Apparently there was some sort of hearing yesterday in Judge Arend’s court regarding a bond related to the TRO. I have made available for download a copy of an amended declaration that was filed as part of the hearing, in which Democrats detail the changes in Rossi-won counties that showed an increase in the number of “ballots cast” from the initial count to the machine recount that benefited Dino Rossi:
Adams 7 Rossi +15 Benton 3 Rossi +1 Clallam 1 No change Clark 9 Rossi +4 Grant 52 Rossi +18 Island 4 Rossi +5 Kittitas 34 Rossi +7 Lewis 3 Rossi +2 Mason 3 Rossi +1 Pierce 9 Rossi +19 Skagit 147 Rossi +18 Spokane 7 Rossi +13 Snohomish 223 Rossi +11
It should be noted that neither party ever asked the courts to disallow these ballots, and in fact it would likely not be possible to outsort most of them after the fact. And some of these new ballots represent significant additions as a percentage of the total county vote; Republicans have offered no explanation for Grant and Kittitas, where the change is so large as to suggest that ballots went unprocessed during the initial certification.
I’m loathe to call a politician a hypocrite, because voters almost seem to demand it from their representatives. But for Dino Rossi to say that these ballots should count and that these errors should be excused, while arguing that King County’s negligence demands that the 723 should be disallowed, is hypocritical even for a politician.
As I’ve said before, errors like these occur in every election, but usually the vote isn’t so close that they make a difference. We need to fix those mistakes we can find — as is the long-established practice — count the votes, and move on.
Don’t forget the 336 ballots that King County also added in the machine recount.
Right on, Goldy. The Seattle Times had a great editorial today that emphasizes these points.
Stefan, as clearly stated, these are a tally of changes from counties that Rossi won, and which benefited Rossi.
But the point is, such “new ballots” have been counted in many of the counties, so there is nothing particularly scandalous or illegal about counting such ballots in King.
SeattleTimes editorial Jenny mentioned – http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....med21.html
Before anyone screams “liberal media”, note that the Times endorsed Rossi.
Goldy – you’re right, but it further supports your point that no one’s contesting the 336 ballots King County added.
I want all of you guys to know that JOSEF, a regular commentator here, is in the habit of posting Rossi’s press releases to his blog. And here’s some of his latest comments:
IF GREGOIRE WINS, WE SAY: SHUT THE STATE DOWN. TOTAL SHUTDOWN UNTIL NEW ELECTION. AS IN SHUT DOWN THE INTERSTATES, SHUT DOWN THE STATE FERRIES, TOTAL STRIKE, YOU KNOW THE REST. . . TOTAL SHUTDOWN. MAKE THE STATE GOV’T UNIONS PAY AND PAY ROYALLY FOR BETRAYING THE WORKING WASHINGTONIAN! MAKE THE KLEPTOCRATS REALIZE WHO’S THE BOSS.
Josef….you’re starting to sound like Stefan. Oh wait…you’ve been repeating his garbage for weeks already. Never mind.
Brent, I’d say this is enough evidence to indict Josef, based on what you’ve been saying about him.
Wow – reading the PDF makes it clear that the 735 ballots in King County do not materially differ from the additional ballots found in the other counties. It is easy for the Rs to argue that ballots that were fed through but not read initially are different than finding new sealed ballots.
However, it looks like in Snohomish, Grant and Kittitas counties new, sealed, never-before-counted (canvassed) ballots were found in a secure location, their validity (signatures, etc.) checked, and then fed through. Seems to bolster the D’s case.
Forgot to add Skagit, Whatcom and Chelan
Now Stefan wants to exclude all the ballots added during the machine recount (see the post titled “Yes, disqualify all of the magical mystery ballots” on his blog).
That’s the modern Republican party for you. Disenfranchise voters (even Republican voters) in the name of electing their guy. Change the rules (see Tom Delay) when they might hurt your guy. To all you Democrats who votes for Rossi – is this the party you want to be associated with?
That is me and there is a reason – I’m going to post what ELSE was on there – the Rossi press release:
——–
GOVERNOR-ELECT
DINO ROSSI
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Dec. 21, 2004
New examples emerge of disenfranchised Rossi voters
If we can’t change the rules for our military and others,
Why should we change the rules for Gregoire’s King Co friends?
Bellevue, WA – Tyler Farmer is a Marine from Snohomish County serving in Iraq. He was wounded in the Battle of Fallujah. He recently won “Marine of the Quarter.”
But there’s one other distinction Tyler would rather not have: He’s a disenfranchised voter who would have voted for Dino Rossi, but he received his ballot too late.
Tyler joins a growing list of 260-plus legal voters who support Dino Rossi but were disenfranchised because their ballots came too late or never arrived at all, or their ballots were rejected.
Tyler’s father, Charles Farmer, says that Tyler has recovered from his wounds and is “back in action,” but is not happy that he wasn’t able to vote. Charles noted that Tyler took extra care to make sure he would receive his ballot, having his father check with the county auditor in June, August and September to make sure his ballot would be sent in time. Yet Election Day came and went and no ballot. It finally arrived on Nov. 3, the day after the election, too late to count.
“My son will not get his vote counted, and he’s risking his life for his country,” says Charles. “He wanted to vote.”
Tyler told his father that two of his Marine buddies, who are registered to vote in Lake Stevens, also did not receive their ballots until Nov. 3 and thus were unable to vote.
Governor-elect Dino Rossi’s office has heard other examples of members of the military who were disenfranchised. Tyler William Smith is a registered King County voter who serves in the Navy; he received his absentee ballot overseas and mailed it in two weeks before the election. When his mother, Clary Smith, called King County, to verify that his ballot was counted, King County had no record of it at all.
Another member of the military, Lesley Steinbach, serves in the Army and is registered in Thurston County. She filled out paperwork to receive her absentee ballot in New Orleans, where she is stationed. But she never received it, nor was a ballot mailed to her parents’ home in Thurston County, as her ballots had been for the past four years.
Steven Sirianni writes that his brother who is serving in Iraq didn’t receive his ballot until after the election. “So much for the integrity of the voting system,” his brother wrote.
Edna Chambers of Tacoma reports that neither her grandson, Robert Chambers, nor the members of his platoon in the Stryker Brigade in Iraq received their ballots or got them on time.
Additionally, Republicans have collected signatures from 262 Rossi voters across Washington whose ballots didn’t count because of signature-matching problems.
“Christine Gregoire’s mantra of ‘Count every vote’ only applies to people who voted for her. She doesn’t want the disenfranchised military ballots to be counted because she knows they trend overwhelmingly Republican,” said Rossi spokeswoman Mary Lane.
“If we can’t change the rules for the members of our Armed Forces and others who were disenfranchised, why should we change the rules for a select group of heavily Democratic voters in King County?”
###
——–
NOW, JENNY – STOP PICKING AND CHOOSING MY COMMENTS! THANK YOU.
IF YOU THINK IT’S OKAY TO DISENFRANCHISE THE TROOPS AND ENFRANCHISE KING COUNTY – FINE. SCREW YOU!
AND SCREW ALL THOSE WHO WANT TO MAKE FURTHER EXCUSES WHILE BABIES DIE AS DSHS PARTIES ON AND FLIPS THE BIRD AD THE STATE AUDITOR, WHILE SKAGIT VALLEY COLLEGE TRUSTEES RETREAT AT RITZY RESTAURANTS WHILE PEOPLE LINE UP AT A FOOD BANK 15 MINUTES WALKING DISTANCE FROM THEIR BOARDROOM, AND GREGOIRE DENIES ACCESS TO PUBLIC RECORDS!
DO YOU WANT A LONGER LIST?
I’M NO EYMANIST – GOVERNMENT DOES A LOT OF GOOD – BUT ENOUGH’S ENOUGH. TIME FOR ACCOUNTABILITY AND TRANSPARENCY – GO DINO!
Comment by jcricket— 12/21/04 @ 12:36 pm
Well, not exactly. We’re saying stop at certification, that being after the machine recount. But good point.
Yes, they certified the original count. Then they certified the results of the machine recount. Soon they will certify the results of this hand recount. All certifications are legal and provided for under the law. The certification after a hand-recount is no less legal than one after a machine recount.
Remember that if the original machine count had been conducted with fewer errors, the initial recount would have automatically proceded by hand.
Okay, guys- you are forgetting one BIG difference.
The crux of the Republican argument in the current case is the reconsideration of previously rejected ballots. that is a very fine, technical point, I know- but it is a differentiating point.
Only King, Chelan, and Thurston have reconsidered, or are proposing to reconsider, previously rejected ballots. Yes, I know the King County ballots were not marked REJECTED- no ballot is ever marked REJECTED. They were included in the lump total of ballots that the King County Canvassing Board rejected when it certified the first count.
In EVERY other case, counties counted ballots that had previously been ACCEPTED, but not counted.
On an earlier post I went through the whole fruit salad mess, but the point I am making is that it IS possible to distinguish between these different classes of ballots- and the King 22 that are the “grapes” as opposed to the apples or oranges. Or the “pears” that are the differences in tallying the same ballots from previous counts- the two faint marks, erasures, etc.
Whether the Supreme Court will differentiate between the types of ballots, or just call them all “fruit”- who knows? But there is a basis for distinguishing…
Comment by Jenny— 12/21/04 @ 12:29 pm
Woops, one more thing. I don’t listen to a guy who makes the same assertions that are proven false – namely Brent.
Comment by Jim King — 12/21/04 @ 12:44 pm
Thanks. Any thoughts on what I posted? Think I’m going over the top or being borderline reasonable – I mean, the mere thought of screwing the troops over while propelling that monster Gregoire ahead makes me nothing short of furious…
And, folks, I have just read the news release Josef has posted- and now we come to the other point (now that the GOP has gone and done its homework, however belatedly)- there are documentable problems with the military vote being disenfranchised.
I have previously pointed out postal and other errors, and regretfully concluded that these errors cannot be fixed without extraordinary effort- and our law does not provide for that extraordinary effort. The same unfortunate reasoning can be applied to the military vote- except it was County Auditors and Elections Departments who were late in sending ballots out.
Now, it tires me to keep hearing “Count Every Vote” from folks who have no intention of seeing that every vote is counted. And just as I think Dino had a great soundbite in “We can’t raise taxes on people without jobs to fund pay raises for people with jobs.”, I think he has a powerful soundbite in “If we can’t change the rules for the members of our Armed Forces and others who were disenfranchised, why should we change the rules for a select group of heavily Democratic voters in King County?”
Not saying right or wrong- just saying powerful…
OH, GESSE – I SAID “ENFRANCHISE KING COUNTY” BUT NOT “ENFRANCHISE QUESTIONABLE KING COUNTY VOTES. I AM SO SORRY :-(.
Respectfully: The quote you cite is actually Mary “Marummy” Lane, Jim.
Picking and choosing? Your comments speak for themselves. I could have included your entire blog post. I didn’t, because people can go to your blog and read it.
Who ever said I was for disenfranchising the votes of the troops? I have family in Iraq, Josef. More than one of my cousins is there. They shouldn’t be there – this irresponsible President made a bad decision and Congress rubber stamped it.
Nor was I defending DSHS, either. I have never said anything about DSHS. See, Josef, you just can’t make these assumptions about people. All of your accusations are falling flat on the ground. I can almost picture you foaming at the mouth, screaming and venting your absurd allegations and not listening to the voice of reason.
I’ve never heard of education administrators going to out to retreats in “ritzy restaurants”. Seattle Schools can’t afford to do those kind of things. Maybe your local college or school has a problem, but I don’t see such abuse down here. That hardly makes the case for a new governor.
No, Josef, you won’t see reality or common sense, so I won’t attempt to instill it in you. Go on with your sad partisan raving. I’ll make sure it gets posted so everyone can see you for who you really are.
Here here… we shouldn’t conclude that every foul we see in public officials is representatively opposed to our political views.
Comment by Jenny — 12/21/04 @ 12:58 pm
Go right ahead. But, by saying you want to enfranchise questionable King County ballots that are probably illegal – you disenfranchise honest votes. Including the troops – and even though you don’t intend to do so, you do so via dillution.
I have mentioned DSHS and the rest so you get an idea of where the anger comes from. And yes, Skagit Valley College Board of Trustees – gubernatorial appointees – has pulled retreats at ritzy restaurants, as do many other community college boards. In a moment, I’ll post the blog links.
Otherwise, good points. You ask introspective questions. You should be a teacher or a lawyer.
Not only is Joseph suggesting a $4 million runoff election, he’s also suggesting we shut down the state entirely until it occurs, which would end up with a net cost of hundreds of billions of dollars. No one could get to work. No one would even have electricity or water, seeing as how they’re provided by state agencies. If Joseph had his way, we’d all lose our jobs and freeze to death, and those of us who somehow survive would end up paying the bill. Hey, I have a better idea, why not just form a militia to go around killing and raping innocent people? Or would that be going too far, Joseph?
It’s quite obvious Joseph has completely lost whatever shred of sanity he might have had before this election. It’s probably best if everyone ignores him until he goes away.
Okay, here’s the support for my flame-throwing comments:
“BABIES DIE AS DSHS PARTIES ON” – http://josef-a-k.blogspot.com/.....esque.html
“…AND FLIPS THE BIRD AT THE STATE AUDITOR” – http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....id14m.html
“SKAGIT VALLEY COLLEGE TRUSTEES RETREAT AT RITZY RESTAURANTS” – http://josef-a-k.blogspot.com/.....s-and.html
“GREGOIRE DENIES ACCESS TO PUBLIC RECORDS!” – http://josef-a-k.blogspot.com/.....cords.html
I DON’T WANT FOUR MORE YEARS OF HELL! AND I DON’T WANT MY STATE GOVERNMENT OF JUST SPITBALLS!
Comment by Brent — 12/21/04 @ 1:10 pm
THINK ONE WORD: UKRAINE. THAT’S WHAT THEY DID… OR CLOSE ENOUGH! :-)
AND IF DEAN CAN SCREAM, SO CAN ME!
Jim, I disagree with your characterization that only King, Chelan and Thurston are reconsidering rejected ballots. The Whatcom 7 were, somewhat like the King ballots, placed in the wrong pile. Storing the 723 with the rejected ballots does not mean the 723 were actually rejected.
But you make an even more important point:
This is essentially why the Supremes will not stop the ballots from being counted, because if they take discretion away from the canvassing board, then potentially the decision on nearly every ballot will be challenged in court. The courts don’t want that. Not even a Republican dominated court would want that.
“Hey, I have a better idea, why not just form a militia to go around killing and raping innocent people? Or would that be going too far, Joseph?”
YES. DON’T PAINT ME AS THAT FAR OUT THERE FOR VENTING A LITTLE…
Comment by Goldy — 12/21/04 @ 1:15 pm
We’re very respectfully trying to hold our bile as we say AGAIN, no more ballots after certification. That’s what we want because that’s what the rules – written mostly by Democrats (both Gregocrats and Dinocrats) – say!
I’m going over the top today, as you can tell. Maybe I get a Dori award – or I get a Marummy salute for standing up for the troops!
You ARE that far out there. If we shut down the state entirely, as you suggest, it would kill about as many people as the Janjawid have so far in Darfur. Your reason for killing all those people is just as ridiculous as the Janjawid’s reasoning that the people they kill are Christians so it’s somehow okay.
Comment by Brent — 12/21/04 @ 1:21 pm
I NEVER SAID KILL ANYONE. STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. I OBVIOUSLY MEANT CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE!
TO COMPARE WHAT I’M SAYING WITH DARFUR MAKES ME WANT TO NOMINATE YOU FOR A DORI!
Venting a little? You’ve obviously lost touch with reality.
“Go right ahead. But, by saying you want to enfranchise questionable King County ballots that are probably illegal – you disenfranchise honest votes.”
I was for a recanvassing of the entire state. That isn’t going to happen. We need to count as many votes as we possibly can: it all goes back to that idea of counting every vote.
The King County votes are not in any way, shape, or form illegal ballots. They are valid ballots that should be counted. Other counties have already counted such ballots, Josef, and given votes to Rossi. I didn’t hear you complaining when that was happening.
The Republicans are already done with this election. They want a new one because they know they will lose this one if the counties follow state law (which all the other counties have been doing). They’re only interested in winning. Well, too bad. I think the Supreme Court will rule against the Republican Party and allow those votes to be counted. It’s the only sensible thing to do.
Goldy- the Whatcom 7 had been ACCEPTED- they were provisional ballots that had been verified, signature matched, and were supposed to have next been opened and counted. The same with the Snohomish 224- absentee ballots that had been verified, signatures matched, and had already been opened and prepared for counting. The Pierce County 1 was verified, signature matched, opened for counting, and fed into the machine (where it jammed). And so on. NONE of the ballots other than King, Chelan, and Thurston can be considered, intentionally or inadvertantly, or improperly, as REJECTED.
That is a meterial difference. Whether it is material enough for the State Supreme Court is the question…
And there is no problem in backing out the Chelan and Thurston ballots, which are the only two counted that were previously rejected (and they HAD been rejected, even more than the King 723). The Court CAN- not saying WILL- rule narrowly on the Republican position on “previously rejected” ballots and not create headaches.
To rule more broadly, that ANY ballot not counted previously cannot be counted now, given the admitted mingling of ballots in Grant County (55 ballots, I believe), WOULD open up a can of worms, leaving the Court with only two options I can see, neither satisfying- either the last valid count (the original count) stands as final, or the election is void because sufficient illegal votes were cast and proven to have been cast as to call the election outcome into doubt.
That is why I think the Court will rule, yea or nay, on the narrow issue the Republicans have put forward- previously “rejected” ballots- a universe of 723 plus one plus one for which we can account.
The only other group of fruit I can see them having ANY desire to address might be the King 22…
Joseph, if we shut down the state entirely, there would be no electricity or water. Everyone would have to move. The people who cannot afford to move would freeze to death or die of dehydration. No one could get to work. No one could get paid and cash their check because the banks would be closed. A lot of people would die, but you didn’t even bother to think about that before you suggested your ridiculous idea. You know, the federal government can shut down for a week or two without anyone really noticing, but if the entire state was shut down, as you suggest, there would be no heat or water. That would kill many people.
Comment by Jenny — 12/21/04 @ 1:24 pm
Okay, my afterburners are off. I see yours are too. I was trying to say in full Dean mode it was time for civil disobedience IF Gregoire wins.
I am not going to repeat me again and again… but will post a paper on my blog very soon why those ballots should be chucked.
Josef
Okay, Brent – last time on this issue: A general strike is what happened in Serbia to overthrow Slobo. That’s what I recommended here, in Dean mode.
I do however think you make a good case against ANY public sector strikes…
as in they’re a bad idea. I tend to support them, for limited periods of time and as an absolute last resort.
Jim King – thank for for articulating again and again our case. I’m sorry but between a best friend’s hubby an EA-6B squadron CO and another 6 feet under and a friend of a friend (who posts here) with family in Iraq – I hope people can understand my furor.
But Jim, to throw out the 723 not only requires ruling that previously rejected ballots cannot be reconsidered, it also requires ruling exactly what it means to be previously rejected, and this is somewhat open to interpretation. The 723 were not accepted, but they were not explicitly rejected either… although there is no question that they were treated like they were rejected.
Again, I don’t think the court will want to get into this, regardless of the specifics of these particular ballots. The KC canvass board says they should be counted, and the SOS agrees that they have the discretion to make this decision. To overrule the canvass board is to take away this discretion.
Of course, nothing prevents Rossi from contesting the election after the fact… except maybe, common sense.
Hey, Stefan – if you come back – could please drop some Napalm, too?
I just said what I said before I saw Goldy’s quote and to let some of you smell REAL Ukraine-grade napalm…
That said, I think the State Supremes will haruspex the situation…
Well, folks- it appears ALL documents are now on the SOS site- haven’t checked accuracy of links yet (there were some the first time through that were faulty, and as of yesterday were not fixed):
http://www.secstate.wa.gov/ele.....nt.aspx?#d
I wonder if Brad Owen is the happiest guy in the world right now…
Joseph, how would any type of strike shut down the interstates? Unless the striking workers would be walking across it to protest, I don’t understand what you mean. Just wondering. I’m out the door now but I’ll be back tonight.
A reminder to everyone to watch the Supreme Court proceedings tomorrow morning at 9:30 on TVW. I hope everyone will be able to watch them. I don’t want us to have to sort out what happened based on news reports.
I just nominated Paul Berendt for the Dori!
Here’s my e-mailed votes:
Nationally: This is hard, as in very hard but it’s George Walker Bush. 4 More Years of Hell! Ut-oh!
Locally: Hands down, Paul Berendt. Crying about “count every vote†and then only helping Gregocrats (Gregoire supporters) have their votes counted – as he nominates himself for irritating Dinocrats (Dem Rossi Supporters) and Republicans…
GO DINO ROSSI!
Brent, recall the CAO protest? Or the blacks walking onto I-5 to block traffic a while back? That’s what I thought of.
Joseph, the fact that you refer to African-Americans not only as “black people” but as “the blacks” speaks volumes about your world view. Subtle, I know, but the devil is in the details.
If Dino steals this, Josef, Seattle will recall him.
Josef – you seem trapped by some cases of frustration with Govt. agencies. Can’t say that I have ever thought Community College Boards are over funded…..and it is personal to you for some reason.
You seen to be a quasi Dem trapped in Dino’s Sheep/Wolf charade. That is your decison, hard game to play as you watch the shrill and unreasonable crap his Cheer Leaders are putting out.
On camera interview yesterday, with his press lady – Easy, good question about other counties correcting mistakes, she fumbled for a bit, THEN this gem, ” Well those votes do not matter because there wern’t that many”
How can you be more goofy and unprincipled? AboutToExplodeVance is even worse. Ranting about possible illegal votes, meltdown, chaos – what silly blather.
But back to the election, huh. —-Gregoire by 189 —if the votes are in. Gregoire by 87 with out them.
And if the R’s contest this election, they will bury themselves for 20 more years. Yes, Ellen Craswell and Val Stevens and John Carlson are advising Chis Vance……seems so to me.
I agree, based on the numbers, that Gregoire will likely come out ahead without the 700 some odd ballots. That would end the debate for sure…for some.
What then? A contest from Camp Rossi? I heard it said that Wa Dems will poison the well if they asked for a manual recount. Possibly. The one thing they have going for them is the rule of law. The Republican retoric I read illogically suggest rules are being broken. Sorry Campers but it WAS that close. And this is the result based on the rules we defined for the game.
If Camp Rossi looses and contests the election, Bob is correct, but the hole may be deeper 4 years from now combined with a national election. That is up to W.
Considering that recent Republican tactics have mostly been to very loudly accuse their opponents of doing whatever they themselves are doing, has anyone followed up on the consideration that the Republicans were the first to imply that the 723 votes implied intentional malfeasance? (ie. were those votes in a Democratic stronghold hidden on purpose? Were Republican partisans in a position to cause those votes to be forgotten?)
“Jim, to throw out the 723 not only requires ruling that previously rejected ballots cannot be reconsidered, it also requires ruling exactly what it means to be previously rejected, and this is somewhat open to interpretation.”
Goldy- IF the Court wants to go there, that is NOT diificult to do (define “previously rejected”- or define “accepted” and only allow those in- gets you to the same place). The point I’m trying to make is that the only “easy to administer” outs for the Court are to
1) either reject the 723 plus one plus one (and the 22) in a narrowly defined ruling that doesn’t touch on the other counties fixing errors that does not involve “previous rejection” or “lack of acceptance”, or
2) allow the King County Canvassing Board to proceed as it saw fit.
The Court could do either of those things, and either can be administered easily, and do not involve how to straighten out any other county. That is why I find the “alarm raising” over what other counties have done to be so funny- it doesn’t matter what the other counties did or didn’t do. The Court can do Fruit Salad with Oranges, or Fruit Salad without Oranges…
Wow, go away for two hours and people are throwing around requests for Napalm, accusations of murder, etc. Glad to see we’re so many productive posts here.
Assuming these accusations (about late ballots) are true, it sucks that members of the armed forces (or anyone) didn’t get their ballots in time to vote (due to slip-ups or postal service problems). Personally, assuming these voters are legally registered and have proof they followed the rules, I’d be in favor of making an exception and letting their votes count (assuming they mailed them back as soon as they got them). Unlike the Rossifarians, I’m actually consistent when I say counting every legal vote and making sure beuracratic screwups don’t disenfranchise anyone.
Of course I love how Republicans latch onto technicalities when they can be used to disenfranchise Democrats but bitch about them when the shoe’s on the other foot. I seem to remember something about a law that all ballots must be postmarked by November 2nd.
Ballots don’t get to you in time – tough luck. Accidentally put a dot in the wrong place on your ballot – tough luck. County crushes your ballot by dropping your ballot on the ground – tough luck. Can’t be changing the rules you know.
Jim – excellent point. The court could go so far as to make a (new) narrow distinction based on the precise set of facts surrounding each set of included/excluded ballots. But based on their last ruling and not feeling the need to open the door to challenge every other set of ballots, I believe they will procced with option 2 you outlined above.
Either way, Christine wins. However, the quickest way is to count the 723 or so ballots. I think the county should reject the 22 ballots, as they have no record of where these votes came from or anything. Sad for those 22 voters, that mistake should never happen again.
King County has done a great disservice to the state and particular to the two candidates by mistakenly rejecting these two ballots. I think if these ballots are allowed to hold up and make a difference in the recount in favor of Chris, we need to have King County pay for the entire recount of the state.
We also need to take a look at election laws, and reforming the existing laws. The secretary of state, who has been incredibly unbiased up to this point, should be commended for his hard work and dedication. He may have sided with the republicans in certain cases, but he is sticking to his guns and the policies that were previously agreed on.
As for the Rossi voter who didnt receive his or her ballot on time, sorry for him. He could have filled out a special overseas provisional ballot, writing in his desired choices, and had it sent before November 2 at 8 PM, local time.
The democrats will pick up votes regardless of the decision made by the state courts, and likely will win the election as a consequence. However, the best way of doing things is to let these other votes count, and let King County count their 723 ballots.
Thanks for adding to the discussion John – I didn’t know it was possible to fill out a provisional overseas ballot if you don’t receive your official absentee. And I’m not using that to excuse sending ballots late.
I agree completely that Sam Reed has done a good job. I’d add Dean Logan to the mix, which I know will cause the Rossifarians to blow a gasket (as they’re constantly asking us to take a flame-thrower to the KC election board). The PI had a good editorial pointing out that the percentage of errors in KC is actually lower than a large number of small counties. While I won’t excuse mistakes KC has made, I also won’t support calling them out for such massive condemnation. The evidence just doesn’t support it.
Actually, the narrow interpretation you suggest does not reject the 22. They are an entirely separate issue, analogous to some of the other “new” ballots that have been counted elsewhere.
Goldy- agreed that they are not in the narrow 22- they are the grapes- but if the Court rejects the 723, King County would be wise to reject the 22… And they appear to be leaning in that direction, because of the chain of custody poblem…
But no matter what kind of fruit salad, I have no doubts that the nuts will be there…
Now, there are walnuts, then there are…
I can see that if KC announces results tomorrow that favor Rossi, and the Supremes allow them to recount the 723, the Rs are going to throw a complete fit. Frankly, I couldn’t care less what the Rs do in response. If the court allows KC to count those ballots, they should.
If KC’s results favor Gregoire, it’s probably a moot point.
Comment by DustinJames— 12/21/04 @ 1:51 pm
YOU’VE BEEN DARED! GO RIGHT AHEAD SEATTLE! WHO YOU GOT? RON SIMS? LARRY PHILLIPS? GREG NICKELS? I DARE YOU!
Comment by Bob from Boeing— 12/21/04 @ 1:51 pm
“Josef – you seem trapped by some cases of frustration with Govt. agencies. Can’t say that I have ever thought Community College Boards are over funded…..and it is personal to you for some reason.”
This is going on statewide – and Gregoire’s assistant AGs are making excuses. You want government to be a kleptocracy & fatten itself or to be held accountable or to be starved? Vote appropiately. (First choice Gregoire, Second Dinocrat, Third Libertarian/Eyman).
“You seen to be a quasi Dem trapped in Dino’s Sheep/Wolf charade. That is your decison, hard game to play as you watch the shrill and unreasonable crap his Cheer Leaders are putting out.”
Thanks… for I am a Dinocrat! DINO ROSSI IS MY GOVERNOR! TOGETHER WE WILL BRING JUSTICE TO THE ROGUE AGENCIES!
“On camera interview yesterday, with his press lady – Easy, good question about other counties correcting mistakes, she fumbled for a bit, THEN this gem, ” Well those votes do not matter because there wern’t that many””
First I heard… I think that’s not really true because I know Mary “Marummy” Lane has been clear: NO BALLOTS AFTER CERTIFICATION.
“Yes, Ellen Craswell and Val Stevens and John Carlson are advising Chis Vance……seems so to me.”
I don’t mind Carlson – I’ve heard him on the radio. He seems okay. I also might join a Chris Vance fan club… But the other two – I wouldn’t miss them…
Comment by jcricket— 12/21/04 @ 3:12 pm
The Rossifarian point is that if you can’t do it for the soldiers, you can’t do it for the King County folks – most of whom were advised of signature trouble…
Don’t worry, I’ll be nice: Stefan, don’t napalm JCricket. Napalm Brent. Bad. Cook him.
“Comment by John Slyfield— 12/21/04 @ 3:27 pm”
You sound like we’re just talking about State Department people and soldiers here in the CONUS – NOT soldiers running around the Middle East, on aircraft carriers, the like. I find that concerning. See my last reply as to why…
Comment by jcricket— 12/21/04 @ 3:48 pm
Dean Logan is one bad dude. Don’t get me started…
He believes in counting every vote. . . FOR Gregoire! I’ve seen enough. “Governor Dean” Logan should just post here some screams and go back to Kitsap County!
Ah, now we see Josef using Republican tactic number two. Its called misdirection and appeal to patriotism. Whatever you call it, it really has nothing to do with 723 votes not counted in King county.
Yes, it sucks that some soldiers did not receive ballots. Still, as an ex-Navy man myself I can tell you that everyone there a) had access to a phone to contact someone when they did not receive a ballot THREE WEEKS before the election and b) one of the thing HAMMERED into military is that its up to the personel to get that ballot in; if you sit on it till Nov 3 thats YOUR fault. I frankly find ‘I didn’t get it till Nov 3’ more than a little too convienient.
None the less, it really has nothing to do with votes that were PROPERLY SUBMITTED and is nothing but misdirection from the real issue.
I predict the next response from the Republicans will be to claim that terrorists somehow are involved.
Bill is exactly right. The fact that ballots may (or may not) have been received by some soldiers has no bearing on KCs right to count votes that were validy, legally cast before the election deadline.
I’m not arguing that soldiers haven’t potentially been disenfranchised. If that’s the case, that sucks (and yes, while it’s possible they could have called someone, the onus should be on the county to make sure those abroad get their ballots early). Of course it’s also possible that the US military postal service held up these ballots in some kind of snafu. That would suck, but wouldn’t be KCs fault.
Josef– please dont respond to what each person has said in several responses. It’s really offensive, to be quite honest. Seems like you dont know the facts or something.
As for the 22 ballots, they should be rejected. Noone knows really what happened to them, so they should not count. The 735 ballots or so King County had secured properly, so those should (and i predict will).
Comment by Bill — 12/21/04 @ 5:53 pm
Nice points. I honestly didn’t know this. Maybe the troops on the ground need to say if they got this info or not or what the story was. I really hate to ask, as somebody who hasn’t been into a war zone – but was this kind of information “HAMMERED” into you when you went off into battle? I just want to get to the bottom of this.
Comment by John Slyfield — 12/21/04 @ 6:08 pm
Who knows what’ll happen… I can’t say much more because Jim King is more articulate than I am on this matter.
Folks- We can give a big hurrah to the Libertarian Party for the disenfranchisement of overseas voters- ballots were held up while the Libertarians became the first of the major political parties to go to court to change the rules. They won, but held up the printing of ballots, making them late for overseas voters (not that counties too often failed to make adequate provision to protect the military vote, knowing that there would be a problem).
Of course, the Libertarians then failed to maintain their major party status, but they did succeed in sticking it to Gregoire. What would be happening now if the Libertarian candidate for governor had NOT been on the ballot?
And Democrats LOVE lawsuits? Why?
And folks- that last line was sarcasm, not straight comment…
“The Libertarians became the first of the major political parties to go to court to change the rules”
Jim, I was too caught up in other political battles to remember about that one. Could you please refresh my memory as to what happened?
State law requires the nominee of a major political party to garner one percent of the vote in the primary in order to appear on the general election ballot. Ruth Bennett got barely one-half of that requirement. The Libertarians went to court to overturn the state law- Sam Reed opposed them. A King County Superior Court judge changed the rules that had been in place for almost three decades, and since ballots were already late being printed, Reed chose not to appeal. The top-two primary now makes the issue moot.
But under the long-settled practices of this state, Ruth Bennett should NOT have been on the general election ballot.
Ruth Bennett needs to run for Judge in Pierce County.
Bob- that would drive the Pierce County good ol’ boy Bar nuts- not only femal, but lesbian! Can just imagine what they’d do to her in their ratings…
Remember, tommorrow is orange day…everyone wear orange and remember BIG SMILE
Comment by Jim King— 12/21/04 @ 7:45 pm
Okay, NOW I remember! Geese.
I intend to find something Orange to put on…
To all the people complaining about the (supposed) late mailing of the ballots to the Military: You should not support a measure to require that absentee ballots be in by Nov 2nd (rather than just postmarked). Do you want the military even more tied to the whims of the postal system?
From a PI article: “Reed plans to revive a previously rejected proposal to require that mail-in ballots be received by county auditors by Election Day, a more restrictive deadline than the current requirement that such ballots be post-marked by Election Day.”
This is the one proposed piece of election reform I don’t like (so far). I live in the state, so it will be easy for me to send my ballot in early enough to virtually guarantee it will be received before Nov. 2nd, but those overseas or in the military might have much a harder time.
I think we need to strongly consider experimenting with internet voting for overseas military personel.
Well – they proposed to do that (I forget where) for this election, but of course it was one of those tests run by a closed-source voting system with no paper trail, and people quickly found problems with it, so they shut down the test…
Rossi should give up while he can still hope to have some political jobs in the future . HE LOST GIVE UP MORONS.