By a 2-1 margin, the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals refused to order reinsertion of Terri Schiavo’s feeding tube, saying her parents “failed to demonstrate a substantial case on the merits of any of their claims.”
One can only hope that our Supreme Court justices — who routinely refuse to grant stays of execution for prisoners whose cases have likewise exhausted all other legal appeals — act as judiciously as the lower courts, and allow Terri Schiavo to die in peace, ending this ordeal for her and her family. A quick and decisive ruling would place an exclamation mark on the shameful efforts of Republican lawmakers to exploit this personal tragedy in order to curry political favor with conservative Christians.
But the Schiavo case is only one example of the Bush Administration’s crusade to impose the morality of a powerful constituency onto the majority of Americans. The Seattle P-I reports today on the ongoing legal battles of a young Navy wife from Everett, who had to sue the military to pay for an abortion of her anencephalic fetus. Two years later, the woman’s attorney is shocked at how aggressively the federal government continues to appeal the case, seeking to force repayment of the $3,000 cost of the procedure:
“I can’t understand the impetus behind the government pursuing this case.”
I can. This is a culture war, and like all wars, the aggressors are willing to sacrifice a few innocent bystanders… even a 19-year-old woman carrying a fetus without a brain.
The so-called “right to lifers” are so absolute in their moral certitude, that they cannot distinguish between a real human life and a brain-dead or brainless person with no consciousness whatsoever. To them, promising medical research on a clump of cells is the moral equivalent of the Holocaust, were Nazis conducted vicious medical experiments on fully-formed and fully-conscious Jewish children.
One wonders if extraordinary measures were used to save the empty shell that Ronald Reagan’s body became after Alzheimer’s cruelly withered his brain, and how his family might have reacted if the courts or lawmakers had imposed them? These are the types of painful, personal decisions that families must make for their loved ones every day… and these decisions should remain personal, no matter what somebody else’s bible may say on the matter.
The same people who speak so loudly about the “defense of marriage” are the same people fighting to deny Michael Schiavo one if its most basic legal rights: the power to make medical decisions for an incapacitated spouse. Court after court has affirmed that Michael Schiavo has this right, and that his decision to remove the feeding tube was both medically proper and ethical.
To deny the Schiavo family the right to make its own medical decisions would not only be hypocritical, it would be a dangerous sign of a government increasingly willing and able to impose itself into our personal lives.
UPDATE:
By an 11-2 decision, the full court upheld a decision by a three judge panel of the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, to deny Terry Schiavo’s parents’ request to have her feeding tube re-inserted. Meanwhile, the Florida Senate once again rejected a bill, 21-18, that would have prohibited patients like Schiavo from being denied food and water.
Next stop, the US Supreme Court, which has already refused to hear the case on three separate occasions.
FYI: TJ over at Also Also has some nice analysis of the legal machinations behind the recent court rulings.
good post and comments GOldy, now you can bet that the WART brigade will be done your throat tooth and nail. They have no ideas of their own so they just go against anything you post here.
The whole Terri Schiavo national focus is more about the media, partisan politicians, and certain interest groups inflaming a horrible sitution, than a “Bush Administration” effort to shove something down folks throats.
If this is a culture war, it is because the media has made it one and the people have risen to the bait.
There are some very real and important societal issues that need to be debated about “death with dignity,” assisted suicide, living wills that are counter to family wishes, and modern medical care that can keep people alive. This case also has some interesting issues of regarding the “fiduciary” role of Terri’s husband in making decisions regarding his “wife” while Terri’s parents wishes are ignored.
Personally, if feel that this should be a family and local law issue.
It should not be hawked by folks as a “Bush Administration” issue. That in my book is partisan politics (or yellow blog journalism) on Goldies part, much like what the MSM is using to fan the flames of outrage.
There is no confusion on this issue, but that which takes it anywhere beyond the most basic concept.
The basic concept, that a person, has certain rights, that are inherent to them as an individual human being.
The right to not have their final wishes interpreted for them by an outside party, one of the most precious.
The only conceivable execution of responsibility, when the injured person is incapacitated, is the way the supreme court has determined, which all should agree.
1. spouse
2. children
3. parents
This is the most fair option, for concerned parties, when they choose to fight, rather than show a modicum of respect, to the person that needs them the most.
These people could have worked this out in house, but they chose the light of public scrutiny, which has turned this into the ultimate insult to what should have been a celebration of the memory of terri schiavo.
Instead, she’ll be remembered as a political pawn.
To say this isn’t an issue consistent with bush’s constitution stomping policies, belies the effects these neo fascists are having on this country.
The last wishes of a person, or the rights of her legal guardian, should not be compromised, for any reason.
A living will, could only supercede the guardians decision, if it differed from the will.
The lack of a living will, gives the decision squarely to the spouse.
Anybody who has been in a similar situation has no qualms about the Shiavo case. It’s politics clear and simple (DeLay’s recorded comments to the Family Research Council is yet another example).
“On thing that God has brought to us is Terry Schiavo, to help elevate the visibility of what’s going on in America,” DeLay said Friday. He also told the council that the Schiavo case was sent by heaven to focus attention on the helpless.
Is this what we want in American politicians?
Finally, if this were really about right to life…how can the death penalty be supported by the same folks?
Diggindude@3. Despite love for a child, making a side-show out of Terri I find to be disgracefull. I suspect their daughter would not want this nor want to be photographed in the state she is in. I am sure her parents are thinking more about their own feelings and loss than what may be Terri’s wishes. It is really a situation of Terri’s parents still wanting to run Terri’s life after she is of age, imposing their beliefs. In-law meddling, self-centered disputes over different beliefs, are not new to married couples. Overbearing mother-in-laws tales being familiar. Because Terri’s parents have said they would not agree with pulling the feeding tube even if it was Terri’s wishes says a lot. So, if they had their way, were in control of Terri still, their will would supercede Terri’s wishes to die rather than be let die. When we lose a loved one, it is our loss we can not deal with and weep over.
But Goldy, you can’t argue with the imaginary cloud being! If the imaginary cloud being wanted to fix her brain stem, she could, with a snap of her fingers! Pay no attention to those over-trained neurologists over there who say it is impossible. What do they know? Just because it has never happened before in recorded human history doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen now. Do those men of science know the imaginary cloud being? Certainly they do not!
5. ya. great husband and bad parents. shame on those meddling parents!!
I can’t disagree with your take on this too much, Goldy, but there is the simple fact of the husband. There are too many anecdotal statements out there that he refused treatment, nurses comments, restraining orders, etc. that makes this case different.
I say get an independent analysis. I followed the 2003 situation also and I am shocked the simple tests have not been taken. Why not, I ask?
With the lack of attention for the last ten years, it may be too late to reverse the problems, I admit.
As for the right ot life faction of the country, their vote was comlex. There was Reichert who doesn’t want the fed to interfere on State matters. But there was also the faction that heard the anecdotal information and believed them.
Unusual case merits an unusual solution and it ain’t starving.
Felixfermin@6. The days of walking on water? The imaginary cloud being theory better known as the puppetmaster theory, could have also prevented Terri’s potassium level from droping, thus preventing the stroke that destroyed portion of her cerebral coretex leaving Terri helplessly locked in an infirmed state of being. Now, would that be the angry God theory or the lovng God theory that pulled the string. Cryrogenic theory would be as far a cry as banking on a expecting a miracle of medical science or the cloud being theory to intervene. Fifteen years have passed. Where art thou? The real cloud being that people’s minds do not see their is no logic to the theory presented and are clouding a real life issue;not dealing with reality.
Yes, the loving husband who failed to mention Terri’s wishes until SEVEN -7- YEARS after the accident, which by the way just happened to be after the $2.2 million “settlement.” Hmmmm
Yet the hypocritical right to die group says “get yourself a living will in writing.” But why if only heresay is needed to convince a blind Judge?
And how dare we mention GOD in all this, afterall, there is a seperation of church and state, right? The libs response to the mere mention of GOD!!
And you so typically try to bing Republicans and Hitler when it is well documented the Republicans stand for LIFE, the living. It is now apparent that the LEFT is to be associated with the menegele practices. Anti death penalty, pro-abortion, animals have more rights than human beings. All verified by the ever so accurate, leftist ACLU.
Indeed liberalism is a mental disorder as they fail to show a soul.
Dr Cranford, the start witness for beelzabub, stated that Terri never had an MRI because, well, it was not brought up at the time and they would have had to take the “ward” to NY. Wow, an inconvenience, a similar belief to Hitler. Who’s next?
Felixfermin@6. Tongue in cheek.
The best solution at this point would be for the court to relieve Michael Schiavo as guardian, and appoint a guardian. There are too many questions about the husbands’s actions. Why these weren’t pursued by prosecutors will be left as a future question.
At this point, it should be obvious to the court that neither the parents nor the husband are clearly putting Terri’s interests first. The parents are far to caught up in the emotion and dramam of the last 15 years to any longer be able to make decisions that are best for Terri.
I don’t like the state stepping in in this manner, but given the facts of the case, it is appropriate. This happens all the time, for the state to take control of family decisions, when neither side is capable.
Should Terri be left to die? Probably, but it isn’t an easy choice, and it isn’t a painless choice. She will suffer. Unfortunately, the window of time has closed when the decision makes any difference. She might have benefitted from rehab 15 years ago, but was denied it by her husband. Now there is no hope.
chardonny@9. The past can not be fixed and in this case the probably the present can’t be fixed. Doubtfull an MRI would have changed the damage inflicted on her brain. More doubtfull is why the angry or loving “cloud being” post 6 speaks of allowed her potassium level to drop and send her into a stroke knowing she was a bulimic. Those who support the walking on water theory should wonder by now why the “cloud being” poster 6 speaks of has neglected for fifteen years to fix what the cloud being broke. If you want to cast blame start there.
JanetS@7. Well said.
You are right that this should never have been made a political issue. As usual, I think both sides are to blame for that. The “right to die” and “right to life” folks all jumped on the bandwagon and from there it was all downhill.
The real problem here is that this case isn’t typical for several reasons. First, are food and water really life support? Does this mean anyone who can’t feed themself should be allowed to die? Second, is Terri really PVS? While it is true nobody has ever come back from PVS there have been hundreds if not thousands of cases of incorrect diagnosis of PVS (usually figured out when the patient does partially recover). The appropriate tests have not even been done to determine if she is PVS. I’ve seen the video tapes of her “responding” – they are enough to make me question the diagnosis. Third, even though I believe a spouse should normally be the decision maker – in this case can we really believe that Michael Schiavo has Terri’s best interests at heart or do too many of his actions show that he has his own agenda? And finally, do we really KNOW what Terri wants? Seven years later and over a million dollars collected and Michael suddenly remembers that Terri doesn’t want to live? Sorry, but I’m not sure I believe that.
I see this as a very specific and individual case where the laws that normally work just fine for other cases just aren’t seeming to protect Terri.
I don’t know if Terri is PVS or not, I don’t know if she can be helped or not, I don’t know if she should live or not. I only know that I think there are too many unanswered questions and I think someone should get those answers while the answers still matter.
Rush@7. Bad husband, bad parents was not the point at all. Facts speak for themself, case of parental meddling. Congress also meddling. Stone throwing was not the issue either. Although that has going on for days here amongst those who believe Terrr’s husband is a bad bad bad husband and been called a murder and even accused of causing her stroke; ect ect ect.
VR@15. And I don’t know if her husband could have legally divorced Terri in the condition she was and is in. You can not get a divorce if your spouse has been diognosed mentally ill and is presently still hospitalized in an insitution. Noone seems to want to consider that and bash Terri’s husband for not doing so and living with a woman he is not married to. Live in relationships are common place and so is cheating on your wife. Whether we condone such or not, it is a fact of modern life. Puritanical went out the window long ago, no longer looked upon as a right or wrong except among those who follow another drummer.
Goldy….did you think Scott Peterson was innocent too? When you have a situation like this, where the husband stands to gain and the parents don’t…who are you going to believe? I am amazed that she has not been assigned an attorney, that the whole case has not been properly reviewed. This is a disabled woman we are talking about here. She is not terminal…all she has is a feeding tube.There are alot of disabled Americans with more than that [think Christopher Reeve] should we starve all of them to death too? And why? What makes her different than Christopher Reeve? She isn’t as “smart” anymore? Is that what we are going to start basing these decisions on?
For any of you that are trying to make this a partisan issue….it isn’t. It is a human issue. Think of the very last person you would ever trust ,or want, to be making these kinds of decisions for you……..how do you feel now? Maybe an ex wife Goldy that has a new squeeze and would love to get rid of you, gets to decide to starve you to death?
Janet – I’m not sure if you’ve read through the details of the case, but all of the 15+ judges who have reviewed this case have considered the evidence and ruled, consistently, in accordance with Michael Schiavo’s statements. He has not denied her a chance to recover, and he has not done anything against her wishes, or against the law. Any statement to the contrary is innuendo designed to unfairly impugn his character.
The courts appointed independent doctors, and the doctors at the time of her heart failure were acting independently. The state has had many chances to step in, and has done so (like appointing independent doctors). Every time the state steps in, they ultimately rule in favor of removing the feeding tube. The Supreme Court already ruled, in 1990, that removing a feeding tube is allowable under the same laws that allow the removale of breathing tubes, etc.
The tragedy is that her parents refuse to believe the truth. I would argue that the courts consistent rulings (including the most recent two federal rulings) bear that out. Terri Schiavo’s cerebral cortex was turned to fluid, eliminating any chance of recovery, within 15 minutes of her brain being deprived of oxygen 15 years ago. She will not suffer, because that part of her brain (along with much of the rest of it) has been completely destroyed. That’s horrible, and a tragedy, but it’s worse to keep her in this state and for Congress to intrude on this personal matter.
Let’s make this simple – This case has been ruled on, over and over. The courts have had more than 10 chances, over 15 years, to rule on every single piece of evidence the Shindler’s and the Schiavo’s have brought up (including all the speculation about Michael’s motives). They have consistently, overwhelmingly, ruled in Michael Schiavo’s favor, and against the Schinlders. Whether the issue is constitutional rights, religious freeding, feeding tube removal, PVS status, parents vs. spouse, etc. – the courts have ruled that the Shindler’s are wrong and Michael Schiavo is right.
This means there aren’t any unanswered questions except for those that aren’t interested in listening.
There are alot of disabled Americans with more than that [think Christopher Reeve] should we starve all of them to death too? And why? What makes her different than Christopher Reeve?
The Supreme Court has ruled, and upheld, the right of someone in a situation like Mr. Reeve to have his feeding and/or breathing tubes removed. So if he wanted to starve himself or expire due to lack of oxygen, that would be his right.
You may not agree with that, but the Supreme Court has allowed it, and there’s no getting around that as the law of the land.
This is why all of the courts in Florida have ruled against the Shindlers (not to mention all the settled issues about spousal rights).
So far, I’ve only seen two or three, that will make all the false accusations, and start rumors.
Same two or three, that spread rumors about gregoire cheating, dems all bad, liberls are mentally unstable, etc.
Seems the few that start all the phoney accusations, may actually be the problem in cases like this.
For an impartial summary of the legal issues and history of this case, see this page: http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html
I finally heard an honest liberal… moments ago one called the radio program I’m listening to and said, and I quote, “I want her to die because she has no right to live”.
While I abhor his point of view, while I cannot even fathom the depravity of someone actually believing that, I have to say I admire that he is honest enough with himself, with the world that he WILL SAY THE WORDS all the other liberals have studiously and cowardly avoided admitting.
Ahem, Duuuudester.
christmasghost@18. None of us have any proof. How a married couple feel about each other or what goes on between them we have no proof of. Terri’s husband moved on, his life has purpose too. No everyone is willing to give up their life for another. Many couples share the idea of moving on and have spoke of it in advance, not wanting to also handicap the one they love. Love is not selfishness. Children are born out of wedlock every second. Terris husband had two. He has a right to be a father. Was he griefing? Only his heart knows that! Scott Peterson case does not compare. What we do not know and what we surmise may be different than what Scott’s knows. He is on death row, waiting to be killed while in good health. Did I agree with the verdict? Yes. But, while making an issue out of sparing life, one must acknowledge sparing life is sparing life. Many lives have been lost by state santioned execution. With new forensic tech, we are being increasingly aware many were done without just cause. A life is life is a life.
Seems like a good site Crick… at a quick glance seems to be fairly unbiased and factual.
I read an interesting editorial this morning that posited the question about who should be making decisions in cases like this – and if the courts should make determinations based on the past relationship between loving spouses or current relationships.
What a mess. I pray none of us have to experience this, especially in such an ugly and public matter.
@24. Sounds like a Rossi. One person makes A DENT. Then it turns into millions. Least of that evidance is that one liberal is not enough evidance to make a dent, even though you were impressed. Doesn’t take much to impress some. Add to your skimpy math those stance Republicans who spoke out against and voted nay in the Schiavo case before Congress.
Bob @ 2
As I understand it, you’re blaming Goldy for Bush and the GOP congress exploiting this tragedy for political purposes?
Thats the wacko repub. way.
Throw some rumors out, then look for evidence to support them.
Dumpster divers.
Janet @ 12
There are no questions about the husband’s actions, only fantasies made up by right-wing partisans using their favorite weapons to get what they want — hate and lies.
my two cents here:
http://alsoalso.typepad.com/al.....it_de.html
I chose primarily to look at the legal decisions, since so much has been written about the social implications. From the reading, it looks like Congress and the Schindlers fucked themselves. Because Congress didn’t speak directly on whether they expected a stay to come as a matter of course, the appeals court saw a granting of discretion, which they could not fault the district court judge for using (and which by law, they were only allowed to review in terms of possible abuse of that discretion).
The family fucked themselves by misapplying the Congressional legislation. Congress wanted Whittemore to totally ignore the state rulings…but the family’s de novo claim was on federal due process violations. The problem with that of course, is that the judge was forced to review the state rulings, in order to evaluate the merits of the family’s claims. The family basically undercut Congress and requested that the court review the state process–instead of starting fresh with claims that would ordinarily be heard in state court.
I can’t see any more than three Justices wanting to take this on, which means the case, and Terri, are almost assuredly dead.
No hell hasn’t frozen over, but I actually agree that it is the husband’s right to make a decision for his wife that is now a vegetable. I don’t feel that a person in her state can actually get anything out of life, and I think even God understands that at this point.
CHEE @25..I agree with you that husbands and wives should have the right to decide these things themselves. but i think there is a glaring issue in this case that needs to be addressed. none of this was in writing…it is all on hearsay. a convicted murderer would have gotten more access to his legal rights.
you cannot assume that just because he was her husband that he had her best interests at heart. that’s what i meant about scott peterson. if all these cases lately where a husband has killed his wife don’t teach us anything else, we should at least learn from them that things are not always as they appear. if she had had therapy and an MRI and her wishes were in writing i would have no problem with this other than as a country i think we should be a little more ‘evolved’ than to starve/dyhrdate someone to death.
the case, btw, has not been reviewed by “all those judges”….it was heard by one and then the others just ruled on what he ruled on.
i am not comfortable with everyone wanting to kill someone[ who was a devout catholic…do you really think she had the views michael claimed she did?] just because she isn’t that smart anymore and on the hearsay of her less than loving husband. we have all had people that were sick and dying in our lives. i doubt if anyone here would scream “isn’t that bitch ever going to die?” at them. michael has not been vilified….he is a monster. read the sworn affadavits. and what do these people stand to gain? nothing. where michael stands to gain alot. he moved on in his life with another woman, that’s fine, so why doesn’t he give terri a divorce and butt out?
schindlers have asked for en banc from the 11th (ie to have the full court hear the appeal):
http://www.accessnorthga.com/n.....p?ID=57707
interesting choice. I think this just costs the family another day.
Adriel @ 32
Don’t feel like you’re acting out of character. The ABC poll I saw on Monday showed that even among evangelicals, opinion is completely split. Too many republicans and conservatives have been in the Schiavos’ situation to view it with partisan glasses, I think.
VR @ 15
The CAT scans showed this woman does not have a cerebral cortex. How much more testing is needed? What do you expect an MRI or other tests to show? The eye blinking and other reflexive movements you see on the videotapes are merely random nerve responses, like a tic or muscle twitch. This woman has no awareness of her existence or surroundings. How could she have, with her conscious brain gone?
and goldy….since you are now so worried about government intrusion i take it that your next post will be about how awful the CAO is?
The party of less gov’t intrusion……my ass.
Here is a good site for the Schiavo case:
http://abstractappeal.com/schi.....l#overview
TIMELINE:
December 1963… Terri’s birth date
November 1984… Terri & Michael marry
February 1990… Terri suffers cardiac arrest and a severe loss of oxygen to her brain
May 1990… Terri leaves hospital and is brought to a rehabiliation center for aggressive therapy
July 1990… Terri is brought to the home where her husband and parents live; after a few weeks, she is brought back to the rehabilitation center
November 1990… Terri is taken to California for experimental therapies
January 1991… Terri is returned to Florida and placed at a rehabilitation center in Brandon
July 1991… Terri is transfered to a skilled nursing facility where she receives aggressive physical therapy and speech therapy
May 1992… Michael and the Schindlers stop living together
January 1993… Michael recovers $1 million settlement for medical malpractice claim involving Terri’s care; jury had ruled in Michael’s favor on allegations Terri’s doctors failed to diagnose her bulimia, which led to her heart failure; case settled while on appeal
March 1994… Terri is transferred to a Largo nursing home
May 1998… Michael files petition for court to determine whether Terri’s feeding tube should be removed; Michael takes position that Terri would chose to remove the tube; Terri’s parents take position that Terri would chose not to remove the tube
February 2000… Following trial, Judge Greer rules that clear and convincing evidence shows Terri would chose not to receive life-prolonging medical care under her current circumstances (i.e., that she would chose to have the tube removed) [READ]
March 2000… Judge Greer denies petition for more swallowing tests, finds it uncontested Terri cannot swallow sufficiently to live [READ]
April 2000… Terri is transferred to a Hospice facility
January 2001… Second District Court of Appeal affirms the trial court’s decision regarding Terri’s wishes [READ]
April 23, 2001… Florida Supreme Court denies review of the Second District’s decision [READ]
April 23 or 24, 2001… Trial court orders feeding tube removed
April 24, 2001… Terri’s feeding tube is removed for the first time
April 26, 2001… Terri’s parents file motion asserting they have new evidence regarding Terri’s wishes
April 26, 2001… Trial court denies Terri’s parents’ motion as untimely
April 26, 2001… Terri’s parents file new legal action against Michael Schiavo and request that the removal of Terri’s feeding tube be enjoined; the case is randomly assigned to Judge Quesada
April 26, 2001… Judge Quesada grants the temporary injunction, orders Terri’s feeding tube restored
July 2001… Second District rules that Judge Greer erred in denying the motion alleging new evidence and, in essence, orders the trial court to consider whether new circumstances make enforcement of the original order inequitable; Second District also reverses the temporary injunction and orders dismissal of much of the new action filed before Judge Quesada [READ]
(uncertain)… Terri’s parents detail their reasons why enforcement is inequitable: (1) new witnesses have new information regarding Terri’s wishes, and (2) new medical treatment could sufficiently restore Terri’s cognitive functioning such that Terri would decide that, under those circumstances, she would continue life-prolonging measures; Terri’s parents also move to disqualify Judge Greer
(uncertain)… Trial court denies both motions as insufficient
October 2001… Second District affirms the denial of the motion to disqualify and the motion regarding the new witnesses; the appellate court reverses the order with regard to potential new medical treatments and orders a trial on that question with doctors testifying for both sides and a court-appointed independent doctor [READ]
March 2002… Florida Supreme Court denies review of the Second District’s decision [READ]
October 2002… Judge Greer holds a trial on the new medical treatment issue, hearing from doctors for both sides and a court-appointed independent doctor; Terri’s parents also assert that Terri is not in a persistent vegetative state
Schindlers file emergency motion for relief from judgment based on a 1991 bone scan report indicating Terri’s body had previously been subjected to trauma
November 22, 2002… Following trial, Judge Greer denies Schindlers’ motion for relief (new medical evidence motion), rules that no new treatment offers sufficient promise of improving Terri’s cognitive functioning and that Terri is, in fact, in a persistent vegetative state [READ]
November 22, 2002… On this same day, Judge Greer denies Schindlers’ emergency motion related to the 1991 bone scan [READ]
June 2003… Second District affirms the trial court’s decision denying Schindlers’ motion for relief from judgment [READ]
August 22, 2003… Florida Supreme Court denies review of the Second District’s decision [READ]
August 30, 2003… Terri’s parents file federal action challenging Florida’s laws on life-prolonging procedures as unconstitutional
September 17, 2003… Judge Greer denies Schindlers’ motion to provide additional therapy, finding it an effort to retry the issues that were previously tried [READ]
October 10, 2003… Federal court dismisses Schindlers’ case
October 15, 2003… Terri’s feeding tube is removed for the second time
October 20, 2003… Florida House passes a bill to permit the Governor to issue a stay in cases like Terri’s and restore her feeding tube
October 21, 2003… Federal court rejects injunction request
October 21, 2003… Florida House and Senate pass a bill known informally as “Terri’s Law” to permit the Governor to issue a stay in cases like Terri’s and restore her feeding tube [READ]; Governor signs the bill into law and immediately orders a stay; Terri is briefly hospitalized while her feeding tube is restored
October 21, 2003… Michael brings suit against the Governor, asking to enjoin the Governor’s stay on grounds “Terri’s Law” is unconstitutional; Judge Baird rejects Michael’s request for an immediate injunction, allowing the tube to be restored, and requests briefs on the constitutional arguments involving the new law
November 7, 2003… Judge Baird rejects Governor’s motion to dismiss Michael’s suit and have case litigated in Tallahassee
November 20, 2003… Judge Baird rejects Governor’s request for the judge to recuse himself
December 1, 2003… Guardian ad litem appointed under “Terri’s Law” to advise Governor submits report to Governor [READ]
December 10, 2003… Second District rejects Governor’s effort to have Judge Baird disqualified
April 2004… Second District affirms Judge Baird’s decision denying Governor’s motion to dismiss and have case litigated in Tallahassee [READ]
May 2004… Judge Baird declares “Terri’s Law” unconstitutional on numerous grounds [READ]
June 2004… Second District certifies “Terri’s Law” case directly to the Florida Supreme Court
July 2004… Schindlers file new motion for relief from judgment based on Pope John Paul II speech
September 2004… Florida Supreme Court affirms Judge Baird’s ruling that “Terri’s Law” is unconstitutional [READ]
October 2004… Judge Greer denies Schindlers’ most recent motion for relief from judgment (motion based on Pope John Paul II speech) [READ]
December 1, 2004… Governor asks U.S. Supreme Court to review Florida Supreme Court’s decision declaring “Terri’s Law” unconstitutional
December 29, 2004… Second District affirms (without written opinion) Judge Greer’s ruling denying Schindlers’ most recent motion for relief from judgment
January 6, 2005… Schindlers file new motion for relief from judgment, alleging Terri never had her own attorney, that the trial court impermissibly applied the law retroactively, and that the original trial on Terri’s wishes violated separation of powers principles
January 24, 2005… U.S. Supreme Court declines review in “Terri’s Law” case
February 11, 2005… Judge Greer denies Schindlers’ latest motion for relief from judgment (motion raising various due process challenges) [READ]
February 23, 2005… Florida’s Department of Children and Families asks to intervene and for 60-day stay to permit investigation of alleged abuse [READ]
February 23, 2005… Schindlers file motion requesting new tests to determine Terri’s status [READ]
February 25, 2005… Judge Greer rules motions appear endless, he will grant no further stays; sets March 18 date for removal of feeding tube [READ]
February 28, 2005… Schindlers file motion requesting that Terri be fed orally [READ]
March 2, 2005… Schindlers file new motion for relief from judgment, arguing factual error in original judgment [READ]
March 8, 2005… Judge Greer denies Schindlers’ motion to feed Terri orally [READ]
March 9, 2005… Judge Greer denies Schindlers’ motion requesting new tests [READ]
March 9, 2005… Judge Greer denies Schindlers’ most recent motion for relief from judgment (motion based on factual error) [READ]
March 10, 2005… Judge Greer denies Department of Children and Families request to intervene and for stay, finds agency is free to investigate [READ]
March 16, 2005… Second District affirms Judge Greer’s denial of Schindlers’ motion raising various due process challenges, emphasizes law has been followed in this case [READ]
March 18, 2005… Schindlers file new federal action arguing due process violations in original trial; case assigned to Judge Moody [READ]
March 18, 2005… Judge Moody denies new federal claim, citing lack of jurisdiction [READ]
March 18, 2005… Congressional committee issues subpoenas for Michael, Terri, and Terri’s caregivers to appear at hearing to be held at the hospice where Terri has stayed [READ]
March 18, 2005… Congressional committee files motion to intervene and modify order requiring the removal of Terri’s feeding tube
March 18, 2005… Judge Greer denies congressional committee motion, ruling no grounds exist for intervention
March 18, 2005… Congressional committee requests Florida Supreme Court and Second District stay the feeding tube’s removal [READ]
March 18, 2005… Terri’s feeding tube removed for the third time
March 18, 2005… Florida Supreme Court denies congressional committee request, citing lack of jurisdiction [READ]
March 18, 2005… Second District denies congressional committee request as without merit
March 21, 2005… Congress enacts Terri’s Law II, authorizing Terri’s parents to seek federal court review of whether Terri’s federal rights have been protected [READ]
March 21, 2005… Schindlers file new action in federal court based on new law, claiming Terri’s federal rights have been violated [READ]
March 22, 2005… Judge Whittemore denies Schindlers’ request to have Terri’s feeding tube reinserted, finding no substantial likelihood the Schindlers will succeed with their claims [READ]
March 23, 2005… In a 2-1 decision, Eleventh Circuit affirms Judge Whittemore’s decision not to restore Terri’s feeding tube [READ]
Chardonny@10. “How dare we mention God.” The book, “Ye Are Gods” explains it. If you believe that we “were created in God’s image, all females are men. The Prime Mover concept deletes that primitive sexism. The term God (whatever you propose this be) has an open-end as far as description goes. Term God means many things to many people. HAs meaning to many people. Has no meaning to many people. Has another meaning to those who take responsibility. That is why we are guaranteed freedom of religion and why it behooves governemnt to NOT be messing around mixing Church and State.
those people that accused him, were fired.
Fired for not doing their job, the way he wanted them to.
He yelled and screamed at them and now its payback time.
Why take the words of disgruntled employees over the husband?
After all, how many “disgruntled empoloyees” have murdered recently?
Funny, through all the “neglect” , terri didnt have one bed sore.
Funny, through 3 years of intensive therapy, they were all friends, then the settlements came in feb and all of a sudden, they were enemies?
The parents are on record, as saying they expected part of the settlement money.
They had a falling out, over the settlement money, the parents felt they were “OWED” it.
VR @ 15
“I only know that I think there are too many unanswered questions and I think someone should get those answers while the answers still matter.”
A dozen courts and dozens of judges have spent endless hours weighing detailed evidence from medical experts about this case, but there are “unanswered questions” in your mind because their “answers” are not what YOU want to hear. All the work done by doctors, lawyers, and judges is to be overruled by your mere personal opinion.
If this is how we’re going to run society, why bother to have medical schools, engineering schools, law schools, etc.? Why not build faith-based bridges and perform faith-based brain surgery instead of fooling around with stuff like mathematics and medical science? For that matter, why do we need bridges and surgical wards at all, when you righties can walk on water and cure with prayer?
George Orwell was not only off by 21 years, he also had NO idea what the Brave New World would actually be like.
TJ – I wouldn’t say the Schindler’s f*ed themselves. The only way the legislation had a chance of passing was that Congress took the requirement that the “Federal Court grant the TRO” wording out of the legislation. They knew that requiring the court to grant a TRO would violate the separation of powers.
I can’t find the link now, but there was a news article where they talk about the original legislation…
ghost @ 18
How do you know the parents aren’t making money off this? How do you know they didn’t create Terri’s condition by beating the crap out of her when she was a child?
(I just posted this so you people can see how silly you look.)
I find it hard to see how it’s any of the Government’s as well as Pres. Bush’s damn business or decision on any of this. Let the poor gal die in peace for God’s sake. Thanks.
“What makes her different than Christopher Reeve?”
How do you respond to someone who is either ignorant of, or willfully refuses to acknowledge, the difference between Reeve’s medical condition and Schiavo’s? Don’t waste your breath. You might as well be talking to a stump.
TJ – Here’s a link.
http://lawprofessors.typepad.c.....mprom.html
Chee @ 25
Why don’t wingy moralists ever say anything about Republicans who cheat on their wives? Is there hypocrisy going on here folks?
chew2 @ 39
What that timeline leaves out, is when the money was paid to michael, and when they had the falling out.
The money was awarded in 1992, but it was delivered to michael, in feb. of 1993. The parents, and michael. had their falling out, right after the money was awarde, in feb. 1993.
This is when the problems between them came to a head, when the father said he wanted 1/2 of the money.
The money was awarded, 300,000 to michael, and 700,000 to terri.
don….you are ,as usual, a jerk. what else is new? so what you are saying is that terri isn’t as important as reeve because her mental capacity isn’t as good? heard about the americans with disabilities act?
now he would have died if someone had pulled the plug. what is so different. her mental capacity is different but her physical condition is better than his was….so basically you are deciding that on the hearsay of a husband[chattel property anyone?] that she should die because she isn’t that smart anymore?
With all the attention the MSM has lavished on the Schiavo case, and with all the passionate debate in the recent open thread, I am stunned… absolutely stunned at the level of misinformation still being tossed about.
This case has been heard by 19 judges in six courts, and has been appealed to the Supreme Court three times… any yet you still raise questions about the facts… about the medical testimony and evidence as to whether she is really in a persistent vegetative state, and whether she has any hope of recovery? Are any of you better able to judge the evidence than all the judges that have actually heard it?
Chardonnay… your reason for doubt is that they never performed an MRI? CAT scans shown the bulk of her brain has dissolved and been replaced by spinal fluid. What the hell do you know about MRIs other than the initials?
And all you critics… your efforts to vilify the husband are nothing short of disgusting. Yes, there was a cash settlement. $300,000 was paid to Michael as compensation for “lack of consortium” the rest went into a medical expense trust that he had no control over, and has since been exhausted paying for her care. Her tab is now being paid mostly by Medicaid. (That’s right, taxpayer dollars are being spent to keep a dead woman’s body alive, against her wishes, while millions of American children go without basic health care.) There is no life insurance policy, he’s got nothing to gain monetarily, and in fact has turned down millions to hand over his medical power of attorney to the Schindlers.
As to his care for her, he spent the first four years, like her parents, believing beyond hope that she would recover. He flew her to California for an experimental procedure that implanted electrodes to stimulate her brain. He was so relentlessly demanding of her care facility that they considered seeking a restraining order against him, because they felt the staff was responding to his demands, to the detriment of the other patients. Eventually, he accepted reality, and gave up hope.
As to her personal wishes not to be kept alive by artificial means, they were corroborated by two other witnesses, and the courts have accepted this testimony as fact. But more important, this was the testimony of her husband, the man with whom she was most intimate, and that is enough. And… courts (and medical ethicists) have consistently ruled that feeding tubes are artificial life support, and thus may be morally, ethically, and legally removed in these situations.
This is all in the court records… the records of multiple courts, some of which appointed independent advocates on her behalf, who after research and observation have come to the same conclusion as Michael Schiavo. This case has been thoroughly reviewed, and adjudicated ad nauseam, and to pretend otherwise tells me that you are either misinformed, or intentionally misleading.
You don’t agree with the decision of the husband or the courts, fine. But don’t make up your own evidence.
There are no legal decisions left to make, only political ones. So finally, to attack me for politicizing the issue after the disgraceful actions of the Bush brothers and the rest of the Republican leadership, is to laugh. I’m merely calling things as they are.
Don @ 48
You mean like this?
http://www.americaheldhostile.com/cheating.html
jcricket @ 43
thanks for the link, but you’re mixing the two. I know that Congress sought to avoid any more trouble than they were biting off, by not directing the courts to issue the TRO.
My point about the Schindlers was that Congress authorized them to seek a brand new trial in federal court on the merits of the case—and the family opted to make a federal claim of due process, which could only be evaluated by recongizing the state process…which Congress specifically wanted them to ignore. I don’t know necessarily that they’d have prevailed using claims about Michael’s guardianship or the status of Terri’s PVS–but at least in that instance the courts could have followed Congress’ intent and ignored the state rulings. Once they brought a due process claim, the court had no choice but to review them.
christmasghost@35. I really don’t know. I can speculate that just because one or two or more nurse says this that more nurses will not. Sympathy runs deep and everyone does not speak what is true, seeing things they want to see. Or worst scenerio, lying to others, for others and to self also. People take oaths everu day in court and lie thru their teeth. That is a fact of life. Really, I do believe the medical professionals, the specialists in neuro and her doctors saw to do what they are bound to do by the Hipporatic Oath. Till proven otherwise, I would not assume all one hears to be true. Like I said in my post @ 17, I do not think her husband can divorce her and stated why. Rumors fly around in cases such as this and something tells me Terri’s case is shrouded in rumors. I saw a picture of her and her husband together. She was so beautiful and appeared to be a strong woman. Would not want to live this way? I can not speak for her, but in her face I saw something that said a lot about who she was.
The cloud-being has a name. It is,”SANTOR!” That’s with the exclamation point. To be on the safe side, always refer to Him(in a loud stage voice)as, “SANTOR!” These were the instructions I received in a dream. I hope someone else had the same dream.
Goldy @ 51
110% behind you here.
Diggindude. Right on the button. I recall that money issue.
goldy…so i take it that’s a no about you next bitching about the CAO….because you don’t want government in everyone’s business?
Also, 5 years “BEFORE” michael decided to pull the plug, is when the parents tried to get guardianship away from michael.
In july of 1993. Not too long after terri got her money.
Now it looks ugly.
The parents started all this over money.
Are they republicans?
@54. More dreamers. Cool. I will remember to SHOUT.
I’m suspicious of all the care givers coming out of the woodwork and now testifying about the behavior of Michael Schiavo.
First, there is confidentiality. If they hadn’t been fired before, they should be now for talking about someone in their care.
Second, if they had relevant information 10 years ago, why didn’t they pursue it then?
These people are publicity hogs, and I don’t put much stock in their stories.
Off topic, but just this once……
While bush’s neofascists have captivated everyone’s attention here with this diversion, bush is giving the country away to canada and mexico.
Don@48. Why Republicans don’t say Republicans cheat on their wives? Republicans know how to cover their tracks whne their ass is hanging out. They are THEE proper ones who undress while having sex. This makes them appear spotless and without stain. No stain, no shame.
So here we have a Republican hierarchy that, in the words of President Bush, “want to err on the side of life.”
This is the same President and the same Republican Party, that:
* Enthusiastically supports the death penalty
* Is strongly opposed to introduction of new evidence, like new DNA findings, in death penalty cases
* Is enthusiastic about having every American own as many guns as possible
* Demands in the new Federal Budget that Medicaid funding be cut, which if the cuts are effected, the National Academy of Sciences, says will cause 18,000 needless deaths a year in the US
* Signed legislation in Texas when he was governor that said a hospital could unilaterally take patients off life support if there were no funds to pay for the treatments
* Strongly object to potentially life saving new therapies like embryonic stem cell research because of unscientific religious bias
I could go on and on and I’m sure many of you could add to this list.
The Republican leadership could care less about Terri and the Schiavo/Schindler family tragedy, just as they could care less about pain and suffering of thousands of other Americans. They care only because they think there may be some political gain here for them.
Fortunately for America, they’re wrong as all of the polls show the vast majority of Americans — including Republicans — support the husband and the court decisions to allow poor Terri to finally end her suffering.
Janet@60. You have a point there. What happened to right to medical privacy. Certainly Terri did not release information. I presume by court order and walking through the court system much is public record. Should be sealed.
Nelson@63. What part of that don’t those who don’t want to understand understand? Plenty clear Nelson.
I like that, “no stain-no shame”.
funny
Michael Schiavo one if its most basic legal rights: the power to make medical decisions for an incapacitated spouse.>>>>
Do you think that his wife would want him making decisions on her behalf if she had been incapacitated yesterday, knowing he was living and having children with another woman?
The ABC poll I saw on Monday showed that even among evangelicals, opinion is completely split. -Comment by torridjoe— 3/23/05 @ 10:26 am
The ABC poll has been soundly rebuked, debunked, disavowed and laughed at because they framed the premise of the question on a lie.
Here is how the spinmasters framed the main poll question:
As you may know, a woman in Florida named Terri Schiavo suffered brain damage and has been on life support for 15 years. Doctors say she has no consciousness and her condition is irreversible. Her parents and her husband disagree on whether or not she should be kept on life support. In cases like this who do you think should have final say, (the parents) or (the spouse)?
A follow-up question asked:
If you were in this condition, would you want to be kept alive, or not?
“The problem is that, contrary to what ABC News told those polled, Terri Schiavo is not on “life support” and has never been on “life support.” The loaded phrase evokes images of a comatose patient being artificially sustained by myriad machines and pumps and wires. Terri was on a feeding tube. A feeding tube is not a ventilator. Terri can breathe just fine on her own.”
Furthermore, despite the fact that she may be NOW be unconscious since they have begun starving her, the fact of the matter is she was indeed conscious before.
Why do liberals support abortion and oppose the death penalty?
Seems a bit of a contradiction to me.
The case has not been heard by 19 judges, it has been declined to be heard by something like 15 of them. It’s hard to obtain accurate totals, but I believe about 4 judges have actually reviewed part of the evidence – any others have only reviewed court procedures or simply rejected the premise of a filing without reviewing the underlying case. Of the judges that did review the actual facts, 2 have ordered new reviews – which end up back in Judge Greer’s court. A quick look at the history in post #39 gives you an idea of the judicial “reviews” were about whether court procedure was properly followed not about the facts of the case. This is the difference between an appeal and a new trial.
I have found only one indication of a court appointed doctor (appointed by, guess who? Judge Greer) and two doctors chosen by Michael Schiavo. There are also a minimum of 50 neurologists (I hope that’s the right specialty) who say an MRI and a PET are absolutely necessary to determine PVS – a CAT scan just isn’t good enough. Many of those specialists have also reviewed video of Terri and believe she does follow objects visually and respond to directions. I have no knowledge which allows me to evaluate the opinions of these specialists – I only know what they say. Also, someone mentioned that she has never had bedsores.. that is a claim by Mr. Schiavo, but other testimony says different – so much of this case is who you believe. We all need to keep clear what are facts and what are claims and weigh the two differently.
I don’t believe Mr. Schiavo’s having a girlfriend and children means that he no longer cares for Terri or that it sould automatically disqualify him to make decisions. I’m more concerned about the decisions he has made about her care and the claims (with some evidence) that his attitude has been far from loving.
My remaining questions are mostly why not. Why not have an MRI to be more confident of the diagnosis? Why not have another swallow test (none since 1992, I believe)? Why not make sure we know all the facts before she dies? If Terri really is PVS it doesn’t make a damn bit of difference to her what anyone does.
I am a simple guy and certainly not a medical doctor, so take this for exactly what it is worth.
1. No one has ever recovered from her condidtion.
2. Her brain has pretty much liquified.
This woman is already dead. To be alive means more then a simple heart beat. If medical science progresses someday to the point when a body can be kept alive without a brain, is that life? For me, no.
And I am disgusted that anyone would turn this into a political matter. This is a horrible personal tradgedy that I would not wish on anyone. It is worse that the family can not agree. I can’t even begin to imagine the emotional damage inflicted on everyone involved, but the fact that the right-wing personal attack machine is going after the husband whose primary sin seems to be that he clung onto hoping for a miracle slightly less then his in-laws just makes me sick.
Nindid@70. Well put.
anon @ 68
courts have consistently ruled that a feeding tube is equivalent to life support. She can’t swallow on her own, so without outside help she would starve. There is no factual misstatement in the polling question.
You misunderstand the word “consciousness” to mean “awake.” The usage of the word is to denote that she has no higher brain functions. She does not think, in other words, and has no abstract sense of self. Again, there is no factual misstatement.
And what to make of the several other polls that echo each other?
chuck @67
Are you seriously suggesting that Michael would have another woman and children even if he had been married to a healthy Terri until yesterday? :rolleyes:
More and more spin, and accusations, these idiots wont quit.
Making shit up makes your argument more believeable.
angryvoter @ 69 says: “Why do liberals support abortion and oppose the death penalty?
Seems a bit of a contradiction to me.”
Because one is a viable life; the other is not. No contradiction there at all.
However, in the Rs, case supporting life at all times, except for 1) death penalty 2) blowing away a robber, the contradiction is very very clear.
well for all of you that think michael is the best person to decide when his wife should die..what can i say? there are enough questions about his motives to at least re-examine her case.
next time you rent a movie be sure to rent “sleeping with the enemy”………
it’s sad that all lefties want to use terri as political ploy. i think we will all remember that the next time one of your pet projects comes up that will create another situation like this.
the law of unintended consequences seems to be a way of life for all of you……..
No Jim I’m sorry you are just dumb! Killing a baby for doing nothing more than wanting to live is not better than killing a criminal that has in fact proved to be violent and taken others lives. Try getting your head examined if you believe the dog crap that is rolling out of your mouth.
agitated citizen @69
Real people are all over the map on abortion, liberals and conservatives. But let me ask you this, why not support an abortion for the case Goldy mentioned above? The fetus is already dead. It has no brain. Do you really want to condemn the mother to carrying her dead fetus for the up to a year or more? The humane, ethical and spiritual thing to do is to allow the husband and the wife to move on after the tragedy and not to inflict more damage.
Someone up thread brought up Catholic theology and how Terry Schivo could never have wished not to be kept alive on machines for fifteen years because of it. This is non-sense. For one, Catholics are as individual about this as anyone else.
Secondly, Catholic theology has always recognized a distinction between the body and the spirit. It is quite possible to have your body harmed/corrupted/destroyed and not harm your soul. The two are distinct. I can only pray that Terry has been spared the torture of having to suffer through fifteen years and that a merciful god has already taken care of her.
Culture Wars? What Culture Wars?
http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBI.....index.html
Our country is in serious, serious trouble. As Brad DeLong says:
Dean Esmay likes to quote John Stuart Mill: “Lord, enlighten thou our enemies… sharpen their wits, give acuteness to their perceptions and consecutiveness and clearness to their reasoning powers. We are in danger from their folly, not from their wisdom: their weakness is what fills us with apprehension, not their strength.” A poor and stupid right wing is a dangerous menace–to us as well as to itself.
http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/
Xmas Idiot @75: “all lefties want to use terri as political ploy”.
That is exactly backwards. It was the religious right that bounced this issue into the political arena of the U.S. Congress.
Xmas @ 75
“it’s sad that all lefties want to use terri as political ploy.”
Did Frist, Hastert and DeLay switch parties and I missed it?
Whether we think Michael is the best person or not is irrelevant. It is the LAW. Defend the sanctity of marriage, how about?
Adriel @ 76:
A zygot is not a baby.
>>Do you think that his wife would want him making decisions on her behalf if she had been incapacitated yesterday, knowing he was living and having children with another woman?<< I can not speak for Terry, but I will speak for myself. If I am brain dead for fifteen years I pray that my wife will move on with her life, find love and have kids with another man. She deserves whatever happiness she can find in this life and I would want her to be happy because I love her. I don't know her, but I imagine Terry would feel the same as would anyone who truly loved their mate. To do otherwise would be almost unimaginably selfish.
Terri Schiavo is probably going to die this week.
The question we have to answer – ok NOT have to answer, but probably should consider, is in who’s time?
Is she going to die in Michaels time? The courts? Her parents?
Granted Seattle is majorly secular in its collective views, but the rest of the country and the rest of the world do believe in God, in one form or another.
Perhaps, despite her parents machinations, despite Michaels machinations and despite the courts machinations, Terri is going to die on God’s time.
I’m driving across the county to Burien today. If I purposely swerve into a bridge abuttment, is it my decision or my “pre-determined time? Same thing if I’m hit by a drunk driver, or those children purposefully killed in Minnesota.
Should Terri indeed die this week, the singular most important week in Christianity, perhaps that is her purpose. Perhaps that is why THIS CASE, THIS WOMAN is in in the forefront of our news, our writings, our discussions.
Perhaps her purpose in life is to make the rest of US think, make the rest of US examine our hearts, our beliefs, our values. We certainly are here in this forum. I have with my husband and one of my children in my kitchen. It’s certainly is all over TV, radio, the net, even my snail mail.
There is no one sized fits all answer, but there is an answer for EACH of us… and just maybe that is/was the purpose of Terri’s life. To make us individually and collectively answer the hard questions about what kind of humans we want to be, what kind of society we want to be, what our values are.
I’m not foolish enough to think I am going to infuence anyone here in this matter, but I am grateful to Terri for having been forced to really examine MY beliefs and the foundation that led me to reaffirm them.
Ghost @75
I can’t believe that you could post this with a straight face! “it’s sad that all lefties want to use terri as political ploy.”
It’s only the FAR RIGHT WING REPUBLICAN RELIGIOUS NUTS who turned it into a political ply. The so-called “lefties” never raised a hand or an issue in the case. It started with the Christian right religious characters turning Jeb Bush into political mush and forcing the Fla. Republican Party to get into the act. No Democrat ever got involved here. Brother Jeb later got Brother George and halfbrain Brother Tom DeLay to take up the cause. Again, no Democrats were involved at all. So get with the program and put the blame where it correctly belongs: The Republican hierarchy that genuflects at the knees of a handful of religious zealots.
Second, in your post you stated: “well for all of you that think michael is the best person to decide when his wife should die..what can i say? there are enough questions about his motives to at least re-examine her case.”
Since some THREE DOZEN state and Federal judges, from a low-level Florida family court judge to the NINE JUSTICES of the US Supreme Court, ALL said the husband is INDEED the best person to decide, the answer to your pleading “what can I say,” is, simply, tell it to the judge — they’ve all agreed with the husband.
Give up the ghost, Ghost, you’re totally wrongheaded on this one.
I agree–the case has certainly made people think “what if that were me?” And that’s good, since it will likely spur many of them (myself included) to make some declaration of their intent.
Hopefully the purpose of Terri’s life will be to preserve the right of the individual to self-determine.
chuck @67
Are you seriously suggesting that Michael would have another woman and children even if he had been married to a healthy Terri until yesterday?
I can not speak for Terry, but I will speak for myself. If I am brain dead for fifteen years I pray that my wife will move on with her life, find love and have kids with another man. She deserves whatever happiness she can find in this life and I would want her to be happy because I love her.
I don’t know her, but I imagine Terry would feel the same as would anyone who truly loved their mate. To do otherwise would not be unimaginably selfish.
for all of you that think the right is making political hay out of this…are you kidding? have you seen the polls? it’s more like political suicide. but then…i wouldn’t expect any of you to understand doing something JUST BECAUSE IT IS RIGHT….and there is nothing to gain for yourselves in it.
IF terri had put her wishes in writing i would be all for it, as long as we are not starving/dyhrating people to death. we need to step up to the plate as a culture and embrace humane euthanasia for those who want it.
as i said before…..for all of you that want to take michael’s say so on this…pick the person you trust the least in your own lives and then put yourself in terri’s position with THAT person holding control over your very life.
can any of you even do that little mental exercise?
ghost–no fewer than FIVE people, including her own mother, testified as to statements made by Terri regarding either support for someone else, or on her own behalf. There’s no reason to rely solely on Michaal; clear and convincing evidence was presented that Terri herself wanted to die in this situation. SHE is the one that is being denied control.
joe…aren’t we setting a terrible precedence with this? there is nothing in writing…it’s all hearsay. what’s next?
have you looked at and compared pictures of terri just a couple of years after her ‘accident’ and today? it’s interesting that a ‘vegetable’ was sitting up and looking around huh?
why not err on the safe side here? take her into protective custody and re-examine her case thoroughly, and medically. not he said, she said………..
what happens to her could happen to any of us and just remember what i said about picking the person you trust the least to make that decision. if you were unconcious we could all say you said this and that…….when you didn’t. don’t you find that a chilling precedent to set?
New Ruling!
It has just come over the wires that the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals voted 10-2 to DENY the Schindler’s appeal.
That’s 10 out of 12 Federeal judges on one of the most conservative Federal Appeals Court Circuits voting against the Republican religious nuts.
There’s hope for America yet…
vegetables sit up and look around. Those are lower brain functions.
Why deny her her rights on the basis of no competing evidence? Let her go.
Terrible precedent for what? What’s wrong with hearsay, as long as it meets the clear and convincing threshhold?
En banc rejected the appeal moments ago, by the way. One last stop before she gets her due.
“if you were unconcious we could all say you said this and that…….when you didn’t. don’t you find that a chilling precedent to set?
Comment by christmasghost”
Kinda like what youre doing now about michael schiavo, right?
“En banc rejected the appeal moments ago, by the way. One last stop before she gets her due.”
joe…..you speak as if she were a criminal. marrying badly should not be a capitol offense.before she gets her due? that is one of the sickest things i have ever read…………
no wonder you are a trough feeding attorney if you think going on hearsay is okay………..
Her “due” is to be allowed to die in peace.
You are an idiot.
digger….i deal in facts. i don’t know if he was an abusive husband but i think that anyone that would say something like “isn’t that bitch ever going to die?” is more than a little suspect.
have you pointed out to everyone here that in your world you would also like to get rid of all gays, and you think indians are a bunch of loser moochers? do your new friends know who they are really playing with?
get a job you parasite…….
No ghost, I speak as if she is someone who has been denied her rights for 5 years now. She is due her Constitutional rights. It appears she is quite close to receiving them. And for that we can be sorrowful, but grateful that our country and the rule of law seeks to protect her interests.
and I’m not an attorney. ??
aaron…thank you so much for speaking for joe. so you two are sharing a brain now?
“get her due”………
yet another freudian slip thanks to the far left wingnuts…….
cause if she lives the next thing you know they will be calling a fetus a baby.
you guys are the poster children for the law of unintended consequences………..
may it happen to all of you someday……….since you don’t seem to have a problem with it.
Aaron @ 80
You abort Fetuses not Zygotes, know your facts. I believe that if the fetus tries tries to swim away from the device coming to kill it, as is the fact in studies I’ve read about then the fetus would prove to be alive and therefore MURDER!
Rumormonger @ 92
You must be feeling the crush of reality coming down around you, thats usually when you go off on a tangent.
Did you forget?
This IS the forum where you last spun out, all the same people are still here.
We’ve all seen you baseless attacks, and mindless accusations.
You have started more rumors, than the national enquirer.
Im just glad I can share your flame out with good company.
Are we going to start a tattle tale contest again, because once more you have been proven a world class rumor monger?
Christmas “a” hole @ anywhere
You must be referring to when I said indian artifacts should be moved, so we could use the ground they were found on.
I saw the irony in moving white people out of their final resting place, as opposed to native americans hunting tools needing to remain where they were found, no matter the cost.
Is this where I called them “moochers”?
More lies and false accusations I’m afraid.
digger….or should we just cut and paste somemore of your bigoted, racist statements? hmmm….what a quandry………
Thats right up your alley.
Torrid @94
You dont say.
no, I do say. I’ve never intimated that I was one.
Jim @74
Who are you to decide what is “viable” or not? Do you assume to be the supreme power of the universe (no I am not pushing that theory), but by your rationale, you claim to be.
And yes, line up criminals that have been sentenced to die and shoot them by the hundreds. The basic difference is that they had their chance and blew it, that baby has not.
Torrid @ 102
One would never guess it, given your in depth legal analysis on the various issues.
ghost @ 50
No, I’m saying she’s dead. Her mental capacity isn’t “different,” it’s absent. How can you have a mental capacity without a cerebral cortex? She doesn’t even know she exists. Her mind is as ephemeral as, umm, a ghost’s.
Diggin @ 52
Yup, that’s what I mean. Republicans don’t limit their cheating to business or elections.
ghost @ 57
EVERYONE has restrictions on their land use. NO ONE can do whatever they want on their property. It’s been that way for 200 years.
Chee @ 62
Reminds me of a joke about two Republicans having sex. The man suddenly asks, “Oh! Did I hurt you, dear?” The woman replies, “No, why do you ask?” The man says, “You moved.”
Chuck @ 67
Do you think you’d be able to think more logically if a piece of the sky hadn’t fallen and hit you on the head?
christmasghost@50:
so what you are saying is that terri isn’t as important as reeve because her mental capacity isn’t as good? heard about the americans with disabilities act?
* sigh *
By saying “mental capacity isn’t as good” you are doing a horrendous bending of the truth. PVS does not mean that she scored a few points lower than Reeve on an IQ test. It doesn’t mean that she’s Forrest Gump and as such a good 50 or 60 points below. If that were the case, you could go somewhere with this argument.
There’s nothing there. There is no ability to respond to any stimuli whatsoever. Basic questions that I can ask my two year-old like “are you hungry?” “do you want to sleep?” “how are you?” “do you know that’s a bad thing to do?”… All these are completely impossible for her to answer.
This is a very basic legal principle. We deny certain rights (marriage and other contracts) to profoundly retarded people because they are not capable of being cognizant of their actions.
If you want to sit here and spin a fantasy that PVS is just a “difference” like blue eyes or being able to walk, feel free to do so, but other than providing us all with some light humor on a sunny afternoon, your argument is without merit.
i just think that this whole thing with terri is so sad and can you imagine being her parents? and knowing your daughter was starving/dehydrating to death slowly?
and all on hearsay………..
anon @ 69
“Furthermore, despite the fact that she may be NOW be unconscious since they have begun starving her, the fact of the matter is she was indeed conscious before.”
Either all the doctors are lying — or you are.
Diggin @ 75
“Making shit up makes your argument more believeable.”
No it doesn’t. It just makes them more even obnoxious than they already are.
ghost @ 77
“well for all of you that think michael is the best person to decide when his wife should die..what can i say?”
Michael didn’t decide. Under Florida law, his role as guardian is limited to bringing the issue before the court. The law considers her a ward of the court, and the judge — not Michael — makes the decision. But don’t let facts get in the way of your argument. We wouldn’t want you to suddenly get logical on us.
angry @ 109
thanks for what I’ll take as a compliment.
anon @ 85
The first intelligent thing you’ve ever said. Now – why can’t you understand that everyone else does not necessarily share your religious or political views?
don @ 18
sarcasm intended
lol!
“if you were unconcious we could all say you said this and that…….when you didn’t. don’t you find that a chilling precedent to set?
Comment by christmasghost
If I’m PVS, don’t worry about what I said, just pull the goddam plug already.
TJ @ 99
I think she’s confusing you with me. Just like she routinely confuses lies with facts.
ghost @ 100
“may it happen to all of you someday……….since you don’t seem to have a problem with it.”
Speaking of sick … now this IS sick. Somebody wash her mouth out with soap.
For anyone who would like further information about the facts of the case, before making up his or her mind, attached is a link to the court-appointed guardian ad litem’s report to the Governor and the Court from late 2003. It contains a good summary of past treatment, arguments pro and con, and tactics of the parties. Here is the GAL’s conclusion:
The GAL concludes from the medical records and consultations with medical experts that the scope and weight of the medical information within the file concerning Theresa Schiavo consists of competent, well documented information that she is in a persistent vegetative state with no likelihood of improvement, and that the neurological and speech pathology evidence in the file support the contention that she cannot take oral nutrition or hydration and cannot consciously interact with her environment. The GAL concludes that the trier of fact and the evidence that served as the basis for the decisions regarding Theresa Schiavo were firmly grounded within Florida statutory and case law, which clearly and unequivocally provide for the removal of artificial nutrition in cases of persistent vegetative states, where there is no advance directive, through substituted/proxy judgment of the guardian and/or the court as guardian, and with the use of evidence regarding the medical condition and the intent of the parties that was deemed, by the trier of fact to be clear and convincing.
Here is the link: http://jb-williams.com/ts-report-12-03.htm
what about people like you don that have never had an original thought and have absolutely NO COMPASSION? in my book that makes you next in line…..you are way too flawed to live. and what about digger? he never works…he IS your tax dollars at work……
goldy @ 51
basically what you are saying is that YOU know more about the facts than the conservatives. You have this talent to decifer fact from fiction better than we do. OK! we’ll just take your word for it.
what’s next goldy, more deleting posts, censorship of this “language of conflict” (to quote Julia Patterson)?
How arrogant.
chardonnay@128:
basically what you are saying is that YOU know more about the facts than the conservatives
If we use the reality basis of the conservatives of HA (NOT all conservatives!), we are, admittedly, forced to ponder this possibility.
127, 128
Looks like xmasidiot and white whine have run out of brain farts and are down to their last-ditch personal attacks now.
Ghost~
I think we all have compassion for what this family is going through. I have immense compassion and empathy for the Schindlers. Their daughter has been essentially dead for 15 years and they have clung to false hope after false hope that she was still in there somewhere. They have been lied to by charlatan after charlatan, hoping to capitalize on their misfortune. I feel immense compassion for Michael Schiavo, whose wife has been essentially dead for 15 years and who has had to make decisions that each of us hopes we never have to make. Terri Schiavo is not a functioning human being. Her involuntary systems respond to stimuli. In the judge’s findings of fact, he watched the Schindlers’ doctor make requests to Terri for over an hour–over 100 commands. There was an apparent response to one command. She has no voluntary brain function. Let her go.
Chardonnay @ 128. I suggest you read the GAL’s report. Goldy obviously has. See 126 for link.
steven…….does it not bother you in the least that her “wishes” are complete hearsay?
but thank you for at least thinking about it….. do i think the judges have really reviewed the case? no…i read all the filings. they have just been reviewing what the first judge looked at.
and you know….doctors are often wrong. they didn’t my my son a chance either and now he is a physics major in college.
but i am done here….this place is a waste of time……
130. don: glad YOU never make personal attacks. reread your post. NICE.
ghost @ 133
“but i am done here….this place is a waste of time……”
Hooray! Come back when you’re ready to discuss things like an adult.
Don,
As the origianl personal attack artist, you should know it when you see it. Pot, kettle, kettle, pot.
christmasghost@16. Yes…it is a sad issue. The saying, “if you love someone let them go,” is easier said than done. I have no reason to believe Terri’s husband was not a heartless man a psychopathic. No one has proven him to be emotionally unstable, lacking in sound judgement, perverse, impulsive (often criminal), unable to learn from past experiance, amoral, asocial, psychotic and other serious personality defects. Terri chose to love this man, be with him, marry him and I would have to assume he also felt the same about her. It doesn’t take courage to let someone slowly rot away. Having to make that hard decision to allow someone you have loved to go, relinquishing hope and the memories of good times and joys once shared and also those normal bad times couple shared before the tragic event struck both their lives. I am certain both suffered. I doubt very much if Terri would paint her husband as some have chosen to.
1) The case has not been reviewed by 19 judges, not even close. I believe the correct number is 4, although that might not be exact, it’s hard to find verifiable facts. Two of the judges that did review evidence ordered additional hearings… that ended up back in Judge Greer’s court. Almost all of the other court actions have been appeals – requests for a review of court procedure, not a review of the case facts. Many of the court actions were simply denials of requests to review court procedures. The only time the facts are judged again is in a new trial. The actual judgements entered have been overwhelmingly those of Judge Greer.
2) There is no consensus of medical opinion that Terri is PVS and beyond rehabilitation. Two doctors hired by Michael and one court appointed (by guess who… Judge Greer) testified she is PVS. At least 50 neurologists (I think that’s the right specialty) have signed depositions that the diagnosis of PVS should not be made on the basis of a CAT scan and that an MRI and a PET are necessary to even attempt it. Many of those have reviewed tape of Terri and believe that she is capable of visual tracking and responding to verbal instructions and that rehabilitation is possible.
3) While you may believe every word Michael speaks, I think you can all understand if some people don’t. I don’t think the fiancee proves that he doesn’t care about Terri. I’m more concerned about his overall attitudes. I personally think he’s got his own agenda.
The questions I have are mostly “why not”. Why not have an MRI to be more clear on the diagnosis? Why not have another swallow test (none since 1992)? Why not make absolutely sure this the correct course?
For those who say it’s not fair to Terri and denies her rights… think about it… if she really is PVS she doesn’t even know what happens to her, she won’t care if we kept her alive a bit longer.
@127. The conclusion you draw because Don differs does not mean he or anyone else that differs is void of compassion. About original thought, noone has the corner on that market not even Mr Cynical.
VR@138. Could you provide some documentaion and or links to your medical evaluation under (2) of your post. Seems a bit contray to what has been aired already.
Chardonnay @128,
Actually, I’m implying that you are purposely twisting the facts. How’s that for arrogance? The fact is, the evidence is not in dispute, no matter how much you say it is. The courts have reviewed this case in detail, and have ordered removal of the feeding tube, in full accordance with Florida state law. You may believe that the law should not allow for denial of food and water under these circumstances. But it does.
And yeah, right… I’m a big scary censor. There is only one person here who has his posts held for approval, and that is because he is chronically and maliciously off-topic. If you don’t like it here, you are welcome to hang out at the purified sanctuary of the sanctimonious that is (u)SP.
VR.138. Please share the hidden proof about Michael, his secret agenda and any other candlestein smut you may have found out. Waiting with baited breath. Post reply to Ms. Blue, I’m holding my breath.
angryvoter @ 108
As before, you have it 180 degrees wrong. It’s the anti-abortion crusaders who claim to know God’s will — and be the instrument for God’s plan.
As for viablilty — this isn’t a supreme being thing. This is science…can the baby live outside the womb. Kinda medically deterministic.
You say: “And yes, line up criminals that have been sentenced to die and shoot them by the hundreds. The basic difference is that they had their chance and blew it, that baby has not.”
And are you invoking supreme knowledge that they are 100% guilty? Must be….
And by “blowing a chance” you deserve to die? Very hard to understand that logic from a right to lifer. Guess some lives are better than others? Doesn’t quite fit with your beliefs, does it?
Good thing you’ve never blown any chances….
One thing for sure..you are ANGRY and are proud of it! Time to get past the anger and 1) say reasonable things and 2) be constructive.
torridjoe@74
you say “She can’t swallow on her own”, this is pure conjecture on your part because her husband refuses to allow the test to determine whether she can swallow. Dont interject fantasy to support your view.
VR @ 138
Just because a judge does not try fact, doesn’t mean there hasn’t been a review. Her case has been reviewed by well over a dozen different judges.
As for PVS–
http://abstractappeal.com/schi.....r11-02.txt
While both Schindler doctors denied she was PVS, one of those (Hammersfehr) is of suspect credibility, given his discplinary action by the Florida Medical Board, his apparent lie that he was nominated for a Nobel Prize, and the lack of documentation to support some of his more outrageous claims (that he’s had success with patients worse than Terri, for instance).
The other three doctors agreed she was PVS, with one even calling it “permanent” to denote the irreversibility. Additionally, based on video evidence reviewed at trial, the evidence for PVS was deemed “overwhelming.” NONE of the doctors you refer to have ever examined Terri.
It’s not about Michael’s words, it’s about Terri’s. She’s told FIVE people her feelings on being kept alive by artificial means, and at least THREE people that she personally would not want it done for her.
The reason “why not” is there is no legal basis to do so.
PS according to Abstract Appeal, Greer has denied the attempt to place her into protective custody.
adriel @ 78 says:
“No Jim I’m sorry you are just dumb! Killing a baby for doing nothing more than wanting to live is not better than killing a criminal that has in fact proved to be violent and taken others lives. Try getting your head examined if you believe the dog crap that is rolling out of your mouth.”
1. Personal insults are part of God’s plan too?
2. Viable is what i said … able to live outside the womb. Geez, at least rail about things that are said…not things living in your mind.
3. A 30-day fetus “wanting to live?”. How about a convicted felon who “wants to live”? Why kill him then? Get consistent in your arguments, please.
GOLDY@141. Your typing key stuck? Didn’t you mean to type putrified sancturay instead of “purified:.
nindid@88
If she did I would expect your wife to have the decency to divorce you before making another family…leave that part of life behind in better hands instead of asking calling nurses if she is dead yet…
CHUCK.. Read the reports. Terri can not be fed or eat orally as we can.
chuck @ 144
uh, what? No. Try again:
http://abstractappeal.com/schi.....er0300.pdf
“The uncontroverted evidence from Dr. Barnhill was that the ward had been administered swallowing tests in 1990, 1991, and 1992…there was no swallowing reflex initiated and that the liquid went nowhere. Thereafter, and annually from 1993 through 1996 or 1997, the ward had a speech pathologist examine her and the finding was that she could not be rehabilitated in this regard and that there was a high risk of aspiration.”
Jeesus. At least TRY to work from the factual record.
chuck @ 148
more nonsense from you. Let me guess–your regurgitation of what you heard on Fox is from the nurse who not even the Schindlers are willing to use as a witness, right?
chuck@48. Please inform me as to what law allows him to divorce her. Oh yah…I dumb of me to forgot. I got it. The process server will serve the legally filed divorce papers of Mr on Mr. who is the guardian of the Mrs. How sweet that would be. That is why they are still married.
Geez tj, I thought you weren’t going to get involved in this issue. Once again you are providing extremely detailed information.
I wasn’t aware that she told 3 to 5 people of her wishes. Greta never mentioned it last night, either.
swatter @ 153
I never said that. I said it was fruitless to try to keep up with every single update of the case, so I won’t bother.
As for how many people she told, I guess that’s a good example of why you don’t trust your knowledge of the facts to Greta.
torridjoe@150
“In 1998 she was seen for ten minutes by Dr. James Barnhill who testified she had no chance for recovery and was in a persistent vegetative state. Unfortunately Judge George Greer persists in ruling that many later and more intensive evaluations are irrelevant.”
http://66.195.16.55/bio724.html
Chuck@151. If a person in the condition spoken of gets any liquid or food into their lungs due to swallowing problems just as in Parkinson patients, they can choke to death or die of pneumonia. This fact of life is not new to hospitals or nursing professionals. Long term care centers know the risks also. Swallow that. Digest well. It is the truth.
Once again, as I stated, her husband refused the test…the ACTUAL test
By the way I havent watced FOX in a bit, most of my news lately seems to be from NWCN
chuck @ 155
what on earth does that have to do with the 5 doctors who evaulated her in 2001? Nothing, that I can tell.
@ 157
the “actual” test? What ARE you talking about? She was tested EVERY FUCKING YEAR FOR SIX YEARS. She has not improved.
@ 158
so what is the source for your assertion of comments made by Michael Schiavo to a nurse?
torridjoe@150. Yah..hit wrong post number meant it for Chuck. Anyhow..I agree with what your trying to get across. Preach on.
Impression:
The patient is not in coma.
She is alert and responsive to her environment. She responds to specific
people best. She tries to please others by doing activities for which she gets verbal
praise. She responds negatively to poor tone of voice. She responds to music.
She differentiates sounds from voices.
She differentiates specific people’s voices from others.
She differentiates music from stray sound.
She attempts to verbalize.
She has voluntary control over multiple extremities
She can swallow.
She is partially blind
She is probably aphasic and has a degree of receptive aphasia.
She can feel pain.
On this last point, it is interesting to observe that the records from Hospice
show frequent medication administered for pain by staff.
http://www.terrisfight.org/doc.....hrexam.htm
Chuck @ 161
You live in a fantasy world.
Here’s the source: From National Review Online
http://www.nationalreview.com/.....160848.asp
QUOTE:
I have spent the past ten days recruiting and interviewing neurologists who are willing to come forward and offer affidavits or declarations concerning new testing and examinations for Terri. In addition to the 15 neurologists’ affidavits Gibbs had in time to present in court, I have commitments from over 30 others who are willing to testify that Terri should have new and additional testing, and new examinations by unbiased neurologists. Almost 50 neurologists all say the same thing: Terri should be reevaluated, Terri should be reexamined, and there are grave doubts as to the accuracy of Terri’s diagnosis of PVS. All of these neurologists are board-certified; a number of them are fellows of the prestigious American Academy of Neurology; several are professors of neurology at major medical schools.
So how can Judge Greer ignore the opinions of so many qualified neurologists, some of whom are leaders in the field? The answer is that Michael Schiavo, his attorney George Felos, and Judge Greer already have the diagnosis they want.
Terri’s diagnosis was arrived at without the benefit of testing that most neurologists would consider standard for diagnosing PVS. One such test is MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging). MRI is widely used today, even for ailments as simple as knee injuries — but Terri has never had one. Michael has repeatedly refused to consent to one. The neurologists I have spoken to have reacted with shock upon learning this fact. One such neurologist is Dr. Peter Morin. He is a researcher specializing in degenerative brain diseases, and has both an M.D. and a Ph.D. in biochemistry from Boston University.
In the course of my conversation with Dr. Morin, he made reference to the standard use of MRI and PET (Positron Emission Tomography) scans to diagnose the extent of brain injuries. He seemed to assume that these had been done for Terri. I stopped him and told him that these tests have never been done for her; that Michael had refused them.
There was a moment of dead silence.
“That’s criminal,” he said, and then asked, in a tone of utter incredulity: “How can he continue as guardian? People are deliberating over this woman’s life and death and there’s been no MRI or PET?” He drew a reasonable conclusion: “These people [Michael Schiavo, George Felos, and Judge Greer] don’t want the information.”
Dr. Morin explained that he would feel obligated to obtain the information in these tests before making a diagnosis with life and death consequences. I told him that CT (Computer-Aided Tomography) scans had been done, and were partly the basis for the finding of PVS. The doctor retorted, “Spare no expense, eh?” I asked him to explain the comment; he said that a CT scan is a much less expensive test than an MRI, but it “only gives you a tenth of the information an MRI does.” He added, “A CT scan is useful only in pretty severe cases, such as trauma, and also during the few days after an anoxic (lack of oxygen) brain injury. It’s useful in an emergency-room setting. But if the question is ischemic injury [brain damage caused by lack of blood/oxygen to part of the brain] you want an MRI and PET. For subsequent evaluation of brain injury, the CT is pretty useless unless there has been a massive stroke.”
Other neurologists have concurred with Dr. Morin’s opinion. Dr. Thomas Zabiega, who trained at the University of Chicago, said, “Any neurologist who is objective would say ‘Yes’” to the question, “Should Terri be given an MRI?”
But in spite of the lack of advanced testing, such as an MRI, attorney George Felos has claimed that Terri’s cerebral cortex has “liquefied,” and doctors for Michael Schiavo have claimed, on the basis of the CT scans, that parts of Terri’s cerebral cortex “have been replaced by fluid.” The problem with such contentions is that the available evidence can’t support them. Dr. Zabiega explained that “a CT scan can’t resolve the kind of detail needed” to make such a pronouncement: “A CT scan is like a blurry photograph.” Dr. William Bell, a professor of neurology at Wake Forest University Medical School, agrees: “A CT scan doesn’t give much detail. In order to see it on a CT, you have to have massive damage.” Is it possible that Terri has that sort of “massive” brain damage? According to Dr. Bell, that isn’t likely. Sometimes, he said, even patients who are PVS have a “normal or near normal” MRI.
So why hasn’t an MRI been done for Terri? That question has never been satisfactorily answered. George Felos has argued that an MRI can’t be done because of thalamic implants that were placed in Terri’s skull during the last attempt at therapy, dating back to 1992. But Felos’s contention ignores the fact that these implants could be removed. Indeed, the doctor who put them in instructed Michael to have them removed. Michael has never done so.
END QUOTE
This is just part of the article.
http://libertytothecaptives.ne.....eport.html
Don@162
No fantasy here, you are presented facts and refute them with conjecture…now that IS fantasy…
xmas I would guess one of the people I trust least in my life would be you. With all of your idiotic rantings and spins on the facts….you would be the ‘hangman’ for many decent people
VR @ 163
source for what? As noted, Hammersfahr is not particularly credible, and the evidence overwhelmed his testimony at the 2001 trial.
Not a single one of the other doctors NRO cited have ever examined her. Their comments are worthless in that regard.
Look, it’s simple.
The vast majority of people who are taking the Schindler family side are religious right wing zealots who would say anything that came into their mind to buttress their foolish position. It’s the same everytime there’s a religious conservative issue, whether it’s their craziness over evolution, their silliness over stem cells, or the nonsense about a Ten Commandments statuary (Gee, if they really read the Bible, they might have realized that within days of God giving Moses the Ten Commandments, He got really ticked off about the construction of craven images by the Hebrews).
Facts don’t matter. They are truly the “dittoheads” that Rush Limbaugh brags about on the air. Someone tells them to say something and they simply regurgitate “ditto!”
I truly feel sorry for the Schindlers because of the tragedy of their daughter. Nobody deserves what happened to her. But I stop feeling sorry for them because they have allowed themselves and their family’s tragedy to become a political football.
They threw in with the wrong gang and now they forced to endure additional suffering. That is their own fault.
Chuck @ 164
Yep, Carla Iyer is the nurse. So much for that one. Got anything else?
Nelson@168
Your comment is pure basless idiocy, I am not particularly religious nor is my mother who feels even stronger that I about it than I. My mother is the consumate democrat. Wake up and dont let your anti religous feelings override your intelligence.
VR@163. While I lack the medical authority to dispute this matter in the link you provide, somehow it reminds me of the OJ Simpson, Scott Peterson, Micheal Jackson and all other high profile cases. There is always expert witnesses on both teams weighing in. Every lawyer hopes for a high profile case to up their status. I see it no different in Terri’s case. This Dr say this, the other says that. When all the pieces of the puzzle are heard, summed up and put together we will get another picture. I find it hard to believe that there was a conspiracy going on in Terri’s case. Terri will pass on. Doubtfull criminal charges will follow if so more money down the tube.
torridjoe@169
I guess you have trouble with the printed English language…read it a bit slower and you may understand it better…it is :The
Complete report of Dr. William Hammesfahr, a world-reknowned neurologist
Anyone wanting to see the real view of the American people, and how Bush and his GOP henchmen who genuflected at the knees of religious conservatives are getting their heads handed to them by the American people, need only read this brand new CBS News poll:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories.....2674.shtml
chuck @ 172
Since it’s already been established that Hammesfahr has some serious ethical problems in his practice of medicine, I assumed you were trying to answer my question about where you heard the comments coming from Michael. Since the top line referred to Carla Iyer, the nurse who made such claims, I came to the conclusion that you were confirming her as your source. She’s a nutbag, not even the Schindlers rely on her testimony for anything. Oh, and she was fired.
Nelson@173
I could have shown you polls back in the day that said keep black drinking fountains as well as bathrooms. As well as polls that were against bussing. Even polls that would have kept blacks in the back of the bus…would that have made it right for you? Oh we are doing worse than that to smokers arent we…I forgot…
VR@163. I would have to surmise that being nurses and doctors chart everything it should be clear what the doctor ordered and what right of refusal was made. Those records hold the information we lack. If negligence be found it should be already discovered. Articles are articles, writers are writers. If I am to believe anything it would be the medical records. Sure they can be doctered just like articles and writers. I will remain unconvinced that ethics were ignored, orders ignored and procedures ordered ignored by Micheal and all other claims about Micheal until proven.
I’m not right-wing nut job, not an evangelical bible thumper, not a dittohead. I don’t insult others because of their opinions, I don’t engage in name calling and I try really, really hard to keep my sarcastic tongue and my emotional outbursts under control. And I have concerns as to whether starving Terri is the right thing to do or not.
I’m not trying to prove anything and I’m not accusing anyone of anything. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind. What I’m saying is that there are valid reasons for intelligent people to be uncomfortable with this situation. There is more than one reasonable viewpoint and if we make the information available, people can form their own opinions.
“”Complete report of Dr. William Hammesfahr, a world-reknowned neurologist
Comment by Chuck””
If you researched a little, you’d know this guy is a quack.
Publicity hound.
“”what about people like you don that have never had an original thought and have absolutely NO COMPASSION? in my book that makes you next in line…..you are way too flawed to live. and what about digger? he never works…he IS your tax dollars at work……
Comment by christmasghost””
typical jagoff post from the mad dog squad.
you must have been dropped on your head a time or two.
One more time would have done the trick I bet.
You came, you lied, you attacked…..
Everything I expected from you!!
To Chuck
Sorry to burst your bubble. When you said “Wake up and dont let your anti religous feelings override your intelligence,” you were way off-base. I’m anything but anti-religious. I actually happen to be the lay head of the religious organization that I belong to.
However, unlike you dittohead religious zealots, I will never allow my religious beliefs to intrude upon politics. We live in a country (thankfully) that is supposed to have complete and total separation of church & state. When people like you and Brother George and Brother Jeb and the other Christian zealots try to make the country into the playground of their religious beliefs, those of us who are truly religious must object in the strongest possible terms.
As for your other comment, in #175 about the polls, I posted tonights CBS News poll not so much for the view about Terry Schiavo, but also for the precipitous decline in Bush’s favorable ratings as well as the Republican leadership in Congress.
They truly stepped into a minefield of their own making in this one and it will go down in history as the beginning of the end of Republican electoral victories in the U.S. for the foreseeable future.
The American public will remember for a long time about how the GOP wanted to put religious beliefs over the welfare of the nation.
Jim @ 146
What is the use you are way to ignorant to understand a point when it’s been well made.
VR @ 163
THANK YOU!!! I read that last week.
M R I !! See that GOLDY?
It’s ok, you can be wrong once in a, well most of the time.
I still like ya.
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/a.....vos-brain/
THERESA MARIE = JESUS
MICHAEL SCHIAVO = JUDAS
PALM SUNDAY
GOOD FRIDAY
HAPPY EASTER
BUSH BROTHERS LOSE AGAIN. News tonight on TV showed Jeb Bush who was active in seeing that the Florida CPA take Terri in protective custody on grounds of abuse. Court was held, Florida Judge denied their request. One would thing CPA would not have jurisdiction. Lease one to wonder what part of no the Bush Brothers dont understand. Prez Bush was on TV saying, he has done all he can. Terri’s husband was also on along with many pictures of him and his wife before and after. They looked like a normal loving couple. Some pictures were also shown where Terri’s husband spent time doing ball therapy with her and kissing her. He spoke of how he has been treated during this ordeal. I do not think the man is all the names he has been called by those who have no solid grounds to do so.
For you char
Lindsay Beyerstein debunks some common myths about the situation:
1. Terri is conscious
Court-appointed, government-appointed, and private physicians have confirmed that Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state (PVS). Schiavo suffered massive brain damage as a result of a cardiac arrest 15 years ago, and ongoing neurological degeneration interim.
3. Terri’s collapse is unexplained and/or suspicious
In an attempt to discredit Michael Schiavo, Terri’s parents and their supporters are circulating unsubstantiated rumors of abuse and even accusations of attempted murder. … Terri Schiavo was not a healthy young woman. Her heart stopped because of a potassium imbalance induced by severe bulimia nervosa.
6. Michael Schiavo just wants to inherit Terri’s fortune
What fortune? Even the pro-tube Terri Schiavo Foundation reports that of the nearly one million dollar malpractice settlement earmarked for Terri’s future medical care, less than $50,000 is left.
Conservatives trot out “medical experts” who back their position and promote some of the common myths, but it looks like they get these “experts” in the same wholesale discount outlet that they get “experts” who support “Intelligent” Design. Alas explains:
[M]ost of them are not experts. There are more speech pathologists and psychologists than there are neurologists. And the most qualified experts in this group, seem to take care not to state an opinion. For example, Dr. Kennedy – arguably the best-qualified neurology expert of the 17 – says that he’s willing to examine Terri with the most modern MRI technology. And that’s all he says.
I’ve read all 17 affidavits. I’m not a doctor, of course. But I know a lot about argumentation and debate. One of the most basic tenets of debate is that you have to address the opposing arguments. These affidavits simply don’t do that; like Dr. Hopper, rather than addressing the most crucial evidence and arguments in this case, they pretend that they don’t exist.
According to every medical expert who has actually examined Terri Schiavo, her cerebral cortex has turned to liquid — she no longer has the grey matter necessary to experience higher cognitive functions, much less emotions. How do the conservatives’ “experts” respond?
There are only two logical responses to that argument, that I can think of.
A) An expert could argue that someone can experience consciousness without a cerebral cortex.
B) An expert could argue that Terri’s CAT scan was faulty, or was not read correctly.
Not one of the 17 experts clearly made either of the above arguments. Nor did they make some other argument I didn’t think of. In fact, none of them mentioned the term “cerebral cortex” at all. None of them even referred directly to Terri’s CAT scan.
Terri Schiavo’s condition depends upon the status of her cerebral cortex, but none of the “experts” brought in by her parents even mentioned it? What is with these people and where did the parents find them?
Then, of course, there are the famous video clips that make it appear that Terri Schiavo is conscious and responding to her environment. Did they fool you, too?
Although the out-of-context video snips featured on the terrisfight.org website, and on TV newscasts, seem to show Terri reacting to things around her, the full, uncut video shows Terri smiling and moving her eyes at random. In one instance, her eyes appear to track a balloon; that short sequence has been shown over and over. What they don’t show is the many failed attempts made to get Terri to follow the balloon. With clever editing, even random motions and reflexes – such as smiling and eye movements – can seem conscious. The intelligence and cognition on display isn’t Terri’s, but the film editor’s.
This is a well-known argument, brought up by past expert witnesses and relied on by Judge Greer in his decision. Yet not one of the 17 experts address this argument at all. Not one of the 17 experts reports having viewed the uncut films of Terri (and I doubt any of them did); in fact, several of them specify that they viewed the short clips available on the internet or seen on TV. These 17 affidavits do not respond, in any way at all, to the court’s reasoning regarding the videos of Terri. Again, rather than addressing essential arguments, they simply pretend they don’t exist.
It seems that these 17 people are not only of dubious “expertise,” but also of dubious intellectual honesty. You can’t legitimately file a medical affidavit in a case like this without at l east attempting to address the central issues in the case. I wouldn’t trust these people like this to conduct a medical exam of my cat, much less my wife. Relevant medical licensing boards should take a serious look at them and what sorts of testimony they offer for money.
Who are the people who are funding the efforts to keep Terri alive — that is, funding the efforts to deny a husband the right to make medical decision for his wife (hardly a principle that is conducive to stabilizing marriage)? Who believes so strongly in “states’ rights” that they want the U.S. Congress to intervene in a case that state courts have repeatedly ruled on — consistently in the same way, too? Wealthy conservative foundations.
Bioethics quotes a news story that explains:
I did some Internet research and learned that many of the attorneys, activists and organizations working to keep Schiavo on life support all these years have been funded by members of the Philanthropy Roundtable.
The Philanthropy Roundtable is a collection of foundations that have funded conservative causes ranging from abolition of Social Security to anti-tax crusades and United Nations conspiracy theories. The Roundtable members’ founders include scions of America’s wealthiest families, including Richard Mellon Scaife (heir to the Mellon industrial, oil and banking fortune), Harry Bradley (electronics), Joseph Coors (beer), and the Smith Richardson family (pharmaceutical products).
There is something wrong here. The Florida courts have ruled repeatedly — based on her doctors’ testimony and evidence of statements she previously made about her end-of-life wishes — that Terri is in a persistent vegetative state, would not want her life to be prolonged under such circumstances, and should be allowed to die as the courts have determined she would wish. But the conservative foundations, with their massive funding, have turned the Schiavo case into a war of attrition, where delay is victory.
This entire situation is rather sick. The judge who has ruled in favor of Michael Schiavo has received death threats from the “pro-life” contingent and now has to travel with armed guards. This isn’t really an unusual case because every day hundreds, if not thousands, of Americans are taken off life support or feeding tubes because they, too, won’t recover cognitive functions.
Now, however, well-funded Christian Right organizations are seeking to deny us that right. They have carefully chosen a very specific case where the subject, Terri Schiavo, can be made to appear more a victim of her husband than a victim of their own religious machinations. They have manipulated public perception and medical facts in order to keep this case in the courts. If they succeed, a precedent will be set that will allow them to interfere with the lives of more and more Americans. They want the rest of us to live and die according to their religious dictates.
Here is a good example of of someone spreading myths, misconceptions, and lies about Michael Schiavo and about Terri Schiavo’s situation: Kevin McCullough. Under a picture of Michael Schiavo (labeled: “Picture of a man who is killing his wife” — something that could and some day might be said about everyone who seeks to withdraw life support from a family member), Kevin writes:
MARRIED TO TERRI…
Probably the only true thing he wrote.
SLEEPING WITH HIS MISTRESS…
Terri’s own Catholic parents encouraged Michael to start dating and start a new life. Kevin knows this if he knows anything about the case, so to throw it out as if it were a moral failing of Michael’s is disingenuous.
LUSTING FOR MILLIONS IN SETTLEMENTS…
As noted above, there weren’t any “millions,” just a single million, and this is almost all gone. Again, Kevin knows this if he knows anything and “disingenuous” is insufficient to adequately convey how dishonest this is.
AND SCARED TO DEATH THAT TERRI
MIGHT RECOVER…
Why would he be scared? Kevin McCullough’s RSS feed is more detailed:
And possibly the dead woman will not be able to confirm whether or not he beat her and broke dozens of bones the night of her infamous collapse.
This is a very clear attempt to insinuate that Michael Schiavo is responsible for Terri’s condition and doesn’t want her to recover (as if there were a chance of that happening — notice the implication) so that she can’t testify against him. McCullough stops just short of making the accusation, which saves him from a defamation lawsuit, but the insinuation is no less immoral.
As noted above, if there were any credible reason to think that Michael had anything to do with Terri’s condition, the insurance company would have played it for all they could in order to avoid paying the the malpractice settlement.
Remember, Kevin McCullough is one of those “self-appointed mandarins of religious values” who believes that by virtue of their politics and religion, they are in a position to teach others about what is proper in terms of ethical behavior. The fact that they have to use unethical rhetoric to accomplish their stated goals simply reveals how far beyond the pale they have traveled. They aren’t even fit for a barroom chat, much less political, cultural, or social leadership positions.
Crosswalk, however, gives Kevin McCulllough a prominent voice, thus demonstrating how low they have fallen.
Linda MacDonald Glenn addresses the issue of claims that Terri Schiavo is being “starved” to death:
One of the more disturbing aspects of the political rhetoric is the hyperbole of the politicians and Schindlers talking about how Michael is intent on “starving” Terri to death, as if she were a person who was totally healthy and fully functional. Is it possible that none of these persons have ever witnessed a hospice death? And hospice organizations have explained time and time again that someone at the end-of-life doesn’t experience thirst and hunger in the same fashion that healthy individuals do. The language the politicians and Schindlers are using is intended to provoke and inflame.
What also puzzles me is that these devout Christians seem to be ignoring the fact that, according to the Christian doctrine, death is not the ultimate evil, but eternal damnation is; to allow Terri to die would be to allow her to join with God in eternal life. Perhaps the Schindlers and the politicians don’t really believe in an afterlife? But this case is no longer about Terri’s wishes, or her husband attempting to honor her wishes, or a family dispute. It has become a political battle reflecting the torn state of the nation, about “being right and looking good” and who has control.
The Christian Right and the conservatives who assist them are sickening.
Where was the Republican outrage, indignation, and self-righteous grandstanding in Congress when a Texas hospital removed the feeding tube from a baby against the mother’s wishes?
From the Houston Chronicle, just a few days ago:
Sun’s death marks the first time a U.S. judge has allowed a hospital to discontinue an infant’s life-sustaining care against a parent’s wishes, according to bioethical experts. A similar case involving a 68-year-old man in a vegetative state at another Houston hospital is before a court now.
“It’s sad this thing dragged on for so long. We all feel it’s unfair, that a child doesn’t have a chance to develop and thrive,” said William Winslade, a bioethicist and lawyer who is a professor at the Institute for the Medical Humanities at the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston. Paraphrasing the late Catholic theologian and ethicist Richard McCormick, Winslade added, “This isn’t murder. It’s mercy, and it’s appropriate to be merciful in that way. It’s not killing, it’s stopping pointless treatment.”
The hospital’s description of Sun — that he was motionless and sedated for comfort — has differed sharply from the mother’s. Since February, the hospital has blocked the media from Hudson’s invitation to see the baby, citing privacy concerns.
“I wanted y’all to see my son for yourself,” Hudson told reporters. “So you could see he was actually moving around. He was conscious.” [emphasis added]
What’s the difference between the cases of Sun Hudson and Terri Schiavo? Both have parents claiming that they were not so bad off — that they respond to stimuli and might be successfully treated. Sun, however, was a black baby in a Texas hospital whose treatment was being paid for by institutions no longer willing to foot the bill. Did any of that cause Republicans not to care as much about Sun as they evidently do about Terri Schiavo? Is there something else different about the cases that’s relevant?
Steve M. has quotes from Republican talking points specifically saying that the Terri Schiavo case is to be hyped for its political ramifications (via Oliver Willis):
ABC News has obtained talking points circulated among Republican senators explaining why they should vote to intervene in the Schiavo case. Among them: “This is an important moral issue and the pro-life base will be excited…” and “This is a great political issue… this is a tough issue for Democrats.”
Digby notes:
The Schiavo case also shows that their braying about the sanctity of marriage is a load of rubbish. One of the things that gays want from the marriage contract is the right to make decisions for their spouse in case like this one. Clearly, those rights are only applicable even to straight people if Bill Frist and Randall Terry approve. Otherwise, they may actually enact an act of Congress to stop you — especially if it’s “a great political issue” that “excites their base.” I guess the traditional view of marriage isn’t so sacred after all, is it? And here I thought this stuff was handed down from God. Go figure.
On the one hand are the True Believers of the Christian Right. They do care about Terri Schiavo and this isn’t simply a political issue for them. I don’t know why they never seemed to care as much about Sun Hudson, but the racial issue can’t be overlooked. Someone should start asking some hard questions of these people, demanding to know why they will block abortion clinics and demonstrate in front of Terri Schiavo’s hospice while ignoring the situation of a Sun.
On the other hand are Republican leaders who may agree with some of the Christian Right’s ideology, but for the most part simply use them in order to achieve and maintain power — they have no real principles and have been doing this for quite some time. Sadly, the rank-and-file of the Christian Right hasn’t figured out just how much they have been disgracefully used and then tossed aside.
Frankly, I’m undecided as to which of these two is more ethically and intellectually corrupt. Sometimes one seems worse, sometimes the other. This time they are running neck-and-neck.
VR@177. Everything is cool. This feeding tube issue is not a comfortable one, I agree there. Debate for the sake of debate. Sharing different views brings a lot to the table to sift. Food for thought.
Nelson@180
You let your ass override your ass again, as I said and one more time louder and slower I AM NOT PARTICULARLY RELIGIOUS did it penetrate this time?
diggindude!186. WHAT AN ARTICLE. Put that in the repers pipe and they can smoke it.
ya, sorry goldy, i didnt think it was gonna take up that much space!
The American public will remember for a long time about how the GOP wanted to put religious beliefs over the welfare of the nation.>>>>
The American public remembered when blacks could sit anywhere, use any bathroom ect. see some things arent immediatly proven to be good, sometimes it takes a bit. Look at the governor for instance, polls say Rossi won and we should revote, but instead we get this taxing bitch shoved up our ass! Tell me about polls!
chuck@188 Your right to be wrong is the same as my right to be right. Proves nothing. I think it is okay to be no particular religion but brushing your teeth becomes a religion if you practice it. Which again proves nothing. :-)
anonymous @ 24 congratulations, you are one ahead of me. I have yet to hear an honest Rightwingnut in any media.
adriel @ 181 said “Jim @ 146 What is the use you are way to ignorant to understand a point when it’s been well made.”
Instead of responding to my logical points, you choose to personally insult me. That’s the sign of a lost argument furthered by a closed mind.
Good to know all the polls show the VAST majority of Americans (and the majority of Republicans, AND the majority of conservatives) disagree with you.
Here’s hoping you get some logic behind your arguments…and making them consistent would also help. Until then, insult away. It only makes you look worse and your arguments shown as fallacious.
xmasghoul @ 116 I do believe that after 15 years of watching absolutely no improvement in their daughter’s condition they have more than prepared themselves for the inevitable. Their only problem seems to be trying to get a ‘piece of the pie’ for the story. They are really a sad pair……must be your relatives
The book, Liberalism Is A Mental Disorder, comes out Thursday.
Do you think Al Franken will read it?
I laughed my ass off yesterday listening to Michael Savage on KTTH 770 @ 3 pm, a caller, Mike from Lake Tahoe, “Hi, I just want to say that I am a liberal.”
Savage, “Oh I am so sorry to hear about your mental disorder. Tell me, how did this happen to you?”
LOFLMAO
chardonnay @ 196
Savage is very entertaining. But comparing a political belief to a mental disorder ruins his credibility. It’s as silly as someone saying conservatism is a mental disorder.
But he gets ratings.
michael savage calls bush a wacko too. does that mean he is one?
He calls bush a pansy, does that mean he is one?
Michael savage is very funny, and very accurate at times, by at other times, he is an idiot.
I like when michael savage calls bush a moron, and a traitor for selling this country out to mexico.
I think he is RIGHT ON THE MONEY on those days!!
LOL!!
Chuck @ 191
The only revote you’re gonna get is on American Idol.
Chuck – Stop relying on Hammensfhar. He’s a liar. He hasn’t published a single thing in a peer-reviewed journal. He claims to be nominated for the Nobel Prize. He wasn’t. His congressman (someone who is not qualified to nominate someone) nominated him for a Nobel prize that doesn’t exist. That’s like claiming you were “Grammy nominated” because you burned a CD of your garage band and sent it to the Grammy committee. He’s only world-renowned in his own mind.
More importantly, this case has been litigated up and down the US court system. More facts and evidence have been introduced in this case than probably any other “right to die” case in the history of US law. Sure, if you pass around a carefully edited 4 minute video or accept only one side of the evidence, you can come to your chosen conclusion. But the judges and court-appointed medical experts have weighed all the evidence, and found the Schindler’s case wanting, again and again. New theories the Schinder’s have offered have been rejected by every court in Florida, and the Supreme Court (who 3 times previously refused to hear their case).
The only remaining doubts exists in unfortunately wishful thinking of her parents who refuse to accept their daughter is gone and those charlatans (like Hammersfahr) looking to make a buck/name for themselves.
jcricket@201
Going by your credentials and his…I am more trusting of the man with the Doctorate….
What has happened to Terri was of her own making. Guy Fox, one her attorneys, called it a “LOST LESSON.” She was a fat chubby child and by high school weighed 200 lbs. What were her parents thinking? Social pressure and interest in men caused Terri to starve herself, doing the throw up your food as all bulimics do. By 26 was a thin raving beauty who had attracted her man; no longer 200 lbs. Terri’s health dwindled as she became more and more emnacipated, refusing to eat. What did her parents think? She was living on nothing but fluids all day and iced tea. Now, the issue is whether to feed her or not to keep her alive. Now her parents step up to the plate! The root of her problem was obesity, something parents should have dealt with in her childhood. One might want to reconsider what is criminal and what is neglect in this lost lesson.
The husband’s legal team is made of those promoting “a super race” and “getting rid of the genetically inferior”.
You oughta check out that Hemlock Society.
You lefties are being made out to be dupes. Think!!!!
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/new.....d=84439559
Supreme Court refuses to hear the case. Interesting note is that this is at least the 5th time they have refused to hear this case. Hopefully this means Terri can now die in peace.
Heard brother jeb is trying to suggest new findings that she is concious, and coherent.
Five members of the House Of Reps. were instrumental in the emergency filing according to the news report. Lawyers for the parents of Theresa Marie Schiavo shortly before 11 p.m. Wednesday asked the Supreme Court to order the re-insertion of a feeding tube until lower courts hear constitutional challenges to a state judge’s order to withdraw food and water.
You mean this Hemlock Society?
Thank you for your interest in End-of-Life Choices. Founded as The Hemlock Society in 1980, our organization has one core goal: to assure freedom of choice at the end of life. As part of the full spectrum of this choice, we advocate for the right of terminally ill, mentally competent adults to hasten death under careful safeguards. We believe that each of us is entitled to choose within the law both how we live and how we die.
End-of-Life Choices has three main avenues to accomplish our goals: we advocate, educate, and serve. We create, promote, and support legislation to maximize end-of-life options throughout the United States. As a leading resource in the choice-in-dying movement, we provide education, information, and advice about choices at the end of life and options available to the terminally ill. Through Caring Friends, we inform and advise members on an individual basis about their options at the end of life, including hastening the dying process.
Within the scope of the law, decisions about the end of life should rest in the individual’s hands. We believe that no government entity should insist on a particular course of death, and that depriving individuals of either choice or dignity in this process is wrong. In addition, our principles maintain that no physician should be culpable for allowing a terminally ill adult to achieve a peaceful, dignified death according to the patient’s own informed and stated wishes.
Building on the courageous leadership of our founders, End-of-Life Choices actively advocates for nationwide dialogue on end-of-life issues. Our intent is to create a healthy climate for these options and to enact laws that enable terminally ill adults to elect a dignified death of their choosing. Our goal is to persuade our elected officials to support the majority of Americans who believe in death with dignity.
Going by your credentials and his…I am more trusting of the man with the Doctorate….
That’s it Chuck. Keep believing. In fact, I support you using Hammensfahr as your doctor for critical diagnoses from now on. See how far it gets you.
For everything there is a season. I am sure the final decision is a painful one for her parents. However, it will not be painful for their daughter. As medical experts have stated, her kidneys will shut down and the biochemical changes will take over. Terri will drift of as in her sleep. Her parents gallently have exhaused all avenues and done what they could, possibly this will help them release Terri and face closure.
diggindude@208. RE: Hemlock Society. “Freedom of choice at the end of life.” Their educated stand shows they aren’t the ones drinking the hemlock. :-)
diggindude@206. re “Heard brother jeb is trying to suggest new findings that she is concious, and coherent.” You have to excuse Jeb, he is making a comparible by his own yardstick, measuring terri’s conciousness and coherancy by his own fanatical unconcious incoherant limitations.
Chuck – in case you’re still reading:
http://riffle.blogspot.com/200.....quack.html
Don’t just take my word for it. Having a Doctorate doesn’t make you immune from being egregiously wrong. He’s a quack, plain and simple.
If this mornings news blurb was currant, the Bush Mob hasn’t given in even after the Supreme Court ruled. Jeb still is jabboring about the State of Florida taking over custody of Terri. Mob mentality.
jcricket@213
So you are trying to support your view by poiting out that he isnt supported by some? You know that many people through history with good theories and ideas have been shunned through history….
Chuck@215. Majority support or lack of does not always end up being right. That is where weeding out occurs, a sifting of the chaf from the wheat. A reasonable assumption would be that those respectable reputable doctors and judges of long standing credibility would be who to believe rather than those who offer little if any proof that would soundly substanuates their claims. Here, is where the majority factor and reliability enters in. None of us have the smarts of those whom can be relied upon to determine what needs to be determined in Terri’s case. The Bush Brothers are moral majority politicians, biased as can be and lack medical knowledge also.
You just don’t get it Chuck. It’s about making things up, ignoring evidence to the contrary and then lying about your qualifications.
It’s not about being shunned. Hammsfhar is not Galileo. He’s not offering scientific evidence. It’s pseudo-science, and he knows it. Proof of this is that he’s not willing to even discuss his ideas outside of his own vanity press.
Let me give you some other examples
1) People publish books claiming that man never walked on the moon.
2) There are people who continually offer “proofs” of perpetual motion machines.
3) There are people who are convinced that man and dinosaurs roamed the earth at the same time.
None of these are true. All of the “evidence” for each of these theories has been debunked hundreds of times. The proponents of these theories either refuse to listen, explaining away the faults in their evidence with nonsense or psuedo-scientific babble.
All of the “scientists” who continue to argue these points are “shunned”, because they’re not scientists. Science is under no obligation to take every idea seriously just because some people might believe in it. There is a minimum threshold of proof and evidence that needs to be offered, below that threshold, a person can be safely ignored.
That’s what it’s about Chuck. If you want to claim your theories actually result in patients getting better, you have to publish your data so it can be examined. Hammesfhar’s has never done so, and his lying about his credentials and unwillingness to present his ideas to other scientists are classic hallmarks of being a quack.
It’s not close-minded to reject evidence when it isn’t evidence. Otherwise, we’d start having psychics in the court room and every nut-job who claimed they could heal you with their hands would be a licensesd doctor.
jcricket@217
Oh you must mean people like Galileo…history is plenty with examples like that….
That’s a joke right?
I have now framed and asked the SAME question over a dozen times:
We are no longer talking party preference here kiddo.
No longer talking Terri or conservative or liberal or religion or husband rights or states rights or judicial activism or the Constitution.
We have boiled this discussion down to one single question… one which you refuse to answer.
Are you coming down on the side of LIFE or DEATH – which culture do you want to be associated with?
LIFE or DEATH?
Are you totally incapable of giving a one word answer?
PICK ONE… ONE LITTLE WORD… THAT DEFINES THE PHILOSOPHY GUIDING *YOUR* EXISTENCE …
LIFE or DEATH?
Choose.
Comment by anonymous
Sorry kiddo, NO ONE agrees with you…or disagrees with you… YOU ARE TOO MUCH OF A COWARD TO TAKE A STAND.
We are no longer talking party preference here kiddo.
No longer talking Terri or conservative or liberal or religion or husband rights or states rights or judicial activism or the Constitution.
We have boiled this discussion down to one single question… one which you refuse to answer.
Are you coming down on the side of LIFE or DEATH – which culture do you want to be associated with?
LIFE or DEATH?
Comment by anonymous
Words, words, words, blah, blah, blah, still saying nothing.
The corner you’ve painted is REFUSING to answer a simple damned question.
A simple one word question… LIFE or DEATH??
WHY ARE YOU AFRAID TO ANSWER IT?
See duuuuuuude your problem is this…
If you are such a COWARD that you can’t even call something by its name, you can’t even begin to discuss it honestly.
So come on duuuuuuude, we’re all waiting….
Define your the philosophy of your existance….
LIFE
or
DEATH?
We are no longer talking party preference here kiddo.
No longer talking Terri or conservative or liberal or religion or husband rights or states rights or judicial activism or the Constitution.
We have boiled this discussion down to one single question… one which you refuse to answer.
Are you coming down on the side of LIFE or DEATH – which culture do you want to be associated with?
LIFE or DEATH?
Comment by anonymous
You do realize, don’t you duuuuude that even your liberal pals are sitting at their screens laughing at you:
When you refuse to answer, as you are so studiously avoiding doing, you look like a complete FOOL and/or 2yr old trying to deny reality.
If you answer LIFE you will be humiliated by exposing your hypocrisy of pandering in the litterbox of your liberal pals.
OR
If you answer DEATH even you won’t be able to run from the repugnancy of your own beliefs.
Quite the nice corner you’ve painted yourself into.
Please turn around so we don’t have to see your ugly yellow streak.
Comment by anonymous
We are no longer talking party preference here kiddo.
No longer talking Terri or conservative or liberal or religion or husband rights or states rights or judicial activism or the Constitution.
We have boiled this discussion down to one single question… one which you refuse to answer.
Are you coming down on the side of LIFE or DEATH – which culture do you want to be associated with?
LIFE or DEATH?
And remember… not answering is an answer and reveals much about what you are… or aren’t.
Comment by anonymous
ANALonymous@219. How anal!
The question I haven’t seen answered is who should make the decision about Terri Schaivo.
Everybody keeps talking about her “husband”. They should be saying “husband on paper.”
Here’s a few questions about the husband. If she suddenly woke up and they said she
could be moved home, where would she go? Her “husband” has another family so therefore
“husband” can’t even take her home. Where would she go then? Most likely to her parents
home. Also “husband” would inherit whats left of her lawsuit. What if “husband” died before
her. What would she get? My guess that anything he has of value is (1) in his girlfriends name,
or (2) they own things jointly like his car and thier home with girlfriend named as beneficiary,
or (3) he has a will leaving everything to girlfriend. This means husband can inherit all of
Terri’s assets but if husband dies first, Terri gets nothing. This is a “Husband”? Now I can’t
fault him for moving on under the circumstances, but I think he should have divorced her, married
his girlfriend since he is in reality her husband, having kids with her and probably seeing that
any assets he has would go to her if he died. Now he can inherit what Terri has and spend it on
his girlfriend and her kids.
If we believe in laws, terri would remain disconnected regardless of whether they were married, because the courts found evidence she didn’t want to remain on life support.
Michael could just be remaining married to protect her wishes.
Diggindude@222. I note that jpgee at another thread posted a news article that exposes Tom Delay, makes him out a hypocrite. Source has information at link that indicates Tom had went through the right to die ritual with his father and made a decision on the side of right to die. You can heck it out, think it was a Seattle PI report. Two-faced Tom?
Chee@23
Oh, I would bet ol’ tom has many faces. Whichever happens to fit the current agenda. 82%, tells me, american people are getting wiser. Time to pull the wool back, and see the red wacko team, for whom it really supports.
HINT: Its not blue collar america.
Diggindude@224. Not a full 100 percent yet Dude, 17% still hanging on. Those Holier-than-thou stragglers can hash and rehash the right to die when they all get to heaven. I hope Terri and Michael will be waiting and watching as they stand before the Judgement seat to have their own life pass in review . I was taught that the proud, pious and hypocrites will scorned by God and Bible referance says, “it is harder for a rich man to get to heaven than a camel going through the eye of a needle.” Those peacocks and peahens that think they will be seated at the right hand of the Father might be pleasantly surprised to find they will not. God looks upon one’s heart not upon one’s flesh. More important people worry about getting right with God while here on this Planet if they really believe in everlasting life. instead of worrying over Terry’s life and filling out your own death wish form while here on this Planet. The right-wing extremists treat outsiders as if they are all going to hell in a hand-basket. Don’t think so!
(Courtesy post for right-wing extremists.)