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  1. 1

    huh? we should yell and scream with a plan to cave in any way, and to pursue this plan, we should say that’s our plan in public?

    this makes no sense.

    Far more effective would be just getting the minimal watered down bill passed asap and DO NOT count your chickens before they are hatched.

    And in the meantime start organizing the public education to insist Democrats end the 60 vote cloture rule for good.

    That’s where our energy should go. It’s rather pointless and useless to keep screaming about public option or abortion or any of the other compromises when in the end

    we need a bill that gets 60 votes in the senate anyway.

    So everyone knows this kind of yelling and screaming is just posturing anyway.

    How’s about attacking the root of the problem, the 60 vote rule?

  4. 4

    Just remember that the final bill to be signed into law won’t necessarily be the watered-down Senate bill. That still has to be merged with the House bill, so let the Republican (and Lieberman)-free negotiations begin!

  5. 5

    @4

    Ah, good point. Time to bombard the congressional folks with emails.

    Remember kids, there has to be consequences for peoples actions.

  6. 6

    This bill isn’t everything I want. I want a debate over single payer. I want a debate where I could opt in (and pay for) access to the same system veterans get (the VA). For single payer, where was the debate to allow ANYONE to buy into medicare?

    The democrats showed their willingness to deal with anyone in their deals with Liberman and with Nelson, yet not one Republican stepped up. In debates, Republicans would rail against this part or that part, but it was just a show. The famous scene of Thune and Franken was sad. If the the bill changed the timelines, would Thune have voted for it? No.

    Gone are the days of ‘What will it take’. Gone is debate.

  7. 7

    the country is going to shit. there is an infamous quote by joseph p kennedy, not widely talked about to protect the kennedy legacy, but he says “they ruin everything they touch”. jeez, i wonder what group he was talking about?

  9. 9

    Today, Harry Truman’s dream of national health care is one step closer to becoming a reality. I am proud and happy.

  10. 10

    I wish the bill was more about health care and less about health insurance….

    When they made the solution around providing health insurance to all is when I realized our elected officials do not act in our best interest.

  11. 11

    It brings us within striking distance of universal coverage and that’s reason enough to accept it despite what it doesn’t contain.

    Wingnut Whiners: Fuck you. That’s all I have to say to you. Jerks.

  14. 14

    huh @ 1–
    The 60-vote cloture rule will be something you will want 4 years from now…
    Here is the way it is going for Progressives–

    Thursday, December 24, 2009

    The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Thursday shows that 27% of the nation’s voters Strongly Approve of the way that Barack Obama is performing his role as President. Forty-three percent (43%) Strongly Disapprove giving Obama a Presidential Approval Index rating of -16

    I believe the 60-vote Cloture rule benefits the country in the long-run. It doesn’t allow bad Legislation to be forced thru. You may be upset that it is a “roadblock” today…but if you get rid of it, the day will come that you will dread that decision. Besides, Lieberman would never support getting rid of it.

    Now, on to the rest of the Health Care sham and then off to Court!

  15. 15

    @2 mot

    Is the 24th a Jewish Holiday? .. what holiday might that be?

    I do hope that ou plan on celebrating Jesus’ Bris? Do you even know when it is?

  16. 16

    @3 and 13 Just so you know, if any troll comes along and dumps a shitload of hate on you on Christmas Eve it’s probably only because they’re confused by your choice of a screen name, which just happens to be the same one I’ve been using for the last couple years while commenting on the utterly disgusting, degrading and despicable things our wingnut friends do to their goats.

    Hey, Merry Christmas everyone! And Happy Holidays to emilia, Mr. Klynical and Puddy!

    heh- Just kidding. A Merry Christmas to you guys too!

  19. 19

    Whither Healthcare?

    1. Reconciliation: tax base

    This needs a LOT of progressive pressure. Important issues are seeing that the tax base includes the tax on families above 250k, This creates a critical precedent for health care being funded form the general fund rather than from a regressive kludge like SS. Support the House.

    2. National Health Insurance Exchange.

    Both bills have this and this DOES create a national health care system. Exchanges should be national, NOT state based as in the Senate bill. We already have such a program for Federal Employees so this is not a huge step. The major reason we need the house version is that the senate proposes state by state exchanges. Since a state may have as few as 2 or 3 companies, state exchanges do littler to create competition.

    BTW John McCain campaigned FOR a nation exchange. Support McCain and the House.

    3. Rationalize Medicare Cuts

    Neither bill does this in an effective way. The underlying issue is cost shifting. Currently Medicare pays a part of the bill for the uninsured because those costs are shifted to all insured patients.

    If National Health care works at all, the change in cost shifting should be used to offset costs of medicare. This ought to be explicit.

    Unfortunately, both bills also include top down efforts to control costs by setting payment levels rather than negotiating them. This is not likely to work politically. Offsetting this with tax funds, perhaps using the House tax idea, would be great.

    Support the House.

    4. Cut the Pork

    Of ALL bills this one ought to minimize pork. The obvious examples in Nebraska and Louisiana have been oversimplified. Louisiana especially DOES gave a unique problem because of Katrina and because the state is amongst the last to still have “charity” It would do us ALL well to replace this as pork with some national rules in re federal mandates that would address a wider set of state by state issues.

    Support Obama’s Technocrats

    5. Death Panels

    We NEED mechanisms to assess quality and quantity. Calling them death panels is a disgusting piece of unpatriotic propaganda.

    Both bills already contain similar mechanisms for oversight. Strengthen ing these committees by assuring transparency and insulting them from interest group politics is critical to making the system work.

    I have no idea who can help this happen but would really like to see BHO get VERY tough on this. One way to do this might be to keep insurance companies OFF of the commissions. Ideally the commissions would be comprised of objective scientists, perhaps under the NIH.
    A structure like the FDA is worth considering, i.e. a structure that is seen as objective.

    Support SJ as Chair of Federal Commission on Death Panels

  22. 22

    On Christmas

    I hope the Christians here will reflect on the meanings of this holiday, a celebration of the birth of a Jewish child, conceived out of wedlock.

    Your Jesus grew up in a time where the Romans understood that theirs was the superior civilization, a model all others should be made to follow. Some Jews resisted, Jews who preached that adherence to Jewish law and ethics could persist alongside tolerance of the repressor. Those Jews were the Pharisees.

    The Pharisees and their followers were persecuted by both the Romans and by a Jewish priesthood all to willing to accept Roman rule.

    Somehow, throughout the millenia of repression, destruction of Jerusalem, crusades, slavery, inquisition, the KKK, a faint note survives of the lessons taught by the Pharisees .. be true to yourself.

    Peace.

  24. 24

    @15
    I do hope that ou plan on celebrating Jesus’ Bris

    seattle jew, did you ever read portnoy’s complaint? that’s kind of how his father feels when he says “that they worship a jew is beyond my comprehension”.

  27. 27

    SJ,

    I never did get that ritual of cutting off the ends of pee-pees. What’s the story on that, and don’t you think it’s time we stopped doing something so obviously painful to a little kid? I rate circumcision up there with female genital mutilations practiced by some remote tribes in places really, really far away.

  29. 29

    27/28 Let the mohel jokes begin…it’ll be a welcome break from the usual flood of political vitriol.

  30. 30

    ArtFart @29:

    27/28 Let the mohel jokes begin…it’ll be a welcome break from the usual flood of political vitriol.

    Here’s a tip for you, ArtFart … it would be better to nip this one in the bud.

  31. 31

    @30
    Here’s a tip for you, ArtFart … it would be better to nip this one in the bud.

    hey n seattle, do you also feel it should be nipped in the bud when the media is full of antichristian propaganda?

  32. 32

    Merry Christmas to all posters here.

    Yes, even to rujax and ylb.

  33. 33

    @27 PI

    The differences between circumcision of males and infundibulation of females is that one produces no known loss of function or permanent pain.

    So, the worst one can say of circumcision is that it is a cosmetic procedure .. like ear piercing.

    Actually, there is real evidence that circumcision does have some benefits in re a decrease of sexually transmitted diseases.

    As to how much it hurts a baby, done by a trained mohel it is very rare that any discomfort lasts long. In contrast diapering kids (something some cultures avoid) causes great discomfort and even significant disease.

    You picks your culture and its rituals!

  37. 37

    @14 — wrong. I don’t want the 60 vote cloture rule, ever.
    The 60 vote cloture rule is wrong and perverse, no matter what side uses it.
    Seriously, the Democrats hardly ever even used the cloture rules but hey, if the GOP wins a majority in the Senate next time, why yes, fair play and the devotion to majority rule means yes, they should be able to have votes without facing the artifical minority-empowering 60 vote cloture barrier to democracy.

    IOW nice try but am not taking your bait, buddy.

    Merry xmas.

  38. 38

    huh,

    It was your team in 1975 who made it 60 votes. So talk to your team cuz we who think continually right aren’t involved.

  39. 39

    Roger Dumb Bunny, universal coverage? Through a big funding lie? Even the CBO couldn’t agree with Hairy Reid and his funding schemes.

    Oh lookie here some batshit crazy fool crawled out of the slime@35-36.

  40. 40

    @21 It might make an interesting test case to determine whether Civil Rule 11 sanctions can be applied to a state.

  41. 41

    @31 “when the media is full of antichristian propaganda?”

    WTF are you prattling about?

  42. 42

    @32 How come you left me out? Got it in for rabbits? Do you discriminate against nativists? I’m going to file a Human Rights Commission complaint against you! I’m gonna sue!

  44. 44

    @39 You swine spent plenty of money to liberate Iraqis! Why do you hate your fellow Americans so much you’d deny their kids medical care for want of a few shekels?

  45. 45

    That crazy guy who shot those two deputies had “two 30.06 rifles, a .223 Bushmaster rifle, an AK47 remake, a sniper rifle, a .357 revolver, and a Glock 27, among others.”

    You need a government license to drive a car or cut someone’s hair, but not to own an arsenal larger than what some third-world countries have.

    Why?

  51. 51

    @39 You swine spent plenty of money to liberate Iraqis! Why do you hate your fellow Americans so much you’d deny their kids medical care for want of a few shekels?

    What does that have to do with Democratics and double accounting.

    What a dumb bunny!

  52. 52

    The thing that refers to itself in the third person demonstrates that even wingnuts sometimes get things right (if incomplete) @38:

    huh,

    It was your team in 1975 who made it 60 votes. So talk to your team cuz we who think continually right aren’t involved.

    The number — actually, it’s 3/5 of Senators voting, but that translates to 60/100 — and year are correct. But it neglects to point out that the 1975 rules decreased the votes needed for cloture, from 2/3 (meaning 67/100) to its current 3/5.

    Imagine the gridlock if that change hadn’t been made. And consider how rarely the filibuster was used back when both parties, rather than just one, contained human beings who care about their nation’s citizens and their future.

  53. 53

    To the fool@52 who uses the single letter…

    That reference was the last time the senate rule was changed and who changed it.

    Stay stupid you prove it every day in every way.

  55. 55

    SJ said:

    “So, the worst one can say of circumcision is that it is a cosmetic procedure .. like ear piercing.”

    No, I’d say cutting away at little people’s genitalia is pretty goddam barbaric, not cosmetic. The “ritual” is barbaric, too.

  57. 57

    @51 Everyone else understood it … why didn’t you? Since you’re such a simpleton, I’ll spell it out for you. I was merely pointing out the HYPOCRISY of wingnuts who squandered 1 TRILLION DOLLARS on a completely unnecessary war in Iraq bitching and moaning about spending a few hundred billion to provide health care to 30 million uninsured Americans. In other words, you pigs are willing to spend taxpayer money to kill people in foreign lands for God-knows-what reason (i.e., we never did get the REAL reason out of you*), but you scream bloody murder if someone wants to spend a little tax money helping the people who paid the taxes! You’re a creep, puddy, and all your wingnut pals are creeps, too. You’re all a sick, twisted, bunch of psychos. Does that help? Is it clear now?

    * As Disraeli pointed out, everyone has two reasons for what they do, a good reason and the real reason.

  59. 59

    @38:

    “Puddybud Remembers Progressives Forget spews:

    huh, It was your team in 1975 who made it 60 votes. So talk to your team cuz we who think continually right aren’t involved.”

    Hey idjit I am talking to my team. I am talking to your team. I am talking to everyone. The 60 vote rule is not democratic and must go. got it? This applies to Ds and Rs. If you need more explanation I will be happy to spell out “D” and “R”.

    And btw both sides have used restrictive cloture rules, most impt.ly to block civil rights legislation. Is that why you support the nondemocratic 60 vote rule? Keeping mum on it, for tactical advantage? Come on, tell us what you think. I am listening.

    @52 thank you for giving us some facts. Your facts show that @38 is a shameless liar who’s dishonest enough to paint a reduction in the no. of votes as an unqualified act of support for the rule. Obviously if the dems wanted to lower the number the GOP didn’t, so @38 is a liar to try and twist the facts.

    @53 — you are just as bad. We get important context and you derive it, in a shamelessly dishonorable manner, without regard to facts and fair play.

    This is the kind of person who says we need the cloture rules to block majority rule. They lie. They twist. They don’t play fair. They have no honor. They are traitors to the ideals of our constitution — which does not have this supermajority requirement and has other ones indicating the senate is free to operate in the normal manner.

    They side with the slaveowners and the opponents of civil rights the racists who used the cloture rules to block change.

    Disgusting. Because you all lie you should get lumps of coal in your stockings. I take back the merry xmas wishes. Folks like you are poisoning the democratic process in our nation and fortunately most of you are dying out and will be gone pretty soon.The fact you have to lie and never argue based on principles shows you don’t have any arguments, at all, which implicitly acknowledges our side is right. UIt’s the same as the big lie that we got out of the depression thru smaller govt. and lower taxes, the lie that nationalized health care doesn’t work, and leads to oppression, the lie that there is no climate change, and all your other lies and frauds. You’re dopey tools of the megacorporations and you don’t even know it.

  60. 60

    Man of Truth: As far as I and everyone else knows, Harry Reid is a Mormon, not a Jew, and the other Dem leader, Nancy Pelosi, is a Catholic. But since you’re blinded by anti-Semitism, perhaps you know something different.

    And Congress takes a two-week recess at Easter. 14 days. That isn’t enough for you?

  61. 61

    Republicans vote to prevent 30 million people from getting access to health care. Not exactly a news flash.

  62. 62

    huh? is such a stupid moron.

    They side with the slaveowners and the opponents of civil rights the racists who used the cloture rules to block change.

    Wrong moron. Recheck your historical facts.

    @53 — you are just as bad. We get important context and you derive it, in a shamelessly dishonorable manner, without regard to facts and fair play.

    Who last changed to rules moron? That’s all Puddy discussed. You and other libtardos read more than what’s on the pixels.

  63. 63

    Democratics vote to give 30 million people access to health care through slight of hand, lying about deficit realities and worthless accounting tricks. Not exactly a news flash.

  64. 64

    63 p

    lying about deficit realities

    Bullshit. Check the other thread. Whatever Isane Senator Jeff Sessions claims, it is indisputable your own links establish that the actual CBO numbers are that the Senate bill would reduce the dficit by $130 bllion in the next ten-year budget period. Period. You asshole.

  65. 65

    Daddy Love diddling in unrealistic dreams again. It was the CBO (link previously supplied) who said the Dummocrapts are double dipping. Daddy Love if you don’t consider the trust fund as part of the federal budget, then the bill does not lower the deficit because more money will be borrowed (thus increasing the deficit) from the trust fund. You can’t borrow money against Medicare now for making the health care bill to look good and then “claim” it’ll be paid back in the future. Get it? That’s what Hairy Reid is trying to pull off here.

    From a unified budget perspective, any increase in revenues or decrease in outlays in the HI trust fund represents cash that can be used to finance other government activities without requiring new government borrowing from the public. Similarly, any increase in outlays or decrease in revenues in the HI trust fund in some future year represents a draw on the government’s cash in that year….

    The key point is that the savings to the HI trust fund under the PPACA would be received by the government only once, so they cannot be set aside to pay for future Medicare spending and, at the same time, pay for current spending on other parts of the legislation or on other programs. Trust fund accounting shows the magnitude of the savings within the trust fund, and those savings indeed improve the solvency of that fund; however, that accounting ignores the burden that would be faced by the rest of the government later in redeeming the bonds held by the trust fund.

    Puddy knows Daddy Love didn’t read the CBO report… What liars and frauds Dummocraptic Senators are. It’s insulting to peeps who think that this is what the average Dummocraptic American wants real peeps to believe this pablum. That’s why Daddy Love likes to Stay Stupid. He demonstrates it every day.

  66. 66

    Oh and Daddy Love, why is the Medicare Doctors payment offset bill of $240+ Billion not in the Senate Health Care bill? Why did the Dummocrapts led by Debbie Stabenow create a physician-payments bill in a separate, non-offset vehicle from healthcare reform? Why did Hairy Reid, Chris Dodd, Max Baucus, & White House Health Reform Director Nancy-Ann DeParle meet in private and not in front of C-SPAN cameras with the AMA and other physician lobbying groups to pull the wool over thinking peeps eyes? Why is that separate Daddy Love? It’s more for da deficit!

  68. 68

    Well i’ve said it before and I will say it again. I will go to prison before I go on goverment health care. Been there done that. Want nothing to do with it. Also, it is unconstitutional.

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