The Gregoire/Eyman bill passed the House 86-8, while an amendment proposed by Sen. Eric Oemig that would have put it up for referendum in 2008 failed to pass through the Senate Ways & Means Committee. I think Postman is dead on in summing things up:
The special session is a victory for Republicans, those in the Legislature and the one running for governor, Dino Rossi. They were out front calling for the emergency session and the governor and Democratic lawmakers followed.
Republicans win by portraying Democrats as weak, and it sure doesn’t help us when we prove them right.
Are the Dems weak? That’s a topic for another time.
Face it, the people are tired of the continual increase of taxes coupled with elected officials and the court saying that the voting public is too stupid to know what we voted for.
This whole “bankability” aspect is BS pure and simple.
Try running a business and billing your customers under these terms. You be sued out of existence or shut down by some government entity. **That ironically could be funded by the same.**
I don’t see this as a Dem Repub issue.
I see it as a big, unaccountable gov’t vs the people issue.
The fact that this can be portrayed as the Gregoire/Eyman bill without anyone batting an eye is a pretty good sign that priorities are off.
I’m disappointed in Gregoire today.
Goldy
I have said much the same for some time.
Ther real issue is how to dwe
1. elect dems who are NOT feckless? You can not change pople minds by just saying “trust me!” BTW one hting I like about Burner is she seems to have that ability to teach and lead as well as “represent.”
2. I there any way to get through to CG? It is very hard for me to understand how it can be that she thinks all she needs is a better director of communications. She COULD win big .. not just in votes but in improving things, but she needs to do something more than govern.
It is not hard for me to imagine that DR will attract such a person. FWIW I predict DR is gong to run a Clinton campaign, co-opting CG on LIBERAL issues! Just imagine DR coming out for a regional transportation plan with fixed “business” goals by some date certain! Worse? Imagine him campaigning on tax reform!!!!!!!
If he has the smarts, he can do all that and still keep control of the rabid right.
“Try running a business and billing your customers under these terms.”
Actually, this is standard operating procedure for the private business sector. Every salesman tries to pad the deal with hidden charges. Every bank and credit card company gouges its customers with hidden fees. Every new car, mortgage, or other large consumer contract contains fine print that costs consumers money. And the sneaky businesses who cheat their customers with fine print and hidden charges try to collect every penny.
To pretend that business is somehow morally superior to government is disingenuous, to say the least. If business was honest, we could get by with a lot less government. Unfortunately, human greed ensures that we will need government regulators and consumer protection agencies for the foreseeable future.
Republicans can crow all they want about “protecting the taxpayers,” but the ugly truth is they’re the protecters of the regressive tax system that puts vulnerable taxpayers at financial risk to begin with. If Republicans would stop obstructing tax reform in this state, we wouldn’t have to go through all these contortions. Our citizens clearly want the government services that tax revenues pay for. The problem is not spending. It’s the distribution of the tax burden. And when it comes to correcting those faults, Republicans are obstructionists, pure and simple. Republicans are champions of the status quo under which those least able to pay get taxed the most.
Roger Rabbit: That is NOT the business standard.
Just because YOU think it is does not make it so.
“Vunerable taxpayers”
Puleeeeeez
The world is full of victims waiting to be saved by rabbits named Roger.
roger…are you really this naive?
“To pretend that business is somehow morally superior to government is disingenuous, to say the least. If business was honest, we could get by with a lot less government. Unfortunately, human greed ensures that we will need government regulators and consumer protection agencies for the foreseeable future.”
at least business is accountable……..you sure can’t say that for the government can you? and do you realize that the same people that couldn’t make it in business are the ones that are in government…lower levels especially.and you want government regulators??? more of them??? human greed….uh huh. and these “government regulators” you spout off about aren’t they also human?
you are a fool.
and from the sound of your post an unsuccessful one at that. anytime someone states that the government will make it all better i know i am looking at a very scared failure.
look…life can be scary and unpredictable for everyone. the people that make enough [by very hard work and constant worry and risk i might add]to not have to worry so much [which is all money is good for]aren’t LUCKY…they are really hard workers. so get off your lazy ass and get to work.you know…it’s very true that the only time you lose is when you don’t get back up and fight again.
why don’t you ask your friend seattlejew about the government regulators. he knows what i am talking about. how much work do you think he actually does? studying a disease???? do you think us taxpayers might not be getting our money’s worth for all those generous grants he plays with? hmmmm? cause he’s an expert on politics [ha!] but sadly, not on his specialty. why don’t you ask him how many gene therapies have been produced? how many drug companies asses he kisses all the time…and be sure to ask him about the perks he gets. all very interesting.
but, caution, roger……it might rip those rosy little commie shades right off your eyes………
Is Oemig still in the Legislature? I would have thought he’d be beamed up by the mother ship by now.
roger the complete commie……….
tax reform in this state= state income taxes.
only a complete hack like roger and all his lefty ever-failure pals could call ADDING taxes reform.
geez roger…..do you really think this crap works anymore? because you guys got hammered in the last election.IN WASHINGTON STATE for cripes sake…best known for it’s ugly hairy women and really stupid lefties that dream of the 60’s and think if they just want it enough [no work required] they will be peachy.
i thought you wanted the same thing THE PEOPLE wanted. uh huh.
no….as a failure who is a wanna be closet elitist you have once again fronted yourself out, cause YOU JUST KNOW BETTER, RIGHT?………FOOL.
if you are so smart then why are you living such a crappy life?
One more betrayel of his constitutents by Sen. Eric Oemig, D-Taliban.
The 45th District will love how he sold the taxpayers down the river of rapacious government spending.
Referendum? To vote on what the people passed by well over 210,000 votes in 2001?
Whatever victory there may be here isn’t Dino Rossi’s, it’s the people’s! Despite the best efforts of the big-government, high-taxes, hate-democaracy left, the express will of the people governs.
All this back-alley, back-channel, back-biting opposition to legislatively enacting 747 only serves to increase the level of the already growing suspicion against conniving politicians like Sen. Eric Oemig, D-Karl Marx Stadt, who, when next he runs as a centrist – a clear violation of the tack-to-the-left dictates of the netroots/DailyKus/HA and Political Commisar Goldy’s campaign manifesto – will be reminded how heavily he’s pandered to the extreme left on any number of issues.
The Piper
“The problem is not spending. It’s the distribution of the tax burden”
This is where the ideological differences begin.
“Republicans are champions of the status quo under which those least able to pay get taxed the most.”
Except that the Democrats have been running the show for how long now?……Sorry, your pathetic argument that the poor victim majority party just can’t change the system because of Republicans is a joke.
On a national level, we are already a a point where nearly 50% of wage earners DON’T PAY TAXES…
http://www.irs.gov
Sam Adams: It’s refreshing to see someone else who thinks and doesn’t accept the Pelletizer’s (TM) pellets in #4 & #5. Many simple malleable minds here who are left accept just about anything/everything Pelletizer (TM) says
@12
“The problem is not spending. It’s the distribution of the tax burden”
This is where the ideological differences begin.
Actually, it’s both. Wasteful spending and a regressive tax structure are both problems in this state.
Except that the Democrats have been running the show for how long now?……Sorry, your pathetic argument that the poor victim majority party just can’t change the system because of Republicans is a joke.
It’s because of the voters. This bill that is being passed in Olympia will be devastating to many of the people who are cheering for it. Democrats aren’t voting for it because they think it’s a good idea, they’re voting for it because it could cost them their jobs. They know it’s a bad idea, but frankly, they won’t be affected by it as much as the people who are demanding it. As I’ve always said about the tax-whineys, Democrats think they’re stupid, Republicans know they’re stupid.
On a national level, we are already a a point where nearly 50% of wage earners DON’T PAY TAXES…
Hey, can you provide a more specific link than to the IRS home page for this “fact”?
Christmas Ghost: Do you realize there are 53 million single women and women with children who are drinking the federal democrat kool-aid salivating at a Moonbat! freebies from Hilary, Barack and John? These people are the ones expecting a government hand-out if one of these win 2009. This is the scary point!
Hey Lee,
Here it is…
most current data.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/05in06tr.xls
@15
By government hand-out, do you mean a government that isn’t thoroughly incompetent and dangerously corrupt? Or are you just a complete idiot?
(Save your energy, I know the answer)
Hey Lee,
most current data.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/05in06tr.xls
I’ve posted these numbers before in response to Rabbit and his incessant and cliched reiteration of old-left class envy crappola. Obviously, it’s time to post them again to destroy the canard that the tax burden falls too heavily on “the poor.”
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi /04in06tr.xls
96.70% of all taxes are paid by the top 50% of wage earners.
84.86% of all taxes are paid by the top 25% of wage earners.
69.19% of all taxes are paid by the top 10% of wage earners.
57.13% of all taxes are paid by the top 5% of wage earners.
36.89% of all taxes are paid by the top 1% of wage earners.
Again, this is from IRS generated data for 2004.
Also, the so-called “regressive” nature of the sales tax? Given that it’s not applied to food and prescriptions, every penny of sales tax paid is in the complete control of the taxpayer.
Don’t want to pay tax on beer? Don’t buy beer. Don’t want to pay tax on a new iPod? Don’t buy one.
Don’t want to pay tax on a new rabbit gun? Buy it anyway, and I’ll pay the damn tax!
The Piper
Sam Adams at 6:
Sorry, but if you follow your basic Adam Smith laws of economics, and throw in a little Darwinism “survival of the fittest”, you will find that companies will invariably attempt to wring the most money out of the consumer and provide the least amount of product/service as possible. While competition might provide something of a restraining influence, that only works as long as the other companies are willing to play by the same rules. When they find that the rules are not in force, or more likely “not enforced”, they will skirt the boundaries in order to gain an advantage over the competition. Once one business does that, the others must necessarily follow suit, or die.
That is why the government must provide at least some level of regulation which makes for a fair playing field, and one which does not unfairly pass their costs onto others (such as pollution, etc.). This oversight actually benefits business as a whole, as it increases consumer confidence in the dealing with the businesses.
We might fairly argue about what level of oversight government might take, or what specific areas might be restricted. But the fact that you don’t think this is the norm for business shows that you have become accostomed to a business environment with at least some level of regulation.
christmasghost: “at least business is accountable……..you sure can’t say that for the government can you? and do you realize that the same people that couldn’t make it in business are the ones that are in government…lower levels especially.and you want government regulators??? more of them???”
Are you delusional, dishonest, or both? Government’s are far more accountable than are businesses. Government is more transparent and subject to little things called elections. When businesses fail, we tend to see evaporation of assets, dissolutions of corporations, and bankruptcies. Shareholders, consumers, and employees get left holding the empty bag. Ever heard of Enron or Worldcom? How about Tyco? It is the size of an entity that influences its efficiency and productivity, not the nature of the entity. A big business has all the cronyism, inefficiency, inflexibility, of any large governmental unit, if not more. Your unfettered faith in corporations is amusing. Keeping your head in the sand may be comforting, but makes you look silly when you express yourself.
@19…RHP6033…
You obviously haven’t spent much time in business, have you? If you had, you would know something about customer service and genuine competition.
Seriously…what do you do for a living? Do you have much interaction with customers?
All this adulation of government…amazing! And fear of the private sector…again, amazing, if not paranoid.
Come to think of it…this explains why very few sales/marketing professionals are lefties. They know better than to buy into garbonzo beans like that generally posted at HA. Optimists and go-getters by nature, they’re out there every day meeting the needs of customers and bending over backwards to make them happy.
The Piper
@18 Piper zzzzzz
What are you trying to say?
Suppose we list the data this way:
99. % of all people owning two or more homes are in the top 10% of wage earners but pay only ….
or 99.99% of all people owning megayachts, are in the top .0001% of the wage earners but pay only 1% (or wahtever!).
A dollar earned by a 50,000 wage earner is worth a huge amount more, in percent of disposable income than a dollar earned by Billy G.
As conservatives keep pointing out the only REAL issue is what you get to take home. So sure, if the super wealthy can get super wealthier WHILE everyone benefits that might be cool. The opposite, however is also true, if paying more taxes makes the rich guy richer by letting him live in a cool, money earning place, then he should not care toe fuck if he pays 97% of all taxed or 45%.
Lee@16: Let’s see if your idiot gene raises it’s claws
1) Who pays for the “free” health care proposed by those three lefty presidential challengers?
2) Who pays for other “investments” proposed by the same three?
3) Generally where do taxes/fees get raised first? Cigarettes, gas, etc.
4) What kills yearly collected IRS tax revenue?
5) Who continues the class envy argument?
Piper, you dipshit, the statistics to which you refer deal with income tax, which is in fact NOT the only tax that we pay in the United States, contrary to the statement “96.70% of all taxes are paid by the top 50% of wage earners.” You cherry-picked the single most progressive tax that we have in this country and used it to prove (incorrectly) your point that our tax system is not regressive. Taxes like property and payroll taxes fall heavily on the poor, and most Americans pay more in payroll tax than in income tax. But I wouldn’t expect you to know that.
@19
I don’t know anyone who is for a non-regulated free market system. I think the differences obviously reside in the level of regulation.
From my point of view, the least practical amount.
As to “attempt to wring the most money out of the consumer and provide the least amount of product/service as possible.”, seems a bit negative no?
I mean what is wrong with making a profit? Providing goods and services, folks want and desire, at a price and service level that keeps the customer coming back?
A business that doesn’t provide good service, doesn’t usually live long….So I guess I’m saying that the consumer is not a poor victim waiting and willing for the abuse of business, rather the consumer is an empowered entity that carries considerable weight with its spending decisions.
Proud Leftist: When a government program fails what happens? You throw more money at it.
For instance – War on Poverty has costs the US what?
As of late October 2007, the federal government has spent $460 billion of our dollars on bombs, America has spent over $11 TRILLION on the “war” on poverty.
Now walk through the Rainier Valley or MLK Way. This has been a big disservice to my people over the last 42 years.
@22
Steve,
It helps to understand that these people aren’t very good with numbers to begin with.
@17
That chart only deals with federal income tax. Wage earners still pay a number of different taxes on goods and services. Maybe you meant something different, but that’s not what you said, and I assumed you meant to say something meaningful.
@18
The percentages you list are actually less skewed than the incomes of individuals.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/1...../index.htm
The wealthiest 1% of Americans earned 21% of all the nation’s income. As a result, it’s really not much of an outrage at all that they pay such a high percentage of the taxes.
@21
I’ve spent 15 years in the private sector and I don’t hesitate to say that there’s very little difference between a corporation’s ability to deliver on a particular goal and a government agency’s ability. It all comes down to accountability. Many private entities exist in worlds without accountability and many public entities exist in worlds of intense scrutiny. Both government and business can be mechanisms for accomplishing things, but either one becomes less efficient when society blindly believes that it’s the superior path.
How about the Education policies Proud Leftist?
We should have the brightest minds in the world, even in the ghetto for the amount of money.
Look at this: http://mjperry.blogspot.com/20.....-high.html
Hello?
@25
A business that doesn’t provide good service, doesn’t usually live long
All motto, no reality. There are number of companies that have been around for decades providing terrible service, but stay alive because they’ve become too entrenched to be uprooted.
@23
1) Who pays for the “free” health care proposed by those three lefty presidential challengers?
Everyone should. Why do so many countries with free health care pay less for it than we do (and repeatedly give their systems higher satisfactory ratings than us)?
2) Who pays for other “investments” proposed by the same three?
People who are smart and understand that when government is transparent and people exercise their right to vote, taxes are an investment (and yes, I’m always skeptical of people being smart).
3) Generally where do taxes/fees get raised first? Cigarettes, gas, etc.
I’m a fan of the idea of using directed taxes to have the people who use certain government services pay for them, but sin taxes (taxes used to discourage certain behaviors) do not work.
4) What kills yearly collected IRS tax revenue?
Defense spending.
5) Who continues the class envy argument?
Idiots like you.
Just so you understand who’s really in charge:
A few years back my wife was working for a major brokerage firm. She relayed to me a conversation a conversation she heard in the hall, between two high-powered brokers. They were laughing among themselves about a recent meeting they had with clients, potential investers in a new fund. The crux of the conversation was that some of the investers were being a bit to uppity, asking too many questions. “Don’t they understand that everything they own will eventually belong to us, they are just putting off the inevitable when they waste our time like that!” one of them joked.
A few months back, when oil prices reached record levels (at the time, since surpassed), I teased Roger Rabbit about his oil investments. With industry executives receiving
hugeenormous bonuses, I argued that these guys were examples of some of the real puppeteers behind the Republican Party. They were never going to let the average stockholder or 401(k) holder recieve the real fruits of such increases. Instead, they would shift it between themselves in the form of salaries, bonuses, stock options, no-bid contracts, fringe benefits, etc., until there is only a modest amount left to pay dividends – just enough to encourage the average invester to continue to send them their money on a regular basis.If you needed proof, here it is: The Republican-controlled Securities and Exchange commission voted today that shareholders have no rights to recieve proxy ballots if the board of directors doesn’t want to give it to them. The board and the governing officers, however, can solicit proxies all they want. Such a ruling represents an enormous shift of power away from the shareholders of large corporations and to the governing board and officers, pretty much allowing the existing boards to rig elections in their favor through targeted distribution of proxy ballots.
http://archives.seattletimes.n.....uery=proxy
#29 see post #26
Puddy @ 26: “When a government program fails what happens? You throw more money at it.”
Unfortunately, you have aptly described a contemporary governmental program, that of the Iraq War. Accountability to some extent came with the throw-the-rascals-out election of 2006. The remarkable intransigence of Bush and Senate Republicans has prevented full accountability. The War on Poverty is not a governmental program. It is a slogan. Some governmental poverty programs have worked, others have not. Innovation sometimes results in failure, and such failure is hardly limited to public entities.
PS at 21 asked:
“You obviously haven’t spent much time in business, have you? If you had, you would know something about customer service and genuine competition.
Seriously…what do you do for a living? Do you have much interaction with customers?”
I’ve been in private business all my working life (which began at age 15, I am 50 now), with the small exception of a couple of work-study jobs while I was in school. I have a bachelor’s and a graduate degree. I currently work for a large international trading company,with most of my time devoted to representing the interests of one large Japanese corporation in relationship with its business partners in the U.S.
On the side, I have a web-based business which I do mostly for fun, although to my amazement it does manage to post a profit most of the time.
I think that should establish my credentials as someone who knows a bit about business. I’m not going to give further details here, because I’ve had enough experience with crazies on the internet to know better.
@27
I was talking about “national” when I listed my link.
It does not account for state income, property or sales tax numbers.
Your link from cnn is derived from the same data I linked from the IRS.
1% earn 21% of all income, and pay 40% of all taxes. hmmmm
Those who make more pay way more than their fair share…..
By the way, how does taxing the rich more raise income levels for the bottom 50%?
@31
Um, no. As a nation, we have spent SIGNIFICANTLY more on defense than on fighting poverty. It’s not even close.
@30
Rhp6033,
As I’ve probably mentioned before, I grew up in a wealthy area on the East Coast that was heavily Republican. The mentality you describe is actually fairly central to how they view the world. To them, people like Crackpiper are the suckers who keep them from ever having to take any responsibility. Their main motivation is not to make the U.S. a great place to live, their main motivation is to let their daughters live like Paris Hilton. The complexity of our economic system, and the willingness of so many to buy into silly notions of “the free market rules!” when what they’re really fighting for is very far from a free market, is what allows it to happen.
@32
Unfortunately, you have aptly described a contemporary governmental program, that of the Iraq War.
And don’t forget the drug war. ;)
But that one’s also OK by the righties…
@34
1% earn 21% of all income, and pay 40% of all taxes. hmmmm
Those who make more pay way more than their fair share…..
Because to a person who makes $40,000 a year, $500 can easily be worth A LOT MORE than what $50,000 is worth to someone who makes $4,000,000 a year, even though it’s the same percentage. The problem with “fair taxes” is that it assumes that how we value money is linear, when in reality, it’s not.
By the way, how does taxing the rich more raise income levels for the bottom 50%?
It doesn’t directly raise their income levels, but it can do a number of things to raise their standard of living, or ensure that they don’t have unnecessary hardships. Part of the reason I understand this is because I’ve lived in a country (Finland) where government is used to do these things, and their standard of living is definitely higher than here.
The new Urine Test
Like a lot of folks in this country….I have a job. I work, they pay me.
I pay my taxes and the government distributes my taxes as it sees fit.
In order to get that paycheck, I am required to pass a random urine test, with which I have no pro blem.
What I do have a problem with is the distribution of my taxes topeople who don’t have to pass a urine test.
Shouldn’t one have to pass a urine test to get a welfare check because I have to pass one to earn it for them?
Please understand, I have no problem with helping people get back on their feet.
I do, on the other hand, have a problem with helping someone sitting on their butt and using drugs.
Could you imagine how much money the state would save
if people had to pass a urine test to get a public assistance check?
@38
Like a lot of folks in this country….I have a job. I work, they pay me.
I pay my taxes and the government distributes my taxes as it sees fit.
In order to get that paycheck, I am required to pass a random urine test, with which I have no pro blem.
Very few people have to pass random urine tests to collect a paycheck.
What I do have a problem with is the distribution of my taxes topeople who don’t have to pass a urine test.
Like Congressmen and CEOs?
Shouldn’t one have to pass a urine test to get a welfare check because I have to pass one to earn it for them?
No. For one, you have to pass a urine test to earn a paycheck because you DECIDED to work somewhere that gives you a urine test. And two, I’d much rather homeless people be stoned than drunk. They’re much less likely to be a nuisance that way.
Please understand, I have no problem with helping people get back on their feet.
I do, on the other hand, have a problem with helping someone sitting on their butt and using drugs.
The number one drug used by people sitting on their butt and not working is alcohol. Urine tests generally don’t check for that.
Could you imagine how much money the state would save
if people had to pass a urine test to get a public assistance check?
A lot less than the money they’d save if they just ended the drug war.
RS at 25 said:
“A business that doesn’t provide good service, doesn’t usually live long….”
Have you dealt with Comcast or Verizon lately? Tell me how that’s worked out for you.
Actually, I love a free market with the minimal amount of regulation required to make it operate fairly, and a tax system which apportions taxes based upon those who receive the greatist benefits from our great nation paying a proportionatly fair share of the tax burden.
But right now, I don’t see that in operation. I see a looting of the federal treasury to benefit a small group of already-wealthy political supporters, and an administration which uses the power of its administration to advance selected businesses at the disadvantage of others, particularly small businesses. And that ticks me off.
Proud Leftist: You purposely skip the War on Poverty and Education. Is that because you have no answer?
Proud Leftist: Why do you have to qualify it as a “program”?
Paris Hilton is a Democrat.
Nuff Said Lee!
Hey Lee thanks for mentioning the War on Drugs.
Mena Arkansas anyone?
Lee#37:
I liked Finland, just wouldn’t live there. So, please go back to Finland. Please!
#39
Lee, do you just hover over your computer waiting to pounce on any posting. Lee, it was a fucking joke set to me, am still laughing to your response..
Lee the class warfare idiot –
Why is it you and your ilk evaluate the rich like a natural resource such s Texas Light Crude Oil, one to be pumped for as much megabucks as you democrats need?
I suggest you dress up in Salvation Army uniforms, park your carcasses in front of Gates, Buffet, Ted Turner, and the other Forbes richest Americans and put out the tin cup. Just say” I’m here to use you are an oil well.”
Don’t you guys ever think the well will run dry. What if they all moved their money overseas like George Soros? Why don’t you complain why Ol’ George Soros pays no income taxes.
Sooooooooooo cry me a river and get back to me when you get Ol’ George to pay his fair share!
Remember Lee the class warfare idiot – John Edwards brought up the two Americas, then we found out which America he lived in.
Why does Lee the class warfare idiot think: it’s greedy to want to keep my money, but hey y’all it’s “democrat justice” to demand everyone else’s?
Lee can you tell me which economy over the last 100 years which successfully taxed it’s way to affluence?
How about the last 50 years?
Or the last 25 years?
So Lee as I remember in civics class there was a phrase:
“no taxation without representation.” Taxes are necessary for the common good, for protecting the masses and providing essential services. You on the other hand want golden handouts which are NOT essential services, for people who do nothing to earn them.
Continuation of 40: A friend of mine works for Verizon. He says that the back-office customer service has gotten so bad, that by the time he arrives for a service call the customers are furious. They frequently have to double-up, with two techs in the same truck, just as insurance against being assaulted, the customers are so angry. Yet recently they had a mandatory meeting where a company executive told them that when they go out on service calls, they have to sell other company services to those same customers (cell phones, DSL, etc.). Their performance reviews will reflect how well they do that.
So instead of improving customer service at the back office, they are just passing the burden on to the guy in the field. Unfortunately, lots of big corporations seem to be doing that these days.
So Lee why do you continue to trumpet the song that all of America’s problems will be solved if only the rich Americans would pay “their fair share” of US taxes? Seems to me this is how your party are trying to get the votes of the the bottom 95% of American taxpayers.
Democrats – The Party of Extortion!
Lee I just remembered Scott Tucker and his Humanist article. I am so glad for the Internet!
http://findarticles.com/p/arti.....i_17449535
“If a Democratic politician were to speak openly about the ruling class and the working class in this country, a thousand right-thinking pundits of both parties would denounce this indulgence in retrograde Bolshevism. Class is unmentionable in official discourse, with one overwhelmingly obvious exception: the middle class. The definition of this “middle” is something of a muddle, which is very convenient for bipartisan speech making. Not everyone aspires to the luxury of the rich, but who would not wish to rise above the misery of the poor? The perfect moral and economic balance is therefore found among middle class professionals and business people. All else is extremism.”
As I remember Harry Truman accused the Republicans as the party of special interests.
How the tables have turned. Look at all the special interests now in the democrat party.
51: ““no taxation without representation.” Taxes are necessary for the common good, for protecting the masses and providing essential services. You on the other hand want golden handouts which are NOT essential services, for people who do nothing to earn them.
If you studied U.S. history well, you might also know that many states and commonwealths in the colonial and post-colonial period had a “church tax”. This was a tax imposed on the community to support the local church, but much of the tax went to support the church’s charity and welfare programs, such as they were at the time. Henry David Thorou (sp?) went to jail in an exercise of civil disobedience for refusing to pay the church tax, resulting in his essay “On Civil Disobedience”.
Anyway, at the time the “church tax” was a form of welfare system, it used the power of the state to tax individuals to distribute money which went for the benefit of the poor/widows/orphans, only the job of administering the system was out-sourced to the church. Of course, it violated the seperation of state clause of the 1st Amendment, so it dissapeared by the time of the Jacksonian era.
By the late 1800’s and through much of the depression, however, many churches were discouraged from pursuing charitable works by industrialists who argued that it promoted laziness and sloth. Of course, such an argument also had the benefit of making the poor desperate to seek employment on any basis, regardless of the wages or work conditions. Even in the depths of the depression, some large farmers and food distribution companies threatened charity workers and stopped food distribution programs to the needy, because they felt that unless these people were starving, they wouldn’t be sufficiently motivated to work in the fields for the meagre wages which were being offered, and free food took potential sales away from the businesses. But the shear magnitude of the crisis caused charity groups to work regardless, and by 1933 the government under FDR began “back-to-work” progams such as the CCC and TVA.
So using taxes to re-distribute wealth to benefit the needy is not a new – it has a long history.
(I’d like to continue this discussion, but I have to get off the computer now – I promised the wife I would help her put up the Christmas Tree).
Puddy @ 43: “Proud Leftist: You purposely skip the War on Poverty and Education. Is that because you have no answer?”
Puddy, my friend, I need a question before I might venture an answer. You’re the one that referenced government “programs.” Let me see if we might come up with some concepts with which we might both agree:
1) Human beings are fallible;
2) Entering the private sector does not make an individual infallible;
3) Moving from the private sector to the public sector does not make an individual more incompetent (the example of GW Bush notwithstanding);
4) At both the state and national levels, there is considerable movement between the private and public sectors, and the individuals so moving generally don’t change their stripes depending on which sector they’re in;
5) Corporate waste actually exists;
6) All of us are God’s children; and
7) I could go on in this vein for quite some time.
I’m really tired of those who endlessly declare that somehow the difference between the private and public sectors is so great. It ain’t. Live with it.
Too many to list…
I know I posted federal income tax statistics. But the total tax bill, federal, state, local, is still paid, so it’s appropriate to determine not just the state impact, but the total impact.
Those who make more tend to spend more, hence they pay more in sales tax.
Want to raise your standard of living? Earn more money. Where is it written that society has to slow down to your pace? Why don’t you work to keep up with the collective pace. If your job or whatever doesn’t do it for you…get a better one.
RHP6033’s wife’s brokerage company…There are thieves and crooks in every line of work, including blogging and government. Don’t condemn an entire system for the faults of a few. If you’ve been in private business all your life, including owning a side one, then aren’t you guilty yourself of the sweeping generalization you made when you said:
“companies will invariably attempt to wring the most money out of the consumer and provide the least amount of product/service as possible. While competition might provide something of a restraining influence, that only works as long as the other companies are willing to play by the same rules. When they find that the rules are not in force, or more likely “not enforced”, they will skirt the boundaries in order to gain an advantage over the competition. Once one business does that, the others must necessarily follow suit, or die.”
I’ve been in business for decades, and I’ve never had to wallow on the lowest common denominater of morality or ethics.
Ethics: you presume that people in business are willing to chuck them at the first instance. My experience is that business people are the most honest of people. I see a lot of hanky-panky in government.
Wouldn’t give you a bucket of warm spit for CPS in DSHS. How much has the state been forced to pay out in damage claims due to incompetence, malfeasence, and ineptitude on the part of CPS employees?
Don’t like shareholder governance? Sell your shares, there’s always a buyer for them.
Lee loves to mock – it’s what boys do – me with names and assertions that he can neither prove and which he thinks are clever or cute. They’re neither.
The War on Poverty was a compendium of government programs originating in LBJ’s Great Society, most all of which flopped like a fat man off a diving board.
Comcast would provide better service if it wasn’t a monopoly. Verizon just announced an important, customer oriented innovation yesterday: opening up its network to non-Verizon provided equipment. Talk about your innovation!
When I get screwed by government, where do I go to find an alternative supplier of the service? How do I simply stop paying for it?
Those who have more or make more are entitled to use what they have in any way they choose. Who’s to say what constitutes “rich?” Thinking globally, there’s not a soul on HA that isn’t filthy rich, and, under some of the theories evident here, shouldn’t be taxed down to the level of a garbage-heap-dwelling orphan in Calcutta.
Just because someone has more doesn’t give you the right to take more; that’s not social justice, that’s theft.
If this is such a nasty country in which to live, why do thousands upon thousands of people, legal and illegal, risk life and limb to emigrate here every year? Because to a degree, they all share the common desire to make the best living possible for themselves and their families, not to earn a living for someone else.
A lot of resentment and class envy here…
The Piper
8 “why don’t you ask your friend seattlejew about the government regulators. he knows what i am talking about. how much work do you think he actually does? studying a disease????”
If Stephen worked in Big Pharma, he’d most likely be working on the Giant Erection Pill Du Jour. And if there weren’t any pesky “government regulation”, it would matter if it caused the user’s head to explode at the moment of orgasm.
26 “A business that doesn’t provide good service, doesn’t usually live long…”
You mustn’t have traveled by air recently.
@34
1% earn 21% of all income, and pay 40% of all taxes. hmmmm
Those who make more pay way more than their fair share…..
Because to a person who makes $40,000 a year, $500 can easily be worth A LOT MORE than what $50,000 is worth to someone who makes $4,000,000 a year, even though it’s the same percentage. The problem with “fair taxes” is that it assumes that how we value money is linear, when in reality, it’s not.
I notice that Lee never mentions the problem with “fair government” since the value of services received is not linear to taxes paid. I guess the only way to remedy this situation is to not allow nontaxpayers to vote. Sounds good to me. hehehe
@45
Paris Hilton is a Democrat.
Link please.
@46
Hey Lee thanks for mentioning the War on Drugs.
Mena Arkansas anyone?
What next? Are you going to claim the moon landing was faked?
@47
I liked Finland, just wouldn’t live there. So, please go back to Finland. Please!
No thanks. Not enough idiots to make fun of.
@48
Lee, do you just hover over your computer waiting to pounce on any posting. Lee, it was a fucking joke set to me, am still laughing to your response..
No, it was just there after I made fun of Puddybud. If you knew it was retarded, why did you post it?
@64…Lee…
Finland is the one European country not even Rick Steves will visit! Sour and unfriendly…
The Piper
@66
Finland is the one European country not even Rick Steves will visit! Sour and unfriendly…
Not my experience, but I’ll ask Rick next week when I see him.
@49
Why is it you and your ilk evaluate the rich like a natural resource such s Texas Light Crude Oil, one to be pumped for as much megabucks as you democrats need?
Because taxing the wealthy at a higher rate is the most efficient way to move society forward for everyone.
I suggest you dress up in Salvation Army uniforms, park your carcasses in front of Gates, Buffet, Ted Turner, and the other Forbes richest Americans and put out the tin cup. Just say” I’m here to use you are an oil well.”
Why don’t you ask Buffett? He thinks taxes on the rich are too low. Or Gates? He’ll tell you the same thing.
Don’t you guys ever think the well will run dry. What if they all moved their money overseas like George Soros? Why don’t you complain why Ol’ George Soros pays no income taxes.
George Soros gives much of his money away. I do find some hypocrisy in those who evade taxes (cough, Bono, cough), but George Soros puts his money towards a number of valuable endeavors (from defeating tyrannical governments to defeating the drug war).
Remember Lee the class warfare idiot – John Edwards brought up the two Americas, then we found out which America he lived in.
You didn’t know which one he lived in? Are you completely retarded? Oh yeah, I knew that.
Why does Lee the class warfare idiot think: it’s greedy to want to keep my money, but hey y’all it’s “democrat justice” to demand everyone else’s?
All Democrats want is a system that’s both fair and progressive. It has nothing to do with “class warfare”, as much as you want to pretend it does.
@50
Lee can you tell me which economy over the last 100 years which successfully taxed it’s way to affluence?
Ours
How about the last 50 years?
Germany (among others)
Or the last 25 years?
Sweden (among many others)
The first world became the first world this way. Want to see where taxation is nonexistent? Go to Africa.
“A lot of resentment and class envy here…”
Yes. It’s become pretty clear that you hate the poor.
“Is Oemig still in the Legislature? I would have thought he’d be beamed up by the mother ship by now. “
…said John425 @ 9 while anticipating the Rapture to arrive and beam him up to the Father ship.
“Lee can you tell me which economy over the last 100 years which successfully taxed it’s way to affluence?”
Why yes. The US hid behind high tariff walls throughout the time it took it to become the world’s premier industrial power.
Japan, and the Asian Tigers–pretty much the same thing, postwar versions.
Does these count?
Lee – what a moron – Remember Lee the class warfare idiot – John Edwards brought up the two Americas, then we found out which America he lived in.
John Edwards lives in the rich America 28000+ Sq Ft house many car garage, clear cut property area!
FOLDED LIKE A CHEAP LAWN CHAIR.
“Where’s the fat?”
That’s a question no Republican, least of all Timmy Lieman, can answer. Government-haters posture about taxes being too high, but when you try to pin them down on what specific budget items they would cut, they hem and haw and clear their throats … except for Dinosourpuss. He knew exactly what HE wanted to cut: He kicked 40,000 poor kids off health care.
“At one point … Eyman and Sen. Adam Kline, D-Seattle, got into a shouting match outside the Senate chamber in front of a horde of reporters and photographers. Holding up a 3-inch-thick copy of the state’s operating budget, Kline asked Eyman to point out one service he would eliminate.
“‘And you call me a media whore,’ Eyman said.
“‘You’re quite the expert, Tim,’ Kline retorted. ‘There are services that you must’ve thought that we spent too much money on, because you want to cut the taxes that pay for them.’
“Eyman tried to duck out of the confrontation, but Kline got in his face. ‘Answer the question, Tim: Where is the fat in the budget?’ Kline continued. ‘You won’t answer the question, and the reason you won’t is you’re chicken. You’re chicken. You are a coward.'”
Quoted under fair use; for complete story and/or copyright info see http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....on29m.html
Roger Rabbit Commentary: Sen. Kline pegged that guy right. Eyman is a carnival show. All cotton candy, no substance. The only thing I would add to what Kline said is that Republicans had no problem with government spending when they wanted to throw away TWO TRILLION DOLLARS of other people’s money on a recreational war.
@71 Politics is a hobby for the rich. This is news? You’re the last person in America to find out.
Given that only wealthy people can afford to run for national office, there is nevertheless something to be said for a rich trial lawyer (who got that way by dint of hard work) who remembers his humble beginnings and wants to help those less fortunate than he.
That’s a lot more than I can say for any fucking Republican, who are only interested in enriching themselves further, preferably doing as little work as possible in the process.
@49 “Why is it you and your ilk evaluate the rich like a natural resource such s Texas Light Crude Oil, one to be pumped for as much megabucks as you democrats need?”
I like our plan better than the Republican plan of soaking the poor and working class.
Hey! I have an idea! How about if those who favor Bush’s militarism in Iraq pay for it.
Republicans are always calculating profit margins. They’re good at it. For example, they got $400 billion of tax breaks in return for the $4 billion they donated to GOP candidates 2000-2004. That’s a 10,000% return on investment!
Bush borrowed the $400 billion from our kids.
He doesn’t plan to pay it back. Neither do the rich Republicans who got the tax breaks.
The republican haven’t won yet. The real win will take place in November 2008 when the queen gets thrown out on her useless bum and we find out who our nest republican president will be.
Proud It’s An ASS: Good try at deflection. You know I mean tax it’s citizens through punitive taxes not no tariff tax.
Good try at reframing the argument.
Asian Tiger economies are you example? Where they worked their people to the bone with long hours and little pay? Isn’t that what China is doing now? Isn’t that what your social activist friends complained about in the late 80’s and 90’s with Donna Karan, Nike and others? Hmmm…?
Pelletizer (TM) Hey why do you complain about Fox News Democrats. They spout off your arguments. Alan Colmes said he likes all three front runners. Geraldo is for illegal immigrants to stay in the US. He got into a big debate with Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity on it. Greta likes the Natalee Holloway case and won’t get off of it yet.
Harold Ford Jr., Bernie Goldberg, Bob Beckel, Kirsten Powers, Susan Estrich, Geraldine Ferraro and Jane Hall are all Fox News Democrats. And there are others too.
Another good try by Pelletizer (TM). My mind is not malleable clay like many liberals here.
Lee: Show me the links where our economy taxed it’s citizens to prosperity.
You postulated Germany. Hmmm a country where mandatory vacations are 32-36 days a year. Where their social democrat economic council said these things
They needed to create more social inequality in order to get more employment. How does that work in the liberal mind
They also called for the general lowering of all wages and salaries in Germany. How about their call for an extension of the low-wage sector? Doesn’t this hurt the middle class Lee?
Or how about the call to keep pay increases below the growth rate of labor productivity?
Why were all these things said. Because they ran out of money trying to tax the rich and their social compromise experiment failed Lee.
How about the call for unemployment benefits to run out after a year?
How about the call for cuts in German social security?
Lee: Why was Germany called the grandmother of the social welfare states?
Lee: Your side had congress for over 40 years. They couldn’t create a fair and equitable system while they had control? No lets tax the rich.
George Soros and his millions into political web sites. You forgot to mention that Lee.
I asked: Why does Lee the class warfare idiot think: it’s greedy to want to keep my money, but hey y’all it’s “democrat justice” to demand everyone else’s?
Lee petered out with: All Democrats want is a system that’s both fair and progressive. It has nothing to do with “class warfare”, as much as you want to pretend it does.
WTF? Pretending? Democrats want people dependent on them. It’s call the handouts for continual votes syndrome. Google Democrats want people dependent on government. Here I did it for you. Results 1 – 10 of about 194,000 for Democrats want people dependent on government
I want to keep what I earn. I give to charities at a much higher rate than most liberals combined here on this blog. Cry me a river Lee.
Google Democrats and Class Warfare and see all the links that appear. Here I did it for you: Results 1 – 10 of about 306,000 for Democrats and class warfare.
Happy Weekend reading Lee.
Pelletizer (TM) claims Republicans are always calculating profit margins.
Really Pelletizer (TM) ? Tell that to the left leaning board and management heads at Mattel toys and their 18.2 million toy recall. Tell that the Richard C. Blum (Mr Dianne Feinstein) and his many corporations. Tell that to the Shaw Group and their many child corporations.
Once again Pelletizer (TM) applies his faux jedi mind tricks on the simpleton lefties. Us whom think right are not bothered by his faux mind tricks.
(Back Again):
And for those who argue that the American free market rewards hard work and success, and penalizes the lazy and incompetent, I offer the following evidence that in this country, it just isn’t so:
# 6 – Angelo Mozillo, CEO of Countrywide Finanacial – his severance package, although not yet settled, is estimated to be worth $73 million, even though he is believed to bear much of the responsibility for the current sub-prime mortgage mess which risked his company’s existence, as well as the homes of millions of borrowers.
# 5 – Stanley O’Neal, CEO of Merrill Lynch – $161.5 million, despite being fired for punging his firm into sub-prime-loan backed securities. But the value of his severence package could rise significantly when stock options vest in the future, assuming his successors can clean up the mess he created.
# 4 – James Kilts, CEO of Gillette – $165 million. When his shakey firm was rescued (taken over) by Procter & Gamble, his golden parachute actually includes an addional amount to cover taxes owed no his buyout. (Remember Leona Helmsely’s comment: “Only the little people pay taxes”.
# 3 – Robert Nardelli, CEO of Home Depot – $210 million. He was forced out when his company’s stock lost 8% of value during the six years he was at the helm, despite the broad upsurge in the industry fueled by the home remodeling boom. And this was in addition to $219 million he received in salary and bonuses during his last two years on the job.
# 2 – Henry McKinnell, CEO of Pfizer – $213 million. In his five years at the top of his company, the stock lost 40% of value.
# 1 – Lee Raymond, CEO of Exxon – $351 million. At least Raymond can point out that his company stock increased 4 X during his thirteen-year reign. But then, oil prices increased about the same amount, and most major oil companies show similar increases in value. So that’s quite a reward for doing nothing more than “riding the market”, or some would say a grade “C” performance.
Source: http://articles.moneycentral.m.....dCEOs.aspx
Of course, the Republicans, the Bush Administration, and the wingnuts on this board don’t see anything wrong with this – they believe the “producers” are merely receiving their justly-earned rewards.
OH GAWD @40…..*** TRUST FUND BABY ALERT***. lee, are you kidding?
“Very few people have to pass random urine tests to collect a paycheck.”
are you serious??????
well, this cinches it. you don’t know what the hell you are talking about do you? but you just keep talking……..
art@60….you notice STEPHEN has gone all quiet all of a sudden? isn’t that interesting? do you know why? because i do.
“if ” he worked with [BIG…BOOGEY, BOOGEY, BOOGEY] pharma???
if??? if??? WOW…..you really don’t know do you?? i can’t stop laughing, yet at the same time here you are spouting off about something you know nothing about, which is disturbing to say the least. well, there’s a surprise on HA! LOL. he has alot to do with the pharma companies….why do you think he’s so quiet all of a sudden. i know where his grants come from………and how fast they can dry up.
and last but not least in the parade of know-nothing fools is lefty ……..
“Your unfettered faith in corporations is amusing.”
is flip flopping a liberal disease? obviously. i have just one word for you in your worshiping at the alter of government…..FEMA.does that ring any bells for you? and if you think that it was any different [or will be] under a president with a D after his/her name….you are sadly mistaken.
and , honey, no one that either runs a corporation [me] or works for one has any of the dewy eyed moronic worship for business that you do for government. and most of us are very honest because a good business deal is one that is satisfying for all parties involved. are there jerks in the business world? of course….grow up.THEY ARE HUMAN. but they are obvious and we expect them. that is “we” meaning those of us that don’t still believe in the tooth fairy [you]…..and the good part? we don’t have to do business with them if we don’t want to. that goes for consumers as well. but once some idiot is elected by a bunch of non working whiners like you…then the rest of us are stuck with that ass with his hand in our pockets.
and all because you are frightened of the dark…or getting a J-O-B.
and PUDDY…..yup, i know. it’s a sad fact that this hard working, proud country has so many people in it that are willing to give in to fear and ignorance for “security”.they don’t really get any security….but they are told they will. and all because they are FRIGHTENED daily by the silly rantings of whiners.
Hey Puddybud, are going to argue that western economies like the U.S. and Germany are in worse shape than countries in places like Africa where this isn’t the same level of collective taxation? Otherwise, you don’t have a point and you’re not making any sense.