Via Charles, ThinkProgress has the story of a Florida man who will escape prosecution for fatally shooting an unarmed man in the back, under the state’s dangerously stupid “Stand Your Ground” law:
In early July, 20-year-old Colt Thriemer shot dead a one-time friend in a Wal-Mart parking lot, saying he feared for his life. Witnesses gathered for a truck meet that night say victim Thomas James Brown, 21, was walking away toward his car when Thriemer fired ten shots. Some say Brown had threatened to kill Thriemer over the course of several weeks. The story as told by prosecutors in a detailed legal memo suggests drug transactions, addiction, and monetary debts all played a role in the scenario leading up to Brown’s death.
But these facts will never play out in a trial, because prosecutors have decided not to charge Thriemer citing Florida’s Stand Your Ground law.
“The Stand Your Ground statute makes no exception from the immunity because Brown may have been walking away from Thriemer at the time the deadly force was used,” the memo from the State Attorney’s office states. “The Stand Your Ground law does not require Thriemer to wait until Brown in fact retrieved a gun before he fired. Under the current state of the law and the facts of this case, Thriemer was legally allowed to use deadly force based on a reasonable belief that his life was in danger and that he was about to become the victim of an armed robbery.”
Okay. So let’s play this legal standard out to its logical conclusion. If, under Stand Your Ground, a reasonable belief that your life is in danger gives you the right to shoot an unarmed man—say, me—in the back, then my reasonable belief that you believe that I present a mortal danger to you, should give me the right to stand my ground and preemptively shoot you first. Note that your belief that I present a danger doesn’t even have to be reasonable—I just need to reasonably believe that you believe it reasonable, to give me a reason to shoot first under Stand Your Ground!
Of course, if you were to believe that I might act upon a belief that you believed that I posed a mortal threat to you, then that might be all the reason you need to shoot me before I preemptively shoot you. And so on.
In this scenario, the very belief that the other party might stand their ground becomes a reasonable defense under Stand Your Ground. And if you don’t believe that the “I believed he believed I was going to shoot him” defense won’t inevitably be tested in court, then you don’t know Florida.
According to a news story I found on the internet, Thriemer owed Brown money, and Brown was looking for Thriemer when he pulled into the Walmart parking lot, found Thriemer there, got out of his vehicle, confronted Thriemer, and punched Thriemer in the face. Thriemer then shot Brown once, and when Brown turned around, shot Brown several more times in the back.
This probably would not be a close call for prosecutors in most other jurisdictions. Although the victim, Brown, physically attacked the shooter, Thriemer, you are ordinarily not allowed to use deadly force to defend yourself against an ordinary assault. It would depend on what Brown said to Thriemer, though. For example, if Brown said, “I’m gonna kill you, motherfucker!” then Thriemer might have thought his life was in danger. Even so, it would be hard to justify shooting the guy multiple times, or shooting him in the back.
The legal effect of Florida’s Stand-Your-Ground law seems to take borderline cases off the table for prosecution. It’s somewhat analogous to Washington prosecutors deciding years ago not to prosecute homeowners who shoot intruders, even though Washington doesn’t have a “castle” law on its books, because juries simply wouldn’t convict in such cases. Without doubt, Florida prosecutors are looking at jury verdicts in shooting cases — not least, the Trayvon Martin case — and concluding that “on these facts, the jury probably won’t convict, so we’d be wasting our time and resources to try to prosecute this guy.”
Legal cases are always very fact-dependent, and minor factual nuances can change the outcome of a case. So it’s difficult to generalize about the effect of Stand Your Ground on Florida prosecutorial decisions, other than I think we can safely say it makes it harder to prosecute marginal cases and more shooters are going to walk. This case doesn’t demonstrate that SYG gives shooters an unbridled license to kill, and it doesn’t make you fair game for nutzos packing heat who shoot for no reason. The main lesson here is, if you’re in Florida and don’t want to get shot, keep the dispute verbal and don’t start shoving or throwing punches, which is a good rule to follow anywhere, regardless of what the local jurisdiction’s laws are.
Wonder what will happen when one of those open carry nutjobs gets shot when they walk into a store or restaurant or public gathering packing an assault rifle because someone feared for their life. If you don’t have to wait for someone to even have a gun to shoot them, in the back even, surely a “good guy with a gun” wouldn’t be required to wait for someone to start spraying a crowd with an AK-47.
Would the Stand Your Ground law also include being able to use a Samurai sword to rapidly decapitate loudmouf’ Wiesenheimers?
@3. Of course not silly. Stand your ground only applies to guns. Killing any other way is murder, but if you use a gun, it’s freebie.
@3 has a good point. Does ‘Stand your ground’ cover any use of deadly force? Knife, strangle-hold, poison?
Roger Rabbitt — good analysis, but I do have one question:
“The main lesson here is, if you’re in Florida and don’t want to get shot, keep far away from anywhere anyone might be packing, because you could take a stray round or two.” (Fixed it for you.)
Is there an app for all of the Floridian places where one has a good chance of getting accidentally shot?
@6…
How do you know who is ‘carrying’?
This is the desired outcome of the Gun Fetish Death Cult.
The NRA now exists solely to help their benefactors the gun manufacturers sell more firearms and ammunition.
The general populace becomes terrorized by the Gun Fetish death Cultists and a once stable society is thrown into chaos.
8
Which “stable society” are you talking about? Certainly NOT America’s!
How do you know who is ‘carrying’?
I don’t. That’s part of my point. A person driving on a nearby highway could get hit by a stray bullet from a parking-lot altercation, like the one described in this post.
@6 My advice is don’t go to Florida if you don’t have to, and you certainly don’t want to live there. And not just because of their crazy gun laws. Florida also has small towns that live off vicious speed traps.
Puddy goes to Florida all the time you moronic NoBalls IDIOT Wabbit. Mrs Puddy has siblings, nieces and nephews all up and down the coast. Why are DUMMOCRETINS scared to visit Florida? Apparently y’all love confrontation hence y’all scared of the environment!
“While at WalMart, Brown was speaking with Thriemer when Torres said she saw Brown punch Thriemer in the face. According to the e-mail, she told detectives that Thriemer then reached into his truck, pulled out a gun and, shot Brown. When Brown turned around, Thriemer continued to shoot. According to the unnamed source, at least nine (9) more shots were heard being fired.”
Interesting read here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/235634104/Brown-Memo
It seems the real problem here may be that in considering the concept that “the best thing against a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun”, there’s a failure to define “good” and “bad”. It would appear that Brown/Thriemer in fact involves a confrontation between a couple of real scumbags. The other issue this brings up is that with ten or eleven rounds being fired in a crowd, it must only be through divine providence that one or more innocents didn’t get shot.
If this is what the folks at ALEC who wrote the SYG template view as a better world, then a pox upon all of their houses.
@9…
…well before Republican induced poverty and wage insecurity this country was a lot more stable.
@12 “Puddy goes to Florida all the time”
Why am I not surprised? It’s your sort of hangout. After all, Allen West is there.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/201.....more-guns/
Read the rest. It’s all right there in a nice neat package.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/201.....e-is-real/
More “love” from the Gun Fetish Death Cult.
(the ‘dad’ looks like Ned Flanders…LOLOL)
The less qualified someone is to have a gun, the more likely they are to have one. There also seems to be an inverse correlation between emotional stability and packing heat.
Breaking News — Porch Shooter Found Guilty of Murder
The 55-year-old white guy who shot and killed a 19-year-old black girl for banging on his door for help after being in an early-morning car accident has been convicted of second-degree murder by a Detroit jury.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/porch.....d=24877849
Roger Rabbit Commentary: Good. Juries should send a message that the Second Amendment isn’t a license to kill. This jury did.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/201.....oaded-gun/
More sickness from the Gun Fetish Death Cult