The Seattle Times reports today that the Rossi camp is complaining about a number of rejected provisional ballots that were found to have had their envelopes opened. Interesting. But I actually chuckled at the article’s lead:
Republicans yesterday found what they say is a new reason to question King County’s handling of ballots cast in the November election.
Come on… we all know the Republicans have only one reason to question King County Elections… it’s good politics.
This is a particularly stupid issue, and shows how desperately they are grasping at rhetorical straws. Generally, provisional ballots are left sealed in their security envelopes unless they are verified. But KC Elections spokeswoman Bobbie Egan explained that the envelopes in question were opened under standard procedure, to determine whether voters had used ballots appropriate to their home precincts. Most provisional ballots don’t have to be opened, because the outside envelope includes enough notation to indicate the type of ballot.
“Procedures were followed,” Egan said. “We’re not hiding anything. This is no smoking gun. This is something that both parties had full knowledge of during the 15-day window after Election Day.”
She said the process “was highly scrutinized by party observers during this time, and it is absolutely ridiculous that they waited to politicize this process five months after the election. There were no requests by the dozens of party observers to change procedures during the time these ballots were handled.”
Sheryl Moss, certification-and-training-program manager for the secretary of state, said neither state nor federal law prohibits opening provisional-ballot envelopes before voters’ eligibility is determined.
Provisional ballots have less secrecy than other ballots, Moss said, because election workers are required to verify that the voter’s votes are counted only for candidates or issues he or she is eligible to vote on.
Of course, GOPolitburo Chair Chris Vance isn’t mollified:
“There’s no good possible explanation for it,” Vance said.
Um… there is a good explanation for it, and both Egan and Moss gave it. The envelopes were opened according to procedure and law, under the scrutiny of observers from both parties. For Vance to imply that there is something shady about this, is to imply fraud… and that is exactly what that shameless, lying bastard is implying.
Well… prove it.
But then, while Republicans have quite skillfully hurled allegations, actually proving things isn’t exactly their strong suit. No wonder Dino Rossi’s attorneys filed a brief yesterday in Chelan County, in which they make the absurd contention that when it comes to their suspect list of alleged felons, the burden should fall on the Democrats to prove that they are not illegal voters… an argument so outrageous, you’d think Stefan was leading their legal team. (And why not… he’s a self-proclaimed expert at everything else.)
In any case, such a contention is wholly unsupported by RCW 29.A.08.810, which clearly states:
Registration of a person as a voter is presumptive evidence of his or her right to vote at any primary or election, general or special.
And Judge Bridges further enunciated this basic principle — that the burden of proof falls on the challengers — when he stated:
Our Supreme Court has observed that election officers are presumed to have complied with the duties required of them in an honest and careful manner. That was the Quigley case. And also in Quigley the Court noted that the returns of any election official are entitled to the presumption of regularity….
Perhaps his attorneys and party officials misled Rossi into believing he actually stood a chance of prevailing in court, but whatever his personal motivation, his surrogates have clearly been more focused on the public relations battle than the legal one.
Anybody who has ever worked on the giving or receiving end of a well-planned PR campaign can see that the steady stream of GOP allegations and photo ops are part of an ambitious strategy to consistently hit a weekly news cycle. Sometimes they are fortunate to have real news fill the gap — like the 94 uncounted absentee ballots — but most of the media flaps have been entirely manufactured. Slade Gorton making an ass out of himself demanding a criminal investigation… accusations that Cheryl Scott can’t be trusted because she’s (gasp) contributed to Democrats in a heavily Democratic state… mock outrage over provisional ballot envelopes Republican observers quietly watched being opened five months ago… these have all been neatly penciled in on a media calendar pinned to the cubicle wall of some Rossi PR consultant.
I have no doubt that early on, blinded by an irrational fear and hatred of “the other,” some GOP operatives actually believed that if they looked hard enough, they would surely find conclusive evidence of a stolen election. But that hope has long since faded for all but the most faithful rank and file. What started as specific charges of Democratic corruption and disenfranchised military voters has gradually morphed into the vague and inchoate message that the election was a “total mess.”
The Republican propaganda machine attempts to paint this Jackson Pollock like image of an election gone awry, by splattering allegations here, or revealing them in dribs and drabs there. But to have a complete and accurate picture of this election, it must be remembered that no matter how many errors are discovered, on however many different occasions — and no matter how torturously long and twisted is the public narrative revealing these errors — they all occurred during the same 15-day period, under the intense scrutiny of the media, and observers from both parties.
It may fuel the Republican PR campaign to focus on when the errors were discovered or revealed to the public. But the only questions that really matter are: How many errors occurred? Did they change the outcome of the election? How did they happen? And how can we prevent them in the future?
Everything else is bullshit.
Didn’t Jackson Pollack do work that was things like perfectly straight vertical lines and shadows? Or is that someone else I’m thinking of?
No, here’s an example: She-Wolf
Goldy, can’t you clearly see that the arrow in this painting points directly to Ron Sims?
TJ @1,
You’re thinking of somebody else. While it’s unfair to categorize an artist, I’d say Pollock is best known for his “drip and splash” period.
Jon @2,
That’s what art and this election have in common… the viewer gets to read into it whatever they want.
Hey, I like Jackson Pollack art! It is rather beautiful. If you want to draw (no pun intended) an analogy to grotesque art, try Salvidor Dali.
I like all these Repug alarms that “the sky is falling.” The false calls can’t help their credibility or their case. Keep at it, boys!
What I want to know, though, is whether the Repugs checked for “opened & resealed” provisional ballots in all the other counties as well.
They probably didn’t check in other counties because they probably are trying to win for Rossi.
Seriously people,
Trying to defend that this election has been anything but an absolute clusterfuck is a joke.
Goldy said: “But the only questions that really matter are: How many errors occurred? Did they change the outcome of the election? How did they happen? And how can we prevent them in the future?”
I certainly cannot argue with you over that! I really don’t know what the purpose, at this point, is of all the spin. This is going to be decided (eventually) by the State Supreme Court, so this spin won’t help the R’s there, unless they are so confident of the case that this is all part of the redo election campaign they are hoping to get.
accusations that Cheryl Scott can’t be trusted because she’s (gasp) contributed to Democrats in a heavily Democratic state
Unbelieveable. Of couse the critics don’t recognize the big names on the panel with who are very well respected such as head of corporations, and presidents of universities. They wouldn’t have been happy unless the panel consisted of Carlson and reps from EFF and the BIAW.
Hmmmmmm. Instead of an election contest, why not Thunderdome??
prr @ 7
do you have any evidence that would show it was an absolute clusterfuck? I’d love to see it. So far there hasn’t been any.
TJ @ 11
How many employees and at what level need to be reprimanded, suspended, fired and/or indicted in order for you to call KingCo’s Elections Office anything better than a monkey f***ing a football?
Jon @9,
I think the point of the GOP PR campaign is to extract as much political gain out of the election contest as possible, both to undermine the ability of Gregoire and the Democrats to effectively govern during this session, and to give the R’s an issue to run on in upcoming elections…. you know, a “the Dems stole the last election so you owe us this one” kind of strategy.
Me @ 12
Clarification. I’m asking what your limits are before you admit it is monkey/football time. (e.g. up to 3 employees suspended and a supervisor fired still means it is a “model election” or whatever)
Goldy @ 13
If you read the MSM papers, it seems as though the Dems have enough trouble legislating as it is.
Goldy,
Your analysis gave me chills. Are you implying that the R’s are taking a page out of the playbook of the Florida D’s?? Didn’t the Florida D’s try to make the messy 2000 election a reason for payback against Jeb Bush? Did that succeed or fail?
Maybe I just misunderstood you.
No wonder Dino Rossi�s attorneys filed a brief yesterday in Chelan County, in which they make the absurd contention that when it comes to their suspect list of alleged felons, the burden should fall on the Democrats to prove that they are not illegal voters
That’s hilarious attempt at burden shifting. Kind of like “prove you did not cheat.”
Rossi is arging that to actually look at the contested ballots and voters themselves would be a huge mess and the Democrats shouldn’t cause this to happen.
Oh well. Despite the wacky arguments, the burden to overturn the elections rests entirely with Rossi.
It looks like the GOP are anticipating losing and geting ready to mount an extra vigorous “outraged” Delay type press conference and attack the Washington judges who rule against them.
TJ @ 11
I’m not going round and round with you on this again.
I am well aware that you think this has been the fairest, most even keeled, election and defintely one for the record books.
Unfortunately, the majority of Washingtonians do not.
I certainly am amongst those ranks.
Mark @ 14,
Employees being fired or suspended is an idiotic measure.
The most objective measure is the proportion of improperly handled ballots/votes. Of course King County is at a disadvantage here compared to other counties because it is in the limelight and under the microscope. Even with this disadvantage, it doesn’t look like King County is particularly a mess. It looks like typical election errors occuring at a very low rate.
Show the numbers, declaring this election “special” in terms of errors.
Where are the facts to back the claims, “clusterfuck”.
We need to have perspective here, showing this race was somehow “remarkable”, in relation to the average election, to declare something “extraordinary”.
Can you do this?
And I’m not talking about a 4 paragraph rant, on “11 times”, and “hundreds of felons”, etc., and all the usual spin.
I’m talking about a side by side comparison, clearly defining this “huge disparity”.
C’mon, this is what we all want to see.
< <<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>.
comment by prr
Nope, the only one saying this, is you.
Thats your problem you cant see anything but the extremes.
I’m awaiting the comparisons…..
Got an eta?
DJ @ 19
Let’s get something straight, the BS of allowable mistakes went out the window when the Governor-elect was overturned on a hand recount, and then protected by a democratic held legislature.
There are so many conflicts of interest in the way that Chris Gregoire was elected that one would be hard pressed to even begin to start.
This is not an issue of her winning fair and square and the republican being angry, this is about this election being overturned by a very thin margin and then having mistake, after mistak after mistake appear.
At what point do politicians themselves begin to feel foolsih about their lies? Abvioulsy, this point line in the sand has been crossed.
I am well aware that you think this has been the fairest, most even keeled, election and defintely one for the record books.
Unfortunately, the majority of Washingtonians do not.
I certainly am amongst those ranks.
Comment by prr
Sorry, this was supposed to be above you name in post #20
Diggindude @ 20
Your just flat out in denial
Diggindude…
tell you what, refute all the problems reported in the press, by the elections office, king county council, etc….
prr@19
Ok, now this is bullshit, the hand count is designed for exactly this situation
Only in the heads of those trying to discredit the election
all mistakes, happened while your team was in the room also.
WTF were they doing at the time?
Republicans never feel foolish about their lies, or they wouldn’t be able to repeat them to the camera,( see vance, rossi, and lane), when they do start to feel foolish about lies, they cease to be a “good” politician.
–Comment by prr
Prr, tell us what day, you stopped beating you wife?
something is wrong with my posts
all im getting is the quotes
Just keep your eye on the court date, 5/23.
Regardless of how it comes out, the Illuminati will be calling the shots.
Do I have anything serious to say about this topic? No I do not. Let the games continue.
Diggindude @ 27…
Nothing is wrong with your posts. I would say it is divine inervention. Even God won’t allow you to post your bullshit any longer.
prr@19
,,Let’s get something straight, the BS of allowable mistakes went out the window when the Governor-elect was overturned on a hand recount, and then protected by a democratic held legislature.,,
the hand count worked exactly like it was supposed to.
,,There are so many conflicts of interest in the way that Chris Gregoire was elected that one would be hard pressed to even begin to start.,,,
Only in the heads of those trying to overturn a legal election.
,,,This is not an issue of her winning fair and square and the republican being angry, this is about this election being overturned by a very thin margin and then having mistake, after mistak after mistake appear.,,,,
All mistakes, occurred, while your team was in the room.
WTF were they doing at the time?
,,,At what point do politicians themselves begin to feel foolsih about their lies? Abvioulsy, this point line in the sand has been crossed.,,,,,,Politicians never feel foolish about lies, or they would cease to be “good” politicians.(see rossi, vance, lane)
prr @ 21
“Let’s get something straight, the BS of allowable mistakes went out the window when the Governor-elect was overturned on a hand recount”
What are you babbling about? The hand recount is permitted by law. Procedurally (i.e. at the state level), this election went exactly as required and permitted. I’m sorry that you don’t like the laws (and outcome), but they’ll favor the Repugs one fine election, too.
“and then protected by a democratic held legislature.”
Again, this went “by the book.” Deal with it!
“This is not an issue of her winning fair and square and the republican being angry, this is about this election being overturned by a very thin margin and then having mistake, after mistak after mistake appear.”
Nope. It really is about Repugs being angry. The election was “overturned” as prescribed by law. More precisely, the law allowed for ANYONE to pay for a third (hand) recount as a way to shake out as many errors as possible. Rossi only appeared to win because the State did expediant (but not quite as accurate) machine counts.
“At what point do politicians themselves begin to feel foolsih about their lies?”
Oh. . . so now politicians are lying. Well, as the Blues song goes: “Yep, their lips were moving!”. Seriously, though, if you “know” they are lying, then the Repug lawyers for Rossi must know they are lying, which means they have some damn fine evidence. Your case will be a “slam dunk”
George Tennant told me so.
prr@26
,,,tell you what, refute all the problems reported in the press, by the elections office, king county council, etc….,,,
Tell me when you stopped beating your wife.
Goldy:“…you know, a “the Dems stole the last election so you owe us this one” kind of strategy.”
Well, if that’s the case, then they need to stop smoking whatever they are smoking, because it sure didn’t work for Dems in Florida or nationally regarding the 2000 election.
prr@23
I am not in denial, im not! im not! im not!
I just dont believe anything anyone tells me!!
Oh wait a minute, that sounds like you!!
boring!
Nothing is wrong with your posts. I would say it is divine inervention. Even God won’t allow you to post your bullshit any longer.
Comment by prr
God has no effect on me, I tossed that excess baggage many moons ago.
Im gonna use your house, to raise chickens after the rapture.
diggindude….
This just out.
King County elections just found more ballotts
boring!
Comment by Liking it
so was your thunderdome bullshit, but who cares?
foad.
The Republican propaganda machine attempts to paint this Jackson Pollock like image of an election gone awry, by splattering allegations here, or revealing them in dribs and drabs there.
Very nicely put worded. Wish I came up with that.
TJ @ 1
Perhaps you’re thinking of later Mondrians.
Im gonna use your house, to raise chickens after the rapture.
Comment by Diggindude
On closer inspection, you’re not going anywhere.
This just out.
King County elections just found more ballotts
Comment by prr
Maybe rossi supporters are planting them.
At least Thunderdome would settle it once and for all. Besides, a little real bloodshed would be exciting. What kind of odds would you give Gregoire? Remember she would have the union thugs helping.
To my little pinheaded LEFTIST moronic fools–
I spoke today with other County Auditors and Election Officials about these opened rejected provisional ballot envelopes.
A couple of them hadn’t heard about the latest snafu.
If ask them about there procedures.
All rejected provisional are UNOPENED and SEALED currently in the 30-month retention box.
There is absolutely NO reason for these envelopes to be opened. NONE!
They should have been verified BEFORE being opened. PERIOD!
Occassionally every few elections a provisional ballot envelope will be torn. The procedures are for election staffers to tape that envelope and have TWO Election staff initial it. Under no circumstances should the ballot EVER be removed from the envelope until or the envelope intentionally opened until it has been accepted.
KingCo’s statement that nothing in the law prohibits what they have done may be technically correct but what do there policy’s and procedures say AND why in the world would they have done it???
The Rossi camp, including its legal team, appears incapable of grasping basic legal concepts like burden of proof. In civil litigation, the burden of proof always lies with the plaintiff. In this case, that means Rossi. Other basic concepts like causation and evidentiary relevance also seem to induce drooling, glazed eyes, and finger-counting on Rossi’s part. Flinging shit, hurling invective, and exalting innuendo do not usually mark a successful legal strategy. Judges rarely award points to the loudest screamer. That’s why judges, and not legislatures, are so uniquely qualified to resolve little spats like this election contest.
L&I@43
,,At least Thunderdome would settle it once and for all. Besides, a little real bloodshed would be exciting. What kind of odds would you give Gregoire? Remember she would have the union thugs helping.
Comment by Liking it,,
I’d help her.
Love to see rossi get punked, like he should have in prison with his crime partner.
…..BALLOTS FOUND…..
12 DIFFERENT TIMES
12 DIFFERENT PLACES
Looks more like a Denny Dent to me. Dent specializes in performance art where he flings paint at a large canvass from a distance. At first the paint appears to be randomly flung at the canvass, but as the painting progresses, a clear picture begins to emerge from the mess.
The picture is that the election was flawed beyond a determinable result, and it was only certified because certification has always been a rubber stamp process. The difference between this past election Governor’s race and other races and elections is that this time, the number of votes received by the two major candidates was so close to a tie, that accurate record keeping for certification actually mattered, but such record keeping was not completed.
A simple litmus test is to ask yourself why King County elections can’t simply produce a document that correlates with all of the other tabulation documents such as poll books, batch slips, etc. and shows how many absentee ballots were issued, received back, counted or rejected, etc.
,,KingCo’s statement that nothing in the law prohibits what they have done may be technically correct but what do there policy’s and procedures say AND why in the world would they have done it???
Comment by Mr. Cynical,,
She said the process “was highly scrutinized by party observers during this time, and it is absolutely ridiculous that they waited to politicize this process five months after the election. There were no requests by the dozens of party observers to change procedures during the time these ballots were handled.”
For air play, nothing more.
They need to keep the pot stirred, especially now, that so many have moved on, and lost interest in rossi.
What weapons would be allowed?? Razor sharp ballots? King County has more of them and since Gregoire won King County she should be allowed to use them.
1000 paper cuts would create the Jackson Pollack look Goldy refered to.
Goldy-
“accusations that Cheryl Scott can’t be trusted because she’s (gasp) contributed to Democrats in a heavily Democratic state”
Come on tell the truth, Sims said she was non-partisan, he lied that’s why Repubs are pissed.
Did you put your site on repeat? because I’d swear I’ve heard all this pathetic attempts to counter before.
dd @ 49
“For air play, nothing more.” yes it was a model election. why then are Dem KC Councilpersons asking for an investigation?
ballots found 12 different times dude, on top of the 348 provisionals, more votes than voters, dead people voting, felons voting, military ballots not mailed in time. KC never has provided proof of mailing date of millitary ballots. if they have prove it. show me the link to the post office reciept.
Why did wsrc drop the charge?
All they’re doing now, is hurting their reputation.
If they really had anything, they wouldn’t be “trying” the case in the media every week.
Rossi, looks needy.
Got a note from a Republican observer today…
If you click my name, you’ll get to read the headline post on my blog: Marummy Speaks!!
WE LOVE MARUMMY, DON’T WE?!?!?
Is it standard procedure to mail out envelopes without ballots?
Ah, the apparatchik is spinning well.
Erick@17,
If you read the motion, you would have realized that what is said is that the Republicans have proven those people are on public record as felons. It is not up to the Republicans to prove that they are NOT felons when the public record shows they are. It goes to the issue of proving a negative. For example, can you prove that Goldy has never taken a drink?
****Republicans asked Bridges to prevent Democrats from bringing new evidence in the case concerning legitimate, non-counted ballots****
http://wenworld.com/sub/story......90-106-849
VRWC @ 57:
But if you have the burden of proof, as the R’s do, you have to present evidence to prove your case. At the very least, they will have to explain to the Court what their procedure was and establish it is reliable. However, many of the voters listed were apparently juveniles who did not lose their voting rights, for instance. If the D’s can show the list of allegedly illegal voters has significant inaccuracies, any presumption the R’s might like the court to make will be out the window, because their methodology is flawed.
Wayne@59,
In fact, that is what they did. Please go read the motion they filed.
VRWC@57
If you read the motion, you would have realized that what is said is that the Republicans have proven those people are on public record as felons. It is not up to the Republicans to prove that they are NOT felons when the public record shows they are. It goes to the issue of proving a negative. For example, can you prove that Goldy has never taken a drink?
Comment by VRWC
Where did they prove the list is genuine?
You mean “they Feel” it is genuine.
Them “saying” its proven to be genuine, doesn’t mean squat in the courtroom.
Its heresay.
The judge will decide if the list is in fact “genuine” or not, and admit it for evidence, or he wont.
Then, If it does so happen to be a genuine list, the republicans will have to show how many votes were in fact given to each candidate.
There is no way, they are going to let heresay, decide the outcome of throwing out an election.
Proportional analysis is “HERESAY”.
Dude@58,
Your link doesn’t work. Is that what liberals pass on as a source these days?
Dude@61,
Here is the link:
http://soundpolitics.com/Motio.....050413.pdf
It actually works. Go to section II – Statement of Facts.
My link works for subscribers.
Dude – The BIAW has a check for you. LOL.
dude@64,
Well gee. Now isn’t that convenient. Yeah, I got a link too that shows how the Democrats kill little children and eat them for breakfast. Here is the link, but you have to be a subscriber.
http://www.democratseatchildren.org/tastykids
I read the motion. They ask the court to accept that if they show a voter is a felon and court records do not show restoration of voting rights, the court should presume the vote was illegal unless the county or D’s prove otherwise. But their list apparently includes juveniles who never lost their voting rights. It is also likely that the restoration of rights doesn’t make it into the court file frequently. If the D’s show 30 or 40 errors in the list, and certainly if they show 100 or more, there is no way the court will accept the list without proof from Rossi of each illegal vote.
If you read the motion, it “alleges”.
Not proof.
Like I said, bridges will decide if it proves anything.
Also, this still leaves the burden, of applying the ratio, to the candidates.
Its not going to fly on proportional heresay.
So, you’re right back where you are now.
Either repubs. identify exactly who received illegal votes, or its gonna get tossed.
Attemting to be smug, while admitting how little you understand, isn’t impressing me much at this point, but we’ll see where it goes.
Remember, TJ, prr got hit on the head by a man whole cover thrown off of the space needle. Still a little bit deranged and out of touch with reality.
Who did the union send down there to thw wto rally, the incredible hulk?
Dude – Perhaps this will help.
PRIMA-FACIE, EVIDENCE, CASE – Latin for “at first view.”
Evidence that is sufficient to raise a presumption of fact or to establish the fact in question unless rebutted.
A prima-facie case is a lawsuit that alleges facts adequate to prove the underlying conduct supporting the cause of action and thereby prevail. Below’s an example dealing with employment discrimination claims.
A plaintiff can establish a prima facie case of race discrimination under Title VII by establishing that (1) he or she belongs to a racial minority; (2) he or she applied and was qualified for a job for which the employer was seeking applicants; (3) he or she was rejected for the position despite his or her qualifications; and (4) the position remained open after his or her rejection and the employer continued to seek applications from other people with similar qualifications to the plaintiff. McDonnell Douglas v. Green, 411 U.S. 792, 802 (1973). In Texas Dept. of Community Affairs v. Burdine, 450 U.S. 248, 253 (1981), the Supreme Court stated that”[t]he burden of establishing a prima facie case of disparate treatment is not onerous.”
After the plaintiff has established a prima facie case, the burden of production shifts to the employer to articulate a legitimate, non-discriminatory reason for the plaintiff’s rejection. Id. If the employer sustains the burden, the plaintiff then has the opportunity to present evidence showing that the employer’s stated reason for the rejection was merely pretextual. Id.; see also McDonnell Douglas, 411 U.S. at 807; Lindahl, 930 F.2d at 1437 (“The defendant’s articulation of a legitimate nondiscriminatory reason serves . . . to shift the burden back to the plaintiff to raise a genuine factual question as to whether the proffered reason is pretextual.”) (quoting Lowe, 775 F.2d at 1008).
oops, now you went and did it, you woke up the theocon @47 and she is finally learning how to count.
I dont need you to google for me thanks.
I already said what I had to say about it above.
Repubs. can allege prima facie all they want, it is still up to the judge to decide, not them. They have shown without question to this point, that when given the opportunity, they will lie.
Jeff B @ 48 The picture is that the election was flawed beyond a determinable result Like they say, it depends on what you are looking for. You see flaws, I see theocon repubs with puke on their faces after their legal challenge is dismissed
Wayne@67,
You are just speculating. And where did you hear that juveniles were on that list? I think the motion clearly states that the agencies whose responsibility it is to keep those records are the ones who have to prove that they are eligible to vote. The list was based upon the information from those very agencies who are charged under Washington State Law to maintain the records.
The proof that they are not eligible to vote was by prima facie evidence.
Obviously we can go back and forth on this. I think the motion is sound and will be granted.
dude@73,
The only liars I have seen so far are the Democrats. Ron Sims claimed 99.98% accuracy. BZZZZT LIE! It was 99.8%
vrwc@76
The only liars I have seen so far are the Democrats. Ron Sims claimed 99.98% accuracy. BZZZZT LIE! It was 99.8%
Comment by VRWC
Ive heard nothing but lies from the red side.
Fraud, conspiracy, hiding ballots, etc.
No matter what end of the political spectrum one gravitates to — for heavens sake don’t believe everything you hear or read from a single source. There are posts on this blog that are not based on truth in media.
As for this blog: the vulgarity can be a bit much, but not so much that I can’t find some value in the posts.
As a member of no party, I view the last election as eqally flawed as any other — nothings perfect. The current WA election reforms in the works for several years are overdue.
Just hope that the paper trail can be verified by the voter, before the voter leaves the booth.
dude@77,
You just speak in generalities. Please give me a specific example.
Wayne,
That logic works both ways. If the Republicans prove that the number of illegal votes surpasses the margin of victory in a significant way, then the entire accuracy of the election can be thrown out.
Dude-
“This has been a model election” – Gregoire.
Bzzzzt. Lie. It has been anything but a model election.
“Any bank would be proud of this accuracy.” – Ron Sims
Bzzzt. Lie. Name one bank that would be proud of this. Show me where the official of the bank says 99.8% is “good enough”.
vrwc
gregoire’s paid cronies, hid votes, and stuffed ballots, military ballots were deliberately sent out late,
canvassers took names from obits. for ballots, etc.
vrwc
If by model, you mean this:
6 entries found for model.
To select an entry, click on it.
model[1,noun]model[2,verb]model[3,adjective]animal modelrole modelWatson-Crick model
Main Entry: 3model
Function: adjective
1 : serving as or capable of serving as a pattern
2 : being a usually miniature representation of something
Then, yes, it was like any other, basically.
Banks have error rates of .2%.
This election had less than that, so the bank reference is also, not a lie.
Jon @ 8
“I really don’t know what the purpose, at this point, is of all the spin.”
Money. Whipping the party faithful to a frenzy brings in donations.
* BIAWsux2 is a wholly owned subsidiary of Dubyasux NLSP
Mark @ 14
It doesn’t matter how many employees get fired or how many errors there were UNLESS the errors changed the outcome of the election. That’s the ONLY thing that counts.
prr @ 18
OK, have it your way — you lost a clusterfuck.
Get over it.
* BIAWsux2 is a wholly owned subsidiary of Dubyasx NLSP
prr @ 24
Until you can PROVE how many more illegal votes Gregoire got than Rossi got, you’re just blowing hot air.
* BIAWsux2 is a wholly owned subsidiary of Dubyasux NLSP
Cynical @ 44
“nothing in the law prohibits what they have done may be technically correct”
Bingo! And the reasons why they did it have already been explained, but you apparently wilfully chose to not pay attention to the explanation.
* BIAWsux2 s a wholly owned subsidiary of Dubyasux NLSP
Maybe, just maybe, since this election WAS so close, Washingtonians have figured out who the REAL deviants are. LIBERALS. Gregoire the eco-wench didn’t make it happen for you. The deviant liberals in the majority have exposed themselves for who they really are. Take a look at the laundry list of bills in the first session, all lacking in morals and full of lies. Protect the sexual preditors, in fact make them teachers, allow them to surf porn in the schools. Teach the kindergartners how to use condoms. raise taxes even thought the state is bringing in 1 billion+ more in revenue. More restrictions, take away property rights, let the child abusers go free, arrest a woman because her dog is loose. Save the whales and kill babies. It’s all normal for you liberals isn’t it?
DD @ 58
The GOP attorneys argue the Supreme Court has already ruled that it’s too late to count valid, uncounted ballots. This is correct, but it’s irrelevant. They’re confusing the election contest lawsuit with a recount. The trial is not a recount. It is a determination of whether errors changed the result of the election. To make this determination, the court must consider all the errors of which there is evidence. Election workers’ failure to count the valid ballots was an error. Therefore, these ballots must be taken into consideration in determining whether the cumulative errors tipped the balance.
VRWC @ 57
Your lack of legal knowledge is painfully evident. The GOP attorneys have the initial burden of proving the people on the list were ineligible felons, and merely alleging a fact does not prove the fact. The GOP felon list is an allegation, not proof. They will have to present evidence that each name on the list is in fact an ineligible voter. This includes such things as conviction records, establishing the identify of the voter as the person who was convicted, etc. The GOP must make a prima facie showing of invalid votes before the Democrats have any burden of proof at all, in which case the Democrats have the burden of rebuttal.
VRWC @ 66
You’re confused. It’s the Republicans who bomb villages and kill little children.
VRWC @ 71
“A prima-facie case is a lawsuit that alleges facts adequate to prove the underlying conduct supporting the cause of action and thereby prevail.”
This statement is incorrect. A “prima facie case” is not a lawsuit. Merely alleging facts which, if proved, would support the claim does not constitute a prima facie case. Establishing a prima facie case requires evidence of a type and quality which, if not rebutted, would lead the trier of fact to conclude the facts are true.
DumDigger, jpdummy, Dummydon, and GoldDummy @all –
I can’t believe that you are defending this election.
This election is something that even the kremlin would be ashamed of.
Defend this election as a “model for the world” and you have proven yourselves to be nothing but indoctrinated political hacks.
For once, get some gonads, at least feign ethical conduct, and grow a conscience.
You have chosen the dark side. Reach for the light.
VRWC @ 75
“And where did you hear that juveniles were on that list?”
This is not speculation, although I guess you could say we “heard” this — from the news media. The Democrats obtained the GOP list from the Republican attorneys through discovery, and according to the Democratic attorneys’ statements to the news media, upon checking the list the Democratic attorneys found numerous juveniles who did not lose their voting rights. At this point, there are no proved facts, as the judge has not heard any evidence or made any factual findings yet. However, just as the GOP list is based on a review of records, the Democratic rebuttal that there are eligible voters on the list likewise is based on a review of records. The Democrats’ evidence calls into question the credibility of the Republicans’ evidence.
VRWC @ 76
Ron Sims did use the 99.98% figure but then corrected himself to 99.8%. For the errors to exceed .2%, there would have to be 2,599 errors in King County. (899,199 x .002) This is far more than the number of errors alleged by the GOP, and of course nothing has been proven yet. In view of the questions raised about the accuracy of the GOP felon list, it is quite possible the actual King County errors are only a few hundred or perhaps even a few dozen. There is no possibility at all that the GOP will be able to show that KC’s errors exceeded the .2% figure of 2,599.
VRWC @ 80
“If the Republicans prove that the number of illegal votes surpasses the margin of victory in a significant way, then the entire accuracy of the election can be thrown out.”
Not true. The law requires the judge to subtract illegal votes from both candidates’ totals, and Gregoire has to have received more illegal votes than Rossi in a number greater than her margin of victory. Simply showing there were more than 129 illegal votes isn’t sufficient. Let’s say there were 500 illegal votes, and Gregoire got 300 and Rossi got 200, the net difference of 100 is less than Gregoire’s 129-vote margin of victory and she still wins the election.
vrwc @ 82
“gregoire’s paid cronies, hid votes, and stuffed ballots”
Prove it.
“military ballots were deliberately sent out late”
They not only weren’t deliberately sent out late, they weren’t sent out late. All of King County’s military ballots — every single one — were mailed on or before October 8, the deadline specified by federal law.
dubyasux@89
Exactly. The valid votes will add to the totals of both parties, if counted, but If they do, still leaves any illegal votes, as an unknown.
I can’t see bridges, allowing this proportional assessment, when it amounts to no more than hearsay.
I’m having a problem with this error witch hunt in general.
What happens if the post office loses a bag of mail, and it turns up 18 months after the election?
Does the election get thrown out? Or do we destroy the ballots, because the election is completed, and we’ve already settled, applying these newfound ballots to the margin of error?
zap @ 93
they are void of morals, thats why.
Don, you liberal geniuses with your taste for “fact-driven debate” can’t even achieve the level of argument of the average juvenile delinquent. you’re still stuck at the intellectual level of 2-year-olds in high chairs throwing food.
Mommy….MOM-MEE!!!! I wet myself, Again.
zap @ 93
The relevant question is not whether this was a “model” election but whether the result was changed by fraud and/or errors. The burden of proof is on the party contesting the election, i.e. the GOP. I’m sure you know this, as it has been stated on HA many times. Everything else is blowing smoke. Criticizing Dean Logan, complaining about the Democratic legislature certifying the election over GOP objections, the number of times more ballots were found — none of that matters in court.
digger, you got your spreadsheets all layed out do ya? LOL
zapporo@93
**This election is something that even the kremlin would be ashamed of.
Defend this election as a “model for the world” and you have proven yourselves to be nothing but indoctrinated political hacks.**
Proof please.
char@101
,,digger, you got your spreadsheets all layed out do ya? LOL
Comment by chardonnay,,
Im not falling for any sexual advances.
diggindude @ 666
you are still stuck in your high chair throwing food.
Diggindude @ 98
As additional clarification, any counting of votes (illegal or legal) by the court will not change the official totals as certified by the legislature. The court does not have power to revise the official vote count. Its authority is limited to either letting the election stand or throwing it out. Either way, the official totals will remain unchanged, but if it’s thrown out the official totals won’t count because it’s an invalid election.
The problem with proportional analysis is not that it’s hearsay (it’s not) but that it’s speculating what the facts are, instead of proving the facts with evidence. “Hearsay” is an out-of-court statement by a third person used to prove the truth of the matter asserted. To illustrate, let’s suppose you testify that right after the car accident a neighborhood kid named Jimmy told you what he saw happen. If the purpose of your testimony is to establish that you talked to Jimmy about the accident, it’s not hearsay. However, if its purpose is to prove what Jimmy saw, it’s hearsay.
DD @ 103
“Desperate housewives” have nothing on chards. She’s beyond desperate.
Dude@82,
And name me one Republican offical that said that any of those things and provide me a source.
Dude,
mod·el (mdl)
n.
adj.
1. Being, serving as, or used as a model.
2. Worthy of imitation: a model child.
If you seriously think that an election in which dead people, felons and illegal aliens voted, 1800 mor eballots than voters were counted, over 100 ballots were NEVER counted is a MODEL election, then you have rocks in your head. I guess it is a model if Democrats win. If Repuplicans win, then it is cheating huh?
Sux@90,
You obviously did not read the motion counselor. They did state that they in fact did those things. Please read SECTION II FACTS.
Sux@94,
They ALLEGED there were juveniles. I have seen no proof what-so-ever. You should know the difference between proof and allegation counselor.
It is appalling that you liberal can defend an election in which dead people, illegals and felons voted. Even if you dispute the number of those categories, it is agreed upon by all that at least some of each category voted. And it is alo a known fact that over 100 ballots were not counted. Didn’t we hear that the Democrats wanted every vote counted??
Liars. And you wonder why this country is so divided. You defend this kind of election fraud and try to pretend the crap smeels like channel #5.
Sux,
Just a side question. If you are such a hot attorney, why aren’t you leading the case for the Democrats??
Vacuous
Cretin
Regurgitating
Waste,
@108
We dont know any of these things for sure yet.
@109
The court decides what is evidence.
@110
The repubs admit juveniles are on the list.
@111
Again, we dont know any of these things yet.
Also, I already posted above, it is repubs. that dont want the new votes counted not dems.
Same as since the beginning, repubs. trying to stop the counting of ballots.
@112
He seems to be doing it just fine for the dems. on this blog.
vcrw@107
And name me one Republican offical that said that any of those things and provide me a source.
Comment by VCRW
Name one closely involved here, that didn’t.
I have no doubt that felons (without voting rights), dead people, non-citizens, and other illegal voters have voted not only in this election, but every other election in the last I don’t know how many years. I don’t think this was a model election, but I don’t think it was significantly worse than any other. I do know the recounts were extremely closely supervised by both parties. I am sure all of these problems, or others, have occurred before, but nobody noticed because the elections weren’t so close.
What I object to is Vance and his fellow chicken littles puffing up what I believe to be typical human errors into some great crime against the people, especially when there is no proof it was intentional or made a difference.
Gregoire played by the rules, she won the hand recount and that is that. It wasn’t a perfect election, none of them are. But until the GOP can prove something other than Chris Vance is a whiny baby (of course so is Berendt – I can’t stand either of those guys!) Rossi is going to be out of luck.
VCRW @ 111
It is appalling that you liberal can defend an election in which dead people, illegals and felons voted…. it is agreed upon by all that at least some of each category voted. And it is alo a known fact that over 100 ballots were not counted.
I am writing this v e r y s l o w l y to help you understand. Every election with 2.8 million or more votes ever held has had invalid votes, lost ballots, miscounted ballots, and coffee stains on a few of the envelopes. There is absolutely nothing to suggest this election was out of the ordinary with repect to errors. We had the typical low error rate that has been found in every election so scrutenized.
The only thing out of the ordinary was the extreme closeness of the election.
The law doesn’t make the outcome contingent on there being no errors (or else no election would be upheld). The law does not say the election margin must exceed the measurable error. The law only allows for a limited number of recounts, and allows for election challenges with a very high burden of proof: demonstration that any errors ACTUALLY changed the outcome.
You can hold your breath, cross your fingers, squeeze your balls, and stomp up and down all you want, but it ain’t gonna make this anything more than a close election with a typically low error rate.
Dude,
You are good at making baseless allegations and citing no cources whatsoever. You are definitely a liberal.
@112 Yeah I a sure that this blog will determine the outcome of the trial. All the Monday morning quarterback here ought to really influence the outcome.
dj@117,
You assertion that the error rate is totally acceptable is assinine. If the margin of victory was indeed 10 times what it was, then it would not be a problem. But when the “error rate” and fraud rate exceeds the margin of victory then it is in fact a big deal.
You can jump up and down, claim that everything is fine, hold your breath if you want. But that will not change the fact that the majority of Washington voters believe the election was not conducted on the up and up. You are jkust trying to spin it for the apparatchik like and old soviet style propagandist.
Dead people voting is fraud. It is not a “mistake” or and “error” or an “oops”. It is a crime that is punishable under Washington State Law.
No amount of liberal jabber will alter that fact.
vcrw,
Take a poll here, of how many people have heard rumors that dems stole votes, took names from obits., and gregoire, brendt, logan, and sims, were all involved in some shennanigans.
Everyone has heard the accusations.
The one making shit up, is you.
You continue to spew the rhetoric, like its fact.
What you’re doing, amounts to “guilty until proven innocent”,
and is one of the most proficient tools, of the republican party today.
diggindude,
The more I listen to your ramblings, the more I am convinced that you are an absolue jackass.
diggindude,
**The more I listen to your ramblings, the more I am convinced that you are an absolue jackass.
Comment by prr**
Funny, I had you pegged right from the git-go.
Really,
why don’t you tell me all about myself then?
What do i do for a living? Home life? Am I involved in Charity? A church? etc…..
prr – Let ’em ramble and then go back and read the archived teeth-gnashing HA posts and witness exploding liberal heads when Bush won again and Rossi legitimately won.
It’s great entertainment.
Really,
why don’t you tell me all about myself then?
What do i do for a living? Home life? Am I involved in Charity? A church? etc…..
Comment by prr
What does any of that have to do with you being a jackass?
I see your animal attraction, has piqued the interest of another jackass.
and there we go…
I think you just clarified your depth.
VCRW @ 119
You assertion that the error rate is totally acceptable is assinine.
I did not say it was “acceptable”. I said it was typical (i.e. ordinary). We both agree that it should be minimized. I suspect we would both agree that there will always be error in an election of 2.8M vote magnitude.
But when the “error rate” and fraud rate exceeds the margin of victory then it is in fact a big deal.
For “error rate”: Emotionally yes, legally, no. For “fraud rate”: what is the “fraud rate” from this election. So far, it has not been demonstrated to be other than 0. If fraud can be shown, it is much easier to prove that the actual outcome was changed (of course, any fraud might well be Republican fraud in which case the governors race stands).
VCRW@ 119
Quick clarification. I definitely agree with you that people voting on behalf of the dead should be prosecuted! When I am discussing “fraud”, I mean organized attempts to fradulently change an election outcome, rather than isolated illegal votes. It is impossible to eliminate the latter in an election of this magnitude, although we should try to do so.
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/sticksandstones.html
TC… What is the point of the Sticks and stone link?