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“Or you can drive your car!”

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  1. 1

    Pierce County Democratic Party Spaghetti Dinner Straw poll results!

    Edwards: 38%
    Kucinich: 19%
    Obama: 19%
    Biden: 9%
    Dodd: 7%
    Clinton: 3%
    Gravel: 3%
    Al Gore (write-in): 1%
    John Ladenberg for Attorney General (write-in): 1%
    Richardson: 0%

    Results entirely unscientific of actual support in Pierce County of course.

  4. 4

    Hmmm … interesting. I don’t think Dodd, Kucinich, or Edwards have a chance. This is a 2-person race between Obama and Clinton. I’m still undecided. If I had to choose right now from that list, I’d go with Gore, but he’s not running.

  5. 5

    On the GOP side, frankly I don’t think it makes any difference who they nominate because they’re going to lose regardless, but I would find a 3-way race between Clinton, Giuliani, and Bloomberg amusing. Giuliani and Bloomberg would split the Republican vote. Clinton would end up with something in the vicinity of 42%, like her husband did, but the GOP candidate likely would be under 30% and come in third. That, combined with a GOP wipeout in Congress, would seriously discombobulate if not utterly destroy the Republican Party. At best, they’d resemble the tangled wreckage of 1964. But I think this time their problems are much deeper and a fiasco of this magnitude could relegate them to permanent minor-party status. Bloomberg, who’s richer than Perot and not as crazy, might be in a position to launch a successful movement to create a new major party built on Republican-centrist principles. Having such a party take over the GOP’s role in our national political life would be a vast improvement over continuation of the neoconvict-theocrazy cult the GOP has turned into.

  6. 6

    According to the Strategic Vision poll in early October, Clinton has a commanding lead statewide:

    Hillary Clinton 48%
    Barack Obama 22%
    John Edwards 10%
    Bill Richardson 5%
    Joseph Biden 3%
    Christopher Dodd 1%
    Dennis Kucinich 1%
    Undecided 10%

    On the Republican side, the poll respondents favored Giuliani:

    Rudy Giuliani 37%
    Fred Thompson 20%
    Mitt Romney 11%
    John McCain 10%
    Mike Huckabee 4%
    Ron Paul 4%
    Tom Tancredo 2%
    Sam Brownback 1%
    Duncan Hunter 1%
    Undecided 10%

    http://www.strategicvision.biz.....101207.htm

  7. 7

    Coz driving cars is what’s rock and roll.

    And like, uh, 99% of americans do it.

    And literally 90% of puget-sound people commute that way.

    Fuck, why bother being transit man in Seattle?

  9. 9

    @7 yes your logic is impeccable.

    At one time 99% of all people travelled by horse. So obviously inventing cars and trains was a big mistake.
    Yes, look around, all the nations with cars and trains are in a pitiful state.

  11. 11

    All you transit sycophants better deal with increasing and unconscionable levels of violence on buses and, in Portland’s case, light rail.

    Read http://archives.seattletimes.n.....o+violence

    And also http://www.oregonlive.com/news.....038;coll=7

    Why would or should the public support any type of transit when it’s merely an invitation to a mugging…or worse? When either individual youths armed with a knives or gangs of toughs (wonder who these young voters support among the Demo prexy candidates?) are allowed to roam unfettered at transit stations or board buses and beat passengers while the driver turns a blind eye, it’s no wonder the public says, “Screw you!” to the guilt trips laid upon them for not being more socially and environmentally responsible in their transportation choices.

    Sure, decreasing the population is a green alternative, but not when it comes about by one’s own murder while travelling to or from work on the bus or train.

    Do we need transit marshalls armed with shotguns? To date, the agencies running these rolling killing fields seem to take a blase attitude about increasing levels of violence…almost the same way they’re blase about increasing levels of taxation they demand in support of their buses and trains.

    Oh, well…as long as the officials get their paychecks, a few beatings and stabbings here and there is simply the price the public has to pay, and let there be no complaint about it or you’ll find your local school shuttered, your park untended, and police and fire services mysteriously cut!

    After all, the public exists to play Eloi to government’s Morlock.

    The Piper

  13. 13

    Will,

    You needed to use this like I did during the Prop. 1 debate man. You’re all of five weeks late man.

    Although, Vern Fonk commercials are like a tuxedo t-shirt. Good for any occassion…

  14. 14

    Piper, we need more Bernard Hugo Goetz’ in Portland! But wait the liberazzi will go ape shit over a Bernard Hugo Goetz type.

    Don’t tell me you liberals forgot who Bernard Hugo Goetz is?

    Liberalism is truly a mental disorder.

  17. 17

    @16…YP…

    Ah, the old, “Can’t face the facts, so undermine their validity and truth,” argument…

    The incidents reported in the links I used either happened, or they didn’t. If they did, they evidence a disturbing and little acknowledged problem with bus and light rail transit: passenger on passenger violence without sufficient sponsoring agency safety or security measures either in place beforehand or as a response thereto.

    Which is it? Are you contending that what happened didn’t happen? Or are you, in true sycophant, lefty loon fashion, dismissing them as irrelevent?

    The Piper

  18. 18

    @14…P…

    Bernard Goetz, New York’s subway vigilante, isn’t what I want. I want an acknowledgement from those who demand we all cattle-car to work and home again that there is a serious downside to that ride: personal injury occasioned by violent attacks.

    Then I want them to tell me who they’ll either put a stop to it immediately on busses and light rail, and then, by extension, societally; which of their social theories that “tolerate” this behavior will they scrap?

    Also, let’s here their security plans and what ought to be done with the perps who do this stuff? Stern talking-to’s aren’t a sufficient response.

    The Piper

  21. 21

    Piper:
    Sorry – you haven’t made a cogent argument. If you want to claim that mass transit (busses and trains ) are more dangerous than cars – then compare the statistics for automobile accidents, road rage incidents etc. (injuries and deaths) to the statistics for those taking mass transit and compare them per person.

    Just because you “feel’ more safe in the car is not an argument – you need facts not just “feelings”.

    Until you compare those statistics – you have no argument.

  22. 22

    @21…CNR…

    Yours is a false analogy. It has nothing to do with feeling safe in cars and everything to do with real violence on busses and light rail stations.

    From the Oregonian article I cited, above:

    “TriMet has to take crime seriously and put officers on MAX trains immediately, Gresham Mayor Shane Bemis said Friday following the stabbing of a 19-year-old man at a Gresham MAX station.”

    Again…”TriMet has to take crime seriously…”

    From the Seattle Times article I cited, above:

    “The (civil lawsuit against Metro) trial, which will continue next week, strikes at an issue that concerns many bus riders: With Metro ridership at a 30-year high, more and more riders have recently found themselves in threatening situations, transit agency statistics show.”

    Again…”…more and more riders have recently found themselves in threatening situations, transit agency statistics show.”

    You can dismiss these facts – facts: events that actually happened – all you wish, but that doesn’t make them go away, and they’re creating an increasing public perception that riding the bus or a TriMet train is unsafe.

    When you drive a car, at least you’re in some degree of control of the situation. With Metro and TriMet, you become an unwitting and totally innocent victim of crime over which you have no control and over which the governmental agencies responsible for Metro and TriMet seem not to adequately address.

    Your comparative danger dismissal of the real problem of transit crime ends up adding insult to injury since it presumes that as long as there are auto accidents or problems with those who drive, those who encounter problems on a bus or light rail are estopped from complaining.

    In other words, that you are a crime victim isn’t important because there are other crime victims elsewhere.

    Whether the roads are a haven of rest or a Hell on earth is unimportant and irrelevent; it’s a fact that to ride a bus or take light rail is to risk violence because it happens, and the agencies who operate them either don’t do enough to protect passengers or don’t give operators the discretion to call in help.

    You can’t dismiss what has, in fact, happened; it’s there, so deal with it.

    The Piper

  23. 23

    Piper @22: No one is disputing facts, but you make a gross generalization and draw a biased conclusion.

    How many passengers take public transportation every day? Of those, how many are murdered or beaten up? How many are even harassed or threatened? Are the rates of crime on buses different from the rates of crime in the surrounding areas in which these incidents occur?

    Can you show that buses are being specifically targeted for crime and that security on buses is worse than in the surrounding community?

    You say that hopping on a bus is “merely an invitation to a mugging…or worse.” You call buses “rolling killing fields.” And based on what? The Times article says that because ridership has increased, “more and more riders have recently found themselves in threatening situations, transit agency statistics show.” Well, duh. And I guess a “threatening situation” is the same as murder and mugging.

    These incidents should be taken seriously, but for what they are, and something should be done about them. They do not prove that hopping a bus to get to work puts your life at risk.

  24. 24

    Piper @22: No one is disputing facts, but you make a gross generalization and draw a biased conclusion.

    How many passengers take public transportation every day? Of those, how many are murdered or beaten up? How many are even harassed or threatened? Are the rates of crime on buses different from the rates of crime in the surrounding areas in which these incidents occur?

    Can you show that buses are being specifically targeted for crime and that security on buses is worse than in the surrounding community?

    You say that hopping on a bus is “merely an invitation to a mugging…or worse.” You call buses “rolling killing fields.” And based on what? The Times article says that because ridership has increased, “more and more riders have recently found themselves in threatening situations, transit agency statistics show.” Well, duh. And I guess a “threatening situation” is the same as murder and mugging.

    These incidents should be taken seriously, but for what they are, and something should be done about them. They do not show that hopping a bus puts your life at unusual risk.

  25. 25

    Piper:
    Driving under the influence: Crime (ask Jane Hague – or just smell her breath since a breath test won’t count).

    Road rage: Crime

    Drive-by-shooting: Crime

    Running a red light and hitting a pedestrian or bicylist: Crime

    Now – what are the statistics on crime for people taking mass transit versus just a few of these driving crimes?

  27. 27

    @24…YP…& @25…CNR…

    I’m not the one who’s made the connection between riding a bus or light rail and danger, several attorneys, elected and applointed public officials (including public safety personnel), the media, and the general public have already made the connection.

    Bell’s been rung, boys, and you can’t get the ding back now.

    Re-read the articles I linked, then do some easy follow up; the problem is out there, it’s growing, and the an increasing public perception has it as a serious issue. In this situation, I’m only reporting the news, but, in typical HA Happy Hooligan fashion, the die-hards are dismissing it or explaining it away.

    On the one hand that’s pretty sad, while on the other it exhibits a usual cluelessness that discredits the liberal POV.

    The Piper

  29. 29

    the problem is out there, it’s growing, and the an increasing public perception has it as a serious issue.

    Millions of people use public transit safely everyday. If the crime stats are up, then you deal with the problem.

    You’re just peddling more right wing fear and bullshit.

    If oil goes over a hundred a barrel, more people are going to use public transit. That’s a gimmee. It’s expensive to run a car.

  30. 30

    “With bus ridership at a 30 year high,” the number of riders vacating seats at the front of the bus for sweet old ladies has increased to levels never seen before. Conservatives suspect a Communist plot.

  31. 31

    Everyone that rides the bus should be forced to pack a
    handgun. That would end the problem.

  32. 32

    @29…YLB…

    Hey! I’m not making this stuff up! Read the stories on this subject in the Seattle and Portland papers. The fear is out there, and I don’t need to do a thing to fan it.

    You seem to dismiss it is an inconvenient irrelevance. Commuters who are trapped in those situations might beg to differ.

    I submit that as long as people value privacy and independence, they’ll continue to drive.

    The Piper

  33. 33

    @32: The point is that the fear is often based on distortion. If there are unusually high crime rates on buses, you’ve provided no proof of it. If there actually is high crime/risk, no one here is against stepping up law enforcement and security (no one is against putting security guards in parking structures or cops on the streets either). To say that the whole transit system is unsafe, without qualification, because of two newspaper stories about isolated crimes, is baloney.

    If the argument is that because some incidents happen somewhere, at some time, it’s not worth it to take the bus, I happen to disagree. You mention independence and privacy. Independence (from parking, fueling, maintenance, and driving) is why I take the bus. What little I give up in privacy is well worth it. I happen to wear pants while driving, and it’s no different while riding the bus. YMMV.

  34. 34

    @33…YP…

    You dismiss the news reports because you don’t agree with what they report. Yet you offer nothing by way of solution. And it’s not just two, BTW…there are other reports of safety issues both in Seattle and Portland…read: http://portland.indymedia.org/.....4078.shtml

    Written by a TriMet driver, check out: http://www.oregonlive.com/comm.....038;coll=7

    “The recent increase in crime connected with the MAX light-rail trains in the areas around Portland, Gresham and Beaverton has me concerned. I have lived here for over 50 years, and I cannot think of a time when there has been so much violence.

    As a TriMet bus driver for the past 10 years, I have had knives and guns pulled on me. I have been hit numerous times in the head with fists and even cell phones. I have had riders spit and bleed on me. None of these incidents ever made it into the news. Other drivers have had to wait on pins and needles for months at a time to find out whether they have been exposed to hepatitis C or HIV. Some drivers have even been shot or knifed.”

    The facts speak for themselves, and the public isn’t happy with the poor to zilch response of sponsoring agencies to make what is increasingly regarded as unsafe…safe.

    Just because you don’t care, doesn’t mean others must share that POV.

    The Piper

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