[NWPT48]I concluded my post-ruling analysis by demanding that Dino Rossi apologize for taking his meritless election contest to trial. But of course, I’m just a partisan blogger, so it’s nice to see a respected political commentator like The Seattle Weekly’s George Howland Jr. open his post-ruling coverage with the same demand (“A Fraudulent Finish.”)
Republican Dino Rossi should have apologized to Washington state. On Monday, June 6, after seven months of irresponsible rhetoric and fruitless litigation by his lawyers and spinmeisters, Rossi finally ended his bid for the governorship. He did not, however, take personal responsibility for his headline-grabbing, whiny, and expensive litigation. Instead, Rossi took a page out of the playbook of U.S. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, making an ad hominem attack on the integrity of the state’s highest court. It was as baseless as the rest of his legal arguments and should serve as a reminder that Rossi is deeply wedded to the radical right-wing agenda emanating from D.C.
It has been suggested to me that I should go easy on Rossi for his comments immediately following Judge Bridges’ decision, as he must have been speaking from a deep state of personal disappointment.
Bullshit.
For Rossi to have been deeply disappointed would have required a reasonable expectation that he might have prevailed Monday morning, an expectation that could only have been born out of ignorance, idiocy or ideology. It’s not that I have ever considered Rossi to be the most informed, intelligent or open-minded of candidates, but he isn’t stupid, and if his high-priced attorneys had left him with the impression that he should be measuring for curtains in the Governor’s Mansion, then he should sue them for malpractice. Perhaps the only thing legally surprising about Judge Bridges’ decision was its severity. As Howland reports:
The complete legal rout delivered by the judge came as no surprise to Seattle University law professor John Strait. “It’s pretty much what I would have expected,” says Strait. “I’m not sure that the Republicans ever thought they would reverse the results of the election. This was an organizing tool for them.”
An organizing tool for the state GOP, but I’m not so sure it will turn out to be such a great boost to Rossi’s political career. Had he bowed out gracefully in early January — at a time when the GOP’s most inflammatory allegations were at a fever pitch — he could have assumed the mantle of a martyr who sacrificed his own personal ambitions for the good of the state. Disenfranchised military voters, shady “enhanced” ballots, mishandled provisionals, and felon, dead, and double voters would have forever clouded the results of this election. But now with the charges “dismissed with prejudice” by a cherry-picked judge in conservative Chelan County, voters will be rightly suspicious of any attempt by Rossi to brand himself as a victim of corrupt Democrats. To the swing voters — mostly Democrats — who made this race closer than it ever should have been, the allegations are no longer merely unproved… they are disproved.
As to the party faithful, for whom no amount of evidence or common sense could ever refute the cult of the stolen election, it will be a long four years until Rossi’s inevitable rematch with Gov. Christine Gregoire. A reliable source assures me that it is “100%” certain that Rossi will not challenge Ron Sims for King County Executive. And other sources and circumstances assure me that a US Senate bid is nearly as unlikely. Indeed, the very fact that his campaign staff is finally disbanding, is as strong an indication as any that Rossi’s next race sits well beyond the 2005 or 2006 campaign seasons.
Rossi and his surrogates have made a lot of shrewd PR moves in their efforts to position him for his next campaign, but his Monday evening “concession speech” was not one of them. Rather than issuing an apologia for ending the contest, he should have issued an apology for bringing it.
Don’t talk about disenfranchised military. My son got his WA absentee ballot in Iraq the day of the election. Many others he knew were in the same boat — and not just from WA state! He had other options, but the fact remains that the ‘official’ ballot didn’t get to him in time! Both sides of this argument have plenty to be ashamed of and we’ll see who acts in a competent way to fix the problems that were uncovered. So far I’ve seen no action from the right and action that is negative to my ideals from the left.
Dino-sore.
Usual name calling — really helps communication – not.
Rossi cannot afford to run for KC Executive. A loss there would be politically devastating for an attempt at Governor in 2008. Nope. Rossi need to run for an office he is sure to win, as a way to regain lost credibility with voters in the middle.
Don’t be surprised if you see some new bumper stickers showing up in Bellevue.
Rossi for Dog Catcher
Apologize?
Goldy said just right: “Bullshit.”
If the table were turned, I fully expect the Dems would have taken this contest all the way. It also would have been major national news since the Republican’s would have been “stealing” the election.
Until I see the Dems demand that only legal and proper votes be counted, I’ll take the mantra “Count every ballot” to be an endorsement of illegal voting.
Good Post. Now that his campaign has positioned him as a two-time loser, and a sore one at that, I can hardly wait to see their next effort. I suspect Dino is done in politics, if not now, soon, and it won’t be “done” by the Democrats. It will be his own party that does him in. He may look good to some here, but he doesn’t look all that great to the rest of the country (I’m from the red Midwest). They have their own Repubs they want to support on the national scene. (Actually, this is analgous to the time when Gary Locke was perceived to have national possibilities – he didn’t look that great to the rest of the country). Gary and Dino should have a beer. Marilyn
So far I’ve seen no action from the right and action that is negative to my ideals from the left.
What actions from the left are you referring to?
Goldy, sorry, i’m falling down laughing, once again you concoct some gems
“a respected political commentator like The Seattle Weekly’s George Howland Jr.”
Sick @ 1
“My son got his WA absentee ballot in Iraq the day of the election.”
Since he only needed it postmarked by election day, your son was not disenfranchised.
“He had other options, but the fact remains that the ‘official’ ballot didn’t get to him in time! Both sides of this argument have plenty to be ashamed of and we’ll see who acts in a competent way to fix the problems that were uncovered.”
First, please recognize that so long as absentee ballots must be shipped internationally, and, in some cases, into military “hot spots”, there will be problems. That is why your son’s friends from other states also had problems getting their ballots. Let’s not blame King County for that.
Of course, the single most important way to improve the chances of overseas ballots arriving on time would be to mail them out earlier. Right now, an earlier mailing deadline is restricted by the late primary dates in Washington. If an election dispute ever arises in the primaries, kiss that race goodbye for the absentee ballots.
I suggest you reevaluate your statement that “So far I’ve seen no action from the right and action that is negative to my ideals from the left.”
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t the Democrats propose moving the primary to an earlier date, only to have the Republicans (with the help of a small number of Democrats) block that measure? Really isn’t the truth that there has been action by the left only to have it blocked by the right?
For Another TJ:
Just one as an example and I won’t debate it here.
Motor Voter. Need proof of citizenship when registering to vote and valid picture ID when voting. As far as I’m concerned, promoting the current system is promoting making it easier to vote illegally. That’s what I believe and I’ve never heard an argument from the left that even comes close to changing my mind.
That’s it.
Keep dreaming that moderates are impressed by the dems, MSM, and the court outcome dipshits. I have not met a single inpedendent that thinks Rossi was unjustified in bringing suit, or that is more likely to support Dems now. In fact, just the opposite … most of my independent friends are looking at just how strong the dem machine is here in the state and they are backing away from it. Even several friends that I would characterize as extremely liberal (one who was a dem observer at the recounts) are having a hard time with illegal ballots being removed from the final counts but not the candidates counts. This was a completely hollow victory for the dems, because the wicked taste it is leaving in the mouths of ALL the consistuencies in the state … except for the looney left fringe.
I’d love to reach across the aisle and shake hands w/the Reps. Hey, no hard feelings…Riiight! This time I’ve got an electric buzzer in my palm and a big rubber hammer behind my back.
Reply to 1
Giving the right wing’s propensity for lying, I’m not sure I believe that you (a) have a son in Iraq (b) who received his WA ballot on Election Day — but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
Why are you blaming this on the State of Washington instead of the military mail system? The state doesn’t deliver mail, ma’am (or sir). And why didn’t your son ask his unit’s Voting Assistance Officer for a Federal Write In Ballot? A soldier in Iraq doesn’t even need to be a registered voter, cripes, he doesn’t even need a stamp, sheesh, he doesn’t even need to know the name of the candidate he’s voting for. All your son had to do was get the FWIB from the VAO, write “R” next to “governor,” and drop it into the company mailbag. What’s so freakin’ hard about that? Is this too difficult for someone who knows how to disassembled, clean, and reassemble and M-16?
Let’s take a little personal responsibility here.
Peremtory challenges slow down the process of voting. As long as you don’t mind Dems issuing all kinds of time-consuming challenges in Rep dists., then knock yourself out. And th etouch-screen machines will be neutralized by complaints that they are not functioning correctly. AllWE want is honesty too. You will get a strong dose of your own honesty. You can depend on it. We don’t listen to those weak sisters criticising
Sick @ 1:
He was getting shot at all day and only got the ballot at 8:00pm that night. APO is a problem.
Don’t know who proposed earlier primary. Will find out cause if it was Dems then I agree with them and if Reps killed it, I have a problem with them.
You have to understand, I think Mr. Smith may have gone to an honest man, but he didn’t prevail as in the movie. I now believe that all politicians are self-serving and not very honest or reputable (I’m trying to be civil)– from any side. My God, their job is to get themselves elected and then re-elected and the reality is that it doesn’t happen just by making their constituents content…
Wish I had the answers. I see all too many sheep in our society who do not/can not think for themselves. Our news is basically tabloid tripe and our school systems certainly leave a lot to be desired.
Enough — I have to get back to constructive activities.
Gov. Dean. We will act without their debilitating weakness.
Reply to 5
Bullshit. Gregoire nearly conceded after the first recount, and there isn’t a shadow of a doubt that she would have conceded had she lost the hand recount. She was sick of the whole business and the stress it put on her family. Remember her public admonition to Berendt that she wanted no part of a recount unless the Dems raised enough money to recount the entire state? She was within hours of conceding at that point.
When are you wingos going to stop making shit up? Guess I shouldn’t ask.
WHAT ABOUT SAM REED, GOLDY?
The Democrats aren’t asking Sam for an apology — they’re asking him for their $730,000. Sam is still camping on it even though Gregoire won the recount 6 months ago. D’ya think maybe Sam did that to handicap the Democrats in the lawsuit by tying up funds that otherwise could have been used for legal expenses? Sam isn’t exactly a non-partisan escrow holder. He appeared with the other GOP luminaries at Rossi’s original press conference demanding a revote, remember? The Democrats are demanding statutory interest of 12% on their money but the chintzy Reed is offering only 2%, what the fuck is his legal authority for that?? COUGH UP, REED, YOU STICKY-FINGERED REPUBLICAN!!! I guess these GOP jerks only respect private property rights when it’s their property and their money.
Don’t talk about disenfranchised military. My son got his WA absentee ballot in Iraq the day of the election. Many others he knew were in the same boat – and not just from WA state!
The entire point of talking about disenfranchised military ballots is that the Rethugs continually and falsely claimed that King County INTENTIONALLY mailed the ballots out late because they wanted to keep Rossi from getting more votes. And that’s total BULLSHIT. As this trial showed, King County got their ballots out on time, the Secretary of State’s office confirmed this.
Why the US Military Mail (I guess) didn’t get your son or others from other states, on time is another issue totally. But the Repthug’s using the emotional heart strings of Military families in this election contest is tasteless and brutally cold.
No surprise I guess though…
Reply to 8
Oh yeah? So what’s your idea of a “respected political commentator,” the SS Brigade at (u)SP?
Reply to 10
Who’s trying to change your mind, and who the fuck cares what you think? I’m perfectly satisfied with the current system that allows soldiers to vote without registering, proving citizenship, showing ID, or even receiving a ballot. As far as I’m concerned, they should be allowed to vote by writing on a cardboard box. As for the rest of us, I’ve been voting in this state for 40 years and don’t see what I should have to re-register or hope some bureaucrat in a distant state sends me my birth certificate when he feels like getting around to it, just because a tiny percentage of the votes were illegal, and I don’t give a flying fuck if you think differently.
Priscilla,
You are a perfect example of what I find offensive – from anyone.
1. You don’t even know my politics yet you feel free to denigrate me for because of your perceived thoughts of what I believe.
2. You’re pretty stupid or very dishonest yourself if you think the right are the only liars.
3. I said he had alternatives — he knew that and used them to his satisfaction. My point was that I believe the states have a responsibility to insure all their citizens have ballots, hopefully taking into account things like the military. Most folks don’t even know that once mail hits the APO that it is out of USPS and into military channels. It just wasn’t done as good as it should have been.
4. You need to wipe that fog of pre-conceived notions from your eyes so you can read more effectively.
Reply to 15
“I now believe that all politicians are self-serving and not very honest or reputable”
Gee, this is news?
Ouch, Priscilla, you need help.
Sick @ 10
“Motor Voter. Need proof of citizenship when registering to vote and valid picture ID when voting. As far as I’m concerned, promoting the current system is promoting making it easier to vote illegally. That’s what I believe and I’ve never heard an argument from the left that even comes close to changing my mind.”
Let’s count the number of illegal votes this would have prevented in the most scrutinized election in State history by your suggestions . . . ummm. . . (I’m working). . . ahhhh. . . TWO!
I had to work so hard because I had to add together the zero cases where someone took advantage of the “no photo id” system and voted in someone else’s name. To that I had to add to two non-citizen votes.
What do we get for that? Thousands of voters who will not vote because they 1) don’t have a photo id, 2) forget to bring them to the polling place, 3) can’t find their ID on Election Day (because they only use the ID once or twice a year for voting).
Now, there have also been calls from the right to get rid of all mail-based voting and go to polling place voting only. This makes “good sense” because we also know there were two stolen absentee ballots that were cast illegally. Additionally, polling-place only voting would have gotten rid of the fifty-some absentee votes cast for dead people. So, getting rid of mail voting is may times more effective than your solution.
Do you think we should disenfranchise tens of thousands of voters who cannot make it to the polling place (including your son) just to prevent a handfull of illegal votes? I hope not.
The trick, Mr. Sick, is to find an appropriate trade-off in our election laws and procedures that minimize illegal voting while, at the same time, does not prevent or discourage people from exercising their rights to vote. Nobody is in favor of illegal votes, but overreacting with solutions that disenfranchise large chuncks of valid voters is not the right solution to the problem.
Re: Sick of both @ 10, Priscilla @ 21:
You know, we could clear up a lot of this “illegal voter” business by giving ex-felons back the right to vote (automatically, not with a bureaucratic maze). There’s nothing inherently illegal in a former felon participating in the political process; it’s not comparable to the dishonesty of voting on behalf of a dead person or double-voting.
Why shouldn’t all the governed participate in the election of their government?
So, before this fairly recent move to anybody voting absentee, we’ve been willfully disenfranchising large chunks of valid voters for the majority of our history (and let’s leave out the Landowners only, white male only argument that I’m sure we are on the same side about) and address only poll vs. absentee only.
David, I agree with you. Thanks for some sanity in a list of a lot of hatefull, name-calling, sarcastic people.
Ooops, is using ‘name-calling’ name-calling?
Wow, I’m the voice of reason.
Hey, Sick —
You said fifteen posts ago that you have to get back to more constructive activities. But like most Repubs, you just can’t let go of this election, can you…
Reply to 22
“I said he had alternatives – he knew that and used them to his satisfaction.”
Oh, so he DID vote then? And your post at #1 was misleading? How nice.
Let’s get something straight, “Sick” (no disrespect to military families intended; you chose to call yourself that, not me). I served a full tour with a combat unit in Vietnam — back when the majority of soldiers in the combat zone were considered old enough to die on the battlefield but weren’t allowed to drink or vote because they were thought too young to be trusted with a ballot or a beer — so I’ve been there and one that.
No one is saying soldiers in war zones shouldn’t be obstructed for voting. They should be first in line to vote. They deserve to vote more than anybody else. In fact, they deserve to have their ballot delivered to them by a personal butler on a gold platter, along with a juicy T-bone steak with the trimmings and a case of cold Bud. I would if it were within my power.
My argument with you is not about soldiers voting. It’s abut uninformed or dissembling (not “disassembling” as Bush said; “disassembling” is what you do to an M-16 before cleaning it, “dissembling” is what Bush does every time he opens his mouth) right-wing partisan spouting the party-issued bullshit about soldiers being screwed out of their voting rights by a vast left-wing conspiracy. That’s bullshit, ma’am (or sir), and I’m calling it like it is.
FACT: It is easier for soldiers to vote in Washington than in any of the other 49 states.
FACT: There was no massive disenfranchisement of military voters in last fall’s election. King County, which probably is representative of the rest of the state, mailed all of its military/overseas ballots on time, and about 83% of those ballots were returned by the voters and counted, which is almost identical to the overall turnout. The Repubs tried to dig up a few individual soldiers who encountered problems with their ballots for the cynical purpose of fueling their lying PR campaign, but these stories are strictly anecdotal and out of 2.9 million ballots you are bound to have isolated problems here and there.
FACT: King County counted over 14,000 military/overseas ballots, and disqualified only 16 for late receipt. Since military and overseas civilian voters can’t be differentiated in the data, it’s entirely possible that all 16 of those ballots were civilians and not a single military ballot was rejected. It’s also possible that all 16 of those votes were for Gregoire. It’s also possible that some or all of those 16 ballots were promptly delivered by the mail system and were late because the voters procrastinated in returning them. What we do know for sure is that no more than 16 military and civilian overseas ballots weren’t counted, out of more than 15,000 ballots mailed out.
FACT: The GOP utterly failed to prove its noisy claims of military disenfranchisement at trial, in fact, they didn’t even try because there was NO EVIDENCE to support those claims.
WE ALL WISH YOUR SON IN IRAQ WELL, AND SAFE RETURN. WE ALL WANT HIM TO VOTE, AND SUPPORT THE CURRENT FEDERAL AND STATE LAWS THAT BEND OVER BACKWARD TO FACILITATE MILITARY VOTING. If he can’t vote because he’s pinned down in a fire fight, none of us can do anything about that. Although I have to say, I have yet to hear a news account of a fire fight in Iraq that lasted more than a few hours, whereas your son had weeks during which he could have gotten a FWIB, filled it out, and dropped it in the mailbag. And by your own account, he voted.
The problem here, ma’am (or sir), is not King County, the voting laws, or the civilian or military mail system. The problem here is that you are shamelessly exploiting your own son in a cynical ploy to lend a respectability to right-wing propaganda that it doesn’t deserve. By your own admission, your soldier son voted. By inference, you are a low-life right-wing bullshitter.
And if you find that offensive, my response is that I find you offensive.
Hey, Sick –
You said fifteen posts ago that you have to get back to more constructive activities. But like most Repubs, you just can’t let go of this election, can you…
Reply to 24
No, I had the PTSD counseling, and I’m OK now. Just don’t tailgate me, sneak up behind me, or make any sudden moves or noises.
Actually, dj, those two absentee ballots weren’t “stolen.” They were mailed to the correct address, but the voters had died, and their spouses used those ballots to vote twice. Both have been prosecuted, pleaded guilty, and were given suspended jail sentences and $470 fines.
And because of those two ballots, the Repubs want to disenfranchise 10’s of thousands of Washingtonians who work in Alaska, on fishing boats, are airline pilots or merchant mariners or long-haul truck drivers, or make their living away from home in a variety of other ways (e.g., forest fire fighters). Not to mention shut-ins, disabled people, elderly people in nursing homes, and others who can’t make it to a polling place. Presumably the Repubs wouldn’t take absentee voting away from military voters, though. Seems to be you would have an Equal Protection issue if you allowed one group to vote absentee but not others.
Reply to 27
“before this fairly recent move to anybody voting absentee”
That’s a crock. We’ve had absentee voting in this state for as long as I can remember.
Sick @ 27,
Indeed, mail voting is an advancement in voting technology that has re-enfranchised millions.
Personally, I like voting at the polling place. I usually hang out at the polling place after casting my ballot, just to soak in the sweet air of democracy in action. But, I am ashamed to admit that I have missed some smaller local elections because I was having a busy day, out of town, etc. The big advantage of mail voting is that I can participate in every election.
As far as I am concerned, democracy works best when more people vote. Mail voting allows more citizens to vote (including your son).
The problem here is opinionated people coming in here to attack others who can’t get the most basic facts straight.
Rossi’s concession speech reference to the political make-up of our state’s supreme court as deterring him from appealing, and Chris Vance’s subsequent rant along the same lines, were both shameless and irresponsible. Our court is not partisan in either its composition or in its jurisprudence. Most members of the court come from moderate backgrounds, none of them with any significant experience in party politics. The only member with a serious political ax to grind is Jim Johnson, who was the BIAW’s fair-haired boy in the last election. I believe that even he, however, will attempt to set aside his political biases whenever he puts his robes on. That is what judges do. A survey of our court’s recent decisions would show a court dedicated to applying the law as written and fairly interpreting both the state and federal constitutions. I would bet that neither Rossi nor Vance has ever read an entire decision from our state’s supreme court. Hell, I’d bet neither man could even name all 9 members of the court. They both, however, freely denigrate the court with their references to the court’s partisanship. Plainly, both men take their cue and talking points from rage radio and the longstanding Republican strategy of attacking the judiciary. An independent judiciary is anethema to the anti-democratic wing of the Republican party; a branch of government that cannot be bought interferes with the right-wing’s plutocratic goals. Rossi’s immature slander of our state’s supreme court shows that we are most fortunate that he is not at the head of this state’s government.
Goldy; this would be more fun if you gave Prissy man a quota; I can’t even keep up w/ his/her posts, let alone the cogent ones cuz Prissy is 7/8ts of the posts.
or us conservs could flood your site with garbage text the way she does
righton @ 39
For the most part, you neocons DO flood the site with garbage!
Priscilla @ 33
I think we are talking about different pairs of ballots. During the trial, four absentee envelopes were introduced from a married couple–one pair had valid signatures and the other had fake signatures. As I recall, the couple asked for and got duplicate ballots because their originals never arrived. Someone had stolen their ballots and filled them out, and returned them with forged signatures.
Stefan is asking his readers(those that haven’t been banned from commenting) to find examples of lawsuits where the plaintiffs complaint was that MORE illegal votes were cast than the difference between the winner and the loser and the election stood, anyway. Presumably, in Stefan’s mind,if there is no previous record of a case like that, then he must be right.
That seems to be Stefan’s mind set. If he accuses you of something and you cannot prove you are NOT guilty, Then you MUST be guilty. If this is a clever ploy to get the gullible to go along with your every utterance, then I recognize it as being very effective. But if that is how he really thinks, then he should seek counseling immediately.
headless lucy @ 42
I hope someone mentions “Borders et al. v. King County et al.” to Stefan.
Priscilla and HA others. So if the felons were reinfranchised, you are inferring that Dino Rossi would have won? Per Paul “They voted for Rossi” Berendt, he would have won by an over 1000 vote margin, subtracting the 25 felons found to have voted for Gregoire, right? Damn, 100% hindsight produces a different governor result!!! Let me get my petition ready. How many signatures do I need? What is Tim Eyman’s phone number again?
Priscilla, you are right about the WA voting avenues for military types. Both of my nephews, flight captain on the Carl Vinson, Navy Medic/Marine Corpsman on the Abraham Lincoln, expressed that being on an ACC (flat top to us old timers) gave them faster access to mail. When you remove the swearing and demeaning comments you express yourself well!! Still don’t think I can hire you due to the inflammatory side that shines through too much lately.
But you all still forget about the other two voters who were not American citizens who voted, living around the UW district. Is that a convenient oversight on your part?
I also find it very hard to believe that people leave their house without their ID? Is it because the WA State drivers license does not provide real identification? How do they identify themselves to rent their movies? How do they identify themselves when cashing a check? How do they identify themselves when picking up a package at the post office? I wonder, hmmm…?
The voters registration card is a thin piece of paper that takes hardly any room in a wallet or clutch purse. That comment is hard to swallow!
Pudster
Puddwhacker: You are just as thick as a brick and there’s no gettin’ around it.
headless lucy said:
Stefan is asking his readers (those that haven’t been banned from commenting)
Yeah, lucy, it kind of puts his whole “if the Judge votes for the Dems, we live in Joseph Stalin times” comment into perspective. He’s just a good lock-step right winger. I highly doubt he was ever liberal (as he claims).
Puddy @ 44
“So if the felons were reinfranchised, you are inferring that Dino Rossi would have won? Per Paul “They voted for Rossi” Berendt, he would have won by an over 1000 vote margin, subtracting the 25 felons found to have voted for Gregoire, right?”
It may very well be the case that if felons in Washington had been re-enfranchised, Rossi would have won. Keep in mind that there are many thousands of people convicted of a felony who have completed their sentence. All of them who were convicted before July 1984 are permanently disenfranchised in WA. For those after that, only those who pay restitution and apply are re-enfranchised.
The fact is, we have no reliable evidence of how felons vote in Washington. In an earlier thread, I did a “back of the envelope” estimate using the ethnic/racial profile of felons, assuming that felons vote like others of their ethnic group/race, and concluded that it was pretty close to 50-50. Richard Pope did something similar and concluded a slight Gregoire bias. Professor Handcock, in his report for the court case (which is on the SoS web site) did a sex-adjusted analysis, and, if I remember correctly, showed a pro-Rossi bias. So, I think the evidence and analyses so far do not shed much light on your question.
BTW: I don’t recall anyone (outside of a few idiots on blog comment threads) claim that all (or even most) felons voted for one candidate. Most people who have examined the issue recognize full well that felons voted for both major candidates.
Sick of Both Sides @1,
The number one election reform by Sec. of State Sam Reed, and every county auditor I talked to, was to move the primary back at least three weeks so that the counties would have more time to send out overseas ballots. The Democrats proposed such legislation, and it was blocked in the Senate by Pam Roach and other Republicans.
That said, the counties did (just barely) get the overseas ballots out by the federal deadline. They also offered a number of alternatives, including Federal Write-in Ballots and “email ballots” that military personnel could print off and send back. Military personnel do not even have to have their ballots post-marked by election day, as military post does not always include postmarks… they merely have to sign the date on the ballot.
Furthermore, in King County the turn-out rate for overseas ballots was a virtually identical 83% to the turnout rate in King County as a whole… only 16 overseas ballots were rejected because they were not received by the certification deadline. There is absolutely no evidence that KC disenfranchised military voters.
All that said, we need to do better in getting ballots to and from military personnel.
BTW: I don’t recall anyone (outside of a few idiots on blog comment threads) claim that all (or even most) felons voted for one candidate. Most people who have examined the issue recognize full well that felons voted for both major candidates.
And you KNOW that the Republican’s know this too. If they KNEW that Felons only voted for Gregoire they would have interviewed as many as they could and gotten sworn statments (whatever a sworn statment from a Felon is really worth) and used that in court like the Dems did. The fact that they did not present even one Felon who voted for Gregoire tells you that they didn’t want to go there. Either out of knowledge that it was not good for their case or a belief that it was too dangerous too their case. Instead they could just get Carlson, Wilbur to pound the idea out that their that Felons vote OVERWHELMINGLY for Democrats (Carlson said that on many occasions). It was a good PR move, that’s for sure.
Goldy, blaming military ballots on the primary is a Dean Loganism or Sam Reedism; both are “dog ate my homework” whiners. How many million do we give this department to sit around all year preparing for an election? You mean other companies, organizations fail to function when projects shift?
righton @ 51
Are you really that much of an idiot, righton? Let’s review:
1. KC got their ballots out on time.
2. The military ballot response was on par with absentee ballots.
3. There were a grand total of 16 (combined) absentee/military ballots rejected for being late.
To summarize: the late primary was not a problem this last election.
The real problem will be if there are recounts following some future primary. There is no reason for the primary to be stacked so close to the election–it is just asking for problems sometime down the road.
You and your pesky facts, dj. How will righton be able to maintain his righteous indignation if you shatter his illusions about disenfranchised military voters?
dj; you wrongly extrapolated; i just said its a red herring to blame the primary for sending ballots out the last day (under court order i might add). If you were trying to get brownies to a relative in Iraq, say by Christmas; would you wait till the last day, or realize, hey its war, maybe i should go send these out early?
dj; you wrongly extrapolated; i just said its a red herring to blame the primary for sending ballots out the last day (under court order i might add). If you were trying to get brownies to a relative in Iraq, say by Christmas; would you wait till the last day, or realize, hey its war, maybe i should go send these out early?
Did they get the ballots out by the Federal deadline? Yes. And overseas absentee voter turnout similar to turnout here? Yep. And did a ton of ballots arrive late? Nope. Seems to me that while Sam Reed thought that having the primary earlier was a good idea, King County still managed to get their job done on anyway.
Puddybuddy @45, personally I pay cash for everything and cant remember the last time anyone asked for my two years expired ID card. Last I checked, we (as US citizens) aren’t required to “show our papers” when secret service agent ask to see them, nor carry ID on our person unless performing an activity that requires a liscence.
dj @ 52: Was your question rhetorical? righton is an idiot.
The counties did not mail the absentee ballots under a court-ordered deadline. The Department of Justice was threatening to sue if ballots weren’t mailed by Oct. 7. They never filed suit and there was no court order.
Contrary to righton’s uninformed braying, Washington’s late primary is a material factor relating to how quickly the counties can mail absentee ballots. Primary results were not certified until Sept. 24. That left two weeks to complete ballot design, print ballots, check for errors, and stuff envelopes. In King County, this is even more complicated because there are more than 2600 precincts and each precinct has a different ballot. Washington state counties made a heroic effort to get the military ballots out as quickly as possible.
Of course, all this information is readily available. righton just chooses to avoid looking for it before spouting nonsense.
Thanks for the reply dj. I wanted to see if someone would be intellectually honest. Thank you for doing that. Headless you are intellectually dishonest and you just prove the dunce you are teaching those Seattle Scholl District people how to be a dunce. Besides headless, how thick is a brick unless you one of those ELF types? I will be intellectually honest. I was one of a few who posted that U of Minn report about how felons voted. I have nothing to hide.
Bill, so if God forbid, something happened to you and there was no ID on your body, how would they know:
Potential drug allergies
Next of Kin
Where you are from
Etc.
Get it? If you say you travel without your driver’s license and you drive, is that a misdemeanor?
SP’s lookin’ pretty lame. Kind of desperate, flop-sweat lame. That’s my opinion. Prove I’m wrong.
Pudster @ 59 “I will be intellectually honest.”
RFLMAO!! this comment from the sack of shit that still refuses to acknowledge that the 911 commission and the Senate Intelligence report found NO link between Osama and Saddam!!!??
You have to be kidding PuddlyBuddly! You are as intellectual honest as double bacon cheese burger with fries.
Until you own up to your own intellectual dishonesty, do not expect anyone to take you serious.
me @ 61 I apologise for the “sack of shit” comment.
It should have read “sad sack of shit”.
Please excuse my error.
The long and the short of this whole fiasco is that felons voted for Rossi. Period. THEY know it. And, the Dem’s proved it! If anyone believes for a split second that this court case was not on Karl Rove’s radar screen, they’re only fooling themselves.
With Bush’s approval ratings starting to look like a turd floating in the proverbial toilet, and congress’ marks are similar to what they were just prior to the Republican’s takeover, they are looking for a lighting rod issue to deflect attention away from their policy decisions that are failing on every single front and retain as much power as they can.
Proving felon voting patterns in court is something that Karl Rove didn’t overlook. Neither did the RNC, Chris Vance, Dino Rossi, and certainly not Rossi’s legal team. The fact remains, they polled felons and found out the truth would hurt their cause, so the idea was shelved. Most likely on orders from the White House. Proving in a court of law that felons vote Democrat is precisely the kind of ammunition they would love to have Bush parrot on the stump.
Instead, the Republicans tried to make a case with allegations fraud, ballot stuffing, etc. and wanted to impose “fuzzy math” to overturn the election. They knew legal charges of fraud, by design, have a very high burden of proof threshold. Judge Bridges said so at the beginning. They went in with their eyes wide open. Now they claim that Judge Bridges set the bar so high that there is no remedy to election fraud in this state. What a bunch of crap.
From the get-go, the Dems wanted to depose all the illegal voters to arrive at an accurate and intelligent determination of who really won the election. Chris Vance said on KVI that the cost deposing 1,678 illegal voters was “infeasible.” But somehow having nearly 3 million people go to the polls cost less?? Do they have any fucking idea how millions of tax-payer dollars it costs to hold a statewide election? No wonder the national deficit is out-of-control.
The truth is depositions would have/did provide a remedy to the court to deduct illegal votes and thus declare a winner.
So it’s no longer conjecture or biased opinion, it is a matter of public record and legal fact: 4 out 5 felons vote Republican, and the 5th votes Libertarian.
So suck it up, you pussies. By the way, there’s a sale on pampers at Wal-Mart.
GBS – If you believe for a split second anyone OUTSIDE of this state gives a rats ass about the contested election, you need to share whatever it is you are smoking…
You honestly don’t think Karl Rove had his eye on this case?
No way. This case only meant something if the R’s won. Other than that it was all smoke and mirrors. On the other hand, this case was very important for the D’s. If they hold out any hope to recoup their losses in 06, they need to start here and now.
Great summation GBS “4 out 5 felons vote Republican, and the 5th votes Libertarian.”
Bumper stickers will be issued!
GBS – the other thing the D’s need to do is curb Dean. He is not helping their case at all.
Karl Rove has his evil fingers in every glass of Kool Aid. Bet on it.
You’d love it if Dean quit speaking truth to power.
Never take the advice of the enemy, or accept trojan horses.
The Dem’s don’t need to curb Dean. He’s being himself. Let it go. I thinks the largest deficit in the history of the planet and over 14,000 GI’s killed or wounded in a war that Bush lied us into is going to be more of the demise of the R’s, than anything Howard says.
Donnie – Do you really believe that Dean is going to help the D’s win back congressional seats in 06? Calling R’s “White Christians” will not set well with many “White Christian” Democrats in the South. If the D’s want those votes, they better start talking about something other than abortion and gay marriage.
When I was younger, I always voted Democratic. My brother is a grade school teacher in Iowa, and he is a Democrat. My father is a farmer in Iowa, and he is a Democrat. I don’t hate Democrats. I want to vote Democratic again, but in order for me to do that, the D’s need to start getting on the side of the working man, and the farmer. 25000 jobs from GM going to Canada! Where is Dean on that? Japanese cars, subsidized by the Japanese govt sold in American for less than they cost to produce! Where is Dean on that? Lets get the Democratic Party back on track, or I will continue to vote Independent.
Comment on 41
I wouldn’t have to reply to so much bullshit if you posted less of it.
43, I hadn’t heard about that until just now.
Fire-One are your feeling OK? The Dem’s needing to get on the side of the working man?
Why do you Max Cleland was so outraged when the R’s ran TV ads with comparing him with Osama Bin Ladin and Saddam by portarying as him soft on national security because he voted against the Homeland Security bill?
GBS – Yeah they need to get PUBLICLY on the side of the working man…. The R’s (just in case anyone is in doubt) is in the pocket of Big Business. And the Republicans will ADMIT it… Their backers are not illiterate, church going, bible thumpers, etc. Their backers are wealthy corporate types wearing Armani… I am a blue collar worker who just keeps getting bigger and bigger bills from the IRS. And Dean calling people names is not going to work. I don’t know the man, but he appears to be well dressed and intelligent. If this is all he can think of to talk about on national tv, the D’s better get someone else….
fire_one @ 72 “start getting on the side of the working man, and the farmer.”
Well, I am not a farmer, but I am working person, and that is exactly why I vote (mostly) Democratic. I wish we had some vialble 3rd parties, but we don’t, so I don’t vote that way. Votiong independent of repugnant is suicide for the working person. And Dean is more like the Democrats I used to love than the DC inbreds like Biden and Lieberman, etc.
No more playing nice, we have done that and lost. And will continue to lose.
Time to call a brown shirt a brown shirt and wake up the working man and farmer… once they no the truth, ain’t no way they are gonna vote for their oppressors.
Max Cleland was attacked for voting against the Homeland Security bill because the R’s tacked on legislative riders that would have stripped away rights for federal workers.
Dem’s are so behind the working person that there is no doubt who they support. If you’re a working stiff, like me, then voting independent is voting against your own best interest. It’s sort of like kissing your sister, something that’s better left to inbred, right-wing, Christian, fascist, Ameri-Ka loving white people.
Not that I blame you for your frustrations with the current climate of politicians, but geez, Ralph Nader. C’mon they cannot win on a national level and a vote for them is liking voting for Bush.
Puddybud @ 46
Thank you for the kind acknowledgment, and just to show you I’m a decent country gal at heart, since you’re being nice to me I’ll be nice to you, and won’t even swear or call you names in this post!
I’ve never suggested that ineligible people should be allowed to vote, or that illegal votes should be counted. As for the illegal votes in the governor’s election, Judge Bridges deducted the votes he could, and properly refrained from guessing where there was no evidence to show the ineligible voters cast a vote in the governor’s race or who they voted for. The R’s not only asked the judge to guess, but to guess according to an intentionally biased and scientifically unsound interpretation of cherry-picked data. Not surprising that he declined.
The R’s have a standard set of election “reforms,” and talking points to support them, that they’re pushing all over the country. These were hatched by conservative think tanks and political strategists, and are designed to reduce the turnout of Democratic voters. Why are you so put out that we’re having none of it? I’ll give you the standard Democratic Party response: Things like re-registration, proof of citizenship, and photo ID solve problems that don’t even exist. There is no evidence that photo ID would have prevented a single illegal vote from being cast in the governor’s election. It certainly wouldn’t have stopped any of the felons from voting. On the other hand these additional obstacles between voters and the ballot box do discourage some people from voting, especially the poor, elderly, disabled, and minorities.
I guess it boils down to whether your concept of “democracy” is based on inclusion or exclusion. Democrats would rather let 1 illegal vote get through than keep 10 eligible voters from voting; right wingers, it seems, would rather keep 10 eligible citizens from voting rather than let 1 illegal vote get through. You can apply the same analogy to criminal juries. Which is worse, letting 10 bad guys go free rather than risk wrongly imprisoning 1 innocent, or imprisoning 10 innocents to make sure not even 1 criminal goes scot free. Your answer to that question says a lot about your political philosophy, and about you as a person.
To say that we’re more concerned about making sure those eligible to vote are able to do so, than we are about keeping the occasional illegal vote from getting through the system, is not an endorsement of illegal voting. Rather, it is an expression of where our priorities lie.
P.S., Puddy Buddy, I don’t know who the felons voted for, or who would benefit from re-enfranchising them. Not a clue.
Rossi needs not appoligise to ANYONE Goldy. The person that owes an appoligy is Gregoire for assuming the office when the majority still feel Rossi won and wanted a revote. It is she that owes the appoligy!
Priscilla: You make very astute and convincing points through out your post. Bravo! I did note one minor error. If I may I’d like to point it out to you.
“right wingers, it seems, would rather keep 10 eligible citizens from voting rather than let 1 illegal vote get through.”
I believe you meant to say “10 eligible ‘Democrats’ from voting.” ‘Cuz if you’re voting in a predominately Republican precinct the assumption is you’re going to vote “right” anyways.
The Reps are going to start drumming up fear about domestic terrorists. They’re going to pull something big around 2006 before the elections. We need any Dem with stones(At the moment I can only think of Gov Dean and Sen. Conyers and Sen Kennedy)to start preparing for this eventuality. The president has even said: “It’s not a question of if, but a question of when.”
I think the “when” is just around voting time in 2006, so the Reps can play the “We’ll protect you from the bad guys” card again—just like they did with the invasion of Iraq. Don’t put anything over on these neo-cons. They’re poison.
Wrong Again @ 52
Get real! The primary was held on Sept. 20 and county auditors had until Oct. 3 to certify the results to the SoS. From then until the Oct. 8 deadline for mailing general election ballots, King County had only 5 days to print and mail nearly 700,000 absentee ballots, including approximately 18,000 to military and overseas voters.
The voters registration card is a thin piece of paper that takes hardly any room in a wallet or clutch purse. That comment is hard to swallow!
Since my wallet is already bursting with QFC and Safeway cards and a dozen different espresso cards, the chance of me keeping a card that I’m going to use every two years in it is practically nil.
Lucy,
Conyers is a member of the House, not the Senate.
Reply to 64
“If you believe for a split second anyone OUTSIDE of this state gives a rats ass about the contested election, you need to share whatever it is you are smoking…”
Then why did the RNC send Mark Braden, the GOP’s top elections lawyer in the country, to Wenatchee to advise and lead the GOP legal team?
GBS – I did not vote for Nader. I am not even sure when he ran.. In the last election I voted for the only guy who impressed me. He gave a speech in July 03, and on almost every point, I agreed with him. I have never agreed with any politician so exactly, ever in my life. That was John Edwards. But noooooooooo, the D’s had to run that loser Kerry. God, talk about no choice at all… So, if Edwards ever runs again, I will not only vote for him, but I will go out and work for him. But, Dean, man, where did they dig up this guy. I do not believe in “hate-talk”. I do not believe the R’s are our enemies. I believe at the end of the day, we are all Americans, and we better get some people elected who are more concerned about what is right for this Country, as opposed to what is right for this or that political party.
Domestic terrorism for 2006 election cycle: Good Point.
Quick trivia question: When was the date was the last time the Terror Threat level was at level orange?
Give up?
November 10th, 2004. A “modified” condition orange for key financial centers. Nahhhhh, the R’s wouldn’t use something like that national security to scare voters into voting for them now would they. That would be disengious, and bilk already cash straped state and local law enforecement agecnices probably billions and billions of dollars. And for what? Absoulte power. Nope, that would never happen. Not in America. Right?!?!
Comment n 76
“I am a blue collar worker who just keeps getting bigger and bigger bills from the IRS”
Well … Bush’s $300 billion war in Iraq isn’t helping, is it? Or the $400 billion of tax breaks he gave to the richest 1%?
Do you think it will get better if you vote for politicians who want to spend trillions to privatize Social Security, and give hundreds of billions more in tax breaks and subsidies to corporations and the rich?
All right Fire-One, see we found common ground. I caucused for John Edwards last year in the primaries.
Nader is just an easy target for independent voting, but it’s all the same at the end of the day.
Gotta got to night school. My first time at this site. Thanks to Kirby Wilbur’s show I found out about this site. IT’S THE BEST.
Kudos for a job well done.
82, actually I think they’re willing to throw out some of the babies with the bath water, so long as they end up with more votes in the end.
Priscilla – no. So who should I vote for. What are the Democrats going to run on in 08. Here I am, an independent thinker—- convince me.
The judge has ruled. It’s over. Let the republicans wallow in the blog mire. Let’s move on.
Comment on 88
“I believe at the end of the day, we are all Americans”
It used to be that way before the neocons showed up (except for small bands of Birchers and other r/w extremists who were largely ignored) — and still is, when Democrats and moderate Republicans get together for a debate.
But something changed in our political discourse, that we liberals can’t ignore, when right-wing Republicans starting calling us “the enemy” and “terrorists” and “traitors” and starting using words like “civil war” and saying things like liberals should be “executed” or put in “concentration camps.”
No, we’re not all Americans. Democrats and liberals are still Americans, but somewhere along the way the Far Right turned into unpatriotic America-hating Fascist assholes.
Puddybud @69 Yes, if I were to drive without a license that would be a misdemeanor. You are making a basic assumption that any voter would also be a driver (or may be doing some other activity that requires a license). Personallly, I do not drive and so, no, I am not required to carry one.
if God forbid, something happened to you and there was no ID on your body, how would they know:
Potential drug allergies
Next of Kin
Where you are from
Etc.
Why would they need that information? More importantly, I may carry information that would answer any of those without having a valid ID.
Chuck @ 81
“Rossi needs not appoligise to ANYONE Goldy. The person that owes an appoligy is Gregoire for assuming the office when the majority still feel Rossi won and wanted a revote. It is she that owes the appoligy!”
Gregoire assumed office because she was duly elected! As Goldy pointed out in an earlier post, Chuck, we have these things called “laws” in our State. They specify precisely the conditions by which a governor is elected.
From what I can tell, there is no legal way Gregoire could have called for a revote.
Do the “majority feel Rossi won?” I don’t think so, Chuck. The people who don’t hang out on uSP or pollute their minds with talk radio think this election: (1) was exceedingly close, (2) was challenged in court, (3) underwent intense scrutiny at trial, (4) was upheld.
If Rossi were a statesman instead of a weasel, he would have made these points exceedingly clear in his “concession” speech. Instead, he shamed himself and all State Republicans by (1) misleading the public about what was discovered during the trial, and (2) insinuating the Supreme Court’s politics was the only reason he could not win. The only reasonable interpretation from his “concession” speech is that Rossi is a duplicitous asshole.
Pris @ 94 Love that post. Good points. But!
Even the republican voting masses are still americans. But they have unfortunately been turned in to Zombies, by the kool-aid spewing from the corparate MSM, HateTalk -Right wing radio, FAUX news.
They are now puppets to extremist facists bent on destroying democracy and what America once was.
We need some shock therapy to wake them up. I would love to debate with a real republican, but they do not seem to exist anymore.
It is sad. And dangerous.
92, if you’re asking me who the D’s and R’s will run for president in ’08, I don’t know. CW says the Dem nomination is Hillary’s for the asking, but I’m not so sure. I’ve followed for 12 presidential elections and the one constant through that half century is that presidential elections are unpredictable. Too much can change in 3 1/2 years, and the public is fickle. Many, many fast starters and media darlings have faded. Names like Muskie and Romney may not mean much to you, but they were anointed by the media as shoo-ins, yet neither won his party’s nomination. I remember when a much younger Donald Rumsfeld was widely considered a rising star and future presidential candidate, and I remember a young NYC mayor named John Lindsey whom everyone thought had a straight path to the White House. History tells us the 2008 Dem and GOP nominees will not come from the Senate, certainly not from the House of Representatives or the current Cabinet, but most likely from state houses. In the 19th century the surest path to the WH was a successful military career (Jackson, Grant, and others) but in modern times only 1 general has received a direction promotion from uniform to the presidency (Eisenhower). For the last century, the prime talent pool has been the nation’s governors, and that’s where a bookie placing his bets and calling the odds would look for our next president. This augurs well for Jeb Bush, and poorly for Bill Frist, Rick Santorum, Condi Rice, Colin Powell, Wesley Clark, and Hillary Clinton. Jeb says he’s not interested, and one must question whether the voters would go along with three presidents from the same family in quick succession. Starts to look too much like a monarchy or at least an aristocracy.
On the Democratic side, you may have Kerry and Edwards running again, but they’re both out of office and way the hell behind Hillary in all polls of Democratic voters. Hillary appears to be lining herself up for a run and you certainly can’t count her out, as for who could take it away from her, it has to be one of the big-state Democratic governors. On the Republican side, Frist and Santorum both want it, I don’t think they could take it away from Jeb, but if he doesn’t want it then once again look at their coterie of governors. There’s a reason for this — governors have executive experience, have run a government, and knowing how to push legislation or cut deals on the House floor just is not very high on the priority list in terms of the skills and experience that a President needs and the voters want.
2008 is too soon, but on the Democratic side, imagine if you will, a dynamic and successful western state governor who somehow figures out how to connect with midwestern and east coast voters, and has a campaign team that figures out how to put together enough delegate and electoral votes without the south … but this is merely the coffee house chatter of unemployed ex-Gregoire campaign workers.
Priscilla – Thanks for the thoughtfull post. That is exactly what I mean. When I ask you what the Democrats are going to run on in 08, you tell me WHO they are going to run. What the Democrats need to do is identify the issues they have in common with most middle of the road Dems and Reps: Jobs, Taxes, Schools, Social Security, and an end to the occupation of Iraq. And they need to do it before the Republicans frame the arguments, and identify the “cause celebre” of the election. The Dems need to drop the “anyone but Bush” theme. This is a Presidential election, not a high school prom queen contest. That theme will only lead to one thing: 8 years of Jeb Bush as President.
Guess I am too late in the comment chain to make much of an impact.
My main concern has always been the accounting discrepancies.
Why didn’t the GOP simply count the empty absentee ballot envelopes for starters? Same thing for counting the number of signatures in the precinct poll books.
That part would have probably cost $5,000 or so. The GOP was paying its volunteer poll watchers about $10 per hour. It would have taken less than 500 hours work to count 900,000 ballots and signatures.
If the numbers were still way off, then a more intensive job of actual copying, database entry, sorting, and listing names could have been done for $100,000 or so.
If the numbers weren’t way off, then they could have simply dismissed the lawsuit at an early stage.
I would still be interested in someone actually counting the envelopes. Goldy said that Clark County did that, and reduced their number of discrepancies to practically nothing.
Prissy@98–
Are you actually implying that the current 48th most popular governor, who will attempt to govern the next 3-1/2 years with her every move criticized, Initiatives overturning her Legislation and attempts to classify every piece of Legislation as an “Emergency” will somehow be the 2008 Democratic Party nominee for President????
HAR-HAR-HAR-HAR-HAR-HAR-HAR-HAR-HAR ad infinitum!!!
You actually do have a sense of humor Don!!
For the Republicans….
Santorum and Rice.
Santorum and Rice will win in 2008 and 2012….
Then Rice will become the first African-America and first woman President of the United States in 2016 and 2020.
Why don’t you Dems put up Sheila Jackson Lee and Jesse Jackson??
The farce about the contest is that the republicans never really believed they have a chance but were perfectly willing to cost taxpayers millions of dollars for a publicity stunt according to professor Strait at SU.
Richard Pope @ 100
I agree with you completely!
After the 2000 election NORC (at the University of Chicago) did a study of the effect of a Florida recount. Perhaps a political scientist at a WWU, UW, or WSU can get a grant to do the same here.
I know . . . Professors Gill and Adolph should do that study together so that both sides will be forced to accept the findings.
On the Republican side, Frist and Santorum both want it, I don’t think they could take it away from Jeb, but if he doesn’t want it then once again look at their coterie of governors. There’s a reason for this – governors have executive experience, have run a government, and knowing how to push legislation or cut deals on the House floor just is not very high on the priority list in terms of the skills and experience that a President needs and the voters want.
The average Senator also has something the typical governor does not: a long list of public votes that can be twisted to mean nearly anything and used against the candidate. In recent elections this has hurt Bob Dole, Al Gore, and John Kerry in their campaigns against executives.
Another TJ–
You make a most excellent point.
It seems every time an elected official makes a vote, he pisses off one of his supporters OR outrages his opposition to the point of mobilizing them to take action.
I thought the same thought about Hillary Clinton. She is pretty safe so far because she hasn’t done anything of importance. If she can just keep her mouth shut and avoid tough issues for a couple more years….who knows??
Cheesy Chuckie @ 81
Chuck, are you on drugs?
Reply to 99
The Democrats will run on the same issues we’ve always run on — jobs, education, health care, retirement security, affordable housing, etc. — the things that matter to ordinary people.
Donnageddon, what part of this statement do you disagree with on Lee Hamilton: “commission vice-chairman Lee Hamilton baffled. “I must say I have trouble understanding the flack over this,” Hamilton told reporters. “The Vice President is saying, I think, that there were connections between al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein’s government. We don’t disagree with that (my emphasis supplied). So it seems to me the sharp differences that the press has drawn, the media has drawn, are not that apparent to me.” Lee, it’s because HA and the MSM hate Bush. Only three HA people have said they detest the beheading of innocent people by Al-Qaeda (or AL Qaqaa).
Now, with the release of the commission’s final report, it is clear what Hamilton and Cheney were talking about. The final report details a much more extensive set of contacts between Iraq and Al Qaeda than the earlier staff statement. It also modifies the original “no collaborative relationship” description, now saying there was “no collaborative operational relationship” (emphasis added) between Iraq and Al Qaeda. And it suggests a significant amount of contact and communication between the regime of Saddam Hussein and the terrorist organization headed by Osama bin Laden.
Yet donnageddon you haven’t read the report (except the cliff notes part) to comprehend what Lee Hamilton said was there because it would blow apart that small pea you call a brain and the rattling noise you hear as you walk down the street would stop.
Pudster
Priscilla@108
No drugs here, Grey Davis of California enjoyed better popularity during his recall campaign than Chrissy now has, and it isnt going to get any better.
Reply to 92
Let’s take jobs, for example. Democratic presidents ALWAYS do a better job of managing the economy to provide jobs to average citizens. This is evident — no, obvious — from the job-creation records of modern presidents:
Job Creation Record of Modern Presidents
(jobs created as percentage of workforce)
Best – Roosevelt, Democrat, 5.3%
2nd best – Johnson, Democrat, 3.8%
3rd place – Carter, Democrat, 3.1%
4th – Truman, Democrat, 2.5%
5th – Clinton, Democrat, 2.4%
6th – Kennedy, Democrat, 2.3%
7th – Nixon, Republican, 2.2%
8th – Reagan, Republican, 2.1%
9th – Coolidge, Republican, 1.1%
10th – Ford, Republican, 1.1%
11th – Eisenhower, Republican, 0.9%
12th – Bush Sr., Republican, 0.6%
13th – Bush Jr., Republican, (0.7%)
Worst – Hoover, Republican, (9.0%)
At the two extremes, Hoover, of course, presided over the beginning of the Great Depression and Roosevelt presided over the recovery from the G.D., a unique event in American history. But note that over a 3/4-century period, NOT 1 GOP PRESIDENT OUTPERFORMED ANY DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT in job creation. This is not a coincidence; providing jobs for ordinary citizens simply isn’t a Republican priority. For the GOP, other things (including boosting corporate profits) come way ahead of jobs for Average Joes in their list of what’s important.
These figures come from a book published in Dec. 2003. Gee-Dub’s numbers are a little better now, because his “jobless recovery” from the March 2001 recession* finally began creating more jobs than it was losing in 2004, although job creation still remains anemic. Possibly Gee-Dub has caught up with his dad by now, in which case, he can sight his sights on the next big milestone: Eisenhower’s jobs record, not that Ike’s record is one to aspire to (old timers may recall that Kennedy successfully ran in 1960 under the slogan, “Let’s get America moving again”).
Cheesy Chuckie @ 111
Oh — I understand now. You’re stupid.
PRISCILLA
I REALLY WANTED TO MEET YOU BUT THE LINE WAS TO LONG.
Addendum to 112
* Wingers are fond of saying the 2001 recession began on Clinton’s watch. It didn’t. It began in March 2001, two months after Gee-Dub took office.
But what the hell, they lie about everything else, why wouldn’t they lie about this too? They blame everything else on Clinton, so why wouldn’t they blame the Bush Recession on Clinton, too?
Reply to 114
Not my fault you waited until the last minute after Ticketmaster was already sold out.
PRISSY@112
How convenient of you not to finish your thought….
“These figures come from a book published in 2003”
WHAT BOOK?????????????????????????????????????????????????
It matters shitferbrains!!
You are an expert at “spinning” numbers.
Are you sure you were a lawyer???
Oh yeah…you were a lawyer…because the lies roll off your tongue in an unmistakable way and the stench of your words are lawyerly!
Where can I get a ticket for the President’s Dinner? I want to see Mary Carey table dance for George and Laura! :D :D :D
THIS BOOK, turd brain! Geez what are you a fucking librarian? Do you want the Dewey decimal number too? After you buy the book look on page 87. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi.....83-5965755
Another reason you should vote for the Democrats is Homeland Security. You know — terrorists? Remember them? To stop terrorist? The Republicans, you see, are against stopping terrorists from attacking America again. Just look at their voting record:
Nov. 14, 2001: Senate Democrats propose $15 billion for homeland security; the White House warns against “permanent spending on other projects that have nothing to do with stimulus and that will only expand the size of government.”
Dec. 4, 2001: Senate Appropriations Committee votes 29-0 in favor of $13.1 billion for homeland security; the next day, Bush threatens to veto it.
Dec. 6, 2001: Senate Republicans reduce homeland security funding by $4.6 billion.
Dec. 19, 2001: Under pressure from White House, House-Senate conferees eliminate another $200 million of funding for airport security, port security, nuclear facility security, and postal security.
June 7, 2002: Senate votes 71-22 for $8.3 billion of homeland security funding; the next day, Bush’s advisors recommend a veto.
July 19, 2002: Under White House pressure, homeland security funding is further reduced by cutting money for food security, cyber security, nuclear security, airport security, port security, drinking water security, coordination of police and fire radios, and lab testing to detect chem-bio weapons.
Aug. 13, 2002: Bush decides not to spend $2.5 billion appropriated for homeland security on the grounds of “fiscal responsibility.”
Jan. 16, 2003: White House reacts to Democratic efforts to increase homeland security funding by stating, “The Administration strongly opposes amendments to add new extraneous spending.” Later that day, Senate Republicans vote against funds for smallpox vaccine.
Jan. 23, 2003: Senate Republicans cut security funding for the FBI, FEMA, INS, TSA, Coast Guard, and National Nuclear Security Administration.
Feb. 3, 2003: Bush submits a 2004 budget cutting homeland security funding by nearly 2 percent.
Feb. 14, 2003: Senate Democrats request money for smallpox vaccine, police and fire radios, and public transportation security; no Republicans support it.
March 21-25, 2003: Republicans defeat 7 amendments to bolster homeland security.
April 2, 2003: Senate Republicans reject Democratic amendment to provide $1 billion for port security.
April 3, 2003: Republicans reject protection of commercial airliners from shoulder-fired missiles and four other pro-homeland security amendments.
June 2003: House Republicans reject Democratic proposal to raise $1 billion for homeland security by reducing tax cuts for 200,000 millionaires by an average of $5,000 each (from $88,000 to $83,000).
This is also from a book published in Dec. 2003. Yes, Mr. Librarian, the same book. Look on page 41.
Mr. Librarian @ 101
Why not? If a monkey can be president, why not Gregoire? And she’d do a muuuuch better job than Chimpface.
203
Don’t laugh. At the rate the GOP is discrediting itself, even they could get elected.
107
Be careful now. She just might be smart enough to keep her mouth shut, and we can be pretty sure the Republicans aren’t going to let her do anything of importance.
Prissy@119–
YOUR SOURCE OF THIS INFORMATION IS A BOOK BY JAMES CARVILLE????
BAHAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAA!
You really do a have a sense of humor!!
BAAHAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAAA!
James Carville–Mr. Reliable Stats Man!!
BAAHAAAAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAA!
102
“For the Republicans….
Santorum and Rice.”
Oh my god, you guys, this is genius. Spreading Santorum everywhere!
Santorum and Rice, Santorum and Rice, Santorum and Rice!
Has a much better ring to it than kibbles and bits, even if it IS more disgusting.
125 Santorum and Rice
YUK!
See what I mean?
Oh I guess it must not be true because Carville wrote the book, is that right Mr. Smarty Pants?
I DARE YOU to prove that Carville’s numbers are wrong. Why don’t you go to the original source materials at the Department of Labor and get back to us in six months or so when you’ve finished compiling it.
Richard Pope @101,
The GOP didn’t count the absentee envelopes for the same reason they didn’t depose felons… they were afraid it would disprove their case. Clark County also installed DIMS in 2004, had similar problems, and a similar discrepancy per 1000 votes (about 190 for 120,000 ballots.) They counted the envelopes by hand after certification, and got the discrepancy down to 59.
SOBS @ 1:Don’t talk about disenfranchised military. My son got his WA absentee ballot in Iraq the day of the election. Many others he knew were in the same boat – and not just from WA state! He had other options, but the fact remains that the ‘official’ ballot didn’t get to him in time!
Your son had ample opportunity to vote. Whether it came from the official state ballot or not. All of the counties in Washington State that have a significant military presence went out of their way for the military folks…including allowing them to do ballots by email and by fax. Further, all had access to Federal Military Ballots and if they were duly registered, could vote for state offices on those ballots.
In addition, each individual in the military had at least one (if not multiple) meetings on this issue from an officer designated to help each person vote.
I researched this at length. In no way were military voters from Washington State disenfranchised. If they didn’t vote..they did it to themselves.
sick@22:
3. I said he had alternatives – he knew that and used them to his satisfaction. My point was that I believe the states have a responsibility to insure all their citizens have ballots, hopefully taking into account things like the military. Most folks don’t even know that once mail hits the APO that it is out of USPS and into military channels. It just wasn’t done as good as it should have been.
Then your original complaint of “disenfranchisement” was a non sequitur?
Due to Washington State’s very late primary..counties couldn’t get ballots out until October. Counties went out of their way to accomodate overseas and military voters as best they could.
The counties did ensure that these voters all have access to a ballot. So did the feds. Your complaint seems shallow, at best.
RE: 86–Of course you are correct. My bad.
Hey Lucy, you need to study more for your students and stay off the blogs. Maybe then you’d know who is a senator and who is a congressperson. If your command of government knowledge was meant to deliver a to us civics lesson, you failed again!
Ha ha ha ha ha.
Pudster
That should have read “deliver to us a civics lesson”…
Pudster
carla; military voting by email; go away, you are wrong.
not by email per se, but over the internet, yes. In fact, ALL overseas US persons were supposed to have access to the process, but suddenly anyone NOT in the military was barred from using it. Hmmmm….isn’t that odd?
righton @ 136: go away, you are wrong.
Coming from you, this is hilarious. See #58.
righton @ 136:
No, I’m not wrong. I personally spoke to Kitsap, King and Pierce County elections offices about this. Military voters were allowed to send their ballots via email over the internet to the various counties.
carla–literally as an attachment to an email? Or as part of a web form? If the former, I didn’t know that.
Dino owes NOBODY any apology. He and his party shouldn’t pay shit for ANY of the Dems’ legal costs. It was a legitimate election validity debate in the courts; no matter what the final decision was. If nothing else, it did prove MANY errors and screw-ups with the system, not suprisingly almost ALL in good ole’ King County; which appears to think that they are in fact the center of the universe, which they are not. People in other counties don’t give a shit about that damned 520 bridge or the Alaskan Way viaduct. That is naive and selfish, not to mention extremely arrogant. Maybe fat-ass slob Paul Berendt can get up on national TV again and start crying about it like the wimp that he is. If nothing else; it’s over-plain and simple, no matter what anyone’s personal views and opinions on this matter are. I respect Rossi for stating in a classy way ‘…..with the political make-up of the Washington State Supreme Court…….’ Huh, they’re not just a little biased are they? Hhhmmmmm. Good for him. I applaud his statement and still believe he is the true winner in all this; despite what Judge Bridges decided. Remember that in fact, half of the voters in this state are disgusted and disgruntled over this whole shitty mess. I hope I-912 passes, which will tell lil Crissy and Co. that we don’t want the new gas tax, as we have voted on and told good ole’ whiney Gary Locke multiple times before. At the end of the next three and a half years when we are all taxed to death for the good of fucking King County; then and only then can you all live with it. It’s coming, courtesy of lil Crissy and Co. Shame on this state, I know I have no respect for the system any longer. Good day and thanks.
carla and scott; there is no email voting in Washington, even for the military. All by hand, all by mail.
Next you’re going to say they had telephone voting and free satelite phones…
I signed the I-912 Initiative today…along with a whole restaurant full of people (R’s and D’s alike).
You will see this Initiative 912 get super Bi-Partisan support.
WHY????
Because it isn’t about Right vs. Left.
It isn’t about Democrat vs. Republican
It isn’t about Liberal vs. Conservative.
It’s about Right vs. Wrong
It’s about the rest of the State against FAR-LEFTIST PINHEADED Seattle.
It’s about not getting conned into a money-sucking boondoggle that will essentially result in a beautified Seattle waterfront at the expense of a positive business climate and the rest of the State.
You would have had to cut people’s hands off to even slow people down who signed this petition. It was great to see. A bunch of us are taking the petition specifically to Democrats…old-fashioned Truman Dems, who are wise enough to see thru this con-job.
As the infamous Scotsman, the legendary Ben Dover once said:
“Could you find it in yer ‘eart to please use a wee bit ‘o that K-Y Jelly stuff befer ya ram ‘er ‘ome!!!”
TJ @ 140:
As part of a web form that was emailed to them via the county in question. It wasn’t sent as an attachment over email. Each person was emailed the information and instructions and the it was handled via web form. (Sorry if that was confusing..my bad)
Righton @ 142:
You are incorrect. Ballots were done via email as I explained to TJ and by fax as well.
Mark1 – it isn’t true that all the mistakes were in King County. Republicans found their felon votes in KC because they chose not to look anywhere else; Democrats found felon founds — hundreds of them, as many as Repubs found — in counties all over the state. Other counties added proportionately more votes and had proportionately greater errors than KC. Wingnuts like you love to vilify the election and King County, but the fact is there was no fraud by the parties, candidates, or election officials; the errors were not limited to King County; and the errors did not affect the result.
Mr. Irrelevant – it wouldn’t surprise me if the voters repeal the gas tax. Their distrust of public officials is somewhat justified because of past stupidities and current efforts by Mayor Nickels and the business and property owner interests he panders to, to build a gold-plater. None of this changes the fact that AWV and 520 have to be either replaced or eventually shut down as unsafe, which will eliminate 40% of Seattle’s commuter traffic capacity. If you think this won’t impact the rest of the state you’re nuts. But let’s say it didn’t. OK, fair enough. Seattle can pay for its own bridges. But in that event, two things should happen:
1. Seattle taxpayers should immediately stop subsidizing schools and roads in the rest of the state. If you don’t want to pay road taxes when it’s Seattle’s turn for infrastructure repair, fuck you, we’ll keep our money for our own needs, and you can pay for your own schools and roads.
2. To minimize local-option vehicle registration fees, gas taxes, property taxes, or other regional taxes, AWV and 520 should be paid for primarily with tolls. Since people living within the local taxing area are contributing taxes to help pay for these structures, their tolls should be lower than the tolls charged nonresidents. Say $2.50 for residents and $6.00 for nonresidents.
CArla; thanks for pointing out more vote fraud. If you are correct (that ballots sent via email), then even more fraud likely occurred (how many emails can you send in 1 hour?, i think i could send 100,000 or so?
Luckily for you, there is no proof of email ballots. Guess that BC Bud still getting through the border
How do you do it Mr Unintelligent? Convince people to sign a petition against a gas surtax. It’s freakin’ amazin’! Do you think I’d have a lot of trouble getting signatures against
giving tax breaks to rich people?
Prissy@145–
I would be perfectly happy to have Seattkle stop with the “subsidies”. Just repeal the Growth Management Act and allow the rural counties the opportunity to build a tax base unobstructed by Seattle’s wishes.
GMA has crippled rural counties and made them dependent….the LEFTIST PINHEADS love folks to be dependent on them. The LEFTIST PINHEADS also love to drive thru our rural communities in their BMW convertibles with their $250 suglasses and Tommy Hilfiger outfits on…enjoy the expansive nothingness they have created (they avoid the sideroads where the real proverty is).
CrazyLoony–
Go ahead and do it!!
Oh that would mean work and investing money to do it!!
You are a bottom-feeder sucking tax dollars for absolutely zero benefit to society. How do YOU do it Loony??
Once again Pricilla is off in her own little selfish world……Maybe she should be a used car salesman, or one of those vile telemarketers! See you when I-912 passes. The hell with King County; it turns out the rest of us who don’t live there don’t much give a shit. It turns out King is not the center for which the rest of the counties in this State revolve around……..despite popular belief. Thanks.
Priscilla@145
I have a better idea, take the same money that we are now spending and
1/ Eliminate the prevailing wage laws
2/ Build infastructure, not HOV lanes not busses, light rail or trains, but roads and bridges.
3/ If seattle wants a transit system second to none then they can pay for the entire system locally.
Chuck–And
4) Repeal the GMA
Fire the election workers; they make no difference; KC still gives the vote to the Dems, save our money
righton @ 146:
Are you being stupid on purpose or is this just the real you?
The individuals were EMAILED INSTRUCTIONS on how to do their vote over the internet via a secure page. They cast their vote on the page just once.
But even if it was over email..they could still only vote once. It would be the same as paper ballot voting. Each individual, even if they sent in multiple ballots..has a ballot crosschecked and extra ballots eliminated.
carla@154
Why does the Pierce County Elections department dispute your email vote theory? They claim there was no such thing.