You know, there’s this other local blogger who’s name escapes me at the moment, who claims to be all over election reform and all that, and I’ve been waiting all day to see his analysis of the reform package proposed yesterday by Secretary of State Sam Reed (a Republican)… but so far, nada. Hmm. I guess for some people election reform isn’t really election reform unless it makes it harder to vote.
Reed’s proposal (PDF), on the other hand, is actually quite sensible, and includes two major provisions: moving the primary to August, and allowing for online voter registration via the SOS website.
Ask any county auditor in the state, and they’ll tell you that their number one reform priority is moving the primary… preferably to the spring, but they’ll take August if that’s what they can get. Reed’s proposal moves the primary from the 3rd Tuesday in September to the 3rd Tuesday in August, giving elections officials a much needed cushion before ballots go out for the general election. Reed’s proposal also makes a few other tweaks in this area, increasing the time for certifying a primary from 10 to 15 days, and requiring military and overseas ballots to be mailed out 30 days before the election (an impossible timeline under the current system.) Reed would also ease the legislative fundraising freeze to help accommodate the accelerated schedule.
Reed’s other major proposal would allow voters with a WA state driver’s license or state ID card to register to vote online; the SOS would obtain the voter’s signature from the Department of Licensing to pull into the voter rolls. This is an incredibly progressive, efficient, cost effective reform that would make WA only the second state to allow online voter registration. The only reason I can see why someone might argue against it would be if they don’t want to make it easier for citizens to register to vote. (Um… I expect there to be some passionate opposition.)
There are a bunch of other lower profile reforms in Reed’s proposal, mostly dealing with cleaning up the election statutes, and clarifying some of the rules regarding ballot measure petitions. One change that immediate stood out to me would make it “a gross misdemeanor to circulate a petition that appears to support a measure that differs from the actual measure attached to the petition.” Hmm. I wonder if that would apply to say, the time Eyman printed a petition for a property tax cut initiative with the headline “No New Income Tax!”…? Sure hope so.
While there are other reforms I would like to see, all in all, I can’t find anything in Reed’s proposal that I might object to. After the recent escalation of partisan tensions over the GOP’s voter challenge debacle, I was kind of dreading Reed’s proposal, but once again he has pleasantly surprised me. This appears to be a package of reasonable, modest reforms, and I hope beyond hope that it receives the kind of bipartisan support it deserves.
Wow, Sam’s got something here. Move that primary, and deep six that stupid fundraising freeze. This isn’t the 1890’s.
But, in reality, I can’t support it, because as a closet Republican, I can’t stand the thought of making it easier for people to vote (and harder to fraudulently register to vote) /snark
Devil’s Advocate about on-line registration here:
1. Would someone else be able to register a voter if they had their driver’s license number? What kind of security is there on who actually does the on-line registration?
2. Would the SOS immediately do a search that “Residence Address” is really a legitimate residential address?
3. What about folks who get a Washington Driver’s License as part of their “proof” that they live in Washington so their kids can get in-state college tuition and avoid income taxes in other states?
4. Would the SOS immediately cross-reference the Felon database?
My concern is that there are adequate controls in place to make sure that all Voter Registration requirements are met AND there is a clear trail about precisely who actually sends in that registration. Does having a Driver’s License in and of itself qualify someone to vote in Washington??
I’ll bet Richard Pope can add to the list of internal control questions.
Analysis of election returns shows candidates who beat their mothers do better than those who kill their opponents:
Ron Sims – 55.6%
David “Mother Beater” Irons – 39.5%
Write-In Candidate – 95.2%
Low Tax Looper – 4.8%
Although Irons’ strategy was not perfect (after all, he didn’t win), he could have picked a worse one.
Election reform isn’t election reform unless it makes harder for people who are felons, dead, not citizens, are under-age or don’t live in the district where they’re registered to vote (or vote twice, thrice or more).
And election reform isn’t election reform unless actual people who are allowed to vote, say combat soldiers fighting overseas, are able to receive their ballots and not have their right to vote denied simply because someone in the auditors office didn’t bother to send them a ballot.
Nice rhetorical remark though Mr. Goldstein although it looks like you miss the mark again.
As for Mr. Reed’s proposals. Moving the primary forward or back is a non-starter. If the county auditors feel this will help them, then more power to them.
Computer voting is a different kettle of fish. Certain elections offices and officials are unable to even get the current system to work. Throwing yet another variable into the equation will surely cause even more confusion and mistakes.
Sam’s one of the last of the Evans Republicans. I hope that Democrats give his proposal a good look, because I’ll bet that they come away realizing that Sam’s a decent, thoughtful guy who really does try to solve problems rather than merely score partisan points.
As for Mr. Cynical’s @ 3’s critique, I wonder: What happened to your usual rhetoric? Your missive sounds like it was pulled from someone else’s talking points. Who are you channeling this time?
It’s way too easy to vote. It’s too easy for there to be illegal votes. It’s too easy for stoopid people to vote. It’s too easy for freeloaders to vote.
I think that in order to vote, you must:
1) Prove you are a legal citizen of this country.
2) Pass a test to prove you understand the uniquely Murkan system of governance.
3) Prove you are a Producer and not a Taker. Producers vote. Takers don’t.
That misleading initiative punishment might be for the recent I-901 petitions. My daughter has a co-worker who smokes and was very upset to find the initiative on ballot included bars, he signed the petition for it, because he said the man soliticing signatures told him it only applied to places where kids go………..
Voting should be easy and the authentication should be hard and the laws should be enforced.
Voting should be easy and the authentication should be hard and the laws should be enforced.
Comment by sgmmac — 12/15/05 @ 5:48 pm {I’m sure the Democrats will join me in making voter fraud a capital offense. [hehe]]
Sam Reed political career is DUN. OOOO-ver. He’ll never get elected again. The hate filled D’s won’t ever vote for an R, and us R’s who actually understand freedom and clean elections won’t either.
If you moonbats want an easy “gimme” win, put up somebody with even a shred of integrity and you got it.
Ya know what would be hilarious??? If Dean Logan ran for SOS. Wouldn’t that be a hoot?
5
“combat soldiers fighting overseas … have their right to vote denied simply because someone in the auditors office didn’t bother to send them a ballot.”
Bullshit.
11. Wow. Good argument Wabbit. I guess that settles it.
How bout you go over to SP and look at the actual data that shows king county violating federal law about sending ballots. How bout you look at the actual data on disenfranchied military voters. Want a firsthand account? Call Lt. Suits. Get an earful. Let us know what you find out.
I think that in order to vote, you must:
1) Prove you are a legal citizen of this country.
2) Pass a test to prove you understand the uniquely Murkan system of governance.
3) Prove you are a Producer and not a Taker. Producers vote. Takers don’t.
Thanks, but no thanks, MTR. We already have enough recipies for fascism in this country.
Republicans could care less about voting “reform”. What they really desire is republicans in office. Look at their record on “terroism”. Seen any color coded terror level alerts lately? Why not? Has terrorism gone away? The fact that these alerts ceased right after election day tells it all.
Redneck @ 10: Your only chance to defeat Sam Reed is in the primary. If he gets to the general election, he’ll sail to victory. You know why? Because the vast majority of Democratic voters are pretty moderate — and have shown themselves quite willing to support moderate Republicans. Try to fan the flames of “Democratic hate” all you want, but it ain’t gonna work this time.
Less than brilliant Goldy,
You agreeing with Sam Reed is not news, or the least bit controversial.
Guy is an empty suit; Dean Logan with a college degree
3
On-line registration is merely a technologically-enabled extension of motor voter registration, which we already have, Cynical. It is no harder (or easier) to police than other voter registration methods. The method of registration is immaterial; what counts is how much resources (i.e., tax dollars) you’re willing to invest in verification.
7(3)
That eliminates you, Mark.
8
Maybe he should have read it before signing it.
As long as there was some form of security, and the license or ID requirement was firm, i think I might support it.
Moving the primary is a no brainner.
But the online thing is not a bad idea, subject to my reading the full proposal, if the addressing and signature are verified with the DMV. If the DMV says you live in Yakima, you should have to register in Yakima, not in Spokane. with it tied to the license, you couldnt register twice unless you had two licenses, which i guess could happen. But it could now two, so no real difference.
But then i think that sould be a firm requirement for all registrations and voting: Valid ID
10
“won’t ever vote for an R, and us R’s who actually understand freedom and clean elections won’t either.”
You got that right, Mark — tho I’m not sure you grasp what you actually said!
Believe it or not, I agree with Goldy. I think registering on-line might be more secure than the current process.
One concern – we are now actively giving driver’s licenses and ID cards to non-citizens, both legal and illegal. How would the on-line system work to keep these people from becoming registered voters? Does the DL and ID card indicate citizenship? I think it doesn’t.
12
How about you find a better source, then I might actually read it.
Ass @ 13 – Great reply. Thank you. So you think that legal voters who understand Murka and don’t stand to line their pockets from their votes are “facists”.
Ya know, there’s no better way to defeat kooks than to just give them an open mike. Tell me, how’s that rope feel around her neck…?
RR @ 23 – Just pass through SP. Go to KCE and read their own stuff. See the actual pictures. See the actual data. Some of the statistical analysis might be over yer head, but you can read the conclusions. If ya don’t understand the math, ask me and I’ll be glad to educate you as a public service.
Springer – “vast majority of Democratic voters are pretty moderate…”
Here’s the deal. Most moonbats think they are just intelligent informed moderates who just happen to usually vote D, and everyone else is a right wing kook.
But what that REALLY means is that their dogma, their hate, their blindness, their intolerance, their programming and their one sided view of the world is so deeply ingrained that they really truly actually can’t see any other side.
Ass @ 13 – Great reply. Thank you.
You are welcome.
So you think that legal voters who understand Murka and don’t stand to line their pockets from their votes are “facists”.
No, mark. I think YOU are a fascist.
Ya know, there’s no better way to defeat kooks than to just give them an open mike. Tell me, how’s that rope feel around her neck…?
How would I know? For that matter, how would you? From what I’ve read so far, you’re still trying to figure out what a vagina is.
16
Hey righton, why don’t you ask Low Tax Looper if he’ll run? To contact him write to:
Byron Low Tax Looper
Inmate #323358
c/o Brushy Mountain Correctional Complex
P.O. Box 1000
Petros, TN 37845
Or, you can go to the prison and ask him in person! I’m sure he’d appreciate a visitor. He probably doesn’t get many.
25
Tell ya what, Mark, I’ll work on King County while you work on Ohio, then we’ll compare notes.
26
“Here’s the deal. Most moonbats think they are just intelligent informed moderates who just happen to usually vote D, and everyone else is a right wing kook.”
Not me! I’m a party hack who votes a straight ticket.
11
Sorry Roger. Wrong again.
Try talking to members of the Stryker Brigade who were overseas during the 2004 vote. Folks I’ve spoken with in the 3-21 say they didn’t receive a ballot nor did they see other folks in their unit vote.
I’ve heard, second and third hand, similar complaints from other Regular Army and National Guard units.
Now whether this is a foul up with the Pierce County Auditor, the Department of Defense or whomever can be debated. That it should be fixed isn’t.
It’s a damn pity that this does not fit into yours or Mr. Goldstein’s world view. But at you’re so marginilized politically that your opinion doesn’t really matter.
@ 7
3) Prove you are a Producer and not a Taker. Producers vote. Takers don’t.
I hope you don’t really mean that, because that is so elitist. This is not Europe, circa 1750, and every American has the right to vote, whether they are poor or they are rich.
Bell @ 32 – I’m dead serious. It totally corrupts the democratic process when people can vote to steal other people’s money to compensate for their own bad choices.
Sorry, if yer on the dole, you don’t get to vote.
We should limit the vote to combat vets. Virtually no true republicans in that group. Too many chickenhawks!
Have ya ever noticed the correlation between presence of a vagina and stoopidty?
Comment by Mark The Redneck — 12/15/05 @ 6:27 pm
Direct quote from M-T-R on the thread below. I take it, this is what passes for thought on the wingbat conservative right these days, or mtr has a visciously clever imitator.
Hey, janet s. What say you?
@ 33
That’s unbelievable. Very wealthy Americans of all political stripes ply their influence with Congress and the President to extract goverment largesse, which is a whole lot more costly to you than a person in desparate straits who is trying to better themselves. But if you want to to kick down’n’out folks in the teeth, that’s on your soul, but don’t tell me you’re with the ‘christian’ party.
Proud, I find the comment by Mark the redneck to be totally offensive. I figured if I wouldn’t dignify it by acknowledging it. Since we can’t see who is actually submitting these posts, it is possible that someone is defaming him. Mark? Goldy?
“Extract goverment largesse” WTF is that? You mean getting to keep our own money that we earned through our own efforts? That’s wrong?
I don’t kick the down’n’out folks. I just don’t want ’em to hit me up to pay for their lifetime of bad choices. Let ’em fuck up their lives. I don’t care. But they oughta bear responsibility, and in the long run, that will cure stupid choices.
The stock trade provides no benefit to the economy once an IPO is finished, but I don’t see anyone proposing to strip wall street analysts of voting rights.
My family voted Nader in 2000 (though we rue it now.), consider ourselves liberals, and vote mostly Democratic, but we all voted for Sam Reed.
MTR – It’s fundamentally a stupid distinction. People arn’t on welfare their whole lives. They arn’t on welfare for even an election cycle, for gods sake.
@37. Yes, you may be right. MTR* is obviously drunk or there is somebody doing a good imitation of him. Happens to the best of us, drinking that is. Imitation in this instance does not appear to be a sincere form of flattery.
*coincidentally the name of a scoufflaw sheet metal firm notorious form ripping off customers, not paying its employees, stiffing it’s creditors, and performing incredibly shoddy work.
Janet, Donna, sgmmac, etc – Let me explain… the only women who are “into” politics are those who are too unattractive to get a man to pay all their bills. As a woman’s “stock price” drops into oblivion as she ages, she turns to gummint to pay her bills. At that point, they become REAL interested in politics.
If ya think I’m wrong, show me one… just one.. 23 year old “10” who’s into politics. There are none… They aren’t ’cause they don’t hafta. They have other priorities.
I have field data. I have collected signatures for various initiatives over the years. I’ve talked to thousands of people in the process. It is rare to have a 10 want to talk to me about initiatives. They just don’t GAF. The ONLY time I see 10s is when they’re with their successful and rich husbands when I’m collecting sigs in a wealthy neighborhood.
righton @ 16
“Less than brilliant Goldy,
You agreeing with Sam Reed is not news, or the least bit controversial”
Here’s a clue for ya—Goldy doesn’t write to please YOU.
Dipshit!
) Prove you are a Producer and not a Taker. Producers vote. Takers don’t.
I hope you don’t really mean that, because that is so elitist. This is not Europe, circa 1750, and every American has the right to vote, whether they are poor or they are rich.
Comment by Belltowner— 12/15/05 @ 7:27 pm
I think everyone should have the right to vote. I also think there should be a constitutional amendment that limits the maximum that the government confiscates from the taxpayer. No more than 25% or total income for Federal taxes. Social security should be locked with a ceiling no higher then the first $100,000. The States should be limited to 10%.
@ 38
Billions for ag companies (Farm Bill) Billions to big pharma (Medicare Bill), Billions for Iraq War (or, as its known at Big Oil, Iraqi Research and Developement)
@ 41
Mark TR is a Tom Leykis fan, which I am, but I’m smart, because I don’t WRITE IT DOWN ON THE INTERNET regarding how I agree with the teacher.
It is rare to have a 10 want to talk to me about initiatives.
Mark\fake Mark, it is probably rare for any woman to talk to you about anything.
@ 43
Thanks for the idea. Did you know that for many wealthy Americans, your plan would be a tax increase?
As for state taxes, WA takes, as a percentage of income, more from lower income residents than from the rich. But ask Goldy, because he studies that shit.
Mark, you might want to keep that Leykis 101 stuff under your hat. Its nothing but trouble.
Mark the Redneck @ 25
“If ya don’t understand the math, ask me and I’ll be glad to educate you as a public service. “
Haaaa, haaaaa, haaa. Ohhhhh, hoooo, hoooo. That’s funny!
You can’t even figure out how to submit a $100 donation to Maria Cantwell’s web site. I doubt you count to 100 without using flash cards.
Let’s see…Mark the Redneck had this to say in an earlier thread today:
“These fucking people want to kill us. All of us. If torture is what it takes to win this war, go for it. Deprive them of sleep. Pull their fingernails out. Fuck them up the ass. Fuck with their heads. Cut appendeges off. Even make them wear women’s panties if that’s what it takes.”
and he had this to say in this comment thread:
“It’s way too easy to vote. It’s too easy for there to be illegal votes. It’s too easy for stoopid people to vote. It’s too easy for freeloaders to vote.
I think that in order to vote, you must:
1) Prove you are a legal citizen of this country.
2) Pass a test to prove you understand the uniquely Murkan system of governance.
3) Prove you are a Producer and not a Taker. Producers vote. Takers don’t.”
(additionally, he doesn’t make good on his bets.)
I know that some folks on the right are very sensitive to the use of the term “fascist” to refer to individuals who demonstrate such tendencies. My question is, has MTR crossed that threshold where the term is fitting and can be used factually?
@ 43
Thanks for the idea. Did you know that for many wealthy Americans, your plan would be a tax increase?
As for state taxes, WA takes, as a percentage of income, more from lower income residents than from the rich. But ask Goldy, because he studies that shit.
Comment by Belltowner— 12/15/05 @ 8:06 pm
You obviously dont know anything about the AMT do you? Almost all Americans who make over $200,000 pay roughly 25%. So much for your tax increase at least on the Federal side.
@5 & 11
Combat soldiers overseas rarely get to vote because it usually takes 3 or 4 weeks to get mail to someone in a combat zone. It is improving, but it depends upon where you are and how long you have been there. The longer the soldiers are there, the more built up infrastructure.
@19
You are right, but I still like the idea of making initiative getters be honest. We have enough deception in politics.
@ 52
I am ofcourse not a soldier, but if I was knee deep in The Shit, I figure the least of my worries are voting.
52
Also it hurts if the solier is registered in a donk county. For some reason they are just slow to get the ballot to you. I bet you if you were a street drunk in KC they would walk the streets to try to find you. Heck they will even fill it out for you… all you would need to do is sign.
@36
I would like to see MTR say that to my face, but unfortunately he probably wouldn’t be able to find the “guts” for a face to face. It’s so easy to say that crap online or around your bar buddies.
Bell 45 & 48 – Oh yeah, this stuff is L101 at it’s base. But I have actual field data that backs up what The Professor says. That’s why his stuff resonates. That’s why FUWA hates it. It’s undeniable. Not saying that’s the way it should be… but it’s the way it is.
sgmmac – So you DO think it’s OK for The Takers to be able to vote themselves the ability to steal money from The Producers? Really? How can you justify that on moral grounds? That’s evil on its face. WTF???
Mark the Redneck,
I own a house, I pay my bills, and I don’t need a damn man to do it. As a matter of fact, I have never needed a man for money. Men like you are only good for 3 things,
1. taking out the trash
2. mowing the lawn
3. working on cars
A man who looks like Brad Pitt, George Clooney, etc, is good for sex.
sgmmac – Because you are too unattractive to get a man to do it. If you could you would.
@58
Each and every American citizen has the inherent right to vote in this country. There are some exceptions.
No, I don’t believe that punishing someone because they lost their job and need public assistance is fair, equitable or right.
Everybody needs help sometime in their life.
Pitt and Clooney are good for movies too.
You have no idea what I look like!
Actually I agree sort of with Tom Leykis. All men want to is get with a good looking women. The only problem is they only date rich guys. If you are a poor guy you are better off hanging out with the guys then to date. You are a lot happier in the long run and who knows you can always get lucky.
well, dj @50, today is your lucky day:
I think that in order to vote, you must:
1) Prove you are a legal citizen of this country.
I’m a citizen and have a driver’s license. I even have a passport.
2) Pass a test to prove you understand the uniquely Murkan system of governance.
Wow, I have no idea what that is, and I was born here. Does that disqualify me?
3) Prove you are a Producer and not a Taker. Producers vote. Takers don’t.”.
I make a good wage @over $50k/yr. Is that sufficient?
Bottom line, I am not sure I like your arbitrary lines. What keeps you from saying that race = stupidity? Where is your line drawn? Do you draw a line?
sgmmac – I was out a few days ago and saw a 10 about 23 yo in my neighborhood drivin a fancy sports car. And I thought to myself…”wow, I’ll bet she went to a top university and graduated at the top of her class. I’ll bet she got a real good job with a real good company. I’ll bet she gets up at O dark thirty every day and works her ass off. I’ll bet she’s the top producer in her office. That must be how she can afford $70k car and a house in a million dollar neighborhood at 23.”.
Then I say “Nah, she got a phd in BJs.”.
Was I wrong?
@ 64
Blacks didn’t contribute to society for hundreds of years, that’s why we didn’t let ’em vote. Or Chinapersons. Or Mesc’ins.
/snark
I am all for Sam Reed’s idea — which, in fact, could turn out to be an incredible idea — on one condition: the online registration system must, must, must be linked to and address verification program. There are many companies that write such software for the mailorder and related industries. They use the official USPS database that tells you exactly which addresses are businesses, which are houses, which are MFDU’s (multi-family dwelling units — i.e. apartments, condos, etc.), which are disguised PO boxes and which are PMB’s (e.g. Mailboxes, etc.).
That is not to say that you can’t register to vote if your address is flagged there, BUT you then must register in person and sign a small paragraph that says you swear that you physically reside at said address.
For the critics, I point out that an online system would actually catch MORE people than a going-through-the-motions clerk.
Marks I think you got confused on the thread. Dj was quoting me. So let me grade your test.
1) You pass.
2) You fail. For example, do you think you’re “entitled” to take my money?
3) You probably pass. Lower 50% pays only 4% of tax load and the median salary I think is around $35k. So since you’re above average, at least you pay some. So you pass on this but only barely.
But on 2, unless you can convince me otherwise, you don’t get a vote.
I have a student loan, does that count? And I go/went to a public university. Am I a freeloader?
Hey, Bellboy @ 65, the proper term is “Messicuns.” Now, go report to Diversity and Sensitivity Class! ;)
@50, DJ
To answer your question, Remember during the Democrat Primary season and Howard Dean said that he wanted to represent those old inbred county boys in the south, the ones with their gun racks in back of their fat heads in their beat up pick up trucks painted 6 different colors?
Dean was talking about Mark the Redneck! Why Dean would want him I don’t know, but we don’t want him either, so Dean is welcome to him!
@ 70
MTR is spoken for, he’s already joined a party. They wear red armbands! and undesirables can’t vote!
I love how Mark the Rumpranger has all these ideals and yet none of them apply to him. Odds are very very long that he’s over 17 or making over 20K a year.
How horrible it must be to realize that the two things that used to at least make him worthy–being male and being white–don’t really amount to shit any more.
new record, took 71 posts to get to the nazi slur…
reliable, though slow on this one..
Earlier Mark The Redneck stated :
Hmmm.. I wonder what his stand on a woman’s right to vote is?
Or the privacy of her own body?
31
You know what hearsay is? That’s what you’re posting — hearsay. Ever hear of a Federal Write In Ballot? Know what a Unit Voting Assistance Officer is? If nothing else works, they can tear off the cardboard flap of an MRE box, write “Republican for governor” on it, print and sign their name, address it to “King County Elections, Seattle, Washington” and drop it in the unit mail bag. You’re so full of shit. It’s easier for military personnel to vote in Washington than any other state. They don’t even have to be registered.
‘Twas the week before Christmas and all through the House
No bills were passed ’bout which Fox News could grouse;
Tax cuts for the wealthy were passed with great cheer,
So vacations in St. Barts soon would be near;
Katrina kids were nestled all snug in motel beds,
While visions of school and home danced in their heads;
In Iraq our soldiers needed supplies and a plan,
Plus nuclear weapons were being built in Iran;
Gas prices shot up, consumer confidence fell;
Americans feared we were on a fast track to…well…
Wait— we need a distraction— something divisive and wily;
A fabrication straight from the mouth of O’Reilly
We can pretend that Christmas is under attack
Hold a vote to save it— then pat ourselves on the back;
Silent Night, First Noel, Away in the Manger
Wake up Congress, they’re in no danger!
This time of year we see Christmas every where we go,
From churches, to homes, to schools, and yes…even Costco;
What we have is an attempt to divide and destroy,
When this is the season to unite us with joy
At Christmas time we’re taught to unite,
We don’t need a made-up reason to fight
So on O’Reilly, on Hannity, on Coulter, and those right wing blogs;
You should just sit back, relax…have a few egg nogs!
‘Tis the holiday season: enjoy it a pinch
With all our real problems, do we honestly need another Grinch?
So to my friends and my colleagues I say with delight,
A merry Christmas to all,
and to Bill O’Reilly…Happy Holidays.
This whining about military voters being disenfranchised in the Nov. 2004 election is nothing but rightwing lies. Fairy tales. Sure, a ballot may have got lost in the mail here or there — but that can happen to any of us, and King County Elections has no control over the mail.
The truth is, King County Elections sent out over 15,000 overseas and military ballots; the return rate on these ballots was almost identical to statewide turnout (around 85%); and only 16 of these ballots weren’t counted because they were received too late.
Because KCE doesn’t differentiate between overseas military and civilian voters, it’s unknown how many — if any — of these 16 ballots were military votes. Possibly none. They may have all been civilian voters. We also don’t know why these 116 votes came in after the deadline. The most plausible explanation is the voters procrastinated in mailing them.
Should we bend over backwards to make sure military personnel can vote? Yes, absolutely! In fact, we have. Here’s what was done to help military voters:
1. First and most important, the voting age was lowered to 18 so military personnel could vote. This happened during the Vietnam war. The argument was, if you’re old enough to fight, you’re old enough to vote — and that’s absolutely right.
2. All overseas ballots were mailed by Oct. 8, to allow the maximum amount of time for delivery. They couldn’t be mailed earlier for the simple reason that ballots for the November election couldn’t even be printed until the September primary results were certified.
3. Every military unit is supposed to have a designated Unit Voting Assistance Officer, who is supposed to be supplied with Federal Write In Ballots. Every soldier is supposed to be informed he can use a FWIB to vote if, for any reason, he doesn’t receive a regular ballot from his home jurisdiction.
4. If, for any reason, a soldier can’t get a FWIB from his UVAO, the law allows him to improvise a ballot from any writing materials at hand.
5. A soldier stationed overseas does not need a stamp to mail his regular, FWIB, or improvised ballot.
6. A soldier does not even need to know the names of the candidates he wants to vote for. He can indicate his choice by writing “Republican candidate for president,” etc., or simply “R for governor.”
7. Don’t give me this line of crap that soldiers are too embroiled in combat to vote. That’s nothing but rightwing talking-point bullshit. NO ONE in Iraq has been in continuous combat for weeks, or even days, at a stretch. I served with a front line combat unit in Vietnam, and I know how wars work.
Now, what else do you want? Ballots delivered to soldiers by butlers in livery on silver service? I’m for it — but pay taxes for it. Nothing is free. If you want more time for ballots to get to soldiers in combat zones, then support moving up the primary to an earlier date, instead of blocking that legislation like the Republicans did in the 2005 Legislature.
But the truth is, military voters were NOT disenfranchised in the 2004 election. That’s GOP propaganda. It’s a fucking lie.
erratum
“We also don’t know why these 116 votes came in after the deadline” should be “We also don’t know why these 16 votes came in after the deadline.”
Sixteen (16), not one hundred sixteen (116). That’s how many overseas ballots were rejected — sixteen (16), which comes after fifteen (15). Out of more than fifteen thousand. Disenfranchised military voters, my ass! If they didn’t bother to send in a ballot, that’s their problem.
77
So another word we are to believe your bullshit about a big conspiracy in Ohio and Florida but if hundreds of soldiers complain about not having their votes counted then we are to believe KCRE…. BULLSHIT!!
33
“It totally corrupts the democratic process when people can vote to steal other people’s money to compensate for their own bad choices.”
What do you call charging taxpayers $500 billion to bail out S & Ls looted by Republican businessmen under a Republican administration?
What do you call Bush’s $740 billion gift to the pharmaceutical and insurance industries in the guise of a senior prescription drug benefit that doesn’t benefit seniors and few seniors want?
What do you call Bush’s $30 billion-plus gift to Big Energy?
What do you call shoveling money into duffel bags held open by private contractors in Iraq from the backs of pickup trucks?
What do you call the billions in no-bid contracts awarded to Republican contributors for overpriced goods and services in the Katrina aftermath?
I read somewhere that between 2000 and 2004, a total of $4 billion was contributed to Republican candidates, and the contributors got back $400 billion worth of subsidies and tax breaks. Pretty damn good return on investment.
Mark, you are so fucking hypocritical it makes my teeth hurt.
Hundreds, Rufus? I know of 2 or 3 complaints. Whenever I hear about soldiers complaining about not getting to vote, it’s the same 2 or 3 names. Lt. Suits was 1. Then there was that young man who appeared on TV with his parents (at a press conference set up by the GOP). I’ve heard of a couple others while listening to Carlson’s or Wilbur’s radio shows. You’re full of shit.
Is it unfortunate those soldiers couldn’t vote? Yes, of course. But the same thing happens to civilian voters. Shit happens, dude. It’s not a perfect world. Out of 3 million votes, there are bound to be a few going astray.
Was it a perfect election? No, of course not. If a perfect election is your criterion for a candidate taking office, then let’s clean out the White House and Congress and every other office holder in the country all the way down to dog catcher, because none of them were elected in perfect elections. You do the best you can, and go with what you’ve got, same as with everything else in life.
Of all the Republican lies in the aftermath of the 2004 election, the claim that military voters were disenfranchised is the most vicious and the least true.
@ 73
Verboten!
A gen-yoo-ein misogynist.
MTR, dude. Why?
80
I know 2-3 in my circle of friends alone. Anyone who said there were no problems with the military vote simply is a liar or pathetically mislead and wouldn’t know the truth if it hit them. End of Story.
If military voters were disenfranchised, then how do you explain the fact that 13,775 military/overseas ballots were COUNTED in King County?
righton
You were looking for a Nazi compliment?
BREAKING NEWS — EXTREMELY URGENT — KING 5 NEWS REPORTS NUCLEAR EXPLOSION IN ST. PETERSBURG, RUSSIA
This information is unverified. Mrs. Rabbit is watching TV and told me. Nothing posted on news services yet.
RABBIT YOUR THE ONE FULL OF SHIT.I CAN NOT SPEAK FOR THE OTHER SERVICES BUT I CAN TELL YOU ALL THAT WHAT THE RABBIT IS SAYING IS JUST PLAIN BULLSHIT IF YOU WANT TO SPESK TO THE MATTER AT LEAST KNOW SOMETHING OF WHICH YOU SPEAK.THERE ARE TIMES WHEN YOU ARE IN THE COMBAT ZONES WHERE ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS WRITE FREE IN THE RIGHT HAND CORNER AND THERE IS NO POST MARK AND AS IVE TOLD YOU BEFORE IT DOES NOT MATTER WHEN THE BALLOTS ARE SENT OUT IF THE SHIP IS OUT OF COD RANGE NO MAIL AND IF THE SHIP IS GOING INTO PORT THERE IS A MESSAGE THAT GOES OUT TO SEND THE MAIL TO THE PORT INSTEAD OF THE SHIP SO IT COULD BE WEEKS BEFORE YOU SEE MAIL,AND IF THERE IS A BACKLOG ONCE THE SHIP IS BACK IN RANGE OF THE COD THAN THE PRIORITY IS PARTS AND MAIL TAKES A BACK SEAT IVE SEEN MANY A TIME WE DID NOT GET MAIL FOR 3 WEEKS.AND HAS BEEN STATED ON THIS BLOG IF I DATE MY BALLOT THE DAY BEFORE THE ELECTION AND IT GETS THERE 3 WEEKS LATER THEY ARE GOING TO COUNT THAT VOTE YOU WISH.THATS JUST HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS
In a Gallup Poll today, only 3% of those polled were offended by someone saying Merry Christmas. ONLY 3%!!!!!!!!!!
To those easily offended 3%, I say F*CK YOU VERY MUCH!!
Roger,
My post said combat zone, that does not apply these days to soldiers stationed in Germany, Korea, or the ordinary overseas duty stations.
There is a submarine base in St. Petersburg, and about a year ago an explosion aboard a nuclear sub killed 1 sailor. May be a similar type of incident. I don’t think it was a nuclear bomb, or the TV networks would be going apeshit.
yo, if you desire anyone to read you posts, use lower case.
Sheesh.
Belltowner is correct that most soldiers are not worrying about not getting their ballots in combat zones………
91
If somebody gets in a twist over “Merry Christmas,” screw ’em.
NEW YORK A new Gallup survey released today finds that four decades after the “God Is Dead” controversy was first noted, Americans retain a strong belief in a higher power. Some 94% think God exists.
Only 5% feel God “does not exist” — and even most of them “are not sure” of that. Exactly 1% are certain there is no God.
But how strongly do the believers believe? Nearly 8 in 10, in fact, say they are “convinced” God exists, although Gallup does not ask them why that is.
Conservatives are more likely to be convinced than liberals (87% vs. 61%), women a little more likely than men (82% vs. 73%), and residents of the South more than those in the East (88% vs. 70%).
Surprisingly, some 61% of those who seldom or never attend church are nevertheless convinced that God exists.
The poll sampled 1,002 national adults, Nov. 17-20.
90
And what exactly do you expect King County Elections to do about that? If they can’t get mail, they can’t get mail. That’s a problem only the military can deal with.
Mr. Cynical, regarding the existance of “God” (provide definition here), I remain skeptical.
Roger,
What station are you on?
Today’s Gallup Poll results:
Sixty-two percent of Americans say that the now nearly ubiquitous use of “Happy Holidays” or “Season’s Greetings,” rather than “Merry Christmas,” in many stores and public institutions is a change for the worse. Only 24% consider it a change for the better.
While the generic greetings bother a third of the public, there is almost unanimous public tolerance for the phrase, “Merry Christmas.” Only 3% of national adults say it bothers them when stores specifically refer to the Christian holiday in their displays, rather than “Happy Holidays” or “Season’s Greetings.”
I am Soooooooo glad the LEFTIST PINHEADED CHRISTIAN HATING CLOWNS have taken the wrong side on this one.
Are you concerned about the backlash Paul Berendt??
Merry Christmas to all you New Age Progressive Gnomes!
@ 87
I promise to always match my Nazi slurs with a Nazi compliment.
So here goes: The Nazis were very, ahem, organized.
Roger,
The Stryker Brigade soldiers are at Fort Lewis and if they are residents of Washington, they are in Pierce county. I have a retired CSM friend in Iraq working for KBR. He got his ballot right before the election, but it didn’t make it back in time. Thurston County. Many soldiers don’t bother with trying to vote, it is a small percentage that actually votes consistently because it’s ugly. I used the voting assistance officer a couple of times.
If you can’t vote because of circumstances beyond anyone’s control, you’ve been prevented from voting, not “disenfranchised.” Obviously, there are complexities involved in getting mail to or from remote duty stations, or combat zones. I understand that, idiot! After all, I was in a war (long ago, far away). Instead of bitching about it, come up with solutions. I’m sure the military would like your ideas. They take it seriously, and so do our election officials.
What I object to is you rightwing liars extrapolating the unavoidable difficulties inherent in military mail service into claims the election was illegitimate because someone kept military voters from voting. That is 100% a lie. Fuck you.
Donnageddon sez:
Mr. Cynical, regarding the existance of “God” (provide definition here), I remain skeptical.
Comment by Donnageddon— 12/15/05 @ 10:48 pm”
Our purpose here on Earth is to draw closer to God. SEEK Him DonDon….seek Him with an open heart and you will be able to answer your own question.
Mr C. Merry Christmas.
That is my end all statemnet on this crapolla wingnut diatribe non-story.
Rog–
Merry Christmas to you!
“Our purpose here on Earth is to draw closer to God. SEEK Him DonDon….seek Him with an open heart and you will be able to answer your own question.”
Ok, will do!
104
Damn, I wasn’t saying all of those bad things. Goldy has the best solution for it, I have heard yet. Thurston county now allows military to request a ballot by email and then they mail it back.
101
To tell you the truth, Cynical, the only reason I pay any attention to the Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays controversy is because it pulls you trolls’ chains. It’s a manufactured controversy if there ever was one. No one has been killed, injured, impoverished, rendered homeless, or made unemployed or ill by someone saying “Happy Holidays.”
Hey Cyn, I have a totally harmless gift for you:
HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS HAPPY HOLIDAYS
har har har
109
I wasn’t talking to you.
100
King 5
Still a little fuzzy on what I am seeking re: “God”, but I will keep a look out, until someone provides me with a good description.
Betcha it’s a sub base incident.
11:00 news is coming on, maybe I’ll find out more
OK, it’s the lead story on KOMO 4 News, it’s an explosion at a nuclear power plant in Russia, apparently there’s some radiation release
Roger ill bet you were a big hit in court with the fuck you.did you learn that in 3rd year law.i forgot you worked for the state.let me show you what i learned in navy boot camp in 2 days. go take a flying fuck asshole.
I switched there.
Actually the military can’t do it any better. The problem is mail comes by air to the airports and then it waits to be put into containers/trucks for land travel and it has a low priority for logistics people. Soldiers like mail, but they need food, bullets, ammo, repair parts, you know the deal.
45 days would be better, ballots by email & mail back, go online and prepare the ballot to mail (goldy), the online preparation would suit Navy personnel pretty well, most of them have internet, I don’t know about the subs though.
Absolutely nothing on the internet yet, apparently there was an explosion in the containment vessel at a nuclear power plant in St. Petersburg, Russia, and at least 3 people are injured and there is some radiation release. Since this is a power plant, it couldn’t have been a nuclear explosion, because power plants don’t use weapons-grade nuclear material. It takes 99% purity to produce a nuclear explosion, and power plants use 30% to 40% pure fuel.
“Explosion Rips Through Smelter At Russian Nuclear Plant
“December 15, 2005
“By KOMO Staff & News Services
“ST. PETERSBURG, RUSSIA – An explosion ripped through a smelter at a Russian nuclear power plant outside the northern city of St. Petersburg but radiation levels were normal, Russia’s nuclear agency said Friday.
“Rosenergoatom said three people were badly burned in the blast Thursday at the Leningrad nuclear power plant. The smelter was located in the second unit, which had been shut down for major repairs in July, the agency said. A unit generally contains a reactor.
“‘There were no violations of safety levels and operating conditions of the energy units of the Leningrad nuclear plant,’
Rosenergoatom said in a statement.
“The RIA-Novosti news agency quoted the Emergency Situations Ministry as saying that the blast occurred in an industrial zone in the city of Sosnovy Bor.
“The ministry said that two of the three people injured had burns over 90 percent of their bodies.”
http://www.komotv.com/stories/40793.htm
Their definition of no radiation release may not be the same as my definition of a radiation release………
And the Bush Administration definition of Torture is not the rest of the rational world’s definition of torture…
In any event, I am not seeing any of this Radiation (nuclear) stuff on the web yet…
107
Same to you, ugly toothless old man!
121
Yeah, gotta take what the Russkies say with a grain of salt. Sounds like a garden-variety industrial accident, though. Not even in the power plant. The U.S. media goes ga-ga over anything remotely connected with the nuclear plant.
Russia is a very dangerous place to work. No safety regulations. They should get rid of Putin and elect a Democrat.
Know what the comrades did with their nuclear waste? They threw it on the ground. Literally. I went to a legal seminar a few years ago where one of the speakers said there’s a lake in Russia that’s so polluted with toxic shit that you’ll get a lethal dose of radiation if you stand on the beach for 60 minutes. The whole countryside is strewn with toxic crap, they just threw it out the back door. No concern for the environment whatsoever.
Kind of like what the Republicans want to do to our country.
109
I was talking to Rufus, Yo, and their ilk.
1118
Yeah, we had that problem in The Nam, too. The worst thing is when a family is notified their loved one is KIA and his mail still keeps coming. It’s a fact of life that the military often operates in remote and primitive areas, and sometimes, someone is risking life and limb just to get the mail in and out of a duty station. I can’t think of a way to get ballots to the crew of a ballistic missile sub, can you?
Obviously, it would help to have more than 4 or 5 weeks to print and mail ballots. It’s inexplicable that the state senate Republicans blocked moving the primary date. I suspect they were holding it hostage for some things they wanted (and didn’t get), like requiring everyone to re-register. That was Pam Roach’s idea, and it’s going nowhere in a Democrat-controlled legislature. Democrats have spent millions of dollars and countless volunteer hours to register their voters, and she thinks we’re going to throw out all that expense and work on her whim? It would create mass confusion. Tens of thousands of voters would go to the polls only to discover they’re not registered anymore and can’t vote. Why are Republicans so determined to keep American citizens from voting in our own country?
But the truth is, military voters were NOT disenfranchised in the 2004 election. That’s GOP propaganda. It’s a fucking lie.
Comment by Roger Rabbit— 12/15/05 @ 10:17 pm
Wabbit you miss the point on this comment. Take my word for it the Military voters have been disenfranchised for years.
klake @ 128
“disenfranchised
adj : deprived of the rights of citizenship especially the right to vote [syn:”
You’re playing fast and loose with the English language. To be unable to vote (because of circumstances) is NOT the same thing aas “disenfranchised.” Disenfranchising someone consists of not allowing them to vote or not counting their ballot. No one is doing that to military voters. You lie.
klake, I wouldn’t take your word for anything.
NEW SCANDAL: BUSH AUTHORIZED ILLEGAL DOMESTIC SPYING ON AMERICANS
U.S. Constitution, Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
“Bush Lets Government Spy on Callers Without Warrants
“By James Risen and Eric Lichtblau, The New York Times
“WASHINGTON (Dec. 16) – … President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States … without the court-approved warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials.
“The previously undisclosed decision to permit some eavesdropping inside the country without court approval was a major shift in American intelligence-gathering practices … some officials … questioned whether the surveillance has … crossed, constitutional limits on legal searches.
…
“Nearly a dozen current and former officials, who were granted anonymity because of the classified nature of the program, discussed it with reporters for The New York Times because of their concerns about the operation’s legality and oversight.
…
“The White House asked The New York Times not to publish this article …. After meeting with senior administration officials … the newspaper delayed publication for a year ….
“While many details about the program remain secret, officials familiar with it say the N.S.A. eavesdrops without warrants on up to 500 people in the United States at any given time. The list changes as some names are added and others dropped, so the number monitored in this country may have reached into the thousands since the program began, several officials said.
… “
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/new.....2809990023
I dont fully doubt it is true, or at least partially true.
But I am always skeptical of anonymous sources….
then again, I have always thought this was happening since the 70s so…..no big surprise to see its still happening
what can Ii say, I am a cynic about the government in general.
Having been in the Military for 20 years, I would say no Mr. Klake. Military voters have not been disefrachised. Every unit I was in had a voting Officer or Senior NCO. The Army went out of its way to get people to fill out the forms.
Like most Americans however, Military voters have been, and still are, exceptionally lazy when it comes time to exercise the Sovereign Franchise. They buy into the myth that voting is not important, that all politicians are crooks, that a single vote does not make any difference.
My Republican Brothers and Sisters encourage this attitude. The anti government spiel that they continue to push is intended to devide the country, weeken the opposition, and prevent those that are getting screwed from kicking out those that are doing the screwing. And it has worked like a charm(http://www.shout.net/~bigred/Screwing.htm).
134
These rightwing crybabies think any election they don’t win is illegitimate. Fuck ’em! Next year there’s going to be a LOT of elections they think are illegitimate, because all the polls indicate the GOP will get flattened in the 2006 midterms. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lose 100 seats in Congress.
Has anyone connected the dots yet? They want extra-legal detention without due process, courts, or trials because they can’t use illegally obtained information in court. And also because their interrogation methods are illegal, and produce unreliable information. What a bunch of Keystone Kops.
Well, guess what? If some guy in plain clothes and no warrant breaks into your house to tap your phone, you can legally shoot him.
I can’t imagine why Bush might want to spy on Roger Rabbit; but if he does, I hope he sends Ann Coulter to my burrow.
I’ll put out my furry paw and ask for a warrant, and if she doesn’t have one, I’ll give her an extra belly button!
Roger,
Well, what did we think “increased chatter” was?
I don’t have a problem with NSA ‘listening’ to communications from overseas to people in the US. Of course, they are doing this stuff. Listening is probably the least of their stealth activities.
Donna,
I am sure you are right. My definition of torture is probably a lot different than most people who post here is too!
I love McCain, but I don’t agree with him on this one. I do agree with the philosophy of the US doesn’t approve of torture, cruel and inhumane treatment. It has been a criminal offense for military personnel for years and years. Soldiers don’t torture anyone. Abu Ghraib was not and is not representative of the US military in any way shape or form.
Roger,
They are building a nuclear waste storage facility in Nevada. My Dad worked at the Nevada Test Site for years and years until Pres Clinton shut down testing…. I even took a tour of the test site, it was very interesting. When I went home to Vegas last year, I went through a new museum about the test site and the history of nuclear weapons in the US.
140
If the law requires a warrant, what’s wrong with getting a warrant? Why do it illegally, when it’s easy to do it legally?
142
Storing it at Yucca Mountain seems preferable to letting it leak into the Columbia River (or throwing it on the ground like the Russkies did).
As a hard core militant Dem, I will continue to vote for Sam Reed as long as he keeps hanging out in the reality based community. So far he is one of the few Republicans that still thinks of the State and Nation before what is good for his party. He will continue to get votes from thinking people here in King County.
When Andy from Black box voting was running for Sec of State (and still alive) we talked one night about how Sam was the hardest Repub to run against in the state since he actually listened to his critics and when he disagreed, stated why and backed up his arguments. To bad more real conservatives cannot make it through the Repub primaries in this state, they might have a chance to emulate his success.
Roger @141
Everything you said could be applied to your guy Al in 2000.
Oh, I forgot, that was the evil republicans disenfranchising people.
My bad
Mayoral challenger Freman Hendrix said Thursday that he has personal knowledge of corruption in Detroit elections — namely, the exchange of money for assistance with coercing and soliciting votes. The accusation was backed up by former Mayor Dennis Archer and other political candidates. [Not a Republican around for miles!! Gee, Democrat voter fraud?? Who would have thought??? [hehe]]
Sgmmac
The pictures I saw from Abu Ghraib showed U.S. soldiers torturing prisoners by anyone’s definition .
I understand this is not SOP, it did happen and the sooner we accept this and deal with it , the sooner we can fix this problem .Shrub finally realizes this, I hope you get the memo . Just listen for the pop . That will be the sound of your head being pulled out of your ass
I’ve heard Reed described at uSP as akin to Josef Stalin ( who COULDN’T see it???!!), but to his credit , Stefan has never called Reed a Robert Mugabe knockoff. And ,Goldy, That’s what being fair and balanced is all about in the la-la-land of WA State Republican politics.
Abu Ghraib, at least for the majority of the pictures was not torture, it was abuse and humiliation.
That is a different animal then torture.
It is not to justify anything those idiots over there did, but there is a big difference between a bunch of power trippy soldiers abusing their responsiblity and someone actually setting out to torture someone.
Dale,
The pictures I saw from Abu Ghraib weren’t torture by my definition of torture. Their actions were cruel, inhumane and above all dishonorable. I could think of over 100 horrible words to describe what those idiots did, but torture isn’t one of them. Those soldiers did violate numerous articles (laws) in the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) for which they have been and are being courts-martialed for. The female General responsible for the Abu Ghraib facility was demoted to Colonel and isn’t in the service anymore.
The Wikipedia definition of Torture is: “Torture is any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person as a means of intimidation, deterrent, revenge or punishment, or as a method for the extraction of information or confessions.”
45 days would be better, ballots by email & mail back, go online and prepare the ballot to mail (goldy), the online preparation would suit Navy personnel pretty well, most of them have internet, I don’t know about the subs though.
Comment by sgmmac— 12/15/05 @ 11:04 pm
sqmmac the mail that went to Southwest Asia was two to three months behind getting to the troops. The process is broken and as long as politicians are inhibited it will never get fixed. There is a way to complete this process using the internet, but it would require educating those who are paranoid about new technology.
The Military voters have been disenfranchised for years. The Wabbit is lock in the denial stage of his life no matter what is presented to the table.
The pictures at Abu Ghraib also showed several men attired in civilian clothes observing or directing the soldiers doing those disgusting things.
The soldiers claim that they were ordered to do those things, the UCMJ requires soldiers to NOT follow illegal orders so using that as a defense for their stupidity doesn’t relieve them of any of their legal responsibilities.
The news reports said that they were civilian contractors hired to perform intelligence tasks. They are the unknown element in Abu Ghraib. They could have very easily been CIA, NSA, or a member of any other “black ops” organization. What I have never heard reported is what happened to them or what action was taken against them. If they did in fact tell or order those soldiers to do those things, I hope they can live with themselves and I hope that some type of negative action was taken against them.
Klake,
The mail will remain broken, My friend in Iraq takes around 3 weeks, sometimes faster. It depends on the location and the soldiers’ location. Mail is not a priority, I worked in Logistics for 30 years, and I can tell you soldiers love mail, but mail is one of the lower priorities for transportation.
Thurston County has a new thing for absentees overseas, they can request their ballot online and it will be emailed to them and they mail it back. Hopefully, one day we will get to online balloting.
Roger,
Remember when I said I was cynical about anonymous sources?
This also makes me wonder:
NYT ‘SPYING’ SPLASH TIED TO BOOK RELEASE
Fri Dec 16 200 11:27:16 ET
**Exclusive**
On the front page of today’s NEW YORK TIMES, national security reporter James Risen claims that “months after the September 11 attacks, President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity without the court approved warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials.”
Risen claims the White House asked the paper not to publish the article, saying that it could jeopardize continuing investigations and alert would-be terrorists that they might be under scrutiny.
Risen claims the TIMES delayed publication of the article for a year to conduct additional reporting.
But now comes word James Risen’s article is only one of many “explosive newsbreaking” stories that can be found — in his upcoming book!
The paper failed to reveal the urgent story was tied to a book release.
“STATE OF WAR: The Secret History of the CIA and the Bush Administration” is to be published by FREE PRESS in the coming weeks, sources tell the DRUDGE REPORT.
The book editor of Bush critic Richard Clarke [AGAINST ALL ENEMIES] signed Risen to FREE PRESS.
More food for thought.
I wonder if the MSM is reporting the news or creating the news……
I need a new post from goldy so I can call righton a nazi in post one ;)
sven: Thats a tricky one; I’d say that although it makes the revelation of this very very sleazy, it doesn’t do much to invalidate it…
The guy might be a scumbag for sitting on something like that, and especially for trying to get them to delay it so he can sell more books… But it could still be true. Sounds to me like something Bush would do :p
PS: Leykis losers can bite me. There are fewer lower forms of animal around. Just above the flatworms.
PPS: MTR’s ‘3 degrees’ are soooo fake. Just like his ‘evidence’ that being female makes you stupid. He’s in the top-3 of the ‘rightie liars club’
Jesus christ. The White House goes to every length to justify torture while saying they arn’t torturing everyone. It is fact that people have been sent to other countries by intelligence services in order to obtain (unreliable) information through sick and depraved torture. In fact it has been revealed that the prime source for the “al qaeda-iraq” connection was (FALSE) information extracted from an al qaeda operative in such a fashion. We also know that much of the same policies were followed at abu ghraib, guantanamo bay, and other less known detention facilities in places like afghanistan. It is strongly suspected that there is a network of secret prisons that we don’t even know what goes on there.
we know the bush administration obtained legal justifications for acts of torture, even extreme and depraved ones.
If anyone ever actually experienced or saw a ‘water boarding’ i think they would agree that it was torture.
I challenge anyone to show any plusses of the I Can’t Believe It’s Not Torture-brand Torture going on.
it is a moral black hole which degrades the whole human race.
I wont justify torture Shoe.
But I also recognize that if I found out the had tortured someone and obtained information that prevented an attack that would have killed me or my loved ones, I’m selfish and hypocritical enough i wouldn’t condemn it.
Its a moral quagmire for sure.
Windie,
I don’t doubt that it was true. The key argument is going to hinge on what is considered unreasonable under the circumstances, and in post 911 america, that is not an easy concept to identify. yes, this shrieks of rights abuses, but then again, what if as above they save lives?
I hate the ends justification arguments, but as I said, I am not sure I can bring myself to be outraged if they save lives.
I admit, I am in a moral prediciment here.
Sven: I think its a safe rule of government… If the government takes something away, its not gonna give it back…
Windie,
Yea, like taxes.
But again, I am cynic and believe this has been going on for years anyway, pre 911.
The government back as far as you care to research does pretty much what it wants, regardless of the party affiliation.
So I guess my feeling is that there is nothing new to the allegations, so they dont outrage me much.
To all of you BushCo apologists; When is “enough”, enough!? I am beginning to believe that Bushco could wipe his ass on the Constitution, and you would still defend him. This is not the Nation I swore to defend. This is starting to feel like pre-WWII Germany. If you are truly a Republican, you need to stop and THINK, ferchrissakes…
Windie,
That is a valid fear, however, it is up to the people to ensure that our rights are maintained. Rights are taken away by Republicans and Democrats. Individual rights are being trampled on all over this state by the entrenched Democrats in Olympia. If you aren’t worried about your individual property rights, you should be. With the recent Supreme Court decision, thousands and thousands of people all across America are being thrown out of their businesses and homes by greedy city councils whose sole desire is to develop.
The FBI, CIA, NSA, and whatever other “black ops” agency we have didn’t just go crazy when Bush was elected. They have been doing this crap for years. Do you really believe that US agents haven’t gone to foreign countries and spied, kidnapped, tortured, or killed? Why do you think covert agents want to remain covert?
When you think you are above the law, you are the lawless.
…and I would like to thank the courageous Senators who stood up to BushCo and stopped the “Patriot Act” from becoming permanent!
Individual rights and freedoms are not set in stone, they are balanced against the rights of others and the rights of the many.
sgmmac = just another BushCo apologist. braindead.
@170 you see, that’s the problem. Individual rights ARE set in stone, moron! Ever hear of the Constitution?
Didn’t the patriot act pass originally 98-1-1? Its a partisan issue now, but the democrats loved it then.
And present issue is not dead, the rebuplicans just lack a supermajority to defeat a threatened fillibuster. We shall see what the back room dealing gets…
Its also interesting how much of a hotbed issue it is, since very little of it was new law, only application of existing laws to terrorism.
The constitution is constantly subject to interpretation.
Goldy: Reed’s “reasonable and modest reforms” make it easier to fraudulently register and fraudulently count the ballots! No wonder you like them.
sgmac@sven: The fact that they’ve done it in the past doesn’t mean we shouldn’t object now. We should *always* object to stuff like this, and try to stop it.
Also, if you don’t think the Bush Admin. isn’t unusually willing to abridge civil rights, you’e not paying attention.
re: the patriot act, there should be ‘cooling off period’ after things like 9/11. Wonder how many stupid/insane laws get passed after disasters?
The story here (to me) isn’t that the dems have turned against the Patriot act… but rather that so many Reps haven’t
Fire One,
I know full well what the US Constitution is, I also swore to defend it many times just like you! I do not apologize for Bush, I don’t like a lot of things that our federal government does. I don’t like a lot of things that our State government does.
I just lost my right to smoke, this year I might lose my right to talk on a cell phone while I am driving my car, I don’t have the right to leave my trash can out on the street the day after the trash is picked up, I don’t have the right to paint my house that I paid 200 hundred thousand dollars for without getting “permission” first.
Now, talk to me about individual rights!
Windie,
I agree with the objections…. my comment “When you are above the law, you are lawless.”
Sgmmac, I’ve probably just missed it, in which case I’m sorry.
If I may ask, where do you stand on the Patriot act?
Windie,
As far as the war in Iraq and the patriot act, the sea wind change on the part of some democrats has been disappointing. They have certainly shifted their psoitions, and it appears they either were pandering the public outrage against the terrorists in 2001 or they are pandering the publics unhappiness with the war now.
Please dont misconstrue my belief about the wiretaps and such, and imply that I do not believe that certain things should not be allowed. they shouldn’t. I just think the outrage against this administrations is somewhat misplaced because they are no worse then previous ones
The problem is the culture in Washington DC, not just this adminstration. What has changed is the informatoin techonolgy which a) provides them better tools and b) provides critics more tools to catch them.
As more information surfaces on this, we shall see where it goes. I still await actual coraboration, not “sources say”
BREAKING NEWS – EXTREMELY URGENT – KING 5 NEWS REPORTS NUCLEAR EXPLOSION IN ST. PETERSBURG, RUSSIA
Comment by Roger Rabbit — 12/15/05 @ 10:36 pm [Where are Green Peace and the Seirra Club?? Shouldn’y they be staging a “die in” to “protest the evil Bush capitalists”? Oh…….It happened in socialist Russia???? [Never mind!!!!]
Sven @180 I think you are thinking of the Democrats relationship to the Patriot Act in a completely wrong-headed manner.
Just looking at the 2001 vote, it did pass 98-1 and that should tell you something right there. This was not a normal vote on the merits of the bill. You could hold a vote on the Star Spangled Banner and get more nays than that!
Rather, the Bush Administration came to the Congress and said all of these measures where absolutely necessary or the country would suffer more attacks. Then they give it with the ridiculous Orwellian title of USA Patriot Act and schedule a vote on it with so short of a delay that most in Congress never even got a chance to read it.
So, as a Senator – Republican or Democrat – what are you going to do? Are you going to support the president when the US had just been attacked by terrorists? If you can fault the Democrats for anything it is in trusting Bush.
Since then, he has shown that he is not worthy of that trust. He has lied or deceived on matters of national security repeatedly and it is time to restore the checks and balances that make our system of government work.
Windie,
I am ‘iffy’ on the patriot act itself. There are things I like and things I don’t like. If it prevents terrorist attacks in the US, if Congress does their job and provides vigorous oversight, I like it on a temporary basis. Those 13 provisions that they just voted to let expire, are a slippery slope for our rights and they need to be checked on their worthliness and debated and approved or not approved for a specified time.
As for what happened this morning, it pisses me off! The partisian nonsense in our Senate is an outrage. What are we paying these 50 Senators to do? The only thing they are accomplishing is grandstanding, pandering to their bases, and campaigning for themselves and their party. They are dysfunctional.
Windie,
My response is hiding in the filter.
Right now, I would vote to throw all 50 Senators out of Washington, if given the choice. Their job is to work together to pass laws and take care of their states and their country and they are not doing that.
Nin
No excuse. The “i didnt read it” excuse is inexcusable.
I admit the acronym USA Patriot was cheesy, and feel good, but the fact remains that they made a choice tovote yes on it. Excusing that by making excuses now is wrong. This also ties in to the people who publically proclaimed things about Iraq fully in step with Bush, but now claim he lied. It’s insulting.
And speaking of lies, show me a few Bush has made. I dislike many of his policies, but the whole Bush Lied thing is weak politics.
smmmac – you NEVER had a “right” to smoke. As soon as you signed the community covenants, you signed away your “right” to paint your house. Glad youre so pissed about the “big” things, but the torture, the patriot act, the illegal war, all that crap, well, we’ll just give it a pass…. BushCo Apologist. And as to the Pat Act, I applauded the courageous Senators that defeated it! I didn’t say anything about those who originally passed it. Learn to read.
Fire-
Illegal war. How so?
Patriot act- What dont you liek about it. feel free to be verbose.
Senators who passed it: Of course its an issue. They loved it then, hate it now.
The ban on torture they passed 91-9. Will that be a mistake later on that you will dismss as well?
The UN Convention against Torture, which we signed
“For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.“
Sven @ 186
I have a “Bush lied:”
President Bush (and a WHOLE bunch of other GOP bigshots, but definitely Bush) says Congress saw the SAME intelligence he did in the lead-up to the war in Iraq. So Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) asked the non-partisan Congressional Research Service to look into the matter and report back whether or not what the president said is true. They reported back today. The verdict: not true.
More from the UN Convention Against Torture….hmm, did I link to that?
“Each State Party shall undertake to prevent in any territory under its jurisdiction other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture as defined in article 1, when such acts are committed by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. In particular, the obligations contained in articles 10, 11, 12 and 13 shall apply with the substitution for references to torture or references to other forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.“
More “Bush lies?” Decide for yourself.
Thats not a lie at all unless you can show that the daily briefs showed something substantively different then what was given to the Senate Intelligence committee and congress at a whole.
There was a summary report given to congress about the war, 90% didnt read it. Fienstien to her credit did.
That fact is that while specific reports may not have made their way to everyone, on the whole, the information they contained was in briefings or subsequent reports.
To make this into a lie, you must demostrate that a) certain intelligence was deliberately withheld and b) that specific intelliegence was substantially different then what was allowed, and would have changed perceptions in congress had they seen it, otherwise its exclusion is a difference that makes no difference.
Now…should said information surface, and show that Bush withheld information as I described that would have made such a huge difference, I will be the first to call him a liar.
I might even buy a magnet at that point….
First, we do recognize that a lie is a deliberate mistatement right?
Just checking.
Lie #1
Not necessarily a lie, more faulty infomration. Its only a lie if Bush had specifc knowledge it was faulty when he said it.
Lie #2
Not a lie, the british government stands by that report to date. The report on Niger this references was unlrelated.
Lie #3
Not a lie, that was the consensus of several intelligence communities.
Lie #4
Not a lie, there were contacts and meetings between Iraqi Security personnel and Al Qaeda representatives.
Lie #5
While critics claim it is unproven, it has never been disproven. Terrorist camps existed in Iraq.
Lie #6
Not a lie, he didnt say they were going to launch them from Iraq. They could be launched off shore, from Mexico or Canada. They did exist and were probable threat.
Lie #7
Did you know we have found 1500 gallons of chemical agents? That some of the chemicals found and dismissed as pesticides are what some nerve agents are made out of? And this is not a lie anyway unless you can verify that Bush knew that they didnt have them when they said it. Bad information is not a lie.
Lie #8
Not a lie, as that was the belief, and storage facilites existed where they were beleived to be. Again, this is either a case of not found *yet* or its a case of bad intel, not a lie.
Lie #9
Said statements were beleived to be true by all intelligence agencies at the time. Again, bad intel.
Lie #10
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/.....index.html Such was the belief at the time. Being wrong is not a lie. Not to mention no one has said they could not have been used that way, only that it appeared unlikely
190,
I have a post in the filter about the Intel, but I also have this:
http://factcheck.org/article358.html
The President’s main point is correct: the CIA and most other US intelligence agencies believed before the war that Saddam had stocks of biological and chemical weapons, was actively working on nuclear weapons and “probably” would have a nuclear weapon before the end of this decade. That faulty intelligence was shared with Congress – along with multiple mentions of some doubts within the intelligence community – in a formal National Intelligence Estimate just prior to the Senate and House votes to authorize the use of force against Iraq.
The intelligence to which Bush refers is contained in a top-secret document that was made available to all members of Congress in October 2002, days before the House and Senate voted to authorize Bush to use force in Iraq. This so-called National Intelligence Estimate was supposed to be the combined US intelligence community’s “most authoritative written judgment concerning a specific national security issue,” according to the Senate Intelligence Committee. The report was titled “Iraq’s Continuing Programs for Weapons of Mass Destruction.”
Read the whole report, it is interesting. it also addresses the Bush lied accusations.
No hard evidence has surfaced to support claims that Bush somehow manipulated the findings of intelligence analysts. In fact, two bipartisan investigations probed for such evidence and said they found none. So Dean’s claim that intelligence was “corrupted” is unsupported.
Sven @186 First on Bush’s lies and deceptions…
In my house, intentionally deceiving someone – even if you do not technically say anything untrue – counts as a lie. Now we can play lawyer and split hairs over what the meaning of the words mushroom cloud, torture, and connections between Iraq and al-Qaeda
But ok, if you want to take that word off the table then will you at least concede the broader point that Bush has repeatedly engaged in rhetoric which he knew to be deceitful?
Do we really need to rehash all the evidence for what he knew and when you knew it regarding the lack of connections between Iraq, al-Qaeda and 9/11? The lies and forgeries surrounding his claims – made in the State of the Union! – about Iraq’s supposed nuclear program? How about saying we knew exactly where all those WMD’s were and that all we had to do was go get them?
This war was decided upon long before 9/11 for a neo-con plan(?) to remake the Middle East and Bush just cynically used 9/11 to sell it to the American people. Frankly, I can think of no greater betrayal of trust.
All politicians engage in rhetoric, thats a mainstay.
I have yet to see any proof that he did so knowingly to decieve.
I have seen nothing to support accusations of his intentional imperialism.
The accusations about his lies have been soundly refuted by the 2 911 commissions and by Fact Check. Not sure why the democrats wont move on. This is a losing argument.
All politicians engage in rhetoric, thats a mainstay.
Apologetics for a politician who desired to wage a war of choice against an enemy who was no imminent threat to this country and used deceitful tactics to get his way.
Gulf of Tonkin anyone?
Sven = apologist for GOP warmongers, torturers, and liars
Clue,
I am not. I am simply forcing you to actually demosntrate proof to your accusations.
Two commissions have found no evidence of any deliberate misrepresentations by Bush.
So, show me the proof?
147
“I am sure you are right. My definition of torture is probably a lot different than most people who post here is too!”
My definition of torture includes having to listen to anything that comes out of Bush’s mouth.
Roger,
Nope.
152
“Everything you said could be applied to your guy Al in 2000. Oh, I forgot, that was the evil republicans disenfranchising people. My bad”
Does it give you a warm glow to know your guy eked out his 537-vote margin only because your party threw 57,700 black voters off the Florida rolls by falsely accusing them of being felons?
Are your bed sheets fitting comfortably today? How do they keep you warm in this cold weather we’re having? Does the KKK sell insulated bedsheets for their winter rallies?
156
“Abu Ghraib, at least for the majority of the pictures was not torture, it was abuse and humiliation.”
Bullshit. Over 100 deaths of prisoners in U.S. custody are now being investigated as possible homicides. Do you keep a photo of Hitler in your bedroom, you fucking apologist?
And that’s only the deaths we know about. Who knows how many detainees our government has killed, or what means of torture were used to killed them. You’re a fucking apologist for a banana republic government.
162
Typical wingnut tactic — when a news story reveals that you guys behave like Nazis, you try to deflect attention by making ad hominem attacks against the author or witness. Fuck you! Sven, you’re no independent, and you’re no moderate. You’re as wingnut as they come. You’re every inch the same fascist as the rest of the rightwing trollfucks on this board. Fuck you, you unpatriotic America-hating sewer slime creep!
Roger,
More attacks. how quaint. It is interesting how one moment yo can be the most rational and intelligent poster here, and the next you are reduced to overgeneralization, ad hom attacks and baseless attacks.
I don’t get it.
To answer you about the 57746 felons.
First they were not all black:
57,746 voters were listed as felons on a “scrub list” and removed from the voting rolls, but later analysis shows that many were incorrectly listed.
Many, not all.
In some cases, those on the scrub list were given several months to appeal, and many successfully reregistered and were allowed to vote.
So not all were discenfranchised.
And even if your faulty prepresentation that they were all black, all wrongly removed and all would have voted democrat was true, it cant even be proven that anyone had a clue the elction would be close enough that 57k vote margin would make a difference.
This is a case of sour grapes and accusations long after the fact. And it isnt even accurate.
Hearing you criticise the republicans for the Rossi Gregoire debate also points out a severe double standard.
Finally your accusations about me being KKK is not even worth responding to. It’s a childish excercise in insults, and frankly my 15 year old daughter can argue more presuasively without resorting to name calling.
Pathetic. I respect a lot of your information, but honestly, if you have to resport to name calling, it makes me wonder.
205
all I did was post another story about it.
if the authors information is valid, it will be proven so.
I am allowed to express my skepticism without your permission or approval jack.
And your continued necessity to resort to insults marks you as unable to make a decent argument, and also a hypocrite since you are doing what you accuse me of:
… making ad hominem attacks against the author
Gonna call my momma names too?
203/204
I referenced the pictures and was specific to aby ghraib.
I said nothing about any abuse anywhere else, no any deaths.
Any deaths should be fully investigated.
Any abuse should be punished, as it is being done now.
Try to stay on topic to my actual statements, its much more productive.
I said: The pictures shown from Abu Ghraib consisted mostly of humiliation and abuse, not torture.
Its a fact. And it was wrong, and the people who did it should go to jail. and alot of them have.
I didn’t check to see that we were carrying on the Abu Ghraib conversation…..
I believe there were a couple of deaths being investigated there. Up above I was only talking about the stupid picture stuff. There were “secret prisoners” there, or in other facilities that the soldiers weren’t around. Their names were not even on any rosters or lists of prisoners.
The soldiers who worked at Abu Ghraib were from a Guard or Reserve unit from West Virginia. I don’t know their command structure, but the highest rank that I heard was being punished was a Staff Sergeant, and then the General. It concerns me that no senior non-commissioned officers or junior officers have ever been discussed as being responsible or punished. It begs the question, where was their First Sergeant, their Command Sergeant Major, and their Company Commander?
They have courts-martialed the soldiers that were responsible at Abu Ghraib and one General Officer. I have not heard that the leadership between the soldiers and the General were punished, nor have I heard anything about the civilian contractors or Black ops guys getting a responsibility check.
SG, good points. They need to be in jail too, any one responsible.
Sven
NIE my ass. Bush said the Congress had access to the SAME intel hew did, and the CRS establishes without a doubt that this is NOT TRUE. The president knows everything that the CRS knows, so he KNEW is wasn’t true. Ergo, a lie.
BTW, what I get from Merriam-Webster (http://www.m-w.com) is:
Lie
1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2 : to create a false or misleading impression
Next to your responses to the top 10 list. I only briefly scanned it before linking, but I already know that your response is indocorrect in several places.
Lie #1
Not necessarily a lie, more faulty infomration. Its only a lie if Bush had specifc knowledge it was faulty when he said it.
What, Presdent Bush doesn’t KNOW what his Department of Energy says about the “evidence” he is using to justify committing American troops to war? If he DIDN’T know, he is criminally stupid, which in my opinion is even worse. But I think we have to assume that the BUCK STOPS ON THE PRESIDENT’S DESK when it comes to him claiming that a threat to the US exists when one does not.
Lie #2
Not a lie, the british government stands by that report to date. The report on Niger this references was unlrelated.
Tenet got the President to tzake the SAME claim out of his octber 200 speech in Cinscinnati. the White House later admitted that including this statement in the SOTU was “a mistake,” but of course our POTUS has never taken responsibility for disseminating this “mistake” as fact to Amreica. Also, French intelligence warned us that this claim was false a YEAR before the SOTU. The British claim has never been substantiated by any evidence. So significant doubt AT THE VERY LEAST exists on this matter, but the President tells us only one side to create a misleadign impression. Hmmm, where have I heard that phrase before?
Lie #3
Not a lie, that was the consensus of several intelligence communities.
Give me a break. Boston globe reporting:
Of course, this was Cheney, not Bush.
Lie #4
Not a lie, there were contacts and meetings between Iraqi Security personnel and Al Qaeda representatives.
Umm, who? And were the people in the “contacts and meetings” to which YOU are referring being trained in “bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases?” Yeah, I didn’t think so. The meetings you are talking about (incidentally, the same meetings about which the 9/11 commission concluded “they do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship.”) were not the same as the “intelligence” of the bomb-making, etc. which were extracted under torture and later recanted. BTW, I’m hoping you’re not reviving the whole “Atta met with Iraqi security in Prague” was known to be untrue long before 2002.
Lie #5
While critics claim it is unproven, it has never been disproven. Terrorist camps existed in Iraq.
Ansar al-Islam was located in territory not controlled by and hostile to Saddam. This was ALSO known at the time. But what the f*uck are you saying? It has never been DISproven? is that our bar? Claim what you want, and if no colclusive proof appears proving you wrong in time, you can commit 150K troops and spend $2000 billion on your friends?
Lie #6
Not a lie, he didnt say they were going to launch them from Iraq. They could be launched off shore, from Mexico or Canada. They did exist and were probable threat.
To make them a “probable threat,” wouldn’t, in a reasonable world, one be required to show that one of the scenarios to which you refer was not only likely but that operational plans were in place to do this? mexicans who would say that they had been approached? Land purchased? Somehting? NOTHING. It would be possible to launch them from Canada, too. Was it the Great Northern Threat? Fuck, no, and don’t be disingenuous by making claims the administration did NOT make.
Oh, and Iraqi drones were crude and had virtually no payload capability. So what were they going to deliver?
Lie #7
Did you know we have found 1500 gallons of chemical agents? That some of the chemicals found and dismissed as pesticides are what some nerve agents are made out of? And this is not a lie anyway unless you can verify that Bush knew that they didn’t have them when they said it. Bad information is not a lie.
Again, intention to mislead IS a lie. 1500 gallons of pesticies are not “chemical and biological weapons,” they aren’t “weaponized”, and they are not “command and control arrangements.” they’re pesticides. They “prove” none of what bush claimed. And it is true that “Despite a massive nationwide search by U.S. and British forces, there are no signs, traces or examples of chemical weapons being deployed in the field, or anywhere else during the war.” Weapons, not chemicals thatr exist in every industrialized nation. and by February 2003 we had inspectors conducting intrusive inspections in Iraq verifying that there were NO weapons, NO precursors, and NO programs. Intention to mislead? YES. Lie. YES.
Lie #8
Not a lie, as that was the belief, and storage facilites existed where they were beleived to be. Again, this is either a case of not found *yet* or its a case of bad intel, not a lie.R
It WAS the belief that the agents Saddam possessed in 1991 were still around. However, their effective life is FAR under 10 years. Again, we had inspectors conducting intrusive inspections in Iraq verifying that there were NO weapons, NO precursors, and NO programs. Intention to mislead? YES. Lie. YES. We have OWNED that fuclking country for three years an you’re saying not found *yet*? What kind of fool are you?
Lie #9
Said statements were beleived to be true by all intelligence agencies at the time. Again, bad intel.
Do you even recall both the administraton and prominent Republicans complaining pre-war that the CIA was UNDERestimating the threat from iraq? Bad intel, my ass. Excuse-of-the-month club. And it’s not true that agencies thought this. Rumslfed later apologized for saying something this stupid. However, that damage, the intentional misleading, had been done already, right? Lie? YES.
Lie #10
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/.....index.html Such was the belief at the time. Being wrong is not a lie. Not to mention no one has said they could not have been used that way, only that it appeared unlikely
That was the FERVENT bewlief of the war’s promoters. It was certainly NOT the belief of a sizable portion of the intel community, but THEIR viewpoint was somehow left out of the administrion’s presentations. And this ewas the intelligence we got from “Curveball,” whom the Germans had already told us was untrustworthy. Misleading intentionally? yes. Lie? Yes.
Sven @ 199
ven @ 199
Wrong. Two commissions have specifically NOT been tasked with nor allowed to look at how the administration used the intelligence they obtained. All either of them have claimed is that the adminsitration did not “pressure” analysts to give them specific intel.
Sven = apologist for GOP lies
@211 Bush said the Congress had access to the SAME intel hew did, and the CRS establishes without a doubt that this is NOT TRUE.
Having written many of those documents myself, and noting the addressees, I can tell you for a fact that it is true. Congress doesn’t get it’s intelligence from the White House, it gets it from the agencies just like the White House does, and it has access to the same information.
@123
“go take a flying fuck”
Does this mean I’m going for a ride on a plane carrying a cargo of female bunnies? :D :D :D
161
If soldiers like something, the Army is against it.
Hey Sgt. Mac — if the torture was individual acts by rogue soldiers, why did White House counsel Gonzales write a legal memo arguing torture was legal?
166
“I admit, I am in a moral prediciment here. Comment by Sven— 12/16/05 @ 9:29 am”
It’s more accurate to say you’re morally challenged.
217
That is usually the case. Reminds me of a story about chicken & bread in Saudi during the first gulf war.
176
“The constitution is constantly subject to interpretation. Comment by Sven— 12/16/05 @ 10:05 am”
Careful, Sven. A remark like this could get you purged from rightwingdom.
206
Your momma is ugly and wears combat boots.
Roger,
So that they could deal with the high value prisoners that are in Guantanamo, Afganistan and various other places where the interrogations are not being done by soldiers. There are some soldiers in some of thoseplaces but they aren’t the primary interrogators. The CIA was all over Afganistan. It was CIA agents who had Walker (American Taliban guy). I think you and I had a conversation about something related to this awhile back. Rumsfield and the new JCS had a little exchange in a press conference about torture. Rumsfield said that if soldiers SAW torture that they would be obligated to report it. The JCS interrupted him and said that if soldiers saw torture that they would be obligated to stop it and report it.
Rumsfield said no and the JCS again said soldiers are obligated under the UCMJ to stop it and report it. The JCS is of course correct.
Roger,
I am not totally convinced that those soldiers were ‘rogues.’
They claimed they were ordered to do it by the intelligence guys there. The female General claimed that she was told that she wasn’t in charge, that the intelligence guys were in charge. Those claims may be accurate, unfortunately for them the UCMJ still holds all of the rogues responsible for their actions whether or not they were ordered to do it. You cannot order a subordinate in the Army to shoot a innocent baby. It is clearly an illegal order and soldiers can’t follow illegal orders.
There is also a training issue with some Guard and Reserve units. Some are very poorly trained and equipped. It is hard to maintain proficiency when you only go to a drill 2 weeks a year. The hidden golden apple in the recent conflicts is that the Guard and Reserve are getting trained. They are better right now overall than they ever have been. I am not sure that any of those soldiers really knew any better. Their supervisors did though.
RR @214
Sven = apologist for GOP lies
Oh come on. That was not the case, but soon enough you could become a campaign aide! Is that what you are aiming for? I would think it is a downgrade from government lawyer, but what do I know? Hell, you just pointed out I claimed the Revolution was illegal…The Democrats need you, RR! Become a campaign aide! You can continue to spin the snippets as you interpret them…
Michael @ 218
Well then I’ll be sure to believe YOU and not the Congressional Research Service. Not.
Sven @ 98 “All politicians engage in rhetoric, thats a mainstay. I have yet to see any proof that he did so knowingly to decieve. I have seen nothing to support accusations of his intentional imperialism.
The accusations about his lies have been soundly refuted by the 2 911 commissions and by Fact Check. Not sure why the democrats wont move on. This is a losing argument.”
Sven – You seem like a reasonable guy who gets his information from a bad source – Fox News. (There is a reason that studies have shown the most misinformed people get there information there…)
Let me lay out a few points which by necessity are going to have to be brief.
First – I propose we move from whether Bush technically ‘lied’ to whether or not there is a pattern of deceit waged on the American people to get them to support a war on grounds that were factually untrue.
Second – Arguing over what is in Bush’s head is not the point. By your reasoning we could never know if Bush ‘lied’ because it is all in the intent and we can only get that from inside his own head.
So Sven, would you count it as wrong/deceitful/lying if a president continually gave his audience the impression that there was a connection between Iraq and 9/11 in order to justify a war? Even if he technically didn’t lie, if his rhetoric was intended to deceive on the most sacred trust given to a president doesn’t it count?
Now, in Bush’s big speech kicking off the PR campaign for the Iraq war, in 2002 in Cincinnati he said:
“There is a reason [to invade Iraq]. We have experienced the horror of September 11. We have seen that those who hate America are willing to crash airplanes into buildings full of innocent people. Our enemies would be no less willing — in fact they would be eager — to use a biological, or chemical, or a nuclear weapon.
Knowing these realities, America must not ignore the threat gathering against us. Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof — the smoking gun — that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud.â€
Does he SAY Iraq has a nuclear bomb? No. But he sure as heck implies it and any reader who does not know the truth that the evidence for Iraq’s nuclear program had been discredited or shown to be Italian forgeries that the White House pushed as real.
I could go on and on with these examples but just think of how many times he links 9/11 and the Iraq war together with the simple phrase “Iraq is the central front of the war on terror.†What is that meant to convey? What terrorism exactly has Iraq been linked to? If he means the Palestinians then we are going to be very busy invading every Arab country there is…
I’ll break here and move on in the next post.
Now, what if the president is VERY careful not to actually lie, but to deceive while flooding the airways with his cronies who actually are spreading lies? Does that count?
Bill Kristol on National Public Radio (9/12/2001) â€I think Iraq is, actually, the big, unspoken sort of elephant in the room today. There’s a fair amount of evidence that Iraq has had very close associations with Osama bin Laden in the past, a lot of evidence that it had associations with the previous effort to destroy the World Trade Center (in 1993)â€. http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=19255
Perhaps Bush didn’t know… perhaps, as he claimed yesterday, he knew 9/11 and Iraq were not connected. So why then start up the campaign to invade Iraq less than a week after 9/11?
“On Sept. 17, 2001, six days after the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, President Bush signed a 21/2-page document marked “TOP SECRET” that outlined the plan for going to war in Afghanistan as part of a global campaign against terrorism.
Almost as a footnote, the document also directed the Pentagon to begin planning military options for an invasion of Iraq, senior administration officials said.†Washington Post Sunday, January 12, 2003
No connection between Iraq and 9/11 eh?
Finally you say that two bipartisan commissions have exonerated Bush from lying or mishandling evidence. This I take it is from Fox News and factcheck.org, yes?
It is a little unclear to me from factcheck.org who they are talking about, but right-wing news usually argues that the 9/11 Commission and the Senate Intelligence Committee both looked at the issue and found nothing wrong. (If I have this wrong let me know…)
In both cases, it turns out that they never looked at the issue of Bush’s handling of pre-war intelligence and that they were in fact prohibited from doing so.
I could go all through the minute details, but perhaps you remember the Democrats having to shut down the Senate so the Republicans would actually honor their promise of eventually getting to look examining the pre-war intelligence. Here is a brief summary of events…
“Committee Vice Chairman John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.) began inquiring about the evidence against Iraq one week before U.S. troops invaded in March 2003. His interest was sparked by revelations that the Bush administration gave forged documents to U.N. weapons inspectors to support allegations that Iraq had sought to buy a key ingredient for nuclear weapons from the West African nation of Niger.
Roberts resisted a full investigation for three months. But in June 2003, when it became increasingly apparent that no weapons of mass destruction were being found in Iraq, the committee agreed to look into the intelligence cited in the administration’s case for war. In February 2004, senators agreed to a second phase that would investigate the Bush administration’s use of intelligence and examine public statements made by key policymakers about the threat posed by Iraq.
In July 2004, the committee issued the first phase of its bipartisan report, which found the U.S. intelligence community had assembled a deeply flawed and exaggerated assessment of Saddam Hussein’s weapons capabilities. The second phase was to focus on the administration’s deliberations over the intelligence or how it was used. Sources familiar with the committee’s work said there has been little examination of these topics to date.â€
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....t/article/
2005/11/01/AR2005110101037.html
Now listen carefully next time you hear this on Fox News. They will usually not say that Bush was exhonorated, but rather that ‘two bipartisan committees found no evidence that Bush lied.’ See the deceit? They found no evidence because they didn’t look for it! Very clever… but still a lie in my house.
Ack… Sven, my first post in those three got hung up in the filter so it may not make sense read in the order they showed up here. Sorry for any confusion.
ROGER
YOU KEEP SAYING YOU WERE IN NAM WHAT PX DID YOU WORK IN THATS RIGHT I FORGOT LADIES WEAR.