As the Rev. Jerry Falwell lies in critical condition, hooked up to a ventilator in a Lynchburg, VA hospital, let me be the first to urge doctors to take all extraordinary measures to keep him alive, in accordance with the wishes of Falwell, his family, and his God.
Feeding tubes, IVs, ventilators, repeated and prolonged defibrillation… anything to keep Falwell from shuffling off this mortal coil. And if his body ultimately fails, I hope they keep his brain alive in a jar of nutrient-rich fluid. It is God’s will.
Posted by larry flynt?
Can’t say as I agree with you here Goldy – funny as it is. The hope the man has a peaceful death with loved ones. He may be a crazy fanatic who went around blaming ‘homos’ for the defeat of Bush I and even causing 9/11, but he deserves a humane end, god willing.
another classy post. congratulations.
I trust that upon meeting his Maker he will get his deserved reward, whatever that is.
You guys are complaining about class!??! Hmmm… smells just like a hypocrite around here all of a sudden.
Stable condition, no longer on a ventilator according to the news moments ago. So sorry deathies, put your hoods and sythes away.
As he says, Gods hand can heal…
If Falwell’s right about things, it would have been interesting to see the look on his face as he descended downward…and passed Johnnie Cochrane on his way up.
If only those infidel Republican appointed judges hadn’t stopped god from healing Schiavo we wouldn’t be in this mess!
Rush @3,
I’m only trying to promote the culture of life.
(And to be fair to me… I only posted this after it was reported that Falwell was off the ventilator, and upgraded to serious condition. I’m not quite as ghoulish as I might appear.)
Darn it, Goldy. The new month starts Friday, and I haven’t feasted on human flesh at all in March. You know how we “deathies” can get when we go a calendar month without promoting our death culture.
And Falwell would have been tasty too. Plump and tender. Not stringy or tough.
Oh, well, maybe Ahnold will meet with an “accident” and we can get some of that good genetically modified stuff ( http://www.thisislondon.com/sh.....ily%20Mail ).
I am sure your readership likes these morsels you post here, Goldie. you throw them out the red meat and they devour every word. most of the time you are ok given your handicap of lefthandedness. but this post seemed over the line to me.
Jerry Falwell simply has an acute illness that caused the need for a ventilator. Granted, his advanced age and declining health have made the viral pneumonia much more serious for him, than let’s say, someone in good health in their 30’s or 40’s.
So I don’t see the medical intervention for Jerry Falwell as being “extraordinary”. It would be much different, of course, if the ventilator was required on a permanent long-term basis in order for him to stay alive.
Geez! Lighten up people; so Goldy broils Falwell on his own grill, so what.
“Tragedy is when I cut myself shaving; comedy is when you fall in an open sewer and die” –Mel Brooks
As someone who misuses religion to promote hate, Falwell deserves broiling — both in this world and the next.
Well, all “hope” is not lost deathies.. perhaps you’d care to prepare the feast on the future carrion of Pope John Paul II.
Well before the Schiavo case ever became national news there was some speculation on what would happen if the Pope became incapacitated due to his advancing age and illnesses, but didn’t die for a long period of time. This wasn’t just in regards to the Pope ending up on a ventilator, but also becoming mentally incapacitated due to Alzheimers or unable to perform his duties (mass, blessings, etc.), but still physically able to survive.
Apparently, the Vatican has no procedure for appointing a new Pope unless the previous one dies or voluntarily steps down.
The worry at the time was that this could lead to an actual crisis in the Catholic Church leadership. This is especially worrisome to some cardinals because of the Pope’s verbal stance on of life-prolonging measures (i.e. keep ’em coming).
Note that overall the Catholic Church has long affirmed an individual’s right to refuse life-prolonging measures. The Pope happens to have chosen, in advance, not to refuse such measures.
Well, all “hope” is not lost deathies.. perhaps you’d care to prepare the feast on the future carrion of Pope John Paul II.
I’m not saying I’d turn down a sample if they had a nice lady passing them out in the frozen foods section at Costco, but I was raised on the body and blood of Christ, so I’d imagine just ordinary pontif would have a hard time measuring up.
And to be blunt, that body of Christ tasted was pretty bland. But the blood! Boy, howdy! That was damn good stuff.
Goldy, bye-bye. It was fun but you have gone too far over the line.
With exchanges like the one above, I wonder how long our Union will last.
It’s really sad, we all hate each other, we all think the other side is full of idiots and we have no respect for opposing opinions. How do we stop this before it is too late?
Swatter @19,
This was over the line? What… the brain in the jar was too much for you? Man… you keep your line way to close.
Real Ass @ 16
Pope John is one of history’s truly great men. I have tremendous respect for him.
swatter @ 19
Buh-bye! I will miss the Pope. Can’t say the same for you.
Isn’t the Pope now on a feeding tube as well. It seems his trachetomy tube is malfunctioning too. And in his case, there is a large group of various hierarchical entities involved in determining not only his wishes but also what is best for the church. For all we know, he may already be in a PVS. And the Prince of Monaco is hanging by a thread. But hey Shiavo, right? Isn’t that whom we are supposed to be focussing on?
Goldy, grow up.
Goldy,
I am no fan of the Reverend.
I am a little taken aback by the sardonic flavor here lately. Naturally, I should expect such, and humor is still found in abundance, so I am not leaving. There have been folks on the right over the past week or so who have chosen to leave, and for those of you who enjoy the antiseptic setting of an echo chamber, I am sure you will like it here much better without them.
marks @ 26
I’d rather have an echo chamber than one populated so heavily with posters who have no interest in legitimate exchange. You’re not one of those posters; I enjoy reading your stuff. But others–and they surely know who they are–who bring only their loud ignorance to the table…they won’t be missed.
Janet S @25,
If by “grow up” you mean become a selfish, humorless prick who can’t tell the difference between seriousness and solemnity — like so many so-called “grownups” — then I prefer to nurture the child in me.
The rapture-right has been preaching for weeks about the absolute sanctity of life, and all I did was suggest that their philosophy be applied to one of their own… and to its logical, if absurd, conclusion. If you find my irreverence so distasteful, you are welcome to join swatter in self-imposed exile. Of course, you are both very welcome to stay.
Marks @26,
As always, I appreciate your tolerance.
The Rapture! Hey I almost forgot the Rapture! Should be happening any day now! Won’t get rid of ’em all, but it’ll get rid of 144K of ’em. I can’t wait for the Rapture to get here! :D
Let’s recap, deathies and ghoul groupies:
You mock people of faith.
You mock an innocent woman being starved to death.
You mock the parents that love her.
You mock a man with whose political and morals you disagree.
You mock the aged and suffering leader of the largest religious organization of the world.
You mock the most holy Sacrament of that same organization.
How much farther into depravity can you possibly sink?
You have danced on Terri’s grave before she has even been forced into it; you have celebrated, applauded and cheered every defeat her heartbroken family has suffered; you have gloated over the illness of Mr Falwell. You have held up the gravely infirm Pope to ridicule and mocked his will to live.
You appear to hold nothing in esteem except your own depravity. You seem to gleefully sit trying to outdo each other in your insults and your nastiness.
Don’t bother with any feigned indignation. Considered in the shadows of the ugliness of your own words, it would ring as hollow as your collective hardened hearts.
Sadly, predictably, you won’t feel shame, but you will continue to mock what is good, tear down those that don’t agree with you, and celebrate the misfortune of others.
Nope, you’re wrong. We mock the hypocrites who have done the opposite when facing the same situation, the people spreading vicious lies against Michael Schiavo and those that issue death threats against those they disagree with. It is you, and your side, that is beyond shame in their attempt to push on America their narrow brand of Christian theocracy.
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03.....e_be.shtml
Those of us who are religious and law-abiding are simply disgusted by your actions, and we’re not interested in being lectured or called death lovers by the lying, hateful, vindictive weasels on your side.
Too damned bad, get over it.
Amazingly Goldy, you don’t appear to be concerned that you are the one that is the most vulnerable here: your name is on the site.
You appear to proudly revel in the fact that your little blog in your little corner of the world cna compete with trash such as Democratic Underground.
While you cheer your comrades and instigate them further, you have neglected to remember that every single one of them has the luxury of being anonymous.
Nothing is ever lost forever. There will always be something of HorsesAss in cyberspace, on an old computer, in the memory of someone in the very small community that is Seattle. And like those of OJ, Curt Cobain, Robert Blake, Michael Jackson, someday your precious, precocious daughter will grow up and want to know “how and why, Dad”.
theREALanonymous1,
For every twit like you, there are several folks like me who appreciate and enjoy Goldy’s humor and no bullshit approach to the issues. I hope Goldy does run for public office one day—I’ll make maximum use of my sphere of influence to gain votes for him.
You do, however, make an excellent observation about many posters being anonymous. I debated using a screen name that could easily be linked to my real identity. I decided not to do so and intentionally limit the amount of personal information I divulge in order to avoid deductive disclosure of my identity. I have only one reason for this: there are a number of angry, rabid, right-wingers posting here that seriously sound like they are mentally ill. I can take care of myself when confronted by a lunatic, and my livelihood is not put at risk by my views, but I don’t want to subject my family and their property to any retaliation. I enjoy reading and posting to this blog, and remaining anonymous keeps it that way.
Oh, and theREALanonymous1, you’re an asshole for trying to intimidate Goldy because of his lack of anonymity.
Here’s to more fruitful and enlightening debate bro! (Slurp)
jrcricket @ 31
You preempted me. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Real Ass @ various
Domination of the media and public debate by the Right Wing Noise Machine is coming to an end. The sleeping giant is wakening. Get used to it.
More blather and nonsense.
By the way, you all may need to tear up your Comrade Clinton Club Cards..
CBS is reporting the Slickster supports “rescuing” Terri.
Add him to uberlefties Harkin, Jackson and Sharpton et.al.
What’s a poor liberal to do when your heroes leave you on the wrong side of a debate and history?
Oh I know…they can mock the sacred.
Charming.
And just to reenforce my point @ 34, I just find this in today’s Seattle Times:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....rry30.html
Bush supporter pleads guilty in attack on Kerry-backing girlfriend By Missy Stoddard
WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. — Steven Soper had his life all mapped out.
The 18-year-old Florida man had been accepted into the Army and planned to enlist after graduating this spring from high school.
But the plan came apart in late October when he attacked his girlfriend after learning she planned to vote for Sen. John Kerry in the presidential election.
Soper pleaded guilty today to false imprisonment, aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, battery and resisting arrest without violence.
….
Another proud member of the right-wing army. . . . who ain’t gonna be voting no mo.
theRealAnonymous @33,
Yeah, but at least I sleep peacefully at night, knowing I’m not a chicken-shit coward, hurling veiled threats from behind an anonymous pseudonym.
@30.You appear to hold nothing in esteem except your own depravity. Ditto.
@37.
Goldy doesn’t live in a glass house. Goldy is not the chicken-shit.
I agree @Chee … Goldy has allowed us all to post on ‘his’ blog. Much more tha I can say for the idiot Shark and his bow down to the leader brigade
Goldy – It’s no surprise that the wingers attempt to threaten you, it’s their SOP for people that disagree with them. Here’s just a smattering of the actions of the so-called “culture of life” in the past week or two:
1) Death threats against politicians: http://www.nydailynews.com/new.....1139c.html
2) Death threats and bounties on judges: http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/new.....0009990004
3) A hit taken out on Michael Schiavo: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/ne.....-headlines
4) Anti-semitic right-wing radio hosts suggesting people commit acts of violence (http://www.halturnershow.com)
5) Various other acts of violence: http://betacarbon.dailykos.com.....35919/6019
The so-called “culture of life” actually has no respect for life beyond their own, no respect for privacy, no respect for the rule of law, and does not, in any way, tolerate dissent from their narrow-minded non-reality based world-view.
PS. Let’s not even start with Randall Terry, who supports domestic terrorism (several of his Operation Rescue followers have been convicted on multiple murder counts)
Re topic, “praying for Falwell. Falwell needs your prayers. Over the years, I have watched Jerry spew and vent. His venomous anger bleeds through. Instead of going to anger management classes, Jerry has cover; all in the name of God. Jerry, you can run but you can’t hide.
RA @ 30:
You mock people of faith.
You mock an innocent woman being starved to death.
You mock the parents that love her.
You mock a man with whose political and morals you disagree.
You mock the aged and suffering leader of the largest religious organization of the world.
You mock the most holy Sacrament of that same organization.
I think it’s safe to say much of this was directed at me, so I’ll respond too.
I won’t take each in turn because they all stem from the same misunderstanding. RA, I was not mocking any of these people or groups. I was mocking you and your ilk.
And @ 32:
Too damned bad, get over it.
At least we have found some common ground.
Marks…Illinois has the best team, but in a one loss and you’re out tournament, who knows? My track record on these things is lousy, but NC vs. Illinois in the final, with Illinois winning.
I won’t disagree with your Final Four picks. The Illini built an impressive record, unmarred save Ohio State’s close victory, proving once again that playing the game is more important than looking at stats. I will be watching, or at least keeping one eye on the games. Beyond that, I look forward to baseball season…
”Reagan and Clinton were two major disappointments, but I can forgive Clinton’s sins much more easily than Reagans.”
I still look back on Reagan in terms of how successul I was during his terms. Call me a “Me” person, but my family had a good 8 years. Naturally, that was after the abysmal Carter administration, so I had something to rate it against. Clinton did well, unfortunately I think history will regard him as the second President to be impeached, and like Andrew Johnson, it will be so regardless of the seriousness of the offense.
Re: Catholic Church, there is no more dramatic theatre than the real-life kind going on right now…the ultimate question will be “What direction? More progressive; more traditional; or steady as she goes?” ”Of course, it is not only the Christian Church that fears science and rationality.” The anti-liberal energy comes from many religions. Go search for tolerance in the Middle East, for example.
Speaking of which, I benefit very little from having been there. The closet I came to Lebanon was Aqaba or Petra, Jordan (don’t have a map handy, so whichever is geographically closer). You are correct that the news from the region is reported through an “Americanized” filter. I do not know if this is simply due to our (we US citizens) lower desire for in depth news coverage from around the world, or perhaps the media is trying to avoid hurting our sensibilities. Close call in my book, as I remember from Test-taking 101 the longer answer is usually correct. It may be a mix of the two…
As to racial views, my parents raised me to see the person. I can’t explain it any better without going into serious detail, and this missive will be long enough without it. Suffice it to say, from my perspective, the playing field in these United States is much more level than where my wife comes from, and it is my opinion that any more “leveling” of the playing field here beyond perhaps some minor “tweaks” would negatively affect those of us who are guilty of not being the proper race.
Why do some people of color succeed, while others either fail or do not achieve their full potential? I would have to take a look at not race but culture for one answer. Taking what I know (my own scope) is usually best. My wife comes from a culture that values learning. One must take into account that her upbringing was quite a bit different than what we are used to here in the “on demand” nation that we are. Her country is quite poor. School is for everyone up to a 6th grade learning level. College (our high school learning) is for those who obtain the necessary grades (usually a “cut-off” is established, based on funding) or have the money. Professional training (real college-level) is almost exclusively for those who have the money. Sure, there are some exceptions, but this is the reality of her birth-nation.
With that basis established, you can understand the instinctive desire for success that she has for our children. That she maintains a core of friends from the same culture here in the States indicates she is not turning her back on her heritage but reinforcing it. So, education in this country is something her children may take for granted, were she not proactive in their development.
Couple that with the idea of public funding for schools. A person who barely makes a living wage can still send their children to school for next to nothing. The learning is picked up by the society at-large. There is no greater testimonial for a society one is part of than the value placed on their children.
My wife therefore must be an opportunist. She has instilled the value of learning into our children. She is taking advantage of societal benefits for the cost of our property taxes and those who buy lotto tickets. Our children learn at school and at home (homework sure has changed since my own time).
So what does that have to do with those who are not achieving success? I’m not sure, but I think that the author of The Bell Curve is likely wrong to base this on genetic similarities, but would be right to center on cultural disparities. I do not know how one affects cultural change, other than change one’s surroundings, but based on my wife’s example, that is not a sure thing…
While on the subject, Nicholas Kristof in the NYT has an interesting article, and I largely agree with him (this must be my own “Krauthammer moment”)…
Another Kind of Racism
I read the Kristoff column this morning. No Krauthammer moment, though. How soon you forget–Kristoff is middle-of-the -road. Once the slave trade ended, Americans lost interest in sub-suharan Africa except for the Tarzan movies. NOt even the oil from the continent’s west coast has generated much attention. I don’t know why…perhaps it is because, by and large, they are not like us. Except for nearly always supporting the bad people in South America, we also seem to forget that there is an entire continent south of us, and many of them are like us (undermines my theory about Africa, I suppose…or does it? Most Americans probably think of South Americans as very much like the Mexicans who slip across the border). We have had much to do with East Asia though. Maybe we are only really interested in areas of the world we’ve been at war in. War focuses the attention. I need to give this more thought.
I liked David Brooks’ column also. If only Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara had read a couple of good books about Indochina before they committed the country to that woebegone and tragic war.
Getting back to my badly articulated thesis on reason and religion, of course the same conflict exists around the world. Perhaps religion should be narrowed to religions that rely on revealed knowledge. To be redundant (a pretty good way to make a point) the two ways to truth are through the exercise of reason and by way of revelation. Reason has been eroding the ground held by revelation for about the past two millennia, perhaps longer, with ebbs and flows. There has seemed to be a rise in oracalism lately in America, but I think (hope?) it’s superficial. We can’t do a poll now of what the general populace believed in 1900, but I’d wager if we could we’d find the folks to be much less questioning about the “truths” of revealed religion, Christianity in our case. But again I’m beginning to ramble….
My wife and I were commenting this morning about a Vatican spokesmen asking that the faithful pray on behalf of the Pope. The obvious questions are, pray for what? and why would the Pope need help in getting through to god? We, this essential atheist and this doubtful Catholic, believe that this Pope was backward looking and has done much to make the Church irrelevant. Maybe when the smoke clears the Vatican chimney a better vision will be seen. The Pope, I’m sure, will rest in peace, as will we all eventually. As an aside, I have a good friend who is very much a believing and practicing Christian, but thank goodness a non-proselytizer. She tells me that even though I’m not a believer, I will still go to heaven because I’m a good person. She obviously can’t see into my heart, but she is also quilty of overlooking the overriding price of admission to those elysian fields. I wonder if this peculiar belief of hers will cause her any trouble in getting in herself.
I have some, more than some really, experience in an interracial relationship, many years ago. Like you, we didn’t experience overt racism, but I could sense its existence, often close to the surface. Perhaps our society has advanced since that time.
I agree almost entirely with your views on race and culture. We often say that people are the same all over the world; their hopes, fears, needs…we call it human nature. This may be so, but it is most of the time irrelevant. People may be the same, but culture determines how people react to any given stimulus, and cultures differ greatly. In this country we have an overarching culture, but we also have many very distinct sub-cultures. Cultures as small as a particular family can dramatically influence behavior, which is why two individuals, seemingly similarly situated, may fare so diffently in the larger world. There are many reasons why race is such an important issue everywhere, but reason would tell us that while the skin of a black man by itself makes him no different from me, it is likely the clearest of signals that his culture may be very different from mine (language would be another very strong signal, but one that requires some interaction to detect). His culture may make him either superior or inferior to me as measured by one or more developed abilities. If this sounds racist, so be it, but I don’t think that I’ve ever, since adolescence, disliked a black person because of his skin color, but I have disliked a number because their cultural values clashed with mine. I could give an example, and will if you ask, but you probalby get the point. Another point to get is that if some groups do better in our world than others, by whatever measure, it likely has nothing to do with race per se. By nature, I believe we are all essentially the same. It’s the cultures we belong to that elevate or bedevil us. So, affirmative action a good thing? Yes, it has been a very good thing. Is it time to end it? No, but it is time to tweak it away from race/ethnic origin to origins of social class/wealth.
My one point of minor disagreement there is no greater testimonial for a society…than to the value placed on their children …I’d go with value placed on women rather than on children. Children are often highly valued in backward societies, male children especially. Nothing is this simple, of course. I remember reading Barbara Tuchmann’s book The Distant Mirror in which she discussed why so little love and attention (relative to our own time)was given to children in medieval Europe. They died in great numbers, and not just in infancy. Making it to adulthood was a major accomplishment. Why shower affection and care on a child not apt to be around long?
A few other notes: We will never agree on Reagan. Bad President, bad precedent, bad legacy….the starting point which led us to what we have now. BTW, the main editorial in today’s NYT touches on a beef that it close to the top of my concern’s about GWB.
Petra is closer to Lebanon than Aqaba. I know this only because I recently read the Memoirs of Queen Now I Can’t Remember Her Name of Jordan. I may sound like a bigot again, but an important reason why our news from Israel/Palestine is so one-sided is because the Israeli lobby is extraordinarily powerful in this country. Also, to their credit, Jews, both religious and cultural, are very active participants in Americas intellectual and political worlds, and understandably tend very much to favor the Israeli side.
Por fin, I liked Goldy’s April Fool’s post…though it may turn out to be prophecy.
…and the Israelis are more like us than are the Palestinians.
I was going to comment on David Brooks, mainly because of Thucydides, Tolstoy, and Churchill. Being an intel agent is knowing your enemy. An agent would get it right more often when they know human nature as well…
“No, but it is time to tweak it away from race/ethnic origin to origins of social class/wealth.”
I could not agree more.
I have a yard waiting for me, with brilliant springtime sunshine, so I will get back to you later.
It was a great day outside, and I am a bit tired from the work. Anyway, Kristoff is middle of the road for you, but not me. While you said before that the NYT is not liberal, I have to base it on the filters I have in place. Perhaps in another month or year of reading it, I will come to that conclusion. Not right now, though…
We have been to war sort of in Panama, and to some degree in Guatemala and Nicaragua. Britain had their Falkland Islands expedition, but I can’t think of any war besides Columbia’s drug war which we have been part of in South America. I wonder if Venezuela will be the first?
she is also quilty of overlooking the overriding price of admission to those elysian fields. I wonder if this peculiar belief of hers will cause her any trouble in getting in herself.
Standard disclaimer: I am not a theologian. Now, the price of admission is simple: “He who believes in Me will not die.” I never memorized biblical chapter and verse (I am reasonably sure you can find it somewhere between Matthew 1:1 and John 21:25), but this single point is the crux of Christianity. Naturally, for a non-believer it must sound a bit silly. If theology is correct, her having this belief that good people can make it in without such surrender could be damning, depending on how she means it. Theology is one area of study that can drive a person nutty; hence my own faith is a shambles. I recall from some study I did as a youngster there would be three stages of the second coming of Christ. The first is His return, and a uniting with the remnant of Christians. Second is the raising of the faithful. Third, the judgment of all. A compelling theory by some is that those who had no opportunity to know Christ in life would be judged in the third stage by their actions in life, and if in their life they had engaged in the betterment of society, dealt fairly with others and such, the scale would tilt in their favor. Okay, I’m rambling…
I’d go with value placed on women rather than on children.
Perhaps value placed on progeny would be a better phrase, meaning subsequent generations as opposed to children specifically. Hmm, not sure that fits in today’s world, either…
NYT editorial on the dollar decline? I have to agree. Our borrowing has sunk the dollar, upped the oil price, and soon enough will lead to an untenable situation. At what point will the leadership address it? Crunch time is not far off.
Btw – Queen Noor, perhaps?
Queen Noor she was, or she is rather. I didn’t watch it, but Illinois apparently had no trouble with Louisville, and MS is leading NC at the half. I’m off for the evening, but will throw out one last gambit(strike that) argument on religion tomorrow.
Another hint:
gambitargumentInterestingly, as I watched some of the coverage on the deceased Pope, he apparently said in some form or fashion that salvation can be obtained even without submission. I predict a rift develops. I wonder if we may see a Church merger by the more liberal denominations (Lutheran, Unitarian, etc.), followed by a merger in opposition by the traditionalists (Southern Baptist, Church of God, etc.)?
Dear Gold-man, you’re missing the point. There was disagreement about what Terri would’ve wanted (especially when Michael was heard many times saying he didn’t know what she wanted; and only ‘remembered’ that she ‘wanted to die’ 7 years after she fell;) and a very real conflict of interest on the part of her estranged husband. We’re not falling for the attempt to conflate these two situations. And really, you’re too smart to try.
Marks
I may switch over to your side on the religious issue…a miracle has occured. I changed the time on my digital watch on the first try!!
I loosely (and I do mean loosely) analogize my sentiments about those who believe revealed religion dogma with my sentiments about those who live a gay lifestyle; i.e., I’m sure that I don’t fully understand either, and neither is for me, but as long as neither get into my face (become militant) about their choice, my approach is live and let live. I have good friends in both of these camps. As long as discussions on the subjects stay mostly intellectual, they make a couple of interesting subject for conversation.
William James is must reading for those who want to understand the religious impulse. I haven’t read much James, which likely says a lot about how interested I really am in understanding. My wife, though, is something of a scholar on this, so I likely get James’ drift. I gravitate to texts which support my point of view, like The Age of Reason (Paine) and A Preface to Morals (Lipmann-sp?). For some reason, the point of view antedated the suporting research. Probably the same thing occurs with those who believe. This is such a strong inclination that serious researchers in the sciences go to great lengths to guard against it.
An observation: When younger, I often argued with those determined to convert me to their way of thinking. Their arguments were not all the same, but shared this characteristic. They were all reasoned and logical internally, but they succumbed to the slightest breeze when looked at externally. In philosophy, there is likely a name for this…logical, consistent, reasoned arguments to support a fallacious notion. I can think of two analogies, neither really satisfactory, but perhaps helpful. The first analogy is a house built like any other house, with bathrooms and sinks and some source of heat, etc., but built on bare ground with no foundation. Inside the house, everything seems to be in order; the stairway leads to where it logically should lead; when the heat is turned on warm air comes out the vents, etc. But step outside, and it is immediately evident that the house will quickly deteriorate (at least in wet Seattle) because it has no foundation to support it, to keep it from rotting or sinking into the ground. Perhaps a better analogy comes from a long ago time when I was trying to help a fairly large concern with some policy issues. They were trying to do the right thing in the way employees were selected for promotion…i.e., they were trying to get away from the old boy network. In doing so, they had put together an elaborate rating scheme and alloted a certain number of points to each competing candidate. I don’t remember them all; in fact, I don’t remember any of them specifically, but there were points given for length of service, educational credits, patents maybe, performance ratings…a whole raft of elements. There was enornous time and energy devoted to scholastic-like arguments over how many points should be given for this element or that. Inside of this small world…the rating plan…the arguments made sense, and were seriously debated. There existed an internal logic to the whole thing. The problem was, that the plan itself was almost completely irrelevant in the external world. If the person who received the most points also happened to be the best candidate for the job, it was purely coincidental. Often, the person at the top was by temperament the least likely to succeed, and the person thought by consensus outside the plan to be the best peron, was somewhere way down on the final list, if he/she showed up at all. I liken this to doctrinal arguments in religion. If you are inside the edifice, it makes some sense; but if you step outside and ask the obvious questions, it’s nearly all nonsense.
Your observation on denominations merging may come true because of declining attendence at mainline churches. They can’t seem to compete with the evangelicals.
One last question, a serious one, on matters theological. What effect would it have on Christian doctrine if we were to receive a message from a planet somewhere else in our galaxy?
Second miracle…I called the NC-Illinois match-up. If Illinois wins Monday night, I promise to thank Zeus.
Correction to my post @52: Honduras vice Guatemala.
Whew! I will need to write down an important note to myself: STFU!
Anyway, to answer the last question, I think it was in a Douglas Adams book (may have been “Restaurant at the End of the Universe”) in which God reasoned Himself out of existence. I don’t recall the actual argument, just the resultant “POOF” when He winked out…
For you, the matter is settled. For others, perhaps this applies:
The Priest was preparing a man for his long day’s journey into night.
Whispering firmly, the Priest said, “Denounce the devil! Let him know
how little you think of him!”
The dying man said nothing.
The priest repeated his order.
Still the man said nothing.
The priest asked, “Why do you refuse to denounce the devil and his
evil?”
The dying man said, “Until I know for sure where I’m heading, I don’t
think I ought to aggravate anybody.”
Well, I think that about covers this subject matter. Looking forward to the NCAA match up, and no, I did not place a wager on it earlier today. My wife lost my money, and I dragged her out of the gaming facility before she could get to the ATM.
We probably were in Guatemala, covertly helping who knows which side during their time of trouble. Very likely we were in Chile at the time of Pinochet, and are in Venezuela at present.
Yes, enough of religious doctrine, but it would be very hard to discuss politic affairs around the world today without bringing in the influence of religion.
If you would like to carry on on another topic, the April Fool’s Day post might be a good place (nothing personal intended). I’ll check there periodically.