This is on domestic issues.
6:04: The economy. Jobs. What are the major differences between the two of you about how you would go about creating jobs.
– Obama: 4 years ago, we went through the worst financial crisis since the depression. We’ve begun to fight our way back. The auto industry and housing are coming back. Romney’s perspective is if we cut taxes, skew to the wealthy, we’ll be better off. I think we have to invest in energy and education. Fix the tax code to help people who invest in America. Are we going to double down on the old policies that got us into this mess?
– Romney: I’ve met people across the country. Mentioning swing states. Can you help us? The answer is yes. Get energy independent, open trade, make sure people have the best skills and education, balance the budget, champion small business. Complains about big government without mentioning that shrinking government is part of the problem (in the recession).
6:10: Obama wants to lower corporate taxes. Lovely. Fucking lovely. And he’s being a deficit hawk. Boo.
6:13: Romney is talking about clean coal. So that’s a lie, because that doesn’t exist.
6:14: Obama is now talking about tax cuts for the middle class. Sure. Now he’s going after Romney’s tax plan because there aren’t the specifics about the loopholes that he says he supports.
6:18: Romney is saying he won’t add to the deficit. But the math doesn’t really work.
6:19: Obama: “Romney’s big bold idea is ‘never mind.'” My tax plan lowered taxes for 98% of small businesses and families, but for incomes over $250,000 we should go back to the rates under Clinton.
6:21: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
6:23: Obama: The approach Governor Romney is talking about is the same that was tried in 2001 and 2003.
6:24: Romney is whining about not having the last word.
What to do about the federal debt. My answer is don’t care until we’re out of a recession.
6:27: Romney: The debt is immoral. Raising taxes slows down the rate of growth. I want to cut spending. He doesn’t seem to realize that cutting spending hurts the economy.
6:28: Obama: When I came into office we had 2 wars that weren’t paid for, 2 tax cuts that weren’t paid for and an economic crash. Now we’ve cut discretionary budget the most since Ike. $2.50 in cuts for every $1 of income.
6:31: Romney says Obama should have supported Simpson Bowles, but his plan isn’t Simpson Bowles.
6:34: Obama is going after the oil companies’ corporate welfare “when they’re making a profit every time you’re at the pump.” Don’t take a deduction for moving a plant overseas.
6:37: If you drink every time one of these people mentions a swing state or a city in one, enjoy blacking out.
6:38: Is Romney joking about how he shipped jobs overseas and didn’t get enough of a tax cut???????
Entitlements. Do you see a major difference on Social Security?
6:40: Obama: Social Security’s basic structure is sound, but it may need some tweaks. My grand mother raised me, and she ended up living alone by choice. The reason she could be independent is Medicare and Medicaid. And that’s what I think of when people talk about entitlements. So strengthen the system over the long term. Don’t overpay insurance companies or providers. Use that money to lower drug costs to seniors and preventive care.
6:43: Romney: Neither the president nor I are proposing any changes for retirees or near retirees. So stop listening. Now he’s saying Obama cut Social Security. I doubt he’ll mention that it’s the same as his VP proposed.
6:44: Obama: I think it’s important for governor Romney to present his plan. It’s called premium support, but it’s actually a voucher program. If you’re 54 or 55, you should listen because it will effect you. You can have a voucher, but it won’t keep up with inflation.
6:46: I have become fond of that phrase Obamacare. If you repeal it, seniors will be harmed, and insurance companies will be the primary beneficiaries.
6:48: Romney is talking about means testing for Medicare. Boo.
On the economy: What is your view on federal regulation? Should there be more?
6:52: Romney says regulation is important, at the same time it can become excessive. It can become out of date, and hurt the economy. Dodd Frank designates banks too big to fail (?). I would repeal and replace it. He doesn’t say what he’ll replace it with (but he does say he’ll keep some of it).
6:54: Obama: We had excesses from all sectors. So we had the toughest reforms since the 1930’s. We made sure all the help was paid back with interest. Does anybody think the problem is we had too much regulation of Wall Street?
6:56: Romney:Try to get a loan today. As if loans were easy to get before Dodd Frank.
Do you want to repeal health reform?
6:57: Romney: Health care is too expensive. Craft a plan at the state level, and get costs down.
6:59: Obama: When I was running for office, people weren’t able to get insurance. Families would go bankrupt if they got sick. If they had a preexisting condition they couldn’t get coverage. There might be an arbitrary limit. We worked on this and on jobs. If you’ve got health insurance, companies can’t jerk you around. If you don’t have insurance, you can essentially have a group rate. The irony is we’ve seen this model work well in Massachusetts.
7:02: Romney: In my state Republicans and Democrats worked together. OK, fine, but why didn’t he ask other Republicans to work with Democrats?
7:03: Romney: A president has to work across the aisle. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
7:04: Romney: The Democratic legislators in Mass could give some advice to Republicans in Congress about working across the aisle.
7:06: I was hoping for more zingers.
7:08: Are there any clinics not in swing states?
7:11: Obama: Romney will replace it but won’t tell you what he’ll replace it with. We don’t know the details of his tax plan, of his replacement of Dodd Frank, of repeal of Obamacare. Is he doing this because his plans are too good? No.
The role of government. Do you believe there’s a difference as to how you view the mission of the Federal government.
7:14: Obama: The first role of government is to keep people safe. But also, the Federal government can create the opportunities. There are some things we can do as individuals, but there are some things we can do together. Now he’s talking about Race to the Top. Boo, again.
7:15: Romney: I love great schools. Every state should make the decision on their own. The pursuit of happiness means something something God.
7:18 All federal funds should follow the child, not to the school district.
7:19: Obama: The Ryan budget would cut the education budget by 20%.
7:22: Obama: We’ve cut out the middle men on student loans. Our priorities make a difference.
7:23: I hope that “your own facts” line wasn’t his zinger.
A meta question about partisanship.
7:25: Romney: Since I worked with Democrats when they were 87% of the Mass legislature, I can totally work with them in Congress.
7:26: Obama: I’ll work with anyone as long as they have good ideas for building the middle class.
Closing statements:
7:28: Obama: Thank you and Romney. This was a terrific debate. 4 years ago we were going through an crisis. I still believe in lots of people in swing states. Make sure everyone has a fair share and plays by the same rules. I fought every day for the middle class and those trying to get into the middle class.
7:30: Romney: This is about the course of America. There are two paths and they lead in 2 different directions. I’ll get incomes up again. If I’m president I’ll create 12 Million jobs. If Obama is elected, Obamacare will be installed, and there will be a made up amount of health care premium increase.
7:33: I actually think this was a pretty good debate. People had a chance to get into the weeds a bit, but there was some real discussion. I’ve edited it a bit to make it more clear who was saying what.
Didn’t plan on watching the moderated scripted sound-bite event, but here I am. Probably should have poured myself a vodka on the rocks for this…
Romney’s 5 point plan sounds good, but he doesn’t have anything to back it up.
I wouldn’t call oil and gas production being the highest they’ve been in years a good thing.
Oil companies have all sorts of drilling permits that they’re not using. Restricting drilling isn’t an issue, Mitt.
Never seen a clean mountain top removal mine. Coal is bullshit and we need to get away from it.
I loved that one.
Actually agree that we need to cut exemptions and lower the overall tax rate.
Obama’s taking Romney to the woodshed and I’m headed to the kitchen for dinner.
Romney’s full of shit on Medicade. I worked with those families with autistic kids/adults in them for 17 years and it works just fine.
RmoneyBot has a memory leak causing performance issues.
Sounds like Romney doesn’t have a clue of how Medicare works.
OMG!!! Death Panels!!!
Well, I’m out.
Why should he? He’s not the least bit interested in making Medicare work right.
He’s interested in how we best move ALL THE MONEY to the FEWEST PEOPLE, him among them.
What’s with the flag lapel pin that the Repubs are wearing that look like the American flag with a big hole blown in it?
Obama has a regular flag pin, but Romeny has this one with the big block blotch on it. What gives?
(BTW, I find the whole mandatory flag lapel pin to be ridiculous)
I think I heard a ZINGER!
Romney taking credit for excellent Massachusetts schools – UGH!
I was running errands and dropped by the local supermarket..
It was a ghost town.. People are really interested in this debate..
While running around, I listened on the radio..
Funny how Romney often says “I agree with the President”..
I thought Romney is a [vulture] capitalist, a “severe conservative” and Obama is a muslim, Kenyan/son of a communist.
Why should Romney agree with anything the President says or does?
Romney said we need a program to grade schools – isn’t that a GIGANTIC expansion of the Federal Government?
So…no health care, no OSHA, no financial regulation, but a massive defense budget and inspectors for every uterus and every classroom??
That’s small government?
I didn’t hear the MA schools thing, but a couple of friends of mine are teachers in MA schools and they’re saying Romney’s full of shit on that one.
And that worked so well with the Republican base for Jon Huntsman…
@18
Because he’s lying. He lied recurrently about his tax plan, it was shameless. He’s depending on the transitive property of coolness, and wants to be cozying up to Obama, just as good, just not black.
It’ll sell to the hicks.
Heh. Romney’s “promise” of creating 12 million new jobs should work out just as well as Walker’s “promise” in WI.. – uh… it’ll have to wait till “after the election..”..
Same freaking right wing policies.. Why should the outcome be all that different???
Romney said he likes Big Bird but doesn’t want to keep borrowing money from China.. So PBS is cut off.
Well there goes that Iran war.. Iran gets a lot of oil from Iran..
Why should China fund the next Republican war?
I’m sure the Fed will print the money for it once Willard replaces Bernanke with Mankiw..
Bottom line, Slick Willard didn’t obviously fail but 11th dimensional chess dictates it wasn’t good enough in a two out of three fall match.
@15. Liberal Scientist is a Dirty Fucking Socialist Hippie:
Hmm… That looks to me to be a Confederate States bullet hole.
But I found this, which suggests it’s the GOP desecrating the American flag with their “hands off my property” brand:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/.....n-flag-pin
This posting actually has the zoomed-in “closer-up”:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/.....rican-Flag
This image appears to show that it actually is a bullet-hole type desecration:
http://www.pincentives.com/pro....._88087.jpg
This was the etch-a-sketch moment for Willard..
Some right wing caller on C-SPAN was offended at Willard’s remarks about regulation…
I love it when they eat each other!
It was a snoozer debate, therefore the advantage today goes to Romney. But the 0.5 point boost Romney gets probably won’t last through the weekend.
Romney sounded like “Obama Lite” but with some hand-waving to reduce the tax rate for people who own significant property. However, he emphasizes that while giving with the “tax hand”, he’ll taketh away with the “no deductions” hand. Why? If there’s no net difference, why fuck with it? Just for the hell of it?
Ho-hum… Obama is safer.
Advantage at the voting booth goes to Obama, I guess. Boring vs. boring goes to the incumbent.
@ 2 ” Romney’s 5 point plan sounds good, but he doesn’t have anything to back it up”
HaHa, unlike Obama’s “yes, we can” and “hope and change” back in 2008? Meanwhile we have 4 years of Obama broken promises with a self assessed report card of “incomplete”. Hilarious!! This is why you don’t send an janitor to perform a CEO’s duties.
Romney will work with Congress where the assclown in chief will not. Better stock up on the alcohol kiddies, Romney owned obama tonight and everyone is willing enough to admit it. This was a chitown beatdown in Denver!
@29
Why does every comment have to have an equivalence?
@ 27
’bout time you uploaded a self portrait as your avatar, YLB! haha. If Liberalism is really a mental disorder, you are exhibit A.
Obama tried to work with congress, the Republicans in congress not only refused to work with Obama they refused to work with their own leadership.
@ 32- Obama has chose to define bipartisanship as agreeing with policies that Obama and the Democrats have proposed. That is not someone who “tried to work with congress”.
That’s the reality on the ground and with 39 days out, I think Independents are waking up that “hope and change” and other 4 grade sloganeering won’t work this time around. That’s all for tonight.
@ 18
Why should Romney agree with anything the President says or does?
Because he’s not what you make him out to be.
Yes, he’s tacked right, which works for at least two reasons:
1. He needs the more hardline conservatives. And for the past few months he’s had them.
2. Independents are willing to let it happen if it gets someone in who can do the job.
Don’t forget that Obama tacked to the center in the 2008 election so as not to frighten people. That’s what happens in elections.
Romney is one of the less conservative of the former GOP presidential candidates. He’s not going to govern the way he campaigns, just as Obama has not governed the way he campaigned.
Try hating a little less and listening a little more. I heard the debate on the radio and both men impressed me. I think they both brought their A game to the extent possible and it’s too bad this didn’t go for three hours because they both had the material to make it happen if it could.
CNN-ORC flash poll regarding debate performance:
Romney 67%
Obama 25%
Ouch.
CBS Instapoll:
Romney 46%
Obama 22%
Tie 32%
Apparently Chris Matthews does not agree that Obama performed well.
Pity.
What’s the opposite of a leg tingle?
How Bob misses the point! I’m talking about what right wing degenerates make Obama out to be..
And it was Romney who called himself a “severe conservative” and other right wing idiots who called Obama a socialist and Romney, the father of Romneycare, some kind of supercapitalist (after they settled for him).
Heh. Romney in this debate is doing the etch-a-sketch and Bob is too blind to see it.
Bill Maher… Obummer needs a teleprompter! HAHAHAHA!
So much for rael and meme1 and their screeches earlier this week! What happened Fascist Fool?
CORRECTED!
awwww.. Little Ricky dumbass is still going on about my gravatar.. typical of a little schoolboy mentality.
Wrong again little ricky – it’s a mirror..
Chris Matthews got a tingle?
Real class act, Team Obama. “It was the moderator’s fault.”
http://www.politico.com/blogs/.....37444.html
Chris Matthews.
Now on PMSNBC they are covering for Obummer’s butt. Howard Fineman crying the blues!
This might be the Tweet of the Night:
Matt Welch
@mleewelch
RT @Heminator That wasn’t a debate so much as Mitt Romney just took Obama for a cross country drive strapped to the roof of his car.
Chris Matthews
Can someone explain to me why Barack Obama brought up The Donald?
Not quite as bad as Carter bringing up his daughter Amy but every bit as irrelevant.
Chris Matthews, Obummer watches you guys all the time.
Because The Donald went after Obummer’s birth certificate!
Obummer was UNREADY!
Memory check:
I’m not suggesting the election is over. But it looks like Romney has an almost insurmountable task ahead of him if he is to leave the rolls of the unemployed.
Looks like Romney isn’t the evil wife killer that Obummer claimed!
What did Obummer claim Obummer would do with a second term with positive and clear details? Obummer didn’t deliver anything that matters!
An unhappy Lawrence O’Donnell
MSNBC has all their leftists on their show right now! Oh no the enthusiasm gap is coming up!
Weigel, like Romney, is sort of a fake conservative.
daveweigelVerified
@daveweigel
67% of people in CNN poll say Romney did the best job. Highest # in history of the poll.
Alex Castellanos
Somebody must have been watching an Obama/McCain rerun:
“Look, Romney was always going to have a good night on style points,” conceded Obama campaign manager Jim Messina, who still judged his boss to be the winner. “I’ve been telling you guys that for a very long time, but look, we won this debate tonight because we talked directly to the American people about plans. Romney couldn’t do it. He stayed on defense the entire time. He couldn’t lay out a tax plan that made any sense. You know he spent a bunch of time trying to defend his Medicare positions in states like Ohio and Florida; that’s gonna be a real problem for him.”
http://dyn.politico.com/prints.....6006B47F68
.
LMAO!! A “fake conservative” for Pres they now say..
No worries he has a flim-flam man in the Veep slot to keep him on the straight and narrow..
@iowahawk
“Breaking: Choom Gang revokes Obama’s membership.”
@39,
No screeches Spuddy, just pointing out what a lying shitsucker you are.
And, debates have a poor record of deciding elections (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/.....nixon.html).
I was just thinking…….
This might be the second time John Kerry has blown an election for the Democrats.
Wow,
On Think Progress they ain’t too happy!
Kos called it a loss!
DUMMOCRAPTIC Underground isn’t happy!
PMSNBC queues in with Obummer commentary. Man they carry this preznit’s water BIG TIME!
@60
And, debates have a poor record of deciding elections
Yes, but…..
“It was a thumpin’.”
Meme1,
Still sucking alimentary byproducts from the Obummer bunghole from the inside!
James Carville
Know who else had a good night tonite?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....26744.html
The GOP’s best surrogate.
Sarah who?
Bill Maher
Business Insider
Wow Intrade has a new perspective.
@64,
Spuddy, you’re never going to turn your shitsucking ways around on anyone else; same for your goat fucking.
Joe Biden must be sleeping well tonite in full knowledge of the fact that Paul Ryan’s command of numbers and data isn’t nearly as well-known or polished as Romney’s.
At the end of the debate we’re still left wondering “who the fuck is Mitt Romney.”
Romney did well in the debate, but the positions he took tonight aren’t backed up by what he’s been saying before tonight. If tonight’s performance reinforced anything it’s that Romney’s the flip-flopping etch-a-sketch candidate who has trouble with his base.
@63,
Not arguing that, ironic though that Kerry did the same to GWB on the first debate…. remind me how that ended again?
Best line of the night!
From the liberals over at Forbes.
Only you HA leftists are still thinking that! That’s because leftists like you Michael have been like meme1… eating the alimentary tract by-products of DUMMOCRAPTIC left wrong web sites!
@69,
Yeah, now Rmnoney’s only losing about two thirds of the time; and the saddest part is for you that’s actually a victory.
Up from 22% :)
(Deleted – rehash of @ 69)
Washington Times
@ 75
You know, when I read ‘writing for the liberals at Forbes’ I figured you were being snarky.
Turns out you were being accurate:
Rick Ungar, Contributor
Writing from the left on politics and policy.
Heh. These right wingers can’t see for the trees..
Savor this night..
Fools!
@34. Serial conservative
I agree with that–And then Obama moved back toward the right in actual governance, once he was elected. Campaigning, he was an ultra-left progressive; once in office, he became center-right. Very much like Bill Clinton:
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-sear.....l=GooglePM
TOWARD THE RIGHT?
Yeah sure whatever!
Where is the dunceman?
MIA!
@ 82
“Campaigning, he was an ultra-left progressive; once in office, he became center-right.”
It’s amazing how different perspectives can be. I didn’t think an ultra-left progressive would be against gay marriage, as Obama was. I didn’t think an ultra-left progressive would be against eliminating Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. Why would an ultra-left progressive champion tax cuts? Visit Israel? Disown a former ultra-left progressive mentor on a national stage, as he did Rev. Wright?
Obama might have moved to the right of you once in office. He sure as hell didn’t move to the right in the eyes of most of America.
@83. Puddybud spews
Are you saying Obama let the Bush tax cuts expire?
Y’all predicted Obummer was going down…
AND
Yeah, the standard sewer delivery from the dunceman!
Oh poor Dave… Obummer said you don’t raise taxes in a recession. So he didn’t. If you feel so compelled, pay more taxes Dave!
Poll number of the night most likely to cause Obama to have to change his shorts:
Mark Knoller
✔
@markknoller
Poll shows Romney narrowed gap on empathy. 63% now say Romney cares about their needs and problems (up from 30% before debate.)
@89,
Statistically, you are describing responses from a sample of people in one room.
That sort of invalidates the results if you are mathematically minded, and care about sample size.
The real question at this point is whether this poll filters down into the national and state polls; and if so, by how much.
@85. Serial conservative
He did not campaign against marriage equality. He was pretty much a centrist on the fence:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/20.....riage.html
This supports my contention: Obama campaigned as a lefty, promising to eliminate Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. But failed to act on it for years, doing nothing until decorated military gay rights activists in the military forced the issue by coming-out publicly and risking their military careers.
Tax cutting is neither left-wing nor right-wing. Taxes are paying what you owe. This is the bastardization of conservativism that the socialists in the current Republican party have brain-washed America with. It’s cutting SPENDING that is conservative. At any rate, Obama campaigned on the left-wing agenda of cutting taxes for the middle class only. Instead, after he took office, he cut taxes for everyone.
WTF? What has that to do with anything but religion and/or bipartisan foreign policy?
WTF? What has that to do with anything but being a typical politician? I realize a lot of people like to think that their preferred party is full of people who are angelic non-politicians. I never accuse a politician of not being a politician. That’s just being a Pollyanna.
This is the sound of an obese man panicking:
Michael Moore @MMFlint
“President Romney?” Anybody worried now? Get it the F together, Team Obama. And the rest of us? What are WE doing tomorrow?
Stephanie Cutter commentary……
@ 91
This supports my contention: Obama campaigned as a lefty, promising to eliminate Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.
Correct. I misremembered. Thanks.
Owebamma can tilt right, but his radical left is already well established. So there will be no place to hide by November. Romney (despite what this site reports on him) is a very competent person to take the helm. He showed it this evening. This Hopey Changey thing is not working. We are at the same debt level as Spain, and all the Simpson Boles should a beens have been ignored by this administration. It’s time for NEW leadership, and Romney this evening was kicked royal butt!
88. Puddybud
I think you’re responding to some other comment? Because what you said has nothing to do with anything I wrote–other than to substantiate one argument supporting my point that Obama campaigned as a lib and then moved to the right after he was elected. According to you–for whatever reason–Obama did, in actual practice, extend the Bush tax cut vs. his left-wing campaign promise not to.
The fact that I’m not a former LSD brain-fried hippie wacko like you, by the way, bears no indication of my conservative views, either pro or con.
@94. Serial conservative
Oh shit… Reasonable give-and-take discussion. We probably shouldn’t be on horsesass, eh? ;-)
Speaking of which, signing-off (I’m on the East Coast).
@95 Dave,
Obummer realized his 2008 campaign “promise” would hurt the economy. Obummer was right. More taxes would hurt the economy. Butt, other actions like hiring 17 lobbyists within his first fortnight; not televising health care at all; having 120 hours of public comment before signing any bills were failures too!
You must be a new fool around here. Puddy known on this blog as a non-druggie, non-smoker and a non-drinker!
I guess it sucks to be you. Going to bed now Dave. Going to have sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet dreams!
Many of the stupidest Americans have some single issue like race, woman’s rights, gay rights, abortion, death penalty, you name the issue that is key to their vote. But the issue at the end of the day is really Debt and deficits. 6,000 Billion of new deficit spending in 4 years is not just wrong, it is IDIOCRACY! America better wake up, and wake up soon, or it will be woke up abruptly with anarchy!
Best Line of the evening debate “Trickle Down Government”
@97. Puddybud
I said FORMER LSD mainliner. I’m sure you can’t remember those days anymore.
Again, you’re not addressing the contention that Obama campaigned a lib and then turned to the right after getting elected. All you’re saying is that he’s a typical politician.
After four years, Obama with no clothes just isn’t a leg-tingling image for many people anymore.
But they couldn’t save him when it mattered most. They made the campaign about gaffes and polls, which are of no use in a debate. They lambasted Romney, man of the 59-point job plan, for lack of detail without ever urging the president to come up with any substantive policy commensurate with the challenges we face.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/....._blog.html
After last night, how many people outside HA and similar bastions of ultraliberalism really give a shit about Romney’s tax returns?
They want competence at the top.
Just as a distraction from the train wreck that was Barack Obama last night, here’s a little snippet from a little place on the East Coast:
Elizabeth Warren’s white great grandfather shot an Indian
The newspaper clipping relates to a story about how Warren’s great grandfather, John H. Crawford, shot a real Indian and was identified in the newspaper as white
http://legalinsurrection.com/2.....an-indian/
“White” is sort of an odd way to describe one of Elizabeth Warren’s Indian relatives, isn’t it? Almost like they weren’t Indian.
Almost.
This is what passes for Hopenchange in Obamaland:
“But I don’t think there’s a great amount of heartache. I think the American people have a high tolerance level for Joe Biden’s antics.”
http://thehill.com/homenews/ca.....off-script
That’s the message from Dems this year. Please tolerate incompetence for another four.
Independents have seen plenty of Obama for the past four years. If they were uncertain about him, he said nothing tonight that was new, nothing that would move people off the fence and into his camp. Romney did.
and
At some point, you become so prepared and so in command of the material that you can simply be yourself. That was Romney tonight.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/p.....al-debate/
In most polls Romney’s already winning independent voters. Now he’ll win more of them.
@104,
In most polls Romney is miles behind, and Rassmussen just said only 17% of voters are effected by debates.
@ 107
“Rassmussen (sic) just said only 17% of voters are effected by debates.”
Fair enough. To the extent you believe this was just any debate.
These comments suggest it wasn’t just any debate:
daveweigelVerified
@daveweigel
67% of people in CNN poll say Romney did the best job. Highest # in history of the poll.
Jan Crawford @JanCBS
Telling numbers: In CBS poll of uncommitted voters after debate, 56% say opinion of Romney changed for the better. 13% say that of Obama.
Some fact checking from Daily Kos
Not that it matters to conservatives.
@ 109
That was funny. Maybe I could post an article on fact-checking from Karl Rove in response, which would be just as relevant as your post.
BTW, regarding Medicare and the ‘cuts’, even on NPR this morning there was agreement that Obamacare cuts money out of Medicare. Their argument is that the money is ‘put back’ elsewhere in the healthcare system.
I suppose that may or may not be true. However, you should note that NPR agrees that Obamacare does cut funds from Medicare. For seniors receiving Medicare, they probably are concerned about that loss of funds and aren’t soothed by the knowledge that they can’t get reimbursed for their ECG because someone has to cover Sandra Fluke’s contraception costs.
ADVANTAGE…
Medicare Advantage.. Which was shown in study after study to be more expensive than classic Medicare..
And hospitals who tend to overutilize..
And why was this done? Why was Paul Ryan such a big fan of this?
Oh! It closes the doughnut hole in Medicare Part D – helping seniors and extends the life of the hospitalization fund out to 2024.
But Willard wants things to go back to their old dysfunctional ways because HMO’s liked it better that way, i.e. more money for them.
Keep throwing that crap against the wall.
Pharmaceutical contraception is often prescribed for conditions other than a need to control fertility..
But since that concerns only the health of women, right wingers like Bob and Rush Limbaugh just want make it all about Sandra and her sex life..
How miserable it is to be right wing.
@ 111
YLB, would be interested in a link if you have one. NPR didn’t mention, to my recollection, that it was Medicare Advantage. Further, in this report
http://www.npr.org/2012/08/31/.....nce-speech
NPR also didn’t make a distinction as to which program Obamacare was affecting. They just termed it Medicare.
I’m not in a position to argue because I don’t have your source.
113 –
http://www.politifact.com/trut.....-medicare/
I’ve posted stuff like this at least half a dozen times in response to this Romney half truth.
How miserable it is to be right wing.
A condom costs about a buck.
It might not be as much fun fucking with a condom. But you’re still fucking.
Not much misery there.
Scanning through Politifact’s fact check of last night’s debate:
http://www.politifact.com/trut.....al-debate/
I conclude Willard is a salesman of half-truths and outright falsehoods.
A voter who values their judgement would be wrong to vote for Willard Romney.
Oh wow Dr Bob! Never knew condoms were an effective treatment for endometriosis.
You just saved taxpayers millions!
@ 114
Now you’re changing the argument – previously, you brought up Medicare Advantage. Since you are now making a different point, I assume you argued incorrectly.
Medicare, which has fewer and fewer participating providers due to poor reimbursement as it is, will further cut reimbursement under Obamacare, and you think there won’t be a deleterious effect on patient care?
If a hospital or a physicial loses money or is insufficiently profitable on Medicare patients now, you think having more of them and being paid less per patient is going to work?
You’re an idiot.
A Medicare cut will affect patient care. Period.
Now it’s your turn to cite no figures or studies.
The waste and abuse in the health care sector stands out like a sore thumb.. Ask anyone who works in it.. The simple fact that health care is one of the largest sectors in the economy if not the largest, way higher in proportion than in any other economy should tell you something.
I believe right wingers are miserable because when a young woman steps up and advocates for women’s health all a right winger sees is a sex object..
Boatloads of condoms couldn’t cure that mental illness.
@108,
“Fair enough. To the extent you believe this was just any debate.”
Just keep telling yourself that.
Or better yet, bet on it. Intrade still has Mitt at about 33%.
@118
Total bullshit.
The $716 billion is roughly equally divided between three areas.
1. Medicare Advantage – experiment in private insurors started under (shhhh!) GWB – because, as Willard said last night, the private economy can do anything government can better and cheaper. It can’t and this is getting cut.
2. Reimbursement to hospitals. Accepted by hospitals because they anticipate more paying customers because of the law will off set need for higher rates of pay – you know, supply/demand stuff. Also, hospitals with high readmission rates will be penalized.
3. Miscellaneous stuff – including less reimbursement for uninsured people (because there will be fewer of them), lower rates of home health reimbursement, and a few other smaller cuts.
The benefits available to Medicare beneficiaries does not change. To my knowledge, payment to doctors does not change.
To my knowledge, you’re talking out your ass again, Cap’n.
@ 122
To my knowledge, payment to doctors does not change.
Lib Despair, reimbursement and payment to doctors are the same thing.
Or maybe Obama plans to pay doctors the same by paying nurses and hospital janitors less. Maybe that’s what you mean.
If you’d pull your head out of your ass you’d hear more. Like Obama saying he’d put back the $716B largely by cutting reimbursement.
Geez, for a guy who has no trouble hearing dog whistles on every complaint about Obama, you’re playing pretty fucking deaf on this issue.
@ 121
Yes, Intrade has Romney down.
However, combine last night’s debate performance, the still-in-the-news Benghazi disaster for Team Obama, and stuff like this:
On Friday, the employment report for September is expected to show another mediocre month of hiring. The U.S. likely created 113,000 jobs, according to economists surveyed by MarketWatch. That’s barely enough to keep up with the natural rise in the working-age population.
Unemployment is projected to edge up to 8.2% from 8.1%, which would mark the 44th month in a row that the jobless rate has topped 8.0%. The last time that happened was during the Great Depression in the 1930s.
http://www.marketwatch.com/sto.....2012-10-04
PLUS the unemployment number due out tomorrow,
and Romney will be sitting a whole lot prettier in another week.
Anyone notice that Obama’s running ads in OR? Why do that if OR is solid blue?
@124,
“Anyone notice that Obama’s running ads in OR? Why do that if OR is solid blue?”
Maybe for the same reason Romney does speeches in PA even though he pulled all advertising from PA?
As for polls, we will know that next week; if you believe what you say, go bet some money on it.
Additionally, last months jobs report was followed by Obama climbing, and that was below 100,000.
@ 125
Additionally, last months jobs report was followed by Obama climbing, and that was below 100,000.
Now, there’s a ringing endorsement.
I did place a bet, with someone on HA. Hopefully he or I will recall after it’s over.
We ALL have a ton of money riding on this election. All of us.
It just won’t be changing hands November 7th.
@126,
No, it’s an observation that your theory doesn’t match up with current trend lines.
@ 127
There’s current before last night. There’s current after 830a EST tomorrow.
Enjoy the poll results currently known.
I’m looking forward. Three more debates, 30+more days.
Oh, and Romney still hasn’t been spending heavily. Although that changes, probably beginning this morning.
@128,
What are you talking about?
You said the jobs report would hurt Obama, I said a previous bad jobs report did not.
Then you made some sarcastic remark about a ringing endorsement.
@ 129
Is there some number of consecutive bad jobs reports, or a trend clearly exhibiting economic decline, after which you will admit that Obama would be harmed?
I believe it starts tomorrow. Actually, I believe he already has been harmed by economic performance, regardless of what you say. You probably are basing your comment on lack of a downward spike in his numbers after a bad number.
My point is that he typically polls with approval under 50%, and that his stewardship of the economy is in no small part responsible. Every bad jobs number keeps his approval rating down.
Last night he had the opportunity to defend himself – the debate was about the economy and economic issues – and he fared poorly.
There’s gotta be a downside to that and it won’t be just on Intrade.
@130,
” You probably are basing your comment on lack of a downward spike in his numbers after a bad number.”
Nope, his numbers went up.
Maybe you noticed RCP put OH in blue shortly after the last jobs report?
@123
Reimbursement to hospitals is quite different than reimbursement to physicians. There are facility charges and practitioner charges. I would have thought that you would have known this, doc.
The $716B savings, as I noted above, came in large part through stopping reimbursement/subsidy to Medicare Advantage insurance companies, and through reduced reimbursement/payment to facilities like hospitals. The latter, both trough overall reduction in rates (agreed to by hospitals because it would be made up through more customers) and through penalties for high readmission rates – a quality incentive program with teeth.
You can be dismissive all you want, Cap’n Crunch, but it’s pretty obvious to all of us that you’re really just a hack with a ready source of Republican talking points, and not a very good one at that.
Putz.
There is a small window of opportunity for Cap’n Crunch to spew his FUD (chew his cud?) after last night’s admittedly poor debate performance by Obama, IMHO.
The ridiculous rate of posting today, after dwindling attendance prior, is evidence of that, I think.
In the end, however, it’s still FUD and he’s still a hack. I remain suspicious that he’s some Republican functionary’s idiot nephew given a computer and a list of rightwing websites to peruse and repost from at the wingnut mothership – a job that they think/hope he can’t fuck up.
Anyone noticing Willard being taken down by the fact checkers?
Could this have been an Obama Rope-A-Dope? Give Willard enough rope to hang himself with? His him relentlessly on all the lies he obviously told last night?
I love this one…
Hmmmm….Ezra helps us out here:
Can Willard NOT lie?
Here’s another…
That’s not what the Tax Policy Center says…
I think there is ample fodder from last night to make MANY commercials over the coming days to hammer Willard.
You you gonna believe? Willard?
Can Romney NOT lie?
Elizabeth Warren’s white great grandfather shot an Indian
And how does this relate to the economy?
@ 135
What else does the Tax Policy Center say, when it looks at what it thinks is Romney’s plan?
We ignore the effect of the proposal to
reduce the corporate rate to 25 percent.
So Romney makes a major change, the benefit of which the Tax Policy Center chooses to ignore, although the Tax Policy Center certainly includes the reduction in the tax rate.
Increased business expansion and capital investment, hires of more employees who then will drain less from the safety nets and instead contribute by paying taxes…….ignored by the Tax Policy Center.
Nice try, Lib Despair. Did you even read the link before posting it?
Lib Despair, in consecutive posts above you suggest that I’m some sort of Rovian plant, and that Obama intentionally made a fool of himself in front of millions of Americans to lull an exceptionally well prepared Romney into a false sense of security, the purpose of which, apparently, would be to………..
What, exactly?
Do you really think that after last night’s triumph, Romney plans to coast into debates 2 and 3, and Obama will pounce, slay the infidel Mormon, and reclaim his right to the presidential throne?
Jesus, dude. I’m no one’s plant. I’m enjoying your black helicopter conspiracy theories and reveling in your neurosis.
I’m fucking with your mind and you’re giving me every reason in the world to keep doing it.
What will you do next? Run computerized word similarity checks between my spews and Karl Rove’s written word and spoken word history? That’s how people figured out Gleick falsified the documents that were ‘leaked’ from Heartland Institute. Maybe it will work for you against me.
Better get started. Not much time before the election.
Great Debate last night. Liar comes out on top. And no “God Bless Amreicas” last night.
@137
Here’s the whole paragraph you cribbed that single line from:
Your raving:
all brought to you by…lower taxes on rich people!! *POOF* More pixie dust!!
I can see why one of Willard’s zingers included the phrase ‘trickle down’ – because whatever you call it – supply-side, trickle down, Laffer curve – it’s all bullshit, and everyone knows it.
@118 – The same medicare cut that Paul Ryan proposes? So you agree, Pual Ryan’s plan is bad.
More Willard lies…(H/T Meteor Blades)
Truth:
Hung by his own words…Americans don’t like a liar.
It’s going to be drip-drip-drip lies-lies-lies in Willard’s own words until the election.
Whoa!! You have a very inflated view of yourself. I’ve only accused you of spewing right wing talking points, and half-humorously speculated that you’re someone’s idiot nephew.
The shrill and defensive response from you leads me to conclude that you’re an insecure and self-flattering little fool.
…and so it begins…
Drip, drip, drip….
Can Willard NOT lie?
@ 138
Could this have been an Obama Rope-A-Dope? Give Willard enough rope to hang himself with?
I don’t think it was deliberate. I think it was a genuine surprise at the extent of Romney’s mendacity.
But, you’re right about the long-term effects of this debate. The What’s My Line? commercials practically write themselves. Will the real Mitt Romney, please stand up?
Leave it to Al Gore to come up with the most fucked in the head excuse for Obama.
Gore is blaming the altitude for Obama’s horrible performance!
Too Damn Funny!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....rformance/
And leave it to the HorsesAss lunatic left to believe Obama lost this debate on purpose.
Yeah right. Ballots are out in some key states, let’s lose the debate on purpose!
All things considered, Romney will get a smallbounce from this debate. Why? Because he played the “diminshed expectations” game for the past year or more, and as long as he didn’t totally screw up, he looks like a winner just for showing up and not falling down.
But in more detail, let’s look at other factors at play.
Picking up percentage points in the red states isn’t going to help him any in the electoral college math.
His debate performance isn’t going to effect Blue states, either, where the President has a commanding lead.
In the swing states, it gets more complicated (and there are fewer of those than before). You have to sort out the electorate within those states – traditional Democrats, minorities, women, Tea Party, traditional Republicans, etc. But most importantly, the “undecideds” make up a fairly small percentage of each swing state, and a majority have already moved toward the President. So in general, Romney has to capture ALL the remaining undecideds to have a chance.
So even if Romney get’s a 3% “bump” in the nationwide opinion polls as a result of the debate performance, it makes no difference unless we are looking at the undecideds in the swing states – and that wouldn’t be close to enough.
I’d love to see the breakdown on the polling which will be released soon, probably by tomorrow. I’ve heard some ancedotal evidence that despite Romney’s agressive performance, quite a few women were turned off by it. When the camera panned to a shot where you could see Romney, he “smirked”, and his ignoring the debate rules and treatment of Leaher reinforced opinions that he was “arrogant”, “condescending”, and a “bully”.
I’d like to see if any of this shows up in the cross-tabs on the polling.
@148
See here. Ipsos poll on favorablity, taken post-debate.
I know it’s on DailyKos, but they’re reporting on an independent poll.
Anyway, both Willard and Obama improved overall. Obama stayed steady with Dem and Rep groups and improved greatly with independents. Willard improved with Republicans only, making no headway with Democrats or independents.
Kinda interesting, and does not bode well for Willard. Neither does this.
Can Willard NOT lie?
I forgot to mention, I didn’t see the debate myself. As I mentioned before, I was attending a business dinner. The comments I heard were from women in my office and some other comments which made their way into this morning’s news summaries and what I’ve seen online elsewhere. (Facebook, etc.).
This is an interesting diary about the Gish Gallop, and Willard.
It includes this:
Via Digby:
Indeed, how many times are the American people going to be fooled by the hucksters promising them pretty ponies and free aircraft carriers and pixie dust tax cuts and monkeys flying out of Willard’s ass before they get wise to the scam?
I take it from Cap’n Crunch’s changing of the subject, and then silence, that he’s conceded that he was full of shit on Medicare.
Eh, ‘doc’?
LOVE this graphic.
Willard loves to fire Big Bird.
He’s toast.
Golly the NY Times has some interesting commentary on the upcoming ObummerCare rationing…
Politifact… heh heh heh, caught in a biased lie and they never went back to correct it after this NY Times op-ed
And
Politifact… biased almost all the time.
Or Rahmbo Deadfish Emanuel’s brother discussing the upcoming ObummerCare
@157
Politifact is an often useless and frequently wrong endeavor.
However, Sarah Palin’s squawking about “Death Panels” was in fact a horrific lie, a lie intended to distort and manipulate.
Steve Rattner is eminently more respectable, and his use of the term ironically is in stark contrast to that of the Wasilla hillbilly.
We do, as a nation, need to come to grips with the fact that we are all going to die. That may sound weird, but I see it every day, and in what I’d guess is a majority of my patients, a startled response to that very obviously true statement.
We spend twice as much, per person per year (and that’s with tens of millions uninsured), on health care as comparable rich industrialized nations, and our outcome are the same or often inferior.
That make no sense.
Moreover, much of what we spend is on invasive and dangerous and very very expensive interventions on elderly people in the last months before they die.
I have had the experience over and over watching frail elderly people opt either for invasive aggressive approaches, or for more watchful, supportive, low-intensity approaches, and frankly, I think the latter group does better, often outliving the former, and certainly spending less time in hospitals.
However, we have a culture where “do everything” is at once a sign of family members’ love and commitment, a statement of resolve and non-acceptance of inevitable death, and often a form of splurging that was never possible with other buying decisions in a patient’s or their family’s economic experience. At a certain level it is empowering to say that.
I think for most, what typically happens is that the patient or their family experiences has a sense that someone is in decline, but planning for the inevitable is not widespread (in part due to demagoguery over ‘death panels’) – and then something happens – the person gets sick at home, and ‘911’ is called – and that starts a train that is very, very hard to stop – it’s all very protocolized and before long the patient is in the ICU and ventilators are deployed and multiple subspecialists are called in and before long tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent on what is essentially holding off the inevitable dying process for hours or day or weeks, months if they’re an outlier.
What I think well-meaning, rational and honest people (that excludes Caribou Barbie) are trying to get at is a conversation aimed at solving this problem – and it’s a huge problem and a primary driver of exploding US health care costs.
Puddy @156
I like that you linked to a NYT article that contained the following:
Oh noes.. HA buttspigot just got kicked in the jowls!
Oh Puddy saw it. And Puddy let it ride because Romney explained it perfectly last night; while Obummer had no “answer”.
Really? Because you just wrote above
Because him being eminently more respectable just blew your first comment apart when Rattner wrote this…
Interesting and of course you missed it in your PDS hatred!
It’s amazing how Lib likes how Puddy links these articles yet, it seems he never reads these on his own. So what are you reading Lib? Seems to be left wrong sites all the time!
No, you’re wrong. Let me explain. Palin demagogued the issue and portrayed the end-of-life decision making support as ‘death panels’ out to decide who lives and who doesn’t. That was a lie. She is a liar.
Rattner, as I said, used the term ironically to introduce the broader idea that we need to decide wisely how and when to not deploy expensive medical care. He is doing his readers, and the community at large, a service by advancing the conversation and problem-solving around this issue.
Sarah Palin was using a catchy term in a dishonest fashion to attack a political opponent. Rattner was using the term to introduce his ideas about honestly solving a very important national problem.
Do you honestly not see the difference?
What makes you think that you are introducing these articles to me for the first time?
You have a great deal of self-estimation. Isn’t pride and gloating a sin in your Jesus’ eyes?
That’s not what Puddy is discussing and it seems you missed it again… You wrote…
That’s not what Puddy was discussing with your reference above. Is Rattner lying about this?
That’s what Rattner wrote above. Do you understand the question? Seems you are making this inference.
1) Because you never discuss them and
2) You recently thanked Puddy twice for two previous articles Puddy posted!
I want to focus for a moment on some of poolboy’s trademark grandiosity in the face of misapprehension.
Steve Rattner wrote this that puddl quotes:
He puts that forward as some sort of retort to my statement:
…asserting (foolishly) that the fact that Caribou Barbie successfully demagogued the issue to the point that the “Death Panel” hysteria led to the removal of something good and useful from the bill somehow…something.
Poolboy once again makes my point for me – her ‘rant’ as Rattner put it, ‘lie’ as I put it – was used as a political weapon. Rattner and I agree, puddl is left to wank over sticky pictures of the Queen of the Tundra.
So you won’t answer the question… standard dunceman demagoguery. Rattner wrote this
And dunceman can’t admit if Rattner was right! IF IT WAS A LIE, then why was the provision to offer end-of-life consultations removed? See how dunceman plays the “victim”?
Blackhawk helicopters circling right now!
Dance… Dance Dance Dance!
Poolboy, you seem to have a very Palin-esque grasp of health care economics, and health care decision making.
You seem to have a very Palin-esque tendency to see the world only in terms of what can be manipulated as a political weapon.
In posts 156, 157, 158, you seem all aflutter about using a grown-up discussion of health care rationing/delivery/economics/wise use as a political weapon solely for the purpose of attacking Obama.
I was, very briefly, hopeful that you might have something thoughtful to say on the topic. My hope was misplaced.
More standard dunceman demagoguery @170. ObummerCare is a disaster. Doctors and hospitals have said so. Then when asked about Steve Rattner’s discussion about Sarah Palin’s comment, dunceman won’t honestly answer, just standard dunceman demagoguery.
Plain and simple for all to see!
Puddy has other things to do. May be back later!
Ugh. You are a complete moran.
Rattner was correct…Palin’s rant, as he put it, ‘lie’ as I put it, was part of relentless demagoguery over the ACA and in fact led to the removal of the provision for end-of-life consultations.
I didn’t dispute that.
I characterize Palin’s use of the term “Death Panel” as a lie because it was/is a lie. It was meant to frighten and misinform and manipulate, and it accomplished its goal – it was a political cudgel that extracted concessions from her enemies.
That in no way negates my characterization of Rattner as honest and good-intentioned, and his use of the term “death panel’ as ironic in introducing a discussion of health care costs and the wise deployment of health care resources, including the decisions around when to not use them at/near the end of life.
Are you illiterate?
Yes, puddy, but not what you think.
I’d be curious as to how other readers of this thread see it, but you demonstrate either a willful avoidance of honesty and engagement, or real stupidity.
You’re sort of like a little child, very VERY proud of the great big poop he made in the toilet, and insistent that all conversation in the living room amongst the adults cease so as to allow proper adulation for your accomplishment.
Another ad hominem attack and silly analogy. dunceman can’t comprehend the question. IF IT WAS A LIE from Palin, then why remove the provision to offer end-of-life consultations? It’s a very plain and simple question. If Rattner was part of the ObummerCare team, then there was no need react to the LIE as dunceman claims!
Another swing and a miss for dunceman. And you love toilet references dunceman.
Are you really that dense? Do you really believe that there were ‘Death Panels’ in the ACA? Do you really believe that lying isn’t often successful, if wrong?
She lied through her teeth, demagogued the issue, got her (then) loyal idiot supporters up in arms, and the Democrats retreated.
It was a successful lie, not an infrequent event in politics (WMD, anyone?), but a lie nonetheless.
Rattner called what she did a ‘rant’, which doesn’t convey much respect for her position. I called what she did a lie, because that’s what it was.
Rattner’s used the same term was in the interests of irony as a literary device, by comparison, and was used to introduce a complex and serious topic. Two different planets.
So, poolboy, to you really think that there were going to be panels of people deciding who would live and who would die?
And to think that you make black helicopter jokes about others….
Are you still a big fan of Sarah Palin, puddl?
Why do you deflect from the topic dunceman.
One more try.. If what Palin was offering was a lie… why did they the provision to offer end-of-life consultations? Why didn’t they keep it in?
Just answer the questions ya moron!
LOL! Exactly!
Case in point..
Recently did something with the database that I’ve wanted to do forever..
What does it reveal about a troll to gather all the words he or she has posted here and tabulate them?
So I have all of Puddydope’s comments gathered under a single tag. I stripped out the html and the stop words like “a”, “the”, “an”, “but” and counted how often the remaining words are used, the first date/time they were used and the last date/time..
I found something that sticks out like a freaking sore thumb..
What’s the word Puddybud uses the most in his nearly 36,000 comment history here?
More than “like” (6885 uses), “said” (6499), “do” (6428), “did” (6312) or even “ha” (5599)???
Anyone care to guess?
Poolboy asks, AGAIN, @178:
This question comes after I wrote this @175:
You seem to premise your question on the notion that a lie cannot be politically useful or successful, which is one of the more ludicrous positions you’ve taken. Do you really believe that
I think what is going on is that you have an inkling of how stupid you sound WRT this whole Rattner/Palin thing you’ve sunk your teeth into, and you don’t know any way out but to bang the table about me not answering a question that I’ve addressed over and over.
Try this…
Let’s start there.
Here’s Puddydope’s favorite death panel:
http://www.star-telegram.com/2.....since.html
Strange I don’t recall him mentioning it. Ever..
Ruh-roh…..not good for Willard…relishing firing…BIG BIRD…not good at all…
That one played into every negative stereotype of the vulture capitalist, AND attacked one of America’s children’s favorite icons.
Not good at all.
Words from widdle Scotty Brown’s favorite Supreme Court Justice, Anonin Scalia:
Not just the supreme impropriety of dismissing arguments that haven’t been made yet, or ruling on whole topics from his perch at Wingnut Central (AEI), Scalia desperately wants us to be living in 1789…
Because only Antonin Scalia really knows what they were thinking….
Have you guys seen that Elizabeth Warren is HAMMERING widdle Scotty over the Scalia gaffe, er, truth-telling?
Hangin’ him with his own words…beautiful…just like Big Bird!
WOWZA…even FoxNoise can’t ignore Big Bird…
…Willard is toast.
Oh, and this too. Cap’n Crunch is gonna have a sad :(