There were several votes in Olympia last week that clearly illustrate the philosophical difference between Democrats and Republicans on election reform: Democrats are focused on fixing the problems we know exist, whereas Republicans are focused on fixing the problems they fear might exist.
I’m not going into the details of what the various bills do, except to say that they standardize and streamline registration, elections, and canvassing procedures statewide, while enabling the secretary of state to better screen for felons and non-citizens. What interests me are the most contentious points of disagreement between the two parties.
Republicans are angry that a voter registration and record-keeping bill did not include two provisions they consider the heart of their election reform proposals: 1) require picture ID at the polling place, and 2) completely purge the current rolls, forcing all voters to re-register. Meanwhile, Democrats are struggling to get a bill through the Senate that would move the September primary date back three weeks, to August.
The primary date proposal was the number one priority for Secretary of State Sam Reed, as well as every county auditor to whom I have talked. All of the Republican bluff and bluster over military ballots during the early days of the contest (Rossi has since quietly dropped the issue from his lawsuit) will prove to be just that, unless they get on board and support the only reform that assures these ballots are mailed on time. Moving the date is also the only way to avoid the catastrophic electoral meltdown that will occur in the inevitable event of a razor thin primary contest.
Ironically, while Republicans block the one reform elections experts say we need most desperately, they stubbornly cling to the one reform the experts say would be most counterproductive: purging the rolls. Forcing 3.5 million voters to suddenly re-register would be a logistical nightmare that our state and local elections departments simply don’t have the resources to handle; if you want to introduce errors and illegal voters into the system, this is exactly the way to do it.
Likewise, requiring a picture ID to vote, places an unreasonable burden on the six percent of voters without a drivers license or passport — predominately seniors and the very poor — adding little upfront security in return. The Democratic measure does require identification at the polls, but allows a utility bill or voter registration card to suffice. Last time I checked, it was a helluva lot easier to get a fake ID in your name than an account with a local utility.
But such arguments miss the point, for the most outrageous part about the Republicans’ feigned outrage that the Democratic measures don’t go far enough to stop the illegal voter problem, is that they have presented absolutely no evidence that we have an illegal voter problem in the first place. With all the time, money and effort that Republicans have put into uncovering illegal votes in the 2004 election, the only substantial numbers found were that of felons who have not had their voting rights restored… and this problem would be largely solved without further legislation, once the statewide voter database (two years in the making) goes live in 2006.
The first-ever computerized state voter database will replace 39 separate county lists, some meticulously kept on file cards.
Once it comes on line in January, it will enable election officials to make sure that felons, dead people and non-citizens aren’t allowed to vote and that people aren’t registered in more than one locale or voting more than once per election.
Secretary of State Sam Reed and state and local election officials are optimistic that the move will purge and protect the voting lists and guard against illegal votes.
By merging voter registration and drivers license data with felons lists and data on deaths from Social Security and the Department of Health, this database would have eliminated nearly every illegal voter uncovered thus far. The Secretary of State is also trying to get access to federal databases on non-citizens… both legal and illegal aliens.
But even in this last election, the number of illegally registered voters was statistically tiny… the SOS estimates maybe 2,000 out of 3.5 million registered voters… about 0.05 percent. And the vast majority of these were the felons the database will be most capable of purging.
Republican rhetoric about polling-place vote fraud is not only unsupported by the evidence, it is implausible. A picture ID at the polls is intended to stop an individual from casting a ballot under another voter’s name — a crime for which there was not a single allegation from the last election — and which in any case, would be a logistically impossible means for individuals to skew a typical election.
That Republicans would focus on imagined problems while ignoring the known ones, suggests an unfortunate willingness to continue to politicize what should be a bipartisan issue. Clearly, purging the rolls is intended to wipe out years of Democratic voter registration efforts, while a picture ID requirement would mostly inhibit voting by the very poor and the very old… a predominately Democratic constituency.
But of course the Republican’s main motivation for harping on voter fraud, is that it fits so neatly with their ongoing PR campaign, painting Gov. Christine Gregoire as the illegitimate beneficiary of a stolen election. To view the Republican focus on fixing non-existent problems in any other light, would be naive.
UPDATE:
Actually, the state Democrats do a pretty good job of explaining their stance on election reform.
Goldy…
The only thing that is naive is the continued denial that we have real problems with our election system and that the last election. Due to the narrow margin of victory, this has completely dissolved any confidence in this system and it’s adminstrators.
Goldy–
Speaking of reform–
How do you think your pal Dean “weird Al Yankovic’s evil twin” Logan is doing today???
Don’t you think you ought to get a real grasp on all the KingCo BS that happened before you attack the R’s on a glancing blow toward real reform??
Re-registration is very important.
So is voter identification…mail-in and polls.
To ignore these cornerstones is irresponsible.
Say Howdy to your pal Dean Logan.
He must feel good to have a true friend who deflects attention away from his incompetence.
Has Logan contributed to your beer fund??
I heard Sam Reed on the radio and he said federal law would prohibit re-registration of everyone, so I don’t see how the state could do this in any event, so the R’s should drop it.
I don’t understand why the R’s don’t just split the primary issue off and pass it. I haven’t heard any critism of moving the date, and it doesn’t help Rossi this year or 2008.
Oh yes, Goldy the D’s have been trying to politicize the election issues in Florida and Ohio, too…once again, the pot and kettle having the same old argument.
I recently heard a nationally recognized election expert say the database is the most important reform because it will reduce fraud, disenfranchisement, and provisional voting. This expert said there is a lack of data on whether ID reduces fraud or discourages voting, and recommends adhering to the current HAVA standards (which allow utility bills, etc.) until better data becomes available. A Department of Justice study showed that in Louisiana blacks were 45 times more likely than whites to lack photo ID, so at least in that state, requiring photo ID would be intrinsically racially discriminatory even if not intentionally so. The expert feels the ID issue is overblown because most of the fraud crops up in absentee ballots, not poll voting.
By the way, this expert expressed the opinion that what happened in Washington “isn’t all that special” and said there were “tremendous problems” with the 2004 election in other states, including exploitation by partisan officials of HAVA’s flaws and vague provisions to disenfranchise voters, and insufficient numbers of voting machines and long waiting lines in some states. The expert’s opinion was the Bush “probably won” in Ohio but the election there was profoundly flawed because “many people were disenfranchised.”
What this expert emphasized is that many of the reforms work in tandem with each other, so it’s important for the legislature to enact the whole package for the reforms to achieve their objectives.
Mr. C:
Why are re-registration and requiring photo id very important reforms? Is it irrelevant to you that these reforms would likely discourage many currently legal voters from voting? Do you reject the notions that some people will be prevented from voting if photo id’s are required and that some people will not bother to re-register, or do you believe preventing illegal voters is more important than ensuring legal voters have the ability to exercise that right? And if it is the latter, would you feel the same way if these reforms would discourage many previously legal voters from going to the polls while preventing a much smaller number of illegal votes being cast?
I’m not infavor of allowing illegal voting, but I do not want reforms that cause a disproportionately larger number of currently legal voters to forego that right, particularly when the number of illegal votes prevented is too small to affect any but the closest elections.
Are you people kidding me?
Yes, you should have a photo ID.
One of the things that the state legislature failed to address was that the mail in votes caused a huge dillema, I was just as guilty as the next guy on this issue.
However, it would make sense to get people off their asses and get them down to the polling station (and show id) when they vote in the next election, have them sign the register and if they cannot get their act together enough to do this, then it’s their problem, not the states.
Absentee voting is meant for the lederly, the sick and the military. we should get back to those basics.
This bill is good news for the dems. They won’t lose any votes. All the mentally disabled citizens are still able to vote. every election you can still send your people to the assisted living facilities and aquire more votes.
prr @6,
I agree with you on one thing… neither of us is a big fan of mail-in voting (though probably for different reasons.) But, the market is proving both of us wrong… citizens love it, and WA will inevitably become an all mail-in state like OR. It just won’t make sense to keep polling places open when 85% of the electorate is voting by mail.
So in the long term, the ID issue will be moot.
But getting back to IDs for a moment, which you, Cynical and Chardonnay seem to be fixated on… what problem, exactly, are you trying to solve? Show me the evidence that people were fraudulently voting at the polling place under assumed names.
I’d be all for studying this issue further, but it makes no sense to impose draconian restrictions to deal with a problem we have no idea exists.
prr @ 6
You say we should have photo ID, but you offer no evidence or data to back this up. In reality, ID is a solution looking for a problem to solve. Photo ID will not keep ineligible felons from voting if the voter database isn’t accurate and up to date. Photo ID will not keep election workers from stuffing ballot boxes or misplacing ballots. The only thing photo ID does is discourage people from voting in another person’s name but there is no evidence this is even a problem. There is no evidence that even one illegal vote was cast in this manner in Washington’s 2004 election.
Here’s a link to an article that discusses the ID issue. A brief quote from this article says,
“One of the most striking features of the [ID] debate has been the factual vacuum in which it’s being conducted. What’s absent is any solid evidence of how many fraudulent votes would actually be stopped by an ID requirement.”
http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/elect.....t0412.html
Goldy;
Man, I have to tell you that I believe you made a huge mistake in passing over vote by mail/postal voting! No ID necessary!!
Also, please forgive my shameless blog-plugging, but if you search my blog – click on my tag to go to it – for “postal voting”, you’ll see some of my work on Britain’s postal vote troubles.
I just voted by post for a local ballot measure and I agree w/ the British judge: They have “STEAL ME” written all over them.
Goldy @ 8…
How many provisional votes are inquestion?
No-one knows……
Alan,
Seriously, who on this board actually offers evidence.
Gove me break you friggin tool
prr @12,
I’m not sure what your asking. Provisionals require signature matching, just like absentees.
My point is that there is no evidence that voter fraud via polling place identity theft is a widespread problem. None. Not a single allegation in the last election. (And there have been a helluva lot of allegations of one thing or another.)
Also, if you think about it, the mechanics of such fraud make it a logistically stupid way to try to influence an election. It’s incredibly time consuming and risky, and would take an army of co-conspirators to generally achieve the desired effect. There’s simply no reason that it should be widespread.
Photo IDs are a solution in search of a problem.
Goldy,
What are your thoughts on purging the voter database of non-citizens?
What about making sure that a person is a U.S. citizen and a citizen of Washington before they’re allowed to register?
What about purging against not only the WA felon database, but national or other states’ databases?
Mark @15,
Well first, let me just reiterate that I believe we should automatically restore voting rights to felons upon their release from prison.
That said, under the current law, we should take reasonable steps to purge rolls of felons… and the statewide database seems like a very reasonable step. As to other state databases, I don’t think we want to get into a Florida-like situation where a clearly inaccurate list was used to unjustly deny the franchise to thousands of legal voters.
As to purging the database of non-citizens… again, we should take all reasonable steps to purge the database of people who do not have the right to vote. To that end the SoS is hoping to get the cooperation of the Feds. There is little evidence, however, that this is a big problem. (Despite all the foreign sounding names that Martin has found.)
As to making sure a person is a U.S. citizen… um… how? Again, if the feds cooperate, sure. But if you’re going to require everybody to show a birth certificate or passport to register to vote, you’re going to dramatically inhibit legal voters… it will just be too damn inconvenient for a lot of people.
I think there is a philosophical difference between many on the right and the left on this issue… a lot of people on the right don’t seem to mind inhibiting participation… they seem to feel that you should have to make an effort. Those of us on the left feel Democracy is best served when the franchise is granted as widely as possible.
To me, it is a cost benefit analysis. The harder you make it vote, the fewer illegal votes we’ll have, but we trade off much lower participation in return. There’s a reason why the credit card companies don’t do more to prevent fraud… inconveniencing customers is more expense than the losses to fraud.
Goldy–
“alot of people on the RIGHT don’t mind inhibiting participation”
“Those of us on the LEFT feel democracy is best served when the franchise is grant AS WIDELY AS POSSIBLE”
I love the loaded representations you make Goldy but explain what in the hell AS WIDELY AS POSSIBLE means.
Does that mean as WIDELY AS POSSIBLE for your candidate to win?
I hear all this nonsense about ID inhibiting participation.
Give me the names of some people who won’t vote if they have to give an SS or some other ID # to do so????
How many aliens now vote (besides the LEFTISTS, of course!)?
Stay tuned and you will see.
The statewide database is a good thing.
In Wisconsin however, it wouldn’t have caught all the last minute East Coaster’s bussed in for Springsteen who decisded they were now Wisconsin residents for a day. Need clear early cut-off dates so voter registrations can be challenged fairly and effectively.
Republicans have to continue to try to create problems that don’t really exist so that they can rant that the current system is terrible to support their court case.
Under their reasoning perhaps we should require an eye test to make certain voters are actually reading the ballot correctly. Do we know how many people by mistake voted for someone else because they couldn’t read the ballot correctly due to eye problems? What about some type of reading/literacy/ follow the directions test? Do we really want people to vote who make mistakes? Aren’t they then submitting false votes if they make a mistake??
There are other requirements we should also impose in specific cases. What about a poll tax? If voters can’t come up with $10 or $25, then they are probably not really contributing much to the economic life of this country anyway. Why should they be able to vote? If they don’t own a car then perhaps they shouldn’t vote on any issues dealing with cars. And if they don’t own land why should they vote on land use issues? There are all kinds of impediments we could put up and many have existed in the past to discourage voiting. That doesn’t mean we should add more like requiring a photo id or a passport.
We don’t require, in most cases, a photo ID to use a credit card or write a check, why voting? We have plenty of people writing bad checks and using phony credit cards or stolen cards. I think we’re talking about hundreds of millions of dollars according to the credit card companies and businesses who lose money. Bases on the actual statistics there is a much better case to be made to show a photo id before writing a check or using a credit card. And what about the people who pass counterfiit money? Maybe we should figerprint everyone before they spend cash?
There are penalities for fradulently voting – where is the list of people have been arrested for knowingly voting twice or using a false name? The small number of felons who voted by mistake appear not to have done it to break any law. There was no organized effort to get them to vote. They did it thinking that they had regained their right to vote after they had served their time. They should be applauded for trying to participate in democracy. In most cases we have no idea who they voted for but there was no conspiracy as Republicans would seemingly want one to believe.
With our voter turnout overall so dismal we need to look at ways to encourage people to vote, not put more roadblocks up to make it more difficult. Unless of course you are trying to reduce the number of poor or elderly people who tend to vote democratic from voting.
I’m sure many of you already read Goldy regularly, but his takedown of the Republican state legislators’ position on election reform is a must-read. A qui
I’m sure many of you already read Goldy regularly, but his takedown of the Republican state legislators’ position on election reform is a must-read. A quic
Republicans have to continue to try to create problems that don’t really exist so that they can rant that the current system is terrible to support their court case.
Cooking up problems and conspiracies won’t support their case. They’ll only look silly in court.
No they just want to stir things up for 2006 and 2008.
Just a comment on poll voting: I’m a poll voter and I show my voter registration AND my drivers’ license each and every time, BEFORE I sign the book. I have the ID ready before I approach the table to sign the book. I thought that was what the voter registration card is for – to show when you vote. I don’t know if the poll workers would ask me for ID if I didn’t have it ready, and I haven’t noticed whether other people show ID or if they are asked for it. I have just always shown ID. My husband is an absentee voter and he doesn’t have to show any ID whatever. He does however, check his voter registration card to make sure he signs as he is registered.
Personally, I think people should show ID and I think that absentee voters should have a number or something that would be listed on their voter registration card, and that should be written on the envelope next to their signature. That way, there wouldn’t be any worry about signaure changes over time (it does change when you get older). Like I said, I think people should show something. What is the voter registration card for anyway if you don’t use it to verify qualified voters. That said, however, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If absentee voters don’t have to in some way verify their identity when they vote, neither should poll voters.
Yes Republicans are looking to 2006 and 2008, I agree. Create controversy, whether it exists or not, and accuse the Deomocrats as the cause. Make it a partisan issue. Republicans need to mobilize their base and they do this by demonizing the other side. Did you see the campaign run against the AARP speaking out against Bush’s private accounts for social security? They run an ad saying the AARP’s real agenda is gay marriage by showing two men holding hands. How is that for constructive dialogue on dealing with social security? Funny it seems gay marriage was also the problem during the Kerry campaign. It was also the problem with John McCain. If you don’t really have an answer to solving a problem change it to something else that you know is controversial and blame it on the Democrats. Too bad its only an issue of winning and staying in power for Republicans rather than addressing real problems and meaningful solutions. For them they want to cut social security rather than simply raise the cap. Why is it that only people who make less than $90,000 have to pay social security?
I have never been asked for id at the poll. They find my name in the book, I sign and they give me a ballot.
Marilyn @ 21
Marilyn, the problem with photo ID is there are many people who don’t drive. Elderly and disabled people don’t readily have access to places that issue photo ID and may not have money to pay for it. A state ID card costs $15 and a passport costs $97, which for some people represents their food money.
There is nothing wrong with laws that allow use of substitute ID such as utility bills or bank statements. This form of ID satisfies the federal Help America Vote Act (HAVA) law, and for good reason. This is actually a better ID because fake picture IDs are easy to get for the kind of people who use them, whereas it’s more difficult to steal another person’s utility bill or bank statement.
Finally, experts who study election problems tell us there simply is not a problem of imposters voting at polling places, and most voting fraud is perpetrated with absentee ballots. An ID requirement does nothing to solve that problem.
On the other hand, disenfranchisement of legitimate voters is a far more serious problem than fraud which the Republican Party has chosen to ignore. Pollworkers can easily use ID laws to discriminate against targeted groups of photos (e.g. minorities and students) by selectively enforcing ID requirements. Even when there is no deliberate intention to keep people from voting, every time you put another hurdle in the voter’s path, you are discouraging more people from voting and reducing participation in the electoral process.
Democrats are leading Washington in the right direction by enacting reforms that will clean up the registration lists, reduce confusion, and prevent fraud without interfering with the voting rights of legal voters. Republicans want to take us in the wrong direction by throwing up barriers to voting that aren’t effective to prevent fraud but interfere with legitimate voting.
Presenting ID mostly would server as an additional psychological hurdle to anyone tempted to vote in another person’s name, etc. There are claims that many Seniors don’t have ID, claims which are very hard to validate. ID doesn’t have to mean a driver’s license or a passport, it could be as simple as bringing some credit cards, a utility bill, a social security card, etc. Several pieces of matching ID in lieu of a drivers license or passport would stop all but the most determined illegal voter. And it would be no additional cost to the elderly. Why would anyone interested in election security be against a common sense additional check. The worst case scenario is that the additional check would slow down the polls, but since almost all of the workers are volunteers, and we already know that there were not enough workers to handle high turnout, why not simply hire additional volunteers, particulalry at the precincts which are known to have high turnout.
I agree that the number of poll voters casting regular ballots and doing so illegally is very minimum. Thus, at the very least, ID should be required for all those casting provisional ballots, that would go a long way to discouraging those who want to abuse the system by obtaining extra provisional ballots and attempting to get them counted.
More importantly, provisionals have to be mechanically modified so that they cannot go through the optical scanners, and printing them on bright colored paper is a good idea as well. More scrutiny should also surround the duplication of provisionals for counting. A good idea would be to have a separate, special optical scanner that would allow provisional to be mechanically read, and that would produce a legitimate ballot in the correct precinct as an output. This would prevent tabulation errors with provisionals and reduce the hand tabulation of provisionals to streamline the process. Since provisionals would be color coded, they would be easy to find, and easy to recount and reduplicate if needed.
But the real problems with this past election were in the handling of the registration database before the election, and the accounting and tabulation of the ballots after the election. The Democrats reforms address some of these issues, but stricter controls and procedures are needed.
The most important control of all is to maintain an exact count of how many ballots are issued. The total number of counted ballots should always be equal to or less than the number of ballots issued. And, all ballots should be accounted for even if the accounting is simply that a particular ballot was never returned by a voter who decided not to vote, or that the ballot was destroyed by a poll worker when a voter made a mistake and wanted a new ballot, etc. This is just basic. To count anything, you have to have strict controls. I think the easiest way to accomplish this is to serialize every ballot. The serial number would not be tracked to the voter, but instead tracked for issuance and then tabulation into the correct category upon receipt. An extremely strict control would be maintained on the database of issued ballot serial numbers. Then, if for some reason, ballots were attempted to be counted that had been issued illegally or errouneously, they would be easily identifiable as being invalid serials.
There are a number of things that can be done cheaply and easily to secure the election. By far the biggest problem was just poor record keeping in King County. Sure it is a large county with lots of ballots, etc. but there’s no excuse for batch slips and other documentation that is hand written with numbers crossed out and rewritten, etc. That’s just plain shoddy work and it’s left zero confidence in the outcome of this past governor’s race, even if our law ends up settling the matter via the hand recount and legal contest process.
Goldy @ 16
“Well first, let me just reiterate that I believe we should automatically restore voting rights to felons upon their release from prison.”
Why?
If you’re using the the ACA’s argument, I would remind you that they actually said, “…upon completion of the offender’s sentence including community supervision.”
Since restitution is ordered as part of the sentence and is considered part of community supervision, you are suggesting and even earlier step than the ACA.
As I’ve mentioned before, there needs to be pressure to pay restitution to the victims of crime.
If you argue that voting rights won’t encourage them to pay, then I’d say that said rights must not be very important to the criminal.
If you argue that criminals hold voting rights as sacred, then I’d say it is all the more reason to hold them out until they (at least financially) “make right” what they did wrong.
I would again, for the umpteenth time, challenge anyone on here — especially Goldy & a few others — to tell me what the statistics are on uncollected restitution AND how much we taxpayers pay out of our pockets to help victims each year. I’m not talking fines. JUST RESTITUTION, which is defined as the actual, typically medical, damages to the victim.
mark @ 15
What are your thoughts on purging the voter database of non-citizens?
In principle it’s a good idea, but in practice I’m a little curious as to how this is supposed to work logisitically.
I’m not aware of a reliable, comprehensive database of US citizens anywhere. People who have passports have usually been pretty well checked out, but that’s only 20% of the population. (~60,000,000 US passports are in circulation now).
The Social Security database just separates into “legal for employment” and “not legal for employment”. A naturalized citizen, an H1-B holder, or a green card holder all have exactly the same type of social security cards (i.e. applied for well after birth, and “legal for employment”).
The census asks for citizenship status (as I recall), but census records are sealed for 72 years. The Census Bureau will fight tooth and nail to make sure they stay sealed, lest people start lying to the census for some reason or another.
A name search is courting disaster. First generation Chinese immigrants and their US-born children tend to have rather similar names. (things that are easy for foreign-born tongues to pronounce). A lot of Mary Wongs and Bill Zhengs. I personally know two Nancy Lees. One is a citizen, one is on a student visa.
You could ask people to produce birth certificates or certificates of naturalization I suppose. My original birth certificate came from a somewhat simpler time. It was a mimeograph of a form entered manually with a Selectric typewriter that had a VERY well-worn King County seal on it. I suppose a professional document analysis could determine if it was printed on real late-60s paper or if I’d photocopied something and walked around with it folded in my wallet for a few months, but is that really going to happen for all marginal cases? I know lots of 20-somethings who are far away from home and would have real trouble laying hands on a birth certificate on short notice.
Any other ideas on this subject?
Jeff B. has posted a comment lacking predictions about Goldy’s vulgarity or the usual pontifications about the self-destructive tendencies of the Democrats. Is he getting soft perhaps? Let’s see what we have here:
it could be as simple as bringing some credit cards, a utility bill, a social security card, etc.
Under the Millerian theory of DVF (Distributed Vote Fraud) one of the many tactics of the Democrats who statistically cheat more than Republicans (i.e Democrats infinity Republicans 0) – these documents could be readily manufactured by illegal aliens in nondescript buildings in South Downtown Seattle supervised by latte-sipping, volvo-driving Democrats – for those who would not not normally have them, i.e. homeless or indigent voters.
A suprising development is the recommendation of a host of procedures for processing provisional ballots. By definition of the Supreme Committee of USP all these kinds of ballots are fraudulent by nature. Wouldn’t it be simpler to just eliminate them all? If the voter can’t show proper identification or arrive at the proper voting locale he or she shouldn’t be allowed to vote at all.
To top it all off, Jeff B. calls for special equipment to process these fraudulent documents. This is runaway government spending!
However Jeff B.’s subsequent discussion is a breath of fresh air. It is in keeping with the recommendations of the Supreme Committee of (u)SP. Serialized ballots are the among the strongest deterrents to Millerian DVF and there is no evidence whatsoever in any way shape or form that any County elections office or any future Secretary of State or by extension any major political party would betray the anonymity or privacy of the voting public’s voting decisions.
Jeff B’s latest analysis is worrisome indeed. His first two assertions signal a weakening of resolve.
All five categories which get jurors disqualified are also NOT QUALIFIED to register to vote, or vote.
Tell me which of the five categories would allow the 35,525 disqualified jurors in King County to register and vote.
In a message dated 4/12/2005 2:49:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Greg.Wheeler@METROKC.GOV writes:
Jurors are disqualified for 5 reasons:
Citizenship
Residency
Inability to speak English
Age (Must be at least 18)
Felony conviction without having full right restored.
Jurors can be excused for any number of reasons as long as the reason falls within policy; physical incapacity, financial hardship, childcare issues, etc. However, they are all pooled statistically as “excused”.
Greg Wheeler
Manager – Jury Services
206.296.9319
http://www.metrokc.gov/kcsc/juror.htm
jsa @ 28
Sounds like Martin @ 30 has at least one resource that can be run up against the voter files.
I agree that a perfect file of VALID citizens would be hard to get. However, I believe you could purge against a number of existing databases to remove those who would NOT qualify. And, going forward, clerks taking registrations SHOULD ask if the person is a citizen and remind them of the penalties for perjury.
Goldy–
I sure get a huge kick out of you LEFTIST Pinheads.
Months ago, I told you to get off your lazy asses and start looking for errors to help your candidate. YOU LAUGHED AT ME AND SPECIFICALLY MADE THE POINT THAT THE DEMS HAD NO RESPONSIBILITY HERE…IT WAS ALL UP TO THE R’s.
Read Postman’s article today and weep GOLDY.
Your Dem attorneys are now running around lie chickens with their heads cut-off trying to mine votes to offset the KINGCO screw-ups….and you know what???????? It’s too late dudes!
I tell you straight up Goldy. I knew you would minimize and ignore me. How you doin’ now?? Ask your pal Lawyer X about this one. It was a monumental Dem screw-up.
Can you spell U-H-A-U-L??
Looks like their still trying to hide ballots.
Only this time, the want to hide ballots that will BENEFIT rossi.
dd
Mr C is right, the dem lawyers are way late on this. I can picture Mr. Berendt crying in front of the judge that all they want to do is “count every vote”. What they really want to do is twist the rules by introducing a boatload of new evidence at the last minute so the opposing side will have no time to review or refute it. You call it Republicans hiding ballots, I call it catching the Demos cheating.
zip–
I just howl thinking back on explaining all this to these pinheads months ago. One of the many problems with these LEFTISTS is they are all mouth and no ears. They love to hear themselves speak.
They should remember the story of the wise old owl—–
The wise old owl lived in an oak.
The less he spoke the more he heard
LEFTISTS WILL NEVER BE LIKE THAT WISE OLD BIRD!
I’m not worried over the outcome, I think bridges will side with gregoire.
What I do think, the repubs. have made many accusations that aren’t true.
They cry count every vote, even when its too late, and they know it. Until, it doesn’t benefit them.
Now they want to stop counting again.
Pretty obvious.
Do you think if a duffle bag full of military ballots showed up, they wouldn’t try to count them?
You bet you ass they would.
goldy, thanks for finally bringing up the election debacle again. I love it that it gets so much press. It’s like one long commercial for us. FREE.
John Fund was on FOX tonight talking about election reform. He didn’t actually come right out and say ‘WA’ but I think we all knew, since they Mentioned his book, soon to be revised with OUR NOV ELECTION getting it’s own chapter.
FYI hello, hello, a state ID is $4
you hippies can get a brand new birth cert downtown and maybe even meet Dean Logan in person, cost is about $15.
go without the pot for 1 week. It’s for the greater good.
think of it as taxes you are giving to the commune.
Hey, it’s a lawsuit of course both sides will try to gain every advantage they can. The difference is the Repubs did it within the agreed schedule, the Demos are setting up a ruse so they can whine when they are not allowed to introduce this new info. They are going to whine as loudly as we have heard yet, you bet you ass.
Goldie @ 0
“Democrats are focused on fixing the problems we know exist, whereas Republicans are focused on fixing the problems they fear might exist.”
So if the goal is to re-establish voter confidence, do you suppose that fixing what the Republicans are concerned about should be totally ignored?
My, that doesn’t seem to be truly in the spirit of solving the voter confidence issue. It sounds like you are into a power struggle and making both sides feel confident in the election is not a priority?
Was what happened in Olympia a partisan power struggle? Or should the majority party have tried to help the healing in the state and re-establish faith in the election process.
I’m sorry, the rest of your article tells me exactly how you “feel” about healing the rift.
I guess we should continue to do paritsan politics at all levels. Let’s work at grinding the “other guy” into the ground. Go out team, and win win win!
Jeff B. @ 26
“Presenting ID mostly would server as an additional psychological hurdle to anyone tempted to vote in another person’s name, etc.”
Ummm, Jeff … voting in another person’s name is a felony carrying a prison sentence; if that isn’t enough psychological hurdle to stop them, then neither is an ID requirement.
“There are claims that many Seniors don’t have ID, claims which are very hard to validate.”
There’s nothing “hard” about validating these “claims.” The state knows how many people live in Washington, and how many driver’s licenses and ID it has issued. There are 48,000 Washington residents over age 65 with no driver’s license or state ID, representing 7% of the state’s over-65 populaton.
“ID doesn’t have to mean a driver’s license or a passport, it could be as simple as bringing some credit cards, a utility bill, a social security card, etc.”
FYI, Republicans are insisting on PHOTO ID and oppose using utility bills, credit cards, etc., as ID.
“Several pieces of matching ID in lieu of a drivers license or passport would stop all but the most determined illegal voter.”
It would also stop all but the most determined legal voters and dramatically increase the lines and waiting times at polling places. But the most serious criticism of this idea is that it creates a subjective standard — how much ID is enough — and invites disparate treatment of different voters. The ID requirement has to be the same for every voter, or it will not survive an equal protection challenge in the courts.
“And it would be no additional cost to the elderly.”
The real question is whether it would burden the elderly. Cost is only one of many burdens — and potential barriers to voting — that ID requirements create. Some elderly do not have utility bills or even bank accounts, because they live in housing arrangements where utilities are provided, and someone else may be managing their money.
“Why would anyone interested in election security be against a common sense additional check.”
Because it discourages people from voting, slows down voting lines, and is unnecessary — ID requirements are a solution for looking for a problem to solve. Imposter voting simply doesn’t happen; there is no evidence that even one vote was cast in the governor’s election by someone posing as someone else.
“The worst case scenario is that the additional check would slow down the polls,”
That’s bad enough by itself, but an additional, unnecessary check also will reduce turnout.
“but since almost all of the workers are volunteers, and we already know that there were not enough workers to handle high turnout, why not simply hire additional volunteers, particulalry at the precincts which are known to have high turnout.”
The nationwide shortage of election volunteers is already 500,000, and this is expected to get worse in the future because many of today’s volunteers are elderly and young people are not volunteering, so there are no replacements for them in the pipeline. King County alone needs over 10,000 poll workers for every election. They just aren’t available. For a news story about this issue, see http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....Oct22.html
“I agree that the number of poll voters casting regular ballots and doing so illegally is very minimum.”
Then why do we need to burden the voting process with additional procedures that aren’t needed to solve an actual problem?
“Thus, at the very least, ID should be required for all those casting provisional ballots, that would go a long way to discouraging those who want to abuse the system by obtaining extra provisional ballots and attempting to get them counted.”
Number one, this hasn’t been a problem, and number two, I don’t see how ID would prevent this problem. Provisional ballots have to be signed and are processed like absentee ballots, that is, they are sent to the county election department for verification of the signature and the voter’s eligibility. If a person somehow obtains blank provisional ballots and signs his own name to more than one ballot, only one ballot will be counted. If he signs phony names to the ballots, they will be rejected because the name doesn’t appear on the registration rolls or (if he used names of real voters) the signatures don’t match. However, I’m aware that 4 pro-Rossi counties failed to check signatures on a total of 1,796 provisional ballots, so it’s theoretically possible that Rossi may have benefitted from this type of fraud, although I believe that’s very unlikely.
“More importantly, provisionals have to be mechanically modified so that they cannot go through the optical scanners, and printing them on bright colored paper is a good idea as well.”
Everyone agrees with this and I believe it has either been passed by the legislature or is being implemented by county auditors without need of legislation. Expect to see this implemented in time for the 2006 election.
“More scrutiny should also surround the duplication of provisionals for counting. A good idea would be to have a separate, special optical scanner that would allow provisional to be mechanically read, and that would produce a legitimate ballot in the correct precinct as an output. This would prevent tabulation errors with provisionals and reduce the hand tabulation of provisionals to streamline the process. Since provisionals would be color coded, they would be easy to find, and easy to recount and reduplicate if needed.”
I don’t know what you mean by “duplication of provisionals for counting.” I don’t believe this is being done, or that there are any plans to do it. The proposals I’ve heard are that provisional ballots be coded differently so polling place machines can’t read them, but they would still be mechanically counted by optical scanning machines.
“But the real problems with this past election were in the handling of the registration database before the election, and the accounting and tabulation of the ballots after the election.”
Yes and no. Yes to the registration database in the sense that some ineligible felons were registered. This will be corrected by the new statewide database and better information sharing between agencies, and implemented in time for the 2006 election. Despite GOP allegations, they were NOT significant accounting and tabulation problems, and they have dropped these claims from their lawsuit. Most of the “problem ballots” involved felon votes and mislaid ballots found later. The lack of a reconciliation system to match votes cast with ballots counted is fair game for criticism, but the “reconciliation errors” alleged by GOP partisans are not reconciliation errors at all but a misinterpretation of records that were never intended for that purpose. If there is a problem here, it is the lack of reconciliation records, not accounting problems.
“The Democrats reforms address some of these issues, but stricter controls and procedures are needed.”
We don’t agree. We believe these “controls and procedures” address a fraud problem that simply doesn’t exist and will serve only to keep legitimate voters from voting. In addition, we’re very concerned they will be selectively enforced by partisan election officials or poll workers to target specific groups of voters for disenfranchisement. That is how these “controls and procedures” have been used in a number of other states, and we have no intention of allowing this to happen in our state.
“The most important control of all is to maintain an exact count of how many ballots are issued. The total number of counted ballots should always be equal to or less than the number of ballots issued. And, all ballots should be accounted for even if the accounting is simply that a particular ballot was never returned by a voter who decided not to vote, or that the ballot was destroyed by a poll worker when a voter made a mistake and wanted a new ballot, etc. This is just basic. To count anything, you have to have strict controls.”
Before you ask counties to do this extra work, you need to explain where the money to pay for it will come from. Counties took a huge financial hit from the license tab rollback, and are the most underfunded government entities in the state. They simply don’t have money for additional staff or tasks. SOS Reed recently told a group of lawyers in Seattle that during his tenure as Thurston County auditor, the percentage of the county budget being spent on law and justice rose from one-fourth to three-fourths. The story is the same across the state. In other words, police services, courts, and jails are eating all the money that counties have. The state really needs to provide funding for any additional burdens it puts on the counties, but this year’s legislature, faced with its own $1.2 billion shortfall, refused to provide additional election funding to counties, so it’s hard to see how counties would be able to implement your proposal.
“I think the easiest way to accomplish this is to serialize every ballot.”
They already are.
“The serial number would not be tracked to the voter, but instead tracked for issuance and then tabulation into the correct category upon receipt. An extremely strict control would be maintained on the database of issued ballot serial numbers. Then, if for some reason, ballots were attempted to be counted that had been issued illegally or errouneously, they would be easily identifiable as being invalid serials.”
Here again, this is a burdensome amount of additional accounting and handling for which money doesn’t exist. It also would slow down the certification of elections, because it creates additional steps in ballot processing. The question to ask is, is it really necessary? What problem are you trying to solve, and does this procedure solve it?
“There are a number of things that can be done cheaply and easily to secure the election. By far the biggest problem was just poor record keeping in King County. Sure it is a large county with lots of ballots, etc. but there’s no excuse for batch slips and other documentation that is hand written with numbers crossed out and rewritten, etc.”
I think we all agree there’s room for improvement, but see comment below.
“That’s just plain shoddy work and it’s left zero confidence in the outcome of this past governor’s race,”
This simply isn’t true. The lack of confidence in the outcome is among partisans on the losing side, who have been fed large spoonfuls of unproven allegations and outright lies and myths. A nationally recognized elections expert who recently visited Seattle stated there was “nothing special” about our problems and there were far more serious problems in other states, citing Ohio as a specific example. Yes, we should strive for improvement, but realistically there will always be human errors as long as a human element is involved in voting, ballot processing, counting, and accounting.
“even if our law ends up settling the matter via the hand recount and legal contest process.”
The bottom line is that it does settle the outcome, whether the partisans on the losing side like it or not. But the main point I would make here is that close elections will always generate controversy, and no amount of election reform or layers of additional procedure will avoid disputes over elections as close as this one. It was, after all, the closest gubernatorial election in U.S. history. Elections should NOT be done over simply because the victory margin is within the margin of error. Rather, anyone contesting an election should have the burden of proving that illegal votes or errors changed the result, as required by our existing laws.
Alan, That’s quite the manifesto. I’ll attempt to capsulize it with: Let’s not do anything rash here, after all our candidate won. And what’s with this “burdensome amount of paperwork”? Ever heard of a database? The problem is garbage in, garbage out. The ID is one additional check on the “in” side of the equation.
30
Uh, Martin? First of all, I wondered where you’ve been buddy, and glad to see you’re still among the living. Now that we have the niceties out of the way, can you point me to the law that says only English-speakers can vote? I didn’t know that was a voting requirement — and if it is, it would seem to eliminate a goodly percentage of our population and no small number of Republican voters, not to mention George W. Bush.
Mr. Cynical @ 32
How do you know this effort just started or that the Democratic attorneys haven’t been doing this all along? How do you think they found the 1,796 provisional ballots in Rossi counties last month that weren’t signature checked? The more interesting part of Postman’s article is that GOP attorneys are trying to exclude evidence favorable to Gregoire. What kind of trial is that? Huh? It proves this lawsuit isn’t about finding out who really won.
zip @ 34
Actually, zip, they’ve been working on this for months.
Martin @ 30 & Mark @ 31 (en passant):
Um, actually, no.
There are LOTS of non-English speaking voters up on this hill.
The voters guide is sent out in English and Chinese “Just in case”. We have Spanish, Mandarin, and Cantonese-speaking poll workers when I go out to vote to assist “differently languaged” citizens with voting.
I will state for the record I want everyone to speak English. I learned Mandarin as a China hand, and was never given the opportunity to have citizenship. It’s simply the right thing to do. I expect the same of people who come to live here. Unfortunately, a large number of expatriates in Asia never learn the local language, and some number of American immigrants also never do. You cannot follow proceedings in a jury trial without conversational fluency in English. You can still have opinions on how your tax money is spent.
Non-residency will (and should!) disqualify you from jury duty, but not from voting. I was a faithful registered Seattle voter through 2 full election cycles bumming around in Asia. My sister hasn’t lived here for 10 years. She still votes. Since she’s “gone native” in Europe, she has asked the embassy if there’s a generic expat ballot so she can vote for President and give the local offices a miss (she doesn’t read up on them, doesn’t pay US taxes, and of course, doesn’t live here), Nope. As an expat, you get a full absentee ballot from your municipality of residence, or you don’t get one at all.
Lastly, who are these clerks who take voter registrations? I’ve been registered for nearly 20 years now, and don’t remember who took my initial registration, but I promise it’s never been in a courthouse or other government office. Probably some nice girl somewhere around my former age collecting signatures at a demonstration a lifetime ago.
Nice ideas. Like many nice ideas, utterly unworkable on the ground. Thanks though!
you bet you ass.
Comment by zip
thanks for the correction grammar queen.
Bob @ 39
The Democratic legislature didn’t go along with Republican proposals that don’t solve a real problem that exists and have been misused in other states to disenfranchise voters, and I’m glad they didn’t. Sorry, Bob, but Democrats aren’t going to roll over to GOP bullying tactics this time. Nothing will satisfy Republicans unless they win, so it’s wasted effort to try to appease their lack “faith” in the process. The reforms being enacted by Democrats are common sense, address real problems, have been proven to work in other states, and will solve the problems of our 2004 gubernatorial election. Go peddle your GOP b.s. and talking points somewhere else, because we’re not buying them.
I can’t cash a check without ID.
I can’t drive without ID.
I can’t go into a tavern or lounge without ID
I can’t buy tabacco without ID
I can’t gamble without ID
I can’t buy alcohol without ID
I can’t fly without ID
I can’t take money out of my bank without ID
I can’t buy online without ID
I can’t get out of this country without ID
I can’t get back in this country without ID
I can’t go to any other country without ID
I can’t get out of any other country without ID
I can’t buy a gun without ID
I can’t leave my home without my wallet full of ID!
If they find me dead tommorrow they are looking for my ID
But If I go to vote I don’t need to have any ID …Really now?
And which of these is items is the most critical right that I have because I live in this nation and am an American!
zip @ 41
The Democratic legislature created a statewide database, so what’s your issue? We’ve made our objections to the GOP’s ID proposal clear, so there’s no need to reiterate them here.
chardonnay @ 37:
you hippies can get a brand new birth cert downtown and maybe even meet Dean Logan in person, cost is about $15.
go without the pot for 1 week. It’s for the greater good.
First, you are poorly informed about the price of pot, but that’s irrelevant.
You can get a new birth certificate downtown if you were actually born in King county!. Some people weren’t born here in the navel of the Earth. Some were born in other parts of the United States and have no living relatives there. Military brats tend to be in this category. They’re often born on or near a base somewhere in this great Republic of ours, and five transfers later, there is no connection with their place of birth other than that’s where their birth certificate lives.
I can’t cash a check without ID.
I can’t drive without ID.
I can’t go into a tavern or lounge without ID
I can’t buy tabacco without ID
I can’t gamble without ID
I can’t buy alcohol without ID
I can’t fly without ID
I can’t take money out of my bank without ID
I can’t buy online without ID
I can’t get out of this country without ID
I can’t get back in this country without ID
I can’t go to any other country without ID
I can’t get out of any other country without ID
I can’t buy a gun without ID
I can’t leave my home without my wallet full of ID!
But you could do every one of these things, with a fake id, you could make in about 5 minutes.
They busted mexicans over here a couple years ago, with a couple thousand fake id’s.
GS @ 48
This is a specious argument, GS. Cashing a check isn’t a constitution right. Neither is driving, going into a tavern or lounge, buying tobacco or alcohol, gambling, flyng, taking money out of your bank, buying online, traveling in and out of the country, or buying a gun. Having a wallet full of ID may be a practical necessity for you, but you are not an 88-year-old confined to an assisted living facility with limited mobility and no transportation.
By the way, after you get a little older and have been shaving for more than a year, you won’t need ID to buy alcohol or tobacco anymore. It’s been 40 years since I’ve been carded.
Alan @ 40,
Yeah, that is quite a manifesto. So most of your arguments against better elections security amount to:
* Any form of ID checking will automatically disenfranchise voters, lower turnout, burden the elderly, etc. therefore we should make no attempt to better authenticate future elections.
* There are not enough workers to conduct elections properly, so we’ll just have to make do with long lines, improperly handled provisionals, etc.
* There’s not enough money to conduct the election more securely, so we can’t make any improvements that require money.
* Every single flaws in this election is just partisan Republicans in a rage. There were no actual flaws in counting or documenting the election.
Well, I guess we’ll just have to settle with what we’ve got plus some minor changes. We made it to the moon, but we can’t do better with elections.
Some were born in other parts of the United States and have no living relatives there. Military brats tend to be in this category. They’re often born on or near a base somewhere in this great Republic of ours, and five transfers later, there is no connection with their place of birth other than that’s where their birth certificate lives. -Comment by jsa on beacon hill— 4/18/05 @ 11:35 pm
http://catalog.com/fwcfc/vitalrec.html
Scroll down & click on the state where you were born
That took all of about 2.5 seconds.
The cost?
From a low of $1/document to a high of $25 with most hovering from $5 to $8.
So how much is that carton of cigarettes? Your weekly lottery donation? Supersized Big Mac and Fries? That 6 pack of Corona?
GS,
You don’t need photo ID to deposit a check in your own account.
Plenty of people don’t drive, and don’t need a driver’s license.
Nobody cards a 70-year old in a bar.
My grandmother never had to show ID to buy her cigarettes.
Casinos don’t card the busloads of senior citizens that show up each day.
Same for alcohol. And elderly folks might have someone else doing their shopping.
Not everyone is a jetsetter; some people have never even been on a plane.
I can take money out of my bank’s ATMs without photo ID
I can buy stuff online without photo ID
7 out of 10 Americans don’t have a passport, and don’t travel overseas.
Not everyone feels the need to go buy a gun. You can keep the one you’ve got without photo ID.
I can leave my home without a wallet full of ID, or even an American Express card, and I’m not neurotic about it.
…so it’s certainly possible to get by without photo ID, especially if you’re old (and a high percentage of old people vote).
And when I have already registered to vote (a process that requires photo ID, does it not?) and I go to vote—to exercise not a convenience or a privilege but a fundamental right—I don’t need to have any ID with me.
$5 for a fake id.
Diggindud
I can’t cash a check without ID.
I can’t drive without ID.
I can’t go into a tavern or lounge without ID
I can’t buy tabacco without ID
I can’t gamble without ID
I can’t buy alcohol without ID
I can’t fly without ID
I can’t take money out of my bank without ID
I can’t buy online without ID
I can’t get out of this country without ID
I can’t get back in this country without ID
I can’t go to any other country without ID
I can’t get out of any other country without ID
I can’t buy a gun without ID
I can’t leave my home without my wallet full of ID!
But you could do every one of these things, with a fake id, you could make in about 5 minutes.
They busted mexicans over here a couple years ago, with a couple thousand fake id’s.
I Rest my case! So there is no reason to attempt to secure our sacred voting rights! Let’s just quit trying and start appointing leaders. Put the stack on the King County Elections department, fire all the election people, and we will all wait for a puff of white smoke!
Give me a damn break!
Jeff B. @ 53
You’re welcome to your opinion, but please don’t misquote me. I’ve never said there weren’t flaws in this election. It’s true that Republicans have put out vast amounts of bullshit about this election, but it’s also true there were flaws.
Regarding counting errors, I’m not sure where you’re trying to go with this. Each recount picked up additional ballots that were not previously counted. Very, very few ballots were switched from one candidate to another, and almost none from Rossi to Gregoire or vice versa; what little of that there was, was almost entirely in and out of the Libertarian column. What mainly happened in King County is the counting machines didn’t read some ballots in the first pass through the machines. This happens for several reasons, such as torn edges, smudges, stray ink marks, etc. There were also some ballots mislaid in King County that were added by the canvassing board in the hand recount.
Despite the large number of King County ballots, it is unlikely that any counting errors occurred in the hand recount. There was no possibility of machine reading errors in this recount because machines weren’t used. Every ballot was scrutinized by a Republican and a Democrat, and their counts had to agree, or their tally was thrown out and they had to count the ballots again. If their counts still didn’t agree the second time, that precinct was given to a different counting team. Party observers also watched election workers add up the tallies from the counting teams. Any counter could send any ballot to the canvassing board for decision, no questions asked. Under these procedures, it would be difficult for the count to be off by even 1 vote.
That kind of accuracy was needed, because after the other 38 counties had reported their counts and King County finished its hand count, Gregoire was only 10 votes ahead of Rossi. The rest of her 129-vote victory margin came from the tabulation of ballots that had been sent to the canvassing board.
The accuracy of the hand recount is not disputed by the parties. The controversies involve mislaid ballots, improperly handled provisional ballots, and illegal votes. These are not counting errors. They are not accounting errors, either.
Alan,
I am already a little older, My mother died of ALS, I work with totally disabled ALS people. I know extremely well of these concerns! Voting is a major obligation of mine and theirs. None of them can travel or live without ID. It is a must!
Pet Poop @ 54
How long did it take you to find that web site? More than 2.5 seconds, I’d wager.
When I tried to get a birth certificate a few years ago, it took me about 3 hours of on-line work to figure out which agency to get it from and what their current address was — and 6 weeks later they returned my check (written for the amount on their web site) without the birth certificate because my check was $1 short (they had failed to change their web site after the free increase).
But that’s not my main point. My father is over 90 and doesn’t own a computer, much less know how to use one. Unless someone does it for him, he’d have to get his birth certificate the old fashioned way. Since he’s confined to a nursing home and doesn’t have a way to do that, he wouldn’t be allowed to vote.
It’s all well and nice that you have a computer and can find things on-line quickly, but a lot of people don’t — and they have as much right to vote as you do.
No, we Democrats are not going to let you Republicans foist your vote-suppression schemes on the elderly, poor, and disabled voters of Washington.
GS @ 57
“Let’s just quit trying and start appointing leaders.”
We did that in 2000 and it doesn’t work worth a damn.
David
My point is not are you carded, or can you find away around the laws, These tasks require ID
I simply ask:
When you leave the house in the morning, do you carry ID
If so
Is it too much trouble to show it
GS @ 59
I just don’t see what problem it solves. Impersonation at the polls just doesn’t happen in our state. Not a single instance reported in this last election.
OK, I stand corrected, it was a model election that any bank would be proud of! The fact that the Judge in Chelan thinks there are enough grounds to hear the case is flawed. We should not worry about illegal felons that voted, we should not worry about the 95 absentees in KC which were not counted, we should not worry about the provisional votes that were run through the machines without verification. Let’s just drop all this and accept the facts that Cristine Gregoire won this election and be happy!
Talk to me after May 23rd!
GS @ 64
“it was a model election that any bank would be proud of!”
Ever work a till, my friend? Try processing 2.8 million transactions, one penny at a time, over a few days. Believe me, you WILL find a few bucks in pennies rolling around on the floor and under the till.
“The fact that the Judge in Chelan thinks there are enough grounds to hear the case is flawed.”
BFD. The law is written to make it easy to mount a challenge, but impose tough standards to overturn the election.
“We should not worry about illegal felons that voted”
Well, I, for one, think we should . . . we need to remove in-eligible ex-felons from the voter roles.
“we should not worry about the 95 absentees in KC which were not counted”
Ummm . . . what did you have in mind? I was thinking that we could have county workers double check absentee envelopes in the days following the election so that they can be properly counted.
“we should not worry about the provisional votes that were run through the machines without verification.”
Not much to do about them now (unless we can uncover voting fraud and use the information to overturn the election). But, we can VERY easily prevent this problem in the future.
“Let’s just drop all this and accept the facts that Cristine Gregoire won this election”
Sure. Since she did, in fact, win the election, I think that is a good idea.
I Rest my case! So there is no reason to attempt to secure our sacred voting rights! Let’s just quit trying and start appointing leaders. Put the stack on the King County Elections department, fire all the election people, and we will all wait for a puff of white smoke!
Give me a damn break!
Comment by GS
The point is, 1. The problem you are trying to solve, does not exist.
2. If it somehow did become a problem, making everyone show an id at the poll, is not going to solve it, as this is the easiest place to cheat.
Though the motivation to cheat in this way, isn’t clear, why would someone try to swing an election in this way again?
Right, they wouldn’t.
jsa @ 45
With the exception of certain older adults who have been in the country for 15 or 20 years, the ability to speak, read & write in English is MANDATORY for citizenship.
see: http://uscis.gov/graphics/serv.....eneral.htm
Now, the question could be raised as to just how much “ordinary” language one must know. Clearly, it would be a violation of a defendant’s rights if a juror could barely say, “My name is…” in English. I believe that if someone does not have a solid grasp of English, they shouldn’t be citizens — and, consequently, be allowed to vote. That doesn’t mean they can’t live here, work here and have most of the benefits of citizenship. My grandmother had a green card her entire life, but you would never know it from the way she lived her life and participated in society.
Mark @ 68
“With the exception of certain older adults who have been in the country for 15 or 20 years, the ability to speak, read & write in English is MANDATORY for citizenship.”
There are MANY more exceptions than that. There are plenty of U.S. born citizens who cannot speak English all that well: some, born in the U.S. but raised in a non-English speaking country; some born and raised in the U.S., but raised in a non-English speaking community.
Alan @58,
If all the documentation of the election was correct, the accounting perfect, etc. then why would KC Elections have made this statement as quoted from an April 7th Seattle Times article?
“King County election officials said a key document accounting for absentee ballots in the November election was so flawed it was virtually meaningless.
The Mail Ballot Report, which showed every absentee ballot accounted for, didn’t report the correct number of ballots returned by voters. Instead, it simply added the number of ballots counted and the number rejected to show a perfectly matching number of ballots returned.”
I find all the hand wringing over election controls seriously humorous in light of the push to have unverifiable, untrackable, certainly manipulatable votes cast as in Snohomish County.
Let’s put all the responsibility on the individual voter to prove who they are while the state foists Diebold machines on us at every turn…
Talk about give me a break! ;(
Don—@ 43-
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! I knew you would start bawling like Berendt when you found out your high-class attorneys screwed up BIG-TIME.
What kind of attorney were you Don?? A pretty bad one if you think it is your job to also present the other sides case on a timely basis!!!!
Is this a new DonSux twist to litigation??
The R’s MUST be required to present the D’s case fully and on a timely basis! Yeah, right!
There are reasonable deadlines.
The DEMS knowingly decided to contest the R’s allegations & evidence.
The DEMS knowingly failed to bring forth a timely action allowing them to present evidence that Gregoire was somehow damaged in other County’s because the Dems feared anything they brought forth might actually work against them when the Judge looked at the questionable outcome.
Now the Dems are saying, “HOLY SHIT, the R’s have a great case. We need to pull out all stops to counter that!!!”
Too late DonSux…too late.
AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!
Mark @ 68
I believe I could speak enough of at least 5 different languages to qualify for citienship were I to chose to do so.
It think what most are trying to get across here is that those that are truly bent on voting illegally will be far more persistent and have a far easier time of gaining the *required* docuentation than those legal voters that simply don’t fit the norm you and I live by.
Were that not the case why would stolen identity be so seemingly easy and pervasive?
Of course that would assume that there really is/was a problem with votes being cast under false IDs…
Pet Poop @ 54How long did it take you to find that web site? More than 2.5 seconds, I’d wager.-Comment by Alan— 4/19/05 @ 12:27 am
Wrongo AGAIN! numbnuts.
I typed: ‘state depts of vital statistics’ into Yahoo search and up it popped – very first one on the list.
Alan @47
Re-read your post, then ask yourself what “restoring voter confidence” should mean in a state that is nearly equally divided between two candidates at least on a governor’s election.
Take a few moments to reflect upon “restoring voter confidence.”
If this concept means nothing to you, fine. If it is a worthy goal can it ever be achieved by ignoring a large part of the concerns of some voters, just because they happen to be republicans? I don’t think so, but your post indicates you just don’t care.
Your post implies that what republicans are concerned about isn’t worth considering. If republicans don’t have confidence in the elections is it soley their problem and not a problem for society.
I feel that it is a problem for society when a large segment of the population does not have faith in the electorial process. It can lead to some pretty bad outcomes, which is where I think we are headed.
Likewise, some of the County election officials who are encouraging individuals to be responsible for making challenges to the election roles rather than taking responsibilty themselves are encouraging the formation of what use to be called vigilante groups.
You and Goldie may feel very smug that the Dem’s trounced the republican requested items associated with election reform, but I am telling you what a lot of Republicans in this state are “hearing” is going to send this state down the wrong road.
Assuming that the elections were fair, the Dem’s in Olympia have the votes & propely elected leaders to set policy and as such good citizens should be bound by the results and laws they pass.
Look to various former communist countries as to what happens when a large enough portion of the population believes that the government is not legitimate and that people must take matters into their own hands. Not a pretty picture.
Win team, win at any cost, has real results.
Bob…
I’m not Alan but my concerns about *election reform* is that the reforms actually address real problems and have real solutions.
Assuming that the ID requirement is what you are speaking to, I don’t recall many votes being cast in the closest election on record that were being voted under assumed identities.
I do recall that time was a problem getting overseas ballots counted properly…why then are the Reps not for moving the primary date?
I do recall provisional ballots being run through machines improperly which I thought had been addressed by the colored paper.
I do recall felons voting erroneously as a problem which had been addressed in the common database.
Did I miss what it is that the Reps feel is being squashed by the Dems in this legislature?
I agree completely with your statement of *then ask yourself what “restoring voter confidence” should mean in a state that is nearly equally divided between two candidates at least on a governor’s election.*
Since we agree the state is equally divided, as is the nation, should we also not agree that partisanship should be set aside in the effort to try to find some common ground insofar as election reform and that neither side will get everything it wishes?
Are the Reps willing to do same?
As to your reference to the ugliness of the fate of communism, that’s rather a strawman as you yourself said we are a divided electorate bickering amongst ourselves not a united electorate railing against the government…those sorts of entries only serve to inflame rather than enhance discussion, don’t you think?
G. Davis @ 76
You ask many good questions for which I don’t have answers.
I don’t claim to “speak for republicans.” I will allow you to read what “republicans” have said for themselves.
http://www.thenewstribune.com/.....7191c.html
From the story, it appears citizenship verification, photo ID, mail in ballot only elections seem to be some of the biggest issues. The story tries to play down the partisan aspects, which I applaud. I have read the Democratic Party talking points on the issue of election reform and understand its perspective.
You ask if these were “true” problems that need to be fixed. I will respond by saying that in this modern media age, perception is the “public truth.” If these items are perceived to the problems then to restore voter confidence they should be resolved.
I hope republicans will be willing to take part in the process of resolving voter confidence. I see them constructively pointing things out. In the above article why was something that republicans wanted and that Reed and Chris G. wanted pulled at the last moment? That hardly seems like Republicans not wanting to be bi-partisan.
As to legitimate governments and my comments about the former Communist Countries being a strawman argument, I have two grandparents who came to this country from what is now the Ukraine. In my opinion it is not good for Dean Logan and others to tell people that citizens are responsible for purging voter roles of the dead, of felons, of out of state voters, and of illegal aliens. This is begging for those fed up to form vigilante committees to challenge voters in an efficient massive basis. If those same folks don’t believe that those holding power are legitimate, then it is a small step to an orange revolution in our state. You may laugh, but I don’t think it is beyond the realm of what could happen and I find that frightening.
Voter confidence is a cornerstone to legitimacy of government. I think you have mischaracterized what happened in various former eastern block countries. It was not a united electorate railing against government, it was a divided electorate, where one side got feed up and had no faith in the legitimacy of government, cause massive changes.
OK Bob, if as you say, *From the story, it appears citizenship verification, photo ID, mail in ballot only elections seem to be some of the biggest issues* please tell me how the first two aren’t negated by the last one…who knows who actually casts a mail in ballot? And what of the ATM like voting machines…who really voted for whom on those dang things? We can make it harder for folks to vote or we can look for ways to make the system that works for many more reliable. How do we do that if we continue to holler at each other, not give an inch either way?
As to your fears of an orange revolution I would agree something revolutionary like is certainly possible in the climate we have today…we just happen to apparently disagree with which side might initiate same…I see and hear *blue* voters every day disbelieving what they are seeing and experiencing from our national electeds and those that represent the Reps in our state.
I see a civil war before I see an *orange* revolution as I do think there is a distint electorate divide about each other AND concerning direction that scares me more than how either side of the electorate feels about the other side’s leaders.
Neither is good but I’d almost rather deal with your scenario than mine…tearing at each other is the worst fate a republic/democracy can face in my ever so humble opinion…at least with your scenario there would be one common enemy for those of us that hold our freedoms dearly.
One thing I’m fairly certain about is that nothing is going to change until folks can once again recognize that others have differing opinions that are worthy of listening to and make some sort of concerted effort to break down the walls that have built up between we the people…the elected ones will follow our suit not the other way around…
Just some thoughts…
G Davis @ 78
I think we’re a long way from civil war. Conditions preceding the Civil War of 1861-65 form a basis for comparison. The north and south were as different as could be. The north’s economy was based on manufacturing and trade; the south’s agricultural economy depended on slave labor. The north could afford to support abolition; the south could not afford abolition. These states were brought together into union by drafting a tie vote on the slavery issue into the Constitution. The number of free and slave states was exactly equal, and the south’s population was inflated by counting slaves as 3/5 of an elector so southern states would have equal representation in Congress. As the country grew, the admission of new states became an explosive issue, because it threatened to upset the balance; and Kansas, the next state in line for admission, became the focal point of debate in Congress and the scene of bloody clashes and massacres committed by both sides. Then combination of John Brown’s failed raid at Harper’s Ferry to get arms for southern slaves (whom Brown) intended to lead in an uprising) together with the election of a pro-abolition president convinced the south that an acceptable solution was not possible within the framework of the Constitution’s political institutions. Their intent was merely to secede; the decision for war was made by Lincoln, who decided to use force to keep the rebellious states in the union.
The closest thing to the slavery issue existing today is the abortion issue. Divisive as it is, this issue lacks the dangers of the slavery issue because it doesn’t pit geographic regions against each other, nor threaten the economic survival of a substantial population. Although violence against abortion clinics appears to be more than isolated incidents — it has some of the character of a systematic campaign — it has not provoked counter-violence and the general public is content to let government handle it as a law enforcement problem. No region feels threatened by this issue, and there is no constituency for a civil war over the issue.
Let’s imagine for a moment that liberals’ worst fear came true, and civil liberties were suspended and a dictatorship was imposed on our country. While many citizens would object, there probably wouldn’t be armed resistence unless the government starting killing its political opponents in large numbers, and even then organizing a resistance would be extraordinarily difficult compared to 1861, when all that was required was for existing state governments to proclaim rebellion and order their militias into the field against the central government. The other possibility is if something happened to inflame partisan factions to begin shooting at each other and it snowballed beyond the ability of the authorities to control. You would then probably get anarchy and chaos, rather than organized warfare. Today’s political disagreements seem very far removed from such developments.
Thanks for the history lesson Alan, but I think you missed my point…
As I said in my previous entry, I simply see a civil war like action BEFORE I see an *orange* like revolution since I see derision between the largest two sides of the electorate as so inflamed that listening/working with each other seems almost impossible…and if we can’t get together as neighbors and talk things out, how the heck are our glorious elected ones ever going to budge from their respective entrenchments?
What you’re assuming is that I see a civil war like action as imminent…I don’t…but I do see it happening before one side rises up against the elected ones while the other side sits by and watches.
In short, I see the electorate as responsible for changing the intemperate political climate of today with the elected ones following our suit rather than the other way around.
The nation’s populace is simply too evenly divided philosophically for the elected ones to summon the balls to walk away from their respective voting camps…it will be up to us to send the the message that enough backbiting is enough and we need to get back to the business of what made this country the greatest on earth to begin with…
Shorter yet, we are all responsible for our country…we all need to get off our asses and work at getting it back…that’s all…
Oh and Alan, the closest thing I see to slavery in today’s political climate is not abortion but choice…
Choice about everything…our bodies, religion, land use, marriage, child rearing, education, entertainment, on and on…
Choice and self determination is what made this country great to begin with…we cannot allow it to be regulated away.
You are invited to visit some relevant pages in the field of…
You are invited to check out the sites about.
adjusters?blooded:naked:Wheatland icon antibacterial icebox
revenger!Sherwin ballgown?phonemes Hackett baler lags enlarging!
forestalling.disbursing enlargement Rome willful,throat:Eurydice Boca,
submodule!thermosphere ravine bankruptcies!reared!tramps engaging pound chronicled,
desktop reptiles reanalyzes captures Adonis.apostrophe Christianizing implicate vibrating
desktop reptiles reanalyzes captures Adonis.apostrophe Christianizing implicate vibrating
strongly contest stays.levee Hersey,.
dizziness boarder outskirts delusions!disrupting turnips problems
terminated Powell attiring prowling reprogram waiverable …
boat:fogging?fathered Cornwall!homeowner tardiness flowed