For a variety of reasons, I am thinking of moving HA to Scoop, the software that powers Daily Kos. I understand it is a bitch to install, and I’ve never worked with Perl, so if any of my loyal users have any experience running a Scoop system, and would like to offer some help or advice, please let me know.
Oh… and if you all want to chime in about whether you think this is a good or bad idea, have at it in the comment thread.
Pfft.
I only care if it means you’ll finally belly up to the bar and spring for a preview button like the one at Sound Politis where I regularly check my work.
What are your “variety of reasons”?
Dumbass, can’t check his work before he submits it.
Why?
Because he is a DumbAss.
#1
Check your work? So this is what you do for work?
Dumbass, can’t check his work before he submits it. Why? Because he is a DumbAss. -Comment by Donnageddon— 9/17/05 @ 1:29 pm
#1 Check your work? So this is what you do for work? -Comment by sybil— 9/17/05 @ 1:29 pm
WOW! Is this what passes for clever amongst the fringies?
You guys are in worse trouble than we hoped! Keep it up.
Daniel @2,
Well, there are many reasons, but they generally fall into two categories: community building and the cleaning up the comment threads.
On the first, my own experience on DKos has driven home the value of having a larger stage where individuals can post their own diaries, and perhaps make a much larger impact than they would on their own. My sense is that there is probably a bit of pent up demand, and perhaps a Scoop-based HA could help uncover and develop some new talent.
On the latter… I’m really getting sick of my own comment threads, but don’t have the time to moderate them or the inclination to start banning people. However, Scoop allows for the community to police itself, taking the burden (and responsibility) off my shoulders should certain individuals end being troll rated.
I’ve tolerated the trolls up til now for a number of reasons, not the least of which that the unfettered back and forth could be fun, if not always informative. But I have a sense that things have really degraded and I’ve lost a lot good commentators who just can’t bother to wade through the garbage. There is no question that the trolls pad out my comment threads, but my audience has grown to a size where I really don’t need them anymore.
That said, there are only a handful of regulars who truly fall into the unrepentant troll category.
Thanks Goldy-
I think you might be on the way to the next stage of developing a kos-like Northwest community. There’s a lot of good folks here with great ideas.
Well Goldy, I understand your reasons, and I’m sure you won’t miss me, but I won’t be following you to Kos, for a variety of reasons.
I think the value of this blog, fringies included, is the LOCAL perspective by LOCAL folks, however wrong or disagreeable I may find them. It is beneficial to us to hear, good, bad or otherwise, what you and our fellow citizens think. Their (and your)perspective helps clarify our own positions; it helps us know what’s going on in our own back yard, where I think you, and we, have a better chance of influencing change. Even when I disagree, I learn… about differing ideologies, about the vast visions and hopes for our region, about my neighbors.
You will get lots of attention at Kos, no doubt far more readers than here, but the question to ask yourself is what good is another small voice in a big crowd vs a big voice in a small one?
Good luck in whatever you decide. I find you wrong 99.9999% of the time, but great fun 90% of that!
HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS – I don’t believe Goldy is saying he’s packing in his site and moving to Kos. He’s saying he’d like to establish a site similar to Daily Kos.
Goldy, I’m somewhat familiar with Perl – the Topic Hotlist is entirely Perl driven, so I guess I can do enough with Perl to create something useful (others may disagree). If you can’t find other assistance I can try to assist. I believe Brian at WashBlog has also been interested in Scoop, and also asked me about it, but we’ve not hooked up further on it since.
Goldy wrote:
“I’ve tolerated the trolls up til now for a number of reasons, not the least of which that the unfettered back and forth could be fun, if not always informative. But I have a sense that things have really degraded and I’ve lost a lot good commentators who just can’t bother to wade through the garbage. There is no question that the trolls pad out my comment threads, but my audience has grown to a size where I really don’t need them anymore.”
I thank you immensely for beginning to recognize the depth of the problem. The depth to which the most egregious ones have sunk, in apparent desperation to demonstrate they can inflict some manner of insult on those they despise, has negatively impacted this otherwise fine forum for discourse. While they will whine about only wanting to share something informative, they are here to intentionally damage this site, hoping against all hope, that their constantly berating will make more and more of us pull back from the scene. They are not here to be productive or to express informed opinions; they are here to harrass and harangue, to malign and insult, to denigrate and destroy your efforts.
Again thank you for your decision.
Diaries would be great! I think Dailykos is good because Markos is an excellent writer, but also because content can be driven by lots of other folks with interests. The depth of the discussion would change from a kiddie with a fewe turds to fullsizer with no turds! Yeah for no turds!
Oh Christ Goldy,
The “Trolls” banter with the nuts on your board is the only thing that make your site worth visiting. Without them you have a bunch of left wing nuts agreeing with each other.
Notice how only the trolls are bothered by the potential change? Sorry, prr, but nobody will be upset to see a few losers given the boot except for the trolls themselves. You’ll just have to find another blog to ruin or – god forbid – behave like an intelligent adult so you won’t need to worry about being banned.
Goldy: If you have a blog sans the righty provocateurs but with thoughtful lefty comentary and thoughtful righty dissident voices, I will definitely be a reader. But not so much a contributor. My true passion in blogging is giving righties ulcers and pancake underwear.
Goldy,
It was a nice idea to host a site where nobody is banned or censored, but clearly a small number of individuals have abused your generosity in doing so. Switching to Scoop would really make this a better place for discourse. However, I think most of your old model should still apply. There is no need to restrict language usage or get rid of all conservatives, only the ones who refuse to stay on topic, spam the place incessantly or are only interested in throwing around insults at those they disagree with. People who have no self-control will always abuse a system without limits.
Not sure if I fall in the “troll” category to be banned. I came to HA because I want to understand the liberal perspective so I can understand what my side is up against. I really honestly truly didn’t know people like those on this board actually existed. I’d hear Daschle or Jesse Jackson or Ted Kennedy clips on Limbaugh’s show and figured they were just “firing for effect”. But I’ve learned on HA that people like this really do exist, and they can say stuff like “tax cuts for the rich” and really mean it. Seriously… I thought a lot of that was made up bullshit by the party’s “leaders”. But I guess not.
But the quality of discussion is crap for much of the time. Lucy and Donna are only capable of spewing vomit like “fascist neo-con” which does little to advance a productive discussion. Anything you can do to raise the level would be good. I have to admit that sometimes I have descended to levels that I shouldn’t have gone to, partially just to bait some of the kooks who swim here to see if they’d use their “dinasaur brain” to respond. They usually do.
Other commenters here have expressed concern about keeping the content here local. I think that’s important. Being a little fish in a big pond is less interesting than being a prominent fish in a local pond. For example, I don’t GAF what people in Iowa think of Ron Sims or Sound Transit, and they aren’t going to be informed enough to GAS or be able to comment effectively.
Not sure about the technical issues of Scoop and Perl. I have a blog using Google’s system that works good for me.
I really honestly truly didn’t know people like those on this board actually existed.
For some reason I have difficulty believing anyone could be so completely closed off from reality, but I suppose it’s actually possible. That would certainly explain a lot.
Just keep drinking liberally…
LiberalDave – Let’s go over to the open thread and continue so we can keep this one clean.
There is no need to restrict language usage or get rid of all conservatives, only the ones who refuse to stay on topic, spam the place incessantly or are only interested in throwing around insults at those they disagree with. People who have no self-control will always abuse a system without limits. -Comment by LiberalDave— 9/17/05 @ 3:44 pm
Ditto the libs and fringies…wouldn’t you agree Dave?
wouldn’t you agree Dave?
No, I would not because your definition is tainted by lack of introspection. Fringies, indeed.
No thanks, MTR.
Dave – You’re an asshole. See 21 and 22.
That’s what I’m talking about.
Just to be clear, I’m looking to switch HA from WordPress over to Scoop, so as to expand HA as forum for local politics and news. I’m not looking to move to Daily Kos… just use their software.
And again… there are only a handful of regulars here who I wouldn’t mind being troll rated. There are plenty on the right who argue hard and passionately — and sometimes offensively — but who actually contribute to the debate. I don’t mind those people sticking around. But there are a handful who spew nothing but hate and/or RNC talking points and who clearly work as hard as they can to throw threads off topic and diminish the value of HA as a useful forum. Scoop would take care of them.
Liberaldave @ 13,
“Sorry, prr, but nobody will be upset to see a few losers given the boot except for the trolls themselves.”
You sound like q 13 year old girl attempting to form a clique.
If Goldy wants to sensor peoples opionions, Fuck ’em.
It only proves how progressive liberals truly are….
Goldy @ 24 – do you think there are “trolls” on BOTH sides of the discussion?
The scoop that I’m familiar with has nothing to do with computers. Sorry
Goldy; your lens as a good liberal should be which software is most diverse friendly, best use of non exotic wood, union labor, gestalt friendy, yin and yang shung fei approved. No clue what that is, cuz i’d buy based on price/performance. But you need to be pc in all you do…
Goldy – I think you need to clarify the mission of HA. Is it to promote the liberal agenda, or is it to provide a forum for left and right to debate the issues. If it’s a mutual admiration society, then get rid of me and the other “wingnuts”. Have at it.
I find it fascinating that the genesis of HA is to lampoon the idea of giving The People a right to have an overriding voice in how government is run through the initiative process. If that’s still the agenda, I welcome your ban on me.
Mark is right on target– we don’t want to become a mutual admiration society of users. And so is Goldy– the completely open door policy has gotten completely out of hand and one has to read a dozen senseless comments to find folks on either the left or the right who want to comment intelligently. Yes, I want to keep those who are not of my liberal political bent, but there are some trolls here that need to go. They offer no constructive dialog–just insults and degrading language with no substance and it ruins the Blog for me. I want to keep folks like Mark the Redneck, but there are a few of the “wing nuts” who may not have “wings” but are “nuts” and need to go find somewhere else to insult. Amd I look forward to the opportunity to have a KOS like experience with a focus on NW issues. Goldy, I think it is a good move or some one is soon going to start a NW Kos site like there are in some other states. Danny
Goldy — You realize there are a bunch of right-wing nutjobs in Washington who are quaking in their boots right now. They live for this blog. I read a number of liberal blogs, and they all have their trolls, but I have never seen anything even close to the trolls on this blog. I really don’t think these people hold down jobs or have any life outside of HA. I am not sure what these folks are going to do with the rest of their lives!
I think this is a great decision, Goldy. I find it hard to read your comments because of these folks. Although I do read some of the right-wing blogs, I certainly don’t go trolling their comments. Why would I?
Bottom line: The libs love to whine, complain, and dish it out, but can’t take it when they are the “understood jokes”. So, “filter and ban” the meanie taxpayers, because they are greed, evil, and mean spirited.
re 29: If you can’t understand that Tim Eyeman is getting money from rich people with an axe to grind and abusing the initiatve process, then we shall never see eye to eye on anything because you are an ideologue and we are not. I visited the JBS website the other day and , wonder of wonders, they LOATHE GWB and the neo-cons for pretty much the same reasons I do. Wrap your mind around that if you can.
Tim Eyeman and the initiatives he passes is one of the few things right about this state. I thank god for Tim… I just wish there were more of them.
Rufus: It’s my understanding that Tim Eyeman hasn’t passed ANY initiatives.
Well in a sense he does. All Tim has to do is write them. The rest is a slam dunk almost. They always pass and people line up to donate money and time. It doesnt seem like he has to do much work at all. Am I missing something Lucy?
The voting on his initiatives is just a formality.
Wow! What a scam. I guess even after using the money people give him for his own personal use ( like buying a Lexus SUV ), there are still plenty of stupid people who keep sending him money. Are you one of them, RUFUS?
Na- I just vote for his initiatives. I save my money for the future and maybe an occasional luxury SUV.
Goldy, w respect to MTR @ 29; genesis of this blog is to block peoples initiatives…
I can’t recall all my US History, but weren’t progressives the force behind the wave of state’s allowing referenda and initiatives back in the 1920’s or so?
So maybe you need a new name (liberal, lefty)?
Goldy @ 24
As MTR pointed out @26
– do you think there are “trolls” on BOTH sides of the discussion?
I don’t know if I ‘can’ substantively contribute to a debate, primarily because of some on your left (and some on my right) who consistently abuse the process. I have had some great discussions with good people of both persuasions on your forum. Unfortunately, I have had other “discussions” which went nowhere quickly…
If you can do something to mitigate the trainwreck that is your comment thread, I would be appreciative.
marks: The pure voice of sweet reason and spirited, though peaceful, discourse.
Goldy: Give people like Mr. Cynical the option of being banned or sending in a picture of themselves wearing a tin-foil hat. The picture would accompany any comment they made.
What are your variety of reasons, Goldy?
I like the idea, although I don’t like Perl.
Goldy
Lucy’s comment 41 above illustrates how perception of who should be banned will warp once you get started on that path. Mr C has a great wit and wit adds interest to the topical discussion IMHO. But you will find that almost all of your hard core lefties will want to ban him because he makes them so angry. Others (more prevalent on the lefty side ala Lucy and Roger) just seem to get off on throwing turd grenades.
Knock yourself out, you’re the one doing the heavy lifting here. But if the troll banning turns into a Lord of the Flies event your blog will lose a lot of it’s unique character.
Redneck, I don’t have a vote. But I will say this: you infuriate me, but I don’t consider you a troll. You are just mistaken in your priorities, usually. However, you don’t usually have a lot of all-caps bullshit for us.
Why do conservatives keep linking me with Maxine Waters? There’s nothing wrong with Maxine Waters. By the way, the conservatives over at the JBS website compare Rush Limbaugh to a Nazi propagandist and consider neo-cons to be fascists. You guys ought to check out what real American conservative thought is all about instead of the obfuscations of Grover Norquist and his ilk.
And speaking of being armed, I’m sure the JBS membership is armed to the teeth and know a friend from an enemy. I’m strongly considering joining although I don’t agree with all their positions. But with real American conservatives who understand what the constitution is all about, I don’t think that’ll be a problem . Damn the Republican Party and everything they stand for!
Goldy-
This site has been useful in many ways. I never used the word donk before but now use it on a regular basis. Looking at some of your past threads it is catching on. We are change the culture here. Thanks for the forum.
Rufus: I’m glad that you could learn another reductive and demeaning word like, DONK, to enrich your intellectual life. I’m sure it will come in handy in many a “debate” that you hold forth with in the future. Again, RUFUS, thanks for the many insights you’ve given us all here on the HA comment threads.
Dave – You’re an asshole. See 21 and 22.
That’s what I’m talking about.
Fuck you, Redneck. I really didn’t believe for a second that you were unaware liberals existed until you came here. That’s what you were talking about, but in fact you’re here specifically because of us. Someone who employs a tactic of feigning ignorance in order to marginalize the beliefs of half the nation is not even worth listening to.
How about Drupal? I’m working with it for a contract at the moment, its a snap to install and work with, and has support for everything you currently have on the site (including the commentary specific features you described in very broad terms.)
Goldy,
I speak fluent Perl. Once your server is set up with
mod_perl (I assume your current one has mod_php), the
process is pretty simple. Perl intimidates some people
because there is this massive ocean of add-on libraries
that PHP doesn’t have.
You know where to find me. I’ll follow up with email
as well.
To all conservatives who hate black people buying clothing and such with their 2000 dollars I say, Fuck You. What would you do if you had to abandon your life with only the clothes on your back and suddenly got 2000 dollars dropped on you? What if you’d been poor all your life and were not such a great money manager? Is it not perfectly reasonable to assume that a person in such conditions might splurge a little if for no other reason than to make themselves feel a little better?
Your lack of empathy is so egregious, hard-hearted and flat out mean that in a disaster ( if I knew who you were) I’d whack you fast before you could create more damage and heartbreak.
Foldy: Ever heard of SourceForge.Net? There are some great Perl examples there and they have a great Perl Community. That being said good luck in your learning process. There are a couple of good Perl programming books by Que.
Being one of the “trolls” you probably want to diss from this site, I can’t understand how you guys on the left feel and want a site that makes you all happy, glad handing each of you on the back when you all basically say the same thing. If that’s the type of blog the Northwest needs to feel good, more power to you.
You see I love researching the Internet and continually prove your side wrong using your heroes. If that bothers you then so be it. Also you claim it’s self-policing. Well, well well. Where was the previous self-policing on Lucite’s commentary? Are you now saying that Lucite’s commentary would cause an immediate banning of Lucite by your side? I seriously doubt. Why? In the Bible it says when you turn a blind eye to sin you are condoning it. You all turned a blind eye to Lucite’s commentary and didn’t say anything about it. Hence my comments about you guys being leftist racist enablers. And then you start projecting upon us an equality of us to Cindy Sheehan? Get off of it. You all forget how many parents who lost children who despise her, because it doesn’t help you Iraq cause.
It took how many days to have a “few lefties denounce Lucite? You see that’s why lefties are shallow and transparent. I guess the Scoop will allow you to stay that way. You smile in a person’s face and you make nice talk but what policies do you offer but tax and spend? How many of you would openly accept even a po white family here? Then it’s the same old, same old. Nothing new under the sun as it says in Ecclesiastes. If moving to the Scoop makes you feel happy about keeping us away fine.
I think you’re right that the flame throwers are ruining your comments section — and it isn’t just the right wingers.
That’s why I hope you don’t see the Kos rating system as a panacea. It would only be as good as the “culture” of your regular commenters. I would hope that they didn’t grade comments too heavily on ideology, but focused instead on thoughtfulness, relevance, originality and civility. Alas, the current HA culture seems so steeped in a “demolition derby” model of discourse that I would expect you’d see pitched ratings wars once you switched systems.
It’s interesting to read comments from chronic flamers. Why can’t they just come out and admit it — the issue isn’t censorship. I’d positively rate conservative commenters if they made meaningful contributions. But, you know what? Those who have nothing else to share besides mindless vitriol will get no sympathy from me.
re 53: I notice that Mr. Cynical is posting on both uSP and here. Any theories on why that might be?
Lucite: Maybe he likes to visit both sides of the issue? But in your small intellectual world you can’t see that!!!
re 54: Goldy is the one who called for GWB’s impeachment. Why are you suddenly so “Miss Manners”? The issue is derailing threads with irrelevant nonsense, not appeasing someone’s sense of decorum. A person who derides black people for buying clothing with their 2000 dollars in relief money and has no feeling for their plight and says so ( in threads that have nothing to do with that topic) . That is the issue.
But your main concern seems to be with some twisted sense of “fairness” to undemocratic people who derail the focus of this forum with their twisted nonsense. And you play right into their hands. They make all these horrid accusations against Headless Lucy and put forth the ridiculous notion that only a black person can say the N word. I’ve never said what color I am.
re 56: uSP bans people. Get it ? Dope!
Headless Lucy: You are compared to Maxine because you are both louded mouthed, uneducated, “entitled” racists who are nothing but parasites on taxpayers. The “N” joke is never said but certainly understood.
Loonatic lucy@55–
You post at both sites too.
And your point is???????????
I enjoy both of these sites. One gets a broad perspective of State and Local issues you cannot get elsewhere.
Frankly, I would like to see both HA and SP focus on strictly State and Local….there are an overabundance of Blogs that deal with National, World and Universal issues.
I appreciate Goldy and Stefan…the amount of time and effort they put into this is astounding.
Goldy—@6 and @24–
You are repeatedly indicating there are a handful of regulars you wouldn’t mind being “troll-rated”.
Why don’t you simply name the names and ASK me & others to please refrain from posting. I would be happy to oblige. Just ask. I’m sure others would voluntarily refrain as well if you just ASK.
Seems pretty simple to me.
Oh and Goldy–
You have repeatedly said the I-912 vote would be within 6 points or less. I offered you a $20 wager…I think it will be more. Have you accepted my wager yet??? Maybe I missed where you put your money where your mouth is….
So is it a bet??
It’s only a measley $20 Goldy!
Goldy,
I’m with Cynical on his Request @ 60.
Personally, I see a lot of people tap dancing around your decision on this issue. I am not one of them,
If you are looking at troll status, you may want to go back and revisit alot of your own posts. When you start of with an inflamatory topic, don’t cry foul when people respond in kind.
As for profanity or antagonistic posts? Who are you kidding, you are the worste offender.
If you are bothered by the responses on this site and want to change things, then lead by example.
Cynical: I am banned at uSP but they can’t keep me off because I have access to many computer networks. I have , however, had my livlihood threatened by those at uSP because they are frustrated in their attempts to ban me.
And that’s totalitarian.
So, now, I’m working to get you banned here because you are a totalitarian bastard who wants to have everything his own way and , if I have anything to say about it, you won’t.
Cynical, I said I would take Goldy on for the bet. I suppose he is afraid of being on the a Messianic Jewish web site for future contribution requests or receiving votive candles and having to ‘splain to his daughter why they are lavender.
Lucite, oh yes, you will never get it. Their are words of hatred emotion, then there are actions of stupidity. Since you perform both you can’t separate the two in your mind. If you were sincere and honest in your people assessment, you would clean up your written speech.
Here is an example: There is something about buying clothing with the cards for your needs. But Louis Vuitton is not clothing, it’s luxury. That’s the problem with you Lucite. Being a donk you can’t make that differential assessment. You call Louis Vuitton clothing.
Regarding my accusation of your race, does it bother you? Good! Hey you admitted it’s a black thing when Mr. X called you on your bullshit word use. Now you continue to use it, hence you have to be black, otherwise any NORMAL human being with one iota of cognitive thought would have stopped with the N-word being white.
Lucite, why did you get banned on Spund Politics? Could it be the posting on Seattle School Property and time? Again, you are so ignorant of the issues.
Lucite I want you banned from everywhere only for your use of the N-Word. It’s unAmerican and unkind to minorities of which you claim to gladly support except when you would turn down a po NO black family!!!
lucy@63-65–
I understand your frustration. The difference between us is that if Goldy asks me not to post anymore, I won’t. I won’t spend endless time and energy looking for ways to disrupt HA the way you have a SP. lucy doesn’t take NO for answer. It’s Goldy’s Blog. It’s Stefan’s Blog. If either asked me to stop, I would.
lucy, your biggest problem is that you a nuts. People like you who are obviously crazed are unfortunately ALWAYS the last to know it.
I also believe Stefan has a policy of not accepting posts from Government Internet access sites. He has been very consistent about that…because he believes that Public Servants ought to be using Public Resources to serve the Public. I know that may be a difficult concept for you to grasp but most level-headed folks would probably agree with Stefan. I do.
Goldy, I think you will find all of us who are always RIGHT will respect your decision to BAN whoever you choose. It’s your BLOG. But again, I think you will find a huge difference between those of us who are always RIGHT and LEFTIST PINHEADS (aka LENIN’S USEFUL IDIOTS) like lucy, GBS, Don*****don etc. We will respect your request not to post….you won’t have to waste your valuable time policing idiots like lucy!
Comprende?
re 68: Fine. Then let’s ban you. Your claim to the moral high ground is, as always, highly suspect.
I hope Roger Rabbit is OK— not that you’d care, Senor Synicale.
loonatic@69—
Au contraire shitferbrains…Roger Rabbit os one of my favorite LEFTIST PINHEADS…he’s not stupid like you and fights for what he believes in and has a sense of humor.Re; my claim to the moral high ground—–
That is something sadly that you will never understand RACIST PIG!
AM I allowed to say “SENOR”, Mr. Cynical. Or is there some important reason I shouldn’t?
“Oye como va, negrito…”
Carlos Santana
Did Carlos break any of your verbal rules in that song? Is he being racist. Translate the song and figure it out for yourself———- Solomon.
You need to be banned , Cynical, you doddering old reprobate! You have not an ounce of honesty in your booze-soaked holy vessel.
re 66: “‘splain”!!!!!!!! You racist!!! Now you’re mocking Ricky Ricardo!!! You aren’t fit to lick his marraccas. You couldn’t perform ‘Baba Lou’ if your life depended on it! No, Puddybud, you CAN’T go to the Copacabana and help out with the show!!!
Mr. Cynical @ 60; Prr @62:
The issue isn’t whether to ban “trolls,” but to hold people accountable when their rhetoric gets out of line. You two seem perfectly capable of conducting a meaningful discussion when you decide to put aside the mindless name calling. So does headless lucy. Under a ranking system, the silent majority that reads this blog will finally have the power to throw water on all of your flame wars.
There seems to be substantial confusion about how the site would work under the new software. It would not be Goldy’s decision alone to decide the make-up of his commenters and diarists. As I understand it, Scoop is very much a “bottom-up” system, with two key features. First, readers can start their own diaries. On Daily Kos, after an initial waiting period, registered users can post one diary a day, and the mods reserve the right to delete extras. Goldy probably could do something similar… or not; it’s up to him. Second, users can comment on diaries, and there is a user rating system, whereby users are allowed to rate the comments of others. When your rating exceeds a certain point, you be come a “trusted” user and gain additional privileges. When it dips below a certain point, you lose privileges. See: http://www.dkosopedia.com/inde.....tings_work?
If I’m wrong about how it works at dKos or how it would work here, please set me straight, but it appears to me that Goldy is actually giving up a lot of control over the site’s content to his regular readers.
If that’s how it would really work, I suspect, in the short term, the rating system will be used to settle old scores. Months-old disagreements will yield troll-ratings, regardless of the content of the rated post. In the long term, it will promote a “community” that self-selects. If we choose to select a community that is passionate *and* diverse, it could be quite entertaining and enlightening. Or we could choose to select a community that continues the tone and content of the current comments threads, or one that becomes ideologically pure. I suspect, over the long haul, the most likely outcome will be the last of these (monolithic).
At the end of the day, though, it’s up to you, Goldy. I think you should ask yourself a number of questions. You’ve probably already thought this through, but here are a few that come to mind right away: What do you want from this site? Do you think you (and we) will gain more from the change than is lost? Is the risk of becoming an “Amen Chorus” worth the possible loss of diversity? How much have you (and we) gained from the diversity that exists now? At what point does your devotion to the progressive agenda trump your devotion to bipartisanship?
Personally, and for what it’s worth, I think the change will be a net positive. The current comments threads are of limited utility, so there’s not much loss there. And the possibility of finding and encouraging “new talent” is a potential long-term benefit with a substantial up-side.
Anyhoo, good luck with your decision, and, no matter what happens, thanks for the forum you have provided so far.
Another TJ @ 75:
Ehhh. You sort of have it.
I am not familiar with Scoop, but am very familiar with Slashcode, which it is based on (I have a very low userid and very high rating at Slashdot. I don’t think much of this except that I know how to run up points at Slashdot if the points bin is running low. I can even do this without slagging Bill Gates or fellating Linus Torvalds).
Essentially, it works like this: Readers who post frequently and make “good posts” in the view of the community will get both a trusted user status, and the ability to moderate other people’s remarks. People who abuse the system will become “untrusted” users and their comments will not be visible to anyone except the trusted users.
Both slash and scoop have a form of meta-moderation. If someone abuses their ability to mark comments up or down, their influence in the moderation process will be sharply curtailed.
How well any of this will work depends on whether you think the community as a whole is fair. I think Goldy gives everyone a lot more rope than they deserve. And when I say everyone I mean everyone. The “Chimpy McFlightsuit is evil and everyone who voted for him is a moron.” posts are just as stupid and unconstructive as the “Hillary is a bitch and Michael Moore is fat” posts.
I notice a lot of the conservative posters are spouting issues with moderation. I am personally surprised by this. Adam Smith’s invisible hand works in blog space too. There are lots of blogs covering local issues that are populated almost exclusively by lefties, have comments exclusively by lefties, and don’t get much traffic.
I want to read something different. I don’t need anyone telling me that I’m right all the time. If HA turns into another blog with lefties high-fiving each other about how smart they are, it will no longer be as widely read as it is. We need you guys. We really do. We just need you to put down the pipe and put a little meat behind your arguments, it’s not hard.
p.s. I don’t want to say HA isn’t bipartisan. It obviously is. The problem is not with bipartisanship. The problem is that a very small number of posters on either side of the aisle are clogging up the comments site with infantile points that were gleaned from their respective parties’ talking points bin. I find myself going through the threads thinking “Does this person ever do anything except insult conservatives, and insult them badly? Can I just filter them? Oh. There goes so-and-so comparing King County to Zimbabwe again. It was really trite a year ago, and he hasn’t developed his material to make it funnier.”
Leave the shit-throwing fights for the monkey house at Woodland Park. I’m busy and don’t have time for it.
Thanks for the clarification, jsa.
You’re welcome.
You’d be a great poster here, if only you could shake your weird Gnomistic bias. ;-)
“77, Another TJ, “There goes so-and-so comparing King County to Zimbabwe again.” Lots of Democrat voter fraud in Seattle and in Harare. Seems like a worthy point to me!!
Goldy-
Go for it!
Your comment, “I have a sense that things have really degraded and I’ve lost a lot good commentators who just can’t bother to wade through the garbage”, is true.
A comment made, totally ignored for content and attacked for some silly reason, like a typo, eventually discourages those who are truly trying out their ideas here. I’m willing to go head to head with anyone, left – right – center, to test my ideas. Exposing one’s ideas and opinions, in good faith, is the only way to refine and come up with solutions that work for all. I’d like to see a competitive, yet friendly interchange between people with opposing views.
HA should be the premier Northwest debate society. It shouldn’t be just about mean politics but finding some agreement about policy and government – resolving social issues together – not attacking each other all the time. Certainly a good jab at an opponent is fine, as is a little self-deprecation (that would be especially good for some here, who take themselves way too seriously).
Currently, HA has devolved into attack pits. Most people responding to the threads are not interested in commenting constructively. They have fight club mentality. So, Goldy, I think it’s worth the pain of conversion, if you can get a higher level of discussion due to improved administration features. Thanks.
Paul–
I think any worthy Blog goes thru ups and downs in terms of quality of content, attacks etc. A combination of serious debate, humor and yes..occasionally STRONG disagreement and labeling is actually a good thing. It’s a microcosm of the world in which will live. Politics is about winning and losing. Government is about serving the people. By it’s nature their will be conflict. Why is that so bad???
I don’t think Goldy or some “Gang-mentality” of being the arbiters of what & how people state their opinions is without problems too.
That said allow me to address lucy-
lucy–
Just because folks are forced not to call you a fucking idiot doesn’t mean you aren’t a fucking idiot. Know what I mean?
Goldy
This must be the motive for your diabolical plan to upgrade:
http://www.typepad.com/t/trackback/3207879
sorry bout that, I meant:
http://www.evergreenpolitics.c.....of_th.html
Cynical,
Your point is valid, but everyone is equally entitled to join in the “gang” that makes up the gang mentality. Conservatives, liberals, and even * gack * Libertarians.
The only moderated blog I spend any time on is Slashdot, and I don’t spend that much time there. My experience is that while the “gang” promotes a certain quantity of groupthink (posts hailing the genius of Linux companies that bleed red ink while giving software away get lots of ratings points in the absence of both computer science and business sense), people generally don’t get moderated down unless there is a broad consensus from a number of people that the poster is really wasting everyone’s time.
There is also this unfortunate reality that some people write better than others. Once threads on a blog start running into high double or low triple digits, reading every word that every person spews off the top of their head starts burning major quantities of time. The ability to filter and say “Let me see everything”, or just “Let me see what other people have marked as worth reading” is a big time-saver.
You, for one, don’t have to worry. As long as you quit spouting about LEFTIST PINHEADS! you’re a fairly eloquent writer. You’ll probably find yourself getting read more and ignored less than you would in the current flat format.
JSA: Good commentary. As always you bring an equilibrium to this blog.
Yes Lucite, you are a fucking idiot. ‘Splain is also an inner city term. Apparently you haven’t been hanging around the negroes as you claim to have.
I want to take another take on what Cynical has said. If one reads the Constitution and the Federalist Papers, government as JFK said was for and by the people. Unfortunately, many American people recently born (after 1965 lets say) expect a government handout from the uterus. That’s all they know. When you get free stuff will you work to free yourself of getting free stuff. Not likely!!! Now read this next sentence many times Lucite because you may finally comprehend. There are more whites than blacks on welfare.
Now, look at the poachers whom appeared upon announcement of the $60 Billion? Is the Shaw Group (D) some of the poachers? Is Halliburton (D&R) some of the poachers? I expect some wild commentary on that question.
I think a few more clarifications are due.
I have always defended the use of invective and foul language… as long as they also contain some content. I do not want HA to be a high school debate club… I want it to be passionate and entertaining. But I also want it informative.
By far my biggest complaint is when trolls intentionally drive comment threads off topic. I expect the discussions to be organic and tangential… but too often the bullshit is completely blatant. That is unacceptible. Except for the open threads, this is my sand box, and you play here at my pleasure… and I deeply resent efforts to hijack the comment threads. Of course, one of the advantages of Scoop is that rather than trying to hijack a thread, you can post your own diary, and hope it gets enough traction with readers to hang in the recommended list.
As to giving up control… yes and no. Like Kos, I would still control the main content on the home page (though, like Kos, I hope to add some additional authors over time, who mesh with my politics and my style.) So, whatever people might post in the diaries, readers would still have to come through my editorial content to see it.
While I have no demographic data, my guess is that my comment threads do not accurately represent the politics of the vast majority of my readers. So I expect that the community will end up tilting more to the left. BUT… I would hope that the spirit of tolerating and embracing dissent will guide the community in regards to comment rating. Only “trusted users” would have the “troll rating” option, and if things got out of hand one way or the other, I would not hesitate interceding with the hand of Goldy to set things right.
I don’t want to preach to the choir here… but neither do I want a handful of manipulative bastards from the other side to make my comment threads all but worthless. So yes… some of you (JCH comes to mind) will surely end up being troll-rated in a New York minute. The flip side is, you’ll all have more of an opportunity to provide original news and commentary.
The concern shared by most is that your blog will end up as the ‘Left Wing Mutual Agreement Society’, containing nothing more than monolithic left-leaning talk, having already banned those people who make it more interesting by sharing a difference of opinion. I don’t agree with most of what I read here, but I come here, precisely because I’m thoroughly bored with SP’s take on local issues.
But Hell, it’s your blog. However, I suspect from the thread that most of those on the right come here for the same reason.
Thanks Goldy. I think it is time for the change. I like so many others here I am sure, am tired of the constant insulting threads that take away from the true discourse. It would be nice to read even an opposing opinion without the “LEFTIST PINHEAD” laced into every post. It has gotten as bad as you believe. It has been hard to read through.
Thanks,
Jim
Jimmynap@92–
Just because an opposing opinion is forced to not call you a LEFTIST PINHEAD…it doesn’t mean you aren’t a LEFTIST PINHEAD, know what I mean??
Labeling opposing viewpoints isn’t all that bad. I’m sorry you are so fucking fragile and such a pansy-ass that it bothers you. However, I think what bothers you more is that someone STRONGLY disagrees with your view of the world. Know what I mean?
So Jimmynap…you are bothered by LEFTIST PINHEAD. That seems pretty mild compared to being repeatedly called Nazi’s and other more highly offensive labels. Don’t you think??
Why don’t you focus on toning down your fellow LEFTIST PINHEADS if you are really serious about cleanin’ up Dodge. The LEFTIST PINHEADS are the majority here as Goldy acknowledges. I thought LEFTIST PINHEADS were committed to protecting minority opinions??? Guess not.
Cynical…
I think you might get sensored for that.
re 93: Oh! You poor victim!
prr @ 94,
Fox News is not required to give the freak of the week a half hour of airtime. The Wall Street Journal does not have an obligation to let anyone who asks spew excreta all over the editorial page. Even the Seattle P-I has some editorial control over which barbarians are let through the gate.
Nobody accuses them of “censorship”. They don’t have to explain this. It’s editorial discretion. It’s common sense.
Any time someone at a blog even thinks about putting even the mildest form of editorial discretion over the comments section, someone with a poor understanding of English and what they are personally “entitled” to in terms of freedom of speech starts yelling “CENSORSHIP!”
Censorship generally refers to, ummm, let’s see. I keep a dictionary here somewhere… Ah yes. From The Oxford English Dictionary, 2/e
Censor, n.
b. spec. An official in some countries whose duty it is to inspect all books, journals, dramatic pieces, etc., before publication, to secure that they shall contain nothing immoral, heretical, or offensive to the government. More explicitly dramatic censor, film censor.
(with gracious thanks to the Seattle Public Library for purchasing an access license to the OED database with public funds, thereby saving me thousands of dollars and the guilt of having denuded a forest for a paper copy of the OED).
There are no officials working here to censor your views.
Rather than complaining here, email the WSJ and tell them your Freedom of Speech is being infringed upon because you don’t get a space on the editorial page. Save the transcript of emails for us. It’ll be interesting and amusing.
And to expand on JSA’s comment… I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. If you don’t like it here on HA, you are always free to leave. In fact, if I switch to Scoop and you chafe at the community standards that evolve, I encourage you to set up your own competing blog. I look forward to letting the free market decide which blog is more successful.
JSA,
I’ll address your nonsense.
You bring up a valid point. The Wall Street Journal & Fox News differ from HA on so many different levels,
1.For instance, people pay for these opinions.
2. Advertisers support the business
3. They have editors
4. They have Journailists
5. They have credibility,
HA has none of that.
prr,
Goldy pays for these opinions.
Goldy supports the business.
For fear of repeating an often hurled cry from the right:
“Love it or leave it.”
Republicans say big government doesn’t work. Then they get elected and prove it.
Not so apropos – food for thought: http://www.taxwisdom.org
prr @98,
Huh? You’re either fucking insane or fucking stupid. HA is my sandbox, and I can do with it as I please. Most sites would have booted an ungrateful, whining bastard like you months ago, and yet you continue to complain about me censoring people?
Go start your own blog and see if you can strike up a debate with the half-dozen people a day that might stumble on it via a Google search.
Great,
The make the site a meber site or shut up.
If you want to post your insane ramplings, don’t be upset when people respond
Goldy,
I would encourage you to review your blog infrastructure and do whatever is needed to deal with the following issues:
1.) Provide some way of “registering” a username in the comments. One can still post anonymously, but not with a registered name. And, in the interest of fairness, you should handle the first bunch manually so that sneaky people don’t inappropriately grab Roger’s, Donna’s, marks’, Cynical’s… mine… or anyone else’s already-established nicknames. You can verify by IP, right?
2.) Provide a Preview button for posts. This helps not only for content, but for formatting, potentially broken links, etc. It would be REALLY good if it would even flag a post if it would fail the filter.
3.) Significanly improve the spam filtering function. Perhaps registered names would get no filtering? Or maybe create a word filter file of your own?
Goldy, per a recurring topic here, for your consideration:
http://www.pandagon.net/archiv....._of_c.html
Goldy: May I submit for your reading pleasure:
iraqataglance.blogspot.com/ – It’s a real read of what’s happening in Iraq. This is how a clean blog does it well and telling some truth of Iraq. I wait for the left to villify these links too.
Goldy, go for it! I have been musing that it would be nice to have threaded (nested) comments, to keep conversations in the comment section organized and separated from one another — that way the trolls can fight with each other in one thread while serious discussion goes on in another.
Perl isn’t such a difficult scripting language, anyway, and I’m sure lots of folks will be able to give you a hand should you need it (although it sounds like jsa has you covered).
Good luck with the transition!
David, we “trolls” don’t fight with each other. We provide the intelligent serious discussion to today’s topical issues. We point out many mistakes your side likes to perpetrate on the unsuspecting masses that read this blog or the Seattle based MSM whom never performs it’s due diligence. Your side likes to repeat the same mooron.org mantras, and then project that upon us when we use the MSM.
Case in point: Upon the Katrina catastrophe, your side blames Bush for decabinetizing FEMA. Another standard blame Bush call without merit. I went back to prove that FEMA was moved by your side (Joe Lieberman) upon the call for DHS in 2002. Did anyone say we were wrong and apologized for the stoopid commentary? Hell no. Being a donk means you never apologize or say your sorry!!! Wasn’t Mike Brown approved in a vote by what – 91-0 in the senate?
Puddybud @ 106
I think your missing the point on the gensis of this whole discussion.
This is about Goldy growing up, he’s starting to get recognition and wants to establish himself as a real journalist.
Unfortunately, his reputation is that of a political hack and the message banter that has become the focus of his blog continues to drag him in the category of “wacko”.
Essentially, he is to journalsim what Richard Lee is to Sattles mayoral race.
I have a feeling, based on the timing on this post, that Ron Simms took issue with Goldy being at the same fundraiser and Goldy’s been doing some soul searching.
so what ever happened with this? I was hoping to set up shop over here once scoop got deployed :)