I reproduce for your reading pleasure the lyrics of a little song my 7-year-old daughter and her 6-year-old cousin wrote tonight, spelling mistakes intact. I’ll buy a beer for the first person who correctly deciphers the content.
Prosint Bose is stopied and men.
Prosint Bose looks like a piall of po.
Prosint Bose is men,
and we are geting out of here.
And yes, there is a point to posting this online, which I will get to later.
UPDATE:
Mark gets the beer, but Scott deserves credit for decoding most of it. The correct translation is:
President Bush is stupid and mean,
President Bush looks like a pile of pooh,
President Bush is mean,
And we are getting out of here.
I should mention that when I asked my daughter to translate the spellings, she could hardly stop laughing as she sang me the song. Children have a natural predilection for scatological humor, and often take great joy in mocking adults… so what could be funnier than comparing the president of the United States to a pile of pooh?
Like any doting parent I spent some time pondering the lyrics as we drove home from her cousin’s house, and a couple observations came to mind that prompted me to blog on her little exercise in political satire.
First, it struck me that her commentary was not really all that more childish than the level of discourse that sometimes runs through the threads on this blog. One might argue that “a pile of pooh” is as apt a political metaphor as any, for describing the Bush administration; indeed, I could probably write a couple thousand words expanding on the analogy. But on its own, it’s just the kind of empty (if sometimes funny) personal attack that too often substitutes for real policy debate. President Bush may very well be stupid and mean, but until my daughter backs it up with evidence and analysis, she’s not going to persuade many of her peers.
However, my second observation runs a bit deeper, and it is one which I am happy to see has already been touched upon in this thread. My daughter comes from a very politically passionate family — you might be surprised to learn, even more so on her mother’s side than her father’s. Even without direct instruction, she is being raised through osmosis, to be a liberal Democrat, in the same way that a child might be raised a Catholic or a Jew… in the same way that her Seattle-born, Irish Catholic mother and her Philadelphia-born Jewish father were both raised with a shared political philosophy.
Just like the friends of mine who describe themselves as “recovering Catholics,” there are certainly many children who grow up to reject the political tendencies of their parents, through some combination of thoughtful conversion and sheer rebelliousness. But politics and party identification tends to run through families… and it runs deep.
No doubt there are many voters who are politically secular, with no loyalty to one party or another, but it is safe to bet that few if any of you who regularly join me in this blog fall into that category. We are the political hardcore; for most of us, our political ideology is deeply rooted in our childhood, even for those who rejected the politics of their parents. Thus, our politics are integral to our personal identity.
I myself am a liberal, and while I may be persuaded to adopt a traditionally conservative position on particular points of policy, I am no more likely to accept Karl Rove as my savior, as I am Jesus Christ.
But as a liberal, I am also proudly a moral relativist. I do not believe that those of you with whom I disagree with politically, are evil. Wrong, but not evil. (Well… maybe Cynical.)
For the umpteenth time I want to repeat that I don’t mind the name-calling and invective, indeed, I encourage it if it makes an otherwise wonkish policy debate a little more entertaining. But I also encourage a little more self-awareness… an understanding that your core political beliefs are not nearly as much a product of reasoned introspection as you would like to imagine, and that the political “other” is not really so different from yourself. It is rhetorically convenient to demonize the opposition as a bunch of liars and thieves, willing to do anything to seize power, but if you truly believe this, then I suggest you need to look deep into your own heart — and your childhood — to confront your own inner demons.
So here’s hoping we can all continue to walk together through the dog park of Washington politics, avoid stepping in the occasional “piall of po,” and sometimes even learn something from one another.
President Bush is stupid and mean,
President Bush looks like a pail of pooh.
President Bush is mean,
and we are getting out of here.
Not the most cogent political analysis, but it’ll do for a 7 year old.
Sorry, Scott. It is a “PILE of POO.” The rest is correct.
Goldy,
I honestly hope the reason you’re posting this is to point out that we, as adults, need to be aware of the environment in which we raise children.
Did your daughter, herself, come up with the idea that the President was stupid and mean? Or when she asked who the man was on the TV, did you tell her, “that is President Bush and he told soldiers to blow up people’s houses in a country far away?”
The wisest and fairest thing is to teach children to be critical thinkers and not merely parrots of parents’ vitriol.
A parent should ask themselves if their goal is to raise more “soldiers for the cause” or a future great thinker who may eventually solve our problems by moving past partisan bickering?
Oh, darn. And I was so close to getting that beer from Goldy.
I have 2 kids of my own aged 6 and 9. They go to an overwhelmingly liberal alternative school in Seattle yet there are few token conservatives about – very, very few. When the kids of the conservatives parents tell our sons that they support President Bush, we tell our sons that’s OK some people think Bush is doing a good job, etc. It doesn’t make them bad people.
There is a lot of vitriol in our household but I’m sure our kids see through the noise. Kids have a lot more on ball than we ever give them credit for.
Yesterday I was in a community center and a furious mother was practically shrieking at her very young daughter for her aggressive behavior. This mother was desperately asking her why her daughter had scratched her face and pulled at her hair. This little girl who couldn’t have been more than 5 mentioned that her mother stood by while her father had slapped her. The mother interrupted but the girl held her ground and told her firmly, “No. Listen to me. I don’t why I did that…” That gave me chills. This little girl knew herself well enough to tell her mother that she was a mystery even to herself and that her mother needed to shut up and understand that. I glanced over at them and they were embracing. I hoped that some understanding between them had been reached.
Just a small story from a day in the life.
Goldy–
I’m sure you must be proud!
Perhaps she was talking about her father?
Or perhaps someday she will be if her mother goads her to do so.
Being married to an elementary school teacher of 28 years, I can assure you Art Linkletter was right when he said,
“Kids say the Darnedest Things”!
I have a few true Clinton stories that will curl you rhair!
I was passing on information from my parents who lived during the Depression when I told my 4 year old grandchild, you should eat your dinner, kids in Egypt are starving for food. Kids of the TV generation are to smart for that wornout clean your plate line, she looked up at me, her eyes wide and swiftly said, “send it to them.” Ouch!
Mark@3. Your last paragraph holds a deep message. Children are putty waiting to be molded; in your hands under your charge. What they repeat are the values taught or not taught early on. It bad garbage goes in, bad garbage comes out and if good values goes in, good virtues come out. Parenting is one of the greatest responsibilities. They raise or lower our future generation.
A little Democrat in the making. [Did she vote in 2004?]
GOLDY.
Your topic does have a much deeper message. I hope you get to it later. I will take a rain check later. Thanks. :-)
Your kids must go to public schools.
Most children tend to sway liberal or democrat, it is when they get older and pay taxes and get their proverbial “eyes” opened that they get conservative. It was the last election that did it for my daughter, she was democrat all the way through college then started working for her money and trying to keep some of it. I have never pushed her on who to vote (we have debated in the past) but this 21 year old got her ballot in the mail and sat down at the table and voted Republican all the way down, I asked her about it and she said FUCK the taxing bastards! I was so proud! Your party finally broke my girl and opened her eyes!
Chuck – trust me on this – NO ONE likes taxes!
Now that we’ve gotten THAT out of the way, perhaps one of you conservative geniuses can explain to us how government is supposed to function with NO TAXES, or how society is supposed to function with NO GOVERNMENT.
P.S. Chuckie, why don’t you sit down with your daughter sometime and explain to her that Bush wants to eliminate taxes on investment income so that wage slaves like your daughter will pay ALL the taxes while the rich skate scot-free. Then see who she votes for.
Don@14
Not true Don, he simply wants to eliminate the “windfall” portion. The investor would still have to pay income tax on the earnings…boy you guys with your half truths.
Or just have her read through this site.
http://www.bushpresident2004.com/index.htm
Don@13
Don, no one said no taxes, but government needs resrained, we are paying 40-50% of our income to government…too godamn much, and they still want MORE.
Don, just how much tax is fair? How much is enough in your esteemed opinion?
I have updated the blog entry to actually make my point.
But in defense of my daughter, I would like to note that her anti-Bush song was only one of several she wrote this weekend, and the only one that was political in nature. So here is a more typical example of her work:
There is still hope Goldy, when your daughter gets old enough to pay taxes like mine did, she can still experience an “eye opening” and maturing experience and become a conservative. Who knows she may write another “song” and make a fortune singing about the wrongs of the democratic party. There is still hope though, she doesnt have to follow your footsteps.
I am also proudly a moral relativist. -by Goldy, 03/13/2005, 11:22 PM
The single most telling statement in that whole piece: the ethics, the morals, the standards of expediency and convenience.
Great way to raise your kid: “if YOU BELIEVE, THINK, FEEL it’s right today darling daughter then it must be right”.
No wonder this city, this state, this country, this world is going to hell in a handbasket.
Anonymous… clearly my commentary was wasted on you, as you prefer knee-jerk reactions to the effort of introspection. Your comment just makes you look like a piall of po.
Goldy–
“Introspection”?? Is that what the bullshit you post is a result of?? “Introspection”??
Dickheads like Goldy revel in self-proclaimed labels like Progressive, Moral Relevist, Introspective blah, blah, blah.
Then they indoctrinate their kids at a tender young age to hate people they disagree with and to believe their father resides on a “higher plane” than others. Perhaps it is the divorced father syndrome and feelings of inadequacy that compel the Goldy’s of the world to try and convince their child that they are “superior”. Goldy will obviously deny this. Goldy is immature and inexperienced at raising children. Rather than allow them to be kids at 7….they are dragged into the Goldy pit of Godless Heathenism and Utopian Marxist feel-good beliefs”.
Goldy, do yourself a favor and be a bitten more “discerning” and “introspective” when it comes to a 7 year-old child. After all, you certainly don’t want her to turn out like you!!!
Cynical @ 7:
Do us all a favor and do some introspection on your own. Your stone casting has all the intellectual fervor of cooked spaghetti.
Goldy:
I have a 13 year old son who excels at debate. His father and I are hopeful that he will do well enough to get a scholarship to a good university through his forensics achievements.
He debates topical issues from both sides. He’s debated the conservative side of abortion, taxes, church/state and immigration, among others. He’s researched these topics at length, which good debators at any level do.
I’m proud that my son, after having studied and debated many political issues holds strong and well supported liberal beliefs. I’ve watched him out-debate more than one conservative adult.
And when your sons eyes are open after he becomes a taxpayer, I am certain that he will be a forbidable opponent for the conservative side against the liberals. We look forward to having him on our team!
Chuck @ 15
Uh, no. The neocons want to eliminate all taxation of capital gains, dividends, interest income, rents, and inheritances. That leaves wages and salaries. That’s right, their objective is to shift the entire federal tax burden onto earned income so those who don’t have to work for their money will pay NOTHING.
The only question concerning Bush is how far he is willing to push this agenda. His actions to date persuade me he’ll push it as far as he thinks he can get away with it.
Carla @ 24
“I’m proud that my son, after having studied and debated many political issues holds strong and well supported liberal beliefs.”
How sad. You should be proud that your son studied the information. You should be proud that your son (apparently) thought for himself. But pride from the fact that he agrees with you merely vanity.
Chuck @ 17
I agree — we are spending WAY too much on optional wars, corporate welfare, and interest on the national debt. We need to rid the White House and Congress of lying, fiscally irresponsible, big spending Republicans and get some responsible Democrats in there.
Chuck @ 18
Enough to support government activities that produce a net benefit for society but not so much as to be unaffordable.
What percent of GDP that is, varies over time. When you are in an all-out war for survival like World War 2 the society’s entire resources must be devoted to national needs, or at least as much of it as can be marshaled by political leadership. In more sedentary times, people should be able to kick back, relax, and consume. When there’s a Cold War or terrorist threat hanging over us, we have to put more coins in the pot again. Taxes should be as little as possible and as much as is necessary.
Naturally it follows that when you’re fighting a $200 billion war in Iraq and another war against Al Qaida, that is NOT the time to be slashing taxes by trillions of dollars and increasing corporate welfare by trillions more. That’s just plain nuts.
Don@28
some responsible Democrats in there>>> An oxymoron?
Don@31
I ask a simple question you have answered with more of your retoric nonsence, we are paying 40-50% of our production into government…how much is enough?
Goldy –
”Like any doting parent I spent some time pondering the lyrics as we drove home from her cousin’s house,”
You could have killed someone driving home while pondering such a thing. It is well known liberals can’t do two things requiring thought at once. :)
”We are the political hardcore; for most of us, our political ideology is deeply rooted in our childhood, even for those who rejected the politics of their parents.”
True statement. First generation Republican, myself. My grandparents were FDR Democrats. My grandmother voted for every Democrat that ran for President until 1980, when she voted Anderson because Carter wasn’t liberal enough for her(!)…My mother became a “Reagan” Democrat that year.
My dad is still voting for the best candidate without regard for political party, IHO. At times, I do the same thing…If it comes down to who has an R or D following their name and all issue stances are similar, the R wins. Every time.
Forgive me a few minutes of your time to let me tell you a story Goldy:
For the record, I’m 37 and I have two kids of my own. When I was a little guy, my Dad programmed me to walk around and say “Nixon” whenever I saw dog poop. Now this delighted him almost as much this post about your daughter delights you. And he loved for me to do my little act in front of his fellow Democrat friends. As you may have guessed, he’s a hard core Democrat like yourself. He told me who to vote for in 1984 during my first voting experience. I did as I was told and I was a good little Democrat until college.
Then something interesting happened. I enrolled as an engineer. I learned the scientific method, and I learned how to solve problems and think for myself. When I graduated, I realized that all of the ideas that my Dad and other Democrats had been selling were a bunch of BS. Typically, there would be some authoritative presence in my life, be it my father, or a teacher, etc. that had always told me how to think politically, and it was always left leaning. They never had any real reasons as to why I should think liberally, they just insisted that it was right. One example was an economics professor who told the story of his wife giving birth to their child while he was in England and how he was so impressed by the fact that they did not want any money at the hospital because they had socialized medicine. He neglected to mention that the money for medical procedures does come from somewhere, nor the tax rate for British citizens.
But, I digress, when I actually learned to think for myself, I became much more right leaning politically. I am actually quite socially moderate, but fiscally conservative, but more important, I am very against the leftist dogma that smart people like yourselves are invariably passing along to the more gullible such as less educated minorities and to the children like your daughter. Believe me, as a parent I know she’s not picking up stuff about President Bush out of thin air.
Hopefully you will learn that you’ll have a much more independent and well rounded child if you teach her how to think and form opinions for herself then by filling her up with your own hatred for Bush, etc. In fact, I bet there are some things that you even agree with Bush about, but your daughter won’t get the benfit of learning a more well rounded view of all of Bush’s ideas if she simply thinks of him as a “stopied and men” and a “piall of po.”
Here’s to your daughter growing up and learning to think for herself like I did.
carla @24
Sounds like your son is well on his way to criminal defense attorney. Nuttin’ wrong with that…
mark @ 27:
Who are you to tell me what I should and shouldn’t be proud of with my son?
I’m proud that he can put together a good, studied argument and articulate it. If that isn’t something you’d be proud of with your kid…that’s really not my problem.
Chuck @ 25:
And when your sons eyes are open after he becomes a taxpayer, I am certain that he will be a forbidable opponent for the conservative side against the liberals. We look forward to having him on our team!
My son sees his mom pay taxes. He also understands finances. He has his own savings account that he contributes and withdraws from at will.
His eyes are open to the fact that taxes are a priviledge of being a US citizen..and part of the dues we pay for living in the greatest nation on Earth. I find it difficult to believe he’d be interesting in shirking such an honor and a responsibility.
Carla @ 37
I was AGREEING with you about those two things — studying and thinking on one’s own. Wonderful things to be proud of in a child.
But when you say you’re “proud” that he takes your same political positions, that is either vanity or arrogance, not healthy pride.
Carla @ 37
And before you go off challenging what you did or didn’t say…
You said, “I’m proud that my son, after having studied and debated many political issues holds strong and well supported liberal beliefs.” [emphasis mine]
The non-highlighted text is subordinate to the main phrase. If you had left out the word “liberal,” there would have been no issue. If that word is irrelevant, then come right out and say that if your son wore a pro-Bush T-shirt that you’d be perfectly happy as long as he came to the decision on his own.
Be glad to have healthy happy kids. kids have no trouble wanting to think for themself. Always a battle there. However the child comes into life an empty vessel, someone has to fill their cup. That is where the programming starts and it is a to each his one issue. What the does when emancipated will be left to be seen No magic there. Nothing wrong with parents influencing their children, if they did not they might as well lock them in a closet and slip their food uner the door. I have seen the worst kids come form the best homes and the best kids come form the worst homes. I do not see any reasoning behind ranking Goldy, Carla or anyone about how they want to bring up their children and it is noones business unless there is neglect or abuse involved. People should be proud of their children and children need to know they parents are proud of them. This leads a child to take pride in what they do. Many children are also proud of their parents. I see nothing to make fun of or knock.
When you can take the pebble from my hand then it is time for you to leave.
Chuck@41. Cool saying.
carla@24.
I like this saying a lot. “We can be lamps that guide our children but their morning will come and then they will find their own place in the sun.” Be as proud as a peacock of the fact your son is able to debate on both sides, that is the art of true debate. Some lucky girl will appreciate the ability he drew from debate; viewing things from both sides and communicating. The biggest failing in most marriages is a lack of either of those two denomintors. You go girl!
Chee-to Brain @ 40–
Goldy brought his daughter into the issue and made her the issue.
Thus Goldy is asking for these comments. Understand? I didn’t think so because your brain is gross, orange cheese-like matter filled with 90% air Chee-to Brain!!
carla brought her son into the discussion and made him an issue. You LEFTISTS are always running to the defense of your brethren whenever their “feelings” may be hurt.
carla–
We heard all about what you admire in your son. How does your husband feel??? Boys need to have an involved father in their lives to have balance. Too many boys don’t have that and woman are forced to try to be both (which is impossible because God created men and women differently…for a reason). Other times, especially in divorce situations, bitter woman can seriously damage a boys image of fathers & men irreparably. It’s such a shame. Being married to a teacher for 28 years, I have volunteered in her class for years….seeing boys without Dad’s and Mother’s who go out of their way to bad mouth their father.
It’s very, very sad. EGO’s!!! I don’t know what your deal is carla but I can guess based on the chronic “chip on your shoulder”.
BTW Goldy –
Why else would a righty be here but to wade through the occasional pile if poo? I don’t have an answer, specifically…but the pile might not be particularly menacing…other than the stench…which, by design should keep me away, yet does not. Perhaps a fly drawn to the pile? No way, I protest!
Does that mean I, too, am a moral relativist?
No, you must be a center-lefty…
Okay, that was more than a stretch…
Mr. Cynical @44 – Riotous. Simply riotous. Gotta love that humor mixed with truth.
Goldy — You have illustrated possibly one of the greatest differences between conservatism and liberalism.
James Earl Carter.
Lyndon Baines Johnson.
John Fitzgerald Kennedy.
William Jefferson Clinton.
The names, all of them, are recited from memory. Even though I may disagree with the politics of some, all these men were our President, holding an office of trust, leading our nation. It is an office of dignity, deserving of respect. This is why you see conservatives come unglued at dress stains and sordid cigars, abhor flag burnings, and still include the words “Under God” in the pledge of allegiance.
I may certainly disagree with a President’s policies, but our President deserves more respect than being called a pile of poo. I would hope that you would not only give your daughter the freedom to learn but also the courage to respect, even when in disagreement.
Chee @ 42
Yeah but do you notice some people can think only in bumper sticker phrases?
Zapporo @47,
That is a crock of horse shit, and your comment just illustrates what I was talking about. Calling Bush a piall of po has nothing to do with being liberal or conservative… at has everything to do with being irreverent. Furthermore, your generalization is of the most blatantly self-righteous kind… people on the right were calling Clinton much worse than a piall of po… they called him a murderer!
Gimme a break.
Gee- I thought it was a light weight, amusing little ditty. It was written by a 7 year old. I guess that’s right at the level of many commentors.
Zapporo @ 47
You have got to be kidding. After the hatchet job done on President Clinton while he was in office and in the 4 years since he left it, you can’t seriously be saying that the conservative media have supported a culture of respect for the office.
And take a look at uSP for a few choice examples of denigrating office holders you don’t agree with. Not just Gov. Gregoire, but also King Co. Executive Ron Sims and even Sec. of State Sam Reed have had their names butchered by the conservative “pundits” over there.
Liberals don’t have a perfect record of respecting the office while disagreeing with the office holder, but conservatives have no claim to it either.
Goldy – Why don’t we ask Vince Foster about that one?
Mr. Kennedy – Profiles in Courage, Ask not what your Country…
Mr. Johnson – Civil Rights Movement, War on Poverty…..
M.r Carter – Middle East Peace Process, Balanced Budget….
Mr. Clinton – Whitewater, Cigar, Dress Stain, Vince Foster…
Seriously, other than Al Gore inventing the internet, what did the Clinton administration build, invent, or put into action that is of lasting value? What is Mr. Clinton’s true legacy?
zapporo@52
The stained dress, as well as the visual of him shaking his finger at the camera “I did not have sexual relations with that woman” and of coarse the famous “it depends on what the meaning of is is”
Chuck–
You forgot what Bill was thinking while watching all the news coverage re” Lewinsky:
“Damn..it does curve to the left!”
Zap@47. That really displays your double standard post, Bame calling is name calling.
Chuck@53. Many there were who couldn’t fault Bill’s sexual weakness due to the fact they had or were cheating on their partners, Oh sure, expect them admit it? Few there be that confess their infidelities. Clinton had sins of ommission, yes. Look back over all the Presidents in history and their sexxual sins which were hidden. The differance is, Bill got caught. The stained dress was a forensic sting, operation engineered by Monica’s mom otherwise why did she advise Monica to keep stained dress. I am sure Bill had enough smarts to send his trousers to the cleaners. I am not supporting Bill’s actions or Monica’s lack of restraint, morals or consenting sexual actions. I am saying, human fraility abounds in everyone.
Why at the age of seven is your daughter spelling that badly? Public schools? Seriously, you love her obviously and she is smart…so why in the heck is her spelling that bad?
christmasghost @57,
How nice of you to be so concerned with my daughter’s welfare. Clearly, some of the comments here question my parenting abilities.
My daughter is enrolled in a Montessori program within a public school. At this age, spelling is still deemphasized in creative writing. Her spelling is much more accurate when she takes the time to figure it out while doing actual school work.
I would much prefer she spend her free time writing poetry and songs, chock full of spelling errors, than not writing at all because it’s too timely and frustrating to spell everything out. I myself was a prolific writer and lousy speller at her age. I seem to have outgrown the latter.
Goldy has a right as a parent to raise his children as he sees fit as long as DSHS approves. Obviously his daughter probably picked up her political opinions from Daddy, and there are those on this blog that don’t agree with his brand of politics. I don’t see anything wrong with teaching politic opinions to children.
Goldy……..hey creative is creative, but if I may offer some advice? I have three sons in college right now and as a parent who has been there, done that, be sure to not listen to too much of the BS from modern teachers. They are mostly concerned with making things easy for themselves and spelling correctly does NOT inhibit creativity.It’s not an either/or thing….no matter what they tell you, learning to spell correctly is the basis for creative thought and it does have priority.That’s like saying “I want my daughter to be a great painter so I don’t want her to learn how to use a brush and paints.”
She really should be doing better than that. Why are you wasting money on a nutty montessori program anyway? Sheesh as a good liberal isn’t that a tad elitist of you to not just send her to public schools alone? Aren’t you one of the ones that thinks the teacher’s union has a corner on the market on truth? And then with the money you save you can donate that to the homeless shelters…right?
Goldy @ 58
“I myself was a prolific writer and lousy speller at her age. I seem to have outgrown the latter.”
[Niehaus: “Whoah! Look at that fat fastball over the middle of the plate!]
A mocking comment at this point would just be too easy.
Ghost @ 60
“And then with the money you save you can donate that to the homeless shelters…right?”
Hey, hey… There is a big difference between publicly-run programs and ones that are privately run. Some of the faith-based charities that provide homeless care/shelter are extremely efficient with their money and do a lot of good.
MARK@62…Yes I am aware of that.Your point is???
What I was pointing out is here is yet another liberal[do as I say, not as I do moment] who doesn’t send his child to regular public schools ….yet he expects everyone who can’t afford the Montessori program to do just that…send their kids to public schools.
And goldy…I don’t blame you….public schools, especially in this state, are absolutely horrible. But…Montessori?
Her sweeping skills must be excellant…….
Chee@56
Question posed was what was clintons lasting legacy…I gave he answer.
christmasghost @60,
You make many assumptions. My daughter is enrolled at Graham Hill Elementary, one of two schools in the Seattle School District that has a Montessori program. She started attending the program at age three, and we paid tuition for pre-school and full-day kindergarten. Starting in grade 1, there is no additional cost…. she is simply on the Montessori track. As a good liberal, I send me daughter to one of the most diverse public schools you’ll find anywhere in the nation… and it is the neighborhood school we live next door to.
Personally, I totally disagree with your emphasis on spelling at this age, for a number of reasons. Too many kids are taught to write properly, but end up being taught not to write. She will learn to spell over time, at her own pace, standardized tests be damned.
But again, it is your assumptions that are telling. My daughter is being taught in public schools by unionized teachers, and yet, she is in an innovative, non-traditional program, where all the teachers obtained additional Montessori training at their own time and expense. All those things people say only charter schools can do… we’re proving you can do within the school district.
If you’re going to accuse somebody of hypocrisy, you should do your research.
Goldy – Don’t moral relativists take the position that moral proposition do not reflect absolute or universal truths? If a person espouses political propositions based on moral values, how can you believe they are wrong, and still call yourself a moral relativist?
Moral relativism has little to do with good versus evil. Moral relativists believe that moral positions have no truth value, and that there is no preferred standard of reference by which to judge them right or wrong. (See Wikipedia.) As a consequence, it would then logically follow that moral values of good and evil are not also ascertainable.
Would you reconsider your pronouncement of being a moral relativist? It doesn’t seem to make sense given your admission that you believe that those with whom you disagree politically are wrong. Their political beliefs are almost always justified on moral or biblical values.
Liking It @66,
My world view is more of the John Stuart Mills, “utilitarian” variety, and when I say somebody is wrong, I mean it in a very pragmatic sense. Perhaps naively, I believe that most people who disagree with me on policy issues, are still good people, trying to do the right the thing. But in my opinion, based on my on intellectual exploration of the issues, they are wrong about what the right thing to do is.
My “moral relativism” comes less from being steeped in liberalism, than it does growing up a Jew. When you are obviously a member of a tiny minority, it would be awfully arrogant to assume that you have monopoly on moral truths. I do not believe in an external morality imposed by God or anybody else. We posit our own morality. It is thus possible for one person to be passionately pro-life and another to be passionately pro-choice, and yet both to be moral. That to me is the essence of moral relativism, whatever the dictionary definition might be.
Mark @ 39:
Again…who are you tell me what I should and shouldn’t be proud of with my son? I stand by my inital statement. Your disapproval of which has no bearing one way or the other.
Cynical @ 44
My son’s father is his other primary parent. Who’s yours?
I agree that moral “right” -ness should not be measured by moral “might” in the number of believers.
However, I think moral relativism, even as you define it is a fundamentally flawed philosophy. Subjective morality is a see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil philosophy. We all posit our own morality so no-one should ever be accused of being evil. Reminds me of another great philsopher who said, “Why can’t we all just get along.” If moral relativists fail to apply any standard to judging right from wrong, and good from evil, how does a moral relativist defend their own philosophy as right and good?
Don’t be afraid to condemn evil for what it is.
GOLDY….don’t get your knickers in such a knot…..just explain to me why …really….why the teachers are not teaching your daughter to spell? What is learning to spell interfering with? Do you know what that ‘diversity” that you get all warm and fuzzy about will amount to later on? Nothing. That’s right…nothing.Tolerance is a much better concept to learn….and that poem shows she has a long way to go…but she’s only seven.But by all means be sure to share her ‘diversity’ training with the colleges she applies to…they won’t care. They will care about the dry-as-dust boring old things like test scores and grades.
The sixties are over…though I realize all of Seattle has not grasped that concept yet….they are…OVER. And you can’t make up your own rules as you go along because that makes them better. That’s just silly. I grew up in marin county…you can’t get anymore enlightened than that….with a bunch of friends with names like wildstar, and ocean…really. Their parents thought they could re-invent the wheel too. Then reality hit with college and life…..
But, as I said, I have raised three [great if I do say so myself] sons that are all in college right now….so I guess you could say I did my research. And you are a flyweight in this department. If you don’t want to believe me that is your choice obviously….I just hope you remember I said this someday about 10 or 11 years from now……….. :)
xmas @ 70
You may have three kids in college right now but you sure are pretty ignorant about kids.
All kids are unique and should never be force-fed an education. That’s violence. My youngest son is six and is learning to read and spell right now pretty much on the same schedule as I did. My oldest son took to reading way earlier – three! At four his favorite reading was car license plates, insignia and street signs – he could name the make and model of any car on the street. Is he a genius? No. He seems like an ordinary kid to me or anyone else.
My kids go to an alternative school in Seattle with a bright, dedicated teaching staff and it is liberal as hell. I’m damn proud of it. I wish I could film the school hall on a typical day and stream it. It would make any righties’ hair curl. In this school my kids are free to learn at their own pace and in their own way. That’s freedom pal! Deal with it!
So leave Goldy and his kid alone – A-hole!
Wow…with reasoning powers like that you stun me. Geez…really, who are you kidding? That’s the best you can do? Once again…name calling, no discussion and the shock value added:
“I wish I could film the school hall on a typical day and stream it. It would make any righties’ hair curl”
Sad that you are so busy “acting out” that you are not paying attention to the world[and facts ]around you and your children. But, by all means, keep up the brilliant reasoning powers that are almost blinding ……..
How can a ‘school’ be “liberal as hell”?
Is a grade school there to amuse and placate YOU or teach your children to read and write?
Hmmmmm…ignorant about kids? No….I’m not.
I’m not the one that is looking to live vicariously through my kids by sending them to a politically motivated school…reading be damned.And this next line of yours…are you serious? Helping and expecting kids to learn is violence? Are you simple? Do you live in the real world?
If you were a really good parent you would stop using your kids as political hand puppets for yourself…and worry more about their future…..you know, in that scary real world.
“All kids are unique and should never be force-fed an education. That’s violence.” WOW….now that’s a brilliant statement…..whew….
xmas @ 71
Nice little fantasy you got goin’ there about me and my kids together with Goldy and his kid.
Nice fantasy about tolerance.
Nice fantasy about the sixties.
Nice fantasy about remembering your memorable words.
Nice fantasy about logic and reason.
Now flip on the Limbaugh and turn up the Faux News!
Some of the Greats of our time contributed to our society by their inventions and other scientific discoverys, these Greats daydreamed during class, flunked school or dropped out. Creative schools teach children lessons along with allowing room for creative expression to flow freely. They don’t push the river. Some children will over-excell in one area and are more lax in another area. No biggie! It all coes out in the wash. I don’t think Goldy’s Jewish momma raised any stupid kids and Goldy won’t either.
cg @ 72 – Wow. I thought that your comments were pretty reasonable. I am still waiting for a single “liberal” to let me know what Mr. Clinton’s true legacy is, in a nice, kind, respectful manner of course. I suspect that you will be waiting for a reasonable response longer than, well, let’s put it this way – California will probably be ocean front property before you receive one.
ZAPPORO@75…….don’t hold your breath. If they can’t answer with NAH NAH NAH…or vulgar and unimaginative language they don’t answer at all.That’s what really makes me laugh with all this “if I teach my child manners and how to read all their creativity will go down the drain” What creativity? If this group of lefties is any example….liberal schools didn’t help…….
And stop teasing me…California is already ocean front property….unlike Terra Haute on the sound [Seattle]….
christmasghost @73,
What… no apology for jumping the gun and falsely accusing me of not sending my daughter to public schools, and thus being a hypocritical liberal?
As to my daughter’s education, that’s my business, not yours… and I think I know her learning style a little better than you do. FYI, I myself was the product of a non-traditional school, open classrooms, and I still managed to get a good enough education to get myself into an Ivy League school.
Xmas @ 76
Hi A-hole! Guess what I went to a Catholic school in the sixties when I was a kid. I was “force-fed” an education and yes I experienced and witnessed violence. Was that liberal? Have you ever been taught by a Catholic nun? Do they strike you as liberal people? Yeah, I learned but I hated it. After I was confirmed, our family moved to the 1st ring ‘burbs and I went to public school. I’ve barely stepped in a church since.
So my kids now are attending a liberal progressive alternative school. They are learning to read, write and calculate. They are also learning about wetland ecology, zoology, local history, art, music and drama. The school has a music and art teacher that the parents pay for. My kids wake up every morning excited to go to school in great contrast to my own experience.
“if I teach my child manners and how to read all their creativity will go down the drain”
An obnoxious, ignorant-ass statement if I ever read one.
Goldy@ 77……..an apology? For what? did you, or did you not PAY for the montessori school? It doesn’t matter for how long it was, does it? And didn’t you make your daughter’s education an issue here? I am sorry if you thought, somehow, that I was attacking your daughter in any way….actually I was going after the public schools in this state. Let’s see…where do they rate again? 48th? And all this after over twenty years of democrat control. So why isn’t this state a paradise full of great schools and with no budget problems? Instead of a state that is in deep trouble, with mounting credibility problems and a 30% percent drop out rate?
And ivy league…so are you implying that that somehow makes you superior? Careful your closet elitist is showing again…….
Bill O’reilly went to an ivy league school too….doesn’t impress me. As to you being the product of a non traditional school. Well, that’s nice. Is that where you learned to use vulgar language as shock therapy in written form?
And don’t be so snarky…of course you know your daughter much better than I do. but as one parent to another…someday she WON’T thank you for publishing that poem….be sure to tell her that the statute of limitations on parental war crimes is up….it always works…….lighten up.
“As to my daughter’s education, that’s my business, not yours… and I think I know her learning style a little better than you do. FYI, I myself was the product of a non-traditional school, open classrooms, and I still managed to get a good enough education to get myself into an Ivy League school.”
JOHN @78……..How did we get to church? It sounds like you had a horrible experience with catholic school….not surprising at all. My husband has the same story, however he always manages to not be vulgar and he also realized that catholic school and public schools are two different things.The way you link learning to violence is sad and bizarre……..
The way you describe the school your kids go to is the way all schools should be [and used to be where I grew up] with one big difference. Can either you or Goldy explain to me why a 5, 6, or 7 year old should be indoctrinated with political views? Is this propaganda 101? Have either of you even wrapped your minds around what you are doing? You are not teaching them to think….you are teaching them to think like you……..
Christmasghost–
These Leftists are often arrogant and have HUGE character flaws that they somehow try to CURE thru their children..
They feel guilty about creating broken homes & families but then lash out about what grand parents they are and how much they really care about their kids blah, blah, blah.
Consider the source in these stories.
Dragging young children into political discussions is absolutely wrong, wrong, wrong. These LEFTY’s are so insecure, they often put undo pressure on their children to become THEIR FRIEND!!
It’s ridiculous but you will never, ever convince them of that.
WHY?
Because they are guilt-ridden about what they have done to their families!!!!! Arrogant, selfish, big ego’s etc. etc. etc.
Educated IDIOTS!!
Mr.Cynical @81.I never cease to be amazed at the hate and personal attacks either. And the fact that none of them seem to be able to keep their stories straight……..
Now, Now Christmasghost–
We need to be more sensitive to their fragile LEFTIST self-esteem.
They obviously tap-dance around the issues and then when you corner them WAAAAAAAAAAAH! They start bawling like Pauly-Wallowy Berendt, their spiritual whiner!
These LEFTIST whacko’s preach “civility” and scream about being offended at every turn. The only LEFTIST Whack-o who is tough to offend is Attorney Don….but I even got him to pop several times.
LEFTISTS are good for 2 things–
1) Someone for us to kick around
2) Keep psycho-therapists busy.
xmas @ 82
And I never cease to be amazed at righties who sit on a high horse and look down their noses at liberals in forums like this one making completely uninformed and slanderous judgements.
You make assumptions about Goldy’s daughter’s education.
You assume Goldy and I fill our kid’s heads with crap about people and points of view we disagree with instead of allowing them to make up their own minds.
You throw taunts about the sixties and Seattle.
And then you have the arrogance and conceit to wag your finger and say “mark my words! Remember them 11 years from now!”.
You wonder why we show a little surly attitude, a little vulgarity?
Look in the mirror x-mas! “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?”
P.S.: My kids go to a public school IN SEATTLE!
You assume Goldy and I fill our kid’s heads with crap about people and points of view we disagree with instead of allowing them to make up their own minds. -Comment by John— 3/15/05 @ 11:04 pm
Very few kids under the age of 16 are capable of digesting ALL the facts in order to truly “make up their own minds”. Ever witness a kid trying to decide what color popsicle to choose? Ever see a teens room after attempting to decide what to where? Or how they choose for whom to vote as class president or best friend of the moment? That is why they are supposed to be raised and guided, let me repeat: raised and guided, NOT INDOCTRINATED, by adults.
If you grant that YOUR kids are capable enough to make up their own minds, can we then assume you’ll have no problem when little 9 year old daughter makes up her mind to play the fun “Clinton” game in the school bathroom? Or when 13 yr old son makes up his mind he really wants and needs that tattoo on his left cheek? Or precocious new driver hanging at that biker bar? Or, God forbid, when those smart, debating teenagers decide (“make up their own mind”) abortion is wrong, abstinence is right and WOW those conservatives just might be on to something?
Speaking of psycho-therapists, as Mr. Cynical posted @ 83 under (2), it appears that those who harbor poo poo and nah nah are projecting their poo poo amd nah nah style onto others, can’t look upon look at their own poo poo and nah nah. Ill-mannered personal attacks shows up as not having a clue about what the differance is between introspection and projecting. Learning to own your own poo poo and nah nah is the very first step in therapy Course, those stuck in their poo poo and nah nah rut poo poo and nah nah psycotherapy also. As the old saying goes and holds true, “you can’t reason with ignorance.”
John@84. Right you are John. Religion, way back when, touched on the subject you have presented in your post; re removing the beam from your own eye first before you try to remove the speck from other’s eyes. That is what all psycho-therapy and counseling is all about. Owning up and increasing your awareness. Acting more civilized than animal.
Zap@75; Appears that you or ghost don’t know the meaning of “RESPONIBLE” when you misuse the word. That may be why you both think their is no reason to be otherwise. As Goldy once pointed out while on topic, pointed slang or humor used with descretion are acceptable. That is fair berth for fair debate. POINT BLANK! Neither of you, have shown the respect due the blog administrator, posters or readers.
typo@ 88 corrected: “RESPONSIBLE”.
CHEE @88…..Do you have a point here? “The respect due to blog posters?” I thought we were having a discussion here, not a glee club meeting. Of course it is painfully obvious that not only do none of you know the meaning of the word ‘responsible’…you also can’t grasp the concept of discussion. Which is not a conversation between two people who agree with each other on everything. It means people are ‘discussing’ different points of view.You should try it sometime……
And the concept of free speech ring any bells for you? And you write for the stranger? So random acts of vugarity are okay….opinions based on reality is not????
“Zap@75; Appears that you or ghost don’t know the meaning of “RESPONIBLE” when you misuse the word. That may be why you both think their is no reason to be otherwise. As Goldy once pointed out while on topic, pointed slang or humor used with descretion are acceptable. That is fair berth for fair debate. POINT BLANK! Neither of you, have shown the respect due the blog administrator, posters or readers.”
Comment by Chee— 3/16/05 @ 9:47 am
anon @ 85
You’re a treat. You’re mind is full of colorful fantasies inspired by the graphic writings of Kenneth Starr. Well he had his day, you had your fun chortling at his crowning achievement and I’m glad that he lost and that he and the horse he rode in on is out of the MSM.
So why should I go on? Any common ground we have is squandered when you spout any number of perennial right-wing chestnuts or make any number of ridiculous presumptions. By the way now that we’re part way into Bush’s second term is Rush Limbaugh still blaming everything bad on Bill Clinton or musing about the first dog in the White House?
Yes, our primary duty as parents is to keep our children safe. The stakes get higher as they get older but part of raising kids is allowing them to make mistakes and experience the consequences of their own choices.
I’ve seen bad things happen to teenagers and I’ve also seen parents blame everything under the sun but themselves including parents who espouse so-called “conservative” views. So I intend to keep my sons safe and I also vow to accept my share of the blame if and when I get too complacent or distracted.
“Neither of you, have shown the respect due the blog administrator, posters or readers.” Okay Chee…I’ll bite…prove it.
I can think of great examples of kids clearly allowed “to make up their own minds” and indoctrinated instead of raised and guided by adults.
Karen Carpenter – died of anorexia: WHERE WERE THE RESPONSIBLE ADULTS IN HER LIFE SHE NEEDED TO SHOW HER THE “DECISION SHE WAS MAKING” WAS A VERY BAD ONE?
Mary Kay Olson – anorexic and bulemic: nearly died: WHERE WERE THE RESPONSIBLE ADULTS IN HER LIFE TO SHOW HER THE “DECISION SHE WAS MAKING” WAS A VERY BAD ONE?
Rachel Corrie – encouraged and supported when she naively (stupidly) “made up her mind” to enter a war zone: WHERE WERE THE RESPONSIBLE ADULTS IN HER LIFE TO SHOW HER THE “DECISION SHE WAS MAKING” WAS A VERY BAD ONE?
I guess when you hold that morality, right/wrong, good/bad are situational and subjective to the convenience of the moment you have no moral authority. YOUR kids are going to “do as you do and NOT as you say” and you had better damned well be prepared for when their proud moral relativist decisions clash with your proudly held moral relativism as it inevitably and surely will.
I pray for your children, that it ends happier than it did for those dead young women mentioned above.
Anon–
Rachel Corrie’s family is now suing Caterpillar Tractor.
That kind of explains why she ended up the way she did, huh?
They’re also suing Israel.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/ha.....52520.html
Amazing that EVERYONE is to blame … except that poor stupidly misguided young woman.
Best of the Web Today – March 16, 2005
By JAMES TARANTO
Yesterday
“The brutal death of my daughter should never have happened,” Corrie’s mother, Cindy Corrie, said in a statement released by the Center for Constitutional Rights, a law firm handling the case. “We believe Caterpillar and the (Israeli Defense Forces) must be held accountable for their role in the attack.”
The lawsuit, according to the AP, “alleges that Caterpillar violated international and state law by providing specially designed bulldozers to Israeli Defense Forces that it knew would be used to demolish homes and endanger people.”
Of course, Israel was using the bulldozer not to “demolish homes and endanger people” but to destroy a tunnel that Palestinian Arab terrorists were using to smuggle in weapons from Egypt, for the purpose of murdering Israeli civilians.
One of the reasons Corrie’s death was a tragedy is that, although she was an adult, she was young enough (23) that one could imagine her eventually outgrowing and coming to regret her juvenile hatreds. Her parents, however, ought to know better.