Well, the bad news for Republicans is, that in contacting names on their list of 1,100 allegedly illegal voters, the Associated Press found that two out of three claim to have voted for Rossi. The good news is, it turns out none of these three actually voted illegally. Or maybe that’s the bad news. I’m confused.
The Associated Press contacted three of those on the alleged felon list. Two said their voting rights had been restored and one said he was pulled over for drunken driving in 2003, but the charge was reduced. Two of those three said they voted for Rossi.
The Seattle Times reports finding three more people wrongly included on the list, including a 57-year-old disabled man, who had his voting rights restored in 1994.
“You make one mistake in your life,” the man said. “It’s something that happened 21 years ago, and then to have it come up again; it’s devastating. I’m in tears.”
Oh yeah… he voted for Rossi too.
In fact, news organizations around the state started finding so many inaccuracies in the list that according to the Seattle P-I, the Democrats hastily called a press conference to accuse the Rossi camp of releasing a list that “smears the names of innocent people.”
“I think it’s time that people start asking Dino Rossi, ‘When are you going to do your homework, when are you going to stop damaging people’s names in your quest for power,’ ” said David McDonald, an attorney for Democrats.
…
McDonald said it took only “a matter of minutes” for his team to quickly discern that the supposed illegal votes on that list could easily be explained. To illustrate the point, the Democratic lawyers showed blown-up copies of pages from various King County poll books.In one example, a copied page appears to show that a woman who the GOP alleges voted twice only signed for one ballot. A poll worker’s notation under the woman’s signature apparently got counted as a second signature.
In another example, the Rossi camp claims someone voted in the name of a dead woman, but a copied poll book seems to show that a voter accidentally signed on the wrong line — one line below his correct space.
Of the 15 names initially turned over by Republicans last week, the Democratic lawyers said, they’ve yet to verify a single illegal vote.
You mean Rossi’s people still haven’t looked in the poll books?
Man… and Republicans accuse Democrats of being incompetent.
McDonald said it took only “a matter of minutes” for his team to quickly discern that the supposed illegal votes on that list could easily be explained.
Before I weigh in too much, it will be interesting to see how the list pans out. If the sample examined is typical though, Rossi is going to look much worse not better. How many felons actually voted?
At least we now know why the Rossi team not only refrained from making the list public but even resisting the democrat’s request for the information.
In any event, finding felons who voted are not relevant unless there is proof how they voted, if this could ever be done.
However, for general interest it is interesting to see that they report to have generally voted for Rossi.
You LEFTIST’s keep obsessing with the strawman.
You act like this is the ONLY issue in this election contest.
You are in for a big surprise.
Erik–
Don’t you think the LEFTY’s intentionally keep reporting felons that claim to have voted for Rossi??? How many “others” have they talked to that they conveniently don’t report because it doesn’t support the LEFTY spin??
I mean, your ilk publicly claimed they wanted to “count every vote” then proceeded to lie and “interview” provisional voters and only pursue those that voted for Gregoire. Dirty trick??
There are also claims that some Rossi voters actually gave affadavits to people who came to their door….yet their vote was never counted.
Would it be a “dirty trick” for a LEFTY to get an affadavit from a Rossi voter and then fail to turn it in?? Is that fraud Erik? Or worse??
Another tip Goldy–focusing too much on what you are fed can make you as fat, dumb and happy as my Mrs. C!!
A reasonable person would not want Rossi as Governor after seeing what desperate tactics he resorts to. He is getting real close to dilluting himself. The voter roles have stipulations how they can be used. Rossi’s last trick, the $10.00 check was gross, selective and misleading; used for purposes other than face value presented. Not been a legal professional, I am not going to speculate what charges, if any, could be filed against such an act of undecency but I do know Rossi is sneaky, operating in a way that dislodges his own position which now in the area of good ethics and trust is down to the bottom of the barrel he scraps from.
Is this surprising?
NO!
It is consistent with the republican party.
Washington state, is just the latest arena in which the republicans have chosen to run a lying hateful smear campaign.
Were we to examine the ohio and florida discepencies, in 2000, and 2004, this closely, the whole country would be in an uproar over the criminal activity of the republican weasels.
I am very confident in the next poll Rossi will have dropped in the publics eye. Much like CynicalIdiot in the eyes of the world.
Cynical’s sounding more desperate than ever, but that’s to be expected. His gravy train will end when the BIAW runs out of new ways to conjure up “evidence”.
Each time they do, of course, it turns out to be another red herring and only serves as an attempt to divert attention from the fact that all of their previous smoking guns turned out to be “shoot blanks” too.
Face it Cynical, the Republicans have no case. You’ve been a broken record for months here claiming the Republicans are holding back “smoking guns” that will blow the case wide open. Good luck looking for work.
Facist tactics are very unsettling. Mussolini’s doctrine of taking away free elctions is alive and well. When you start challenging all voters as to their legitamacy to vote under our privacy laws you are eroding the system you claim to be upholding. Rossi is making registered voters think twice about wanting to vote. No joke. Dating back before world war two, Hitler as well as Mussolini attacked the system of voting in order to control the people and take away their freedoms. This is the FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS. Rossi is going after felons, Hitler and Mussolini went after Jews, homosexuals and intellectuals. Facism creeps and seeps through cracks, starting by going after some target group. Many in the group on Rossi’s black list thought they could vote. Turning people over to the prosecuting attorney’s office is an extraordinary manuver. The agruement that it is a felony to vote when not eligible is not the crux of the REAL problem. Like the groundhog he is, Rossi has came out of his hole to see his own shadow. Shadows of Mussolini and Hitler.
jcricket–
BIAW “gravy train”? Everyone who disagrees with your MARXIST Dogma is either a BIAW operative or Karl Rove Minion or the Boogie-Man. You are completely paranoid. Obviously I have gotten under you skin dude. Look, I’m winning Goldy’s poll!! That’s like a “badge of honor” for me.
FYI..I don’t need work. Unlike you, I have worked hard, invested well and prospered. What motivates me here is I want the same opportunities for my kids and grandkids. What also motivates me is a strong desire for Election accountability for KingCo and meaningful reform. That will not happen unless Rossi continues his efforts. Look at the meanigless BS the Dems have already proposed.
jcricket is clearly a LEFTIST Government hack posting on government time until he saw some of his government working buddies get busted for this type of thievery. My other goal is to see entrenched bureaucrats like jcricket weeded out. Gregoire will keep jcricket gleefully at the trough.
Let’s see. The R’s have about a 3% error rate. That seems to be what King County claims is an acceptable error. So what’s the problem?
Oh yeah. If King County had done the job right in the first place we would not even be discussing this issue.
So much spin, so little truth.
bush lost by 500,000 votes in florida, even though, the republicans through these same type tactics, cleansed the voter rolls, by hundreds of thousands of legitimate voters, that had either similar names as felons, or just lived near them it seems…..george bush was never elected in 2000, and would then not have been re elected in 2004.
Its too bad rossis team is getting help from the rnc, we all know their dirty tricks already, and they are not smart enough to come up with new ones.
Mr Cynical@
You said you have strong desire of election accountability. If that is so, it is not okay with you that Rossi’s agent sent out a “fake” survey for Rossi that was intended to enhance Rossi’s case. Rossi’s Posse has acting as if accountability is one sided? Fake election vs fake survey. It appears Rossi is as pure as the driven slush.
Diggindude@10
You sure gave yourself the right name, cause you certainly had to dig to come up with that brain fart!
Cynical – You’ve never been farther off in your characterization of me, which it’s so funny to watch you froth at the mouth.
You’re like that little kid who gets beat up again and again and then while wiping the spittle from his mouth yells “YOU’LL BE SORRY! YOU JUST WAIT”
Obviously three out of a thousand does not prove that the whole list is invalid, but it does prove how sloppy the Republicans were on this. Frankly, I also wonder if the politics of this are turning against Rossi as well. There is a reason most politicians concede close elections.
A good percentage we can just chalk up to respect for the democratic institutions and the damage that undermining the system does to our republic – something Rossi does not seem concerned about. But besides idealism, there are also the political dangers. Up until the last couple of weeks, I would say that Rossi’s victim strategy was playing well politically, but the tide seems to have turned with the BIAW stupidity and now the sloppy felons list. To pull this off, the Republicans needed to be as pure as driven snow – slush isn’t going to get you very far except with the die-hard wingnuts who already believe in you.
nindid @ 14 that is an impossibility…neocons as pure as snow….but wait…..maybe you are right….snow always melts in the Pacific Northwest….and the repbugs are melting like the wicked witch in the Wizard of Oz…in fact not melting….self destructing is the more appropriate word
I realize I am breaking the cardinal rule of not feeding the trolls, but let me just say this….
My father worked for the government as did his father. I began my career working for the government as well. I take offense at the irrational bile thrown at government workers. I was a firefighter for nearly ten years and worked damn hard doing back-breaking labor. We made a fraction of the money we could have made in similar lines of work in the private sector. I won’t speak for anyone else, but I did it because I loved my job, loved working with the bro’s and liked the fact that every now and then I got to really help people.
I do not expect this to change anyone’s mind about government workers. Once, some of my co-workers and I were resting near the side of a road and a homeowner came out and lambasted us for being lazy government workers. The irony of it was is that we had just busted our butts – working 39 hours in two days – to save this guy’s house. Some people just have this irrational hatred for government and there is little to be done about it. There is waste in all organizations, and perhaps there is even more in some government programs, but next time please show some respect.
jcricket–
So you are trying to convince us that with all the LEFTIST BS you have spewed, that you are somehow a free-enterprise capitalist??? GIMMEE A BREAK!!
You sure seem mighty confident that you have seen everything dude.
So jcricket…what do you suspect the Republican lawyers will ask Logan, Huennekens and the entire KingCo Election staff? Just curious. I suppose they will ask them about their childhood…were they happy etc. How is the family. What is their favorite dessert. Are they Mariners fans. Will the Sonics win it all this year. Stuff like that, right??
We sure wouldn’t want to ask them hard questions about the BIG BINDER would we.
GOLDY and his ilk have been very, very quiet about the BIG BINDER lately. Could it be because that BIG BINDER shows KingCo failed to do required conciliations, failed to disclose all discrepancies? Failed to investigate all discrepancies??
It would be mean to ask Logan about that kind of stuff, huh??
So GOLDY…you were going to review that BIG BINDER awhile back.
WHAT HAPPENED????
And when you review it, would you please set up a spreadsheet for each precindt, categorize discrepancies and then add them all up please.
It would be nice if you actually did some meaningful work rather than wait for Stefan to do it all and desperately try to nitpick it. Oh, I’m sorry…I forgot Goldy…YOU ARE NOT CAPABLE!!
on that post nindid @ 16 I do have empathy for you. I am also sick and tired of all government employees being lumped into a ‘pot’ by the neocons……I am glad to know one who had been there and done that. best of luck in your life.
chuck @ 12
i bet my analogy is closer to the truth than yours would be.
Here’s the Cynical flow-chart (sorry I can’t post a Visio diagram here):
0) Cynical promises a big surprise…
1) BIAW/Republicans release some new “bombshell” accusation.
2) Cynical loudly jumps on the BIAW/Republican bandwagon, touting this as a smoking gun.
3) The press and Democrats investigate and discredit the latest accusation (because the evidence was shoddy or poorly researched)
5) Cynical starts pretending the latest discredited bombshell wasn’t what he was counting on and accuses everyone of being a government “hack”
6) Cynical promises a big surprise…
Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
And Cynical – your BIAW and Republican buddies have admitted they’re not interested in asking questions. They start with their conclusion and go looking for evidence to support it, ignoring everything else along the way. That’s the worst kind of science, but exactly what I’d expect from you.
diggindude @ 19 you have to realize that chuckies hero of his lifetime is Ronald Reagan…enough said
Thanks jpgee – things are going well. I don’t take the things that Cynical and others say too seriously, they are just spewing out their crap to try and get a rise out of people and/or to destroy real conversations. If they actually believe half of what they say, well, then they are so far gone down the rabbit hole as to be unreachable.
jpgee@21
Not my lifetime hero but the finest president in history most probably.
nindid–
Don’t take yourself so seriously dude.
Rather than waste your time here…do something productive like go to KingCo and take a look at Goldy’s legendary BIG BINDER.
You can’t miss it..
It has fiery eye’s, a Pinocchio nose and Dumbo ears.
It is 3 story’s tall and wanders through the downtown Seattle streets like King Kong.
Goldy has gone deathly quiet about his BIG BINDER theory.
He told us he was going to see it over a week ago.
What happened Goldy??
What did it show Goldy??
Let’s see YOUR compilation of the 2616 KingCo precidnts DISCREPANCIES in these pollbook reconciliations.
Whatsamatta Goldy…
nindid@22
Hiding in rabbit holes is generally reserved for libs when their ignorant ideas blow up in their face (ie Clinton Healthcare) conservatives are usually out in public and open with things.
Democrats don’t get it. Character and integrity don’t matter. Who cares if a few innocent people get smeared by being falsely accused of illegally voting? Principles are what matters. Principally, getting power for Republicans. If a few little bugs get smooshed in the process, so be it.
Check KING5.COM they have a guy from that list who voted Gregiore, Whoever they voted for they voted for illegally THAT IS THE POINT! you can’t throw out accusations that most of the felons voted Rossi, why you ask? BECAUSE YOU DON”T KNOW THAT ANYMORE THAN I DO!
lol, 100%
Mr. Cynical@24
Oh but they poined out how about 7 of the felons could legally vote…7 of them give me a break Goldy is that your best?
Any seaman with an ounce of law under their belt knows you can’t run under one flag and change the flag. Rossi’s fake housing survey did just that. Misuse of voter rolls is well covered in the law. Where was Rossi when they passed out an ounce of brains?
Chee@30
Hey can I have some of that stuff you are smoking? With illusions like you have I just might want to take up smoking that stuff!
Chee-to Brain–
This was about validating the provisional ballot affadavits your LEFTIST pals harvested. You all KNEW someone was going to look at them because of the fact that chee–sey Berendt brought them in. Remember? Crying and blubbering…telling us every single one of them was legitimate!!!
What are you going to say if Berendt brought in some phoney ones, hmmm?
Are you going to be so noble to ask Berendt to resign?
Chee-to Brain—Berendt attested to the validity of those affadavits. Face it…the Dems have a big PR and legal problem here. Bringing in false affadavits. OUCH!!!!!!!!!!
you knew when Mary Lane started parsing the accuracy of the list (“mostly accurate,” “maybe a few errors,”), that meant a LOT of errors, and a lot of people wrongfully charged. It’s uncanny how little legwork WSRP is doing. I already knew from Egan that at least half of the “dead people voting” in King were legit voters signing on the wrong line, as the media discovered.
Reagan–probably best president ever…heh. He wasn’t even the best president of the 80s.
why does cynical keep capitalizing leftist? It’s almost like he thinks it’s bad to be leftist. Why does he think so poorly of a majority of the population?
Mr. Cynical@32
I might be wrong but doesnt that constitute a conspiracy??? Isnt that what the democrats have been saying needs to be proven?
torridjoe@33
So I guess you were either a fan of bumbling Jimmy, nice man but worthless as president, or mr Ill puke on the Japs Bush Sr? actually I didnt care for either…
Bush Sr, yes. Smart fiscally, and the best foreign policy president of the last 50 years.
torridjoe@37
Reagan had exelent foregn policy, as well as an even better economic plan. And made America proud once again instead of like the libs do trying to break the country down.
excellent foreign policy? Iran Contra? Grenada? You must be kidding.
And the economic plan that plunged us into deficit and brought higher poverty and lower real income to 60% of the country? Yeah, that was SWEET!
And the economic plan that plunged us into deficit and brought higher poverty and lower real income to 60% of the country? Yeah, that was SWEET!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Brought to you by Bush SR.
excellent foreign policy? Iran Contra? Grenada? You must be kidding.>>>>>>>>>
All kidding aside, yes including those cases.
no, brought to us by Reagan. Bush began to fix the problem with tax code reform; Clinton and Reich finished the job.
Go check out the income quintiles for the 80s. They are the classixc textbook for the failure of trickle-down theory. There was no trickling. We’re seeing EXACTLY the same phenomenon now, as a result of the tax code idiocy of Bush Jr.
Reagan gets credit for START, and that’s about it.
No, the economy took a crap while Clinton was in office, this Bush is actually getting us back out of what Clinton left us…the Clinton Legacy, no jobs, no respect, did NOTHING about the original attack on the twin towers or the Cole.
Cynical @ 2
What does it take to get a Republican to understand that “claims” and “facts” are two different things?
chuck, I suggest you spend some time at the Bureau of Labor Statistics site. The economy was the best since 1946 under Clinton. No jobs? Try 23 MILLION jobs more than when he took office. Bush? ZERO. Clinton was the ONLY president to use the Social Security overages to actually pay down the debt and reduce our liabilities there (I do have to correct myself a bit; the 1983 law Reagan and Congress worked out to avoid problems with SS was a great thing; if only Reagan and Congress didn’t immediately start spending that money in the general budget).
I don’t know what your point is about terrorism, but you have bad info on the Twin Towers. There were arrests and convictions, remember? And it was Bush who did nothing about the Cole, not Clinton. The Cole happened at the very end of his term, and the culprit was not fully concluded until about a month before the end. Having been handed Somalia on Inauguration Day; Clinton’s team waited and fully briefed the Bush Jr admin on the situation. The latter abjectly refused to do anything at all. Anything.
The facts are indisputable–while still not enough, no president in history did more to combat terrorism before 9/11 than Clinton. Bush Jr destroyed our counterterrorism capability, opening the door for 9/11.
don @ 45
it never happens. when you refute all the allegations, you end up back where you started, and they then re hash the circle of accusations all over again.
The term “vicious circle” was originally a code name for covert plans created by the republicans as a particular campaign strategy.
Cynical @ 17
Would someone please mail Cynical a copy of the BIG BINDER so he’ll SHUT UP!
Chuck @ 25
“Hiding in rabbit holes is generally reserved for libs when their ignorant ideas blow up in their face (ie Clinton Healthcare)”
The Repugs trashed Clinton’s healthcare proposal. Since then, the number of Americans without health care has grown by several million more. Good job, Repugs. You should be real proud of yurselves, and I’ll bet you are, too.
Chuck @ 38
Oh yeah, I’ll bet you were real proud of American nuns getting murdered by U.S.-backed death squads in Central America. Exactly the sort of thing that gives a winger a warm glow in his chest.
When clinton left office Boeing plane orders were in the crapper, and most local economies were in serious trouble, this is the reality, although Clinton had about 6 years of good economy, the tax increases took their toll on the economy, as far as the Cole it was neglecting policies under Clinton that allowed it to happen at all. Oh and they arrested the bombers…nice, but even though they knew who was responsible, they left the organization to do it again, thanks again Billy Bob!
Chuck @ 44
“No, the economy took a crap while Clinton was in office”
You’re being facetious, right? You’re joking, aren’t you? It isn’t possible for anyone to be this outrageously ill-informed, ignorant, or outright dishonest. I hope.
“A check by The Seattle Times of 33 of the names on the list found three cases that appeared to be in error. The others appeared to be properly included on the list.” – seattle times
“Others named by Republicans have contacted news organizations to say they also don’t belong on the list, either because they weren’t convicted of a felony or because their voting rights had been restored. HOWEVER, court records show that in some of those cases the voters were, in fact, supposed to be barred from casting ballots.” – seattle times
They’re (Democrats) the ones who asked for the list,” she said. “Come on, that’s the reason it’s public; they requested it. – seattle times
Lets try telling the whole story and not just tender morsels of indoctrination, sound like a plan Goldy?
diggin @ 47
Yeah, I know. Trying to reason with a Repuglican is like trying to create art from Silly Putty.
You’re being facetious, right? You’re joking, aren’t you? It isn’t possible for anyone to be this outrageously ill-informed, ignorant, or outright dishonest. I hope>>>>>>>>>>
No I am not joking, and anyone that was alive and capable of rational thought at the time knows this…this is a big reason Gore lost.
Perhaps a little lite reading may help bring you around?
http://www.insidepolitics.org/.....22300.html
Here is more,
http://www.usatoday.com/news/o.....ick070.htm
bush has wasted 1500 american lives, spent hundreds of billions of dollars, and morre people are dying today than before the oil war started.
there have been ten fold more terrorist atacks on us targets since bush has been in office, than in the last 50 years.
What are you considering a terrorist attack on a US target…want to know how deep you dug to get that jewel….
chuck @ 56
all that says it that it was slowing down–yeah, slowing down from heights never seen. The recession that followed was the shortest, mildest downcycle on record. That doesn’t change the reality of strong GDP, millions of new jobs, fiscal surpluses, and actual payment of debt.
tj @ 60
And never mind the fact that the dot com buble was in mid burst.
us targets
every day brings a new terrorist atack on us soldiers. dont they qualify as a us target?
its no more a stretch than you calling the reagan, bush, bush, recessions, a fault of clinton’s.
uh hum!… off topic guys try the open thread.
Then in your figures you need to count the “terrorist” attacks in WWI, WWII, Korean war and Veitnam, that throws your theory.
Mr. Callaway @ 9
I may be dumb, happy and, ummm, pleasingly plump, but I cannot figure out your reasoning in saying the Republican list had a 2% error rate. The seattle times found that 3 of 33 names on the list were in error. That is a 9% error rate, isn’t it? And 6 of seven voters who “voted twice” didn’t, which is an 86% error rate. The Seattle PI said that “at least” 1 of 45 “dead voter” cases was in error, but it did not say that they checked the other 44 cases. All we know is that the “dead voter” error rate will be over 2%.
Considering how humiliating it will be for the 1100 people on that list (and you read how horrifying it was for the man whose case had been dismissed), I hope Mr. Rossi personally apologizes to the people wrongly included on the list.
Hugs and Kisses!
“got their felon list from the State Patrol…”
WTF? That’s not where the counties get their lists, I don’t believe. What’s the point of crosschecking a list the counties never see?
Don @ 48–
The BIG BINDER obviously has some serious issues with it.
Logan was supposed to reconcile precindts, identify discrepancies, investigate discrepancies and report them to the canvassing board.
Oh my….The Canvassing Board Members were LOGAN and PHILLIPS!!!
If they send me the BIG BINDER…I’d appreciate the unaltered one as well. This is going to get mighty interesting Don.
Goldy has apparently taken a vow of silence about the BIG BINDER…perhaps the BIG BINDER has bound and gagged him!!
I can’t wait to hear Goldy’s lameass excuse explaining why he hasn’t actually seen the legendary (and perhaps mythical) BIG BINDER that Goldy claims will shut up Sharkansky and show the KINGCO Election was 100% accurate. NO ERRORS, NO NEGLECT, NO PROBLEM…right Goldy?
those attacks were from an opposing army, not from imported terrorists.
Agreed with Goldy. Two wrongs don’t = right. It’s THAT simple.
adriel@63.
Back on topic. No amount of smearing will salvage the Rossi case. Both of the Republican’s attempts to get legislation passed died in committee (1)– to require all Washington voters to reregister. (2).. Proposal for a revote of the 2004 election.
tj @46
”The facts are indisputable–while still not enough, no president in history did more to combat terrorism before 9/11 than Clinton. Bush Jr destroyed our counterterrorism capability, opening the door for 9/11.”
I will take issue with you on this factually erroneous statement. As I recall from reading the 9/11 report , nothing is further from the truth. Further, with only 8 months on the job, Bush saw a plan that had been conceived at least as early as 1998 executed.
None of us needs to think much before remembering what we were doing that day. Political posturing on a comment thread would have been unbecoming, to say the least.
Marks@71. You have a point. No one presidant can stop or start terrorism. Creating anxiety is the core of terrorism, create the fear. striking when least expected and where not expected. Any incoming president gets a lot of leftovers. WHat portion of an administration is to blame is hard to tell from the bleachers. Presidancy is a job that ages one sooner than normal and in more cases than not the errors made are what is most talked of; rather a thankless occupation in many ways. What most people remember about the Bill Clinton is not his gracious Southern charm or good works to his credit. Standing out in their mind is “I did not have sex with that woman.”
The facts are indisputable–while still not enough, no president in history did more to combat terrorism before 9/11 than Clinton. Bush Jr destroyed our counterterrorism capability, opening the door for 9/11.
Comment by torridjoe— 3/5/05 @ 11:47 am
Joe, You are at it again. I thought you would have learned from the last time. Stop stating “Opinion” as fact:…it will bite you in the ass, again. (example: Hand counts are more accurate then Machine counts…) Please save me from having to continually embarrass you and prove you wrong in front of all your friends. While entertaining, it is getting tiring.
Cynical… Good job as usual – The Leftys grap whatever little sliver they can and scream really loud and jump up and down to divert attention from the real story. Keep on on ’em
it’s not opinion in the slightest. Count any way you want–tripled funding, higher priority in the NSC, Congressional Task forces, prevention of a major multi-site attack on New Year’s 2000. When Clinton left office, terrorism was the #1 priority of the DoJ. When Bush took office, it fell off the page, literally. It became a subhead of something else. When Clinton left office, the counter terrorism people had DAILY access to the Cabinet. When Bush took office, they were busted down to sub-Cabinet. It took 9 months to get a meeting at the Cabinet level, after Bush. It’s not even close.
And hand counts ARE more accurate. That’s accepted. What’s your source that says otherwise?
chee @ 74
I don’t doubt that’s where they got it at all. What I’m saying is that’s not where the COUNTIES got their lists. So it doesn’t say much negative about the counties when they may not have even had access to the names on Rossi’s list.
on recounts–remember I specified a hand recount of a manual recount as the best measure of accuracy:
http://www.missouri.edu/~news/.....ntFEC.html
Chee @72
For me, Bill Clinton stands out as a President who was capable of navigating the right and left issues. He did it well. Some people can choose to fault him for his demons, but he did plenty as a centrist that I credit him with. He kinda had to, with an opposition in power in the legislative branch.
I never voted for him, but he was my/our President, just as Gore or Kerry would have been were they elected in 2000/2004. I would have hated it as much as some hate Bush being President, I suppose, but we are a nation, and to me that entity, the United States, is the one thing that should not divide us, but bring us together.
I will now karaoke “Kumbaya”…be glad you didn’t hear it. I do mean everything I wrote above…perhaps making me weird?
Partisan crap seems to have become a mainstay for some people, and I understand it. I had (okay, still have) plenty to go ’round. I just hope I can think before I speak…
“The human mind treats a new idea the same way the body treats a strange protein; it rejects it.”
P. B. Medawar
another good cite on the process of supplementing machine counts with manual counts of those that were rejected:
http://www.jurist.law.pitt.edu.....mnew72.php
Ah, tj-
Dispute @71. Provide links to [ad infinitum] non-partisan web pages that dispute the 9/11 Report. Waiting…
marks @ 78
there are a number of things about Clinton that bothered me–he was no friend of the first Amendment, at least until I saw what could be done to it in the hands of some REAL assholes–but his record on the economy is unassailable IMO. Perhaps he rode the dotcom boom, but he also did wonders with the international money scene (at least his Treasury guy did), and he didn’t blow the good times on crap. We moved distinctly forward during his terms.
marks @ 80
see 75. And that’s material from the hearings that I’m citing.
start with section 6, pg 191.
tj @82
If you expect me to believe that Bush somehow had control over 2001 funding, from a budget that was created in 2000 (December 2000, as I recall) under Clinton, I think I have a right to be skeptical.
After 9/11/2001 the budget was written to reflect the changed contingency of terror.
I never said anything about funding re Bush; what I said was that Clinton tripled it, which is true. However, it IS true that Rumsfeld rejected sizeable funding requests both just before and just after 9/11; I can bring up a cite for you on that with some work, if necessary.
tj,
So your basline argument is the tripling of funds under President Clinton? Which year did that occur, hmmm…1999? Thus Bush should have immediately triple funded again in 2001?
My point is you seem to claim he (Bush) did nothing or worse…somehow Rumsfeld held him in check…Why was this not brought to light in the reelection campaign? Media complicity? Policy wonkishness which is above the average citizen? What?
Chuck @ 55
You’re nuts. The Clinton years were the best economy of my lifetime — the best market for job seekers, the lowest inflation, the most prosperity my family has ever known. The Reagan Depression was hell. The Nixon inflation was hell. Dubya’s economic policies positively frighten me.
Cynical @ 67
You do know how to fill out a public records request, don’t you?
marks @ 71
“Further, with only 8 months on the job, Bush saw a plan that had been conceived at least as early as 1998 executed.”
With only 8 months off the job, you mean. Junior spent 42% of his first 8 months in office vacationing in Texas. Apparently he thought being president consists of doing nothing but collecting the paycheck and waving when the Marine Band plays “Hail to the Chief.”
The issue of blame for 9-11 has been debated until the cows come home. The 9-11 Commission, understandably reluctant to offend powerful politicians, pulled its punches but hinted that Clinton and Bush both bore some fault. GOP partisans refuse to acknowledge that Bush was negligent in dismissing warnings and ignoring the threat; Clinton partisans are unwilling to admit that Bill could have been more aggressive against Al Qaeda earlier on. The truth is somewhere in the middle; we ALL were blind to the possibility that became a horrifying reality, despite the 1993 wake-up call when A.Q. tried (and failed) to flatten the WTC.
The Clinton administration did hunt down, arrest, successfully prosecute, and incarcerate the perpetrators of the 1993 WTC attack. They did fail to prevent several attacks on U.S. overseas and installations and, of course, the USS Cole. The usual right-wing criticism of Clinton is that he treated A.Q. as a law enforcement problem instead of a war. The truth is that until WTC no president would had public support for invading other countries or waging all-out war with military means.
It’s not possible to have an objective conversation about Bush’s leadership in today’s partisan environment. And I don’t claim to be non-partisan. I am willing to give him credit for going after A.Q. aggressively, because that’s what the situation calls for. He’s good at the “rah-rah” part of being a war time leader. But I don’t see how anyone willing to be honest about his presidency can get around the fact he committed three big screwups: He was caught napping on 9-11, he attacked the wrong country when he invaded Iraq, and he lost the initial world support enjoyed by the U.S. by alienating nearly everyone with his clumsy diplomacy. That’s just plain incompetent leadership from a president and I expect better from someone who aspires to be the leader of the free world.
So when did the “BUSH JR” recession begin?
http://www.nber.com/cycles/november2001/
http://mediamatters.org/items/200405010002
ok, sorry, i’ll take it to another thread.
marks@78. Good comman sense there. And yes, there should be a honorable respect for the officeholder elected by the people. Those who do not earn the respect given an be voted out if that is the majority’s wishes. There is some good in the worst of us. Could you please burn me a CD of you singing Kumbaya. :-)
Don@88. Please Don. Your expecting too much of Mr. Cynical. Filling out a form is Mrs Cynicals job. Besides that she would have to read him THE BIG BINDER,
what do you guys expect from Dino Lossi and his bedpartners? He could work for a thief…and he learned the trade well. He has no conscious, no morals and no credibility.. This year will be teh end of this arrogant blood sucker for the state of Washington. His bedpartners in WDC might keep him alive….but I doubt very much if they will accept damaged goods
Reagan depression? Dont you mean the Carter depression? The first 2 -3 years of Reagans administration was spent fixing Carters double digit inflation as well as double digit interest rates, the building industry was all but tanked. Remember when Chrysler was $1.00 per share? That was a combination of bad management AND Jimmy Carter. Reagans second term saw growth unheard of before.
PS…the sap sucker righties are smart enough, just barely to know that he is perpetually damaged goods. Like CynicalIdiot….off the page of reality
jpg@94. Thug tactics are not how you win or overthrow an election in America. Any true-blooded American that can not see what Rossi is doing is blind as a bat. Sensible beings frown upon Peeping Toms. It appears the pediphile code may apply. Once a Peeping Tom, always a Peeping Tom. I believe Rossi has went beyond the Republican Party, playing I Spy on his own time with his own cronies. A political Party when a member like Rossi has become a loose cog in the wheel. Dino is drowning in his own juice. Cutting his lose and running may soon become his only option.
HEY EVERYONE READ THIS!!!
They’re (Democrats) the ones who asked for the list,” she said. “Come on, that’s the reason it’s public; they requested it. – seattle times
Care to put both feet in your mouth?
A Republican is someone born on third base that thinks they hit a triple.
Joe@75
Since you must fail to read the posts directed at you I have pasted a response, the one I gave you in “Study shows WA elections errors one-tenth of national standard” blog, below. As you’ll see your “And hand counts ARE more accurate. That’s accepted. What’s your source that says otherwise?” is an OPINION not shared by even your friend DEan Logan. READ It this time and you wont have to look like an ass making the same stupid comments over and over and over again. Do I reaaly need to go into the lame ass Clinton was a anti-terror super hero crap?
From earlier post: ******************
comment @ 144
Joe, I have a little quote for you. You will find that many disagree with your OPINION of the accuracy of the hand count over a machine count, Dean Logan include…..
“When you’re talking about close to 900,000 pieces of paper, I think the machine count is going to be more accurate than a manual count,” said Dean Logan, the elections director. “You introduce another human interface into the process. There’s a margin there for errors to be made.”
Spin away………………
Comment by Chris— 3/3/05 @ 3:10 pm
Joe, who knows better here you or Dean logan? What is his title again?
Comment by Chris— 3/3/05 @ 3:16 pm
More for you Joe,
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....nt05m.html
I pasted some key points form the linked article here.
*****
From Spokane to Seattle, elections offices are about to begin the staggering and unprecedented task of hand counting 2.8 million ballots. But will the hand count in the governor’s race really be any more accurate than the two previous counts?
Even experts can’t agree. It’s not clear whether humans or machines are better at vote counting.
*********
“It’s closer than the technology and our capacity as humans to decipher,” said Jeffery Mondak, a political-science professor at Florida State University. “You folks would do as well to flip a coin as to try to determine who actually won.”
*************
“There is a margin of error in connection with any measurement system, whether we’re counting fish in a lake or counting votes for a governor,” said Kirk Wolter, a statistics professor at the University of Chicago who did research on what happened in Florida during the 2000 presidential election.
In an election, Wolter said, “there are millions of human interactions, and we’re all human and we all make random mistakes.”
***************
Secretary of State Reed says he doesn’t consider either machine or hand counts to be more accurate than the other.
************
Twist it Joe, Come on. You said it (your opinion that you stated as fact) is Only Common Sense. Do you want to concede the point now or should I continue?
Comment by Chris— 3/3/05 @ 3:28 pm
I win, you lose. This may be the only contest that has a clear and undisputable victor.
Comment by Chris— 3/3/05 @ 3:31 pm
Joe.
All of us can come up with studies and Opinions to support both sides of the manual vs hand recount accuracy issue. That is why it is OPINION on both sides of the issue. It is highly disputed by both camps which is more accurate. Just because you agree with the hand recount accuracy does not make it the gospel truth in accuracy………quit being a dipshit and get your head out of your HorsesAss.
The general concensus of a hand count, is defined as just that. a hand count, but when you factor in the scrutiny of having 3 to 6 sets of eyes going over each and every ballot, the hand count, is more accurate.
1/3 of washington state stll uses punch card type machines. there are many studies to show relatively high error rates when machine reading these type ballots. Some of the most critical information, coming from the manufacturures.
The most obvious evidence of machine handicap, comes from the first 2 counts. The machine count changed.
Nameless yo-yo, troll @ 98, CAPS for attention hiding behind no name. Must be one of Rossi’s hit and run trolls.
Chris–how odd that you accuse me of not reading, when you apparently spent hours researching a rebuttal to a point I never made. If you search back in this thread, you’ll find that I explicitly said a MANUAL COUNT THAT FOLLOWS A MACHINE COUNT is the most accurate gauge of who won. You made no effort to dispute it. Why is it so? Because hand counts are more accurate; machines are more precise. What does this mean? It means a machine can take a given set of ballots and produce the same count of them, over and over and over. HOWEVER, and it’s a big however, it cannot read a valid vote that is not completed to the machine’s specs for reading it. For that–which is called ‘residual error’–you are best served by supplementing the machine count with a manual recount of rejected ballots.
Your cites all deal with relative accuracy in a vacuum, as if you had to choose one or the other. In this case, as in most elections, there is no choice. You run a machine count, then verify with a hand count. There is nothing you have presented to dispute the truism that this reflects a more accurate count than either by itself.
tool @ 98
they asked for it, because it’s REQUIRED BY LAW that they see it.
I hate to say it, but I think the discussion between the accrucay between machine and hand, has really no revelance if the ballots numbers where different. The number of ballots counted changed with each count. If “a” ballot wasnt valid/illegal, then this is a moot point. As Torridjoe explained to be in other topic, there is no process in place to weed out the invalid/illegal votes. So the Election was Flawed will errors.
chrisN (Chris??) at @106
the number of ballots SHOULD change with each count, IMO. Typically they should increase, as subsequent passes identify more legitimate votes.
I never said there was no process, unless you mean once they are cast. Then yes, that’s the case–because ballots are secret, and they are cast under the presumption of validity. And “Flawed will errors” (sic) is also true, and I don’t think there’s really been any argument here about that. The argument is, to what end, and what remedy?
Chee @92
Trust me, you don’t want to subject yourself to that. Even my dog covered her ears…unless you just want it to annoy your loud neighbors…
marks @ 84
It was equally ludicrous for right-wing Clinton-haters to assert that Clinton “gutted” the military, and for the same reason, wasn’t it? After all, Bush went to war in Afghanistan and Iraq with Clinton’s military budget and forces, didn’t he? Because Bush’s first budget didn’t kick in until Oct. 2002. Here is what Clinton did to the military: In the Gulf War (1991), it took three days to designate a target for airstrike and get ordnance on the target, and 90% of the bombs were “dumb.” In Afghanistan and Iraq (2003), it took 19 minutes and 90% of the ordnance was “smart.” Clinton is the president who modernized the weaponry our troops are fighting with today.
Chee @ 93
Yeah I know, I’m just trying to rub his face in his intellectual incompetence.
Chuck @ 95
Excuse me, but Carter inherited Nixon’s inflation. Remember Nixon’s abortive price controls? Remember the toilet paper shortage? That occurred on Nixon’s watch! The only time in history this country ran out of asswipe was when a Republican was president! Crow all you want about Reagan’s “growth,” the deeper the hole you started in, the longer the ladder you had to climb to get out of it, is that not so? The dumbest thing the Reaganauts did was believe “trickle down” (the right-wing version of a perpetual-motion machine) works. It doesn’t, even Reagan’s budget directorm, David Stockman, said so. The Reagan deficits were highly destructive to the economy, and both Reagan and his successor, Bush Sr., had to raise taxes several times to keep the deficits from sinking the economy.
And it appears that ALL of the lessons from that era were totally lost upon Dumya.
98
Get real! The Democrats requested, and are entitled to, discovery of the evidence the GOPers plan to use in court to overthrow the election. OF COURSE the Demcratic lawyers asked to see their proof!!! And you spin this into an assertion that the Democrats are responsible for the list going public? How idiotic can you get!
ChrisN @ 106
What it proves is that each recount added legitimate votes that were missed in the earlier counts. That tells me the final, hand, recount was the most accurate of all. But that’s just my “opinion.”
Don @ innumerable posts above
Don, you’ve got to admit that the local economy in the Seattle area was pretty hot during the late 80’s after the 1982 recession right thru the Bush 1 term. 1979 sucked, that is Carter’s legacy! Remember the gas lines and the hostages? How about giving Reagan some credit here?
As long as you are on this topic of the 80’s being a bad economy, I want to enlighten you why I will NEVER vote for Hillary for anything. During Bill’s first campaign she stated that “Anybody who made money in the 1980’s made it unethically” (obviously not an exact quote). Since I didn’t have 2 nickels to rub together on 1/1/1980 and was in good shape on 12/31/89 I have always felt that she was demagogging against me and all of my peers.
Goldy is avoiding the issue of his BIG BINDER adventure like the plague. WHY?? Because Goldy knows his pals have screwed up. They were supposed to reconcile every precindt, report all discrepancies, investigate all discrepancies and try to explain them.
They didn’t do it very well, did they Goldy!
Don @89
Good comment. I agree with a majority (not all) of your points, especially:
“It’s not possible to have an objective conversation about Bush’s leadership in today’s partisan environment.”
The ranting from both sides on this subject tends to make a sane person tone-deaf. Not that I claim to be sane, but objectivity in political discussion is generally oxymoronic, to put it lightly.
Don @109
You ask a complex question. Here is my ‘simple’ answer:
I left the service in late ’98. I was on an amphibious carrier, LHA Class, during my final two years. My experience there hastened my departure, and I would largely credit the poor morale of the crew with the tempo change that resulted from the accelerated decommissioning of the USS New Orleans , LPH Class amphibious carrier. The salient point in the link is this gem:
”The ship got underway again on January 31, 1997, for another WESTPAC cruise before returning to port on May 2.”
WESTPAC cruises are generally 6 months or longer. The 3 month cycle change altered the LHA operation tempo…
For the two years I was stationed on it, the longest stretch we were docked was two months, and I went through two complete 6-month deployments to my favorite region, the Persian Gulf. It is a lovely destination, let me tell you…
Our weapons systems were constantly being upgraded from the time I first deployed on a carrier in ’88 to my (un)happy departure in ’98. The technology we had by ’98 was incredibly advanced compared to my early Navy days, and continues to advance year to year.
Do I credit President Clinton with that advancement? Sure, just as much as I fault him for my ship’s change in OpTempo above…
Don@a110. I tried to lend some aid to the facial you are trying to give Mr.Cynical but Goldy’s poll button next to Mr. C. was stuck. The pop-up said, Cynical is temporarily out of order. Or maybe it said out of sorts. :-)
zip @ 115
“why I will NEVER vote for Hillary for anything. During Bill’s first campaign she stated that “Anybody who made money in the 1980’s made it unethically” (obviously not an exact quote).”
Come back to me when you have the exact quote. Until then, there’s nothing to discuss.
marks @ 117
I was Army, and today’s Army is being deployed to death by the current president. What is the morale today in the regular Army, the Reserves, and the Guard? Rock bottom I’ll bet.
Chee @ 118
I can’t believe Cynical is leading JCH in Goldy’s poll. I suspect that Cynical voted for himself, er, more than once.
Don@120
Why dont you tell the guys that were at Normandy that our troops are deployed to death today…
Don @120
I’ll take that bet for the regular Army, but I would not touch it for the Guard and Reserves…
I would not dream of blaming Clinton for that, either…
Joe,
ChrisN is not Chris (Me).
Don @ 119
Come on, Don, it was 14 years ago. And Don, there is something to discuss: the rest of my post. “1979 sucked, that is Carter’s legacy! Remember the gas lines and the hostages? How about giving Reagan some credit here?” Are you really that stubborn that you won’t even give Reagan any credit for being an imprvement over Carter?
Mark Braden, rossi lawyer. Funny how this guy gets around. Now what would a top bush lawyer, be doing in washington?
Seems he was an election consultant in afghanistan.
funny thing, he was also mixed up in the 2000 pres election probs, new mexico, fla.
He also, was an assistant to starr in effort to impeach clinton.
Bush team must have a reason to send their top election troubleshooter.
Try google for mark braden.
For Immediate Release
August 19, 2004 Contact: Grant Kippen: 070-277-717 or 079-216-565 (Kabul)
Jean Freedberg (202) 728-5527 (Washington DC)
NDI PRE-ELECTION ASSESSMENT MISSION ISSUES STATEMENT ON
AFGHANISTAN ELECTORAL AND DEMOCRATIC PROCESSES
Kabul, Afghanistan—An international delegation from the National Democratic Institute (NDI) today released a statement summarizing its findings on the state of the electoral and democratic process in Afghanistan. The full statement may be viewed at http://www.ndi.org.
The delegation members were: Zlatko Lagumdzija, Chairman of the Social Democratic Party and former Prime Minister and Foreign Minister of Bosnia and Herzegovina; Paula Newberg, Guest Scholar at the Brookings Institution and Senior Advisor to NDI; Mark Braden, election law expert and former Chief Counsel to the U.S. Republican National Committee; and Patrick Merloe, NDI Senior Associate and Director of NDI Programs on Election and Political Processes.
During its visit to Afghanistan, the delegation held meetings with a wide range of Afghan political and civic leaders, governmental and electoral authorities, and representatives of the international community. The purpose of the delegation was to assess the political environment in Afghanistan as the October 9 presidential election approaches, and to look ahead to the upcoming 2005 parliamentary, provincial and district council elections.
The delegation noted: “The October 9 and the 2005 elections are not end points in democracy building by Afghans, nor should they be an ‘exit strategy’ for the international community. They must be parts of sustained and comprehensive efforts to develop democratic governance and sustainable peace, which requires sufficient time and a comprehensive common plan for nation building. These efforts are a matter for the people of Afghanistan and their leaders. The efforts require and deserve the full commitment of the international community acting in partnership with Afghans.”
The delegation also noted achievements to date, including registering a large number of Afghans-up to 90 % according to official estimates-and mobilizing civic organizations to conduct voter education and encourage public participation in the election. The delegation expressed concern about the decision to hold the presidential election in October and the parliamentary elections in the spring.
This will mean that the newly elected president will serve for several months unchecked by an elected legislature. The delegation called on the presidential candidates to pledge that, if elected, they would not abuse their power of the executive branch during this critical period.
In addition, the delegation recommended ways in which public confidence in the electoral process could be strengthened. These include: greater transparency in decision-making on electoral laws; ensuring that all aspects of the electoral process are open to domestic and international observers; ensuring security at the polls for all participants; and training of poll workers. In addition, it pointed to the need for expanding voter education, and swiftly announcing the election results.
Looking ahead, the delegation called on the international community to commit resources to the process by completing the job of disarmament, demobilization and reintegration (DDR) and providing resources for civic education, domestic monitoring, and security, and for strengthening an independent media.
“The delegation members were impressed with the enthusiasm of those Afghans with whom we met,” said Patrick Merloe. “These individuals see the October 9 presidential election, and the subsequent parliamentary, provincial and district council elections in 2005, as an opportunity to express their political will as well as exercise their fundamental rights as citizens of this country.”
NDI is a nonprofit organization working to strengthen and expand democracy worldwide. Calling on a global network of volunteer experts, NDI provides practical assistance to civic and political leaders advancing democratic values, practices and institutions. NDI works with democrats in every region of the world to build political and civic organizations, safeguard elections, and to promote citizen participation, openness and accountability in government.
NDI has been operating in Afghanistan since March 2002, working to strengthen political parties and civil society organizations. NDI is operating seven political party resource centers throughout the country which are designed to assist parties and civic groups to effectively participate in the political process.
For more information about NDI and its programs around the world, please visit our website at http://www.ndi.org
zip@125
I think that Don is living his fantasy of what could have been……
chuckie @ 127…. and you are just living in total neofantasy…like always……mouth moves…..head turns…..same dribble slops out
Chuck@127. re Don is living his fantasy of what could have been. Aren’t we all. Fantasy Island: population, humongous. Don is an island unto himself. I for one, appreciate what smarts he imparts to this blog whether I agree or disagree.