[NWPT60]The Seattle Times’ James Vesely and I don’t often see eye to eye, but since his latest column is more observation than opinion, there’s not much for me to disagree with. Vesely reports on the growing frustration of federal officials over our region’s apparent inability to prioritize our regional transportation planning… and stick to it.
No kidding.
Vesely is absolutely dead-on when he writes that our “confusion and indecision about transportation… [is] not imposed on us in Olympia or Washington D.C.” But then, neither is it imposed on us by our local elected officials. Let’s face it, our voters are more than a touch schizo when it comes to transportation issues… after all, where else but Seattle could a truly grassroots project like the Monorail be four times approved by voters, only to be vilified as a product of an arrogant and out-of-control bureaucracy? I know it’s fashionable to blame politicians for failing to respect “the will of the people,” but really, how can you respect a will that’s about as steadfast as that of a toddler who’s missed his nappy time?
Perhaps a dictatorial regime like that of New York’s Robert Moses wouldn’t quite play well with voters accustomed to the nicey-nice “Seattle way”… but at least Moses got things done. The closest we’ve come is Ron Sims unshakeable support for voter-approved light rail, an act of political courage that has earned him the passionate scorn of opponents, a reaction typical of a region that seems to confuse leadership with arrogance. The result is a political gridlock that’s far more intractable than the transportation gridlock we’re trying to fix. And as Vesely points out, it’s not just our own congressional delegation that’s growing frustrated at voters’ mixed messages.
Even more pointed was the statement from transportation chairman Rep. Don Young of Alaska, who told Seattle Times Washington, D.C., reporter Alicia Mundy, “Anyone who thinks of repealing the gas tax is not thinking.”
Young said in The Times of July 1: “Your problem won’t go away just by wishing it away. It’s going (to) cost and you’re going to have to pay for it.”
Again… no kidding.
Initiative 912 backers — like backers of all initiatives — talk about sending a message to Olympia… but I think most legislators don’t need another initiative to tell them that voters would prefer to get something for nothing. The fact is, the gas tax hike was part of a comprehensive transportation plan, that carefully prioritized transportation projects based on a number of criteria, the most important being immediate public safety. Legislators understood that a tax hike would be unpopular, but in this case necessary, and if voters reward their boldness by repealing the increase, the Legislature will likely respond by giving the public the only available alternative… absolutely nothing.
Such inaction would surely cost lives and economic growth… but there can be no statewide transportation planning without statewide funding.
If, as every poll and instinct predict, voters will not hesitate to pass the initiative repealing the added tax on gasoline, the next logical step would be an effort for counties to keep all the tax revenue they raise within the county and not spread it around the state, giving rise to the islands of isolation known as the state of Washington.
This would be bad public policy, but if I-912 passes, it may be the only way to provide a stabile funding source for desperately needed transportation improvements. Anybody want to sponsor an initiative?
Amen, Goldy. You characterize the situation and mind-set of Washington voters perfectly. I think if this initiatize passes, though, there is going to be hell to pay. And ironically but deservedly, it is Eastern Washington that is really going to be f**ked. The only good thing about it would be watching the yokels get what they deserve. But my I’m not really so vindicitive that I’d like to see that happen.
BREAKING NEWS – ABC News anchor Peter Jennings has died of lung cancer. He had not appeared on the nightly news since April, due to his illness.
It’s strange that Wingers, as people with a president-knows-best mentality who would never question the military’s command structure, believe our Legislature is “arrogant.”
Perhaps they would prefer a more authoritarian Legislature and a more top-down style of politics?
OK Goldy, not having seen any polls yet, I’ll foolishly stick my neck out and argue that only half of our voters are mentally unbalanced — the half that voted for Bush/Rossi. I’ll take a flyer and gamble that a lot of folks in the Puget Sound area DO understand what will happen to them if they vote against transportation spending. Even Eastern WA is one-third liberal voters. The E. WA hicks can rant all they want; they’re only 14% of the state’s electorate. If I-912 passes, we’ll be to blame, not them.
Out of the big three I liked Jennings the best. It is wierd and sad to know he is gone. He seemed to young.
The DOT gets plenty of money, but they waste it on stupidity like the “prevailing wage”, and (un)sound transit. The democRATS in power refuse to implement independent audits. Sending them more money under these conditions is just giving them a license to steal.
The best way to overcome the I-912 mentality is to pass a law is to open up the government books to independent audits. The reason why Eyeman & company pass so many initiatives is because there are a lot of people who do not trust what the government is telling them. If I were a dem I would jump on this. What better way to confirm what you already know that there is no waste? You could truly pin the blame on any transportation woes on the lack of funding.
Gary,
You’re not a very bright person are you?
DOT doesn’t give money to sound transit. sound transit collects its own revenue and is independent of DOT.
The DEMOCRATIC-CONTROLLED Legislature just passed legislation (EHB 1064) mandating independent performance audits of state government. This legislation was signed into law by DEMOCRATIC Governor Christine Gregoire.
You’re stupider than a brick, Gary.
I don’t think SoundTransit gets any money from DOT. I seem to remember Pierce, Snohomish, and King county voting to tax themselves to build all of these grand mass transit systems–twenty-something miles of rapid transit in and out of Seattle, express busses, etc. What we got was half a light rail system at twice the price and some other really expensive, not very effective transit solutions. Thanks SoundTransit. And while we’re here, Sims deserves all the heat he gets for ST. The ‘voter approved’ light rail would be great if that’s what Sims was backing, but that’s not what we’re getting. And that’s why people are pissed.
It’s not that the ‘public’ is schizo. It’s just a matter of which HALF of the public happens to be yelling the loudest at any given moment. Currently the political establishment seems to be yelling the loudest. They hate the monorail because it’s easier to tear it down than to fix the mess they created in ST.
So after being thoroughly ticked off at the powers that be for that bait-and-switch, the ‘public’ of Seattle decided to go it alone and see if they could build their own transit solution from the ground up. The monorail was born (and it’s still a good idea IMO) but w/o the fed/regional tax base to fund the system, and the shortfall of the tax they did choose, there isn’t enough money even to do our own Seattle thing.
520, viaduct, ST, monorail, all serious needs and problems, and what are our leaders talking about? Boeing effing Field and the goddamnd Lake Union Trolley.. Blame ‘the public’ for that? That’s not schizo. It’s a problem created by a woeful lack of leadership. If ST had delivered, if Sims had provided proper oversight (instead of turning it into a redevelopment office for the south end), if only uncle Paul liked monorails better than trolleys…
How can you blame ‘the public’ for not knowing WTF to do aboiut transit? What are the f**kers we vote into office for? The public apparently has to choose between steadfast defenders of flawed transit policy, or spineless politicians waiting to see which way the wind is blowing. And when the going gets tough they float an initiative and blame us for our lack of confidence in their judgement.
The public didn’t make this mess.
Goldy — if we adopt your initiative to localize gas tax dollars in the county they are paid, should we allow the counties to also impose local road tolls to fund these projects?
For example, Kittitas County is supposed to get $387.7 million in the recently passed transportation package for “Constructing a new six lane roadway on I-90 from Hyak to the Keechelus Dam. It will address avalanche closures by constructing a tunnel and/or new bridges near the existing snowshed.”
Obviously, it would be extremely difficult for Kittitas County to come up with money to maintain Interstate 90 just from its local gas tax revenues — even if improvements weren’t required. Think of all the snow removal equipment that must be maintained and operated, and the artillery and other measures used for avalanche control — not to mention the normal maintenance on I-90 (and also a good stretch of I-82 and US-97 to boot).
But it would be very easy for Kittitas County to come up with this money if its county commissioners were allowed to impose tolls on I-90, etc. Simply charge a few bucks per automobile, and lotsa bucks for trucks, and they will have plenty of money to modernize I-90, pave all the local streets with gold, and spread the wealth among the hangers-on at the county courthouse …
Since Kittitas County didn’t pay for the existing I-90, there’s no reason why the county should collect tolls for using it. If Kittitas County made improvements, and the tolls were set in the amount necessary to pay for the improvements, it would be justified.
What is not justified is King County sending over $125 million a year of gas taxes to other counties, then voters in those counties crying “foul” when they’re asked to kick in a little for projects in King County. Even after the gas tax raise, they’ll still be subsidized.
TORA BORA WAS “STRATEGIC DISASTER”
During the 2004 presidential debates Bush accused Kerry of “the worst kind of Monday morning quarterbacking” for suggesting the U.S. let Osama bin Laden escape from Tora Bora, Afghanistan.
Turns out Kerry was right and Bush was bullshitting.
A former CIA officer who was on the scene says, “He was there.”
Military author Sean Naylor calls Tora Bora a “strategic disaster” because the Pentagon refused to deploy a cordon of conventional forces to cut off escaping Qaeda and Taliban members — including, according to the CIA officer, Osama bin Laden.
Roger Rabbit @ 12
We should have allowed Kittitas County the authority to impose whatever tolls they feel like imposing on I-90 and do with the extra money as they please. Or let King County keep their supposed extra gas tax money (actually a lot less than $125 million per year, if you look at the average of the last decade or two).
They could have used this extra money to deploy a cordon of conventional forces to cut off escaping Qaeda and Taliban members. This would have enabled us to capture Osama Bin Laden at Tora Bora.
Goldy–
WAAAAAAAAAAAH! WAAAAAAAAAAAH!
The voter frustration is with the lack of leadership by elected officials who have allowed BUREAUCRATS too much money and leeway in “visioning”. They have allowed unaccountable PINHEADS (both Left & Right) to PISS AWAY precious tax dollars designing things we cannot afford.
Our stupid “leaders” remind me of the couple who hire an architect to design a house. The architect comes back with designs for a $2 million home that is perfect in every regard with lots of bells & whistles (like the AWV). The couple goes to the bank and the bank says “You can only afford a $300,000 house”. So what are those plans worth???
There is clearly a bureaucratic arrogance that has long been out of control. And a “leadership” stupidity that these dumbasses were born with. They are now relying on taxpayers to close there eyes, bend over and take it with no vaseline. AIN’T GONNA HAPPEN GOLDY!
Goldy; how come you cannot address the “quality” of the roads, transit issues”. Its always about the funding, the disparity of tax/spend amongst counties.
Surely you go out to dinner and criticize restaurants, or judge cars, read Consumer reports. I doubt you ever ponder the struggling restaurant needing to raise prices, or get some loans. Surely you pay attention to “quality”
We have easily one of the worst AND least cost effective set of transit solutions anywhere.
I can go to SF and ride Bart, and say, ok, likely wastes money, but it serves most of my needs, Skytrain in Vancouver, same. Got to Europe or Japan; great products.
Come back here; no way I’d ride the bus to our airport, no way i’d take the light rail down the Rainier “corridor”, sounder to everett or back, our buses (ha).
Tax and spend liberal, i think that’s all you are…
MOH – Since you claim to be the bright spot here at HA, did you actually read the audit law? No probably not. There is no teeth in the law to force any department to perform any audit. Email Brian Sonntag and he’ll explain it to you. But, then again, you have to have a mind to comprehend what he would tell you! Good luck finding the mind. So whom is the stupider than a brick person, you (mindless) or Gary (thoughtful)?
lesjam @9,
Of course the public made this mess! We elect the politicians! We pass the brain-dead, short sighted initiatives! This is our democracy, and whether it’s ineffective local policies or a neo-fascist federal government trying to turn our nation into a one party state, it’s still our fault for electing the bastards and passing the initiatives in the first place!
Voters approved light rail, and voters have twice elected Ron Sims! And you know what? Dollars to doughnuts we’ll re-elect Sims. If the KCGOP had better transportation alternatives they’d nominate a better challenger instead of an unlikable, know-nothing blowhard like Irons.
Talk about abdicating responsibility… that’s exactly what voters do every time they blame government. And don’t tell me that I-912 is an example of voters taking charge, because it ain’t. It’s voters say “NO” like the big baby we constantly prove to be. What I don’t see coming from the initiative or its backers is a viable alternative. No… they’ll repeal the gas tax, and then blame the government for not fixing the roads… anger and blame they’ll use to repeal the next gas tax.
This state is pathetic. We attack politicians for not being bold, and then we attack them being arrogant when some idiot screws up the courage to actually do something. The electorate simply doesn’t know what the fuck it wants.
Richard @10,
First of all, I agree that such balkanization would be bad public policy, but what the fuck are urban voters supposed to do? Apparently it’s okay when we export tax dollars to rural counties, but the second there’s a transportation plan slightly weighted the other way it’s a taxpayer revolt. They can’t have it both ways.
As to a Kittitas County toll, well first, I come from a part of the country where tolls are common, and I have no problem with them. Second, your example is a fantasy, since I believe in WA, tolls are only used to retire the bonds for the specific capital investment, not for maintenance or other purposes. So again, by all means, let’s put tolls on I-90 in Eastern WA to pay for capital improvements. No skin off my back.
Goldy–
WAAAAAAAAAAH! WAAAAAAAAH!
Your desperation to do “something” clouds your judgment to do the “right” thing Goldy. Typical reactionary LEFTIST PINHEAD who wails and gnashes his teeth when the tax dollar “faucet” is turned off.
WAAAAAAAAH!
Re 6 and 7: How about if we extend that kind of oversight to the “private” contractors in the “Struggle on Terror”?
And as for Mr. Cynical: You’re still a LITTLE EICHMANN……
A couple of years ago, maybe 3, the Legislature gave King, Pierce and Snohomish counties the authority to raise taxes to fund transportation improvements. Why haven’t you exercised that authority?
Oh, yah, the mass transit extremists will not support the new tax if a penny of it goes to moving automobiles and trucks.
May I suggest you quit bellyaching about I-912 and get on with solving your own problem yourselves.
You mean they don’t want funds earmarked for mass transit used to promote “private sector” activities like cars and trucks? How unreasonable of them! But then again, it’s less government “interference” for the private sector if our tax monies are not used to subsidize their activities. The way I see it: It would be just another huge victory for private enterprise and another opportunity for them to demonstrate their effectiveness without government help.
Oh, yeah! I forgot to mention that Puddybud and Mr Cynical are queen bitch SELF-HATING GAYS in the style of Roy Cohn—Who was a LITTLE EICHMANN just like they are.
Mount Olympus Hiker: This is just the kind of elitist snobbery I have come to expect from left wing extremists. The audit bill passed by the legislature provided for audit by the Joint Legislative Audit and Review Committee, not the independently elected state auditor. That committee is under close control of the legislature and the governor. that is not independent.
Unsouynd transit recieves money from the both the state and the federal governments. While this is not directly from WSDOT, it is transportation money that could have been spent on roads. I will refrain from offering an opinion of your intelligence.
Goldy @ 18
I was being somewhat sarcastic in my proposal for a Kittitas County toll. But it wouldn’t matter what tolls have historically been used for in this state. I don’t think anything in the state constitution restricts what can be done with toll money (unlike gasoline taxes, which are dedicated to roads). So if we go to local funding, we would pretty much have to allow the smaller rural counties to impose taxes on the interstates as a practical matter. Especially in Kittitas County, where even the maintenance (snow removal, avalanche control, and repairs) is very expensive.
And if we did that, I am sure that local folks in Kittitas County would eventually come up with innovative ways to waste the money — much like Monorail, Sound Transit, Port of Seattle, and Ron Sims are able to do in King County with our much more generous local tax bases.
Liberals in Seattle, of course, don’t get offended if gas taxes from all over the state are spent on gold-plated projects in King County. Nor do they get all that offended if their own local tax dollars are wasted on local gold-plated projects.
But imagine the wrath which would result if a Republican county government in eastern Washington were to impose tolls on I-90 (or I-82), and some liberal from Seattle had to pay the toll while driving through. And if the county hired a bunch of people, even at the $50,000 per year range, these liberals would be complaining that these Republicans were using their taxes to pad the payroll with a bunch of deadwood courthouse hanger-ons.
“Getting something for nothing”. That’s how the monorail gets its support. A lot of non car people voting to build the monorail on the backs of car owners via a property tax.
There have been some comments above referring to the poeple of Eastern Washington as “hicks” and “yokels.” This is NOT going to help solve any problems and most likely will trigger hateful feelings.
know it’s fashionable to blame politicians for failing to respect “the will of the people,” but really, how can you respect a will that’s about as steadfast as that of a toddler who’s missed his nappy time?
What a bunch of rhetorical vomit! The fact is that the people have been steadfast in their priorities. The voted down the Safeco field. Democrat Mike Lowry ran roughshod over the “will of the people” and crammed it down our throats. I guess that placating overpaid atheletes is a higher priority than say, transportation projects.
The people voted for the I-601 spending caps, and once again the Democrat majority in the Legislature crammed it down our throts and once again ran rough shod over the “will of the people”.
The people got a 5 cent increase a year ago in the gas tax even though they voted down referendum 51. Another case of running roughshod over the “will of the people”.
Then we have the biggest betrayal of the people’s will in the gaz tax that “No New Taxes” Gregoire sheparded through in the dead of night, once again over the “will of the people”.
Blaming democrats for not respecting the will of the people is not fashionable, it is factual and just. If they don’t want to be blamed for running over the will of the peopel, then they shouldn’t run over the will of the people.
pbj @ 29:
Name me one state rep that lost their seat over Safeco Field, or any of the decisions you mentioned.
Initiatives DO NOT get the attention of elected representatives (because of their inconsistency) – how else do you explain Eyman tax cutting on top of mandatory teacher raises and smaller class sizes (with no funding identified)?
Take private business, if a major corporation is being run badly, do the shareholders fire the sales force? No, they get rid of the board of directors/CEO/COO etc. Why should government be any different?
I’m not criticizing any of the moves made in Olympia; I’m just very very tired of this “they’re so arrogant, but I’m going to re-elect them anyway” mentality of the voters.
While you are passing that initiative, pass another one that bars the state from requiring the local counties to piss away money on things like new voting machines when the people have voted to retain the ones they already have. Specificly I am referring to Pierce County.
Goldy – C’mon… you’re pulling my leg right? While you did a nice job vomiting back Joni Balter’s inane rant a few days ago, you can’t possibly believe that selfishness, stupidity, talk radio or “something for nothing” mentality is behind 912.
But in case you and the other moonbats really are that dense, here’s the deal: Those of us that pay the majority of taxes are SAFT of having our money wasted. We want the problem fixed. Over the past couple of decades, we’ve allowed billions of dollars to be squandered on failed experiments in social engineering. We want concrete poured to make the freeways wider. Not studies, trains, trolleys, streetcars, monorails, HOV lanes, bike trails, EIS analyses, artwork, or fancy offices. Nice wide freeways. Get it?
So here’s the “message” we’re sending
We want the problem fixed. We want our money’s worth. There must be adults in charge. And until structural changes are made in the way we manage and engineer transportation projects, we’re cutting off the air supply.
I think there’s another agenda here. I don’t believe that even moonbats are so stupid as to really support the gas tax. I think what really has you concerned is that when this passes, Christine Gregoire becomes a lame duck. No matter what she does in the next 3 years, The People can and will overturn her and her accomplices if they go too far over the line. Could that be???
14
Well, I do agree with you to some extent, Cyn. Some years ago I attended a DOT public hearing on charging parking fees at Park-and-Ride lots THAT ALREADY EXISTED to pay for a parking garage at Northgate Transit Station and other goodies. I was the only citizen in attendance — they scheduled it at 4 p.m. on a workday, wonder why. But His Mayorness, Their Councilnesses, and plenty of bureaucrats and consultants were there. So I got up and congratulated Their Consultantnesses on their pretty artists’ renderings, then told them their idea sucked. His Mayorness replied, “We need more parking” and “that lot is full at 9:00 AM.” I said, “Well, why don’t you try parking at 7:00 AM? I’ve been working since I was 13, and I have yet to have a boss who will let me show up at 9:00 AM.” That shut him up, in fact, it shut them all up. I never heard anything more about their looney scheme to make people whose taxes had already paid for the Park-and-Ride lots pay to park there.
You’re right, Cynical, we need to keep an eye on the bureaucrats and consultants. They can’t be trusted. But a lot has changed since then. The pols and burs have been hit with so many initiatives they now realize the voters are serious. DOT has been downsized and reorganized. There’s new accountability laws and mechanisms. They publish the project lists now. And state legislators are watching.
Vigilance isn’t a bad thing. However, it isn’t a substitute for building necessary infrastructure, either. All the dissing on DOT et al. will not solve our state’s traffic problems. Only rebar and concrete will. And that costs money. It’s time for the taxpayers to pony up again — it’s for real this time, because if they don’t, it will cost our state productivity, jobs, economic growth, and quality of life. And not just in Seattle.
Reply to 19
I have yet to see a proposal from the Right Nuts explaining what the “right thing” is. All we get from you guys is No Taxes, No How, No Way!!!
20
Good idea, Harry. Our taxes are being used to pay mercenaries six-figure salaries for driving trucks and guarding outhouses while our soldiers die for $15,000 a year plus burial benefits. In Republican hands, the U.S. government hands out cash in duffel bags from pickup trucks to “private contractors” but these assholes won’t even pay for medical care for wounded soldiers. We could replace AWV with a gold-plated tunnel/seawall, complete with dancing girls, for what Bush squanders in Iraq every 24 hours. I don’t hear our Righty Troll friends raging about THAT — why not?!!
I propose Tolls for Trolls. Goldie will make a few $$, save the whales and retire in Freemont.
Jackass @ 22
We can’t solve Seattle’s traffic problems with car lanes alone, dummy! There’s a reason why nearly every large city in North America has mass transit. Because it’s the only way you can move the number of people you have to move, that’s why! A bus taking up the space of three cars carrying three people can carry 60 people. Cars are the most inefficient form of transportation there is, especially in cities where land isn’t available.
Goldy – Yer pullin my leg right? You did a nice job vomiting back Joni’s inane editorial of a few days ago, but you can’t possibly believe that selfishness, stupidity, talk radio and “something for nothing” is behind 912.
But in case you and the other moonbats are really that dense, here’s the deal: Those of us who pay the vast majority of taxes are SAFT of having our money wasted. We want the problem fixed. Over the past couple of decades, we’ve allowed billions of dollars to be squandered on failed experiments in social engineering. Now we demand to have concrete poured to make more, better and wider freeways. Not studies, choo choos, trolleys, streetcars, monorails, HOV lanes, bikes trails, EIS analysis, artwork or fancy offices. Nice wide freeways? Get it?
So here’s the message we’re sending. We want the problem fixed. We want our money’s worth. There must be adults in charge. And until there are structural changes to the way in which we manage and engineer transportation projects, we’re cutting off the air supply.
Roger Rabbit@33
With the money WSDOT is pissing away on frivolous things like “prevailing wage” they can already do the gold plating with dancing girls…
Not Informed at 25
You’re behind the times, Gary. The 2005 Legislature reorganized the state’s transportation agencies. The Transportation Commission was stripped of management functions and most of the audit functions were consolidated in the Commission, which now serves primarily as an audit body. The Transportation Secretary is now appointed by the Governor instead of the Commission, for more direct accountability to elected officials and voters. The 2005 Legislature also enacted new transportation accountability measures. You need to study the 2005 changes before you go off about audits and accountability.
Roger Rabbit@35
Look at LA, look at the traffic, look at the big empty bus. There simpleton I wrote it like a 1st grade reader so even you might understand.
Reply to 26
“So if we go to local funding, we would pretty much have to allow the smaller rural counties to impose taxes on the interstates as a practical matter.”
On what basis, Richard? To give them a new way to gouge urban dwellers for their roads? They didn’t pay for I-90 so why should they be allowed to collect tolls from the people who did? Since they don’t want to pay for roads, how about if they DO WITHOUT roads? That makes more sense than letting them stick their hands in our left pocket instead of our right pocket.
Chuck @ 36: Even if you were able (not bloody likely in this state) to get rid of prevailing wage, you would still need to raise funds for new projects. Where would this come from?
Reply to 26 (continued)
Oh — and Richard. Your disingenuousness is plain to see. Why do you suggest tolls on I-90 but not on local roads? Interstate highways are paid for with federal gas taxes. State gas taxes fund state highways and county roads. It makes more sense to put the tolls on those roads.
If we’re going to fund our transportation infrastructure with tolls, then I-90 should be free, and tolls should be charged by the state on state highways, by counties on county roads, and by municipalities on municipal streets. Under a rational toll system, you would drive from Seattle to George free, but it would cost you say $4.00 to drive from George to Ephrata, and if you got off the state highway in Ephrata to go to Aunt Millie’s house, 75 cents a block to drive on the city streets. If the streets have sidewalks, add another 25 cents a block.
You like? I like.
27
Good point. Glad I don’t live in Seattle.
Reply to 28
Point #1 — Some people in E. Washington ARE hicks and yokels.
Point #2 — There already ARE hateful feelings … coming from them at us, even as they thrust their hands deep into our pockets. It would be hard to find a greedier bunch of ingrates than the hicks and yokels in E. Washington.
Comment on 30
“if a major corporation is being run badly, do the shareholders fire the sales force? No, they get rid of the board of directors/CEO/COO etc.”
Not any more, they don’t. Nowadays shareholders have no say in anything. CEOs appoint friendly boards, then loot their companies. Which is one reason why investors are fleeing the stock market in droves and flocking to real estate.
Jon@40
It is not right to require contractors to pay a falsly inflated amount while at the same time trying to go to the people for a tax increase. First you thin the current operation into a lean machine that compares to a private company, including the “prevailing wage”, then you look at the top and trim back there both in manpower and salary, then you go to the people WITH A PLAN and say “we are a bit short here”. The people then support the program much like they support reasonable school levys and bonds.
Hot Stock Tip: I bought National Oilfields Varco (NOV) in June fo $44 and it’s now $59. Might not be too late yet as it’s still going up — another $2 today.
34
I like your idea.
34
On second thought, if Goldy did that, we’d have no one to bash or argue with, because not one of these trolls would pay a penny to post on HA, any more than they’re willing to pay anything to use public roads or send their kids to public schools. They are
F R E E L O A D E R S
Roger Rabbit@43
You know what the difference between the hicks and yokels tou refer to and the average city dweller? Without government the city dweller shrivels and dies, the hick lights a fire, shoots something and enjoys a fine meal. The city dweller thinkg government is the cure to problems and the hick knows that government many times IS the problem.
I don’t have time for you today, Chuckie. I need to call my broker. Maybe tomorrow.
Roger Rabbit@48
In reality your definition of freeloader is someone that doesnt want to see his money pissed away on projects that dont help traffic flow, or benifet very few.
Here’s an idea. You know how these Righty Trolls are against taxes and for user fees? Pay as you go? Okay. (Drum roll) How about people who support wars paying for them? We could, for example, set up a coin box in every household … and everyone who wants to invade Iraq inserts quarters. When there’s enough quarters, we invade Iraq. If people who want to invade Iraq don’t insert enough quarters enough to pay for the war — no war.
You like? I like.
That’s all for now. I gotta go. Have to make a phone call.
51
Iraq?
Goldy – Did you ban me for making too much sense? Free my post !
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/oc.....NlYwM5NjQ-
Goldy @ 17
‘The electorate simply doesn’t know what the fuck it wants.’
We want a mass transit solution in urban King County. We want the Viaduct to not kill us at some random moment. We want to cross Lake Washington in a reasonable amount of time. This is not hard to figure out. We voted for things that we think will give us what we want. But that trust has been pissed away by ST and Sims, and Tom Weeks and Monorail and the third runway and Southwest airlines and all of the other boondoggles. So now you have this fantastic history of ineptness that must be dealt with.
Yes we are ultimately responsible for this mess. We know what we want, though, and we’ve demonstrated that we will vote to tax ourselves to get it. But how many times are we going to be suckered? Who’s going to stand up and say, “You voted on this stuff, and we couldn’t pull it off. Here’s your money back.” or ”here’s a better plan.” I admittedly have a chip on my shoulder about ST and I’m not letting it go. Sims’ baffling support of Southwest’s move into Boeing Field does not increase my estimation of his leadership. He’s a tool.
We just want a little competence.
Roger Rabbit @ 41
You say that interstate highways are entirely paid for by federal gasoline taxes. I would have thought exactly the same thing myself. If this is the case, THEN EXPLAIN WHY:
Kittitas County is supposed to get $387.7 million in the recently passed transportation package for “Constructing a new six lane roadway on I-90 from Hyak to the Keechelus Dam. It will address avalanche closures by constructing a tunnel and/or new bridges near the existing snowshed.”
We shouldn’t be needing any state gas tax money for the above project on I-90. Also, I-405 is also an interstate highway, and the various improvements needed on it should also be paid for by federal gas tax money.
Maybe interstate highways aren’t entirely paid for by federal gas tax money. Either that, or the cost of highway construction, maintenance and repair is so damned high in this state that the federal gas tax money allocated to Washington just doesn’t cover the entire bill.
far as I’m concerned you got all my transportation money already, its those two lovely sports stadiums for 2 losing teams, and those cute little ferries that go to every little podunk dock, those lovely sound transit trains/ and train station in Everett that has alot of everything but passengers….so hey enjoy, revels if you like in your “voter approved” trough, but your not getting any more slop without a fight, viva I-912, state goverment passes stupid fiscal policy, we flip it with an initiative. Bring it on….
Jon @ 30,
Name me one state rep that lost their seat over Safeco Field, or any of the decisions you mentioned.
That is part of the problem! What party has run this state for the past 20 years? (HINT: It wasn’t the Republican party – though some R’s were accomplices and thus rightly targeted for removal)
Initiatives DO NOT get the attention of elected representatives (because of their inconsistency) – how else do you explain Eyman tax cutting on top of mandatory teacher raises and smaller class sizes (with no funding identified)?
Uh yeah sometimes they do get the attention of elected officials. How else do YOU explain the fact that even though I-695 was thrown out in court, that Gary Locke put a law into place essentially doing what I-695 was for?
Take private business, if a major corporation is being run badly, do the shareholders fire the sales force?
Well, actually some do fire their sales force. But I digress.
No, they get rid of the board of directors/CEO/COO etc. Why should government be any different?
Well this is a one party state – let’s face it. And that is the problem now isn’t it? My legislator – Beverly Woods voted for that gas tax monstrosity. I want her out on her ass! She is a Republican but hopefully in November she will be an unemployed one.
I’m not criticizing any of the moves made in Olympia;
But you SHOULD be criticising the moves they make in Olympia. That is the point!
I’m just very very tired of this “they’re so arrogant, but I’m going to re-elect them anyway” mentality of the voters.
Well there is only a very select group you can lodge that complaint against. Namely, the Democrats who are for I-912 who voted in the other Democrats who brought us the gas tax in the first place. Lord knows it wasn’t because of Republicans that the Gregoire gestault gang was put in power.
pbj @ 60
“Well this is a one party state – let’s face it. And that is the problem now isn’t it?
Hmmm, I recall someone trying to criticize me for a similar statement, only mine applied to the federal level. The comment had something to do with “Euro-weenies” or something like that. Wait a minute, that was you, wasn’t it? Let’s see:
On that final point, many of my European colleagues simply scratch their heads and repeat to me the dictum: “a two-party government is only one party better than a one-party government”.
I am sorry that it embarrases you at the cocktail parties with your Euro buddies that we don’t just roll over and surrender to terrorists. Must be a bitch to get the lecture over cocktails with the Euro weenies eh?< Comment by pbj— 8/1/05 @ 9:20 pm
Yup, it was… Just checking…
Sorry, that was in the “Arrogant Recess Appointment” thread of last week.
dr e; surely you jest…
GOP a very recent entry into “one party rule”….think back on the 1933 to 1987 or so Dems owned the House and Senate (I am guessing on those dates, and I think GOP got 2 yrs to own the Senate at some point, briefly)
Wash state on the other hand, other than Dixie Lee, and Evans (barely a repub) is pretty darn liberal, one party
63
No jest… I don’t know if you got my point: pbj made light of my comments on the de facto one-party state at the federal level, and then complained about the same state of affairs on the state level. You can’t have it both ways.
pbj @ 60: “Uh yeah sometimes they do get the attention of elected officials. How else do YOU explain the fact that even though I-695 was thrown out in court, that Gary Locke put a law into place essentially doing what I-695 was for?”
I-695 was thrown out on a technicality, and if not signed, Eyman would have had a cleaner version out the next year which would have passed. Throw in Olympia’s then kowtowing to everything Eyman at the time, and there you go. They’re not scared of Timmy any more, however, becuase Eyman is a salesman, not a political force that can truly threaten their power.
Lemme ask you this: why doesn’t the legislature obey the ‘will of the people’ in your opinion? Because they know it won’t mean their jobs (or seats).
“But you SHOULD be criticising the moves they make in Olympia. That is the point!”
Not if NO CHANGE occurs. Why complain when I know that the voters will send back the same people time after time?
E – the comments I made light about are the fact that you worry about what the Euros think at the expense of our national security- not that you said anything about the “one party” state. Hell, for most of the 20th century Democrats ran the country, so any attempt at an analogy is false.
If people are mad about the current state of affairs in Washington State, then they should stop electing Democrat majorities that raise taxes as easily as breathing.
Hope this turns off the italics.
pbj @ ? (numbers not working on my browser)
“the fact that you worry about what the Euros think at the expense of our national security
This is a typical example of an intentional fallacy: you read into my earlier comments the idea that I would be “[worried] about what the Euros think at the expense of our national security”. I challenge you to find any specific instance where I indicated any such worry.
“Hell, for most of the 20th century Democrats ran the country, so any attempt at an analogy is false.”
Your argument here is, at best, irrelevant.
Let me show you how my analogy stands:
I state that current domination of the federal government represents a de facto one-party system. I imply that this is a problem (and will state for the record that I think it is). I did not make any mention of whether the Dems. or Repubs would be in charge of such system, since it’s irrelevant to the argument.
You say the same about the current domination of the Washington state government by the Democrats, i.e. that it’s a one-party system; further, you state that this one-party system, i.e. at the state level, is a problem.
Where’s the essential contradiction?
Dr E, its not both ways
Wash state is 1 party
US national gov’t arguably for 50 odd years nearly 1 party, with legistlature dominated by Dems…
righton: My “both ways” refers to the implication from pbj that the concept of de facto 1-party is different if the Dems. are in power than it is/would be if the Reps were. Not so: the concept is the same: de facto one-party system. The ideological/legislative content may differ, but the concept is the same. See my point?
The fact is that the people have been steadfast in their priorities. The voted down the Safeco field.
And then two years later the voters approved building a new stadium for the Seahawks. This is your example of the voters being steadfast? When in ’95 they vote no on a stadium plan and in ’97 they vote yes?
49
Oh year, sure, Chuckie — anybody can live off the land with a Winchester rifle … as long as they have a case of Dinty Moore and a can opener!
51
Pretty good description of the $125 million a year King County is sending to Podunkville.
60 et seq.
Washington isn’t a one-party state. The GOP has controlled the state senate for years, and the Democrats had to compromise with them. The Repubs hold the Secretary of State, Land Commissioner, and Attorney General offices. The Repubs control county and local government in 75% of the state.
65
“Hell, for most of the 20th century Democrats ran the country, so any attempt at an analogy is false.”
That isn’t true. The Repubs ran the country for the first one-third of the 20th century. The Democrats ran it for the middle third. The last third they traded off.
70, actually the voters were closely divided on the stadiums, Bax. The Mariners stadium narrowly lost. The Seahawks stadium narrowly won. Seattle is split about 50-50 between those who want stadia and those who don’t.
roger (allways yapping) Rabbit;
You really think GOP and dems traded from 1966 till 2000? wow, until 1994, i think the house and senate were run by the dems; maybe you are dean logan and can’t count?
actually the voters were closely divided on the stadiums, Bax. The Mariners stadium narrowly lost. The Seahawks stadium narrowly won. Seattle is split about 50-50 between those who want stadia and those who don’t
The Mariners’ stadium vote was just King County, and occurred before they made their now infamous playoff run in ’95. The vote barely failed.
The Seahawks’ vote was statewide, and passed in King County with 56% of the vote. It barely passed statewide, basically riding King, Pierce, and Snohomish Counties to victory.
I think my point still stands.
@81 – And don’t forget that the stadium is what finally put Eyman into business, and what then made Goldy famous. Eyman made Goldy. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
You make a critical error in the original post – the Light Rail plan currently being built was NOT, repeat NOT approved by voters. What voters approved was far bigger and a different route, which later they had to admit they couldn’t build nor afford anything like it. Thus they build a train to nowhere while their toadies like Conlin (A**H***) trash the monorail endlessly overtly and covertly. The monorail has had its troubles, but chief among them are a bunch of rich NIMBY jackasses like Henry ‘fud’ Aronson and Martin Sel(out) who would sacrifice our transit future for their own greedy fat pockets.
Judge for yourself who are the fools…..
jeff
Most of the comments on this post reflect what Goldy is talking about – schizo voters who prefer to get something for nothing.
As an individual who lives in Seattle, uses Metro daily, and does not own a car, the nice thing for me about this debate over I-912 is that I don’t give a shit whether the gas tax is repealed or not! Metro, Flexcar, and taxi cabs will all still be there for me, and my gas bill (see not owning a car, previously) will remain unchanged in any event.
For what it’s worth, I will be voting against I-912. Not because it will cost me anything one way or the other, but because I think that rebuilding the viaduct is an idiotic use of money and because I think that expanding SR 520 will make congestion in the city worse, not better (for all of you who might notice congestion – for me, it might mean that I read a few extra pages on my daily commute).
Roy—
Then you will be voting YES on I-912!
Oops – I will be voting yes on I-912, and against the gas tax increase.
Reply to 61
Interstate highways were built with 90% federal gas taxes, 10% state gas taxes. The federally funded Interstate construction program has now ended. I think the last piece of Interstate to be built under the 90 / 10 ratio in Washington was the I-90 Mercer Island floating bridge. The federal government still pays for most Interstate resurfacing, but if states want to expand or improve Interstates they are on their own. Oh, the feds might kick in some earmarked money in the next five year transportation bill, but not much. President Bush is too busy spending money blowing up things in Iraq to spend anything on infrastructure improvements here at home. That is why the State Department of Transportation, not Kittitas County, is supposed to get $387.7 million to widen and improve I-90 east of Snoqualmie Pass.
roy smith;
Glad you use and like metro; how about all you guys who use it pay full share for it, and spare me from funding your charity?
Clarification to 87
I should have said: That is why the State Department of Transportation is supposed to get $387.7 million from the new gas tax to widen and improve I-90 east of Snoqualmie Pass.