Matthew Yglesias has a great post up about Rudy Giuliani and his truly alarming foreign policy strategy. Part of the modern illusion about the Republican Party is that it was a party of moral conservatives and free-market libertarians. But neither of those groups have had any real sway. The party has been run by people with very authoritarian views who only have passing commonality with the other two groups. Compared to the average church-going Republican in a place like Tennessee or Nebraska, Rudy Guiliani is extremely liberal. And compared to the average libertarian, Giuliani is a wannabe-dictator who has absolutely no love for the 2nd Amendment or any other civil liberty.
The success of Rudy Giuliani’s candidacy in the polls is revealing the long-hidden truth about what the “base” of the Republican Party really consists of – people who believe that the long-standing American values (moral strength and a focus on liberty) that made us the envy of the world are now a significant weakness as we deal with the rest of the world. The fakeness of the Republican Party’s moralizing and rhetoric about liberty has long been known to people paying close attention, but it’s now as obvious to the average observer as it could possibly be. And if Giuliani actually becomes the nominee, god help us if Americans can’t figure out how wrong he is when it comes to the role America needs to play in the world.
Regarding Rove’s resignation, John Edwards had this to say: “Goodbye and good riddance!”
I second that emotion.
The core value of conservatism is dishonesty:
I could go on an on about it, but I couldn’t have said it better than Dick Cheney.
Enjoy: http://thenewshole.msnbc.msn.c.....18212.aspx
It’s more war, and endless war, and more war with more nations, until finally an exhausted, disgusted, and mightily pissed-off world will unite against us and crush us.
That’s Rudy’s vision for America. Who’s signing up?
Betcha all the rightie hypocrites who savaged Clinton over Monica won’t have a thing to say about how often the sheets would have to be changed in the Lincoln Bedroom with Rompin’ Rudy around.
More “good news” of the escalation (from http://www.juancole.com):
That’s what happens when you use air power to fight an urban insurgency.
Hey, 200 dead and 300 wounded as presumably Sunni insurgents (remember we’re training and arming THEM now–try to keep track) detonate bombs in the North of Iraq near Kirkuk. Juan Cole expects a much hotter conflict soon in the North as the Kurds try to keep Kirkuk’s oil for themselves and the soon-to-be-without-oil Sunnis fight them for it.
Oh, and TEN US soldiers died in 2 days. That would be a record-smashing 150 US dead in a month if it keeps up.
It’s a good thing that the surge is working; imagine how bad things would be if Dear Leader were not so Victorious In Iraq!
So…possibly back on topic…
Much of the current illusion about the monolithic nature of the Republican party is due to the leadership’s extraordinary ability to get them to march in lockstep for nearly 15 years now. They have spent years painting themselves as the defenders of liberty and (contradictory) guardians of the country’s morals and we (collectively, including or perhaps especially the media) have bought the story hook, line and sinker.
Now that it’s all falling apart, the party is dividing like cockroaches when the light goes on.
There has always been a strong paternalistic / authoritarian bent to the Republican worldview dating back at least to Nixon (the beginning of my political awareness). Giuliani’s foreign policy positions are not far out of line with that bent. The main difference is that most R leaders before the mid-90s were able to temper that authoritarian tendency with practical realism, probably because of the looming threat of the USSR. When you have competition, you’re willing to compromise your principles in order to win over possible dominoes. The demise of the Soviet Union has allowed this idiotic idealism in foreign policy to come to the fore, under the assumption that there are no consequences any more.
Giuliani is enjoying success because “we” are afraid and he has shown “leadership” in time of crisis and because the other candidates are all over the political map (or at least the right side of the map)…and are generally unattractive to the R base.
I’ve just begun the actual Foreign Affairs article (found here) and, since I hold down an actual job, will read-a-little and post more later.
-OneMan
I think I’m on topic. Anyone who think that Rudy’s policies won’t lead us to the same bankrupted country, overstretched military, diminished moral standing (among nations), deceitful executive officials, Congressional stonewalling, and more years in a fucking Iraqi bloodbath insisting everything is just fine, raise their hand!
Bush’s policies got us here; Rudy would just ease on down that same road…
@7 and @8
You guys are both on topic, and I appreciate your great comments.
OneMan, I work at a dot-com, so I have my slow weeks and my not-so-slow weeks. I’m sure you can guess which one this is. :)
You should read the really compelling article in this month’s Harper’s entitled, “A Fate Worse Than Bush” by Kevin Baker. It outlines the man that Giuliani is (or pretends to be) and why he more dangerous than Bush. Unfortunately you can’t read it online for free but it is great reading.
Baker outlines what Giuliani said he did as mayor and then, point by point, explains how it really wasn’t Giuliani’s doing at all. He makes the case that Giuliani needs to overcome, as Clinton did with labor, the religious right and get the Republicans to see he is their only real hope for strength and security. (Giuliani and the Clintons worked, not together but at the same time, on McGovern’s campaign. There’s a fun fact to know.)
Remember that Rudy is a product of and was elected by New York City–not exactly an R bastion. It may be a little dicey to attribute anything about him to the Republican Party in general. I will be surprised if he is nominated. If he is, it will be mainly due to the weakness of the field and/or party hacks who just want to win and decide that Rudy is the best hope.
@8: prolly the “on topic” comment was unwarranted. Can’t we all just get along?
-OM
OneMan,
When you’re finished with Rudy’s FA article, here’s a take from D over at Lawyers, Guns and Money: http://lefarkins.blogspot.com/.....on-us.html
I haven’t read Rudy yet, so I won’t comment further on this topic until I have.
@11
Remember that Rudy is a product of and was elected by New York City–not exactly an R bastion.
New York is its own strange beast when it comes to the two parties. They’ve had Republican mayors for quite a long time now (well, until Bloomberg finally bolted recently). One thing that I’ve been fond of saying for a while is that, on a national level, the Republican Party has tended to be most geared towards helping the Republicans on Wall Street more than any other faction. But to most of the country, those people are really liberals. Giuliani is definitely one of them, and today, much of their focus is on the Middle East.
I think New York voters tended to be OK with Giuliani’s authoritarian streak because at the time he was elected, crime was a pretty major concern. After he was elected, crime rates fell fairly dramatically, and Giuliani certainly took credit for it, even though it had nothing to do with anything he actually did. Crime rates fell everywhere across the country. Regardless, it gave him a lot of credibility at the time.
Today, New Yorkers look back at Giuliani’s leadership and aren’t really sure why the hell he’s so popular outside of New York. And longtime principled conservatives are looking at him and thinking “this guy is crazy”.
It may be a little dicey to attribute anything about him to the Republican Party in general. I will be surprised if he is nominated.
I think his popularity certainly says a lot. It’s a long way to next spring, so no one’s really sure yet. But if he doesn’t win it, I think it’s a sign that the Republicans are actually going back to being a party that is rooted in actual conservative principles.
@#7
Good post.
Hmm… Stuff to think about. I’m just starting the FA article.
Should I be frightened by this?
“A realistic peace is not a peace to be achieved by embracing the “realist” school of foreign policy thought. That doctrine defines America’s interests too narrowly and avoids attempts to reform the international system according to our values.”
“we must understand that our enemies are emboldened by signs of weakness. Radical Islamic terrorists attacked the World Trade Center in 1993, the Khobar Towers facility in Saudi Arabia in 1996, our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, and the U.S.S. Cole in 2000.”
Didn’t we hit back on these? The WTC folks were rounded up and jailed.
“Many historians today believe that by about 1972 we and our South Vietnamese partners had succeeded in defeating the Vietcong insurgency and in setting South Vietnam on a path to political self-sufficiency. But America then withdrew its support, allowing the communist North to conquer the South.”
Straw man? Who are the, “Many”?
@18: Rudy is simply repeating a common wingnut revisionist take on history–our own version of the ‘stab in the back’ theory. It also employs cheap argument from authority (“many historians”, yadda, yadda). Whomever makes this false claim then (just about always) goes on to blame the ‘democratic Congress’ of ’74 for “cutting the funding” to the corrupt South Vietnamese regime.
In summary: It is not a straw man. It is simply a historical lie. The north’s victory did not happen that way or for that reason.
Let me see if I can sum up what I’ve read:
1) “realist” diplomacy is bad because it assumes that we can’t change the behavior of the government we’re engaging with.
2) We’re all the “9/11 Generation”! Whoopie!
3) We have to stay in Afghanistan and Iraq because otherwise “they” will think we’re weak
— 3a) The Clinton administration was inconsistent in their response to terrorism and look where that got us! Forget that the R-dominated congress didn’t even believe there WAS a terrorist threat.
4) MORE ARMY GUYZ! AND AIRCRAFT CARRIERS! AND SUBMARINES!
5) Missile Defence. Because, um, MAD didn’t work for 50 years.
6) We will engage them in the Blogosphere, and on the Radio, anywhere somebody talks bad about us.
7) Down with the UN! Nato is to be the new UN!
8) Prepare for Bay of Pigs II
9) I have no idea what to do about Palestine! I’ll just spew some sort of “good governance” bull and move on.
10) The world is just like New York. No, really!
11) George Bush put us on the right track. All we need now is some minor course corrections.
While he actually made a couple of points I could agree with, so much of his rhetoric is the usual BS meant to appeal to the close-our-borders paranoids in the R party that it is pretty much unusable as a starting point for engaging what he thinks US policy really should be.
Points 1, 4, 5 and 11 frankly scare me.
-OneMan
Personally, I don’t hold any faith in Straw Polls, it’s merely a matter of who can buy the votes or pay peoples’ $35 ticket, or supply them a bus ride to a party. I think Giuliani didn’t bother because he knew the farm folks wouldn’t be too receptive to the drag queen image in the first place. The other day in the PI article:
Poll propels Romney, pushes Thompson out
Giuliani, McCain skip Iowa event; Huckabee gets 2nd
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.....aign13.htm l
“Eight years ago, about 23,600 people voted in the straw poll. On Saturday, only about 14,300 did. Romney attributed the turnout to heat and the expectation that he would be a runaway victor.
“I got a higher percentage even than the president got eight years ago,” Romney said. “It was a warm day, and actually, it was difficult turning people out.”
I thought this was interesting. My people, both sides of the family tree, are from Iowa where I think you find a lot of Conservatives, plenty of less educated folks. While Mitt was trying blame the heat, I would bet it’s more likely that a LOT of their base there was afflicted by “heat” of a different kind. Disgust & embarrassment at the corruption of the Republican Party, in general. Every time they pick up a newspaper there’s some Repub being hauled off to jail or investigated. To me, it most likely wasn’t the thermometer readings that reflected the size of the crowd. I truly hope that the Dems don’t become so overconfident that they blow this opportunity to take our Country back. But I bet there will be a lot of Conservatives that just stay home, not voting at all.
@20
Yeah, that sounds about like I read it too.
Rather long on ideas and short on application.
It’s been obvious that conservatives hate the Second Amendment since the advent of Nixon almost 40 years ago. They don’t have much use for the Fifth or Fourteenth, either. Or any of ’em, for that matter. They only thing in the Constitution they actually like is the part that says they can have guns no matter how crazy they are.
@20 OM,
Thanks for the summary. Wasn’t sure I had the stomach to wade into the jumble! So I will just take yours & #22, Michael’s words for it.
@18 Since Giuliana missed his chance to set foot in South Vietnam, he can take it from a rabbit who was there: The Vietcong insurgency was defeated long before 1972. In fact, it was wiped out in the 1968 Tet offensive. For several years preceding the U.S. withdrawal in 1972, we fought North Vietnamese Army regulars.
And, of course, the NVA didn’t leave in 1972.
The only commodity that the contemporary GOP has to peddle is fear. Fear binds the cowards together. They fear social change, they fear the outside world, they fear those who are different, they fear technological advance. To combat such fear, they want bedroom police, closed borders, an enforced common language, an end to the wild ideas that the internet brings to their children, war with those who look or believe differently, and the list goes on and on. Living in fear is no way to pass a life, but I’d at least request of the quivering paranoid twerps that they not try to force everyone else to share their pathetic worldview.
Where’s Stamn in this thread?
I thought he was a critic of the Republicans.
Guess not. Thought so.
@27
You’re exactly right and hitting upon the grand irony in all of this. That mindset you describe dominates the Middle East, which is why there’s been so much terrorism in that region in the first place.
Great comment thread here. I feel like buying everyone a round of beer…
Lee,
You got it. Fundamentalists of all stripes (Christian, Muslim, Jew) share remarkable similarities while hating each other. Fear of change and the outside is at the top of the list for all of them. Now, about that round of beer . . . Man, I wish those tech guys would figure out how to email an ale.
First let me say that ANY republican is better than ANY marxist democrat, including and especially The Smartest Woman In The World.
That said, Rudy is certainly no conservative. Neither is McCain. GOP gotta get their shit together and find a real conservative to run since most Murkan people (except for the kook left fringe) are basically conservative.
If we do, TSWITW will get her head handed to her. As the most divisive figure in Murkan politics today, she’ll only win NY and CA in a general. That’s why I think we need a guy like Newt to run. He’d mop the fucking floor with her and put her in her place.
But there’s no real conservative out there yet. As Rove said today on Limbaugh’s show, the next election is gonna be ugly…
@30 I believe that psychosis is called “xenophobia.”
@31 Pay your fucking gambling debt.
@31 MTR — so what’s your theory based on that Washington is going red in the next cycle?
@33
@31 MTR — so what’s your theory based on that Washington is going red in the next cycle?
You’ll have to consult with his proctologist.
@31
If there’s anything I agree with in your idiotic screed, it’s that Newt would probably do better in the general election than most of the others vying for the nomination. Although if you think any Republican has a chance in ’08, you’re nuts. It might make the 1964 election look like a close one.
Get some help, dude. They’ve done wonderful things with psychiatry these days…
33 – Uh… let’s see…. we elected a conservative Republican governor. The fucking criminals in King County manufactured ballots to put Mrs. Gregoire in office, but she SAS wasn’t “elected”.
So my “theory” is to stop the criminals in KCE from doing it again. Their mail scheme is a great way for them to do it again. We’ll see how that goes…
@30 I take offense at MY fundies being included with the Muslims and the Christians. We have lots of faults but there is simply no history of our people having an equivalent to the scimitar or the long sword.
Conservative, talmudic Jews certainly do not now nor ever have had an agenda of hate toward others. Even in Israel, the cheredi mostly want to be left alone, a number are actually pro Arab and opposed to the very existence of any Jewish state.
Confusing the settler movement with conservatives is kind of like confusing GW Bush with the guys at your local Am. Legion. The settlers are largely conservative, but not all settlers are conservative at all. Indeed most of Israel is well to the left of the US and more secular to boot.
It is all to common for Xtians to project their own history of religious bigotry on others. Other than the Muslims and the Xtians, religious warfare is pretty much a modern invention and I would suggest it grows out the largely Christian world culture. I tis axctually difficult to imagine a Buddhist or Taoist or even a follwer of Shinto fighting a war in the name of their deities. Even the WWII Japanese fought for their tribe/emperor/people not for the assorted Deities of Shinto or the minor deities inhabitting the Buddhist world.
SeattleJew
C’mon… as Rove said… TSWITW is “fatally flawed”. She’s the most divisive political figure Murka has ever seen. NOBODY is on the fence with her. We know her well and have clear position fer or agin her. There’s no fucking point in her doing a “campaign”. People already know how they’d vote on her. And she loses. Loses big… And when she (or any other hate filled marxist) loses, Murka wins.
@35
33 – Uh… let’s see…. we elected a conservative Republican governor. The fucking criminals in King County manufactured ballots to put Mrs. Gregoire in office, but she SAS wasn’t “elected”.
So my “theory” is to stop the criminals in KCE from doing it again. Their mail scheme is a great way for them to do it again. We’ll see how that goes…
I think you need to go back and read his question again. That’s not even close to what he was asking.
Lee and the core.
I think Lee is poitng t a great mystery. is there a “core” set of principles oin either US party or are they more like sports teams … politicans and athletes both for hire.
The publican party’s unholy coalition of rich folks, “moral” conservatives, and warrior made no sense any more than Roosevelt’s coalition of rich folks, labor, and southern racists.
I get tired of reading here about the moral superiority of the Demoes. That is dog shit.
Hey Jew – Can you give me an example of a “religious war” that has occurred in the past 100 years or so? (Not counting the current GWOT?)
Think real hard before you post dumshit…
@37
NOBODY is on the fence with her.
I am.
And no Republican can beat her (or Obama or Edwards, for that matter). 2008 is going to be a bloodbath.
@36
Conservative, talmudic Jews certainly do not now nor ever have had an agenda of hate toward others. Even in Israel, the cheredi mostly want to be left alone, a number are actually pro Arab and opposed to the very existence of any Jewish state.
Sorry, you’re absolutely blind. Even my Israeli relatives don’t believe this. The amount of hate for Palestinians among certain sectors of the Israeli (and Israeli-American) populace is just as rabid and just as inexcusable as hate from Muslims and Christians over the years.
SJ @ 36
For the most part, I agree with your post. My comment was based primarily on the rhetoric and rants that I hear from the fundamentalists of the three religions I identified. None of them make a lick of sense. If I were to be bold, I might say that inadequate numbers are what have deterred any sort of Jewish scimitar or long sword adventures. I completely agree with you, however, that Israel is to our left and more secular. Probably more enlightened and rational, to boot. What I’m talking about are minorities within religions. I fear that those minorities within the Christian and Islamic religions threaten to overcome the saner majority. I wouldn’t say that about Judaism.
Lee@14: Where did you get your New York “information” on Rudy?
I have friends who live in NYC since the middle 60s and many NYers like him.
BTW I and my friends DO NOT agree on politics!
You must have gotten your info from Rudy!:An Investigative Biography of Rudolph Giuliani by Wayne Barrett or the TMPCafe?
36 In WWW2 the Japanese fought for their Emperor, but that was connected with the acceptance of his divinity. One of the surrender terms imposed by the Allies required Hirohito to inform his people that he was not a God. I can think of a few “leaders” in the world today who ought to be forced to do the same thing.
27 “The only commodity that the contemporary GOP has to peddle is fear.”
Wrong. They’ve gone far beyond that, to peddling fantasy, avarice, sanctioned hypocrisy and most of all, blood lust. They’ve not only defecated on the Constitution, they’ve made a mockery of the Ten Commandments they claim we should all observe. This is the worst of human nature, far more debauched than the worst pornographers, slave merchants and whoremongers. We can only hope that the slavish, gutless drones in the mass media are exaggerating the numbers of their knuckle-dragging followers. The only thing more depraved than fascism is cannibalism, and that may yet rear its ugly head.
Mark at 40:
Ireland. Catholics. Protestants.
“Nuff said”.
Um… MTR just out of curiosity how many illegal votes are you alleging took place in ’04?
Please keep in mind that Patty Murray is one of the more liberal members of the senate and she won her last 2 races by more than 10%. Maria Cantwell won her last race 56.9% to 39.9%.
Do you really think changing anything in King county would change those kind of results? Because those are the kind of results we’re going to be seeing in both Washington’s in ’08 .
PS. Patty Murray shows the idea that the left needs to move to the center to win in Washington is myth.
Mark:
You bitch about the ballot counting in WA.
Tell you what, you let us recount Florida and you can HAVE WA.
You are such a duplicitous character.
@37: Pink Dick and his buddies sure are talking down Hillary as “can’t possibly win”. What does that tell you? It tells you that they are scared to shit of her because she would mop the floor with any of the fascist scum now pandering to the bigots and crooks that constitute what’s left of the GOP ‘base’.
And really, Newt? Too funny. Nominate him, repukes. Nominate him please.
I disagree with Sen. Clinton on many issues, but the thought of her in the White House just for the revenge on wingnuttia is actually quite appealing.
Absolutely!!!!
And then, we will tax Mark fairly, instead of his evading his REAL tax liability like he does his gambling debts.
SJ @36: “We have lots of faults but there is simply no history of our people having an equivalent to the scimitar or the long sword.”
I recall a story about this guy named Moses who led a bunch of folks from Egypt to Palestine where they slaughtered or otherwise displace those who lived there, and were in constant wars with various ‘philistines’ (read neighbors) for many hundreds of years…mostly because those others did not accept their “ONE true god” or were egged on by their deity (so they claim).
Their descendants, and hundreds of millions of converts, made some changes to this religion over the years, but the central core belief in ONE god, and ONE god alone stayed in place. Adopted by various states in various forms as the “official” religion, they immediately built houses of worship, hired janitors, and raised armies to attack their neighbors in the name of their ONE god.
The direct descendents of those who started all this have returned to Palestine after a prolonged absence. They have pretty much taken up where they left off.
I think I read that in a book somewhere. Gosh. It’s on the tip of my tongue. Give me a bit of time to look it up.
Conservative, talmudic Jews certainly do not now nor ever have had an agenda of hate toward others.
SJ – Check out this blog. This guy put his life on the line for these people and they treated him and his fellow soldiers like dirt.
49 – Florida WAS recounted. Numerous times. By every hate group imaginable including The New York Times. Every fucking time GWB won and by increasing margins.
So shove FLA up your ass dumshit.
With that established, do you really fucking believe that King County ran a clean count? Dumfuckingshit…
Roger. I don’t recall a U.S. withdrawal in 1972. I do remember an escalation.
You’re right, Roger. Vietnamization accounts for the overall increase in troops.
michael 48 – You idiots vote for “No Rocket Scientist” Murray and you have the fucking nerve to call GWB stoopid?
She’s at the top of her class in the “useful idiot” department, but she’s a fucking embarassment to the senate and FUWA.
Coupla favs:
“I’m going to speak for the fish because they can’t speak for themselves.”
“He’s been out in these countries for decades, building schools, building roads, building infrastructure, building day-care facilities, building health-care facilities, and these people are extremely grateful. We haven’t done that.”
Hey Lee, nice find on the original article and comments. That needs to be said.
I’m gonna read the FA piece by Edwards and post my thoughts somewhere.
Unfortunately, this thread has devolved into a pissing contest. Too bad, it was fun while it lasted.
-OneMan
@57
Why are you here? You’ve been asked questions twice and failed to answer both times?
So again:
MTR just out of curiosity how many illegal votes are you alleging took place in ‘04?
Just answer the question. And please try not to swear.
MTR @ 54- So the Florida recount was OK and the Washington recount was criminal? Funny, I remember the crowds of Republican thugs banging on the doors during the Florida recount.
The Washington recount was litigated by the Republicans in a venue of their choosing and the result held.
But you never let that stop you.
And, MTR, did you ever retract the lies you posted a few weeks ago about Senator Murry and the allocation of Homeland Security funds? Remember, when you said is was proof of her lack of influence in the current Congress. It was actually her taking a stand against the pork barrelling of security funds allocated by last year’s Republican majority.
You’re not much on facts.
#49 My Left Foot says:
Tell you what, you let us recount Florida and you can HAVE WA.
Did you miss it? there was a recount. Bush won.
Florida ballots from 2000 presidential election, conducted by consortium of eight news organizations and professional statisticians, indicates George W Bush would have won election even if US Supreme Court allowed statewide manual recount of votes ordered by state Supreme Court; finds, contrary to allegations by partisans of Vice Pres Al Gore, that Supreme Court did not award election to Bush
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/.....20Court%20
#39 SeattleJew says:
Sacrilegious.
When bush ran for president, he made the promise he was a uniter, not a divider. Looking at the polling for bush and the democrats, it looks like he was right.
I’m not being run off by your threats of violence, I’m gone for a family reunion. Everyone play safely and get along until I get back next week.
And for headless lucy biker chick, I know… you hate me, you really hate me.
@53, YLB: Thanks for the link.
@61
I’ve met Murray, she’s smart. Now if you want to talk dim bulb: http://www.mcmorris.house.gov/
@52 Proud To Be An Ass says:
I recall a story about this guy named Moses who led a bunch of folks from Egypt to Palestine where they slaughtered or otherwise displaced those who lived there, and were in constant wars with various ‘philistines’ (read neighbors) for many hundreds of years…mostly because those others did not accept their “ONE true god” or were egged on by their deity (so they claim).
Let me try to help you understand a few facts.
1. “Moses” as described in the Torah may not have existed. No one can be certain whether or not this fellow did or did not exist but the archaelogical data says there was never the sort of invasion led by Joshua that you describe. One fascinating idea is that Moses was one of the Hyksos, a semitic people who ruled Norther Egypt for quite awhile and were driven out,
2. The tales you refer to are not about imposing a deity on anyone, they are about national conquest,l albeit by a people led by and assisted by a Deity. The admonitions in Jewish traditions are about OUR worshiping “false gods.” What you guys do is not our business, though it may be disgusting.
3. Both modern genetics and archaelogy suggest that the Hebrews arose indigenously within the Cannani people, proabably in the hill country now called the West Bank. The Philistines were not indigenous they were part of the sea people and came to the coast as conquerors. You may know the sea people as Carthaginians and Trojans. FWIW, fighting them off would be roughly comparable to the Iraquis evicting the American occupiers.
BTW the term “Palestine” comes from the Latin, hebre Arabic word for Phillistia and was invented after the Jewsih wars t demean the memory of the Jewish state by anming the land after a then extinct people. Until 1948, the word “Palestinian” refered to the Jews of Palestine.
4. The stories you refer to are NOT in our revelation, they are in a collection of myths and poems that Christians somehow have decided are revealed to them. Jews ONLY accept the Torah .. the first 5 books as from the Deity.
Their descendants, and hundreds of millions of converts, made some changes to this religion over the years, but the central core belief in ONE god, and ONE god alone stayed in place. Adopted by various states in various forms as the “official” religion, they immediately built houses of worship, hired janitors, and raised armies to attack their neighbors in the name of their ONE god.
WOW, where did you get all this? You really think we once numbered in the 100s of millions! Cool. Sorry, it is simply not true. At its largest, the Kingdom Of Judah might have been in the 100s of thousands, but little data support even that. As for conquering their neighbors?? Which ones???? Again, even if you buy into the myths of the books of Kings and Prophets and Judges, the early Hebrews claimed, like most other tribal cultures, that there was hunk of land that was theirs. The neighbors were pretty safe, certainly the Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Midianites etc did not seem to fear the threat you describe.
The direct descendents of those who started all this have returned to Palestine after a prolonged absence. They have pretty much taken up where they left off.
Now you have gone from our mythology, to some screwed up version I never heard about to PLO propaganda.
1. while modern genetics say that Palestinians and Jews are closely related, Judaism does accept converts to the people. (Much as indigneous American tribes still do). By the time of the Jewish Wars, Jews had spread around the Mediterranean and
so it is likely that modern Jews are descended from some folks still in Israel at the time of the Jewish Wars and some people from the diaspora, as we call it. I have no idea what you think “direct descent”?
2. FWIW there have been Jews continuously in Israel. In fact until the Jordanian massacres in 48, EAST Jerusalem (now the Arab sector) had been a Jewish sector since the Caliph Umar in the 600s invited the Jews back to Jerusalem after he kicked out the occupying Christians (who, by the by) called THEMselves Palestinians.
In contrast the only continuous arab culture in the area is the Bedouin (who get along well with the Israelis to this day). The modern “Arabs” trace THEIR origin to the conquest of this area by the Caliph Umar and the use of the law of dhimmi to force conversion to Islam. A very large part of the Arab population emigrated to this land in the 1800s and early 1900s because the zionist efforts created jobs.
Finally, while there is a real story and real issue babout Palestinians people’s rights, The Zionists were very rarely religious, many were atheist. Support for creation of Israel came from lefties ans seculars NOT from Torah observant Jews.
I think I read that in a book somewhere. Gosh. It’s on the tip of my tongue. Give me a bit of time to look it up.
go ahead. Just be sure you can tell mythology from facts.
@13: TJ, thanks for the link. Will take a look.
-OM
@40 Mark The Redneck-Goldstein says:
Religous wars in the last century?
I am nit sure why I need to deal only with the 1900s. By then the cross had conquered and enslaved a huge part of the world.
Certainly the use mlitary forces against indigneous Americans in the cnetury has some flavor of a crusade, the Afghan/Communist war was a religious war, the Taliban conquest of Afghanistan, Northern Ireland, the wars in the Baltics, the Armenian Genocide, the jewish genocide, several warsa of Muslims vs no Muslims in Africa. Oh yeh, Pakistan and India have been at it a few times.
SJ @ 69- MTR is demonstrating an ongoing pattern of fleeing when confronted with facts.
@42 Lee said Sorry, you’re absolutely blind. Even my Israeli relatives don’t believe this. The amount of hate for Palestinians among certain sectors of the Israeli (and Israeli-American) populace is just as rabid and just as inexcusable as hate from Muslims and Christians over the years.
Lee you are mixing issues here. As you know MOST Israelis are NOT religious. We were discussing the connection between fundamentalism and religous hatred.
While there certainly is hatred on both sides of this conflict (as in all such conflicts) the role of fundametnalism in Israel, though worrisome is pretty small. Certainly there is no equivalent to Hamas with any chance of coming to power.
From “our” side the antagonosm toward arabs is about what Brits felt for Krauts, Americans for Nips, in their war times.
What is a worry, as I am sure your relatives tell you, is the cheredi birth rate. This may bea s big a demographic threat as trhe West Bank. And yes, some cheredi sects (but not most) do feel that Hashem gave the Jews the keys to the entire place. As you know one such crazy person killed Ruben.
One thing that scares me is that the Hindues seem to be adopting this Christian behavior. IMHO there needs ot be an even handed intolerance against this sort of religion, whoever it comes from.
I find it awesome that people STILL feel it is fine to malign Baal or pagans, still assume one God or three is better than more than that, YET they tolerate the idea that their Deirty is se evil as to not accept good eple unless they sign up for His Official Church. This concept, whether it comes from Muslims,.communists, Christians or whatever, is disgusting.
You sometimes call names, OL, I am happy to called an intlerant prock, but I do not believe any religion with such teachings should be tolerated. Dpes this make me a Red neck?
You should hear my thought oin reinstatement of blasphemy laws and their use to curb the creationsts!
re62: That article does not say or even intimate what you say it said. And the date of the article is 11/12/01.
People were trying to unite behind the incompetent usurper, Bush, and make his presidency appear legitimate.
Why are you so angry, Stamn?
45:
Actually, it wasn’t a term of surrender. Emperor Showa (after his death, Japanese custom is to refer to the deceased monarch by the name of his reign, which means ‘enlightened peace’) rejected his claim of divinty as partial condition of avoiding being tried as a war criminal after WW2. History has shown that the bookish Showa (trained as a marine biologist) was quite possibly kept in the dark as to the fate his military during the war until its final days, when he finally forced the surrender of Japan by an Imperial command known as ‘The Voice Of The Sacred Crane”.
A major and confusing issue is that old peoples, like the Jews, many African tribes prior to Christianity or Islam, Egyptians, often have a religion. So when Notre Dame (another old people) fights Brigham Young, indubitably there respective deities help the fracas and the warriors for each people fight in the name of their respective deity. As ugly as football is, such a conflict is quite different from the Christian and islamic conquests which imposed religions on the conquered people. AFIK, nother the Mormons nor The Catholics get to force mass conversion in the other.
This difference is, of course, not at all humorous. Stalin and Mao both imposed religions just as the Romans did before them and the forces of Islam did got about 400 years after the Prophet’s death. Similarly the enslavers of Africans, intentionally wiped the African Gods away. These are wars for religion.
As a generalization, however, most such wars have been fought in the names if Jesus and Allah (or their denial in the case of Stalin). Jews, Hindus, even Buddhists may fight like the Notre Dame football team uisng their deity for support but a war to impose Hashem, Brahm, Krisha, etc. is hard to find.
Bertrand Russel blamed this sort of evangelical war on monotheism. “How Christian of him, ” would come to mind were it not that BR considered himself an atheist. I rather prefer the line a Zuni head woman gave to Ruth Bendict, the famous anthropologis. “Why aren’t I a Christian? I could never figure how ths Jesus thing could be worth anything if all these Christains want is to give their religion away.” **
** not a literal quote
The definition of “libertarian” is “fiscally conservative/socially tolerant.” Giuliani fits that description like a glove. Ontheissues.org lists him at 60/60 a “Moderate Libertarian.” The only Presidential candidate more libertarian than Giuliani according to the poll is Ron Paul at 70/70.
Numerous libertarians support Giuliani’s candidacy, like Steve Forbes, David Dreier, Bill Simon and Larry Kudlow. Recently, Giuliani appointed a hardcore libertarian think tanker – Sally Pipes of the Pacific Research Inst. as his Top Policy Advisor.
To say Giuliani is an “authoritarian” the exact opposite of libertarian, is just plain silly.
Giuliani is Pro-Choice, and he cut Taxes 23 times as Mayor of NYC. Authoritarians aren’t in the business of allowing women to decide to control their reproductive health, and they are certainly not in the business of cutting taxes.
Libertarians for Giuliani at:
http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com
WWDS (what would Diallo say)?
@44
Pretty much my entire family lives in and around New York. Just look at the polls. Among New York City voters, Hillary blows away Giuliani in head-to-head.
@75
To say Giuliani is an “authoritarian” the exact opposite of libertarian, is just plain silly.
You would be laughed out of the room if you said this to people at the CATO Institute. If you don’t believe me, I could probably get some members to email you directly and explain why you’re wrong. You don’t have the beginnings of a clue about what the term libertarian really means.
@75
The definition of “libertarian” is “fiscally conservative/socially tolerant.”
Um, no. Libertarianism is the modern extension of the classical liberal philosophy, which was about opposing government that was non-representative and made attempts to impose taxation. The cornerstone of this belief is that government should not have the right to presuppose the decisions of individuals under the guise of keeping them safe. That’s PRECISELY the opposite of Giuliani’s mindset. Giuliani isn’t just authoritarian, he’s arguably the MOST authoritarian Presidential candidate we’ve had in the past 25 years, at least.
@71
Lee you are mixing issues here. As you know MOST Israelis are NOT religious. We were discussing the connection between fundamentalism and religous hatred.
No, we weren’t. Someone else mentioned religion, but I did not. The Middle East is not the way it is because of religion. The Middle East is the way it is because of politics and oil. Religion is just the way people have been rallied to fight for politics and oil.
While there certainly is hatred on both sides of this conflict (as in all such conflicts) the role of fundametnalism in Israel, though worrisome is pretty small.
Fundamentalism is similarly small on the Palestianian side (even if radicalism is not). Fundamentalism tends to be a function of a feeling of powerlessness. That feeling is very common in the Palestinian territories, but also more common in Israel than in much of the rest of the world. Israel very much has a Middle Eastern mindset, and it’s a trend that has occurred over the last 30 years.
From “our” side the antagonosm toward arabs is about what Brits felt for Krauts, Americans for Nips, in their war times.
And neither of those examples of antagonism were minor. We locked up all our Japanese-American citizens in WWII. That didn’t happen because of only 5-10 bad seeds. It reflected a much larger sentiment. All humans are susceptible to this. Being a Jew does not make you immune, and I find it terrifying that you think that. It’s how you’ve allowed yourself to simply block out and excuse what’s happening to the Palestinians.
I’d be laughed out of the room at Cato for saying Giuliani leans libertarian? Funny you should say that. I just had a Cato guy on my radio show last night. And though he didn’t say it explicitly, he hinted strongly that he was supporting Giuliani.
Listen in to the podcast of Libertarian Politics Live at http://www.blogtalkradio.com/libertarian
@81
Hahaha! OK, Eric…
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=8264
http://www.cato.org/view_ddisp.....e=20070628
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org.....-giuliani/
Like any organization, CATO will have those with tangential views, but if you think that Boaz’s views aren’t shared by most of his colleagues, you’re nuts.
Wow. What a rant. Umm, so besides your opinion, what do you actually have to back up this theory?
[Deleted – Slander]
[Deleted – Slander]
@78 Lee
I am mystified by the purpted support for Giuliani. is this media hype? How do folks in upperstate NY feel about this?
@84 and @85
Steve,
I gave you a warning. If you accuse me of saying things that I did not say, your comments will be deleted. You accused me of saying the following two things:
– There is no fundamentalism in the Arab world
– The radicalism in Israel comes solely from Judaic teachings
That is why your comments were removed. If you want to debate fairly, I enjoy the back and forth. If you continue to put words in my mouth in order to look like you’re winning an argument, your comments will be deleted. I don’t have the time, or the energy, to set the record straight today.
Lee:
Putting words into the mouth of another is an old HorsesAss tradition. Deleting posts because of it is not. Do we really want to become the left wing version of unSP?
SeattleJew’s comments can be frustrating, and a pretty easy argument against his basic premise can be made by anyone familiar with Exodus (historical) or modern Israeli politics (current).
Assuming that he claimed you said certain things, then simply deny it and challenge him to come up with the quotes.
But if we’re going to become a moderated blog, then SeattleJew should certainly not be the first target.
Now, if you deleted the entire argument (most likely including this post) because it is off-topic, that’s a bit different.
@88
John,
There’s a lot of history here you’re not aware of. On my other blog (Blog Reload), SeattleJew was doing it so often I simply had to ban him (and he’s the only person I’ve ever banned in over 3 years). It’s a common tactic he employs whenever I argue with him. He will start recreating my argument as something very different than what it is in order to make it seem as if he’s winning. In reality, I consider it no different than slander in the sense that he regularly insinuates that I’m racist in order to do it. I gave him another warning about this a few threads back that if he did it here again, I would delete his comment. Sure enough, he did it.
87 Lee
88 John
If Lee can not tolerate free speech, Lee should not be editing this blog.
I certainly have never slandered him, nor would I since I respect his integrity. Even if I had, when did name calling become a fault here? The worst thing I have ever called Lee is “Bubbelah” ,, an affectionate term for a small. older Jewish woman. His words for me have ranged over a more ill tempered, sarcastic tonal scale.
On the point, at least one of his deletions was largely a quote of a former post by Lee to remind Lee of what he had said. Any slander was in his own words.
To be a bit more specific, I have never accused Lee of racism or anything of the sort. I have even introduced Lee to some folks I know in the Black community because I think Lee’s ideas about drugs have a lot of merit and would hope he could help get some things done.
On his other issues, under risk of being deleted again, the points I have made are these:
1. I do not believe tolerance should extend to religion when religion is intolerant. There is major need for reform in the Islamic community because of the role of extremists. Lee simply does not believe this is an issue that should be raised, that is his business, I disagree,
2. To the best of my memory Lee never claimed (and I never said he claimed)that the cheredi (extreme orthodox)were the “sole” cause of antagonism amongst Israelis to Palestinians.
John, if Lee will allow debate, let me be more useful by ignoring his comments and replying to yours. In a famous essay Bertrand Russel BLAMED the Jews for Christian and Islamic irredentism. Karen Armstrong, a brilliant writer on abrahamic religions, has made a similar claim. So this idea has prestigious company if Lee , or you,believes this. With all respect to Bertie and Karen AND Lee, I think none of these folks knew or know enough about Judaism or archeology to support the accusation that Jews invented religious wars of conversion.
Since the censor deleted my earlier posts, here the ideas are again.
Jews, like most peoples, have conducted nationalistic wars. We have never, however, fought a war of religious conversion, i.e. a crusade, or to bring our law to other peoples, as in the Islamic explosion. Indeed the process of conversion to Judaism is hard enough that the Christian concept of war would not make any sense. As for conquest to establish the rule of Hallakah (Jewish Law) over non Jews, that is an imaginable interpretation of the Christian version of our bible, the”old testament,” but is not historically accurate.
The usual example cited asserting that we started the whole tradition of crusades and Jihad is the conquest of Cannan by Joshua and of the Philistines by David, inter alia.
Let me explain, assuming our censor is leaving the thread alone, that Jews, unlike Muslims and Christians do not and have never considered these books (Judges, Kings and Prophets) to be revealed truth. Only the Torah .. your 5 books, is considered revealed. These books are more like history books. But the history is mythic. THERE is no imperative in Judaism to consider the acts of people in these books as factual, ethical or moral.
Second, the wars described are wars of national conquest not religious conversion. Joshua’s battles are closer to those of Shaka Zulu then they are to the crusades or Islamic expansion.
Third, the practice of equating the Cananni to the Palestinians is absurd, The modern descendants of the Canaani are not the Palestinians unless they, that is the Palestinians, are descended from the Jews of Jesus time since by then the Cannani had been totally replaced by Hebrews,
Fourth, archeology now says that these conquests NEVER occurred. They are no more and no less than founding myths. You like Romulus and Remus?
Bottom line, Jews do not celebrate these conquests, nor do we beieve in conversion by conquest. To the best of my knowledge, the ideas about religious war orginated with the Romanization of Christianity and were later adopted by Islam.
Lee’s second issue has to do with Israel vs the Palestinians. A fair discussion of these issues is too long for here, but one point was made before the censor had his way. The only people who saw the founding of Israel as a religious matter were Christians and Muslims. The founding Zionists and to this day the great majority of Zionists are at least secular and many were atheists. As a matter of fact … to this day a very large number of orthodox Jews OPPOSE Israel because they feel Jewish state should not be established until the messiah comes .. including the red calf and the lineal descendent of King David.Some of these folks have appeared with Arafat and more recently with Ahmadinejad.
@89 Lee
WADR yes you deleted me, but not for the reason you state. Also, it is a bit of an exaggeration to state that I am the only person banned, as I am also one of a very few poeple who posted there. I do know I made you angry, but you are not being honest. One point I will make, winning an argument by deleting anothers’ comments is not very convincing.
It seems to me that in your own blog you can do what you want, but this sort of behavior here is wrong.
John,
Given lee’s intemeprate editing, I have summarized the threat over at SeattleJew. If you want to discuss the issues he deleted, you are welcome there.