One of the election “reforms” the Washington state GOP has aggressively proposed is eliminating the process of ballot “duplication”, through which ballots that could not otherwise be read by the vote tabulating machines are manually copied to register the clear intent of voters.
“This whole process makes us very nervous,” [State GOP chair] Chris Vance says … “You’ve got human beings making judgments and human beings touching the ballots. It just leads to mischief. … We could say, ‘Let the machines count the ballots and that’s it.’ ”
Yeah… well… according to an article in today’s Seattle Times, calming Vance’s nerves would have required disenfranchising 8.3% of King County voters in November’s general election, and nearly 113,000 voters in the state’s nine largest counties.
There’s a reason the GOP’s early claims last year of a ballot duplication scandal were quietly dropped during Dino Rossi’s ensuing election contest: there is no scandal. WA is a “voter intent” state, and that means officials must do what they can to count a ballot if the voter’s intent can be discerned. Ballot duplication is a transparent, well-documented process performed in every county in the state.
“The purpose of an election is to discern the will of the majority,” says Dean Logan, King County’s elections director. “It’s not to determine whether voters can follow directions.
“Are we going to disenfranchise someone because they used the wrong pen?”
[Secretary of State Sam] Reed, a Republican, agrees. “To deny somebody the right to have their vote counted because they made a mistake is not something we want to do,” he says. Many of those voters are elderly or disabled, Reed adds.
What types of ballots require duplication? Well, some are damaged in the mail, and others are those where voters corrected a mistake, as instructed, by drawing an X through the oval they already filled in, then filling in the right one. But the vast majority are simply ballots where voters used the wrong color pen, or just didn’t follow instructions… circling, checking, or putting X’s through ovals instead of filling them… or using some other creative ballot marking method. On the vast majority of these ballots the voter’s intent is clear and unmistakable… the handful remaining go to the canvassing board for final determination.
So why would Vance and the Republicans want to disenfranchise people who simply make mistakes? Because a statistically significant majority of these ballots come from the very old and the very young, the very poor and the least educated, and of course, first time voters… demographic groups all of which lean Democratic. This is why Democrats, across jurisdictions, tend to pick up votes during recounts, when more care is given towards counting all ballots, and not merely those the machine happens to read on the first pass.
So let’s be honest. Republicans know that if not for ballot duplication, Dino Rossi would likely be our governor, and it would be Slade Gorton running for reelection next year, not Sen. Maria Cantwell. Nearly all of the electoral “reforms” the Republicans have pushed have been naked efforts to achieve a partisan advantage. The harder they can make it for somebody to register to vote, to cast their ballot, or to have their ballot properly tabulated, the easier it is for Republicans to win close elections. The voters who are most likely to be disenfranchised by these “reforms” vote disproportionately for Democrats. Out of touch with the mainstream of voters in WA state, and unwilling to match their agenda to the wants and needs of the majority of the people, the GOP has instead chosen a strategy of shrinking the voter pool to more closely match the demographics of their base.
Had all the Republican “reforms” been in place during 2004, over a quarter of a million eligible voters would have been disenfranchised statewide. That is the GOP strategy for seizing power in WA state, and nationwide. And that is a strategy that Democrats must make their number one priority to fight.
Goldy: “Nearly all of the electoral ‘reforms’ the Republicans have pushed have been naked efforts to achieve a partisan advantage.”
And Democratic heel-dragging on election reforms combined with “flexible” vote counting policies are naked efforts to achieve a partisan advantage and maintain the status quo. This is news???!!
In their defense, at least the Republicans want everybody to follow the same exact rules and OBJECTIVE standards — vote properly or it doesn’t count.
I find it ironic that people wail about the importance of their RIGHT to vote, yet don’t accept the associated RESPONSIBILITY to pay attention enough to do it properly.
A quarter of a million people can’t fill in the ovals?
Amazing!
Goldy,
You seem to have a lot of faith in the King County Elections Canvassing Board. Is said board non-partisan… or even party-balanced? Does said board contain subordinates of people who are running in the election being reviewed? If Tom DeLay were on the KingCo board, wouldn’t you be screaming ’til you were red in the face and tears streamed from your eyes??
Me @ 1
In retrospect, where I said “ironic,” I really should have said:
sad
disappointing
disheartening
unpatriotic
stupid
lazy
typically Far Lefty
head-shaking and eye-rolling
Isnt this darwinism at its finest?
If you can’t follow directions, or ask help from the willing volunteers who are there to assist, then maybe you dont need to vote? Perhaps not. people make mistakes and thoere shold be mecahnisim to address obvious ones. Some however are not obvious, or at least do not obviously indicate voter intent.
Ballot enhancement is something I think we should tread lightly on, just as voter intent, which is terribly subjective needs to have careful discrenment.
Shark showed several exapmples of ballots with the same markings being counting inconsistently.
I will happily denounce this republican effort, if the republicans and democrats jointly sponser consistent and realistic guidelines for enhancement and determining voter intent.
But the biggest burden is still on the voters, who have clear instructions, trained people to assist them and a responsibility to vote responsibly.
I thought you idiots hate Darwin…
Dear Goldy,
Why not change this whole voting hub-bub and follow the lead of
most democracies in the world and have MANDITORY voting?Maybe tie
the responsibility of voting to the privilege of driving?
On a more personal note your good work makes me proud to live
in Washington.Thanks!
Goldie: Thank you!
In Thurston County, we have all mail elections. The ballot instructions clearly state that if you make a mistake, to put an X over the wrong entry, then write or make it clear which entry is correct. I would be voting legally in doing so.
However, the repulsivcans…Chris Rants, Stefan and others would take away my vote simply because the machine wouldn’t read it on the first pass.
You are 100% correct, they are trying to take away as many votes as possible, and this should be the democrats highest priority…preventing these bastards from taking away legal votes.
Goldy – are you saying that Democrat voters are more likely to be unable to follow simple directions? Do we need special voting rules for Democrat voters? Like you say, Washington is a “voter intent” state so we should really count the “votes” of anybody who intended to vote, whether they got out of bed that day or not.
I think we are just takling about your crew changing 250k ballots becuase they can dude.
Time to put a stop to this nonsense.
“Disenfranchise” Democrat voters: kicking out illegal and fraudulent votes. Stopping black districts from voting at 115% of registration. Stopping New York “Upper East Side” Democrats from double voting in NYC and Palm Beach. [Solution: Let’s make voter fraud a capital offense. I would enjoy watching a few thousand GORE 2000 double NY/FL voters fry!! [I guess that makes me a Nazi to Goldy!]
Shark uses the handful of ballots that are difficult to interpret to support his position that ballots not filled out perfectly should be thrown out. I think there were less than a couple of dozen votes that were accepted in 2004 on a 2 – 1 vote of the canvassing board. Does the fact that 20 or 25 ballots may be ambiguous justify throwing out tens of thousands for which the intent is obvious? Only if your interest is in suppressing the total vote for partisan advantage.
Republicans hate freedom. They hate free elections. They want dictatorships and theocracy. So they will use every tactic known to man to shut down the right to vote. Whether it’s the tricks they played in Florida or the outright rigging of the machines in Ohio or the refusal to accept our state’s written policy of recognizing voter intent, the GOP doesn’t want ANYONE to vote. They’d rather seize power by force and govern by threat. Well this is one reason why I personally belong to the NRA. They won’t take away my vote without a fight!
Goldy, would you support significant restrictions in absentee voting — since absentee voting tends to disenfranchise tens of thousands of people in every election, even before their ballots can be taken out of the envelope and counted.
Take a look at the absentee ballot report compiled by King County Elections for the Novemner 2005 general election:
http://www.soundpolitics.com/M.....rt2005.pdf
395,531 absentee ballots were mailed back. Out of these, some 7,915 (just over 2%) were not even counted and the ballots were not taken out of the envelope. While a few dozen of these represented uncompleted ballots returned with notations such as “deceased” and “moved”, the vast majority of these rejects appear to be from real voters who were disenfranchised due to inadvertent errors on the voter’s part.
For example, 4,210 voters mailed their ballots back too late, according to the postmark. Why did they waste a 37 cent stamp, unless they subjectively thought they were voting correctly and timely?
2,491 voters didn’t sign their signature in the same manner that they signed their voter registration, and were rejected as signature miscompares.
450 voters forgot the sign the absentee ballot envelope at all, and of course had to be rejected.
167 voters were caught in a real Catch-22 — King County Elections lost their voter registration signature applications. Without a signature on file to verify, their absentee ballots could not be counted no matter what. (Too bad the sanctimonious Democrats have never attempted to correct this real voter disenfranchisement problem.)
So we have 2% of absentee voters who never get their votes counted because of procedural errors in signing and returning the ballot. And out of the people whose voters are counted, at least 10% of them (nearly all of the ballot duplication is from absentee votes, as opposed to poll votes) are not able to follow the very simple instructions for filling out the ovals.
We could avoid these problems by placing significant restrictions on absentee voting, and allowing it only for people who have a legitimate reason not to go to the polls.
For example, if someone plans to be out of town on election day, they could be allowed to cast an absentee ballot IN PERSON at the county auditor’s office, or at selected other locations in the county, by voting during an early voting period prior to election day.
Absentee ballots should not be mailed out of state, except for voters who can document that they are eligible to vote in Washington, despite not being physically present. Such as military personnel, students, and citizens living abroad who last resided in Washington.
@13
I don’t see any Republicans seizing power by force and governing by threat. I’m glad you belong to the NRA and if you give us your address we will make sure we avoid your house when we storm King County and take Seattle by force. Just let us know who to put on our list to avoid needless bloodshed. We’ve got you and the Rabitt armed to the hilt!
LT: I agreed with you on one point last week, but now I think you are disturbed and put everything together. And being a member of the NRA doesn’t endear you to the liberals on this blog either.
What tricks were played in Floriday ? List them, proof them and pls make sure to separate them into republican and democrat “tricks”. What voting machines were outright rig’d in Ohio, pls proof or show compelling evidence other than a blog.
Yes, WA state is a voter intend state and that is fine by me. But as with many many things lately, common sense has left the building. If I have individuals trying to deduce what the voter intented when it’s clear that he/she wasn’t able to follow instructions or wasn’t sure what to do or just screwed up, it leaves the door open too all kinds of misinterpretations and outright mistakes by the “interpreters”. On SP were a few examples and even if you take those as a few selected examples and by no means a common threat…it still leaves me to believe that human beings with an agenda are not able or willing to objectively find out what the voter intended. That’s where the problem is: Assuming for example that a voter wanted to vote for Gregoire because he/she voted for democrate candidate for Sec of State is far fetched and just an assumption. I for example voted for Rossi and Ruderman…hmmm, how does that fit together.
What needs to happen is to have a clear guideline and not an arbitrary decision by a biased canvassing board.
But as long as the majority of you just assume that it’s ok as long as the republicans in WA don’t like it…you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
I know, how about a mandatory “church attendance” provision, to allow voting? Or a “property ownership” lower limit? (oops, that’s been unconstitutional for some time now, hasn’t it?) Best yet, “How white are you” test?
People make mistakes. Both the intent and the letter of our current laws account for this. The REPUBLICAN Secretary of State says it’d be a bad idea to change as the State GOP wants. If the State GOP’s intent wasn’t so ridiculously transparent, it’d be disgusting. And you folks say you are the more “ethical” party. Ha!
Goldy, can you reference the demographicstatistics you mention?
Richard Pope @14,
Careful where you go there with that argument. It totally undermines the GOP assertion that KC Dems stole the 2004 gubernatorial election, when in fact, due to its stricter signature matching standards, KC left thousands of absentee ballots uncounted. If KC had used the looser standards of some other counties, Gregoire would have led in all three counts.
Personally, I’m not a huge fan of absentee voting (have never done so myself) but it’s too late to put the genie back in the bottle. The market has chosen, and we will eventually be an all mail-in state. It’s inevitable.
So rather than focusing on eliminating mail-in voting, we should focus on technology that helps voters do it properly. One idea is “Computer Assisted Voting”, in which the voter fills out his or her ballot via an online website, prints it out in a voter verifiable form, and then mails it back in the envelope provided by the county. This would eliminate over-votes and unintentional under-votes, and assure that all such ballots are correctly filled out. (Of course, one would still have the option of filling one out by hand.)
As to ballots mailed back late, that requires greater education… my guess is most of these are people who dropped their ballots into mailboxes on election day, past the pick up time.
Signature matching is the big problem. What we need is a better and more aggressive system of notifying voters when their signature is rejected, so that this can be corrected before the vote is certified. We also need more consistent signature matching standards statewide.
Goldy—
Congrats for posting a thread with no mention that you are a Holocaust victim from Philly!
Seriously, anytime you add an additional human factor, such as duplicating ballots and discerning voter intent, it adds another potential loophole for ERRORS and GRAFT. Any systems analyst will tell you that.
Since issues like ballots damaged in the mail are legitimate issues for duplication, some duplication INTERNAL CONTROLS must be added whereby both Party’s have very close access and review of the duplication process. Plus, very clear, consistent procedures must be adopted about voter intent.
Stefan could have pulled out many more of these examples where 1 group of duplicators use one standard…..and another use a different standard.
A lack of consistency is DISENFRANCHISEMENT too!!
Just because you count the ballot is not necessarily a good thing….if you count ballots unconsistently.
Its amazing the power you guys attribute to the Republicans.
not only do they want to disenfranchize just the democrats, they can magically with a Carnack like precision determine only those votes that are from Democrats and target them specifically. Incredible.
Like it or not people on boths sides make errors, and people on all sides cheat, and unless you subscribe to some notion that democrats either make more mistakes, or committ more fraud then the republicans,(and I do not subscribe to that theory), then any attempts to toss out illegal votes hurts both sides equally.
Likewise, any attempts to keep elections fair and accurate helps both sides equally.
Your complaints that Republicans do not want fair elections is patently lacking in logic.
Holding all partes to the same fair and consistent standards *is* the foundation of a fair election.
Every time a democrat complains that attempts to impose standards hurts them specifically, they imply that the democrats could not win if the elctions were fair. It amuses me that you constantly insult your own voter base.
Larry @ 17: “People make mistakes”
You are right. And people have to accept the consequences of their mistakes, too. People should show a level of care commensurate with the level of value they place on an activity.
You get out of it what you put in. If you don’t bother to read and/or follow the instructions, “we the people” are under no obligation to “bother” to count your vote.
Oh and another thing Goldy, I see you left out the part that Michigan and other states are NOT Loosey-goosey voter intent states like the People’s Republic of Washington. The Times also said:
“Not all states are as accommodating (as the People’s Socialist Republic of Washington). Michigan, for one, won’t count a ballot that isn’t filled out right.”
Clearly, the biggest problem is in KingCo where Logan is APPOINTED as a partisan appointment….rather than elected. Real appearance of fairness problem here.
Left turn,
“A lie told often enough becomes truth.”
Lenin lives…..
Keep the baseless allegatoins coming….
Goldy you left out the word “illegal”
“State GOP would disenfranchise [ILLEGAL] 250,000 voters”
Goldy: Why don’t you answer Richard’s points or questions ?
And while the online voting is an idea, I bet we would hear the cries of “disenfranchisment” again because people don’t have a computer, don’t have access to one, can’t operate one, etc…
plus…let’s not forget the cries on your side about “rigging” the voting machines…
Richard brings up good points. As absentee balloting is even less visible to the voters and the observers, people don’t know if their vote was counted or not.
Goldy @ 18: “Signature matching is the big problem.”
How do you feel about biometrics?
Richard Pope @ 14
“2,491 voters didn’t sign their signature in the same manner that they signed their voter registration, and were rejected as signature miscompares.”
In the 2004 election I received a telephone call from KC that my signature didn’t match, and they mailed me a new registration form to fill out, which I did, and I sent it back by the deadline they gave me. I doubt that all of the “miscompares” you mention were not ultimately counted.
Daddy,
Good point.
But it doesnt change the fact that a signature verification process is subjective and flawed at its root.
There has to be a better way, and the elections officials owe it to the people to find it.
Cynical @19,
There are internal controls, and the entire duplication process is logged, with the original ballot stored. One can go back and audit the process, comparing the originals to the duplicates and look for fraud or error, and matching the ballots to the election workers who duplicated them. Furthermore, the whole process occurs under the nose of bipartisan observers.
You know, it is so fucking typical of the rhetoric coming from your side, that you want to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of voters based on the potential for fraud, when you have absolutely no evidence that duplication has fraud has ever occurred! None! Zero! Zilch! If Vance is so convinced something crooked is going on, the GOP should just go and audit the duplicated ballots and prove it to us.
seadog @25,
I answered Richard. Read what I wrote. (And no, I wasn’t calling for online voting… I was describing a process in which ballots could be created on one’s home computer and printed off. Again, read what I wrote.)
goldy,
Since 1 party controls the elections, rather than make “us” challenge, why not have the Elections stuff audited, figured out?
Nobody other than partisan Dems has said nothing needs fixing..
seadog is correct, the duplication process is highly audited and auditable. Of 3000 ballots our team duplicated in the general election, 6 were sent to the canvass board to determine voter intent. On all the others, what the voter wanted to do was clear. If any of the party observers that watched over the month of November didn’t agree, they could have requested the ballot in question be sent to the canvass board, and we would have complied. None did.
28 of Washington’s 39 countied now or will vote exclusively by mail. King County will do so once they have an adequate facility. Vote-by-mail is how citizens want to vote, and to deny it is anti-democratic.
It was goldy that was correct about the process, seadog is out to lunch.
Sven,
any attempts to toss out illegal votes hurts both sides equally.
It is only rarely that we are talking about “tossing out illegal votes.” Often, as today, the conversation is about proposals to change the rules such that currently legal votes would BE MADE illegal.
Current law allows that “a physically damaged ballot or ballot that may be otherwise unreadable or uncountable by the tabulating system” may be duplicated so as to be countable “if so authorized by the county canvassing board.” Further, this can be done “only if the intent of the voter’s marks on the ballot is clear” and only if it is performed by “teams of two or more people working together, following the legal steps necessary to “create and maintain an audit trail.” (RCW 29A.60.125)
Canvassing boards have a number of disretionary powers. My impression is that the attempts to change our election rules to disempower county canvassing boards are intended to disenfranchise (as mentioned earlier) young, elderly, and poorly edutcated voters, in the hopes that such disenfranchisement will, both overall and particularly in KC, benefit GOP candidates. Also, our state GOP MUST keep the yelling going and charges flying around elections both to keep the base motivated and to justify the questionable election challenges they plan to file in 2006.
@31, Voter Advocate said “…Of 3000 ballots our team duplicated in the general election, 6 were sent to the canvass board to determine voter intent.”
This proves the point I made last week that all of the problems the repulsivecans, Rants and Stefan site are minor in nature, and not the end of the world conspiracy that they claim.
The repulsives are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill, and believe that legal voters need to be taken off the rolls.
SUPREME COURT ACCEPTS TEXAS REDISTRICTING CHALLENGE!
In a move that surprised lawyers, SCOTUS has not only agreed to review Democratic Party and minority group challenges to Tom DeLay’s gerrymandered redistricting of Texas that gave the GOP a slim majority in Congress, but has fast-tracked the case. At issue is whether the crassly partisan manipulation of Texas’s congressional district for the GOP’s benefit violated the “one man, one vote” rule of constitutional law. By the time SCOTUS decides the case, two justices who have supported the court’s hands-off approach to redistricting cases — Rehnquist and O’Connor — will be off the court, signaling a possible turn in SCOTUS policy … and possible rejection of the Texas redistricting scheme.
how did you know :-)
Goldy: Online shmonline…you still need a pc (home computer) to do what you suggest. So that still will call for disenfranchising 100s of Thousands of voters with no computer or no access.
And Goldy: You did not address Richards concerns or questions, you spin around it. Absentee ballots not counted, thrown out etc are disenfranchising as well because of “mistakes”. Read what I wrote and read what he wrote :-)
seadog
I have voted at the polling places dozens of times. I never knew if my vote was counted. How could I? That’s no different from absentee.
1
It never ceases to amaze me how hard Republicans work to deny American citizens the right to vote while spending the lives of other people’s children to bring “democracy” to foreign lands like Iraq!
If Republicans get their way, only propertied white males will be allowed to vote. That’s why we have to shove their “election reforms” up their collective asses.
Roger,
What is wrong or illegal with what Delay did? Everybody gerrymanders. The map I saw of California’s recently is disgusting. And before you snatch my head off, I don’t know the history other than he did it.
To all trolls: I propose we restore literacy tests. Any voter who can’t spell a representative sampling of simple one-syllable words will not be allowed to vote. That will eliminate 85% of the Republican votes.
Of course, Republicans have no problem with counting the votes of military voters who can’t follow instructions, such as mailing their ballot on time or mailing it at all.
sgmmac
First, by over a century of convention, redistricting is done ONCE after the census. In Texas, that fist redistrictign could not be accomplished by the Texas legislature because of partisan divisions, so a court ultimately drew the lines. then later in the decade DeLay’s boys redistricted AGAIN to redistrict the state’s Democrats out of their House seats. The GOP picked up five seats in the next election. Computers are powerful and wonderful things.
Second, I don’t know all the detials, but the Voting Rights Act does not allow you to make certain types of redistricitng changes. The Justice Department lawyers warned that the texas changes violated the Act. The DOJ has a new plan now: don’t let the lawyers comment.
10
“I think we are just takling about your crew changing 250k ballots becuase they can dude. Time to put a stop to this nonsense.”
Here’s an example of a voter who would fail Roger Rabbit’s simple literacy test. This fool not only doesn’t know what he’s talking about, he also can’t spell the words “talking” and “because.” He probably doesn’t know what he’s doing when he chooses candidates on his ballot, either.
Since duplication of ballots begins before election day, my work partner and I were under the impressions that the race was close between Ron Sims and David Irons.
Be careful what you wish for.
12
“Shark uses the handful of ballots that are difficult to interpret to support his position that ballots not filled out perfectly should be thrown out.”
Shark doesn’t even wait for them to fill out their ballots. He throws them out of the polling place before they get a chance to mark their ballots.
13
Liberals must arm!
Daddy,
It is only rarely that we are talking about “tossing out illegal votes.” Often, as today, the conversation is about proposals to change the rules such that currently legal votes would BE MADE illegal.
Um thats not totally accurate. most of the conversations are about application and enforcement of existing guidelines and laws against votes that are being counted illegally or contrary to existing laws. It is simplistic to say that all of those 250k are legal votes, when the law clearly has guidelines and they are outside those guides.
But assume you are right. if those votes that you refer to are impossible to validate, and could easily be fraudulant, shouldn’t we have laws to protect the integrity of the process?
After all, if they are valid and legal then a new process to validate them will prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt.
in other words, assume that I grant your assertation that they want to change laws to disallow 250k votes that are presently allowed.
Before we indict the process of election reform, shouldn’t there be a discussion about what is flawed about those votes making them a target of reform?
Current law allows that “a physically damaged ballot or ballot that may be otherwise unreadable or uncountable by the tabulating system” may be duplicated so as to be countable “if so authorized by the county canvassing board.”
And i have no problem with that actually, as long as there is a process to accurate trasnfer the information to a clean ballot. In other words, lets make sure the law has a clear guide on *how* to do it.
Further, this can be done “only if the intent of the voter’s marks on the ballot is clear” and only if it is performed by “teams of two or more people working together, following the legal steps necessary to “create and maintain an audit trail.” (RCW 29A.60.125)
Ok, first of all, we know that in the 2004 election, this was not followed correctly. Some were enhanced with markers making the original marks impossible to vaerify. So now they do it better, but the law you cite is vague on how to perform the audit trail and how to ensure integrity is assured.
But my biggest issue is that “voter intent” is highly subjective. You may not like Stefan and his Pit Bull like grasp on Ron Sims leg, but he has shown conclusively that determining voter intent is inconsistently applied.
That right there must be addressed. The entire concept of voter intent is too subjective to be applied properly.
And again, it ignores the voters personal responsibility to treat voting seriously.
Canvassing boards have a number of disretionary powers. My impression is that the attempts to change our election rules to disempower county canvassing boards are intended to disenfranchise (as mentioned earlier) young, elderly, and poorly edutcated voters, in the hopes that such disenfranchisement will, both overall and particularly in KC, benefit GOP candidates.
Again, you assume that a) only those people are disenfranchised because they would be the only ones making mistakes, and b) they only vote democratic. This is akin to the proportional voting method that the repuiblicans relied on in their challange, and the courts have ruled it faulty.
Your statement is patronizing to your own voters, as it presumes they are ignorant, niave or jsut plain incapable of following simple rules. I wont say that about democrats, why would you?
And even if it isnt, voter education and responsiblity is not impossible to achieve.
What tightening the rules does is ensure there is little room for accusations of fraud or malfeasence. It allows the process to become above trivial accusations.
Also, our state GOP MUST keep the yelling going and charges flying around elections both to keep the base motivated and to justify the questionable election challenges they plan to file in 2006.
Well, that’s obviously your opinion, and of course shows none of your personal bias at all.
14
Richard, why do you hate absentee voters? In our state, many voters are employed in natural resource and trade industries that require them to be away from home on election day — commercial fishing, Alaska construction, pilots, merchant seaman, etc. They have as much right to vote as you do, but appaently you don’t think so.
Roger @ 46
That is so untrue. He offered the guy a provisional ballot as he was required to do.
Why is the truth such an unreasonable standard?
16
“Yes, WA state is a voter intend state and that is fine by me. But as with many many things lately, common sense has left the building. If I have individuals trying to deduce what the voter intented when it’s clear that he/she wasn’t able to follow instructions or wasn’t sure what to do or just screwed up, it leaves the door open too all kinds of misinterpretations and outright mistakes by the ‘interpreters’.”
Seadog — it’s time to call bullshit on your hogwash. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Have you ever been an observer? Have you ever actually watched the duplication or enhancement process? Do you even know how it works?
Here’s how it works. A county employee shows the ballot to observers from the Republican, Democratic, and Libertarian parties. All of these observers must agree on who the voter voted for; any one of them can send the ballot to the canvassing board for determination of voter intent. Only the canvassing board has authority to make such determinations; if there is any question about who the voter intended to vote for, that decision is NOT made in the d & e process.
When a ballot is “enhanced,” usually because the voter didn’t completely fill in the oval, a county employee fills in the oval with the party observers watching. The observers then inspect the “enhanced” ballot to satisfy themselves the vote wasn’t changed.
Ballots are “duplicated” if the machine can’t read the ballot because of a physical defect such as a tear, smudge, etc. Such defects often are not the voter’s fault; particularly in a recount, ballots get handled many times, and the sensitive timing marks on the edge can get frayed simply from feeding the ballot through the counting machines. To duplicate a ballot, a county employee marks a fresh ballot form with the voter’s choice(s), and the duplicate ballot is fed through the machine. Once again, the party observers carefully examine both the original and duplicated ballot, and can send any questionable ballot to the canvassing board. The original ballot is preserved, and the duplicate ballot is accounted for in such a way that it can be matched to the original from which it was copied.
The d & e process is totally transparent, and if any questionable ballots get through or votes get changed, that is entirely the fault of the party observers who are supposed to prevent that from happening. It is extremely doubtful, in fact almost impossible, that even one duplicated or enhanced ballot was changed in King County from the voter’s intent in last year’s gubernatorial recounts, although I can’t speak for any of the GOP counties. Who knows what Rossi’s people did out in the hinterlands where there aren’t very many Democrats keeping an eye on them.
sven:
you claim to be a moderate/independant/etc…
But you hold 100% true to the USP/GOP line.
re:46, he tried to convince the guy he couldn’t vote, and was kicked out of his voulenteer position. Are you saying you know more about it than his supervisor?
The one thing that the GOP has made clear between 2004 and 2005 is that they think the issues are too important to allow the people to decide. They know they’re losing… and in their desperation, they’re trying to cheat. But, here at least, they lose anyways.
If the GOP’s goal here isn’t clear to you, you have your blinders on.
Roger @ 41: “I propose… Any voter who can’t spell a representative sampling of simple one-syllable words will not be allowed to vote. That will eliminate 85% of the Republican votes.”
And 98.4% of Dem votes.
Well over have the citizens were disenfranchized with the way King County Elections handled the last election. What seems to be the difference?
Sven.
Then I must say it is great to have fair, unbiased you here to set us all straight.
It is simplistic to say that all of those 250k are legal votes
Goldy did make a vague and broad statement about “all” prosed GOP reform disenfranchising ~250k voters, but his post was ands is specifcally about duplication, affecting 113000 votes, ALL of which were legal under current law. So you should know that ~I~ am not talking about that 250K votes but rather about the 113K duplicated ballots. I’ll ignore your comments that assume otherwise.
duplication: So now they do it better, but the law you cite is vague on how to perform the audit trail and how to ensure integrity is assured.
THIS is not clear? I beg to differ.
The entire concept of voter intent is too subjective to be applied properly.
It is applied the only way it can be, by the decisions of humans, backed up by the bipartisan scrutny of other humans PLUS the cnavassing board. Maybe it’s an “original sin” thing with you. That is, you don’t trust humans no matter what. I go by Jimmy Carter’s old rule “trust, but verify.” ;)
it ignores the voters personal responsibility to treat voting seriously.
Huh? Gee what if the most serious of voters mae a mistake anyway? It is the State’s responsibility to ensure as many as possible of that those with a legal right to vote can and do. It is not and should not be the State’s reponsibility to imnpose ever-more-burdensome restrictions on our most precious franchise. But perhaps that is the difference between us.
Your statement is patronizing to your own voters, as it presumes they are ignorant, niave or jsut plain incapable of following simple rules.
Dear, dear, you poor little unbiased slip seems to be showing. Take a random sample of young, elderly, and poor voters in heavily populated King County. What do YOU think–majority Democrat? Very likely. That’s all I meant, and that’s DEFINITELY all I said. Don’t put words into my mouth, and look elsewhere for your straw men.
What tightening the rules does is ensure there is little room for accusations of fraud or malfeasence. It allows the process to become above trivial accusations.
Oh, come now. The guy who believes that nonpartisan, largely volunteer election workers under a system of checks and counter-checks cannot be trusted, thinks that tigher election rules will keep the a well-funded partisan body with a stake in the outcome and a history of succh accusations (hint: the GOP) from yelling “fraud?” Wow, not only is that statement logically inconsistent with nearly all of your post, your willing naivete’ or shameless attempt at whitewash very nearly beggars belief.
Meanwhile, in real news….
Crips Founder Williams Denied Clemency
Mark,
I dunno, i might go w/ Roger. At lease we could weed out the dead, the zombies, that the Dems rely on :)
If Republicans insist on doing away with duplication and enhancement, then Democrats must insist on doing away with Opti-scan ballots. The optical machines are too prone to mechanical malfunction. What we should do is go back to simple paper ballots that voters mark by putting a large “X” in a box. Big boxes and big type, not tiny ovals that require the finger dexterity of a world-class violinist to fill out. Then count them by hand. If it takes six weeks to find out who won the election, so what? If it costs taxpayers more to hand count every ballot, so what? Getting an accurate count is more important than getting a fast count or a cheap count. We simply should not be using machines to record or count or votes, period! Machines can break down or be tampered with. The only foolproof ballot is the hand counted paper ballot. If Republicans won’t play ball with the necessary and accepted methods of counting machine ballots, then there is no alternative but to conduct our elections the hard way.
54.
I assume you mean 1/2, and that half would be Republicans who favored Rossi. That wasn’t the last election, but probably the last one anyone but the candidates cared about.
But, if the ballots King County misplaced before the recount had been thrown into the mix on election day, Rossi would never have been ahead.
56
Buh-bye, Tookie. Don’t let the gates of Hell hit your ass on your way out of this world.
sven @ 50
Stefan violated the rules he agreed to; end of story.
righton @ 57
name one
20
“Every time a democrat complains that attempts to impose standards hurts them specifically, they imply that the democrats could not win if the elctions were fair.”
Oh, bullshit! The standards and practices have been in place for a long time, and they are sound. It’s the Republicans who wanted to change the rules in the middle of the counting.
PRR – I have a feeling Williams is going to be put to death tonight. I doubt whether Gov. S. will intervene.
Voter Advocate
Not in King County…
If people can’t figure out how to mark a ballot then it should be tossed. Frankly if they can’t mark it right then they are obviously not smart enough to make an informed vote.
Seeking the truth
People who aren’t smart enough to vote Democrat should have their ballots tossed. See how that works? I am sure we could get that through a Democratic legislature.
52,
Yea, I agree he tried to hard to convince the guy. I just read the full transcript. What he should have done is mark the ballot as he was required to and moved on.
But he never refuesed to allow him a provsional ballot.
Hey Tookie — Jesus died on the Cross for your sins. Accept Him as your Savior and you will not go to Hell. Even a murdering bastard like you can get the Lord’s mercy.
sven@68
I just don’t think election workers should be convincing people not to vote…
52,
Re my moderate status.
I fail to see how my stating my wanting elections with a system in place to ensure they have a sense of integrity is a GOP line?
UNless you are suggesting that democracts care more about participatoin then they do integrity.
This is a topic I simply cannot understand why ther eis not bipartisan consensus to eliminate the bs associated with the elections.
My dislike of the KC electoins board is their inconsistent application of law and standard, and their consistent refusal to address it on a factual basis, instead retreating to partisan accusations and slogans.
Your statements about the GOP are just mopre rhetoric, amrkign you as a partisan. I am not defending the republicans, I am criticising the elections system that has too many inconsistent standards and loopholes that make cheating easy.
My vote is dilluted when anyone cheats. I am defending my franchise.
@69
Holy crap rabbit.
I agree with you 100%
sven:
lemme put it this way; you’re buying rhetoric that problems exist where they don’t.
I never claimed I wasn’t partisan. But I value the truth over my politics. In fact, I have made it a point of pride that I”m partisan, and honest enough to admit it. This came up a few threads back. Its a classic trick… They’ve convinced alot of people that the right-wing lies are centerist truth… Its depressing to me that so many otherwise smart people believe it.
sven
I think it has been shown that KC is in line with the other Washington counties regarding their more often than not, if not nearly always.
…the elections system…make(s) cheating easy…”
Really? Who’s been cheating? I am not aware of any rampant fraud, just loud and insistent shouts from teh GOP that have not as yet turned up any “cheating,” only a few honest mistakes and four felons voting for Rossi.
Crap…another unclosed tag…
Windie
I think we should discourage illegals from voting, and legals from double voting
We should hand count every vote in the U.S. and dispense with themachines entirely.
righton
name one
Why would Sims and Logan continue to support a voting system that requires so much manual invervention? How is this a model election? The “progressive” thing to do would be to develop a system that prevents the need for manual invervention of 1 in 12 ballots on the back end.
Does anyone have any idea how accurate they are determining voter intent? Are they right 99% of the time? – not good enough.
Being correct 99.97% of the time could have resulted in a different Governor in the 2004 election.
Daddy Love,
I’m sorry, that’s not a convincing argument.
The Dead and felon voting issues were such a monir part of the whole election dispute.
How about all the provisionall ballatos that were run through machines?
During this election, I lived around the corner from one of the voting sites. Tere were volunteers from moveon.org ringing doorbells and talking peole into coming down to the poll sites to vote.
While I am sure there are many arguments on this but you’ve got well meaning people bringing people to the polls to fill out provisional ballotts, poll workers erroneously running these ballotts through the machines and suddenly there are what? Something like 1,700 “extra” ballotts in the elections.
As a follow up. Simms own panel recommends that Logan disspear for a while or permanently to restore the voters trust and nothing was done about him.
daddy love
I can’t name any robbery victems either, but i do know people get robbed a lot on 1st avenue… do i need to provide a name to KNOW its unsafe there at certain times.
If you’re own elections dept could track voters and ballots we’d have no reason to assume tomfoolery.
What analyst has said things are oK?
Daddy,
Sven.
Then I must say it is great to have fair, unbiased you here to set us all straight.
Just here to help.
Goldy did make a vague and broad statement about “all” prosed GOP reform disenfranchising ~250k voters, but his post was ands is specifcally about duplication, affecting 113000 votes, ALL of which were legal under current law. So you should know that ~I~ am not talking about that 250K votes but rather about the 113K duplicated ballots. I’ll ignore your comments that assume otherwise.
Noted.
THIS is not clear? I beg to differ.
(snipped for brevity)
I will go back and read the rcw in question and comment later. What concerns me is the validation process, and I may be wrong. I will withold comment till I am sure.
The entire concept of voter intent is too subjective to be applied properly.
It is applied the only way it can be, by the decisions of humans, backed up by the bipartisan scrutny of other humans PLUS the cnavassing board. Maybe it’s an “original sin” thing with you. That is, you don’t trust humans no matter what. I go by Jimmy Carter’s old rule “trust, but verify.”
On its face the whole concept of *intent* is flawed because you cannot always determine accurately someons intent.
And I repeat again, there has been evidence clearly demonstrated not just here, but in Florida in 2000 that intent is not always clear. That’s why i think it is a slipperly slope unless it is clear and obvious. But I noted during thr 2004 several times the intent was determiend right along party lines of the determining people. Thats bothers me.
Huh? Gee what if the most serious of voters mae a mistake anyway?
Gee, what happens when you get an answer wrong on a test? Or may bew several? You fail. But I knew the answer, I just marked it wrong? Well, too bad, Shit happens. Sometimes mistakes cannot be fixed, and in those times it is a reminder to the people that actions have consequences, such as having your vote disqualified if you fill it out improperly or dont read directions. The state cannot always come behind and fix it. The whole notion of this nanny state mentality takes personaly responsibility and chucks it out a window.
Registration is a prime example. I moved to king county in 2002 and assumed my registration would be transfered from Snohomish when we did our registration. I was wrong. I called the election office, I downloaded the forms and drove there on a saturday to turn our forms in so my wife and I could vote, on the deadline day. I did my homework, found the problem and fixed it. I read the directions. I followed them, even verifying it via phone first when I had questions. I expect no more or less from any other voter.
It is the State’s responsibility to ensure as many as possible of that those with a legal right to vote can and do.
It is not the state’s (or county’s) job to bend or ignore rules to allow people to vote under questionable circumstances. It destroys the integrity.
It is not and should not be the State’s reponsibility to imnpose ever-more-burdensome restrictions on our most precious franchise. But perhaps that is the difference between us.
Ok, so to be fair, what in this do you consider burdensome restrictions. I think we are talkign past each other here, so please tell me where you see this as obstructive?
Dear, dear, you poor little unbiased slip seems to be showing. Take a random sample of young, elderly, and poor voters in heavily populated King County. What do YOU think–majority Democrat? Very likely. That’s all I meant, and that’s DEFINITELY all I said. Don’t put words into my mouth, and look elsewhere for your straw men.
I am not making a strawman. You raised the accusation that the GOP was deliberately targeting poor, elderly and uneducated.
Oh, come now. The guy who believes that nonpartisan, largely volunteer election workers under a system of checks and counter-checks cannot be trusted,
Sorry, i saw too many examples of partisan decisions, to accept that on its face.
…thinks that tigher election rules will keep the a well-funded partisan body with a stake in the outcome and a history of such accusations (hint: the GOP) from yelling “fraud?” Wow, not only is that statement logically inconsistent with nearly all of your post, your willing naivete’ or shameless attempt at whitewash very nearly beggars belief.
If the rules exist with specific guides, and there is less waffle room, there is less chance there can be people claiming there are partisan leanings in the decisions.
Its simple logic.
And i note that your comment ignores the more then ample history of Democratic fraud.
What i propose and call for is to prevent all sides from cheating.
Where exactly is the fault in that?
Daddy @ 65
I guess Rossi would have been ahead at the first certification, but not the machine recount.
There were about 900 ballots discovered after the machine recount. If they had been there all the time, the margin at first would have been about 100 votes, and the machine recount would have gone to Gregoire.
So the fraud here is that some Republican operative in the KC elections department hid those ballots!
Windie @ 70. I agree.
Actually, the felon and persons who voted more than once were mostly Republicans.
prr @ 80
the vast majority of misfed provisionals were validated.
Windie @73
I dont buy that really. The flaws in the system are apparent.
I have no problem in removing them.
As I said, I want fairness across the board, and I do not have confidence in the present system and according to polls, so do about 70% of the people.
@ 74
The judge in the Court case ruled there were 1800+ illegal votes.
Thats cheating.
It doesnt matter who they voted for, which we cannot prove.
It matters that the system is flawed and needs to be fixed.
@86
Torridjoe
Do you have a link tat shows the amount that werevalidated?
I don’t get left wing defense of our system…
Unless perhaps you recognize it as a valuable ally….?
sven @ 88
no, it’s not “cheating.” Cheating suggests that there was an intent to cast a ballot illegally in order to unduly influence the election. Felons voting because they thought they could, is hardly “cheating.”
I agree that the system for deciding when they can vote is flawed, however. They should have their rights automatically restored once they are paroled. Further, there should be one registrant database tracking those registrations. Luckily for WA that database is coming online next year.
85
Your proof is where?
I am dying to see it so we can end this argument and all go home secure in the truth.
Anxiously awaiting proof….but since the court could not determine that, i am guessing you are referrign to the couple of verifiable ones there were….
When you get Miss Cleo to figure out the rest of the 1800+, enlighten us…..
October 30, 2004
I’m tipping back my 3rd 40 of the night and I decide it’s time to fill out my ballot. I get to the Gov. race and I’m a little buzzed now and not sure who to vote for. I’m thinking maybe I’ll vote for the Rossi dude, but I’m not sure yet so I circle his name so I don’t forget to come back to it. Later, I crack open another 40 and come back to the Gov race and decide I don’t like either one. What will I do now? Shouldn’t be a problem, the instructions say to fill in the oval to vote. I haven’t filled in the oval so I didn’t vote for either candidate, right?
Did Logan properly determine my intent?
prr @ 89
I’ll even give it to you from a wingnut source:
County elections spokeswoman Bobbie Egan said Wednesday that 87 percent of the 31,545 provisional ballots issued in King County had been validated and included in the official count.
Torrid,
Thanks, I was askinga serious question.
91,
You’re right the word cheating is loaded.
But illegal votes is hardly beterr. In this case, the state defended itself agaisnt accusations it was criminally negligent in not screening the process to protect the integrity of the election.
No one will ever answer for it, because no one in the county office cares. Every press conference proves it.
As for felons, I say no. I think there should be a reastoral process.
What you are suggesting will create more gridlock in an already messed up system.
A guy gets paroled. He can vote now. ooops his parole is revoked. now they have to revoke it. Etc, ad naseum.
Parole is a transitory status. They should get their rights returned when their parole is over.
Vover advocate
You are talking about statewide, and I am and have been talking about King County. Try to rescope.
Sven,
I don’t agree, at all, on the returned voting staus.
with tat example, someone could rape and kill some little kid, plea the deal down to a lesser charge, serve like 7 years and be out to vote right along with their victims families.
sven–
How are you arguing that you remove gridlock by making the process more complex? It’s very simple: in jail? Can’t vote. Out of jail? Can vote. No other consideration needed. How is your example any different under the current system of restoration application? If they go back into the joint, the registration is no longer valid under that system as well–but under my system, no “gridlock” was necessary to restore it when they were out.
Can you explain how the counties failed to “screen the process?” Are you saying they didn’t bother to check whether people voted twice or not? I dispute that allegation.
My God, RR has envoked the name of Jesus!
Well A Mery Merry Christmas to you and yours ya wabbit!
Sven,
On its face the whole concept of *intent* is flawed because you cannot always determine accurately someons intent.
The fact you mention does NOT mean that the whole concept is fplawed. This is one of the weaknesses of the GOP argument, and apparently of yours as well, It is a logical fallacy of improper induction (also know as “fallacy of insufficient sample”, “fallacy of the lonely fact”, etc.). You infer from one or a few examples that your conclusion is true of an entire class of events. Roger Rabbit explained the process well. Intent is GENERALLY clear. WHen there is ANY question reamining after the two or more election workers AND the partisan election watchers have conferred, the canvassing board makes a determination. If the intent truly cannot be determined the vote is not counted. I don’t see what is wrong with that. There are many checks and balances.
what in this do you consider burdensome restrictions?
I consider changing state law to disallow ballots from being duplicated when voter intent is clear to be unduly burdensome. How’s that?
You raised the accusation that the GOP was deliberately targeting poor, elderly and uneducated.
I misspoke in one way: I’d say “poor” and not “poorly educated.” I think there are many poorly educated GOP voters. But otherwise yes, I did say that. But this does not insult the voters, as you claim.
what happens when you get an answer wrong on a test? Or may bew several? You fail.
Jesus, THIS IS NOT A TEST. And it’s not SUPPOSED to be a test. You think it’s a “nanny state,” but on your side it’s big stern Daddy wanting to punish whoever steps out of line.
i saw too many examples of partisan decisions, to accept that on its face.
See above under logical fallacies.
sven @ 88
Weren’t those registrations and not votes?
if there were 1800 illegal votes, i would assume you would agree that someon screwed up?
By not screening the process, i mean that the counties are negligent in failing to prevent illegal votes.
That is a mtter of court finding, it is not in dispute.
How to fix it, that is where the dispute comes.
And no, I dont think just being out of jail makes a person entitled to vote. Sorry, maybe I am biased, but i dont think people who commit criminal acts against society should automatically be allowed to vote.
101
Yes, but the system is interlaced. an illegally registed person who votes has cast an illegal vote. It doesn’t even matter as to motivation. A person who regsiters and makes a mistake is still not legally registered, therefore their vote is illegal. Not criminal.
There are two ways to keep votes legal and the system integral:
Make sure that the registrations are legal.
Makes sure only those who are legally registered vote.
How simple is that?
My 2 cents
Shouldn’t be a problem, the instructions say to fill in the oval to vote. I haven’t filled in the oval so I didn’t vote for either candidate, right? Did Logan properly determine my intent?
First, your right to vote is not determioned by your sobriety or lack thereof. Drink away, brother.
Second, If you follow the instructions, I believe they tell you to put an ‘X’ through the vote you do NOT want counted. But you’re drunk so I forgive you.
I imagine you’re saying that this would count as a vote for Rossi. It could. So you think because you cvan think up a scenario nder which intent might be misleading, without knowing if this had ever happened or not, we should change state law to disallow the votes of those whose intent CAN be correctly determined? Hmmm, I can’t say I go along.
sven,
But NO court determined that there were 1800+ illegal votes. Just try to state these things accurately.
Wabbit @ 48
I said I was in favor of allowing absentee ballots to qualified Washington voters who are physically outside the state for legitimate reasons. Like if someone is in the military service, government civil service, attending educational institution, or residing abroard with their last residence in Washington.
If someone lives here, but travels outside the state a lot, then they should be allowed to vote early — just like many other states allow. Just because someone works on a flight crew for Southwest Airlines, doesn’t mean she should get her absentee ballot mailed to a post office box in Dallas for every election. Nor should a commercial fisherman get his absentee ballot mailed to a post office box in Kodiak for every election.
Daddy
Gregoire was always ahead in King County, the election results were most altered by those missing ballots that were counted in the manual recount, although Gregoire won without them.
sven @ 102
I might agree that someone screwed up, yes. For the most part it would be the people voting who had not attempted to restore their voting rights. The rest of the blame would be a statewide failure to create a single database in which rights revocations would feed a central listing. Of course, the fact that this single database didn’t exist for 2004 can be blamed on those Republicans in the legislature who delayed its release.
You say “by not screening the process,” which I don’t understand. Which county did NOT “screen the process” by faithfully revoking voting rights for those persons whose convictions were passed on to them by the courts? Without information as to whether their residents have been convicted of a crime, are you suggesting that county elections staffers divine the information by some method of ESP? There is no court finding of negligence in this area; sorry, you are wrong.
As for “people who commit criminal acts against society” being “automatically be allowed to vote,” they’re not. They have to serve their sentence first. After that, what’s your substantive beef?
106
A charming, old-fashioned idea, that.
Washington will be 100% vote-by-mail by 2010.
BTW, I want to invite all of you here grousing about the ills of King County elections to join the over 3500 temporary workers who get the elections done.
You can be an poll judge, validate signatures, open envelopes, duplicate ballots …
Come on down! See if you can game the system — you can’t. It’s impartial and honest, even though errors occur.
Come make the process better. Or sit on your butt and write misinformed messages istead. The choice is yours.
Daddy,
Sven,
The fact you mention does NOT mean that the whole concept is fplawed. This is one of the weaknesses of the GOP argument, and apparently of yours as well, It is a logical fallacy of improper induction (also know as “fallacy of insufficient sample”, “fallacy of the lonely fact”, etc.). You infer from one or a few examples that your conclusion is true of an entire class of events. Roger Rabbit explained the process well. Intent is GENERALLY clear. WHen there is ANY question reamining after the two or more election workers AND the partisan election watchers have conferred, the canvassing board makes a determination. If the intent truly cannot be determined the vote is not counted. I don’t see what is wrong with that. There are many checks and balances.
I dont know how else to say it, but the problem has so many elements that rely on human opinion. Look at the signature verification process. Relying on that is something that should be left to experts.
I think there must be a better process without so many points of failure.
Maybe thats my idealism.
I consider changing state law to disallow ballots from being duplicated when voter intent is clear to be unduly burdensome. How’s that?
I can live with that, as long as we can agree on what clear intent is, and make a guidline to be followed in that detemrination. Maybe that exists, but I have seen reports of enough variations that i dont think so.
Would you agree there has to be a point where you have to give up?
And is that the only thinkg you object to?
I misspoke in one way: I’d say “poor” and not “poorly educated.” I think there are many poorly educated GOP voters. But otherwise yes, I did say that. But this does not insult the voters, as you claim.
Maybe that is perception. The argument logic seems to be that if a voter makes a mistake because they are poorly educated, and te republicans want those mistakes invalidated, then the democrats accuse them a deliberate target agaisnt uneducated people, which inplies that they must think they will gain votes thusly, and at the apoint the presumption enters in that most of those mistakes must be from democrats or they wouldnt bother, which implies democrats are less educated then republicans or at least more prone to mistakes. I
My problem here is that I hate overgeneralizations.
And note I ignore the whole aspect of deliberate fraud. I will stay on the same level with you that most of these are innocent mistakes.
what happens when you get an answer wrong on a test? Or may bew several? You fail.
Jesus, THIS IS NOT A TEST. And it’s not SUPPOSED to be a test. You think it’s a “nanny state,” but on your side it’s big stern Daddy wanting to punish whoever steps out of line.
No, its a fair state that say sometime when you screw up, you have to deal with it. Sorry, thats how life is.
see above under logical fallacies.
Representative examples do not always become logical fallicies.
So i asusme when you see survey results like this:
Are you confident that Washington has overcome the problems that hindered the 2004 Election and that there will be no problems with the 2006 Election?
Yes 15%
No 70%
Undecided 15%
Are you considering that a representative example of the majority opinion?
Joe,
I might agree that someone screwed up, yes. For the most part it would be the people voting who had not attempted to restore their voting rights. The rest of the blame would be a statewide failure to create a single database in which rights revocations would feed a central listing. Of course, the fact that this single database didn’t exist for 2004 can be blamed on those Republicans in the legislature who delayed its release.
You mean where the democrats have a majority? Nothing the republicans could do (as a generalization) would make an effective difference.
You say “by not screening the process,” which I don’t understand. Which county did NOT “screen the process” by faithfully revoking voting rights for those persons whose convictions were passed on to them by the courts? Without information as to whether their residents have been convicted of a crime, are you suggesting that county elections staffers divine the information by some method of ESP? There is no court finding of negligence in this area; sorry, you are wrong.
There was a court finding of 1800+ illegal votes. Included were some felon votes.
The facts dont lie.
And you are right, the system doesnt support a friendly or easy process there. That needs to be fixed, and may be fixed soon. But that is one one catagory of illegal votes.
As for “people who commit criminal acts against society” being “automatically be allowed to vote,” they’re not. They have to serve their sentence first. After that, what’s your substantive beef?
So once released, all sins are forgotten? All crimes are forgotten? Then why do we have a sexual predator registry?
The fact remains that society can and does place a stigma on certain people who are convicted of crimes against society.
I think denial of voting privilages is not an unfair elent of that stigma, until the person has shown some measure of desire to reneter society as a member, not a predator. That by the way, often times anyway, is the purpose of parole. Let them out early, let them prove themselves, and if they violate it, they go back.
I am simple pointing out how the system already advocates it.
So let’s be honest about what you are arguing for Goldstein.
You want to make it as easy as possible to vote, and to make it as easy as possible even for the ineligble. You want situations like what happened in 2004 here to happen again and again. You want the record keeping of ballots to be sloppy. You want noncitizens to vote. You want nonresidents to vote. You want those who do not register with a proper address to be able to vote.
To you, voting is a loose polling process that should strive to take the day-of-election-political-temperature of those physically in the state, or who feel like influencing our election by mail, regardless of whether they are actually valid voters or residents.
Hey, keep running with this story because it does not resonate with the mainstream. There are a lot of moderates in this state. Secular Republicans, Christian Democrats, etc. and they are simply not going to buy your argument that we are better off without basic reforms to gaurantee some integrity in our elections.
And don’t kid yourself that every close election has gone to the Democrat. Reforms will ultimately be just as fair to Democrats as Republicans because you can’t predict which party will be in power, or if there is an entirely new party 100 years from now.
53
“And 98.4% of Dem votes.”
Rather than say “bullshit,” I’ll simply invite the readers of this or any other political blog to compare the postings of Republicans and Democrats, and see for themselves who can’t spell or use correct grammar.
My own experience has been that poor spelling, inappropriate word usage, and sloppy grammar tend to be strikingly notable characteristics of Republican posters, in all forums I’ve visited.
There are, of course, some exceptions. For example, Richard Pope (who is a lawyer) exhibits English competency in his HA postings — although he’s not right about very much else.
He’s not left about very much, either.
(The first pun was not intended; the second one was.)
54
bullshit
Oh I have lots of typos Roger, tho I am not a republican.
But in my case its because im too lazy to proof read and rely on spell checks too much in my job.
I was however smart enough to read my registration form and fill it out properly, and likewise I read my ballot instructions and filled it out properly.
And neither of those had a spell check. Just clearly written instructions.
@90:
I don’t get left wing defense of our system…
Unless perhaps you recognize it as a valuable ally….?
The current system is called democracy, and yes, we do consider it a valuable ally.
sven @ 113
I don’t believe the Democrats were in the majority in both houses in WA before the 2004 elections. My understanding is that the GOP controlled the state Senate during the period when the database requirement was passed.
You and I agree there was a court finding of ~1800 votes. I’m just waiting for you to show where a finding of negligence was made. The facts do NOT lie; I agree. So pony up where the counties were named as negligently allowing those votes to count, and I’ll shut up.
“Once released, all sins are forgotten?” Well, they’re supposed to be. That’s the whole point of a defined term of imprisonment. Your payment to society for the crime you committed is to be imprisoned for a certain period. After that, you’re done. Why does WA have a sexual predator registry? Well, that’s a good question. I frankly don’t believe the constitution allows it, since it’s punishment on top of punishment. You say society places a stigma on those folks; I agree. My question to you was WHY you think there should be a stigma. You haven’t really responded.
As for “some measure of desire to re-enter society”…how about, um, showing interest in political governance by VOTING IN ELECTIONS?
R – Take your meds.
71
“I fail to see how my stating my wanting elections with a system in place to ensure they have a sense of integrity is a GOP line?”
I take it, then, you support vigorous enforcement of the permanent restraining order against the Republican National Committee issued in DNC v. RNC, Civ. Action No. 81-3876, U.S. Dist. Ct. of NJ?
who is “John McDonald” and why does he think he’s so important?
The registry thing is a funny case. It should probably be unconstitutional, but nobody’s gonna overturn it because then they’d be ‘pro-child abusers’… and thats a good way to get a house burned down.
If you’ve served your time you should have served your time. If someone is still a threat, why are we releasing them? And further, if they’re not a threat, why are we denying them their rights?
(/rant off)
Sven
Representative examples do not always become logical fallicies.
Faslely asusming that the examples you come in cotnact with are representative, is.
So i asusme when you see survey results like this:
Are you confident that Washington has overcome the problems that hindered the 2004 Election and that there will be no problems with the 2006 Election?
Yes 15%
No 70%
Undecided 15%
Are you considering that a representative example of the majority opinion?
WHen I see survey results like that, I consider how large the sample is, how it was obtained, the margin of error, and how the questions are worded. I know nothing of this sample and therefore cannot have an opinion as to whether the reuslt can be extrapolated to the general public, but the question itself is worded such that someone who thinks that the elections will probably be better could still easily answer “No.”
Are they “confident” or do they merely have a feeling?
The question ends with an absolute. Do ~I~ think there will be NO problems with the 2006 elections? Fuck no. There will be probably one problem, don’t you think? But I think that by and large the election will be fair and to the extent possible the voters’ intents will be respected and their votes counted.
Sven pontificates on sex offender voting:
I think denial of voting privilages is not an unfair elent of that stigma…
There can be only ONE reason behind this assertion–the belief that there is a “reasonable predisposition” to repeat the offense. Closely followed by a “reasonable” inference of guilty until proven innocent. Thus the basic concept of our current jurisprudence, built up so painfully over the last several hundred years, is turned upside down to satisfy personal predjudice.
Way to go, buddy.
79
“Does anyone have any idea how accurate they are determining voter intent? Are they right 99% of the time? – not good enough.
Being correct 99.97% of the time could have resulted in a different Governor in the 2004 election.”
You are spewing GOP bullshit. Do you even know how many ballots the King County canvassing board reviewed in 2004 to determine voter intent? The answer is approximately 1,600; therefore, a 1% error rate equals only 16 votes, whereas Gregoire won by 133 votes.
But the fact is, the vast majority of canvassing board decisions were unanimous (with the Republican member voting with the two Democrats on the board), so a 1% error rate in the split decisions would result in a tallying error of 1 or 2 votes.
The claim by GOP partisans like you that Rossi was robbed of the election in King County is pure, unadulterated bullshit. How do you know Rossi didn’t benefit from the errors that occurred?
As general information, of the 899,199 ballots cast in King County in the 2004 election, 4,902 ballots were duplicated and 55,177 ballots were enhanced.
Svewn @ 113:
What happens when u get an answer wrong on a test? Well, back in college, they always said “show your work, so I can see if u understood the concept” and for that you’d get partial (or even full) credit.
This goes to the concept of intent. Even college edumacated people were assumed to make small clerical mistakes, and the professor did not want to unfairly penalize people who really did know the subject matter. Why should voting be any different, especially as the concept of “intent” is specifically in the law? What is your beef with that? The review process is too subjective? Puleeze, that’s been shown to be a canard, there are too many checks and balances for that kind of fraud to exist. Asked and answered s the lawyers say.
90
“I don’t get left wing defense of our system…”
That system has been used in our state for decades, idiot, and your side hasn’t complained about it until now.
We held an election. Your guy lost. Get over it. Move on.
93
The canvassing board aren’t mind readers, dolt. If that’s how you mark your ballot, and you send it in that way, you take your fucking chances. If the canvassing board thinks you voted for Rossi, that’s your fault, not theirs. BTW, anybody who fills out his ballot after downing in excess of 120 oz. of malt liquor is far more likely to be a Rossi voter than a Gregoire voter. LOL!
Come to think of it, if you’re gonna vote for Rossi, it helps to get drunk first.
This is the same crowd who voted for the mother beater.
And their ilk over in Spokane voted against recalling Mayor West.
They must have killed a lot of brain cells with alcohol before they filled out their ballots.
98, 99
prr — Name one child killer in our state who got out after 7 years. That’s bullshit and you know it.
But I understand what you’re saying. Some child molesters do get out of jail. If you don’t want them voting, then lobby to change the laws so child molesters stay locked up for the rest of their lives. I’ll sign on for that.
We have way too many Level 2 and Level 3 sex offenders living in our neighborhoods. According to news reports, there were 52 of them living within a mile of the home of that missing Tacoma girl. 1 is too many. If you want to support a law that says Level 2 or 3 sex offenders go away for life, I’ll sign on for that. Sex predators should never get out of jail. Never ever.
Joe,
I don’t believe the Democrats were in the majority in both houses in WA before the 2004 elections. My understanding is that the GOP controlled the state Senate during the period when the database requirement was passed.
You may be right. And I dont know about the spcific issue, so i will research and come back on that.
You and I agree there was a court finding of ~1800 votes. I’m just waiting for you to show where a finding of negligence was made. The facts do NOT lie; I agree. So pony up where the counties were named as negligently allowing those votes to count, and I’ll shut up.
Maybe we are hangin up on the meaning of negligent. To me, if there were processes in place to catch the mistakes, there was negligence. If that doesnt jive without your understanding I apologize. I am not claiming, as many republicans did willful misconduct, malfeasance or Misfeasance. I am saying I dont think enough people were doing their jobs right, and that allowed some illegal votes in.
I also think some of the laws, to be fair, are poorly written. But at the same time, i think interpretatoins of those laws were made to allow votes that were unlawful
The question remains on whether we demand an optimistic or pessimistic filter on interpretation of ambigious laws. One camp says “when in doubt allow”, the other “when in doubt deny”.
I think that alone can be settled by a specification odf some of the laws to include that standard. mAybe that does exist in some cases, but not all.
But a blanket policy of allow unless overwhelming evidence against is produced is a bit naive, as it opens the door to allow people to commit fraud. Likewise the opposite would be too cynical. Somewher ein the middle has to be a happy medium that protects the integrity of the system, but does not raise to stern of a standard.
In my opinion, we are not there yet. King County has instituted a policy that is far too forgiving and naive.
“Once released, all sins are forgotten?” Well, they’re supposed to be. That’s the whole point of a defined term of imprisonment. Your payment to society for the crime you committed is to be imprisoned for a certain period. After that, you’re done.
Then why maintain criminal records? Why a 3 strikes policy?
Why parole in the first place. parole is a conditional release against good behavior, subject to monitoring of a law enforcement official?
Because the reality of criminals is that many repeat or reoffend. Recidivism is a bad issue. Historically it has been
Because serving a sentence is a passive action, all they have to do is be there. Sure, good behavior may mean early release, but aside from the most serious, minimum behavior means eventual release. I wasnt able to find current stats but I was seeing rates as high as 2/3 of those released being arrested within 3 years, and 49% of those released being convicted within 3 years.
it does not ensure any manner of rehabilitation.
Why does WA have a sexual predator registry? Well, that’s a good question. I frankly don’t believe the constitution allows it, since it’s punishment on top of punishment.
I believe like the three strikes laws, the courts have upheld the legality of registries. I agree they are unfair. So is raping a child. I would prefer to err on the side of the victim.
You say society places a stigma on those folks; I agree. My question to you was WHY you think there should be a stigma. You haven’t really responded.
Because I personally consider voting to be a mainstay of social responsiblity. I consider felony criminals to have abused and attack society. I think they have lost that right until they demonstrate their willingness to reenter society in a lawful and responsible fashion.
Hey look at the bright side, I am not nearly as extreme as Heinlein was. Go read Starship troopers to see someone who is harsh.
As for “some measure of desire to re-enter society”…how about, um, showing interest in political governance by VOTING IN ELECTIONS?
Sorry, desire is not sufficient. Illegal aliens *want* to participate. They cannot. Children *want* to vote. They cannot.
Shouldn’t he also show that he has paid full restitution for his crimes, including victim compensation, and shown that he has taken full accountability for his crime up to and including demonstarting that by living lawfully for a demonstratable period of time?
100
Same to you, GS.
What I don’t understand is, if a lowly 9 3/8-lb. bunny with pink ears and a cute cottontail can live by Christian precepts, why is it so hard humans?
107
I don’t agree with you, Richard. A fisherman who lives in Seattle and spends months at a time away from home, working in one of the world’s most dangerous occupations, to put fresh seafood on your table deserves to vote as much as you do. Maybe more.
John @114
“You want to make it as easy as possible to vote, and to make it as easy as possible even for the ineligble. You want situations like what happened in 2004 here to happen again and again. You want the record keeping of ballots to be sloppy. You want noncitizens to vote. You want nonresidents to vote. You want those who do not register with a proper address to be able to vote.
To you, voting is a loose polling process that should strive to take the day-of-election-political-temperature of those physically in the state, or who feel like influencing our election by mail, regardless of whether they are actually valid voters or residents.
Hey, keep running with this story because it does not resonate with the mainstream. There are a lot of moderates in this state. Secular Republicans, Christian Democrats, etc. and they are simply not going to buy your argument that we are better off without basic reforms to gaurantee some integrity in our elections. “
Just like a conservative: Keep saying the lies or your interpretation of events, and they’ll believe it. Where did you get all this stuff about Goldy wanting to register ineligible voters? Methinks you are projecting your fears a bit in order to put fear into the voting public.
Your assumption nthat the voting public is more afraid of fraud than disenfranchisement is pitiful. I can smell your flop sweat from here. I believe very few people are afraid of massive institutional voting fraud by Democrats (or at least,they shouldn’t be, as generally the Dems have done very badly in the last few elections). And the fact that your “reforms” would tilt the balance in favor of the GOP has nothing to do with your position, right? Tell you what I AM afraid of: Institutional disenfranchisement of large groups of people. Why the latter and not the former? Because, generally, individuals engaged in voting fraud probably would not tip the scales, where as the denying people a right to vote because of punctilio could (in a totalitarion dictatorship, say, like the one we are heading for now.)
“Basic reforms” would mean making sure every eligible voter in every state has the same chance to vote, wouldn’t it? Well, I don’t see the GOP pulling for that one (See stories on Ohio heavily democratic districts being woefully understaffed). Or, better yet, let’s get a law on the books that says a voting machine manufacturer (Diebold) cannot contribute to a political party or campaign.
There is a word for what you want to do John: Manipulating the political process so your party will have an permanent advantage is called gerrymandering. You should sit down and think more about what’s fair (especially since these laws will affect all equally, and you may be on the other side of the coin later), instead of what will get your guy elected.
Bob,
Actually I was referring to any felon.
There can be only ONE reason behind this assertion–the belief that there is a “reasonable predisposition” to repeat the offense.
Its called recidivism, and its a fact.
Closely followed by a “reasonable” inference of guilty until proven innocent.
Not so. I have accused them of nothing, i have said they were guilty and are serving their sentance. Thats stigma comes as a part of it, its called a consequence. It can be conquered by showing proof of desire to no longer be a criminal, but paying restitution, accepting accountability and living withing the confines of the law through and beyond a period of parole.
Thus the basic concept of our current jurisprudence, built up so painfully over the last several hundred years, is turned upside down to satisfy personal predjudice.
Sure bob. We’ll let all the child molesters live in your neighborhood….if you think they are innocent, you wont mind, right?
110
Roger Rabbit is already a poll worker. So is Mrs. Roger Rabbit. You’re right, you can’t game the system. The game playing doesn’t occur at polling places or MBOS … it occurs in the back offices of WSRP where Vance and his minions dream up their smear campaigns.
141
Of course it does.
112
Yeah, well, according to the latest polling data 2/3rds of the American people believe Iraq was behind 9/11. A lot of people are stupid. If you lie to them, they might believe you. The GOP is good at lying (but not good at running a country).
sven: Lets say they’re child abusers. Lets even say that they’re likely to commit again.
what does that have to do with how they’re going to vote?
Sex offenders are a nice example to get people all worked up, but seriously. The whole idea of disenfranchising felons is nonsensical at best. Theres no reason to believe that being convicted of a crime makes you incapable of voting correctly.
As to your other emotionmongering… Again, if they’re not safe to be on the streets, get the law changed so they’re put away for life! Its really not that hard
Sure bob. We’ll let all the child molesters live in your neighborhood….if you think they are innocent, you wont mind, right?
Let them or force them, eh Sven? So much for freedom. So much for moral bravery. Why are you so against the former and so lacking in the latter?
Many reformed drunks fall off the wagon (recidivism). By your reasoning they should have the “stigma” of “drunk” attached to them forever, and George Bush should definitely be so stigmatized, and perhaps not allowed to hold political office for fear of lapsed judgement. But your stigmas go only one way–reinforcing your own particular predjudices.
BOB,
Your showing ignorance here.
A true alcoholic will tell you flat out that he will never not be one, there is no *cure*. He is in a perpetual state of recovery. I have two in my family, want to ask them?
They have to make responsible choices and stay away from it. Or they fall off the wagon.
And as far as pedophiles, whether we like it or not, they do reoofend, at a disturbingly high rate.
If an alchoholic reoffends, the primary victim is himself.
if a pedophile reoofends the primary victim is a child.
Alcoholism is not a crime, only actions taken while under the influence.
Pedophilia is a crime.
Until we learn to deal with them better, I dont want them around my children.
Sorry, big difference.
142
Yes, of course it does. Vance Can’t Dance is another in a long line of dirty tricksters, starting with Donald Sagretti, who corrupt our voting with outrageous charges and deeds. It continued with Lee Atwater and reaches a present day simmering bile stew with Karl Rove.
Just as Rove bugged his own office, Vance generates baseless smears.
Rog sez:
Buh-bye, Tookie. Don’t let the gates of Hell hit your ass on your way out of this world.
Comment by Roger Rabbit— 12/12/05 @ 12:54 pm”
We can only hope Tookie has truly confessed and repented for those heinous murders he committed. Salvation is all any of us really have….isn’t it Rog?
143,
right Bush lied, I forgot that one.
Democrats paint the war as being awful, going bad and country in bad shape.
71% percent of Iraqs think their country is in better shape.
60% feel safe
61% say security is good
75% have faith in the elections
57% support democracy
70% want to unify Iraq
I guess Bush lied to them too.
for the record, child abuse is a crime… since we’re being so precise and all ;0
sven: Lets say they’re child abusers. Lets even say that they’re likely to commit again.
what does that have to do with how they’re going to vote?
Nothing. I dont care how they vote, I care whether they are acting in a responsible fashion for society, and should have the right to vote.
Sex offenders are a nice example to get people all worked up, but seriously. The whole idea of disenfranchising felons is nonsensical at best. Theres no reason to believe that being convicted of a crime makes you incapable of voting correctly.
First, i used sex offenders not as an example of felons who cannot vote, but as an example of the social stigma people place on criminal behavior, as it relates to prison sentences and release.
Regardless, the practice of denying felons voting rights is common accross the country, like to the tune of 48 states. The felons here should be grateful, in Florida it is practically a lifetime ban, and that was just upheld by the SCOTUS.
If Felons wanna vote, they can go to Maine or Vermont.
As to the permanent bans, no i don’t support that. I think anyone deserves a chance for redemption. I don’t think it should be automatic. I think it should be earned by their conduct and rehabilitation.
As to your other emotionmongering… Again, if they’re not safe to be on the streets, get the law changed so they’re put away for life! Its really not that hard
Dude, I am with you. I don’t want them on my street. Start a petition, I will sign it. I am tired of having hear about kids molested, or abused or killed by criminals like Joseph Duncan. He was given chance after chance to redeem himself, but the Grone family is still dead. Apparently he missed the class on *not* doing it again….
Your showing ignorance here.
The primary victim is himself? You have watched too many Ronald Reagan movies. Tell that to those who have lived with and dealt with the havoc and wreckage alcholism creates. I have experienced it personally. You are full of crap, sir.
Nonetheless the principle is valid. Go tell it on the mountain.
I dont want them around my children.
You are free to hold this feeling or opinion, but actions taken to deny those who served their sentence and the terms of their parole the right to vote or restricting where they can live is just flat wrong.
149
71% think their own lives are going well, not that the country overall is in better shape.
Saddam Hussein is a bad guy who had secret police looking up the ass of the populace. It is a good thing for Iraqis that most people’s personal freedom has improved, if they stay off the streets, that is. They’d be a lot happier if the sewage drained off and the lights came on, though.
Just for a complete picture of that poll:
“The number of Iraqis who say things are going well in their country overall is just 44 percent, far fewer than the 71 percent who say their own lives are going well. Fifty-two percent instead say the country is doing badly.”
“There’s other evidence of the United States’ increasing unpopularity: Two-thirds now oppose the presence of U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq, 14 points higher than in February 2004. Nearly six in 10 disapprove of how the United States has operated in Iraq since the war, and most of them disapprove strongly. And nearly half of Iraqis would like to see U.S. forces leave soon.”
BOB,
The primary victim is himself? You have watched too many Ronald Reagan movies.
?
Tell that to those who have lived with and dealt with the havoc and wreckage alcholism creates. I have experienced it personally. You are full of crap, sir.
My brother was an alcoholic. It alienated his chidren, cost him two marriages, and landed him jail many times. YOu deal with the fact i do have some knoweldge.
But to the point, I said primary. The first person hurt is himself. Did you miss the word?
A pedohile’s primary victim is the child, but the childs family has to deal with the trauma just like an alcoholics family has to deal with the trauma, but they are the secondary victims.
You are free to hold this feeling or opinion, but actions taken to deny those who served their sentence and the terms of their parole the right to vote or restricting where they can live is just flat wrong.
Society and the SCOTUS disagree sir.
And the people around them have rights. The Groene’s had rights.
This is real simple. If you’re too fucking stupid to fill in an oval, you’re too fucking stoopid to get a vote on public policy. Period. The fact that these people tend to vote moonbat should not be a factor.
153
“The number of Iraqis who say things are going well in their country overall is just 44 percent, far fewer than the 71 percent who say their own lives are going well. Fifty-two percent instead say the country is doing badly.”
YOu know it is an interesting poll.
The article didnt post the raw data to see how the numbers were gotten.
that info is here:
http://abcnews.go.com/images/P.....sStand.pdf
The numbers go in all kinds of directions. I frankly think that anyone can use these questions and results to pretty much prove anything they want.
But your point sir, is granted. The numbers are not all positive.
155
Your name says it all.
I think it should be pointed out that the vast majority of duplication is due to:
The voter Xing out a mistake
Stray marks in the timing areas at the sides, top and bottom of the ballot
Use of ink or pencil that the optical reader rejects
physical irregularities in the ballot — tears, warpage from dampness, ballot stock, printing errors, etc.
But even Mark the Redneck could determine what a voter who marked a ballot entirely with check marks intended.
Fry, “Tookie” Fry!! One less Democrat!!
How many Democrat votes will “Tookie” cast in 2008 if he fries tonight?? This must be “disenfranchisement”!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FUCKHEAD ROGER RABBIT @42 WHAT A BUNCH OF BULLSHIT PROVE THAT STATEMENT.AFTER 30 YEARS SERVING THIS NATION SO STUPID LAWYERS LIKE YOU CAN SPOUT BULLSHIT ON A BLOG.IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.GOT THE DRIFT COUNSELOR.
@43
Thanks, Daddy!
@59
How would you know that those 124 missing ballots were for Gregoire? The press reported that they are still sealed in their envelopes. Never to be opened and the voters never notified that their ballots weren’t counted. There has also been several more found since then too.
@68
What transcript are you referring to?
@78
Patricia A. Levesque!
Mark the Redneck @ 155
“If you’re too fucking stupid to fill in an oval, you’re too fucking stoopid to get a vote on public policy. “
That is not the law, of course, but as long as we are making up new law, how about this:
People who are too fucking stupid and dishonest to make good on their bets shouldn’t be allowed to vote.
And they should be allowed to post here either.
yo @ 158
“FUCKHEAD ROGER RABBIT @42 WHAT A BUNCH OF BULLSHIT PROVE THAT STATEMENT.AFTER 30 YEARS SERVING THIS NATION SO STUPID LAWYERS LIKE YOU CAN SPOUT BULLSHIT ON A BLOG.IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.GOT THE DRIFT COUNSELOR.”
Ooooohhh….touchy, touchy, touchy!
Roger Rabbit, I think you have hit a nerve. Somebody apparently had some “compliance issues” with their military ballots! :-)
@83
“So the fraud here is that some Republican operative in the KC elections department hid those ballots!”
You claim to work in the KC elections department and you make statements like the above?
It was Karl Rove, right?
dj fuck you thanks for playing though
To all you who waste my time aout joke bets – get off it. Tiresome and boring. Although, the trolls who are mentally light, must like it.
I have always thought this is a serious blog , not some AOL chat room for pre teens.
AND SO — despite Richard Pope and his desire to turn the clock back 30 years, absentee voting is the wave of the future.
First there is a paper trail. Real paper ballot.
Second mail ballots have increased turnout.
Third, very much more convientent for many reasons.
AND, fourth, more informed voting. Time to research the little races, compare the language of the measures and debate with household and frieneds about your vote.
Indeed, very cost effecive, 37 cents – cheaper than time and gas by any standard.
I love absentee voting. I do not know a single person who goes to the polls. Young, old, all. None stuck in the past.
Oh, it also allows you to work on campaings in the last day with out having to spend an hour getting to and from. Another plus for citizen democracy in action.
@135
“Stands up and cheers for the rabbit!!!!!!”
124
“If someone is still a threat, why are we releasing them?”
The simple answer to this question is that we incarcerate people for what they’ve done, not for what they might do.
Richard Pope @ 14
“would you support significant restrictions in absentee voting – since absentee voting tends to disenfranchise tens of thousands of people in every election, even before their ballots can be taken out of the envelope and counted.”
No…you have it exactly backward. If we eliminated absentee voting, it would disenfranchise many, many times more voters.
“2,491 voters didn’t sign their signature in the same manner that they signed their voter registration, and were rejected as signature miscompares.
450 voters forgot the sign the absentee ballot envelope at all, and of course had to be rejected.”
And…they all got a postcard and a phone call from King County pointing this out and offering them an opportunity to correct the problem.
“167 voters were caught in a real Catch-22 – King County Elections lost their voter registration signature applications. Without a signature on file to verify, their absentee ballots could not be counted no matter what. (Too bad the sanctimonious Democrats have never attempted to correct this real voter disenfranchisement problem.)”
So you claim. However, didn’t these folks also get a postcard and phone call from King County offering them a chance to correct the problem?
“So we have 2% of absentee voters who never get their votes counted because of procedural errors in signing and returning the ballot.”
Yes, but a much greater proportion would not be able to vote at all without absentee voting! So, absentee voting enfranchises many voters who otherwise would be unable to vote.
“And out of the people whose voters are counted, at least 10% of them (nearly all of the ballot duplication is from absentee votes, as opposed to poll votes) are not able to follow the very simple instructions for filling out the ovals.”
If you don’t like it, work to change the law. However, getting rid of this process, and, indeed, restricting absentee voting just disenfranchises even more voters and further erode the integrity of our elections.
@152
They can live in my neighborhood after they are castrated……..not one second before!
148
“We can only hope Tookie has truly confessed and repented for those heinous murders he committed.”
If he hasn’t, that’s his problem. Frankly, I’d just as soon not meet this dude in Eternity, or anywhere else.
“Salvation is all any of us really have….isn’t it Rog?”
Thank God there’s a God, Cynical, because The Rabbit is a sinner.
yo @ 166
“dj fuck you thanks for playing though “
No thanks…you don’t sound like my type.
175
“They can live in my neighborhood after they are castrated……..not one second before!”
I don’t want them in my neighborhood with or without balls.
Bob from Boeing @ 171
“To all you who waste my time aout joke bets – get off it.”
No.
Regarding your comments to Richard Pope: Excellent points!
179
Voting at a polling place is like carrying cash downtown after dark.
164.
I think those 124 were a different batch of found ballots, found after the election was certified. Nearly 900 were found in December 2004 and were included in the manual recount. They were a subject of the lawsuits that went on at that time.
169.
My employment doesn’t keep me from discussing politics outside of work.
Bottom line is that todays article in the Seattle Times further validates what everybody with a brain already knows. A large congregation of liberals = fraud. Voter fraud has been written about and further documented by the ACVR this last summer. This has been going on for years and is nothing new.
183.
No, what the article in the Times validates is that Chris Vance is a person who will do anything to stop registed voters from voting who he thinks will vote against Republicans.
Any bullshit nonsense he can think of he will say, because he knows the press can’t help themselves.
There is nothing going on at King County Elections that doesn’t happen in every county in the state. Elections departments doing their best to follow the law and ensure that every vote is counted as the voter intended.
RUFUS @ 183
“Bottom line is that todays article in the Seattle Times further validates what everybody with a brain already knows. A large congregation of liberals = fraud.”
Nope…there is no evidence of systematic election fraud in Washington. You are simply a sore loser, perpetuating groundless wingnut talk radio blather.
Grow up. Get on with your life.
I love it… I’m using Crayon at the next election… they can voter intent me… Hey! maybe my ballot will get on King5!!!
I’ll mark the ballot with a big X
I will cross out and make changes
spill grape juice and burn the edges!!! I have voter intent on my side!!! baby!
186-188
The quality of right wing thought.
Don’t forget to write in Mickey Mouse. No one’s ever done that, either.
@182,
Voter Advocate,
There may not be any laws or policies in KCRE that would prohibit you from talking politics, but that doesn’t mean that it is ethical for you to do so.
If I lived in King County, I would feel that any vote of mine would be totally worthless with partisian hacks like you working there. It is no small wonder that 70% of voters in this state no longer have confidence that the Washington State Election system is valid, functional and truly ensures fair and honest elections.
Your comments also validate Chris Vance’s actions to go around KCRE and go straight to the press. It is very obvious from your attitude that he really has no other option. I would prefer if the Republican party worked with KCRE to fix the problems. The republicans who live in King County deserve to know that their votes are counted and that their elections office is NOT partisian.
Merry Christmas!
Speaking of moonbat voting for Mickey Mouse, I remember this Internet tidbit from a while back.
http://www.hugequestions.com/American_Voters.html
But in parliamentary elections in Finland, Donald Duck outpolls Mickey Mouse every time!
People like Voter advocate further validate my comments on 183.
Nope…there is no evidence of systematic election fraud in Washington. You are simply a sore loser, perpetuating groundless wingnut talk radio blather.
Grow up. Get on with your life.
Comment by dj— 12/12/05 @ 8:26 pm
I have the ACVR on my side… you have nothing. The sore loser syndrome only applies to Diebold moonbats like yourself.
The best thing that I have read on this blog site in the two weeks or so that I have been visiting and posting is Goldy’s suggestion to fill out ballots online – print them and mail them.
It would be even dandier if Washington State gets an online vote tracking system. Voters have a right to know if their vote was received and was counted. We ALL also should be able to check our registration information online. And wouldn’t it be nice if you could submit a CHANGE form online to change your address? We also need a “None of the above” option to eliminate “undervotes,” many states have it and it works very well. It allows our “protest” votes to be counted as undervotes, instead of a election worker determining that we really wanted to vote our party in that empty space.
183
“A large congregation of liberals = fraud. Voter fraud has been written about and further documented by the ACVR this last summer.”
Your source for this claim is the ACVR? HAR! HAR! HAR! That’s good! Sourcing ACVR is the same as quoting the RNC! The ACVR is an RNC front group whose function is propaganda. ACVR = bullshit. Their “report” has been totally discredited.
ACVR is the same old crap of GOP operatives trying to hide their true identity and create a veneer of legitimacy for their partisan lies by posing as journalists, nonpartisan groups, etc.
http://www.bradblog.com/ACVR.htm
“In a situation reminiscent of GOPUSA and Gannongate, a recent election reform group has seemingly sprouted from nowhere … American Center for Voting Rights … is led by GOP operative and election attorney Mark F. (‘Thor’) Hearne …
who delivered a 31-page document to Ney’s Committee assessing Ohio’s 2004 election issues, did not reveal during the hearings that he was until very recently the national general counsel for the Bush/Cheney ’04 campaign. Hearne was also general counsel to Gov. Matt Blunt (R–MO) for the 2004 election; counsel to the Bush/Cheney ’04 ticket; and also served as an attorney for the Bush/Cheney 2000 campaign.”
http://rawstory.com/exclusives.....sy_414.htm
ACVR’s media director, Jim Dyke, also was a Bush campaign staffer; and ACVR’s board chairman, Brian A. Lunde, is a political confidante of Karl Rove and a business associate of indicted GOP moneyman Jack Abramoff.
ACVR’s headquarters is in a 3″ x 3″ mailbox in Dallas, Texas. For photo of ACVR office, see http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001282.htm
190
“Don’t forget to write in Mickey Mouse. No one’s ever done that, either.”
That’s not true. MM is sitting in the White House.
193
“I have the ACVR on my side”
Got a lot going for you, do you, Doofus?
ACVR is a GOP propaganda group. It was created by “Thor” Hearne, Bush/Cheney 04’s general counsel. Its media director, Jim Dyke, was Bush/Cheney 04’s media director. Its board chairman, Brian Lunde, is a Rove confidante and Abramoff associate. Its so-called “report” is nothing but GOP lies.
ACVR media director Jim Dyke “pioneered ‘astroturf’ letters, or letters to the editor that appear to be written by constituents but instead are drafted by political operatives. During the 2004 election, Dyke traveled the country creating what appear to be front groups to disseminate anti-Kerry disinformation. He was also the source of many of the registration irregularity complaints generated in Ohio …
“To help publicize ACVR, team Dyke and Hearne turned to Cybercast News Service, which has intimate connections to the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth … and to the CBS memo controversy through a mutual relationship with Creative Response Concepts a PR firm that deals in political battles.”
ttp://rawstory.com/exclusives/alexandrovna/carter_baker_electoral_reform_controversy_414.htm
Here is a flow chart detailing ACVR’s intimate ties to the Republican Party.
http://rawstory.com/exclusives.....ry_415.htm
@199
Didn’t Pres Jimmy Carter do something with ACVR or was that another organization?
“BradBlog broke the news about false-front ‘American Center for Voting Rights (ACVR)’ in March [2005] after it was the only ‘voting rights’ organization invited to testify before Congress’ House Administrative Committe, chaired by Ohio Republican Congressman Bob Ney. ACVR had registered their web site only four days before, and the only names listed in the domain registration or testifying in the hearing were top Bush Campaign and RNC officials.
“Jim Dyke of Dyke Associates was listed in the domain registration for ACVR and was the 2004 Communications Director for the Republican National Committee. Dyke lied to Brad of BradBlog in an interview, claiming that the address in the registration was that of ‘the company that designed the website.’ The address turned out to be that of a mailbox at a UPS store. Dyke is listed as both the administrative and technical contact for the domain. In an interesting twist, the registration record was blocked from public view …
“The person who testified for ACVR was St. Louis attorney, Mark F. (Thor) Hearne, II, an attorney with Lathrop and Gage. According to BradBlog, ‘Hearne is a former Reagan Administration official, is the National Election Counsel to Bush-Cheney ’04 Inc. and was Missouri counsel to Bush-Cheney ‘00 Inc. As well, he was General Counsel to Republican Missouri Governor Blunt.’ The address on ACVR’s web site is the same as Lathrop and Gage’s Washington D.C. office.”
http://www.relentlesslyoptimistic.com/election/
200
“Didn’t Pres Jimmy Carter do something with ACVR or was that another organization?”
No. They misappropriated the use of his name. Carter never had anything to do with ACVR.
“The Carter Center denies any involvement with the Baker-Carter Commission on Federal Election Reform even though they are on much of its literature. Carter stepped down from the center in March.” http://rawstory.com/exclusives.....sy_414.htm
Carter sat on the Baker-Carter Commission with James A. Baker, the GOP lawyer behind Bush’s legal strategy in Florida in 2000. Although it may seem strange for Carter to team up with Baker on an issue like voting rights, Carter has a personal relationshp with Baker, similar to the personal relationship between Bill Clinton and George H. W. Bush. However, Carter left the B-C Commission in March 2005. ACVR was created on March 17, 2005, and several weeks later was invited to join the B-C Commission by Baker, a GOP partisan and Bush’s personal lawyer. Carter never had anything to do with ACVR.
I knew I read that he was on a commission and I read one of their reports, I thought all of it sounded good. I especially liked the Photo ID’s and if I remember correctly they were supposed to be issued free, which also helps the poor and the elderly because it gives them ID to use for checks and other things if they don’t drive.
The ACVR scam was exposed by Brad Friedman of Brad Blog, who also broke the Feeney vote-rigging scandal.
Tom Feeney is a Republican congressman from Florida who was Jeb Bush’s 1994 running mate for Florida governor, and who, as Speaker of the Florida House, acquired national notoriety by saying he would defy the Florida Supreme Court and choose presidential electors for George W. Bush regardless of whether a court-ordered recount showed that Gore won Florida.
On December 6th, 2004, Brad Blog published a sworn affidavit by Florida software programmer Clint Curtis, who alleged in the affidavit and sworn testimony before Congress that Feeney asked him to design a “vote-rigging software prototype” at a meeting in October 2000 at Yang Enterprises, Inc. (YEI), a Florida computer consulting firm. Curtis had worked for YEI as a programmer, and Feeney was YEI’s general counsel and lobbyist.
“Curtis, a life-long Republican up until then, had been a programmer at YEI, which had several top-secret clearance contracts with the state, NASA and other government agencies. Curtis’ understanding at the time was that the prototype … was to address Feeney’s concerns that the Democrats might attempt to electronically rig the election and Feeney wanted to know what to look out for in that event. After informing YEI CEO Mrs. Li-Woan Yang that he would not be able to hide the vote-flipping routines in the software source-code as Feeney had requested, … Mrs. Yang informed him that the program was needed to ‘rig the vote in South Florida’.”
The Feeney-YEI story goes deeper than vote-tampering software, though. YEI had NASA contracts, and Curtis claimed in his affidavit that YEI employed a Chinese illegal alien who inserted wire-tapping modules into sensitive database programs, who has since been indicted and pleaded guilty to espionage. In addition, Mrs. Yang’s brother was a deported Chinese spy.
Although national media largely ignored the YEI espionage – vote tampering story, local Florida newspapers picked it up. For Brad Blog’s account, see http://www.bradblog.com/ClintCurtisSummary.htm
RUFUS @ 193
“I have the ACVR on my side… you have nothing.”
Yeahhhhh…so, like, ACVR and $1.60 will get you a 16 oz drip coffee ’round here. I have nothing? You must mean besides winning the election challenge, no evidence of fraud with millions spent looking, and Gregoire in the Gov.’s mansion. Right?
“The sore loser syndrome only applies to Diebold moonbats like yourself. “
Sorry, Sparky, you’ve not seen me discuss Diebold machines on this or any blog. Better luck next time.
Really…RUFUS…you have to find a way to get past your sour grapes. It is for your own mental health.
195
Whats wrong with that. According to the folks here in seattle, people live in those things all the time…..
206
Charging money for voting ID probably would be found violative of the Constitution. It has the same effect as a poll tax — it keeps poor people from voting.
158
“This is real simple. If you’re too fucking stupid to fill in an oval, you’re too fucking stoopid to get a vote on public policy. Period. The fact that these people tend to vote moonbat should not be a factor.”
If you want to enact a stupidity test, fine! Let’s start by statutorily disqualifying all Republicans, who by definition are stupid .
We should also disqualify everyone who believes Iraq attacked the U.S. on 9/11/01.
We should also disqualify everyone who believes in UFOs.
This totally avoids the source of the Republicans objections to the current system. Not putting the situation in context purposely insinuates that the Republicans are out to screw a bunch of voters. While this may seem politically expedient. In the end it doesnt lend itself to any honest or usefull discussion of the root problem. Which is the current dilapidated state of our local election system.
And people wonder why the system has gone off the rails.
MS
@207
And the Location of the corruption is Florida! Who knew? Maybe they were targeting all of those NY/Forida double voters. After the Schiavo murder, I would believe anything about Forida. The whole state is corrupt as any of our mafia run cities.
AbcNews released a poll that says 52% of Iraqis want the US to stay until it is safe.
That is a bogus poll,sgmmac. I’m sure you already know about the real polls that put the figure at 71% of Iraqi’s who want us out of Iraq. But that poll would not suit your lie, would it. For people who are not poll driven you sure seem to quote a lot of PR polls that suit your purposes.
Apache,
Actually, almost every poll taken is bogus. I am not a big fan of ABC or any other News agency that takes a poll. You can slant any poll to make the results support your argument by the altering the questions that you ask. After the Nov 04 election, I listened to a very good pollste named Pat Caudill (I think that was his name) talk about the validity of polls. I also remember him being a democrat. He listed a lot of examples of how organizations wordsmith their polls to alter the outcome. That was also done with the Terry Schiavo polls.
if you read the link to the poll info I posted, you can see how the questions were worded and the answers were weighted to see how easy it can be to make the answer fit your agenda.
What did give some good context tot hat ABC poll was seeing how the numbers have changed.
But something else that concerns me about any poll in Iraq, is that some concepts do not translate well into other languages.
I have no idea how well the pollsters conducted their translations….
So despite many of the answers of that poll supporting what I have heard from soldiers returnign from Iraq, and how well some answers validate my support of the war, I have to rate the entire poll as speculative and effectively useless fro debate.
214
…it doesnt lend itself to any honest or usefull discussion of the root problem. Which is the current dilapidated state of our local election system.
The state of the election system(s) in King County is not dilapidated. It is quite improved over the situation in 2004 and vastly superior to the way it was in 2002. It is not perfect, by any means. It needs capital investments in new vote tabulators for the mail ballot operation and an adequate building to house all functions within the Elections Department.
The general election just completed was accomplished quickly and effectively, and the utilization of the Temporary Elections Annex at Boeing Field bodes well for future elections, even before a permanent facility is obtained.
The relentless canards of criticism vomited up by the state Republican Party are becoming transparently obvious for what they really are — merely a continuation of the long standing Republican attempts to reduce voter turnout with baseless charges of voter fraud.
You can always tell what the Republicans are up to, just pay attention to what they accuse others of doing.
Lori Sotelo and her illegal challenges of 2000 voters in Seattle is a real danger to elections in King County, if she, or anyone else, continues that particular Republican disenfranchisement effort. If Norm Maleng will not prosecute her, as he should, there should be a class action suit taken up by the 140 voters illegally challenged.
DJ@177 ROCK HUDSON WAS MORE YOUR TYPE TO BAD THEY BURIED HIM IN A FRUIT JAR.
@214 so let me get this straight…
you think they’re not out to screw a bunch of voters?
@220 Voter Advocate,
@182,
Voter Advocate,
There may not be any laws or policies in KCRE that would prohibit you from talking politics, but that doesn’t mean that it is ethical for you to do so.
If I lived in King County, I would feel that any vote of mine would be totally worthless with partisian hacks like you working there. It is no small wonder that 70% of voters in this state no longer have confidence that the Washington State Election system is valid, functional and truly ensures fair and honest elections.
Your comments also validate Chris Vance’s actions to go around KCRE and go straight to the press. It is very obvious from your attitude that he really has no other option. I would prefer if the Republican party worked with KCRE to fix the problems. The republicans who live in King County deserve to know that their votes are counted and that their elections office is NOT partisian.
Merry Christmas!
Comment by sgmmac— 12/12/05 @ 10:05 pm
RR@195: A 3″x3″ mailbox? I have my domicile! Let me register to vote in King COunty!
The ACVR scam was exposed by Brad Friedman of Brad Blog, who also broke the Feeney vote-rigging scandal.
Who in the f is Brad Friedman? Judging from Wabbit in another donk hack with his own blogs. Wabbit sure come up with a lot of donk blog sites not even worthy of carrying the “jock strap” of the ACVR.
We should also disqualify everyone who believes in UFOs.
Comment by Roger Rabbit— 12/13/05 @ 2:24 am
We should also disqualify everyone who believes in UFOs and that Diebold machines stole the election in 2004.
WTF…. rawstory.com? And we are to believe that worthless donk drivel….Hahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
relentlessyoptimistic.ocm haahahahahahhaahhahaahahhahahahaahaha
WTF is that shit. It sound like a perfume that some ugly women wears to attrach a guy… oh wait a minute its a donk political hack site. Haahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahaha
Wabbits full of shit!
If I lived in King County, I would feel that any vote of mine would be totally worthless with partisian hacks like you working there. It is no small wonder that 70% of voters in this state no longer have confidence that the Washington State Election system is valid, functional and truly ensures fair and honest elections.
Tough shit, Sherlock.
spoken like a true advocate.
You nicely demonstrated the arrogance of some liberals. the people think its broken, and have no confidence in it, but as long as your people are winning, tough shit.
Democratic Voter Advocate,
Do you have any other gems for us tonight? No more vituperations for Republican voters or Chris Vance?
If the elections systems are quite improved over Nov 2004, the Republican party wouldn’t have had to give you the names of almost 2000 double registered voters, nor would they have found over 1600 voters illegally registered by not submitting their residental addresses. According to Ron Sims everyone of those illegally registered voters is being contacted by KCRE to submit their residential addresses and get their registrations updated.
When Patricia A. Levesque gets ONE ballot in the mail and she only votes ONE time in any given election, instead of twice in the last four, I will start believing that KCRE has a good management team.
We are watching you.
Jesus fuck sgm. Need we go over all that again? It’s not worth it, anyways. You won’t change your story once the template is loaded.
Voter Advocate,
If what you say is true then great. And if anyone is bringing baseless, frivilous charges I agree, prosecute them. Unfortunately I dont do the republicans bad/democrats good – democrats bad/republicans good game. So I dont dismiss what one or the other claims outright. What I do know is that the 2002 elections were a goat screw. I also know that when a place becomes politically lopsided for an extended period of time. The party that benefits from that lopsidedness tends to become comfortable to the point where it feels its place in government is its right. Not a priviledge. This leads to an ossified, corrupt political culture that can infect every level of government. Even the elections office. You may say the issues are resolved. But who is to say you’re not effected by what I just described? Lacking objectivity – wouldnt it be possible that what you percieve as being right – is in fact only right for you? But not right for everybody?
This is what I’m getting at when I refer to the system as decrepit.
As such the problem cant just be blamed on our elected officials etc. But its more an extention of political tunnel vision on the part of the public.
No party or individual has the patent on good governance. Voting as if a party or individual does, guarantees bad government in my opinion.
MS
Windie
No.
M
Mike: Where you been the last coupla years?
233.
The people who cross post information here from Stefan Sharkansky’s “Sound Politics” blog are as partisan as one can get, so I reject criticism of mad partisanship directed at me because I point out the deficiencies in their arguments and question their motivations.
As it stands now, I won’t know what is true about the circumstances leading to Lori Sotelo’s claim that nearly 1800 registered voters in KC did so illegally. I do know that about 200 of these people voted, and 70% of them were found to be valid registered voters. I also know that King County Elections has a much better error rate than the Republican Party does.
When one takes an oath under the penalty of perjury that they have personal knowledge of a person residence and then cannot support that allegation, I think the County Prosecutor owes it to the citizenry to fully investigate the matter. Not to proclaim that Sotelo was acting in “good faith.” Faith in a third-party address supplier is not necessarily good, and Sotelo had a much bigger burden to do the work to verify the information she obtained than was put forth.
As for partisanship, could the fact that Norm Maleng, the prosecutor, and Lori Sotelo are members of the same party have something to do with his incuriousness?
2002 is long before I got involved with King County Elections, It pre-dates Dean Logan’s tenure as Elections Director by a year, too. There were a myriad of problems that caused the 2004 screw-up, but I have seen scant indication that they were due to corruption.
This discussion stems from the new allegation from Chris Vance that duplication is open to “mischief”. The only way duplication could lead to mischief is through a criminal conspiracy that is a felony imposing a five year prison sentence for each charge, that is, each ballot tampered with.
Shotgun allegations, with absolutely no proof, put forth over the past year tick me off. I’ll tell the world they do, and give no apologies for doing so.
If I make a few charges of my own, that comes under the heading of “Good for the Goose, Good for the Gander.”
As it stands now, I won’t know what is true about the circumstances leading to Lori Sotelo’s claim that nearly 1800 registered voters in KC did so illegally. I do know that about 200 of these people voted, and 70% of them were found to be valid registered voters. I also know that King County Elections has a much better error rate than the Republican Party does.
That is a crock of shit. The system is flawed and a new registation must be done where everyone proves they are a citizen. There should be fingerprinting and everyone should be forces to go to the polls. If you cant make it to the polls tough shit… your vote is not important enough to count. The problem is that you donks dont take voting seriously. That is why no one should take any donk (including advocate) seriously about the 2004 or any election. Nuff said.
238.
No, take the word of a know nothing who opposes the vast majority of voters in Washington, who do and want continue to vote by mail.
I hope Vance users your ideas for his next bullshit campaign against the voters.