There are two ways to look at state Senate Majority Leader Lisa Brown’s income tax proposal. I suppose you could, as her office has done, brand it a “high earners income tax,” and in many ways, it is just that. Or, it would also be quite accurate to describe it as a “flat-tax,” the mythical creature of fair taxation to which all righties aspire. (At least, those who believe in taxation at all.)
After all, Sen. Brown’s proposal would impose a single tier flat-tax of 4.5 percent, with a single personal exemption of $200,000 per individual, or $400,000 per household. Those earning, say, $40,000,000 a year would be taxed at the same exact rate as those earning $400,001. Everybody gets the same exemption, and everybody pays the same rate on the remainder; what could be fairer or flatter than that?
Sure, the Brown proposal includes an awfully big personal exemption, but lots of taxes include exemptions. Our federal income tax includes a sizable exemption, as does our state B&O tax. Indeed, the conservative Washington Policy Center has argued for raising the B&O exemption to $200,000 or even higher for new businesses. Indeed, it’s tempting to call tax exemptions a downright conservative concept.
So I have a hard time understanding why the Seattle Times and other conservative critics so vehemently oppose Sen. Brown’s classically conservative flat-tax proposal?
2010: High earners only income tax, 9% sales tax
2013: High & medium high earners income tax, 9.2% sales tax
2015: Income tax “fairness” extends income tax to middle class, sales tax 9.4%
2017: Additional “high earners” income surtax, sales tax 9.7%
Ad infinitum.
Lisa Brown and the rest of the Democratic clowns in Olympia can go bugger themselves. I’m plucking chickens for feathers, who’s bringing the tar?
Delbert, Brown’s proposal reduces sales tax by 1.3%. The statewide rate would be 6%, with the local rate being above 8% in some places. (For example, my current local rate is 9.5%. Under this proposal, it would go to 8.2%.)
The net effect is that 100% of people will pay less in sales tax, and less than 1% of households will pay 4.5% on a small portion of their income. For 99+% of the population that’s a tax cut.
@2 And you completely miss the point. Taxes never go away. They creep up incrementally over time.
I will accept an income tax only if the sales tax is constitutionally abolished at the same time (or prior to) as enactment of the income tax.
I would support an income tax ONLY if they get rid of all other taxes.
…and can you smell california? because its coming our way…
Is it really a flat tax proposal? What is the “income” being taxed – that is, from what line on your 1040 is the state tax to be calculated? I lived in a state back east that had a similar tax, but they based it on your 1040 bottom line, after deductions, so it wasn’t a flat tax on income. Is the WA proposal a tax on gross income, no deductions? How about capital gains and the like?
@4 – you don’t want to do that. Income taxes are more volatile than sales taxes. A state that relied solely on income taxes would have more (a lot more in times like these) revenue ups and downs to deal with, making budgeting harder.
A mix of taxes seems the sanest approach.
Abolish sales taxes on everything except smokes, booze and gas. Set up a graduated income tax with your first 25K (or so)* exempt and anything you put in any form of retirement account or college savings account (I forget the name for those) (and have college savings accounts for everyone, not just kids). No other exemptions. No exemptions for just having a kid! If you can’t afford to have the kid, don’t have the kid!
*It makes no sense to tax people that don’t make a living wage.
Camels nose under the tent!
No thanks….even though I’m not currently earning $400,000/yr.
Job Killer.
California here we come!
Class warfare never pans out the way it looks on paper.
Why??
Because you cannot FORCE folks to keep their businesses in Washington, live in Washington.
I kind of hope the Dems keep pushing it…and find out the undesirable consequences the hard way.
PS–
What is the NET IMPACT on current tax revenue?
The difference between REVENUE GENERATED by the Income Tax and Revenue lost by lowering Income Tax??
I suspect this is a TAX INCREASE.
Government yanking $$ out of the struggling private job-creating, tax paying sector during a recession??! Brilliant!!
At my age, I’m leaning toward desiring to see it happen and the complete mess it will create.
Perhaps if you bring in the ACORN Fraud Squad from Wisconsin on the Income Tax vote??
http://www.foxnews.com/politic.....ter-fraud/
BUSTED!!
Will this help their former attorney and Kommunity disorganizer, the l’il messiah Barry Obam-Mao??
I mean Obam-Mao was at a whopping 22% Strong Approval this AM!!
#1 Ah, instead of arguing facts, you’re just making up stuff. Goes like this
2010 – Republicans oppose gay marriage
2011 – Republicans outlaw gay sex
2012 – Republicans call for execution of gays and outlaw Jews
2013 – Republicans pass bill to ship all blacks back to Africa, all gays exterminated, Jews put in protective ‘camps’.
Sure it’s not TRUE, but it’s what I IMAGINE might happen. That’s a good as being true in an anti-fact, anti-reality, anti-science political argument. I’ve learned one thing from Karl, Limbaugh, Palin and the rest, if you can’t win on facts, just make sh*t up. Death panels? True? No, but what IF they did exist! That’s as good as arguing over things that DO actually exist. LOL
Here’s how you argue over facts. If our state promises to drop the sales tax, then does raise it, you can point that out, and work to defeat those folks and vote in the people you like. Using, you know, reality.
Or perhaps bring in Rahm??
Look at what the retiring NY DEMOCRAT Congressman has to say about Rahm “The Dirty Bastard” Emmanual and what Rahm will do for a vote!! Pick a fight in the shower??
http://www.foxnews.com/politic.....alth-care/
The Democrats are IMPLODING!!
Puddy–
We told them so, didn’t we!!
@6…you may have an interesting point.
If only I could live in the magical made up world of Republicans where EVERYTHING is provided (ever bigger military, endless wars, social security, Medicare) and never ever have to pay for it. I’d LOVE to live like a little child like these folks. I’d love to never pay for anything and just get stuff for free. I wish I could live in that magical child like world. But us adults have to decide, if we WANT to police the world, use OUR money to ‘free Iraq’, expand our 700 military basis, “protect” Medicare from cuts, well, it might cost money.
Cynical,
Libtardos are impervious to the truth.
please.
go get the data. the rank listings of states by income per capita; and total state and local tax burden; and whether or not they have an income tax.
it’s just not true that having an income tax means you go out of control constantly raising taxes.
you idiots. right here in the usa when the rate got up to a marginal rate of 70%….it wuz brought down.
are you telling us the total state and local tax burden in oregon and idaho is higher than in washington? significantly?
what, they’re communist states?
you guys are just a bunch of bullies spewing the nonsense you spew. you’re bullies. that is all.
btw the correlation of higher income per capita and having a state income tax is pretty clear, you would conclude — if not a stupid bully — this means an income tax is a good idea and results in a growing economy, for everyone.
or are you going to try to tell us again that CT NJ MD NY CA are rapidly depopulating and all the rich people have moved to NH.
Riiiiight. the entire town of Greenwich CT has moved to Manchester NH.
Noted.
@13..is that like the magical word of democrats where they promise the the world(for free) to the poor and middle class, and tell them that the evil rich will pay for everything?
are those two worlds similar? me thinks so.
easy way to limit the % of taxes…make a constitutional amendment that limits taxes to XX% of income.
of course the free spending will be loathe to do that.
@17
spending = spenders
@1 If the apocalyptic projections of scaremongers like you ever came true, we’d all be paying 200% of our income in taxes. In fact, the tax burden as a percentage of income has been stable for decades.
@10 & 19
You’re both fucking retards. Oops, channeling Rahm there a bit.
Courtesy of wa.gov
Retail sales tax rates
1935 – Enacted at 2.0%
1941 – Increased to 3.0%
1955 – Increased to 3.33%
1959 – Increased to 4.0%
1965 – Increased to 4.2%
1967 – Increased to 4.5%
1976 – Increased to 4.6%
1979 – Decreased to 4.5%
1981 – Increased to 5.5%
1982 – Decreased to 5.4%
1983 – Increased to 6.5%
Saint Steve Forbes had a personal exemption in his Flat Tax (please wait for the choir of angels to finish) proposal.
Saint Dick Armey had a personal exemption in his Flat Tax (ditto) proposal.
And @3 del and @4 leb — who the fuck cares what you will “accept” or not? I mean, really? Your conceit is hilarious in its weakness. You personally each have exactly zero leverage and exactly zero power.
You really have nothing to say about it. You are two super-minor trolls from a distinctly minority party that looks a lot like it’s completely satisfied to stay that way. We’re making the rules, and unless you guys can figure a way to become popular, which I don’t see happening any time soon, just smile and enjoy it.
@4 “I would support an income tax ONLY if they get rid of all other taxes.”
That’s not realistic, unless you want a 20% state income tax rate. A modest state income tax in exchange for getting rid of the state sales tax (leaving local sales taxes in place) and the B & O tax is a reasonable tradeoff.
@8 “Job Killer.”
Bullshit. The millions that high-income households stash in foreign stocks and New York hedge funds don’t create a single Washington job.
5. Truth Teller
Yes, it is “really” a flat tax proposal, because no matter what “income” is being taxed, the same “income” is being taxed for everyone. Right? Simple.
But if you want to know the details, they actually make the text of currently proposed bills public. Get off your ass and look if you care. I am certainly not going to do your work for you.
Unanticipated Consequences…on the way BEFORE the increase is signed into law…courtesy of Idaho’s Governor!!!
“We now are reaching out to hundreds of Oregon businesses, and will do the same with those in Washington if the legislature there follows Oregon’s lead. We aren’t offering many bells and whistles, but what we can offer is a business-friendly State government, a highly qualified and motivated work force, and communities where people understand that while government cannot be the solution to their problems it can and must be a champion for their own solutions.”
Despite Leftist fuzzy visions to the contrary, we do NOT live in a vacuum here in Washington State. Other States are licking their chops.
Go ahead and believe there won’t be more jobs loss and revenues below what is anticipated.
You will be proven WRONG!
@25
We??? I thought you lived outside of Bozeman?
@20
That’s quite a bit under the rate of inflation.
Dept of Ecology—WAGES ONLY
2005–$76.3 MILLION
2007–$88 MILLION
2009–$96.3 MILLION
26.2% INCREASE in WAGES in 4 years!!
What recession???!
@22
Yup!
Cynical
Yes! Idaho is going to become a hub of commerce (especially once the RAILROAD to Moscow goes through), while West Coast port leader Washington will surely wither and die.
Why are you guys so stupid? You have to be trying.
22 RR
Yes, a “reasonable tradeoff” is clearly always what Republicans are after.
@31 Their idea of a “reasonable tradeoff” is they get the government contracts, subsidies, and services … and we get the taxes.
Blue States = net payers
Red States = net receivers
9 Mr. Cynical
Way to try to hijack the thread. But I, you know, read the article. And it said, among other things, and probably the most important, that the article was not about vote fraud or voter fraud, but instead about voter registration fraud. If you can show that any fraudulent voter registration led to a fraudulent vote, I imagine that the state of Wisconsin would be pretty interested, because they have procedures in place to make sure this doesn’t happen, and in fact they cuaght these signatures before any registration was accepted.
Only secondarily, only two of the five charged had anything to do with ACORN, there is no evidence nor any accusations that ACORN is in any way responsible for these attempted fraudlent registrations (of course, if you had read the article perhaps you would know this), and it seems just about like the paid signature gatherers for Tim Eyman’s various bullshit faking signatures for him. What was his acceptance rate again?
But, if you are ever smart enough or lucky enough to make $400K or more (and I for one am not holding my breath), then you can just STFU and take your puny, tiny tax.
I should have mentioned — still waiting for Republican outrage about invalid signatures on Tim Eyman’s initiative petitions. When’s it coming?
Hey, in teh US Congress, Rep. Ann Kirkpatrick (D-AZ) introduced a bill last week to cut pay for members of Congress by $8,700 a year — or five percent — and freeze their automatic cost-of-living increase.
I am sure that Republicans will be all over this bill–in favor.
Riiiiiiight.
End To Funeral Protests?
SCOTUS has accepted a case involving anti-gay protesters who picket military funerals, suggesting the court may overrule a lower court decision that said the protests are protected free speech.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35.....nd_courts/
hey daddy love, go suck gmans dick.
guess what, YOU dont have any more power than the next person you conceited little shithead – ya, I know your type – got your ass kicked when growing up, never got laid – and ended up marrying a fat chick because thats the best pussy you could get your hands on. then he gets a big head by being a pee-on for uncle gates…talk about a small fish in a big sea…
No income tax for Washington, never, never ever!
I don’t want to be screwing around with filing sate income tax returns: it’s bad enough I have to deal with the federal shit. If you ask me, we should be looking for ways to get rid of federal income taxes. The federal shit is a monster, out of control.
If you feel so strongly about income taxes for this state, just mail the Department of Revenue a check. That’ll make you feel good.
Oh wait! Here’s another idea: why not institute an income tax for King County? Show us the way, o glorious King County and Seattle Neo-socialists, and put a crushing state income tax on yourselves and lead by example!!
Yeah, right…
@36…those protesters should have their asses kicked with baseball bats wound with razor wire and spikes.
nobody has the right to protest the funeral of a fallen soldier.
d-damned pieces of shit.
@35…could you provide us with a list of all the democrats that support this bill too?
because I am sure all of them will support it…yeah right.
38 PI
And you think that there are any Stevens County residents who will be paying this tax? The red half of this state might as well be on food stamps.
40 M
Ok, let’s count the votes. One “fiscally respinsible” Republican vote? One? Not.
39 MR
Then again, there are those who believe in the rule of law and the rights of the accused against the power of the State.
For Republicans, it only matters whether you agree with them or not.
37
Aw, Max. Those who can argue the issue. Those who can’t call names like little angry children. Your side is clear.
Oh, and max…
Stand by while we ram this through and force the big, bad health care down your unwilling throat.
If you run out of gay things to be afraid of, I am sure that I can refresh your “protesting too much” memory.
@36,39
It would seem to me that you should have the right to protest at funerals, but what those fuck-heads are doing shouldn’t qualify as protest. That’s just straight up hate speech.
oh, come on. Is the purple-dyed finger REALLY an effective anti-vote-fraud mechanism? I can think of one or two ways to beat it right off the bat.
Let’s see:
– solvent
– makeup
3 del
Actually, you miss the point. The proposal reduces taxes on the vast bulk of taxpayers who vote, and raises them on a very, very few who vote.
No wonder Republicans hate it.
@22 You misquoted me, you slimy fuck.
Oh noes! This cannot be true! Please, Cynical, reassure me…and note, please, you who purposely misunderstand, that it doesn’t say that “religious people are racist.”
But it’s still funny. I think. Read the link.
@27
You apparently don’t understand what percentage means.
If an item costs $1 in 1935, then the sales tax was 2 cents.
In 2010, the same item now costs $10, and the sales tax is 95 cents.
51 d
Yes, and along with that amazing mathematical fact, the world has changed. We are now the richest country in the world, with governments at various levels that do a great deal more for us all than they did in 1930. In case you hadn’t noticed.
How much did median income rise since 1930?
Today is International Women’s Rights Day. Urge president Obama to call upon the U.S. Senate to conduct hearings and finalize ratification of UN Convention on the Elimination of all forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW).
BTW, depite my snark, Re: Rep. Kilpatrick’s pay-cut legislation “21 lawmakers from both parties have signed on as co-sponsors and the measure is being considered in two House committees.”
An encouraging sign? True bipartisanship!
@51
$1.00 in 1935 has the same buying power as 15.82 does today. .02¢ in 1935 has the same buying power as 32¢ does today.
And nowadays we have a higher % of our population in prison, we have adult day health for grandma and grandpa, we keep everyone in school at least through the end of high school. Nobodies using outhouses and the Sears catalog to wipe with anymore. We’ve got more roads to pave…
Sorry, the rest of us don’t want to go back to 1935.
@51
PS. that’s an inflation rate of 1481.7%
@51
I mean I not on here to trumpet how wonderful the Democrats are, they aren’t. But, all we’re getting from the other side is just pure nonsense.
I’d love to have lower taxes, but I don’t want to go back to 1935 and we’ve seen what getting rid of government regulation does…
I’m sure the Democrats are thrilled by Obam-Mao’s “whopper lie of the day”!!
Updated March 08, 2010
Obama Confuses Decades, Inflates Estimated Health Care Savings by $868B
FOXNews.com
Liar in Chief!!
Desperate bastard.
Throwing gasoline on the burning Democrat Party.
For those involved with the debate here or on the clone blog Goldy wrote just before it I apologize for too heated a speech on the taxation issue.
It isn’t helpful to call names when a person disagrees with another. It doesn’t advance the debate, or solve any problems.
Having said that my basic sense of fairness and ethics gets roused every time progressives detail what they consider a fair tax policy. That is, a tax policy wherein a few percent at the top are expected to bear the financial burden of government on the nebulous claim that they can well afford it.
Should we take voting rights away from these citizens while we’re taking their economic rights? Should we take their homes and turn them into halfway houses for recovering drug addicts?
Of course you’d say no to that (most of you) but somehow when we’re talking about taking their money without consideration their equal protection rights that’s just fine.
I truly don’t understand this position.
@60 I’m glad to see you’re on board for tax fairness. What do you think we should do about the fact that Washington’s poorest households pay 5 1/2 times as much of their income in state and local taxes as the richest households (17% vs. 3%)? Don’t you think that calls for redistributing some of the tax burden to make the state tax system fairer to those at the bottom?
Special Recognition
I want to personally thank Cynical, Puddy, and the other trolls for making their asses available for our kicking pleasure.
Free Tibet!
@60, Lost
There are many reasons, fairness, justice, basic principles of human psychology, christian kindness, the awareness we are all in this together and none of us gets out alive….
But a crazed radical loon such as myself would take pains to point out that structuring the social rules around the whims and prejudices of the very rich is both understandable and an all too common human sickness. The rich make the rules. They use the power of the state to feather their nests and enhance and maintain this power. And they can be fairly ruthless about it as out labor history shows.
They are the real elite, not some wild eyed college professors or a few hollywood actors. I mean it gets to the point where powerful interests get special tax legislation written at the Congressional level for ONE person!
So you have a system whereby winners of the birth lottery, and some few who climb up the economic ladder to joint them can tilt the rules in their favor to maintain and reinforce their wealth and power, and pass it on to their offspring. In actuality we have a socialist nanny state for these people and they run things pretty much for their benefit.
Yet somehow when it is pointed out that since they benefit by far far the most, that they should pay the freight, they bleat and whine that “it is not fair”, or posit knee slappers about their precious bodily fluids losing incentive, or something.
This you claim to not understand. Well, I can’t understand your position either. Why you align yourself with such self serving mendacity is beyond me.
Free market economic theory is clear. Higher productivity should get higher economic returns. Worker productivity increases in this country has averaged around 2% per year over the post WWII period. Yet lower and middle class income growth hit the breaks starting in the 70’s. National income has been steadily shifted to those with higher incomes (incomes that are generally protected from the economic storm ravaging the lower classes), and the distribution of income has gotten steadily more skewed, approaching 1929 levels.
This is not a recipe for a healthy polity.
Nobody is advocating taking “their” money. They essentially have engaged in high end socially sanctioned looting to obtain it. The fact that they have so much is a social construct, not some act of god, and social constructs both have and can be changed.
National Coffee Party Day — Saturday, March 13
“The Coffee Party is a political movement developed in counterpoint to the Tea Party movement. It is based on the underlying principle that the government is ‘not the enemy of the people, but the expression of our collective will, and that we must participate in the democratic process in order to address the challenges we face as Americans.’ Its stated goals include getting cooperation in government and removing corporate influence from politics. It was founded by Annabel Park, former Strategy Analyst at The New York Times and volunteer filmmaker for President Obama’s campaign in 2008.” — Wikipedia
All meetings begin at noon. Here are the Seattle-area locations:
Ballard — 4710 Ballard Avenue NW
Burien — Elliott Bay Brewhouse & Pub, 255 SW 152nd St.
Capitol Hill — 700 Broadway Ave E
Kent — 24130 Pacific Highway South
Lake Forest Park — Third Place Books (Commons Area), 17171 Bothell Way NE
Redmond — Soulfood Books, 15748 Redmond Way
U. District — room above Cafe Allegro, 4214 University Way Northeast
Vashon Island — The Vashon Island Coffee Roasterie, Cemetery Road and Vashon Hwy
http://tinyurl.com/y99ynny
milo @ 64
Man, did you just kick lost’s ass. Your post reminds me why I’m proud to be a leftist. Damn, I wish I’d written that myself.
‘Two Parties, Different Planets’
In a Sunday op-ed piece in the fishwrapper, Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman said,
“Today, Democrats and Republicans live in different universes, both intellectually and morally. Take the question of helping the unemployed in the middle of a deep slump.
“What Democrats believe is … that when the economy is deeply depressed, extending unemployment benefits not only helps those in need, it also reduces unemployment ….
“But that’s not how Republicans see it. … Sen. Jon Kyl, R-Ariz. [said] … unemployment relief ‘doesn’t create new jobs … continuing to pay people unemployment compensation is a disincentive for them to seek new work.’
“In Kyl’s view, then, what we really need to worry about right now — with more than five unemployed workers for every job opening, and long-term unemployment at its highest level since the Great Depression — is whether we’re reducing the incentive of the unemployed to find jobs.”
This demonstrates what asses — and assholes — Republicans really are. (Why would anyone vote for them?) But there’s much more in this op-ed, and you really should read the whole thing:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....man07.html
67
I would say, “stunning, fucking, stunning,” but that is today’s Republican Party. Worthless, absolutely worthless. One party deals with reality, the other operates in some sort of fantasyland that I don’t quite get.
Different Universes huh?!
Here is what Voters think today of your guy Obam-Mao’s Universe!
Tuesday, March 09, 2010
Note how Klynical refuses to address issues and has no new (or even old) ideas that he/she can defend.
Exactly like the republican party…a bunch of harpies who have no plan except to tear down governemnt, the President, health care reform, the economy and anything else that might actually help real people as opposed to fostering their beloved “entrepeneurial” spirit.
Get a clue morons…entrepeneurs require customers and an economy to work and you guys just broke the economy.
The lesson is we cannot trust republicans to manage the economy, manage government or manage foreign policy. They have failed at all of these. The Bush recession, the wasted money on the unnecessary war in Iraq and the incompetent Bush adminstration that lied and stalled any progress are all evidence that idiots like Klynical have already forgotten.
@49 “@22 You misquoted me, you slimy fuck.”
I didn’t quote you in #22. I quoted lebowski @4.
@71 Good grief, these trolls are stupid. Why can’t we get some intelligent trolls?
It is hard to imagine a WA income tax ever getting enacted since we are fundamentally selfish people.