Just read Robert Jamieson’s column in today’s Seattle P-I: “Critics go after the wrong pastor.”
Hmm. I wasn’t aware that us critics were limited to going after only one pastor at a time.
It’s an embarrassment of riches out there with the likes of Mark Driscoll, Ken Hutcherson, Joe Fuiten, Ted Haggard, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Fred Phelps, and the inimitably mule-fucking Rev. Neil Horsley routinely making headlines. So many pastors, so little time.
What about the sheep who follow these loons and willingly bend over for, you know, fleecing … ?
I think Driscoll’s been eager to put some distance between himself and Hutcherson in light of Hutcherson’s more recent work, but Ken helped give Driscoll his start in Seattle.
Driscoll worked as a pastor under Hutcherson at Antioch right out of college. After he began to put together a large and growing study and prayer group out of his home, the folks at Antioch helped stake him to his own church with Hutcherson’s blessing and guidance.
Driscoll has redacted most of this from his online bio, but it persists in various other formats, locally in a profile that Janet Tu did on him back when she was reporting on religion for the Times. She later helped him get on board with the Times.
Jamieson isn’t stupid (he just plays stupid in his column every so often). When Jamieson calls for protesters to lay off Driscoll and focus on Hutcherson it’s because that’s what Antioch Bible and Mars Hill want. Hutcherson’s supposed to be the firebrand who inflames the P.C. liberals while Driscoll is intended to be the Stealth Christo-fascist in Seattle’s midst.
Have you ever looked into the death, destruction, pain, suffering, etc, caused by religion and the church?
Whether they’re starting wars, buring supposed witches, applauding the murder of gays or just doing their best to make sure that people who could benefit from stem cell research suffer, the religious wackjobs who’ve caused death and destruction on this planet are due for a major league ass whippin’!
Fuck em all. I hope they suffer like those they’ve made suffer and when these ass-suckers get to Hell – I will personally be waiting for the cowards with my great big pitch fork – ready to stick it up their collective asses.
@3 None of that is God’s fault; He didn’t authorize this crap. One may hope there’s an especially hot place in Hell reserved for this who commit evil in His name.
those, not this
Oh boy, you guys showing your true colors…
I guess opposing Hutch in the election is fair game,
But going after a minister and what he says in the pulpit is anti-American, not the american way.
Odd isn’t it, you guys go apes**t over some 1950’s style speak about women, but you’ve never bothered to protest the imans who preach hate the jew and hate the christian, fatwa for all…
I would imagine Seattle becomes like Canada, basically scrapping protection for religion, and aggressively going after ministers who follow the Bible on matters of personal morality.
Right off you stupid slut – there aren’t any “imans” preaching hate around here that I know of. But plenty of your child raping, inbred right wing Christian republican friends are – so yes – we’ll show our “true” colors and call you hypocrites out for your bullshit.
Fuck you – your bible and your preacher!
I wrote a LTE to the P.I. early this morning after seeing the column, basically saying what you did, Goldy: we liberals can actually walk and chew gum at the same time.
RIGHTON – YOU’RE SUCH A BRAINDEAD WINGNUT. THE FBI AND DHS HAS CRACKED DOWN TOTALLY ON THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY IN THE COUNTRY. AFTER 9/11, THEY DEPORTED EVERY SWARTHY INDIVIDUAL WHO COULDN’T SHOW A GREEN CARD OR A BIRTH CERTIFICATE. THEY’RE WATCHING THEM 24/7. I DON’T SEE YOU WINGNUTS PROTESTING A LOUDMOUTH IMAM IN THIS COUNTRY BECAUSE 1) THERE AREN’T ANY AND 2) IT WOULD INTERFERE WITH YOUR GOLF GAME, YOUR CHEERING FOOTBALL FROM YOUR COUCH OR WATCHING 6 HOURS OF FAUX NEWS A DAY.
#6 –
The American Way is inclusive; what the goddamned minister is preaching is anti-American, and once he brings his sermonizing out of his cloisters into the bright light of secularism forcing his Un-American agenda down my throat, he’s free game. Christianists dearly love to hide behind the flag.
6 Wrong Again, Wrong 100% of the Time says: But going after a minister and what he says in the pulpit is anti-American, not the american way. 12/09/2006 at 3:13 pm
Since when are preachers immune from criticism about what they say in their pulpits about (a) political issues, (b) changing laws, (c) who or what their listeners should vote for? Especially preachers who behave like politicians and have political agendas? Fuck you, righton, we’re not going to let hatemongers hide behind their pulpits and Bibles, we’re going to expose them for the cockroaches they are!
Radical Muslims must integrate, says Blair
Finally some common sense.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,329658187-103602,00.html
Airport: No Christmas Trees, No Menorahs
Did airport bureaucrats overreact to a rabbi’s request to display a menorah by ordering removal of Christmas trees?
“By KIM HOLCOMB / KING 5 News
“SEA-TAC Airport – All of the Christmas trees inside the terminal at Sea-Tac have been removed in response to a complaint by a rabbi.
“A local rabbi wanted to install an 8-foot menorah and have a public lighting ceremony. He threatened to sue if the menorah wasn’t put up, and gave a two-day deadline to remove the trees.
“Sea-Tac public affairs manager Terri-Ann Betancourt said the trees that adorn the Sea-Tac upper and lower levels may not properly represent all cultures. She said that since this is their busiest time of year and they don’t have time to add a fair representation of all cultures, her department decided to take down all of the decorations, review their policies, and decide if they need to make a change for next year. … Until then, no Christmas decor at Sea-Tac.”
http://tinyurl.com/ygalzm
Roger Rabbit Comment: King 5’s broadcast version differs from this on-line story. On their 6:30 pm news, King 5 said the rabbi denied demanding the removal of Christmas trees and claimed he ONLY asked to display the menorah. King 5 said it will broadcast the rabbi’s side of the story on their 11 pm news tonight.
Roger Rabbit @ 13
Another reason to abolish the Port of Seattle property tax! Granted, not a logical reason, but one with a lot of emotional appeal. Of course, the Port of Seattle property tax is illogical and bad policy, regardless of whether they have Christmas trees at Sea-Tac airport or not.
Better yet, merge the Port of Seattle into King County government. They have “bonded” most of the property tax revenues, so that the $65 million per year property tax cannot be repealed. Put the Port under Ron Sims and the King County Council, and they will figure out something better to do with this $65 million per year. The Port can operate at a profit, or at least break even, and business revenues can be used to pay off the bonds, instead of the Port share of the property tax. The property tax itself cannot be repealed (while the Port bonds are outstanding), but the $65 million per year can actually be used for beneficial general government purposes, so long as other revenues are sufficient to cover the Port bonds.
The “Christmas tree” is actually a SECULAR symbol. Especially if there are no religious decorations. In the former Soviet Union, they called it a “New Years Tree” and used it in government venues (i.e. everywhere). I think it is popular in places like Japan, where less than 10% of the people are Christian, and is even becoming popular in China.
By contrast, the Menorah is an unmistakably religious symbol of Judaism. So it would be perfectly okay to have trees without religious decorations, without a Menorah. If they were to allow a Menorah, they would have to give equal treatment of symbols from other religions — such as a Nativity scene, totem poles, a Buddha, etc.
#16 –
In western culture, the “Christmas Tree” is rightfully a pagan, symbol – not secular by virtue of definition. Bringing evergreens indoors around the time of the winter solstice has absolutely nothing to do with the birth of a Christian Messiah. The good Rabbi needs to get a grip.
Typical liberal: former voter only give HALF the story.
Trees have played an important role from ancient times in pagan religions, and were even worshipped. In pagan mythology, the evergreen tree was a symbol of the essence of life.
Norsemen (ancient Scandinavians), Celts (early people of British Isles) and Saxons used trees to ward off witches, evil spirits, and ghosts. Yggdrasil was the Great Tree of Life in the Norse mythology. In the North European countries, many would lose family members in the severe and harsh winters. All trees would die except the fir tree. It therefore represented life. As a result many people placed the fir tree in their homes as a symbol of life, with the hope that having it inside their homes would bring their families life, health and wealth.
In Northern Europe, the winter festivities were considered to be a Feast of the Dead, focusing on the Norse god, Odin, and his night riders, with ceremonies full of spirits and devils. One particular solstice festival was “Jol” (Yule), celebrated throughout Northern Europe in honor of Jolnir, another name for Odin. Since Odin was the god of intoxicating drink and ecstasy, as well as the god of death, Yule customs varied greatly from region to region.
In the earlier pagan customs, an evergreen tree was decorated in honor of their god Adonis, who after being slain was brought to life by the serpent Aesculapius[2]. The representation of the slain Adonis was a dead stump of a tree. In Babylon, the evergreen tree came to represent the rebirth or reincarnation of Nimrod as his new son (Sun), Tammuz. In Egypt this god was worshiped in a palm tree as Baal-Tamar. In Rome the fir tree was worshiped as the same new-born god, named Baal-Berith, who was restored to life by the same serpent. In Mesopotamia (area between Tigris and Euphrates), the winter solstice had been the climax of a 12 day festival (Saturnalia) for centuries. This would traditionally be the night when there was a mock battle between the mythical sun king and the forces of darkness, where good would win and trees would be decorated then burned in honor. Ancient Greeks celebrated Saturnalia, when houses were adorned with evergreen tree boughs etc.
Heathen people in the land of Canaan (vaguely the present day Palestine area) worshiped tree, calling it the Asherah – a tree with its branches cut off and carved into a phallic symbol. The same Yule Log was used for all 12 days to keep the fire lit or to re-light it. It was the shadow and type of a burning lust of a man to fuel the fires of sexual potency to reproduce fertility. The lit Yule Log was also regarded as a phallic symbol in fertility worship, representing a good omen for heightened sexuality for the coming year (fir trees being considered the very spirit of fertility since they were constantly green and undying).
Historically, the custom of decorating Christmas Tree can only be traced as far back as the 16th century, and there are various legends concerning its origin. Some think that Martin Luther introduced the Christmas tree. It is said that while coming home one dark winter’s night near Christmas, he was struck with the beauty of the starlight shining through the branches of a small fir tree outside his home. He duplicated the starlight by using candles attached to the branches of his indoor Christmas tree. Some reports attribute the origin of Christmas tree is to Wilfred of Crediton, an 8th Century missionary who worked to save souls in pagan Germany. It is said that he felled an oak which was sacred to Odin and used for human sacrifice. A small fir tree sprang from the ground nearby and this pure plant was declared by Wilfred to be the emblem of the New Faith.
However, there is general scholarly consensus that the Christmas tree originated in Germany. The earliest record of an evergreen tree being used and decorated (but without lights) for Christmas dates 1521 in the German region of Alsace. It was probably derived from the so-called “paradise tree” that symbolized the Garden of Eden portrayed in German mystery plays in the 16th century.
As far as we know, the first Christmas trees did not have lights; the first mention of lights (candles) on a Christmas tree is in the 17th century; these trees were decorated with paper roses, apples, Communion wafers, gold, foil, sweets, and dolls. The Christmas Tree slowly grew in popularity and use from the mid-seventeenth century onward. However, it was not until the beginning of the 19th century that the use of the Christmas tree grew considerably.
In America, the Christmas tree was probably first used about 1700 when the first wave of German immigration settled in western Pennsylvania. The Christmas tree was first introduced into France in 1837 when Princess Helen of Mecklenburg brought it to Paris after her marriage to the Duke of Orleans. The year 1841 was a significant year in the Christmas celebration in England. Prince Albert, the German husband of British Queen Victoria, brought the first Christmas tree in England to the royal castle of Windsor. And just a year later, America too was to discover the Christmas tree. In 1842, Dr. Charles Frederick Minnegerode, professor of Greek at the College of William and Mary, brought the first Christmas tree to Williamsburg, Virginia, America.
For many years the Christian church had banned the use of evergreens in the Christmas celebrations because of their history with paganism.
In the Old Testament, Jeremiah warned the people who decorated the trees:
Hear ye the word which the Lord speaks unto you, O house of Israel: thus says the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cuts a tree out of forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. (Jeremiah 10:1-4).
Former Voter @ 17
Excellent point. A “Christmas tree” would simply be such a tree decorated with Christian symbols. Most Christian sects have no objection to having such a tree in believers’ homes, regardless of whether it is decorated with Christian symbols or not. Most Christians having such a tree at home would tend to include Christian symbols in its decoration. Even non-religious people might use some Christian symbols. And there is nothing wrong with people of other faiths using symbols from their own faith on home trees, should they desire to do so.
Of course, if you want to keep the winter solstice tree secular in public places, you can’t include religious symbols of special meaning to pagan religions either :) Sp you have to leave out depictions of Thor, Odin, Lenin, etc. as well.
The German song is “O Tannenbaum”. The literal translation of “Tannenbaum” is “fir-tree”. If you translate “Christmas tree” into German, you get “Weihnachtsbaum”. “Weihnacht” means “Christmas” in German. So clearly, there is a strong secular meaning in the German culture which popularized decorative trees at winter solstice.
Anti-liberal @ 18
Thanks for the quote from Jeremiah 10:1-4. That may explain why some Jews oppose winter solstice trees, especially those which are decorated in any manner. I never understood this previously, but I can certainly respect that some people may want to keep decorated trees of any sort out of their homes because of their religious beliefs.
What’s next? Will some Jewish rabbi demand that the Burger King at Sea-Tac stop selling bacon cheeseburgers (or cheeseburgers at all, for that matter), unless rabbi-approved kosher food is also served at that same restaurant?
If one religion is allowed to put their symbols on public property, then other religious groups should be allowed the same access. But just because secular conduct may offend a particular religious group, this doesn’t give that religious group the right to insist on conduct dictated by their group (or in the alternative to have that secular conduct eliminated).
What’s next? Will a Muslim cleric insist on separate waiting areas for male and female passengers at Sea-Tac? And if it is impractical to have three separate waiting areas (existing mixed gender, male only, and female only), will Sea-Tac authorities cave in by segregating all waiting areas by gender?
Well there is one thing to thank God for – the utter evil that was the republican congress is gone. The 109th will go down as the most worthless, corrupt, anti-American congress of all time. The shame of this congress will last forever and people hundreds of years from now will use names like Delay as negative adjectives.
14 Gee Richard, how come I agree with you on so many things? Unless I’m mistaken, the Port of Seattle is the only major west coast port that isn’t self-supporting and levies a property tax. Maybe people wouldn’t kick so much about the port manager’s golden parachute if it wasn’t coming out of their food money. What is it about this town that our civic leaders think taxpayers have to subsidize everything from sports teams to shipping terminals? Don’t they believe ANYTHING should have to pay for itself?
15, 16 — Good God, Richard, you’re so SENSIBLE. Too bad your personal life is such a mess, and your law practice is so disorganized. Why is it that the smartest politician in the room can’t keep his pants zipped, and the smartest attorney in the room can’t restrain himself from reaching across the table for the witness in a deposition? Human nature is perverse! Somehow all the reject parts get mixed in with the good parts on the assembly line.
21 What’s next? Will a Muslim cleric insist on separate waiting areas for male and female passengers at Sea-Tac? And if it is impractical to have three separate waiting areas (existing mixed gender, male only, and female only), will Sea-Tac authorities cave in by segregating all waiting areas by gender?
Do you even need to ask? What do you think the spineless airport bureaucrats will do? Of course they’ll cave in. No, wait, I’ve got it — they’ll decree that NOBODY can have waiting areas. That’s it — NO WAITING AREAS. Anything to avoid controversy and (gasp) litigation.
Topic: Has any minister from any religion ever actually given any practical help to people? I always see them asking for money, but they give precious little back except hot air.
roy, yawn; hospitals, harvard/yale/stanford etc, plenty of good deeds.
I just wonder which part of the bill of rights you all believe in?
Not 2nd amendment
Not 1st amendment
Takings amendment (too sleepy to recall its number)
etc.
Come on you hypocrits… shades of revolutionary russia; you shut down (or want to) churches who go against your secular grain, kill all reference to Christmas, pander to the muslims, etc.
WRONGON – ITS SUNDAY. GO TO SERVICES AT YOUR LOCAL MEGACHURCH AND EMPTY YOUR POCKETS. “YOU ALL” CAN WAIL AND CRY AT WHAT HAPPENED ON NOV 7. SCREAM ABOUT THE “COMMIES” OR WHATEVER. TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU SAW ON FAUX NEWS.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS.
#18 –
Check your presumptions at the door, sir or ma’am.
Thank you. See post #17.
We should dedicate an entire blog to outing all the pastors and such who’ve been arrested for, convicted of or paroled for child porn and rape. That would require LOTS of bandwidth.
27 righton says: … you shut down (or want to) churches who go against your secular grain, kill all reference to Christmas, pander to the muslims, etc. 12/10/2006 at 6:15 am
You shouldn’t be using drugs so early in the morning.
18 A wingnut calling a wingnut a “liberal!” Don’t you just LOVE it when wingnuts EAT EACH OTHER!! HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR DOUBLE-HAR HAR :)
@16 Richard Pope
Your ignorance of Hanukkah may be an excuse but calling Hanukkah “religious” ,makes as much sense as calling Thanksgiving or the 4th of July religious.
FWIW, Hannukah celebrates the victory of the Maccabees over the post Alexander Greeks. The 8 candles do celebrate a miracle, one days oil for the eternal light burned for eight days, but the significance of the Holiday is mainly about our fight for freedom.
Moreover, in the Jewish calendar it is not a major event and would not be notable to the general society other than the historic accident that the anniversary of the victory happens to occur around the time Europeans celebrate the birth fo their Deity.
Personally, in the spirit of good will toward all the components of the American ethnic stew, I would not mind seeing creches and Woden worship and Saturnalia and .. whatever. For that matter, as an atheist, maybe we could have an opportunity to designate OUR winter holiday symbol too? Hmm, how about one of them silver fishes with Darwin written within?
I somehow suspect, however, that few Christians would be that tolerant.
Goldy ….
Lets not leave out Rabbi Lapin. He is even funner than the goyische fundies.
Then there are our REAL fundies .. the Lubavitchers. But these folks somehow don’t share the Xtian’s rights fervor for forcing the rest fo society into their mold. Isn’t it nice NOT to to be an evangelical!
I am a Republican – I lie, steal and cheat when I’m not being a crying hypocrit or family man (fat whore)