I’m not necessarily opposed to some kind of pension reform this legislative session; truth is, I haven’t really studied the issue closely enough to have formed an educated opinion one way or the other. But I do have an opinion on the rhetoric used by the Seattle Times editorial board to close their argument in favor of reform, an opinion I can pretty much sum up in two words: fuck you.
State employee benefits come out of the pockets of the average citizen. That person does not have a plan with annual pension increases and has no chance of ever having such a thing. The average citizen will support Gregoire’s proposal.
The Times, who constantly calls for bipartisanship, and who rails against class warfare (in the form of raising taxes on the wealthy) once again promotes its economic race toward the bottom by attempting to turn working people against each other, rather than against the corporate and political elites who have had their boots on the throats of the middle class for most of the past few decades. It is the same argument the editors use in favor of slashing the wages and benefits of public employees—you don’t get it, so why should they?—a mean-spirited appeal to society’s lesser angels, and the antithesis of the guiding principles of the labor movement that led to astonishing gains in workplace conditions, personal income and standard of living for nearly all Americans throughout the first three quarters of the twentieth century.
To be clear, what the Times calls “pay increases for beneficiaries” is nothing more than cost of living increases of the kind enjoyed by Social Security recipients. And no doubt when the Times eventually argues for eliminating that too, they will make a similar argument to the younger workers paying into the system to support the current retirees: “You won’t collect this benefit,” the editors will argue, “so why should they?”
Until eventually, nobody has much of anything, but for the lucky few who remain at the top.
Next they’ll be railing against military pensions and demanding that soldiers pay for their own air travel to their combat zones.
So, it’s class warfare when we rail against the excesses of the rich at the expense of the middle class. Then they whine like a 4 yr old when we get the small increase in wages due us.
I say, if they want to call it warfare… give it to them.
@ 2
As I’ve said before, I’ll stop talking about class warfare as soon as people stop waging one.
It sounds as though there is $10+ billion of unfunded pension liability. If that is true, how should the state fix that?
nolaguy @4,
Because states can’t technically run a deficit, they routinely use pension funds as a kinda unofficial credit card. They underfund them when times are tough, and then pay back the difference when coffers are flush. And I’m not necessarily opposed to this; it’s a great way to smooth out budgets through economic cycles and provide a steady level of services. Furthermore, these shifts in pension funding levels are magnified by economic swings, due to the fluctuating value of their investment portfolios.
But ultimately, these are obligations taxpayers must fulfill. However generous a pension may be, it’s beneficiaries made a deal with the state decades ago, and they are not the cause of the underfunding.
The Seattle Times says it’s okay to break contracts when they become inconvenient? So much for the rule of law.
As Mr. Potter so eloquently said: poverty “encourages a thrifty working class.”
Rich people have robbed the working class blind since Reagan took office. They have done a nasty Texas two step on us, consolidating all the money in the hands of a few at the top. Now they want to pretend it wasn’t a two step process, and that we all have to sacrifice to right the sinking ship. Nowhere do they tell you that they haven’t sacrificed one single thing in the last thirty years. In fact they have gotten wealthy beyond imagination. Isn’t it convenient how the Times forgets this part?
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. We have always been at war with East Asia.
The Seattle Times is no better than the political rag that paraded as a newspaper in George Orwell’s 1984. They are nothing but a propaganda wing of rich people. They are banking on keeping people ignorant and poor.
And it’s not all rainbows for public employees on a pension. Do a search on the internet for GPO (Government Pension Offset) and WEP (Windfall Elimination Provision). These federal laws reduce social security payments for retirees who have public pensions. The percentages returned are different for federal and state employees and different from state to state. The bad thing is that you could move to another state and find your social security benefits cut even if you paid into it. You could even lose survivor benefits if your spouse dies but you have a government pension.
If this is really class warfare, than is is 99% of us against 1%. I say we scare the holy living shit out of the 1%. The French had a nice clean sharp solution during the French Revolution. Sometimes that is the only thing this grossly powerful and rich minority understands.
Wa State employees are fully vested in Social Security. While there still might be parts of the country where public employees with pensions are not part of Social Security, many of these disappeared in 1983 with Social Security reform. Heck, even US congress and senate are part of Social Security now.
It all comes back to the 2001 Times strike. WEA supported the Times workers. Ever since then it appears that the editors have not missed a single chance to whack the teachers or slant the news against public education.
What usually is not mentioned in this discussion:
The role of the investment board who got taken to the cleaners by the Banksters. Some smart journalist should follow the money trail there. You’ll find rookie state employees put in charge of investing hundreds of millions of dollars who, after being wined, dined and flattered by the Banksters, dump a large portion of that dough into Bankster vapor.
So the obvious solution to the Times is to give Banksters free range access to the Treasury and kick teachers and tell them to suck it up because the teachers are greedy.
@9 The “producers” got their tax cut. If we don’t see a half million new jobs produced in January, then I say, off with their damned heads.
Why can’t someone “take our country back” to the magical perfect way our founding fathers lived? Everything was GOOD then and the liberals just f**ked things up!
Shut up Mrs. Palin! Women can’t vote, not in 1785, and they CERTAINLY can’t be President. Now bake me a pie and get back to birthin babies woman! And slaves…don’t forget the slaves, nothing says “founding values” like owning a black man and forcing him to work for you for free! Not exactly the “free market”, for HIM anyway, LOL. And WHO can’t forget our “things used to be better in the good old days” example of uncontrolled child labor! Remember when you could make a 10 year old work in a mine for 2 cents a day! Now THOSE were the good old days!
Then the liberals had to come and F**K everything up and let women vote, free slaves, outlaw child labor, give us weekends off, give us paid holidays, give us sick leave. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE fought against tooth and nail by the conservatives of the day. Just remember that. The liberals have ALWAYS been right and the conservatives like Mrs. Palin (who now BENEFIT for the liberals centuries of actions) are ALWAYS wrong. ROTFLMAO
So Mrs. Palin…travel down the Federally paid for highways, campaign for a job you couldn’t GET until the liberals fought for it, and put your bitches out on the internet which only exists because of DARPA and university research…and complain complain complain.
Think of the world if the conservatives and the southern Confederacy won! Dirt roads connecting cities full of child labor and women confined to the kitchen. Sammy Davis Jr. still having to enter the hall through the kitchen entrance while Dean and Jerry go through the front door (ref for those 50+). Maybe the perfect world for conservatives, but most of us like THIS world more and don’t WANT the country to “GO BACK”. I think things are BETTER now than they were in 1881.
5. Goldy spews:
Goldy–
So who’s fault is the underfunding?
The last Budget, Gregoire & the Democrats underfunded it by $500 Million…essentially kicking the can to future generations.
You are assuming good times are right around the corner to fix this trainwreck. What if they aren’t? How much “underfunding” can you justify?
You say this is a good way to smooth things out. It’s also a good way to get into a hole so deep you cannot get out.
Your solution is higher taxes.
The voters have stated repeatedly either get a supermajority of the Legislators to agree or a vote of the people.
WHY?
Because they have shown no restraint….especially when being the puppets of the State Employee Union. Look at the political contributions Goldy. State money.
Get raises & increased benefits==give money to Democrats.
That has been the formula.
It’s unsustainable Goldy.
9. CC “Bud” Baxter spews:
Envy & jealousy are bad things.
You are mighty shallow minded if you think you can fleece the wealthy. They have lots of options.
Look at history.
When has class warfare benefited a Society in the long-run?
I’m not rich.
I don’t make $1 million+/yr.
But I understand the consequences of this kind of shallow class warfare.
We need to grow the economy.
That is done with lower taxes and less regulations. Why do you think businesses have moved overseas? Yeah, cheap labor is one thing.
But as soon as Japan decreases it’s corporate tax rates next year, the USA will have the highest Corporate Tax Rates in the World…and the highest, most costly regulatory network.
Read what Intel’s Chairman said several years ago-
Barrett: First of all, things like corporate income taxes are effectively diminutive as part of the U.S. budget. Second, if you do the math, creating high-paid jobs is the benefit that you give a country wherever you create those jobs. High-paid jobs carry with them something called personal income tax. Personal income tax is the primary form of supporting the nation.
Anytime you go to look at where Intel puts a major facility — in Oregon, Arizona, New Mexico — wherever we go, we build these multibillion-dollar facilities. What do we always negotiate when we go there? We negotiate the lowering of property tax. Why? Property taxes are supposed to pay for the families of the people who work in those buildings.
I have a $3 billion facility on one side of the street, and I employ 2,000 people. The guy across the street has a credit card center that cost $20 million and employs 200 or 300 people. I pay my employees three times as much as they pay their employees. Is it a net benefit to the community if I don’t pay property tax there? Any study will show you, yes, it’s a net benefit to the community.
Intel has said repeatedly they save nearly $1 BILLION per plant location by building it outside the US…even more vs. California.
Why shouldn’t they build overseas if there is an anti-corporate attitude & environment in this Country? You folks sure spew the lines that would chase off investors. You act like it’s an honor for a huge business to locate here when the rest of the world is actively competing.
Sounds pretty arrogant…and the Left has destroyed lots of opportunities in Washington State.
Do you think a 12% increase in Workers Comp Premiums this year after a 7.8% increase last year is helpful?
How about UI increasing 41% in back to back years.
Some friends of mine have seen their businesses increase by 300%+!!
Go ahead and throw out a Forbes article.
It was not comprehensive in looking at all the hidden taxes and what has happened in 2009 and 2010.
@19 “You folks sure spew the lines that would chase off investors.”
Forty years ago, the division of GDP was something like labor 60%, capital 40%. That was a hell of a lot of money going to the Owning Class. But today those numbers have flipped, and are closer to labor 40%, capital 60%. Can the capitalist class possibly get any greedier? Yes, they won’t be satisfied until they get it ALL. Work is already so poorly compensated and disrespected in this country that you’re a sucker to work. The work ethic is dead in America, if it ever was alive — it’s always been mostly propaganda of the rich class designed to get the poor to submit without a struggle.
The pension COLAs Gregoire is talking about, unlike the pensions themselves, are a legislative gift. They were enacted in 1995, long after PERS 1 and TERS 1 were closed to new enrollees in 1977. Those COLAs are not part of my employment contract — the deferred compensation the state promised to me, on which I relied, when I accepted state employment in 1975 — and therefore taking them away is not a breach of contract. Given the state’s fiscal straits, I’m willing to give up the COLA, but I want something in return. The newspaper tax abatement the Seattle Times got last year also was a legislative gift, and it too, is largesse the state no longer can afford. If I give up the pension COLA, the Seattle Times should give up that tax break. How about it, Frank Blethen?
@10 State employees get Social Security, but they paid for it, with the same payroll deductions everyone else has. State employees also paid for their pensions — in the case of PERS 1 and TERS 1 retirees, with an additional 6% payroll tax. That means that P/TERS 1 state employees and teachers had 13.65% of their gross pay deducted for pension and social security throughout their working lives — about double what private sector workers paid into social security. That money wasn’t available to pay mortgages, car payments (for cars that often were need in the line of work, not just commuting), send their kids to college, etc. I was a state employee for almost 30 years and believe me it was always a hand-to-mouth existence on a salary that was about one-fourth or one-third of what my private sector counterparts got, and I saw only about 60% of what little there was after the extra deductions were taken out. No private sector worker has that much taken out of their pay. These pensions aren’t a gift from the taxpayers. They were paid for by the workers themselves. If the pension system has financial problems today, it’s because the politicians in the legislature didn’t hold up their end, by failing to make the employer contributions and instead spending the money on constituent-pleasing programs to aid their own re-election. Today’s legislators are responsible for rectifying the sins of their predecessors; they must be held to making up those contributions by whatever means necessary. If that means cutting programs, so be it. Personally, I’m for taking it out of their legislative pay and per diem until the pension system is made whole.
That is done with lower taxes and less regulations.
How did that work for the mortgage industry and the financial industry?
Imagine America with the taxes and regulations of say, Viet Nam or Somalia. Hope you have high high walls.
@14 I think it’s time for Joe Republican again.
Day in the Life of Joe Middle-Class Republican
A TvNewsLIES Reader contribution.
By John Gray Cincinnati, Ohio
Joe gets up at 6:00am to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and work as advertised.
All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employer’s medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance, now Joe gets it too. He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs this day. Joe’s bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.
Joe takes his morning shower reaching for his shampoo; His bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for his government subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.
Joe begins his work day; he has a good job with excellent pay, medicals benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe’s employer pays these standards because Joe’s employer doesn’t want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed he’ll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some liberal didn’t think he should loose his home because of his temporary misfortune.
Its noon time, Joe needs to make a Bank Deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe’s deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some liberal wanted to protect Joe’s money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the depression.
Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae underwritten Mortgage and his below market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his life-time.
Joe is home from work, he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to dads; his car is among the safest in the world because some liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration because bankers didn’t want to make rural loans. The house didn’t have electric until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn’t belong and demanded rural electrification. (Those rural Republican’s would still be sitting in the dark)
He is happy to see his dad who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn’t have to. After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home.
He turns on a radio talk show, the host’s keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. (He doesn’t tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day) Joe agrees, “We don’t need those big government liberals ruining our lives; after all, I’m a self made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have”.
@17 Poor, poor, little rich people. The poor and middle class are waging “class warfare” against them. Go back to fucking your goats. It’s the only thing you do right.
Followup on #21: Of course pensioners should get COLAs, under a system tied to inflation, because they don’t have much to begin with, most of their incomes go for basic needs, and they’re not responsible for debasing the currency. But neither is the state. A dollar today should be worth exactly what it was worth when they retired. The reason it isn’t is because of deliberate policies of the federal government. (Inflation, believe it or not, is not an act of God or nature, but a purely man-made phenomenon and always intentional.) The federal government, not the state, should be responsible for compensating pensioners for the lost purchasing power of their pensions. And these COLAs should not be a gift of Congress, but a legally binding obligation of the U.S. Treasury, beyond the politicians’ reach. How do you assure that? By tying them to congressional pay. If pensioners don’t get their COLAs, then neither do members of Congress. Simple as that.
Mr Cynical @ 19
Bzzt. Wrong. Again.
Every new silicon fab unit is an instant super fund site.
Profits are easy when you don’t have to clean up your own mess. Intel’s “savings” are just a form of theft, sticking someone else with the bill.
@19
So government has to provide corporate welfare for corporations to survive? It just goes to show how fucked up capitalism is today. I doubt Mr. Cynical can name one corporation that has not received or forced the taxpayers to finance their profits.
@19 “Do you think a 12% increase in Workers Comp Premiums this year after a 7.8% increase last year is helpful?”
Workers comp has nothing to do with state pensions. Different program, different taxes. And workers comp is not a legislative gift to workers. The enactment of workers comp laws 100 years ago was a historic bargain between employers and workers. Workers gave up their right to sue employers for negligence and employers agreed to a government-run system, funded by employer and worker tax contributions, to provide lost wages and medical care for workplace injuries on a no-fault basis. This compromise benefitted employers at least as much as it helped workers, which is why it has endured for a century.
“How about UI increasing 41% in back to back years.”
Well duh, we have the worst recession since the Great Depression, and the highest unemployment since the Reagan Depression, what do you expect?
@28 G.W. Bush filled his cabinet with ex-CEOs, but none of them had any experience running corporations that had to make it on their own. All of them had run companies that live on the government dole, and getting money from the government was their particular expertise.
Mr. Cynical – The states are in this fix because for the last several years the stupids have stupidly believed the conservatives who told them that government was over-funded and that we needed tax cut after tax cut after tax cut. As states found their resources shrinking relative to inflation, population growth and economic pressures, they resorted to stupid tricks like raiding pension funds.
If government hadn’t been underfunded in the first place, then government wouldn’t have had to raid the pension cookie jar in the first place just to keep the lights on.
@24. Exactly.
It’s worth repeating what Warren Buffet likes to say — “there’s a class war going on, and my class is winning.” He’s my kind of billionaire — one who thinks he should be paying higher taxes.
The Seattle Times strategy is designed exactly to pit people fighting for the crumbs against people fighting for the crumbs. They have run editorial after editorial to deliberately enrage the public about public employees.
It is class warfare. What the public doesn’t understand, but they will in a few years, is that fat rich cats do not give a fuck about a single one of them. People are cannon fodder. That’s all. They aren’t investments, they are costs. The whole point of the economic collapse is designed to make people compliant employees so they can all be treated like shit.
These shills for the rich are part of the game. Pump up the outrage so that no worker will feel like they have a right to anything in terms of safe work environment, reasonable hours for fair pay. The whole idea is to drive down wages and destroy the middle class. The class warfare is on. And it is purposefully being waged by the Seattle Times and their ilk.
@4, nolaguy: Over what time period will we have this $10 billion liability? Ten years? Twenty?
Our state has an annual output of goods and services (GNP) of $338 billion. Over ten year that will be around 4 trillion dollars. Divide 10 billion by 4 trillion and tell me what that is in percentage terms.
Then you will know the extent to which this “crisis” is simply bullshit.
KKKynical KKKlown: “Do you think a 12% increase in Workers Comp Premiums this year after a 7.8% increase last year is helpful?”
No. But those premiums are driven by the cost of health care, not political pressure to grab more of the money that, by the way, was created by the government.
God almighty, you are one stupid fucker.
State employee benefits come out of the pockets of the average citizen. That person does not have a plan with annual pension increases and has no chance of ever having such a thing.
So what is the Times doing to help? Are they increasing the wages of their employees? Setting up a real pension rather than a 401k to loot?
Sounds more like they’re running around screaming, “OMG! The state isn’t cutting their employee’s throats! They’re honoring their contracts! THAT’S NOT FAIR!!!!”
Of course, what do I know? I’m just a working class “Joe,” If I had the common sense to be born wealthy, I’d probably know what my betters onthe editorial board know.
There is a class war in the U.S. Democrats and liberals didn’t start it. See Reagan, Bush, et. al.
There is a culture war in the U.S. Democrats and liberals didn’t start it. See Dobson, Limbaugh, O’Reilly, etc.
There are two U.S.-involved wars in the world. Democrats and liberals didn’t start either. See Iraq, Afghanistan.
I think it’s time for Republicans and conservatives to stop whining about liberals fomenting wars of any kind.
@38 “I think it’s time for Republicans and conservatives to stop whining about liberals fomenting wars of any kind.”
What would they talk about if they couldn’t blame their wars on us?
@37 Well gee, if average citizens want state employees to perform work, they have to pay them, you know? Benefits are simply part of employee compensation. Why does the Seattle Times think people should work for free just because their work benefits the public?
Most state jobs require college degrees, and many require advanced degrees, plus prior work experience. But to hear some people talk, they seem to think a state bridge engineer or a state institutions physician should be paid like a retail clerk: Minimum wage, no benefits.
No employer makes a gift of anything to its employees. Employers only pay what they have to, to fill positions. The real agenda of anti-government propagandists like the Seattle Times is to destroy government by making the jobs so unattractive no one will work for government.
@36 If Cynical really wants to bring down worker’s comp premiums, then he should support eliminating the retro program that allows BIAW to skim millions from the worker’s comp system.
@33
then why doesnt he??
nobody is stopping him from writing a check to the US Treasury…of course you will never see him write that check.
Buffet is a phony, who uses every tax break he can get his hands on.