishwraper doesn’t really make it clear if the cops have the right to shoot at a fleeing suspect just because a few days ago the suspect is suspected of shooting others, or does he have to be suspected of being about to shoot the policeman?
It’s pretty funny how nobody can just answer this.
IF the law is “yes the cops can shoot a suspected felon who is not endangering the cop at that moment if there is a reasonable suspicion the guy used violence in the past,” — why not just say so?
Because you love that law. Or because you hate it.
Try to think about the law without getting into the facts. I only asked about the law. There seems to be great reticence to answer the simple question about the pure law.
I donwer if that’s because we’re not too comfortable with it, because obviously, you know, if that IS the law, this time it worked out okay in terms of the fact he really was Clemons…but the next time, um, it might not work out okay for the guy who looked like a violent felon…but wasn’t.
Hey here’s an idea…whynot just have a law that lets the cops shoot anyone anytime at will — we do trust them, dont we?
please @ 63
I encourage you to find a different example to make your case. Whatever your point, it’s lost by arguing about this whole Clemmons incident.
Stories say that Clemmons took one round square in the abdomen yet continued to run for days and was possibly planning an attack. Sure makes the standard issue 9mm look pretty poor. I bet lots of cops will be upgrading to something with a 4 in the caliber.
“if under normal circumstances the officer would have been so quick to shoot just any suspect fleeing from the scene of a stolen car?”
Guess that explains the name of this website.
Yeesh.
Um, dumbass…the Officer gave his account that he noticed the person was stalking/creeping up on his position and he decided it was odd enough to exit the cruiser and confront said dumbfuck. The officer was close enough that he saw the distinctive mole on dumbfuck and recognized him as dumbfuck/deceased clemmons and was instantly able to get the draw on an already wounded suspect that was clemmons while clemmons did his best to not comply with orders from the officer to get down and he refused while making furtive suspect moves to draw a weapon.
Clean shoot. Period. End of lifelong punk and thug. This Piece of shit should have been flushed long before now, but some stupid ass liberal judge let him out (though he faced his third strike of felony assault on a police officer and child rape of a 12 yr old) on bail nonetheless, only to have him kill 4 law enforcement officers. The Judge should be tried as an accessory to murder. 4 counts
I applaud Clemmons…too bad he only took out 4 cops. Fuck the police, that’s what they get, corrupt faggots.
I applaud Clemmons…too bad he only took out 4 cops. Fuck the police, that’s what they get, corrupt faggots.
@68 and 69….go fuck yourself you limp dicked fag.