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Wow! Look for the Secret Service to pay a visit to this middle-aged, white lady from the South.
Of course our darling wingnuts will label her a “moonbat” or some such epithet.
Sorry wingnuts, hard dislike, disdain, loathing, what have you for your beloved Preznit is MAINSTREAM.
It’s you who suffer from BLS – Bush Lover Syndrome – even if you say you don’t like the guy (a lie).
I got a kick out of that wingnut saying the lady should respect the Preznit.
I bet in the nineties he mega dittoed Limbaugh’s ugly “respect” for Bill Clinton.
Hehehe…
Hey, is there someway I can donate unused cell phone minutes to soldiers in Iraq? I’ve got 5,000 minutes, or something crazy like that, that I’ll never use and if I were in Iraq I know I’d want to call my mom.
I’m not sure what “rollover” minutes are, but I have 2,253 of those.
@3
Michael, this group is still doing that, I believe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....r_soldiers
She has a right to do that. I also thing Bush was wrong for going into Iraq. But if I lived near that lady, I honestly would make a life-size figure of her, and hang it from a tree in my yard. Come to think of it, I would make a second one, and position it on all fours in my front yard, and have a fake dog mounting her. Now THAT would be funny!
2 “I got a kick out of that wingnut saying the lady should respect the Preznit.”
Just like people in the corresponding times in history were saying the same thing about Caligula, Hitler, Idi Amin….and Saddam Hussein.
I honestly would make a life-size figure of her, and hang it…blah, blah…
Only from the mind of a wingnut troll.
Well, Bush and Cheney will be out of office in about a year, so this little episode won’t be very important in the long run.
@8,
Unless that lady is a hypocrite, she would think it was perfectly okay for me to hang her in effigy if I lived across the street from her.
Most amazing is with what the happy hooligans call wingnuts, none have destroyed her property.
Did any of you hear about that liberal wingnut that keyed the Marine’s car? In the 70’s the liberals/left-wingers simply spit on soldiers, now you’re keying cars. Nice.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/.....149.column
Carol Yancy is beyond contempt from the general public. I feel sorry for her Granddaughter and what she is learning from her Grandmother. Oh – this is not a ‘troll’ comment and yes Carol has ‘free speech’ rights. Even so, IMMHO I do disagree with what she has attempted to portray and say.
@12: do you support the use of torture by what is left of our country?
That is what embarasses me- that – and as an American, I am ashamed of my country when I go abroad because we attacked Iraq for no good reason. In other countries, they want to know why we Americans put up with a liar who agreesively attacks other countries for no reason.
A ture patriot in this country opposes the illegal Bush wiretapping, the illegal signing statements, the illegal claims of executive priviledge, the illegal use of torture and so on.
Shocking is this: “…public health care in Canada depends on private health care in the U.S. A small news story from (September 2007) illustrates this:
‘A Canadian woman has given birth to extremely rare identical quadruplets. The four girls were born at a U.S. hospital because there was no space available at Canadian neonatal intensive care units. Autumn, Brook, Calissa, And Dahlia are in good condition at Benefice Hospital in Great Falls, Montana. Health officials said they checked every other neonatal intensive care unit in Canada, but none had space. The family, a nurse and a respiratory tech were flown 500 kilometers to the Montana hospital, the closest in the U.S. where the quadruplets were born on Sunday.’
There you have Canadian health care in a nutshell. After all, you can’t expect a G-7 economy of only 30 million people to be able to offer the same level of neonatal intensive care coverage as a town of 50,000 in remote, rural Montana. And let’s face it, there’s nothing an expectant mom likes more on the day of delivery than 300 miles in a bumpy twin prop over the Rockies. Everyone knows that socialized health care means you wait and wait and wait—six months for an MRI, a year for a hip replacement, and so on. But here is the absolute logical reductio of a government monopoly in health care: the ten month waiting list for the maternity ward.”
–Canadian citizen and New Hampshire resident Mark Steyn
Gee, can American pregnant woman get a 10-month waiting period for the maternity ward, too?? After all, our current system is too fast.
Stylin:
Gee – another right wing anecdote on the Canadian health care system (how cute!). As my relatives in Canada say – they would not trade their system for ours and even have concerns visiting the US – they buy supplemental insurance before entering.
sorry – statistics show they live longer and pay less – we have the most expensive health care system in the world and rank near Slovenia in delivery of care.
Keep tryin stylin, your off topic and wrong – but 2 out of 3 ain’t bad.
none have destroyed her property.
Yet
In the 70’s the liberals/left-wingers simply spit on soldiers
A lie. No proof of this whatsoever.
http://www.slate.com/id/1005224/
liberal wingnut that keyed the Marine’s car?
That was most likely an anarchist from Eugene, OR. Nobody here supports anyone like that.
Stamm: How much are you paid to come here? Does it pay better than sessions or gigs?
#15, where do you suggest in Canada that this woman should have had her babies?
@17: pretty much anywhere – I don’t trust an unattributed story – where is the link? where is the evidence? where was this published?
did you find this on some Wingnut site – then ask for verification?
What I find is that these stories are often wrong or apocryphal.
I do know that health care here is expensive and that insurance companies don’t cover squat anymore and claim that lots of thingws are not covered (for example the woman who died in California and could not get a liver transplant).
and this is someone WITH coverage – not to mention the 44 million without any coverage.
I wish I could get a job in Canada. health care here is a mess – and Canadian drugs are cheaper – explain that.
#16 YLB says:
Of course. Vietnam vets were treated wonderfully from the left-side of reality. It was the right-wing corporations that treated the vets bad. But seriously, how can you think that not a single soldier was spit upon yet you can imagine scenarios where chimp-bush is planning this and that. Utterly amazing.
Of course not anyone from here would do something like that. wink-wink
Much better. Now I’m sure you know the musicians union has made it so that through reuse fees, special payments and residuals I make much more after the red light goes off. And now since the vast right wing conspiracy is partially funded by the clintons during primary season, it’s very profitable. The rabbit is also enrolled in a program (remember all his posts about making $ the republican way), although because he’s afraid to jump over to and troll republican blogs he has a very high post minimum.
Thanks Lee.
#18 correctnotright says:
Here’s two reasons- Lawsuits. Advertising to patients banned in Canada.
I don’t think I remember Wall Street Journal-types calling returning Vietnam guys “baby killers,” but I could be wrong. I do remember the movie “Coming Home,” with Jane Fonda, Bruce Dern and John Voight. There was a scene where Bruce Dern (who played a Marine captain) was harassed while driving out of a gate of a military installation. The demonstrators weren’t dressed in three-piece suits and wingtips, I’m afraid. The looked like your garden variety anti-war folks of the time. So, I think it’s safe to say that the anti-war folks of that era behaved terribly towards the soldier, sailors, airmen and marines who actually fought the war.
Maybe that’s why Bruce Dern (in character) flipped them off in that movie.
#18: “Pretty much anywhere” where? You mean pretty much anywhere in Canada?
Well, let’s try this Canadian thing, get it out of our systems and see if it works. If it’s fucked up, we can always go back to what we had.
#18: CNN.com and several other sites carry the story. It is true. So instead of a red herring (“It must be made up”), where in Canada do you say this woman should have given birth to these babies? what do you mean “pretty much anywhere”?
I didn’t know CNN.com was a “Wingnut site”
Of course. Vietnam vets were treated wonderfully from the left-side of reality.
Again, prove a vietnam soldier was spit upon by anyone who opposed the war. Point to film or photographic evidence. Anecdotes published on right wing websites don’t count.
We as a society failed to support Veterans adequately after Vietnam – that includes everybody, right or left.
We shouldn’t make that same mistake with the Iraq veterans.
Of course not anyone from here would do something like that. wink-wink
Proof? Nope. Not in a million years. You’re here to spew lies.
Much better.
Thought so. I appreciate your honesty. Thank some rich asshole like this guy for your paycheck:
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/005103.php
250 million Stamm. Get your piece of it.
Stylin’ says:
I didn’t know CNN.com was a “Wingnut site”
Oh yes, most definitely! Just ask Bill O’Reilly.
It’s worse than we thought—this woman and her husband had to DRIVE 325 miles to the Montana hospital to receive care for their 2-months-early quadruplets.
Jolly. (gee- and all this while they theoretically had their neato-burrito canadian coverage! swell)
@2 I respect the office, but the individual who occupies it has to earn my respect. Clinton didn’t, and this one doesn’t — in fact, he makes Clinton like good by comparison, which is about as bitter a slam as the English language permits.
look good by comparison
@11 I clicked on your link, read the article, and saw no reference to “liberal”. Fact is, we don’t know what that guy’s political orientation is. He does, however, sound like someone with issues — and not a few screws loose. I think what we’ve got here is a mental case, not an episode of political vandalism.
About this one, however, there is no doubt of the political motivation, or the political orientation of the vandal:
“Car Vandalized Because of Political Bumper Sticker
“By KOMO Staff
“RENTON – A local woman claims someone vandalized her car because of a Kerry-Edwards campaign sticker in her back window.
“Joni Job told KOMO 4 News someone put a confederate flag alongside her sticker. They also used red paint to write ‘Bush in 2004’ on her passenger side door.
“Job says the vandals also dented her car, causing hundreds of dollars in damage.”
Quoted under fair use; for complete article w/photo and/or copyright info see http://www.komotv.com/news/archive/4131001.html
Roger Rabbit Commentary: What an ass. As for that guy in Chicago, put him a the nice warm padded cell he deserves.
In response to all the wingnuts wringing their hands over this, do not interpret this as an endorsement of bad behavior, but nothing this woman has done could even begin to approach the obscenity that is the Bush administration.
I haven’t ever seen any of you wringing your hands over warmongering, torture, corruption on a grand scale, and pervasive incompetence — so, you have damned little credibility here. In fact, none at all.
Re: Allegations of Spitting On Veterans
“The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam, by Jerry Lembcke (New York University Press, 1998)
“Many Vietnam veterans repeat a common litany: anti-war protesters spit upon them. This book attempts to debunk what Lembcke concludes has become a modern urban myth.
“How does one attempt to prove a negative – that something didn’t happen? This author does it by examining the positive side and failing to find any conclusive proof that it occurred. Along the way he finds many indications that it is indeed a myth.
“His research examined newspapers from New York and San Francisco, as well as police reports detailing the interaction between protesters and veterans. No spitting incidents were reported, and the observers noticed that over time the veterans assumed leadership positions among the protesters. Lembcke did find newspaper reports of spitting during demonstrations in the late 1960s, but they referred to hawks spitting on anti-war protesters.”
http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/ar.....n+veterans
“Spitting on the Troops: Old Myth, New Rumors
“By Jerry Lembcke”
[From an article originally published in “Veteran” magazine.]
“The largest anti-war movement in American history emerged during the weeks leading up to the attack on Iraq. … As the war against Iraq commenced, however, public opinion began to shift. The surprisingly favorable coverage given protests in the weeks leading to the bombing of Baghdad on March 19 gave way to evening news reports about the growing numbers of people turning out for demonstrations and vigils to ‘support our troops.’ The nightly-news footage of parents and neighbors distraught over their loved ones’ deployment to the danger zone testified to the emotional wreckage left on the homefront when troops ship off to war.
” … [W]hatever the intent and stated purpose of the public musterings for the troops, the reality was that they were viewed with skepticism by many observers as thinly-veiled pep rallies for the war policy of the Bush administration.
“There is still another layer to the pro-troop rhetoric that has escaped commentary, however. Implicit in it is the assumption that someone doesn’t support the men and women in uniform. Behind that supposition lurk the myths and legends of homefront betrayal that have bedeviled American political culture since the Vietnam War, and which have been resuscitated recently by rumors of hostility toward military personnel.
“By early April [2003], stories were circulating in several US cities about uniformed military personnel being spat on or otherwise mistreated. In Asheville, North Carolina, two Marines were rumored to have been spat upon, while in Spokane, Washington, a threat to ‘spit on the troops when they return from Iraq’ was reportedly issued. In Burlington, Vermont, a leader of the state National Guard told local television, ‘We’ve had some spitting incidents,’ and then claimed one of his Guardswomen had been stoned by anti-war teenagers.
“Upon further investigation, none of the stories panned out — the Spokane ‘threat’ stemmed from the misreading of a letter in the local paper promising that opponents of the war would not spit on returning soldiers — and yet, in each case the rumors were used to stoke pro-war rallies.
“Many of the current stories are accompanied by stories of spat-upon Vietnam veterans. The recent story of spitting in Asheville, for example, was traced to a local businessman who says he is a veteran who was also spat upon and called a ‘baby killer’ when he returned from Vietnam. An Associated Press story of April 9 reported stories of spat-upon Vietnam veterans surfacing in several cities including Spicer, Minnesota whose mayor said he was spat upon in the San Francisco airport while coming home from Vietnam in 1971. Similar stories became quite popular during the Gulf War of 1991 which raised my curiosity about where they came from and why they were believed. There is nothing in the historical record — news or police reports, for example — suggesting they really happened.
“In fact, … the historical record is rich with the details of solidarity and mutuality between the anti-war movement and Vietnam veterans. The real truth, in other words, is that anti-war activists reached out to Vietnam veterans and veterans joined the movement in large numbers.
“Stories of spat-upon Vietnam veterans are bogus. Born out of accusations made by the Nixon administration, they were enlivened in popular culture (recall Rambo saying he was spat on by those maggots at the airport) and enhanced in the imaginations of Vietnam-generation men — some veterans, some not. The stories besmirch the reputation of the anti-war movement and help construct an alibi for why we lost the war: had it not been for the betrayal by liberals in Washington and radicals in the street, we could have defeated the Vietnamese. …
“The facsimiles of spat-upon veteran stories that are surfacing now confuse the public dialogue surrounding the war. Debate about the war itself and the politics that got us into it is being displaced by the phony issue of who supports the troops. Everyone supports the troops and wishes them a safe and speedy homecoming. It’s the mission they have been sent on that is dividing the nation and it is the mission that we have a right and obligation to question.
“The ‘support the troops’ symbolism also comes with a hidden agenda, a subtext that is about the anti-war movement. Understandably, the war brings a lot of emotion to the surface …. For some people, the … redirection of their legitimate anger about the deteriorating quality of life in America onto peace activists is shortsighted scapegoating that won’t solve problems.”
Quoted under fair use; for complete article and/or copyright info see http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/ar.....n+veterans
Roger Rabbit Commentary: First of all, there is a rightwing noise factory that spews so many falsehoods to whip up hate that all rightwing claims should be viewed with utmost suspicion. The famous story about Jane Fonda handing notes passed to her by American POWs during a visit to the “Hanoi Hilton” to their captors, resulting in the beating deaths of 3 of the POWs, has been proven a hoax and a lie — manufactured in the rightwing hate factories and given wide circulation by the vast reach of chain e-mail. Likewise, during the 2004 campaign, photos were circulated of John Kerry posing in front of a Vietcong flag and posing on a speaker’s podium with Jane Fonda were widely shopped around — after being “photoshopped” on computers. The photos were fake. You can’t trust anything a winger says. You can’t trust their pictures, either. Basically, everything that comes from these people is a partisan lie.
That said, I have to say from my own experience, that I came home from Vietnam to what I would describe as a hostile environment for returning veterans. I served fairly late in the war, so there were plenty of protests going on when I returned. I flew in to McChord, had my discharge processed at Fort Lewis, then rode on an Army bus to SeaTac Airport for a ride on a civilian airliner to my hometown in another part of the country. As soon as I got off the bus and stepped into the airport concourse, I was confronted with taunting and heckling from a small group of demonstrators (4 to 6 people). And no one said, “Welcone home, soldier” — the vast majority of passengers, airport staff, and other people milling around were absorbed with their own concerns and either ignored the soldiers (I wasn’t the only one) or were indifferent. But the heckling, as minor as it was, was enough to motivate me to immediately go to a rest room and change out of uniform into civvies. Some years later, while riding on a Seattle city bus, I did have a fellow passenger fling a “baby killer” remark my way when he learned I was a Vietnam veteran.
But these incidents were petty, and few and far between. By far the greatest hostility I encountered was from World War 2 and Korean War era adults, who at that time, constituted most of the country’s business owners, hiring mangers, and employers. I quickly found out that telling “the Greatest Generation” you were a Vietnam veteran was a certain job turn-down. They were also the ones who bought into the myth of Vietnam-vet “psycho killers” just itching to climb up on a rooftop and start sniping people. These weren’t your rowdy, bearded, young anti-war demonstrators — what conservatives love to call “hippies.” They were conservative, Nixon-supporting, flag-waving, rock-ribbed Republicans. And they were a bunch of flaming assholes — THEY DIDN’T SUPPORT THE TROOPS.
So, all you troop-hating righties who refused to criticize Bush for trying to eliminate combat pay for our soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq, or for warehousing the wounded in roach-infested hellholes with peeling paint and water-stained ceilings — FUCK YOU! There are few things I despise more than a fake patriot. As a young veteran returning home over 35 years ago, I knew who my friends were, and I also knew who my enemies were — and I’ve been voting Democratic ever since.
The ugly truth is that conservatives USE soldiers and veterans to promote their pro-war agenda. No one suffers from war more than the soldiers who fight it, except for the innocent civilians inevitably caught in the crossfire. No one is less willing to bear the privations and sacrifices of war than those who beat the war drums loudest. It’s all as cynical as hell. And I hope there’s a special place in hell for the conservative warmongers who send others to die in their place, then figuratively (if not literally) spit on them when they come home.
Stylin: as it happens, most of my relatives are Canadian, including an aunt who’s an RN and a cousin who’s a doctor who works in the US because she can make so much more money (and then gets her drugs from home). No, they wouldn’t trade their system for ours. Yes, they’re frustrated over the delays and scarcities in the Canadian system. Know why that is? Because conservative provincial premiers, particularly in Ontario, Alberta (where your mom is from), and B.C. want a more privatized, US-style system and have been chipping away at funding for the last decade and more (just like their counterparts here)- and because docs like my cousin keep leaving for the US and the obscenely high money available for specialists here compared to any other country. You’d really be much better off mouthing off about something you know something about. Assuming that category exists.
Too bad she doesn’t have one for Cheney too.
How about one for BillO?
#34 Roger Rabbit says:
Here is a book from Bob Greene that has documented some real life experiences. Spitting on soldiers did happen.
http://www.amazon.com/Homecomi.....0345364082
(the book also documents good deeds for vets)
38 – Who is this Greene? A columnist? Wingnut? Yet another right winger whipping up hate like Roger described?
The review says he collected 1000 “letters”. How many incidents of spitting? 1000? 500? 100? 20? 2?
Any photographic or film evidence? Not that I can see.
Clueless@27: I like this snopes thread…
#39 YLB says:
Why do facts scare you so much? It’s the truth. It’s not your fault, so relax, no one is blaming you.
#36: If your relatives like their Canadian rationed health care system, then they should be happily living in Canada. But their presence in the US says there ARE taking advantage of american health care, unless they are driving up to Canada to go to the doctor. Are they? Funny how socialists try to blame everyone else for their system not working as they wish it would!
It’s funny to blame our country for the fact that Canada has problems. What will you do? Pass a law forbidding the hiring of Canadian doctors? Forbid supposedly-insured Canadian pregnant women from driving to american hospitals for neo-natal care that they cannot get in their own country? Have canadian border-checkers who will prevent health care workes from leaving? (That freedom thing is SOOO overrated.)
If your relatives are so devoted to the canadian system then they should forget the living they earn here and stay there to put up with what Canada gives them, at least in your mind. You criticize specialists for leaving Canada, yet you don’t criticize your relatives for essentially doing same. It’s really no different. I for one have no probem with what your relatives or all those specialists are doing. The freedom thing, you know?
Apparently, they do not believe they should be a sort of indentured servant of Canada’s rationed health care system. Who could blame them?
The brain drain Canada experiences is proof there is something wrong with the system.
How come we don’t hear all the time about americans WITH health insurance having to wait 8 months for a procedure, or having to drive 7 hours to find a neonatal intensive care ward? These stories are commonplace for Canada. Thank goodness this couple was able to find an american hospital to help them. But really—where WOULD the Canadian system be without american alternatives? To blame the U.S. for Canadian specialist shortages is silly. Few medical professionals would leave THEIR OWN COUNTRY if it was so good for them to stay. Why can’t Canada make it worthwhile for highly skilled health professionals to stay there? Things must be REALLY bad for them to leave their own country. Think how drastic a move that is.
You might move there and take advantage of that system since that is your preference, tho I’m not sure non-citizens can use it. You would surely know. (I did learn today that you as a non-citizen would be forbidden from, say, OWNING a bookstore in Canada.) Whose mom is from Alberta?
@39 “Who is this Greene? A columnist? Wingnut? Yet another right winger whipping up hate like Roger described?”
While in his fifties, Greene forced to resign from the Chicago Tribune for having an affair with a high school student.
That tells me all I need to know.
@38 Given that 2.5 million-plus men and women served in Vietnam, it would be remarkable if there wasn’t a single spitting incident during the approximately 7 years of anti-war protests involving hundreds of thousands of protesters.
But having been involved as a soldier, and observed several anti-war demonstrators, I can say that I never witnessed such an incident and I believe they were very rare — and, when they did occur, were the actions of a few overwrought individuals acting on their own. In the same category as people who key cars or slash tires in the heat of political campaigns — it does happen occasionally because there are always people with poor self-control and bad judgment.
What is clear, though, is that the right has fabricated many stories in an effort to whip up hate against their political opponents, and have systematically exploited veterans and the few cases of soldier-mistreatment that did occur to peddle their pro-war political agenda.
There was not widespread, wholesale, commonplace, systematic mistreatment of veterans of anti-war protesters in the 70s. There was, however, widespread and systematic discrimination against returning veterans by the flag-waving, Republican-voting, employers of that era. To that I can personally attest, as well as by the testimony of many of my veteran friends.
Like I said, I knew who my friends and enemies were, and while I think many of the anti-war protesters were motivated simply by a selfish (but very understandable) desire to not be drafted (as shown by the steep decline in participation in protests after the draft lottery was instituted), I came away from the experience of those years feeling I owed no debt of gratitude to the right.
@39 “Robert Bernard Greene, Jr. (born March 10, 1947) is an American journalist, best known as an award-winning columnist for the Chicago Tribune newspaper for twenty-four years until he was fired for sexual misconduct.
“Greene is the author of books on subjects varying from Michael Jordan to small towns to U.S. presidents. …
“Greene was popular as a columnist but also had critics for what they perceived as excessive sentimentality, heavy writing and repetitive coverage of the same subject ….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Greene
Greene’s first book publisher was Regnery, the rightwing outfit that put out “Unfit for Command,” the lie-laden swiftboat smear against John Kerry, which tells you all you need to know about what his political bias and journalistic objectivity is.
From what little I know of his book on returning Vietnam vets, he did make an effort (as a legitimate journalist would) to check out the stories of vets who claim they were spat upon or otherwise mistreated.
As I stated above, I think some incidents did occur, but were not nearly as commonplace as rightwing propagandaists would have you believe, and were the work of over-emotional individuals rather than a strategy of the organized protest movement.
My own personal experience was that the overwhelmingly common reaction of the American people to returning Vietnam vets like myself was one of indifference, and nowhere was that indifference colder than on the part of the older generation that sent my generation to fight that war.
In fact, the hostility of the WW2 generation to Vietnam veterans was so palpable that the latter formed their own veterans organizations and had little to do with the VFW and American Legion until the WW2 guys had faded away — there was real alienation between those two groups. They seemed to blame the soldiers for not winning in Vietnam; when, in fact, the defeat was due to poor leadership and strategy by the political and military leaders of their generation. They let us down big-time.
I never felt the anti-war protests had any influence on the course of the war. Any damn fool who wore boots on the ground could see the tactics were flawed: Our military commanders ordered soldiers to find the enemy by walking around until got shot at. This “strategy” always gave the enemy the initiative; it let him choose the time, place, and terms of battle. It always gave him the best ground, often with prepared fortifications and fields of fire. It normally guaranteed him numerical superiority, because he could choose to fight only in favorable circumstnaces, and usually let him disengage at will.
This constituted military malpractice, and was a prescription for defeat. Our military leaders staked the outcome of the war on the unproven notion that firepower trumps all other factors, and on the long-ago discredited notion that attrition is a strategy. (It is actually a sign of military failure.)
All you have to do is look at the history of the Civil War, and the world wars — particularly the first world war — to see that good generalship is decisive in war. We didn’t have good generals in Vietnam, and the political leadership was even worse: LBJ and his civilian advisors meddled, micromanaged, and — were wrong in their strategic and military judgments.
#43 Upton says:
How’s bernie Ward doing these days?
For those that don’t know, Bernie Ward is a liberal talk show host charged with a few counts of child porn.
But like all liberals, he blamed it on the hypocrisy of republicans and the religious right.
@41 No, it’s not necessarily “the truth.” It’s a compilation of statements by veterans who may or may not be telling the truth, who may or may not recall long-ago events accurately, who may or may not be giving statements colored by a political agenda or simply a herd influence.
Just because a reporter writes something doesn’t make it true. Daily newspapers are full of factual errors — in fact, news stories hardly ever get the facts completely right. Lawyers know this, because they often work with detailed evidence of events that were reported in the papers, and what actually happened as shown by carefully assembled evidence often diverges from what was hastily reported under daily deadline pressures.
Whatever journalism is, it’s not a particularly reliable arbiter of what is true, and what is not true.
A book author, of course, has more time to assemble information, corroborate it, and mull its credibility. Nevertheless, a journalist such as Greene never gets away from the journalistic convention of reporting WHAT PEOPLE SAID HAPPENED, as opposed to trying to determine WHAT ACTUALLY DID HAPPEN. Reporters do just what the word implies: They report what people said happened. And that’s all they do.
There is a vast gulf between what journalism accepts as sufficient verification, and what the legal system requires in the way of proof — and even the much more rigorous testing of evidence in the legal system produces conclusions that probably are not right much more than half the time. The legal standard of proof in civil actions is “more likely than not;” in journalism, it is far lower … a mere statement by someone who can be quoted as an anonymous source will suffice.
Why do facts scare you so much?
What facts? Where’s the photographic or film evidence?
I won’t take a right wing soldier’s word for it. Remember the swift boaters?
I was in the Army in the early 1980’s. I was told by many of the guys who had been in the army during the Vietnam era that abuse of returning military personnel did happen and had happened to them…Including spitting, verbal abuse, and in at least one instance being pushed around by a mob. It wasn’t a big secret back then. I remember seeing news reports in the late sixties and seventies of soldiers being mistreated.
Roger, while I most definitely disagree with your political views, and conclusions in general, I have to say that I respect your service.
YLB with your snotty little “right wing soldier” comment? Piss off!
I-Burn:
Clueless@49 needs to see it in Kos or Media Morons for him to believe it. He guzzles their warm white sticky kool-aid.
I-Burn:
One of Clueless@49’s favorite web sites:
http://www.hymn.ru/index-en.html
Notice his hero in the center left.
@47 Marvin Stamm says “How’s bernie Ward doing these days?”
Don’t really know what Ward has to with it. The discussion was about Greene, Lembcke, and the somewhat dubious claims of some Vietnam vets.
I was told by many of the guys who had been in the army during the Vietnam era
Where’s the film or photographic evidence? What you’re talking about in a court of law is called hearsay.
Are you lying? Given your posting history, it’s highly likely.
And the swift boaters were vets too.
They lied their asses off.
@52…Puddy…
I think the following is more YippyLil’Boy’s speed:
http://www.korea-dpr.com/
With his favorite national anthem here:
http://studweb.euv-frankfurt-o.....anthem.mp3
The Piper
56 – Screw you loser. I believe in freedom. You crave authoritarian rule.
When your ugly, corrupt party is mowed down in November, you’ll continue to scream your wretched bilge cribbed from discredited talking points.
It’s all you have left.
The 25 December Randi Rhodes replay began with a quiet Christmas carol called Bounce Your Boobies, then went straight to lies. RR said that the great FDR, unlike the sub-bestial Bush, would not have exploited national tragedy. After Pearl Harbor, said Rhodes, FDR said ‘we have nothing to fear but fear itself.’
Of course FDR used that recycled bromide about fear in 1933, long before Pearl Harbor, but never mind. All’s fair on Air America.
Then Rhodes approved Weird Al Gore’s statement that authors of the Constitution faced retribution from Britain for writing a Bill of Rights. This, preposterously, would have been about five years after Yorktown.
Then Rhodes said that ‘they,’ the people who got RFK and MLK, tried to poison Democrats (Leahy, Dashell) with anthrax. Anthrax went only to Democrats, so our first bioterror attack was run by the half-vast right-wing conspiracy.
Here’s what really happened, as reported in last week’s Newsweek in an excerpt from Jacob Weisberg’s recent book:
In a November 2001 speech to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Cheney offered this definition [of the Bush Doctrine]: “We will hold those who harbor terrorists, those who provide sanctuary to terrorists, responsible for their acts.”
But by the time Cheney spoke those words, a second wave of terrorism had already exposed the inadequacy of Doctrine 2.0. The anthrax attacks in New York and Washington created a sense of vulnerability that was in many respects greater than the mass murder at the World Trade Center and Pentagon. Inside the administration, the October bioterror attacks had a larger impact than is generally appreciated—one in many ways bigger than 9/11. Without the anthrax attacks, Bush probably would not have invaded Iraq.
At that point, nearly everyone involved in national security assumed there would be another wave of terrorist attacks. The daily intelligence summary substantiated this panic; “chatter” was at record levels. In an effort to understand the potential threat, Cheney’s chief of staff I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby ordered up a briefing on a war game, known as “Dark Winter,” which modeled a smallpox outbreak in an American city in much the way “continuity of government” exercises Cheney had participated in during the 1980s simulated nuclear catastrophe.
According to a source close to Bush, Cheney swiftly reported back to the Oval Office with a sobering message: the United States was essentially defenseless against the most likely form of assault, a biological attack. “I sat through the most gruesome briefing in the Oval Office about anthrax, how it could spread, and how we had no defenses,” Bush’s first press secretary, Ari Fleischer, told me in the summer of 2007. “Dick Cheney was the strongest advocate of the possibility of attack and need to prepare for it.”
Then on October 4 the worst fears inside the White House were realized. Bush choked up as he thanked government workers in a morning speech at the State Department. Ari Fleischer reports that he had “never before and never since seen the president look as tired and as troubled as he did that morning.” When they returned to the White House, Bush called Fleischer into his office and explained the reason: he had just learned that a Florida man had been stricken with anthrax. Bush feared it was the dreaded second wave.
Another anthrax letter, never recovered (or at least never disclosed), was apparently sent to the White House. On October 22, anthrax was found on an automated slitter used to open letters at a Secret Service facility in an undisclosed location some miles away. This meant the White House was a target of biological terrorism.
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#55 YLB says:
All I need to say is… It was seared into my memory. HAHAHAHA
Considering he still hasn’t released all his records like he he said he would, I don’t believe a single accusation from the swiftboaters was proved to be false. We have the throwing of “his” medals over the fence in protest. That turned out to be a lie. The little story about the hat. Lie. Refused to release medical records.
Something else that never gets talked about. Kerry told this story that was seared in his mind for decades. No one ever did the math.