As I was finishing up my recent post on religion, I put off raising this issue that Josh Marshall posts about today:
Here’s one other point I want to raise about Wright. Having watched the full sermons that his sound bites were grabbed out of, it’s pretty clear to me that the snippets running on Youtube were taken out of context and heavily distorted. (But that’s life, to a degree — political hits don’t usually come packaged with extenuating context) I’m also not going to get into the business of full-scale defenses of someone who has apparently suggested that the US government had some role in “inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color.”
But in the debate about Wright, which Sen. Clinton has just reignited, it seems to be spoken of now as an unquestioned assumption that Wright traffics in racist rhetoric or hate speech. But is that really true? I’ve seen some stuff that strikes me as whacky. I’ve heard soundbites that critics would not have much trouble spinning as anti-American. But are there really quotes that justify the charge of racism? I’m not saying that purely as a rhetorical question. I have not made myself a full Wrightologist. But I do get the sense that a lot of people believe he’s so radioactive that it makes no sense to point out when others are treating as granted claims that appear demonstrably false.
I often get annoyed at how easily some liberals throw out the racist tag when it’s not deserved (see: Imus, Don), but this looks a case where the shoe is on the other foot. Criticizing America, even being insanely paranoid about our own government, isn’t the same thing as racism. Has Wright said anything that qualifies as being racist? If so, what?
I agree with what your saying. I also haven’t heard anything that makes Wright out to be racist. At this point, Wright has simply become a punching bag. It seems that people feel free to attach whatever accusation they want to without research. I was listening to NPR today, and a caller said that he wouldn’t be voting for Obama because Wright was a homophobe. The host (I’m sorry I can’t remember what show or host it was) was kind enough to point out that Wright has supported gay and lesbian ministers and started one of the first AIDs outreach groups in his part of Chicago. It seems that logic need not apply when discussing Wright.
When is someone going to condemn JOHN McCAIN because the head of McCain’s own religious denomination proudly stands with the Rev. Jeremiah Wright on the AIDS issue? Check out the following URL:
http://www.episcopalchurch.org.....NG_HTM.htm
John McCain is a member of the Episcopal Church USA. If Barack Obama is given blame (or credit) for the statements and associations of the Trinity United Church of Christ, to which he belongs, why doesn’t the same thing apply to John McCain?
Please look at the link above, from the official Episcopal Church USA website. It is entitled “Letter to President Bush from Religious Leaders on World AIDS Day”, and makes certain statements, attacks, and requests regarding the U.S. commitment to fight AIDS, especially with respect to sub-Saharan Africa.
But more importantly, look at who has signed the letter, and is promoted as supporters of the letter on the official Episcopal Church USA website:
Maureen T. Shea, Director of Government Relations, the Episcopal Church USA — who is the official spokesperson for John McCain’s denomination in dealing with government relations
Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Trinity United Church of Christ — who is/was the pastor of Barack Obama’s church
If the leadership of John McCain’s own religious denomination will not repudiate their associations with Rev. Wright, then why should Barack Obama?
Why should Barack Obama be expected to leave his own church and join some other church, when nobody is calling upon John McCain to change his religion?
I also bet that we could find plenty of Episcopal Church USA clergy who have defended Rev. Jeremiah Wright in recent weeks and months — not necessarily to agree with his more offensive statements, but to at least place matters into context, and at least empathize (as opposed to sympathize) with Rev. Wright. For that matter, the United Methodist Church minister of Hillary Clinton’s own church has also defended Rev. Wright regarding the recent controversy:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsme.....ts-rev.php
Being a white -person , in the dominant culture it is somewhat hard to understand the thoughts or heart of Reverend Wright . Being a conservative minded individual I am aware that many in the black community may despise my values or politics based on some racist beliefs that were used within conservativism to hurt the black community . States rights in the 60s meant keeping blacks down in the south , Reagan announcing his candidacy is still used in the Black community to stir anger and point fingers at their perceived enemy because he did it in the south trumping states rights . .
To me it always meant things could done better if decisions were left to people in the local area instead of in DC .
Having that said , I think we all need perhaps to be able to listen more and talk less when it comes to race in this country .
But hearing the way Goldie and many from the left describe conservatives and how conservatives describe the left it appears way to complicated for me to sort out .
But using the same measuring stick to judge Wright is not really fair . He is speaking from a position where I expect him to meet me mutually , and for the black man in this country that has not been easy because of racial discrimination .
It’s the Silly Season, and “my country right or wrong” is in full flower. When our country is wrong, it’s wrong. We should want it to be right. It’s not wrong to criticize our country when it’s not right; but it’s wrong to not criticize our country when it’s wrong, because criticism is what ends wrong and sets us on the right path. The Right is wrong, and the Left is right.
Has Wright said anything that qualifies as being racist?
Lee, I believe I asked this very question over at EFFin’ Unsound. As I’d hoped, you’ve chosen to ask it here. Thanks.
That said, the answer is both simple and obvious: not a bloody thing. But, if we label the man as racist, it means we don’t have to listen to what he says.
Richard @ 2 & 3
Again, you’re comparing apples and bananas. In Obama’s case, he admits to sitting in the pews when some of Wright’s hate speech was spouted AND he acknowledges Wright as a close friend and spiritual advisor. In McCain’s case, you’re still not talking about his immediate spiritual advisor: the pastor / reverend / priest in his specific church. And you’re also not talking about TWENTY YEARS and an intimate relationship. There are many local churches that differ from their denominations’ national offices.
Obama’s bad judgment has to do with the people with whom he DIRECTLY associates himself. He’s pretty much gotten a pass on the Farrakhan stuff because there is a degree of separation. Obama also gets a pass on Wright’s overseas escapades. What he’s being rightly scrutinized for is the LOCAL actions that he admits he saw happening in his own house of worship over an extended period of time.
Don Joe @ 6
Some of the things he said WERE racist unless you argue that “the government” that he accuses of trying to murder “people of color” includes said people of color. The balance of his comments come from the perspective of African-Americans and refer to “America” and “the government” as being something apart from “Black America,” unless he is saying that African-Americans are complicit in their own troubles. ANY time you create broad racial distinctions in the context of good & bad, you’re being racist.
Take what Wright said below and substitute any ethnic group. Now what he said is racist. In Wright’s case, that may be his way of bonding with his flock. If that is the case, he might not be racist at heart.
“It just came to me …why so many folks are hatin’ on Barack Obama. He doesn’t fit the mold. He ain’t white….Hillary fits the mold. Europeans fit the mold. Giuliani fits the mold. Rich white men fit the mold….”
Using the pulpit to incite racial divides is a racist act, no matter the motives. Bill Clinton’s comment about Jesse J winning South Carolina was a racist comment made for political spin, and would not suggest that he is a racist. But the comment proved that he is weak and succumbs to racist acts when they suit his fancy.
Overall I agree with your point: weak people like Imus and Wright and Bill Clinton say racist things for a variety of reasons even if they don’t think through what they are saying the same way we would.
I can’t imagine staying with a church that goes so far afield from bringing people together. Wright is headed in the opposite direction. Thats reason enough to find a new church and a smart politician like Obama should have known better than to stick with Wright for so long, unless he really believes all that BS.
Ya’ll should read Dick Morris on this matter; he notes that we all know, but won’t say, that Obama used Wright to build up his “black” credentials (being 1/2 black by way of a 1st gen immigrant left him tagged an oreo (combined too w/ the prep school education).
He notes Obama could never have gotten elected in Chicago were it not for associating w/ Wright. But also as others note, that political expediency now has its cost.
The whole “whites, US gov’t invented aids” and other nonsense are endemic in black political culture. wierd culture if you ask me; here you have some blacks rising to highest levels, amidst embarrassing backwards people of the same skin tone. its a very odd culture in that permutation
Sorry, folks, if you have to redefine the meaning of the word “racism” in order to make the label stick, then you’ve proved my point. If you can’t use a full and direct quote, but have to resort to the use of various paraphrases, in order to make the label stick, then you’ve proved my point. Better still, when the word “inflicted” in one of the more commonly repeated paraphrases morphs into the word “invented,” you’ve really proved my point.
Allow me to relate a little story to illustrate how racism manifests itself. During the Reagan Administration, the Reagan’s sponsored a series of concerts known as “Young Artists In Performance at the White House.” One of those performances featured Stan Getz and Dizzy Gillespie. Each of them brought along a protégé; Getz brought Diane Schuur and Gillespie brought Jon Faddis. As something of a side note, Dizzy had introduced Getz to Schuur at the 1979 Monterey Jazz Festival.
The performance was emcee’d by Itzhak Perlman. Perlman introduced Getz and Gillespie, who then performed Groovin’ High, a song written by Gillespie. After the song, Perlman expressed his love of jazz, and then proceeded to carry on a conversation with Getz about the origin and meaning of bebop.
Allow me to repeat that. Perlman wanted to talk about the origin and meaning of bebop, and he turned to Stan Getz in order to answer that question, not Dizzy Gillespie. And, Stan Getz did not simply shut his mouth and defer to Gillespie.
Now, neither Itzahk Perlman nor Stan Getz are people who would fit the general notion of “racist”. But, how do you explain this faux pas? You have one of the prime movers in the bebop movement, a man who was there from the beginning, who formed and led the first true bebop big band and who did more to spread and influence bebop than any other human being on earth standing right there. Yet, nobody thinks to include him in a discussion about the origin and meaning bebop.
Yet, when we start talking about racism, episodes like this are at the heart of the discussion. Imagine having lived a lifetime punctuated at nearly every turn by slights like this, and then go back and watch Rev. Wright’s sermons. And, watch the whole thing, not just a few clips excised out of the sermons by folks who have an agenda.
@ 9
I can’t imagine staying with a church that goes so far afield from bringing people together.
First of all, Wright’s remarks aren’t all that “far afield” from bringing people together.
More importantly, however, if the church in question had one of the most effective (“effective” in the sense of real improvements in peoples lives) community outreach programs in the area, would that change your mind? Just how “far afield” would the Pastor’s comments have to be in order for you to withdraw your support from one of the best things happening in your community?
Excellent post here, Lee. I have noticed that discussions on matters of race often quickly turn into dueling accusations of racism. Dems bring up Strom Thurmond, the ‘Southern strategy’ etc. Repubs counter with Robert Byrd, William Fulbright, etc.
No one ever seems to notice that both sides implicitly agree that racism is wrong and belongs in the ash heap of history. Why can’t we get together and figure out ways to move forward? Why does it always end up as a finger pointing match?
It is seemingly impossible to have a discussion about race without having it turn into partisan vs. partisan (reminds me a lot of the old spy vs. spy cartoons in Mad Magazine).
I predict that this thread will go that route too. But first would anyone care to address my question: why?
@7: Do you denounce and renounce McCain’s SEEKING OUT the endorsement of Hatin’Hage? Yes or no? Answer that one, Mr. Apples and Oranges.
@ 13
I predict that this thread will go that route too. But first would anyone care to address my question: why?
That one’s easy. Nobody wants to own the problem. By pointing the finger at someone else, we all get to avoid dealing with our own role in the issue.
#10
“The whole “whites, US gov’t invented aids” and other nonsense are endemic in black political culture.”
Do you mean the “other nonsense” like the Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male?
Yeah, it is all “nonsense”. And Willie Horton was white.
@13: “No one ever seems to notice that both sides implicitly agree that racism is wrong and belongs in the ash heap of history.”
That is simply nonsense. Ask yourself this: Which side will cite The Bell Curve to bolster its arguments? Which side argues strenuously in defense of flying the Confederate flag? Which side waves off dismissively the obvious racial disparaties observed in health, wealth, jobs…etc.? Which one?
Case closed.
@ 17
Might I inject a word of caution. While it might be extremely plausible to note widely varying degrees of racism and a correlation between the degree of racism and left vs right political leaning, it wouldn’t be correct to simply label all right-wingers racist without acknowledging that racism spans society as a whole. It’s our problem, not just their problem.
The only way to “win” (and I use the term loosely) on this issue is to take the high road.
Lee
Hands clapped high on this one.
There are racists in this story.
The behavior of the media and of Mrs. Clinton in the last several days has been nothing short of a lynching. If those words are too strong for some, you must be too young t remember the civil rights movement or the McCarthy era. Tactics just like this were used by the racists and bigots of that time to destroy those who they did not like.
Who is the racist, Mr. Wright when he says “WE” brought 9/11 on ourselves or Tim Russert when he insists Mr. Obama say he is not still a buddy with Farakkhan ?”
Who is the racist when CNN runs the Wright clips over and over again without any effort to discuss the content?
Who is a bigot when the media, INCLUDING THE NY TIMES, has never run the full text of one of the rev’s sermons? Are they taking lessons in editing from the Colbert Report?
Who is a racist when clips from Obama’s amazing speech is never run alongside the Wright clips because, we are told, Barack’s speech was “too adult.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Last night at DL I pointed out the amazing forbearance of Obama in not retaliating in kind. For example, Hillary’s church has told its members to disinvest in Israel. Why is it that the Obama camp does not use this as a parry to the Wright issue? Coud he be hnest? Clinton, as she said, is willing t throw everything into the fray. Does that remind anyone of the judgment shown by outr current POTUS?
Another DLer, lests call him Henry, defended Clinton and criticized Obama. he said that all is fair in politics?
Henry, All??? Is Racism fair? How much good did the Horton adds or the quiet bhigotry of the Reagan years do our country?
Henry, I like and admire you but all is NOT fair in politics. Racism is racism and it is enough reason not to vote for Hillary Clinton.
@18 DJ
The issue here is not the racism of faux and the radical right, the issue is OUR racism.
Don,
Caution noted. However, when it comes to public policy, that is where the rubber meets the road, and the discussion quickly devolves into the classic ‘blame game’. Certainly, racism is our problem. There is no denying that. Admitting a background of cultural and racial disparity is just the first step to understanding.
Unfortunately, it is in the trenches of partisan warfare that this is worked out. On the other hand, it is indeed gratifying that we have at least gotten beyond heated arguments regarding the legitimization of slavery (cf. discussions re race, circa 1850)and whether or not a black person can vote or sip a cup of coffee next to you in the local diner (circa 1960).
We still have a long way to go.
@6
Lee, I believe I asked this very question over at EFFin’ Unsound. As I’d hoped, you’ve chosen to ask it here. Thanks.
You did, and thank you. I posted that up too quickly and went along with the notion that Wright has displayed some racism. I still don’t see anything from him that qualifies as being racist.
@13 zdp189
What BS … unless HRC has swirtched parties (goood idea that) or CNN and MSNBC are now otlets for the radicaks, it is OUR side that is being racist this time.
Worse, Mrs. Clinton is perpetuating race baiting tactics invented by ,, you guessed it .. the Reaganites. They were wrong and so is she.
Lee
I would go further and support some of Rev. Wright’s comments as being the acme of Americansism. God Damn the US for electing GWB. God Damn the uS ofr our continung behavior toward the Indians.
Is God damning different from fucking?
How about fuck the uS for not passing domestic partnership rules?
@23
Um, Steve, I think you’re close to proving zdp189’s point. It’s not about Democrats or Republicans here or whose “side” it is, it’s about people who find that they can exploit the racial divide for their political advantage. And while I didn’t articulate this very well in the podcast (I was sober and awful last night), this is the problem I’m having with Hillary right now. But that’s far from indicting everyone on the left, or all Democrats, or anything like that.
Is Pastor Wright a racist? Most definitely. Is Obama a racist? Yes, but it apparently doesn’t affect the way he conducts business.
Everyone has racist tendencies to some degree. As we hunter-gatherers moved out of Africa to different areas, we evolved different skin colors and features to deal with the different climates. Throw in some other ethnic and religious differences, and racism is inevitigble. It’s how we control those tendencies that matter. Wright obviously can’t control his racism.
@ 20
As a friend of mine would say, I think you and I are in violent agreement.
Zip and TRM are just playing the old Joe McCarthy tape.
Just crap against a wall and hoping it will stick.
Racism isn’t holding blacks back. They are holding themselves back, and blaming it on racism.
Is Pastor Wright a racist? Most definitely. Is Obama a racist? Yes, but it apparently doesn’t affect the way he conducts business
You haven’t really answered the question except to simply assert the contrapositive. Once again, exactly what did Rev. Wright say that makes him racist, and please try to answer that question without redefining “racism” in such a way that simply begs the question.
@ 29
Racism isn’t holding blacks back. They are holding themselves back, and blaming it on racism.
Really? How does this claim mesh with what happened to Dizzy Gillespie at the White House in 1982?
David Neiwert at Orcinus blog writes: “When white people insist on making every other black person bear some kind of responsibility for the behavior of a small segment of their community, people who only share with them their racial identity — the kind of responsibility that whites repudiate on their own behalf for white miscreants — that is nothing if not “identity politics” incarnate. And as long as it persists, there’s going to be a racial divide in America that will not be bridged.”
Amen.
More of the Same:
Hillary playing pin the ntisemite tail on and Obamite: article by James Fallows.
DISGUSTING:
http://jamesfallows.theatlanti.....ons_mc.php
PI @26, I’ve heard the ‘racism as primal instinct’ argument before, and I don’t buy it. In the first place if everyone’s a racist, then no one is a racist.
SeattleJew, you’re the biologist–what do you say. Is this BS gobbledygook, or is there something to it?
@32 Aren’t you doing the very same thing by, at least implying, that “white people” are inherently racist?
@ 34
Aren’t you doing the very same thing by, at least implying, that “white people” are inherently racist?
How so? Or did you miss the “When” at the beginning of the quote?
@25 Lee …
I hope I was not misunderstood.
The horror of this season is NOT just that America’s racist underbelly has come to the surface yat again, it is the role of Hillary and the MSM.
Worse yet, there is important truth in a lot of what Rev. Wright says! God damn America sums up a lot of what I feel toward the bad side of this country … including our militant Christianity.
I am thinking of making some GD America buttons with that logo over pictures of the KKK, Hiroshiuma, Wounded knee, Dr. King,
Don Joe, what do you think has a greater effect on the lives of the black community as a whole, their own actions and decisions, or racism?
And I have a follow-up question. Do you think most non-black Americans who have racist or prejudice thoughts have them because they dislike black skin, or because they associate people with black skin with certain behavior?
See, I believe racism exists, but I believe its effect on the black community is much, much smaller than anyone realizes. I believe it’s a scapegoat; a smoke screen for the real root of what ills the black community: Their own choices and actions. And as long as they, the black community as a whole buys into the belief that racism is holding them back, they’ll never move forward.
They key to the success of the black community is in their own hands, but they’ve been brainwashed into believing that the game is fixed, so there’s no use in trying. They are in a sad situation, and no amount of waiting for racism to go away is going to solve some of their problems until they realize they’ve bought into a lie, and they have their future in their own hands.
@33 zdp
My biology qualifications have little to do with making me an expert on racism, but I agree that Politically Incorrect is an a hole.
Tribalism is a much more fundamental human quoaity than discrimination based on skin color. Worse, a lot fo “race” has nothing to do with appearance. BHO could easily pass as a Spaniard or Portageese. My wife has been taklen as an AA by black friends. Alexander Dumas was taken as a Frenchman with no controversy.
THAT is the message of Barack Obama. WE are one people with many tribes. WE share the heritage of Jefferson, Hamilton, Adams … the heritage of slavery and of freedom.
Obama understands that HIS ancestors owned slaves. His wife’s ancestors did too. Slavery is something ALL Americans inheort as we do pride in the glory of the civil rights movement,
Hillary Clinton sullies that great inheritance. Shame on here. God damn her for resurrecting this demon.
As some know hyere I take pride in President Jefferson and wear a WWJD button in his honor.
Can there be any doungbt that President jefferson would support Obama?
Obama is Jefferson’s dream of a resolution ot the slavery poroblem. Barack Obama stand just as Jefferson did for equality of opportunity. Both men transparently love this country for its ability to wipe out class differences.
I have channeled the third President and gotten his permission to endorse Obama.
Dunno if Wright is a racist,but he is definitely anti-Semitic…
http://corner.nationalreview.c.....ZjODM2Nzg=
Wright and Israel [Yuval Levin]
This Trinity United Church of Christ newsletter (PDF link) from last June seems to be making the rounds in Jewish circles. I have now had it e-mailed to me three times in the last 24 hours from friends who all more or less seem to have gotten it through their synagogues. On page 8 of the newsletter, entitled “Pastor’s Page”, Jeremiah Wright prints an “Open Letter to Oprah from Ali Baghdadi on her visit to Palestine.” Baghdadi is described as an “Arab-American activist, writer, columnist,” and the letter, among other things, accuses Israel of once working with South Africa “on an ethnic bomb that kills Blacks and Arabs.”
It also accuses Israel of war crimes, quotes Arnold Toynbee saying that “what the Zionist Jews did to the Palestinians is worse than what the Nazis did to the Jews,” speaks of “Israeli death squads” and so on.
Mostly very familiar accusations, of course (though I don’t know if I’ve heard the one about the ethnic bomb to kill “Blacks and Arabs” before), but apparently the Rev. Wright saw fit to pass them along to his congregation; and someone else (I can’t imagine who) has seen fit to make sure Jewish voters contemplating their options in the remaining Democratic primaries are aware of it. There are very few states where Jewish voters really make a difference, but Pennsylvania is one of them.
@ 37 & 38
Don Joe, what do you think has a greater effect on the lives of the black community as a whole, their own actions and decisions, or racism?
I think that the only possible reason for asking that question, while still acknowledging that racism exists, is to avoid having to actually do anything about racism.
Troll
I suggest you listgen to Rev Wright’s sermkons. I thkin, yo might be a lot more shocked by his call for self reliance than by the endless loop of clips being run on the media.
Isn;t it ironic, a Black leader speaks out for self relicane and gets dissed by the main stream?
@38
See, I believe racism exists, but I believe its effect on the black community is much, much smaller than anyone realizes. I believe it’s a scapegoat; a smoke screen for the real root of what ills the black community: Their own choices and actions. And as long as they, the black community as a whole buys into the belief that racism is holding them back, they’ll never move forward.
As someone who has studied very closely the effects of things like the drug war, and other forms of overzealous policing in black communities, I can tell you that you’re absolutely dead wrong here. And that’s not to mention the economic disparities that still exist and how those out for profit also often target black communities because they know there will be fewer legal repercussions.
“Why can’t we get together and figure out ways to move forward? Why does it always end up as a finger pointing match?”
Zap it is used to gain political power . Both parties . From a conservative it has been quite interesting to see how the Clinton Campaign has used it . No Hillary is not a racist , but it is not beneath a politician to use race however.
So uou hav race in the gotcha political game . With all this about Wright , do you think Hillary is upset about the racial problems facing this country still , or is she tap dancing and clicking her heals because of the bad publicity for Obama .
But say if the situation was different , and McCain was speaking against racial quota , if he is against them ? Hillary would be speaking to all the injustices the black community has had to endure and Affirmitive Action Is just an American attempt to a Just system .
Your right though , politics have hurt race relations in my opinion .
Lee, if you have studied this issue in-depth, then tell me, what percentage responsibility do you place with the black community themselves for the current situation they’re in? In other words, how much of it is action, choices, and behavior, and how much of it is racism. I hold, that it’s the perception of racism, more than racism itself, that holds back their community. I believe the key to success lies with themselves.
By the new leftist definition, a person of color cannot be racist regardless of how much crap they spew. Only white people are racist and, if you are white, you are a racist, regardless of any actions or lack of actions on your part. Just ask the Seattle School District.
And since I’m damned if I do and damned if I don’t. I’ll just say “fuck you all” and leave you with this:
Jeremiah Wright is just another Louis Farrakhan with his Marxist message covered with pseudo-Christian frosting instead of pseudo-Islamic frosting.
Wright’s latest blathering:
“(Jesus’) enemies had their opinion about Him,” Wright wrote in a eulogy of the late scholar Asa Hilliard in the November/December 2007 issue. “The Italians for the most part looked down their garlic noses at the Galileans.”
Wright continued, “From the circumstances surrounding Jesus’ birth (in a barn in a township that was under the Apartheid Roman government that said his daddy had to be in), up to and including the circumstances surrounding Jesus’ death on a cross, a Roman cross, public lynching Italian style. …
“He refused to be defined by others and Dr. Asa Hilliard also refused to be defined by others. The government runs everything from the White House to the schoolhouse, from the Capitol to the Klan, white supremacy is clearly in charge, but Asa, like Jesus, refused to be defined by an oppressive government because Asa got his identity from an Omnipotent God.”
@ 45
Lee, if you have studied this issue in-depth, then tell me, what percentage responsibility do you place with the black community themselves for the current situation they’re in?
Why does the answer to that question even matter? Better yet, if the answer is so important to you, then let’s resolve the issue of race relations, and then the answer won’t be so open to speculation.
Or, you could just keep making excuses for not dealing with the problem. Do you not see how even asking that question is, itself, an element of racism?
There was a picture of Rachel Corrie burning a copy of an American flag, her face contorted in rage, in front of a group of Palestinian children, and the caption of the picture was “Working for peace, or promoting hate?”
That’s how I view Rev. Wright, as a person who was more a force for divisiveness and hate, than peace.
“But you haven’t heard all of Rev. Wright’s sermons! You can’t judge him!,” you say. True. But I also haven’t heard all of Rev. Fred Phelps sermons, but would you criticize me for judging him?
@47, so are you saying I’m a racist for not having the same views on this issue as you? It’s racist and heresy to believe that racism, while it exists, is not the reason that the black community as a whole isn’t making greater headway in certain key areas?
And by the way, I know I’m supposed to get all defensive and become outraged at being called a racist, but it doesn’t bother me at all. To me, people who throw the sand of racism into the eyes of society is a greater harm to the black community than those asking hard, yet sincere question, like myself.
@45
Lee, if you have studied this issue in-depth, then tell me, what percentage responsibility do you place with the black community themselves for the current situation they’re in? In other words, how much of it is action, choices, and behavior, and how much of it is racism. I hold, that it’s the perception of racism, more than racism itself, that holds back their community. I believe the key to success lies with themselves.
As only a rough estimate (how can one truly quantify this?), I’d say that 80-90% of the problems within black communities comes from institutional racism (the drug war, problems within the justice system, economic injustices) and about 10-20% comes from leadership within the black community which exploits the problem for their own personal gain.
If you want some perspective on this, you should look back at alcohol prohibition and how it affected minority communities back then. One of the main people who railed against alcohol prohibition was Fiorello LaGuardia, the mayor of New York, who called it “a war on minorities” for how it did such significant damage to Italian, Irish, and other minority communities in New York. Were those communities themselves the ones deserving of blame, or was it an environment that was so conducive for getting young people wrapped up in an illegal industry?
I guess you guys don’t get it. Rev. Wright makes Obama a racist.
That’s the message. To thinking people, it’s a ridiculous assertion and clearly not true, but that’s the message they want to send. And the set of America’s voters is only intersected with and not a subset of the set of thinking people.
@48
That’s how I view Rev. Wright, as a person who was more a force for divisiveness and hate, than peace.
“But you haven’t heard all of Rev. Wright’s sermons! You can’t judge him!,” you say. True. But I also haven’t heard all of Rev. Fred Phelps sermons, but would you criticize me for judging him?
Please tell me you’re not comparing Jeremiah Wright with Fred Phelps. I know you’re not that dumb.
48 T
So you base your considered opinion about Rachel Corrie’s activities preventing the collective punishment of Palestinians by the IDF on a photograph? Do you also read the Star?
@49
To answer your question, no. I don’t think you’re a racist. But I do think you’re being an idiot. And idiots often make the racial divide in this country worse too.
I like the new wingut definition of “racism.” If you’re black and you mention white racism, it’s because you’re racist. Neat.
@ 49
@47, so are you saying I’m a racist for not having the same views on this issue as you? It’s racist and heresy to believe that racism, while it exists, is not the reason that the black community as a whole isn’t making greater headway in certain key areas?
No, on both counts. I believe I’ve said, twice now (well, three times with this comment), that the only possible reason for even asking that question is to avoid having to deal with the problem of racism.
To me, people who throw the sand of racism into the eyes of society is a greater harm to the black community than those asking hard, yet sincere question, like myself.
How do you justify this as a “sincere” question? The problem exists. You’ve acknowledged that the problem exists.
For some reason, you seem to think it worthwhile to try to decide whether or not the problem is worth solving, but you’re clearly not willing to ask the people who are most adversely affected by the problem. Why?
@53,
Let me answer that question with a question, Daddy Love. If you saw one video clip of me screaming “you god-damned fucking nigger!” at a black girl, would you say that I was a racist person, or would you say that you can’t really judge me by one single action? I suggest it’s the former. So why do you criticize me for judging Rachel Corrie for one single action?
Back to the post topic, sort of, Rev. Wright, to me, is Obama’s Dean scream. Right or wrong, people will judge Obama by his association with Rev. Wright. I don’t think things look good for him now. Like the commercial says, people judge you by the words you use. They also judge you by the words your friends use.
mccain is a southern baptist.
8D
Frankly, the whole “racism” topic is quite boring.
Racism is apparently something only white folks are capable of (aka Don Imus). Black folks cannot be racist because of their heritage. How convenient.
White folks walk on eggshells when talking about Black Folks. Black folks can call each other “niggers” and rap Hate Whitey lyrics and it is ok because it is their “heritage”. How convenient.
Obama wants it both ways. 90% of blacks are voting for him. How many have a clue about his background and politics?? How many are voting for him because he is black? It’s ok for Blacks to vote for a Black candidate merely because he is black. How convenient.
Race is an issue for lots of folks…black & white.
It’s politics.
I won’t vote for Obama because he is the most Liberal Senator as evidenced by his voting record. I also do not like the way he has conveniently orchestrated race to his benefit and he & his minions squeal whenever criticism comes his way under the veil of racism.
59 – See Stupes, this is how your peeps do.
I know you won’t go off on one of your own because the “tally” is not up to 60 or so, or is it higher now?
Go on Stupes, bark an order at Goldy!
Command me! LMAO!!!
@57
Let me answer that question with a question, Daddy Love. If you saw one video clip of me screaming “you god-damned fucking nigger!” at a black girl, would you say that I was a racist person, or would you say that you can’t really judge me by one single action? I suggest it’s the former. So why do you criticize me for judging Rachel Corrie for one single action?
Yes, you would be racist. The point of this post is that Reverend Wright has never in his life said anything that’s even close to the equivalent of that. How hard is this for you to understand?
@55
I like the new wingut definition of “racism.” If you’re black and you mention white racism, it’s because you’re racist. Neat.
Yeah, it’s very fascinating to watch, isn’t it?
Is OBAMA a racist?
He called his granny a typical White Person.
What if I call OBAMA a typical Black Person?
Can you imagine the outrage!
Bill Cosby defined “typical black person” by looking at children conceived out of wedlock, education and crime stats.
A black man, armed with facts, trying to change things by understanding the facts must first be acknowledged.
Yet Cosby was crucified by the pimps of poverty who have power because of the plight of many Black Americans…much of the plight due to their own CHOICES in life.
Ooops…I guess it is their heritage to have kids out of wedlock, impregnate multiple unmarried woman, not go to school, sell dope, shoot & rob each other & white folks.
Personally, I believe those are CHOICES. And until the focus shifts entirely to PERSONAL CHOICES rather than Black heritage mumbo-jumbo, there will continue to be stats like Cosby has often quoted.
Delbert
You call an article praising the life of Dr. Hilliard (after his death in August) to be evidence of racism? Wow. You wingnuts really are stretching.
Troll
You asked if racism or other problems within the black community are the causes of their problems. Let’s see if you can actually manage to understand a (slightly) nuanced explaination.
The two often feed each other.
Puddy (and others) have noted that a well-mannered black family gets more attention from store security than a similar white family. A white man jogging down the street draws no attention. A black man jogging down that same street draws inquisitive eyes and sometimes even police.
Over years, this could generate a bit of resentment. (If it were me, it would seriously piss me off.)
Angry, resentful people often make bad choices. People that feel hopeless sometimes act out in self-destructive ways. And, after being watched and singled out and lied to by people for years, a bit of paranoia isn’t an unreasonable response.
After I retired, I applied for various jobs. Not all of the folks I applied to offered to hire me. No surprise there. I actually landed an HR job, and I didn’t hire everyone that applied either.
But it’s easy understand how a black being turned down might think it was due to race. So many other things that are done to him seem to be for that reason, and let’s face it, it’s easier on the ego to believe that you’ve been turned down because of race than it is to believe that the other fellow was just better qualified.
And, of course, sometimes it is because of race, which just adds fuel to the fire.
Do I think that AIDS is a government plot to kill blacks? No, but then again the government never ran a study of untreated syphillus (while claiming to be giving treatment) on Italians.
Do I think that the Iraq war is a plot to kill off blacks? No, but the percentage of blacks in the military is greater than the overall percentage of blacks in civilian life, and that means a lot of those 4,000 casualties have been black.
Do I think that the government, through the police, are systematically trying to deprive blacks of their rights? No, but I can remember when that very thing was happening.
Do I understand black anger at the white majority? Not completely. I haven’t had to deal with it personally, so I really can’t, other than in an intellectual, distant manner.
But I can see that racism and the other problems facing blacks (and other minorities) today are interlinked. Is it somehow all the fault of white folks? Of course not. But we did more than our share to create these problems, we continue to reap the rewards of being white in this society, so perhaps we need to do more to help solve them.
He called his granny a typical White Person.
Do you understand the difference between a stereotype and an archetype?
@61, then you are saying you can judge an entire person from one sentence. That’s all I was trying to get from you. Thank you.
Out of curiousity, anyone know offhand the rates of marriage and out of wedlock childbirth amoung the black population pre and post “Great Society”?
@66
@61, then you are saying you can judge an entire person from one sentence. That’s all I was trying to get from you. Thank you.
Sometimes you can. Sometimes you can’t. It depends on the sentence. When Fred Phelps says that “God wants our soldiers to die in Iraq because they’re fighting to protect a nation that condones homosexuality,” I feel I can judge Fred Phelps as a complete nutcase who’s bigoted against gays. The whole point here is that nothing that Wright has said even comes close to demonstrating that he has bigotry against whites in general. He has mistrust in a government that has persecuted people of color throughout history.
@67,
I’ve heard current black out of wedlock births is somewhere in the 70 percent range. Not sure about past rates, but I’m sure it was higher. It sounds like you’re asking a question you already know the answer to.
@ 66
then you are saying you can judge an entire person from one sentence.
Actually, I don’t think so. In your hypothetical, there’s a lot of implied context, and you’re banking on that implied context. If, for example, you were delivering a line in a play, the statement wouldn’t reflect on you. Note, however, that significant a part of the explicit context is the fact that you were addressing your expletive to a child.
What you’ve done is come up with a cooked hypothetical that doesn’t relate to any of the remarks of Rev. Wright. Why? Again, it looks as though you’re looking for ways to justify not addressing the underlying problem.
@67, @69
Now what you two need to ask yourself is whether this is the cause of the problems in the black community, or if it’s a result of the problems in the black community. To take this a step further, when it comes to having children out of wedlock, what do you think Jeremiah Wright preaches to his congregation? Do you think this happens because of the religious influences in black neighborhoods, or in spite of them?
Good discussion. I have to go. Bottom line for me is that if I were a black kid in today’s America, and I bought into the belief that racism is so insidious and all-pervasive that I have almost next to no chance of getting anywhere in life, even if I apply myself, I probably would be discouraged to apply myself. It’s my view, that the over-hyped idea of America is racist is in itself directly and indirectly causing a lot of the ills in the black community. Whereas most people say racism exists, and racism is 99% of the problem. I say racism exists, but it’s a small percentage of the root problem.
@71
If you honestly think about those questions and come to honest answers, what you’re going to discover is that Jeremiah Wright does preach the value of marriage, and the value of being good parents, and the value of rejecting poor moral choices. But that over his 20+ years of preaching, he’s seen those messages fail because of a larger force that trumps his efforts.
1) Rev Wright is many things.
Fear mongerer
Racist (the fact that he heads an all black church is first indicator)
America Hater
Full of Shit
2) The reason racism will never get solved is:
Liberals use it to get votes
Liberals are so morally relativistic and Post hoc, ergo propter hoc that they reinvent racism every post to fit the deficit. “Institutional Racism” for example; However they fail to navigate the fact that ‘institutional racism’ fails to snare Asian Americans who consistently outperform the Evil Empire of white people.
I’m just waiting for Don Joe to call me racist or navigate answering with actual facts.
@74
So if I go to a church and there are only white people there, can I conclude that the head of the church is racist?
We were starting to have a pretty intelligent discussion here. Are you going to step it up, or did you come here to be an idiot?
Liberals are so morally relativistic and Post hoc, ergo propter hoc that they reinvent racism every post to fit the deficit. “Institutional Racism” for example; However they fail to navigate the fact that ‘institutional racism’ fails to snare Asian Americans who consistently outperform the Evil Empire of white people.
So, you’re saying that Asians are better than Europeans?
I’m just waiting for Don Joe to call me racist or navigate answering with actual facts.
Does answering with a rhetorical question count?
To me, if you take the comments and put the shoe on the other foot, 9/10 you get your answer.
Obama- “typical white person” Uses race identification, and broad brush to try to explain a singular event between two individuals.
Now, let’s say McCain, or Clinton, or Bush or Cheney etc etc had uttered those same words…”typical black person” or “typical jewish person” etc etc
The media, blogoshpere, radio et al would be pushing to be first in line to label the remarks as racist and insensitive.
Sen Obama has a problem, in that HE puffed up his “Christian” creds, and put forth Pastor Wright as his personal spritual advisor, mentor, etc etc.
If my pastor made comments like those of Pastor Wright, I would never return to that church. Obama is in full tilt spin mode.
@76 “So, you’re saying that Asians are better than Europeans?”
Guessing that he’s saying that it proves the efficacy of cultures that value educational achievement over ones that prefer being a victim.
@ 77
If McCain said that the typical Jewish person supports the State of Israeal, or if Clinton said that the typical Black person has experienced some form of racism in his or her life, do you think there’d be a backlash?
Doesn’t the truth value behind the substance of the “typical X person” remark matter?
@ 78
Guessing that he’s saying that it proves the efficacy of cultures that value educational achievement over ones that prefer being a victim.
So, it’s a culture thing, and not a race thing? How do you separate culture from race?
When you cite statistics like this, the best you can do is prove a correlation. You cannot prove causation.
@78
Guessing that he’s saying that it proves the efficacy of cultures that value educational achievement over ones that prefer being a victim.
So during the early 1900s, when Polish, Italian, Irish, and other immigrants were accused on not valuing education, did those immigrant communities change, or did the majority view of them change?
The difference between Asian-Americans and African-Americans lies more in how others view them than in how they actually function themselves. That’s the main point of this comment thread.
@79
I think it’s lazy (not what you said) to use a phrase like “typical X person”…
Especially in the context of what Obama was describing. If he wants to come out and describe his grandmothers own racial stereotypes etc etc. OK. But to paint with the broad stroke…………
@68
You are correct, you can tell a lot about a person from one sentence.
Wright: “The government runs everything from the White House to the schoolhouse, from the Capitol to the Klan…”
Nonsense from a Black preacher => respected leader of his community
Nonsense from a White preacher => Fred Phelps
The same condemnation for ass-hat statements that Phelps gets, should be heaped upon Wright’s shoulders.
@ 81
Of course not. See, when blacks start talking about racism, it can’t possibly be about anything that’s real, therefore they have a culture that actually prefers being a victim!
It amazes me that otherwise intelligent people will spout this kind of nonsense, all the while completely dismissing what African-Americans have to say about the subject. After all, we can’t trust them to, you know, tell us the truth, now, can we?
@83
First of all, the Government DOES run everything from the White House to the schoolhouse to the Capitol. Second, believing that there are racists in our government isn’t in the same galaxy of crazy as what Fred Phelps believes. This is why Jeremiah Wright has the respect of his community while Fred Phelps only has the respect of his insane family.
@84
Yep, we’re 85+ comments into this thread, we’ve had all kinds of people trying to call Wright a racist, and not a single person can point to a single statement in 20+ years of preaching that shows racial bigotry. It’s amazing the level of delusion that exists when it comes to dealing with the very real problems that exist in the black community (most of which are NOT caused by the community itself).
@86
“white America, the US of KKK-A”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
I don’t know anyone who doesn’t immediately think of the GOP when asked which is the most racist political party. And the free pass that McCain gets for associating with dingbats who proclaim that the Catholic church is a whore – and by association I mean standing on the stage with the guy, campaigning with him and saying he’s proud of him – well it’s beyond me. As long as the Catholics find out and bet money they will, then McCain’s got some explaining to do – AGAIN.
@75. I’m saying in a demographic comprised of
(Chicago)Races, 2005 Data (% change from 2000):
Black or African American: 34.93% (-1.84%)
White: 30.32% (-1.00%)
Hispanic or Latino: 28.80% (+2.78%)
Other race: 19.88% (+6.30%)
Asian: 4.76% (+0.41%)
Two or more races: 1.62% (-1.30%)
American Indian: 0.17% (-0.19%)
Native Hawaiian / Other Pacific Islander: 0.07% (+0.01%)
To have a race exclusive church where where the message is that “the government runs the KKK” is probably not by chance.
But we wouldn’t want evidence or facts to confuse the issue now, would we?
@89
To have a race exclusive church
It’s not a race exclusive church. And second, I guarantee you there are churches in Chicago that are overwhelmingly white.
@87
He’s referring to white racists, which is very clear from the video you posted. So by your logic, pointing out racism in the black community must make you a racist then. Well done, genius.
@89
To have a race exclusive church where where the message is that “the government runs the KKK” is probably not by chance.
And you’re right. It’s not by chance. Many people in the black community actually believe this. Yes, it’s bullshit. Yes, it’s paranoid. But it’s not racist. Many people in the black community believe in these conspiracy theories, but also refuse to believe that whites are inferior to them, or shouldn’t have the same rights, etc.
@90
He says “in white America, the US of KKK-A”
Well let me see, by his statement, all white people in America are racists and part of the KKK.
By the way, I don’t look at this country, my church, work or anywhere in terms of “white xxxxx, black xxxx” etc etc
Again a broad brush statement about an entire race of people to describe the actions or interactions of a few. If he wants to go after the KKK great!!! I’m in line for that!
How does this make me racist?
@80
So, it’s a culture thing, and not a race thing? How do you separate culture from race?
“Culture is everything race was not, and race is seen to be what culture was not; given, unchangeable biology,” (Visweswaran, p. 72).”
This statement goes to the heart conservative viewpoint, a change in culture is what is needed, because the difference between successful black Americans and those who are forever latched to the liberal promise of the botomless government teet(see New Orleans) is the culture.
Further bolstering the claim is the adoption of the ‘hip hop’ culture by caucasian youths. I’ve never seen a study but I’m quite confident that white kids who adopt the hip hop culture will end up with lower earnings and educational achievements than their non hip hop adopting counterparts.
But this is only a correlation, it doesn’t actually ‘mean’ anything, right Don?
Being culturally biased is a socially accepted survival strategy of businesses and furthermore an accepted strategy of Evolution *gasp. You sure as hell won’t find the top brass at microsoft, google, or any NASDAQ company speaking like they do on Yo MTV Raps.
Visweswaran, Kamala. (March, 1998) Race and the Culture of Anthropology. American Anthropologist. p. 70-83. American Anthropological
Lee says:
“It’s amazing the level of delusion that exists when it comes to dealing with the very real problems that exist in the black community (most of which are NOT caused by the community itself).”
C’mon Lee.. I said the problems in the Black Community are caused by INDIVIDUAL CHOICES…not the “Black Community”.
INDIVIDUAL FREE CHOICES.
Keep making excuses Lee.
How many black friends do you have Lee and how much time do you spend with them?
Have you ever lived in a Black neighborhood?
Maybe you ought to change your name to LeeRoy and spend some time in da ‘hood.
Then spend some time with successful black entrepreneurs who went from rags to riches thru hard work & sacrifice.
INDIVIDUAL FREE CHOICES Lee.
At some point, folks who have been told over & over by Black Leaders that they have no chance due to racism, will see the self-fulfilling prophecy of being lead into dispair and hopelessness. They will reject the pimps of poverty like Jackson, Sharpton et al and make choices to compete & be good citizens. Only then will racism melt away. When it is being used as an enabling club to excuse POOR INDIVIDUAL CHOICES and encourage a mindset of victimization….the problem will self-perpuate.
@92
Well let me see, by his statement, all white people in America are racists and part of the KKK.
No, he’s not saying that. Do you even understand what the term “out of context” even means? Do you really think Jeremiah Wright believes that all white people in America are part of the KKK? Are you really that stupid?
By the way, I don’t look at this country, my church, work or anywhere in terms of “white xxxxx, black xxxx” etc etc
You’re not a minority. As a Jew, I often look at the things that go on in this country (and especially in our foreign affairs) through that lens because understanding those dynamics helps understand the history. The fact that you don’t look at this country in terms of race is the biggest reason why we have to explain it to you when people like Jeremiah Wright say the things they do. What kind of an idiot says they don’t pay attention to something, then criticizes the people who do for understanding it better?
Again a broad brush statement about an entire race of people to describe the actions or interactions of a few. If he wants to go after the KKK great!!! I’m in line for that!
And that’s what he’s doing. You’re the one taking his quote out of context.
How does this make me racist?
As I said before, believing that Jeremiah Wright is a racist does not mean one is a racist. But it probably means that someone is an idiot, or extremely clueless about black America.
@93
Further bolstering the claim is the adoption of the ‘hip hop’ culture by caucasian youths. I’ve never seen a study but I’m quite confident that white kids who adopt the hip hop culture will end up with lower earnings and educational achievements than their non hip hop adopting counterparts.
But this is only a correlation, it doesn’t actually ‘mean’ anything, right Don?
Do you have any more imaginary facts to throw at us to support your imaginary conclusions? I take it you have no interest in being serious here, then?
@94
C’mon Lee.. I said the problems in the Black Community are caused by INDIVIDUAL CHOICES…not the “Black Community”.
INDIVIDUAL FREE CHOICES.
No, they’re not. And the drug war is the best example of this. Drug use and drug dealing are individual choices, yet despite the fact that whites and blacks use and deal drugs in the same proportions, blacks are often 10-20 times more likely to go to jail for it. So no, you’re wrong. It’s not about individual choices. It’s about an unbalanced system. And it’s even broader than just the drug war.
I don’t believe Obama should take heat for Wright. Wright is very outspoken and angry, I have a few African American friends who are also angry, also have a few that are angry at their own people too. But comments like this further spread the fear that there is no hope for the Black Community:
“Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run. No black man will ever be considered for president, no matter how hard you run, Jesse Jackson, and no black woman can ever be considered for anything outside what she can give with her body.” Jeremiah Wright 2006
He is saying NO BLACK MAN/WOMAN WILL EVER, and that hurts! That is saying he sees no hope and since he sees no hope, why bother trying?
@98
Don’t you find it cool that one of his congregants is close to proving him wrong? :)
@99 – Yes I do!!!! I am proud to be backing Obama, not just for his policies, but yes for WHO he is, he will be the one to finally break the threshold.
@100
I’m looking forward to voting for him as well. He wasn’t my first choice in the Democratic field, but he has run an inspiring campaign and has managed to keep winning without getting as negative as the people trying to attack him. I’m impressed by that.
@95
I like you Lee ( not that it matters )
But my point is, and a root problem in this country is, that until we stop looking at problems in terms of “black america”, “white america” etc etc, racial divisions will continue to exist. What is “black america”? How is that defined and different from United States of America? Because I live in the USA…..
I too try to “walk in someone’s shoes” to understand where they are coming from, form their opinions etc etc. A good way to evolve one’s own opinions and beliefs.
I don’t claim to have answers or genius status, only an opinion, if that makes me an idiot, o well.
@101 – His demeanor and his unwillingness to “stoop” to the nasty playing field most politicians stoop to, shows his character in such a great light. I am amazed I can actually say I think we have an “honest” politician in Obama. I’m sure I will be pointed at and laughed at by many, that there is no such thing as an honest politician, but I believe Obama is by far more honest than the majority both dem and rep!
Lee–
**U.S. of KKK-A!
**Bill Clinton done us like he done Monica Lewinsky. He was Ridin’ Dirty!
**America’s Chickens are coming home to roost (hate America sermon after 9/11)
**Hillary Ain’t Nevah Been called a N*****!
**God Damn America, God Damn America!
**America created AIDS to kill black people.
Don’t you feel some of these Wright quotes have racial overtones?? How about Hannah’s quote??
Wright is a pimp of poverty. He gets his power and self-esteem from preaching hateful, divisive messages filled with hopelessness. The Black Community is pounded over & over again with “you cannot be successful”. Awful.
Lee said:
“Drug use and drug dealing are individual choices, yet despite the fact that whites and blacks use and deal drugs in the same proportions, blacks are often 10-20 times more likely to go to jail for it.”
Please give me the source of your “statistics” Lee…..and please don’t quote the Daily Kos.
Keep in mind that many Drug Criminals have prior convictions that impact their sentences.
Did your “stats” take this into account??
Perhaps you ought to go visit some of the imprisoned Black Drug Dealers you pretend to be soooooooooo concerned about how unjustly they were treated Lee. And look at their Rap Sheets too….just for full disclosure.
Report back to us.
Taking the focus off INDIVIDUAL FREE CHOICES and on victimization seems to be the only way LEFTISTS can keep the Blacks on the team.
So how much time have you spent this month one-on-one with Black Friends Lee??
ZERO??
I can see Lee pulling a George Castanza (Seinfeld). Remember the episode where George was so desperate to impress his new Black boss that he randomly found a Black family to befriend and invited himself over to their house for a movie.
It was hysterical.
Lee Castanza!
@ 93
“Culture is everything race was not, and race is seen to be what culture was not; given, unchangeable biology,” (Visweswaran, p. 72).”
This statement goes to the heart conservative viewpoint, a change in culture is what is needed, because the difference between successful black Americans and those who are forever latched to the liberal promise of the botomless government teet(see New Orleans) is the culture.
Oh. My. God. The article you’ve referenced by Visweswaran was a critique of Franz Boas’ ideas. Go look up Franz Boas, and then see if you really want to use that quote to bolster your argument.
I’ll give you a clue, though. People have tried to come up with a biological definition of race in such a way that matches how we use the term in society. They haven’t been able to do so. Consider: from a strictly biological standpoint, Is Barak Obama white or black?
@96 Do you have any more imaginary facts to throw at us to support your imaginary conclusions? I take it you have no interest in being serious here, then?
So Lee, the fact that you didn’t deny the basic observation, namely that culture is changable and race is not, is it so hard to accept that what is occuring in society is a rejection of the culture by indicators of societal success (education level, salary level, in tact family structure)?
Rather than accurately criticize behavior for its inability to produce fruitful results, the philosophy of your ilk is to change the societal measures of success (See Lowering WASL passing Score). This is why the right, rightly so continues to use the phrase “Dumbing down of America”
Not only does everyone lose, those you were trying to help don’t benefit.
Is it so hard to believe that the rise and acceptance of the ‘hip hop culture’ characterized by affluence and notoriety without work is nothing more than a parody of the American dream defined as starting from nothing and becoming successful through hard work and innovation.
If my hypothesis, based on an observation (can you say scientific method anyone) is so flawed, disprove it.
@102
But my point is, and a root problem in this country is, that until we stop looking at problems in terms of “black america”, “white america” etc etc, racial divisions will continue to exist.
To some extent, this is true. But in other ways, if we ignore the racial divides that still do exist, they can get worse. Our annoyance with some of the things that Jeremiah Wright has said (and believe me, I get annoyed with anyone who delves into silly conspiracy theories) is not an excuse to ignore this fact.
What is “black america”? How is that defined and different from United States of America? Because I live in the USA…..
Black America is definitely something of a short-hand term. But it refers to communities that remain isolated, impoverished and haven’t been able to improve their lot much since the end of the Jim Crow era.
I too try to “walk in someone’s shoes” to understand where they are coming from, form their opinions etc etc. A good way to evolve one’s own opinions and beliefs.
Good. And I encourage you to talk to people in the black community about this. I met Puddybud last night at DL. He’s someone who, as an African-American, will tell you that what I’m talking about is real. Blacks in this country deal with racism and are forced to deal with a bi-polar reality much moreso than whites.
I don’t claim to have answers or genius status, only an opinion, if that makes me an idiot, o well.
As I’ve said before, you’re one of the most thoughtful and sharp conservatives who comes here. But if you actually believe that Wright thinks that all white people are in the KKK, you’re sure as hell not demonstrating that right now.
@104
Don’t you feel some of these Wright quotes have racial overtones?? How about Hannah’s quote??
Sure, but saying something with racial overtones doesn’t mean you’re a racist. In the case of Wright, he’s coming from a perspective of feeling persecuted because of his race. That doesn’t make him a racist.
The Black Community is pounded over & over again with “you cannot be successful”. Awful.
If you think that this is a theme in Jeremiah Wright’s sermons, you’re even more clueless than I thought.
Please give me the source of your “statistics” Lee…..and please don’t quote the Daily Kos.
Are you kidding?
For fuck’s sake, man, get yourself in the ballpark of a clue here.
@106
So Lee, the fact that you didn’t deny the basic observation, namely that culture is changable and race is not, is it so hard to accept that what is occuring in society is a rejection of the culture by indicators of societal success (education level, salary level, in tact family structure)?
Why would I accept something that I know isn’t the truth? The reality is that the rejection is in large part a reaction to the situation. When you factor for socio-economic background, whites and blacks make much of the same choices. But when you have an environment where one group is considerably more likely to go to jail for those same choices, the effects are widespread. More young men growing up without fathers. Less breadwinners in the community. Less income to invest in the local community.
Rather than accurately criticize behavior for its inability to produce fruitful results, the philosophy of your ilk is to change the societal measures of success (See Lowering WASL passing Score). This is why the right, rightly so continues to use the phrase “Dumbing down of America”
Not only does everyone lose, those you were trying to help don’t benefit.
And if you actually know more about what I’ve written in the past, you’d know that I often criticize liberals for refusing to acknowledge the role that “tough on crime” anti-drug bullshit has on these communities, but instead focusing on things that only appear to make the problem better.
Is it so hard to believe that the rise and acceptance of the ‘hip hop culture’ characterized by affluence and notoriety without work is nothing more than a parody of the American dream defined as starting from nothing and becoming successful through hard work and innovation.
And on that same note, I criticize the right for believing in bullshit like this too. White kids want to be rich and lazy too. All of them. The children of all races who learn to be responsible tend to be the ones with good adult role models around them. What I’m saying here is that the drug war and the effect it has on black communities especially, drains that pool.
If my hypothesis, based on an observation (can you say scientific method anyone) is so flawed, disprove it.
So you make up some bullshit statistic with no evidence, and the onus is on me to disprove it? Are you out of your mind?
If my hypothesis……
Well, stop right there. First you have to have a hypothesis. Come back when you can formulate one.
Proud To Be An Ass posted: “David Neiwert at Orcinus blog writes: “When white people insist on making every other black person bear some kind of responsibility for the behavior of a small segment of their community, people who only share with them their racial identity — the kind of responsibility that whites repudiate on their own behalf for white miscreants — that is nothing if not “identity politics” incarnate. And as long as it persists, there’s going to be a racial divide in America that will not be bridged.””Amen.
Hence my question to FricknFrack, Jennie Tlazoteotl and Horse Whisperer. Were you taught to dislike blacks? It’s a simple question? Why are y’all afraid to answer it. I know what some people at DL thought last night.
I’ve read everyone’s post up to Puddy at 111:
Lot’s of passionate answers from both sides of the proverbial aisle. I’d like to propose this question to the thread:
Setting aside all the implications of history, persons, and wrong doings and accepting that in this moment in history it is what it is: what do we do collectively as a nation to move the process of race relations forward so no segment of our population suffers the same inequities as the black community?
GBS,
1. Promoting policies to lower unemployment.
2. Reverse social policies that are making us a nation of haves too much and “lost its” or “never hads”. This would include taxing, spending, and other policies that favor the rich, subsidize the rich, and coddle the rich.
3. Cut military spending by 76% (in the spirit of 1776) and use that dough for education, infrastructure, energy policy, health care. $350 billion a year can go a long way.
4. Terminate our “war on drugs” immediately.
5. Verifiable acts of discrimination should be punished swiftly and severely.
For starters.
@109 What I’m saying here is that the drug war and the effect it has on black communities especially, drains that pool
Welcome to the conservative party. A good way to fix that would be to stop illegal immigration and put our military on the southern border to stop the massive influx of drugs and people. I hate to break this to you Lee, but hispanics are fast becoming ‘the new black’, without the excuse of slavery on which to hang their hats. As such, African americans will be out learned and out earned by Hispanics in a blink of an eye.
GBS: To answer your question:
The news comes on at 5-7 PM each night. The Cable News displays news 24/7. They focus on the heinous. They focus on the ugly. The promote race issues. They embellish the story when possible. Do you all remember the OJ White Bronco event? How about Reginald Denny getting a brick to the head.?A real helicopter pilot would have buzzed the perps to chase them away with his rotor airfoil or tail steering blades. Instead they just showed the event.
When a rape or stabbing or killing occurs they focus on the racial makeup. If it’s a minority perp they run to the neightborhood, they want a comment. They focus on some of the toothless, worst speaking, worst dressed individuals, and give them their Andy Warhol 15 minutes of fame. Then they try to say this is aberrant behavior when the perp probably has a ream pack rap sheet. This is what makes engaging the races difficult to do.
@114
Welcome to the conservative party. A good way to fix that would be to stop illegal immigration and put our military on the southern border to stop the massive influx of drugs and people.
Putting our military on the southern border won’t solve shit. You can’t stop the influx of drugs coming in from Mexico. And the violence that results from our attempts to do so is what causes the massive influx of people coming in from Mexico. When you understand this, maybe I’ll take you seriously.
@113
As someone who focuses more on the justice system side of things, I’d also suggest things like investing in better prison release re-integration programs that help people get back on their feet after serving time, and also to remove a lot of the barriers that exist for voting, getting financial aid for school, and finding jobs for those with drug convictions on their record.
GBS
One thing we need to do is understand that there is no single solution.
And if we’re just going to answer your question, then we have already succeeded, although obviously that isn’t really what you meant.
What do we do about the store security guard that follows the black family around? Does it make a difference if the security guard is also black?
What do we do to help black students succeed in school, and how do we address the problem of other black students exerting pressure on successful students to stop “acting white”?
Is there really anything we can do about the number of angry young black men, growing up without a father figure, and using the number of children they themselves have fathered as a point of pride among their peers?
One thing is certain. This problem won’t be solved in our lifetimes. That used to be used as an excuse for not doing anything, and we must avoid that trap.
Some things we can do.
While we can agree that taking drugs is a stupid thing to do, we can stop taking young black men who have made a stupid mistake (I use that term because that is how young white men who have used drugs are described) and turning them into career criminals.
We can hold to both the letter and the spirit of equal opportunity laws in whatever we do. I point this out because I know that there are still people that try to circumvent equal housing laws (my area of expertise) and I’d be surprised if there weren’t similar problems in almost every other field as well.
We may not be able to end racism or the effects of racism, but we can insist that in whatever areas we have control or influence, that it not be tolerated.
That can be easier said than done. What do you do when your boss, the person that decides your next pay raise, makes a racial joke?
I’ve turned away clients that wanted me to skirt the equal housing laws, but it wans’t easy to do, knowing that I’m turning down a contract worth thousands of dollars that could go to feeding my family and paying my mortgage, and that someone else will take that contract.
As a culture, we’re experiencing a process where racism becomes less and less acceptable, and that process must continue. Today, we’re finally at the point in that process where we have a viable Black Presidential candidate, and that’s an exciting place to be.
But the process is a long way from complete, and could still be reversed. It will remain a constant struggle to make progress, and if anyone really thinks we’ll see complete equality and justice in our lifetimes, well, I pray you’re correct, but I wouldn’t bet on it, even with long odds.
PTBAA:
1) That’s nice. The people have to possess the skills. Inner city school systems prepare people for the real world?
2) Wow The Edwards Two Americas “Blueprint” repackaged. Can you name me what poor person or middle class person who created a corporation? Class warfare is still alive and well in your mind.
3) Cut defense spending. Wow where have I heard, read or felt that before. Do you realize many of the conveniences you enjoy in your home were defense projects that had commercial applications. I agree cut defense largess, but lets get rid of PORK PROJECTS first…
4) War on drugs… So I assume PTBAA you have no problems with your teenage child doing cocaine, hashish or other potent drugs? Notice I didn’t mention MJ? Why? Too hard to control. It’s prevalent everywhere. My son told me a story. The stoners would smoke outside behind the school. This happened to be where the fresh air intakes for the school A/C systems were. Guess what happened? Funny isn’t it…?
5) Yeah, I’m glad you said verifiable acts, not perceived or someone thought so.
PTBAA:
Thanks for the thoughtful input. I feel this was really the spirit of Obama’s speech regarding Rev. Wright’s comments.
What we need in this country is more constructive dialogue and ideas and less finger pointing.
For the most part I agree with all of your ideas in principle I’d have to dig dipper to see if the numbers work out, particularly on DoD spending amounts. It’ll be a while before we could knock ¾ of our military budget, but it’s an excellent goal.
@119
War on drugs… So I assume PTBAA you have no problems with your teenage child doing cocaine, hashish or other potent drugs?
That’s irrelevant. The reason why teenagers have such easy access to drugs today is because the supply is controlled by people willing to break the law already. If dangerous drugs like cocaine and herion were available to adults only through a doctor-approved registry for addicts, you could make it much easier to keep them out of the hands of young people.
Also, hashish and marijuana are pretty much the same thing. In fact, marijuana in this area is generally far more potent than hashish.
John Barelli, you would have fit right into our DL debate last night.
One thing we need to do is understand that there is no single solution.
– I 100% agree. The reason I am asking the ladies about their parental education will become evident when one of them answer
And if we’re just going to answer your question, then we have already succeeded, although obviously that isn’t really what you meant.
– John no one has succeeded at much at all. Take the vitriol from Clueless Idiot or Blatantly Obvious towards me over selecting Obama. SeattleJew and I had an interesting conversation last night at DL over my Obama selection.
What do we do about the store security guard that follows the black family around? Does it make a difference if the security guard is also black?
– 1) Many blacks will steal at a heartbeat. But then again so will Winona Ryder.
– 2) This unfortunately is a real perception because many blacks feel the man owes them something. It is the chip on their shoulder syndrome. Dammit I’m getting mine.
– 3) Having worked in retail, we would have tape reviews. I’m sure you know what that means.
– 4) While they are following the black family around they miss the other people thieving cuz their focus is on “them peeples”.
What do we do to help black students succeed in school, and how do we address the problem of other black students exerting pressure on successful students to stop “acting white”?
– Wow John bingo. I said last night kids have to be shown there is a value to their education. Inner city run down schools, teachers who are out of there at the last bell, sometimes out of the lot faster than the kids on their bus… Also being called a “poindexter” should be a valued thing. But as I said before which was attacked by your side here John, the glamorization of the drug culture in TV and Movies (make a fast buck so you too can have bling-bling) or the MTV culture where you can write a rap song about doing some “bitch so she is yo ho” and you see all the girls barely dressed shaking the fine behinds to that song doesn’t help the “poindexter” argument for the world.
One last thing John. When you ask a radical muslim what they hate about America guess what it is? Our loose culture. You all can scream and shout, but how many radical muslims DO YOU PERSONALLY KNOW?
Is there really anything we can do about the number of angry young black men, growing up without a father figure, and using the number of children they themselves have fathered as a point of pride among their peers?
– Not yet. It’s glorified in this culture. It’s news. Remember the Sean Kemp story where he had 10 children by 9 different women in different cities? Or how about the glorification of Wilt Chamberlain and his claim of doing 20,000 women before he expired (probably of tiredness)? Puddy remembers.
One thing is certain. This problem won’t be solved in our lifetimes. That used to be used as an excuse for not doing anything, and we must avoid that trap.
Some things we can do.
While we can agree that taking drugs is a stupid thing to do, we can stop taking young black men who have made a stupid mistake (I use that term because that is how young white men who have used drugs are described) and turning them into career criminals.
You mean the “law and order folk who run for city and county government will have to change their stripes?
We can hold to both the letter and the spirit of equal opportunity laws in whatever we do. I point this out because I know that there are still people that try to circumvent equal housing laws (my area of expertise) and I’d be surprised if there weren’t similar problems in almost every other field as well.
We may not be able to end racism or the effects of racism, but we can insist that in whatever areas we have control or influence, that it not be tolerated.
– We can teach successive generations that everyone is valuable and not to hate by sight. Evaluate what you see and hear and realize not everyone is like the perp.
That can be easier said than done. What do you do when your boss, the person that decides your next pay raise, makes a racial joke?
– Say excuse me but isn’t that against company policy?
I’ve turned away clients that wanted me to skirt the equal housing laws, but it wans’t easy to do, knowing that I’m turning down a contract worth thousands of dollars that could go to feeding my family and paying my mortgage, and that someone else will take that contract.
As a culture, we’re experiencing a process where racism becomes less and less acceptable, and that process must continue. Today, we’re finally at the point in that process where we have a viable Black Presidential candidate, and that’s an exciting place to be.
– Then John why are people publicly saying they’ll run and vote opposite their party?
But the process is a long way from complete, and could still be reversed. It will remain a constant struggle to make progress, and if anyone really thinks we’ll see complete equality and justice in our lifetimes, well, I pray you’re correct, but I wouldn’t bet on it, even with long odds.
Lee, registry for addicts? I have to think about that one. It seems simplistic.
John Barelli: Do you remember the last thing the hijackers did before they used the planes?
They visited Nevada brothels. I asked my muslim friends about this act.
Guess what they said?
While I appreciate the blogs on Pastor Wright’s sermon comments I think there is a critical aspect which makes his comments correct, based on his early upbringings. Dr. Rev. Wright was born September 1941 during the era in American history called “the Forgotten Years of the Negro Revolution” which took place on the tail end of World War II (1939 – 1945). This period began the real civil rights movement and is why Obama has become the new voice of African Americans.
During this critical time after WWII respect for White Americans and the hope that they would become color blind faded as the black soldiers returned home to even more abuse and the segregated public facilities. After the war the Negroes felt that they had demonstrated their love for and dedication to the American dream only to find those hopes crushed when they returned to a society who treated them even worst because of fears that the nigger would now think he was equal to the white man. This assumption caused certain whites to treat the nigger even worst than before the war. I use the term nigger because this is how Dr. Wright was first described as a human being. Such descriptions carried with it the notion that he was not fully human but a subset, or seed of a lesser creature. This made it justifiable by the majority to treat him and his people with little respect, dignity, and compassion. As a young man Dr. Wright joined the US Marines and later the US Navy where such treatment continued, supported by the US government. Through passage of legislations he would later be described as a Negro, colored, black, and during the last part of the 1970’s African American.
Dr. Wright and Negroes (classified during the mid 1950’s) of his time endured a vast array of mistreatment because of their race. The Negro had no rights, no freedoms, and worst of all no legal representation for which they could even dream of defending themselves within a system designed to minimize his presence and contributions.
Fastforwarding………..
Dr. Wright is a product of his time and this is all he can see even with his accomplishments. Dr. Wright is a product of the 40’s, 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s movement for equality and although young people think they have arrived via their integrated schools he still sees the injustice and have no problem speaking out against and reminding young black that the jury is still out. He expresses his views within the only venue he has, which was afforded the Negro from the time of slavery – the black church. You will never hear a Dr. Wright use racial overtures outside his immediate congregation because the black church served as the only townhouse meeting place for blacks. The black church is a place of political truth, discipline, and balance. It’s the only place blacks can express their viewpoints on society without fear of being imprisoned or lynched. This is one reason the separation of church and state never applied 100% to the black community.
Fastforwarding…
Dr. Wright and his era is one of the main reasons why so many blacks are voting for Obama. The fact that Obama is black (or bi-racial) has less to do with it than what he represents. Obama represents the typical mentality of the average black American. Obama allows African Americans the opportunity to come out from under the liberal 60’s mentality of the Rev Wrights, Jesse Jackson’s, Al Sharptons’ and others of the liberal movement for civil freedom.
While these people have accomplished great deeds on behalf of all Americans as a whole they represent a time of government support and dependency. In most cases these black leaders were picked by the liberal white establishment to represent black Americans and as a result black Americans have had to live under their banner of liberal social policies for the past 40 – 50 years. It also explains the sometimes apparent lack of black leadership in the black community. If the leaders are picked from the outside they will not be fully respected on the inside.
Obama represent the average black American who believes in self help and the fact that the white man can not hold you back unless you allow him. With his bi-racial DNA Obama is representative of the commonality among blacks and whites. Obama is the bridge black America has been waiting for to cross over from the liberal dependent thinking of the pass to the conservative self-dependency and economic planning of the future.
Obama is the new voice of black Americans. George Washington Carver and Frederick Douglas were the intellectual liberators. Dr. King, Jesse Jackson, and Rosa Parks were the social liberators. The sounds of Motown were the musical liberator and now black America is looking to Obama as the economic liberator. Obama will take away every social excuse young blacks use for failure.
If African Americans were voting on racial lines they would have come out in larger numbers when Jesse Jackson was running a few years ago. They would be on board with Alan Keys. African Americans votes are not base on race but on hope.
The irony is that most blacks do not expect their lives to be better under an Obama administration, just as most South African blacks did not expect their lives to improve rapidly under Nelson Mandela. African Americans understands that it’s going to take more than four to eight years to improve their economic and social status in America but an Obama administration will be a great start.
African Americans understand that an Obama administration is a two edged sword. If he does a poor job it will set them back socially and economically close to 100 years. If Obama does well, he will not be given the total credit for his efforts. With this in mind most African Americans are expecting nothing more from Obama than a face in the white house which look like theirs and for him to strengthen the bridge to a better tomorrow.
They not only want him to succeed, they need him to succeed. At the same time they understand that Hillary Clinton could be a great asset and deep down in the empty spaces of their guts they are hoping for reconciliation between the Obama\Clinton camps which would lead to a winning ticket in the fall.
The video excerpts of Rev Wright’s sermon are supported by most African Americans but not for its content. It’s supported because they understand that it’s time to move on and Rev Wright is a reminder that the social policies of the Wright era has come to an end. It’s time to cross the bridge. Obama understands that black Americans are not fascinated by his race. He understands what he represents and he’s walking a tightrope because he knows that support from African Americans can change like the wind.
Disclaimer: The above comments are my own and do not represent the African American community as a whole.
WOW! More great input and ideas.
John, you’re absolutely right, there are no quick fixes and no single answer. That’s why vast majority of this nation must come together to fix this problem.
When America mobilizes to address a problem, any problem or threat, we know our synergy is unstoppable, unparalleled, and unequaled in human history.
In my humble little opinion, everything hinges on education. Barak is a fine example of what happens when someone gets an excellent education. He’s making more coin than any of us on this blog.
Puddybud is someone I would put up as proof of what an education can do for person. Puddybud has told me he knows what it means to go without, to just scrape by. Without an education, I think he’d agree with me his circumstances would be quite different today.
We live in the Information Age, for our own national security and prosperity you’d think funding public education to at least a 4 year degree would be a top priority.
When I say funding an education, I mean real funding that addresses the issue Puddy brings up at 119. Are students in predominately poor areas getting prepared for the 21st century?
Education is the long term solution to the problem that took more than two centuries to create in this country. Collectively, we can unleash the creative potential to solve this challenge, as with all challenges we’ve stared down in our history.
Lee @ 109
In addition to your comments, I can point out two problems with screwed’s reasoning. The first is that there is no biological basis for any social concept of race. People have tried to come up with a biological definition, and every definition fails to capture what we generally refer to as race.
In the absence of a biological definition of race, any attempt to separate race from culture is little more than a game of semantics. The most accurate and functional definition of the black “race” of people is people who have grown up in black culture. The end result is still a situation in which one group in society regards another group in society as inferior. Not surprisingly, the supposedly inferior subgroup is a minority. The only difference is that we now use the word “culture” to differentiate the inferior minority rather than the word “race”.
Second, even if we accept the premise that one can reasonably separate race from culture, we cannot forget the fact that, in America, black culture is a sub-culture. It exists within, and is largely defined by, the broader American culture.
If we forget the fact that black culture is a sub-culture, you end up having to posit the bizarre existence of a culture in which people actually desire to be victims (c.f. I-Burn’s comment above). Again, what we end up with is still a form of oppression. One is forced, by screwed’s absurd logic, to completely disregard what black people have to say about how the broader culture treats them, and that is, itself, a form of racism. Why can’t we trust black people to be telling the truth? They’re human beings, yet screwed’s argument treats them as if they’re lab rats.
Way back up at comment 93, screwed quotes Kamala Visweswaran. She’s an anthropologist at one of the Texas universities (I forget which). She, in fact, argues for a position quite different from the one suggested by the quote that screwed took out of context. The article screwed quotes is a critique of Franz Boas’ views. Do a web search form Franz Boas, and tell us what you find. That result will tell you, quite literally, everything you need to know about the argument that screwed is trying to peddle here.
PacMan,
Thank you. I know you opened the window to your soul a little bit for all of us to look at and examine your view of America.
We all tend to see our would through our own lenses and how you see things is not the way all of us see the same problem.
But that is exactly the beauty of opening the door of discussion; your prospective mixed with mine, gives me a better view of what we are facing as a nation.
For me you made great points regarding Jesse Jackson and Alan Keyes and what the mindset is among the black voting population. With respect to your disclaimer that is.
One of the reasons I’m throwing my support behind Barak Obama is along the same lines you have mentioned that he is the bridge. Not just for black Americans, I also see him as a “bridge” to the broader problems we face in the War On Terror. No doubt his name is Muslim, there will be no denying in the Muslim world that at this particular time in American history, while we are embroiled in a fundamental war with radical Islam, America elects a “black” man with a Muslim name will do more to birding a gap between America and the Muslim world than either Hillary Clinton or John McCain could ever hope to achieve no matter how well intentioned or patriotic each of them may be.
@ 111
Were you taught to dislike blacks?
I wasn’t addressed, but I’ll answer with an equivocal “I don’t know.” When I was young, my folks took me down to Vera’s Steak House in Milwaukee on Saturday nights. The Steak House doesn’t exist anymore, but, back then, a local church did a radio program in a rather large room in the back of the restaurant. On most nights we were there, my parents and I were the only white people in the room. I think the point was so that I wouldn’t grow up disliking black people.
But, then, there are other members of my family who didn’t have such, shall we say, forward-looking views on such matters. How influenced was I, for example, by some of the comments of my grandfather? I don’t know. I do recall getting a rather sickly feeling in my stomach whenever he would make a prejudicial comment, but how much of that did I end up accepting without question? Frankly, I really don’t know.
And, as you point out, there’s the whole media treatment of issues. A friend of mine is rather fond of times when a reporter shoves a microphone in a black person’s face, and asks, “So, what does the black community think about this?” As if this random person off the street can speak for an entire community.
In any event, I don’t know. I know my folks tried hard to teach me the opposite, but there’s an awful lot of stuff in the rest of society that my folks had to contend with.
You tell me. Was I taught to dislike black people?
Since Puddy knows I ride with Ben Franklin on my dash I’ll part this discussion with one of Ben Franklins quotes.
“An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest.”
The pre 9/11 mindset is still the best mindset for me.
I don’t think it’s racist, but since the Obama camp thinks mentioning the Jessee Jackson lost in ’88 is racist, the bar is set pretty low.
@ 127
First, thanks for taking the time to give some thoughtful comments. I appreciate the insights.
I am, nevertheless, going to take issue with a dichotomy you drew up:
Obama represent the average black American who believes in self help and the fact that the white man can not hold you back unless you allow him. With his bi-racial DNA Obama is representative of the commonality among blacks and whites. Obama is the bridge black America has been waiting for to cross over from the liberal dependent thinking of the pass to the conservative self-dependency and economic planning of the future.
The connection between liberal ideas and “dependent thinking” is largely a caricature perpetuated by conservatives who want to promote their self-dependency ideology; an ideology which, more often than not, ends up being a form of “I got mine. You get yours.” If you ask a liberal, at least if you ask this liberal, the operative term is “inter-dependent.” It’s why racism is a valid concern for me. I seek to resolve this not out of any sense of guilt, or even, for that matter, as any form of reaction to the racism of the past.
When interdependence is the condition, then the government does have a proper role. While government cannot unilaterally change the conditions in which some people live, government can provide the means by which people can help themselves. At some level, it is, fundamentally, a question of power. A government of the people, by the people and for the people answers to the people. It gives everyone a seat at the table, and I think this notion is the basic underpinning of the liberal view.
zdp189 @ 34,
I wouldn’t say racism is a “priamal instinct,” but I think it’s something that’s widely evident in all peoples of the world. Physical differences, cultural differences and religous differences make racism inevitable. The best we can do is to try to overcome it.
SeattleJew says:
@33 zdp
but I agree that Politically Incorrect is an a hole.
Go fuck yourself, SJ, you elitist cocksucker.
Puddy@121:
Your write: 1) That’s nice. The people have to possess the skills. Inner city school systems prepare people for the real world?
My reply: See my proposal #3.
2) Wow The Edwards Two Americas “Blueprint” repackaged. Can you name me what poor person or middle class person who created a corporation? Class warfare is still alive and well in your mind.
My reply: You second “sentence” is syntactically a bunch of gibberish. Many things are alive in my mind. What about Puddy’s? Some wonder.
3) Cut defense spending. Wow where have I heard, read or felt that before. Do you realize many of the conveniences you enjoy in your home were defense projects that had commercial applications. I agree cut defense largess, but lets get rid of PORK PROJECTS first…
My reply: I am pleased that you see the utility of socialized research efforts. Although I do point out that your thought here pretty much invalidated just about every other post you have made here.
4) War on drugs… So I assume PTBAA you have no problems with your teenage child doing cocaine, hashish or other potent drugs? Notice I didn’t mention MJ? Why? Too hard to control. It’s prevalent everywhere. My son told me a story. The stoners would smoke outside behind the school. This happened to be where the fresh air intakes for the school A/C systems were. Guess what happened? Funny isn’t it…?
My reply: Lee took you down pretty well @ 123 above.
5) Yeah, I’m glad you said verifiable acts, not perceived or someone thought so.
My reply: As opposed to those who ‘perceived’ or ‘thought’ pastor Wright expressed racist ideas?
That being said…chops to you for your thoughtful post @ 124. You go back on your meds for that one? Sorry. Please write more like that one. Please.
@129 – Pac Man-WOW! I am so glad I read your entire post. It brought tears to my eyes! You have such great compassion to people as people, something you should be very proud of!
Thank you for the explanation of Wright’s history!
PTBAA:
How are you going to spend this “Defense Cut”? Where are the proposals? You claim you’d do this and do that, but you and I know your party would spend that money on useless social programs which in all honesty would not be used in the inner city. So cry me a river bud. Been there done that, Your holier than thou attitude does nothing for poor people or their ramshackle school systems.
How does this tax the rich bring us together? As I said above which your illiterate mind can’t fathom, Edwards Two Americas. Speech all over again. You can’t face reality. As I stated earlier, why have 5000 Millionaires left California over the past few years? Taxing the rich really works. Yeah close your eyes and ears to truth and reality.
So you decide to cut defense spending? Did you know the last great defense cut hurt my people the most? No you probably never read The Review of Black Political Economy http://www.springerlink.com/co.....lltext.pdf and then tell me about your wonderful defense cutbacks.
Let me know when you get educated. Yes SeattleJew I am holding my tongue but it’s tough when you meet a HorsesASShole such as this one…
Lee didn’t take me down. He voiced his opinion IDIOT! You are stupid. If you evaluate what he wrote: “because the supply is controlled by people willing to break the law already.” Why is this PTBAA? Who are willing to break the law? It’s easy money because people want to get high. Drugs are like sex in a way. People like to feel pleasure. But they don’t realize the damage being done to their bodies. So I ask again, So I assume PTBAA you have no problems with your teenage child doing DRUGS? Let’s have an answer.
Do you think or spout the party line?
Good point John Doe @ 127. Just a GBS stated @ 130 “We all tend to see our would through our own lenses and how you see things is not the way all of us see the same problem.” I will add that this is the beauty of a democracy. It allows us the freedom to express our beliefs in ways that only the individual can based on their respective viewpoint formed from life experiences. When we vote, we vote and when it’s all said and done may the best man (or woman) win. After this life goes on!!
Good point John Doe
You do realize you just Spoonerized my own Spoonerism, don’t you?
And, I do believe you are the first.
GBS @ 130 – your comment
“One of the reasons I’m throwing my support behind Barak Obama is along the same lines you have mentioned that he is the bridge. Not just for black Americans, I also see him as a “bridge” to the broader problems we face in the War On Terror. No doubt his name is Muslim, there will be no denying in the Muslim world that at this particular time in American history, while we are embroiled in a fundamental war with radical Islam, America elects a “black” man with a Muslim name will do more to birding a gap between America and the Muslim world than either Hillary Clinton or John McCain could ever hope to achieve no matter how well intentioned or patriotic each of them may be.”
I agree, Obama is a bridge for all Americans to cross. If/when he wins the presidency he will face unsurmountable odds that no other US president has ever had to face. His presidency will become front stage for the entire world from christians to muslims, from China to Russia and to the deepest parts of Africa, and each group will have their own spotlight on him. Will he be up to the pressure? I think so. Will he succeed, only if Americans give him a chance. He’ll have a honeymoon period in which he will need to accomplish the majority of his election promises because after a while he will be torn apart by the press.
The muslim population abroad will have to understand that his loyalty lies in America and not to expect too much. Although he will have a different perspective on foreign policy which will give them hope for a more compassionate America. On the other hand, if they attempt to take advantage of him his retalliation will be swifter and more brutal, but not until careful diplomacy failed. You’re absolutely right that he does have the strongest advantage of bridging the divide among radical muslims than either John McCain or Hillary Clinton.
Unfortunately I can only view his challenges from an African American perspective. Having said this, he is in for the job of his life and it would benefit him greatly to have the same strong team around him who’s running his campaign. I can honestly say that no matter what the world throws at him his biggest critics will be African Americans. They will love him but will show no mercy if he displays weakness abroad.
This is going to be interesting from various perspectives.
Hanna @ 138. My intent was not to defend Rev Wright but to shed some light on his viewpoint. I am glad you connected.
PTBAA:
How are you going to spend this “Defense Cut”? Where are the proposals? You claim you’d do this and do that, but you and I know your party would spend that money on useless social programs which in all honesty would not be used in the inner city. So cry me a river bud. Been there done that, Your holier than thou attitude does nothing for poor people or their ramshackle school systems.
How does this tax the rich bring us together? As I said above which your illiterate mind can’t fathom, Edwards Two Americas. Speech all over again. You can’t face reality. As I stated earlier, why have 5000 Millionaires left California over the past few years? Taxing the rich really works. Yeah close your eyes and ears to truth and reality.
So you decide to cut defense spending? Did you know the last great defense cut hurt my people the most? No you probably never read The Review of Black Political Economy, have you? THis is a good read. I suggest you educate yourself on how some of your “Quasi issues” resonate in other quarters.
www. springerlink. com/content /q34p2400g8104h14/ fulltext.pdf and then tell me about your wonderful defense cutbacks and how they will put MILLIONS of Americans out of work!
Let me know when you get educated. Yes SeattleJew I am holding my tongue but it’s tough when you meet a HorsesASShole such as this one…
Lee didn’t take me down. He voiced his opinion IDIOT! You are stupid. If you evaluate what he wrote: “because the supply is controlled by people willing to break the law already.” Why is this PTBAA? Who are willing to break the law? It’s easy money because people want to get high. Drugs are like sex in a way. People like to feel pleasure. But they don’t realize the damage being done to their bodies. So I ask again, So I assume PTBAA you have no problems with your teenage child doing DRUGS? Let’s have an answer.
Do you think or spout the party line?
@ 143
Jumping down other people’s throats over “truth” and “reality,” when your own view is just as myopic as everyone else’s; now there’s an effective way to have a policy discussion.
Frankly, I don’t have the time to give you a full run-down, but here’s a thought. You’ve touted the economic benefits of defense spending. Ultimately, however, the defense budget is really just a case of the government buying stuff. So, tell me, why do we have to reap the civilian benefits of the government buying military stuff in a second-hand manner? Didn’t we get the same benefit out of NASA?
@ 143
Another question for you to ponder: why are wages higher in some industries than in other industries?
PacMan: Those sermons were readily available for anyone to acquire at his church. The problem with Pastor Wright is his church used his fiery sermons to frame his church and it’s ministry. So I ask why did they have those sermons for sale? Didn’t they think of the possible ramifications?
Now Heilary is using this against Barack. The lefties are complaining McCain’s “surrogates” are using this against Barack. Funny I didn’t think ABC News was a McCain surrogate since they ran the Hagee story just before…
@136 Politically Inkorrect calls me a cock sucker and wants me to fuck myself.
I am confused .. are these suggestion nthat I pleasure myslef and others meant as praise?
oh ohh my error … PI meant Seattlejew! Anyhow same question.
@143 “taxing” the rich
The basic fact is that all “dollars” have become credit markers issues by the US Gov’t. How many of these credit units go to the rich vs the poor is a conscious desion by the government.
So it makes sense to ask how well we distribute the Fed Reserve’s credits to serve us all,
The simplest concept have seen is that the system should be jiggered to provide opti8mun opportunity. Dollars held by the super rich in their yachts (Allan has a bigger fleet than Canada).
This is why I favor a wealth tax … like the real estate tax but more progressive and externding over all possessions.
Rather than focus on taxes I think it is easier to focus on expenses. What are the minimal expenses?
Healthcare
Housing
Education
Public Safety
Civic Upkeep
Pofessional Sports!
We MUST pay for all these, the only issue is who pays what share?
@ 149
Another way to say the same thing: the word “capital” doesn’t mean the same thing to Economists and the IRS. Yet, conservatives use the Economists’ definition to justify the IRS’ usage.
SJ,
You called me an “a hole,” partner. I didn’t start the fucking name calling, so cut the holier-than-thou shit, asshole!
SJ said:
“This is why I favor a wealth tax … like the real estate tax but more progressive and externding over all possessions.
Rather than focus on taxes I think it is easier to focus on expenses. What are the minimal expenses?”
Thanks for such a fine example of what the neo-socialist buttfucks want: redistribution of wealth by government action. Yeah, that’ll be really good for the economy! Right!
PacMan–
I appreciate your thoughtful expose.
Having lived in Montgomery, Alabama in the late ’50’s as a young boy and grown-up going to school with and playing basketball with Blacks, I can relate to your comments probably more than most of the lily-white LEFTIST PINHEADED KLOWNS on this Blog. I grew up and was taught not to be afraid of Blacks.
That said, I would encourage you to further vet Barack Obama before pledging your support. I look at Obama’s 100% Liberal voting record and his costly plans for more programs and bigger government as “red Flags”. When I look further into the finances of his wife, his relationship & financial Dealings with Tony Resco and his comments about “typical white person” and affilation for Rev. Wright & others, it has a “chilling effect” on the image he is promulgating as a UNITER. Can you understand my concerns?
Obama has also craftily allowed his supporters to raise the race issue as a club to attempt to deflect ligitimate criticism.
Bottom-line–
I do not agree with your portrayal of Obama as some kind of Uniter. He is articulate…and incredibly bright. But he is philosphically a far-left Liberal/Socialist who believes in government solutions…big government. I point to his voting record. He was also raised & schooled in Chicago-style politics aka Resco and others. And his wife profited from his political success. Was there any Quid Pro Quo??
Obama has just begun to be vetted.
Hillary has been vetted. So has McCain.
I can understand why Blacks get stars in their eyes when they see and listen to Obama.
But PacMan–you have always impressed me as a FactMan.
Keep digging and make an informed decision based on a full vetting of Obama.
PAcMan–
One other thing–
I know you are not excusing Rev Wright for his comments..
But riddle me this…
Why didn’t Don Imus or Kramer or Al Campanis (former Dodger GM) get the same “Culture” courtesy for their comments.
The Black establishment visciously attacked these men.
The same Black establishment is attempting to tone-down Rev Wright’s comments as merely a reflection of “old school” and pent-up hate from his years of self-proclaimed persecution.
Seems like the only answer to the riddle is:
Power & Politics…because there is no rational distinction I can see.
Campanis was brought up in a tough Italian neighborhood where Blacks & Italians often battled.
Kramer is a goofball comedian who was practicing his craft…just like the “gangsta rappers”.
Imus is always controversial and stupidly parroted something he had heard.
I really don’t care about Rev. Wright.
But I do care how Obama reacts to this controversy. And I would give him a ‘C’ at best…too little, too late..but nice try.
I also believe Obama’s reaction is a “Red Flag” for folks to dig much, much deeper into this relative newcomer before making him our Commander in Chief.
The world is a dangerous place. Has been for a looooooooong time…although it’s convenient to blame Bush.
I view Obama as the next Neville Chamberlain…thinking he is so smart & powerful that he can negotiate with evil. And while Obama is talking and gutting our military…evil lurks and is empowered.
Hey Puddy @ 146: Your comment:
“Those sermons were readily available for anyone to acquire at his church. The problem with Pastor Wright is his church used his fiery sermons to frame his church and it’s ministry. So I ask why did they have those sermons for sale? Didn’t they think of the possible ramifications?”
I think these type sermons are so common among most black church with senior pastors from Wright’s era that the congregation never thought much about its ramifications, particularly when white members of the congregations are giving confirmation and shouting just as hard.
Mr. Cynical:
For once be serious. You cannot be concerned with Obama and the “red flags” you mentioned without being 100 times more worried about McCain given the Republicans recent track record.
Please.
Everyone: I remember the show him how to fish and he’ll feed himself.
What is wrong with showing someone how to be self-sufficient when they are young? Teach them the value of education? Explain why a college degree is important?
Why isn’t Jesse Jackson or John Lewis or Al Sharpton not espousing this? It gets them no MSM face time. Why didn’t they come to Bill Cosby’s defense when Russell Simmons and the other gangsta rappers attacked Bill? It gets them no MSM face time. All Bill said was black me need to respect black women. Stop writing songs about how they are gonna pitch a bitch that evening, give her a baby.
I placed all this on the board when Lee posted last time when he was inferring drugs.
Puddy @ 157:
Then you agree with me and Mr. Fanklin @ 132?
Yeah, ya do. You agree with us two ultra Liberals.
Why isn’t Jesse Jackson or John Lewis or Al Sharpton not espousing this? It gets them no MSM face time.
But they are espousing those things, Puddy. The fact that it gets them no MSM face time is why you never hear about it. I can’t quite tell if you know this paradox and are pointing it out or if you’re not seeing the inherent Catch-22 that many black leaders end up in.
@ 157
What is wrong with showing someone how to be self-sufficient when they are young?
Nothing. I don’t think anyone here said anything was wrong with that idea. Do you think this is incompatible with the notion of interdependence?
To use a different analogy, there’s nothing wrong with having some people deal with the problems of today’s flood while other people work out ways that we can be better prepared for the next flood. As someone once said, a diversity of actions is called for, because we can’t each do everything nor can we all do the same thing.
Teach them the value of education? Explain why a college degree is important?
I think the problem is that there is no one-size-fits-all way to teach anyone the value of an education or explain why a college degree is important. It’s easy to say that we should do something. It’s a hell of a lot more difficult figuring out the details of how.
As for why anyone else is or is not espousing ideas, why should we care? We’re here at this particular table. Let’s talk about the issues. If they don’t want to take part in the dialogue, that’s their problem.
I placed all this on the board when Lee posted last time when he was inferring drugs.
Yes, you did, and in a manner that left a number of possible conclusions on the table. You have this habit of tossing various disconnected factoids out and expecting everyone to figure out where you’re headed. It’s a great way to get people talking past each other.
And, one of the points I think you missed in that thread is that it gets really difficult to convince young people to get an education and go to college when there is so much drug money out there.
You asked whether or not I’d want my kids taking drugs. Hell, I don’t want my kids drinking alcohol. Do I want to go back to prohibition? Not on your life.
Ultimately, this is where we run into the clash between conservative and liberal views. Fundamentally, there are two dimensions to the broad array of problems we’re discussing here: moral and economic. Conservatives want the government to solve some of the moral problems and let the private sector resolve the issues in the economic dimension. Liberals reverse the two: incorporate government into solutions to economic issues and leave moral issues to the private sector.
Do you see any way past this fundamental difference?
@152 ,,, Duid I object to your use of the F word or ask for clarification.
@153 PI
Why not think a few seconds before you respond?
I have noit said anything about redistributing wealth. What I have said is that we should pay or bills as a society and that requires taxes. But Taxes are, after all, applied to the credits the Fed issues. So, in OUR society from the Fed comes the dollars and it seems rational that the government control the flow of what ot creates.
Of course, if you would rather exist in a barter system, you are free to do so.
@156 Right on! Intersting how the racists and the Clintonistas are so shocked that sixties radicals talk this way. Shocked, shocked! But then Bill never inhaled.
Mr. Cynical @ 155.
I wish I had the answers to your questions but I do not. My comments reflect my personal observation. I will say however that I do not support Rev Wrights comments and I don’t think there is any excuse for such language in public domains. I consider the church a public domain because of its mission and purpose.
From the points you made I will conclude that your real issue is racial double standards. If my conclusion is right, then you’re absolutely correct. Racial double standards are alive and well in America.
For some reason the media ignores black racism but highlights white racism. What Don Imus said was racist, sexist, and intolerant to the black community, that goes without saying. On the other hand, what the rappers are saying are much worst on many levels but instead of being fired or boycotted they’re laughing all the way to the bank. But what happens when black personalities use racial remarks on television and radio against whites? Not much!!
On October 14, 2005, while addressing a panel at Howard University Law School, Kamau Kambon, a black professor used these words live on C-SPAN: “We have to exterminate White people off the face of the planet .” What were the results – There was no media backlash. No pickets. No “Stop the Hate” marches. And there certainly were no live media conferences discussing hate and racism in the media as there was for the Imus comment. So what’s the difference!?
The race card!
White Americans have no defense against the race card and therefore shy away from the subject altogether. Open discussions on racial issues mean different things to blacks and whites. For whites it’s an idea, a concept. To blacks it’s a necessity. For whites to make racial statements towards blacks require a relationship beyond simply understanding the state of black Americans. Certainly there have been whites who have made such comments without repercussions from the media but it wasn’t what they said it was how they said it.
Racial double standards are unfair but then so is racial profiling. It’s a screwed up world…….What can you say.
@158 … Once again I think there is a true progressive hiding under Puddy’s well groomed fur!
The image of liberals wanting to create a dependent class is not true, but it is true that some liberal policies have had that unintended consequences. OTOH conservatives have never, to my knowledge, supported efforts to create upward mobility. Traditionally, conservatism is classist and that is 4plus true of the current crop of regressive republicans.
Historically, it has been the Progressives (under different names) that supported Egalitarian opportuniyt .. Jefferson vs. the Federalist/Whigs, Jackson, Roosevelt, Kennedy, Johnson, Clinton.
We might argue about the unintended consequences of some of these folks’ plans but the record for the conservatives is far worse. From Reagan on they have made education less affordable, created a widening gao between public and private education, sponsored regressive taxes that tax the middle class, etc.
That is why I favor a cost based budget. FIRST we should ask what do we have to do to guarantee every American an equal opportunity .. education, healthcare, reirement, are all ceirical to this goals. THEN we need ot decide how to use monetary and fiscall policies to optimize productivity.
SURELY, you do not feel that Billy G nee3ded these vast untaxed profits ot become The Gates? OTOH, as a fortunate graduate of Harvard I resent the current world where even with Harvard’s generous scholarship program, few kids from the lower classes will ever be able to compete for Harvard admittance.
@158 … Once again I think there is a true progressive hiding under Puddy’s well groomed fur!
The image of liberals wanting to create a dependent class is not true, but it is true that some liberal policies have had that unintended consequences. OTOH conservatives have never, to my knowledge, supported efforts to create upward mobility. Traditionally, conservatism is classist and that is 4plus true of the current crop of regressive republicans.
Historically, it has been the Progressives (under different names) that supported Egalitarian opportunity .. Jefferson vs. the Federalist/Whigs, Jackson, Roosevelt, Kennedy, Johnson, Clinton.
We might argue about the unintended consequences of some of these folks’ plans but the record for the conservatives is far worse. From Reagan on they have made education less affordable, created a widening gap between public and private education, sponsored regressive taxes that tax the middle class, etc.
That is why I favor a cost based budget. FIRST we should ask what do we have to do to guarantee every American an equal opportunity .. education, healthcare, reirement, are all clerical to this goals. THEN we need ot decide how to use monetary and fiscal policies to optimize productivity.
SURELY, you do not feel that Billy G nee3ded these vast untaxed profits ot become The Gates? OTOH, as a fortunate graduate of Harvard I resent the current world where even with Harvard’s generous scholarship program, few kids from the lower classes will ever be able to compete for Harvard admittance.
Mr. Cynical @ 154 – I hear you and I understand your position on the race issue. Also, you’re correct on Obama’s voting record. However, my intent was not to paint him as a uniter. I was merely attempting to explain why he’s getting so much support among blacks. I intentionally left out the reason why he’s getting so much support by whites, particularly white males. His success so far exceeds the 12% black population and its income.
In an earlier post last week I expressed my concerns with Obama and that is the fact that he’s a democrat. I wish he was republican. Oh well……..
Sorry .. there is a glitch here .. sometimes a message is posted before I am done.
ctd …
I think we get the worst of both worlds when conservatives and progressives come ot gether for the wrong reasons:
Under Reagan … we closed our mental hospitals because libtard were worried about the civil rights of the insane and rad repubs felt they could save a buck. Result: StreetPeople.
Seattel Public Schools do not have a central academic high school because liberals think it is elitist and conservatives want the public schools to fail.
NASA is wasting its resources because Conservatives worry about budgets and do not want certain studies done. Liberals want to be fair with how NASA funds are spent.
etc etc
Buttypudfucker @ 148: “So I ask again, So I assume PTBAA you have no problems with your teenage child doing DRUGS? Let’s have an answer.”
I refuse to answer “when did you stop beating your wife” rhetorical questions you idiot. Oh, and ‘cry me a river’ while you’re at it.
PacMan–
Thanks for your comments.
I understand.
Obama is about the furthest thing from a Republican you can get. Voting Records are important.
He sure is enticing….Bright, articulate, strong stage presence.
Yet he is truly a far-left Liberal schooled deeply in Old Chicago politics. Not my kind of guy.
I was 100% behind J.C. Watts before the Black pimps of poverty and there White chums crucified Watts.
Watts used to be a Democrat, interestingly enough.
I met him personally.
Outstanding individual.
Competitive by nature…great QB @ Oklahoma and in the Canadian Football League.
Watts & Largent…both terrific men.
Both out of politics.
Discouraging.