I received several emails over the weekend, from both the left and the right, suggesting (or goading) that I write a Memorial Day tribute of my own. And I would have… that is, if I had anything particularly relevant to say on the subject.
I’ve never served in the military, nor have any of my closest friends, nor anybody in my immediate family. Not my siblings nor my parents nor my grandparents nor my first or second cousins. I had a great uncle who served as an MP during World War II, guarding German prisoners of war, I believe stateside, but to my knowledge that’s about as close to combat as anyone on either side of my family has ever come. In fact, it seems clear that some of my ancestors emigrated to the U.S. specifically to avoid service in the Czar’s army.
As a child of the sixties, growing up watching the Vietnam War on TV, I vowed never to enlist, even if drafted. I would not give my life to fight what I believed to be an immoral war… and besides, I always thought I’d make such a crappy soldier that my risk of court martial for insubordination would far outweigh any chance that I’d ever do time for draft evasion. I was never a pacifist per se, but I’ve never believed in such a thing as a “just” war. Necessary perhaps, but never just.
Over the course of my 45 years I have come to know people who have served, some who even served in combat, but I’ve never known anybody who has sacrificed his life in service to our nation, nor am I aware of any close friend or relative to have lost a close friend or relative as such. The tragedy of war — Iraq, Vietnam or any other — has never directly touched my life.
I have both empathy and sympathy for those who have not been so fortunate, but my personal experience of Iraq is little different than that of Vietnam: it is something I watch on TV.
So who am I to memorialize our war dead when I know nothing of what they or their families endured? How can I adequately memorialize something for which I have no personal memory?
I am not a soldier. I do not come from a military family, nor from a cultural milieu were military service is common or even encouraged. Like President Bush and Vice-President Cheney and so many of the other hawks who foolishly led us into Iraq, I would have done almost anything to avoid military service. (The difference is, I admit it.) In this context, what words of commemoration could I have given, however heartfelt, that wouldn’t have come off as hollow?
Some of the fallen we honor each Memorial Day gave their lives willingly, others not. Some died defending freedom, others fell defending the folly or pride of their leaders. Some causes are more noble, some deaths more honorable… that is the nature of war, a nature reflected in the historical roots of Memorial Day itself, which arose after the Civil War to honor the dead of both those who defended the Union, and those who fought to preserve a Southern economy based on slavery.
While I may not know war firsthand, I know my history. I know that for every Yorktown there is a Gallipoli… for every Afghanistan there is an Iraq. The same armies that risked their lives to liberate the Nazi death camps, incinerated the city of Dresden and tens of thousands of innocent civilians—women, children, babies—with it.
I’m not a politician, and so I do not have to pin a flag to my lapel, place my hand over my heart and pretend that patriotism always trumps history or common sense. And so on Memorial Day I honored our war dead in the best way that I knew how: by keeping silent. It is simply not in me to ignore my own internal dissonance, but it would have been disrespectful to voice it on a day that means so much to families who have sacrificed so much for our nation, whatever the cause… and so much more than I myself have ever been asked to give.
Goldy, I think I understand your viewpoint, now that you have explained it. But I come from a different background. Growing up in the South, military service was an honored tradition. My grandfather served in WWI, my uncle served in WWII, my own father served in the Army between WWII and Korea, and again during the Korean conflict. In my neighborhood, every “father” I knew (fathers of my friends) served in either WWII or Korea. I didn’t serve myself, only because I graduated the year Saigon fell to N. Vietnam, and the much smaller all-volunteer army at the time thought my eyesight was too bad (I attempted to join the reserves).
I think in the South, we have more of a tendency to honor the veterans for their service, apart from the political decision of whether the particular war was a good idea or not. Certainly the Southern experience in the “War Between the States” might have something to do with that, whereas lots of Scots-Irish descendents answered the call to defend their states from “Northern Agression”, as it was called then, even though few of them owned slaves or wanted to have anything to do with owning them.
So I flew my flag yesterday, not in celebration of any particular political viewpoint, but in the memory of all those who served.
Quite an essay.
I differ in one regard .. I honor those who have made the ultimate sacrifice and those who are willing to put their lives on the line for this country I love.
I do not see this as only honoring those who die in uniform. Goldy, we both know of the three jews who died in Missiissippi. These too were heros, people as willing to give their lives as any soldier. In that spirit too we should honor those who fought without uniforms but died in the struggles of slaves and American Indians for the freedom we all treasure.
There are others who have given their lives for America … astronauts, explorers, cops, social workers and even some scientists. That spi8rit of sacrifice is so special, I believe we should honor it.
And of course, there is Dr. King and Abe Lincoln.
ALL these folks, as well as the soldiers who landed on D-day and today’s victims in Iraq made the ultimate commitment.
In my own family and friends, severalo have served and a few have died.
All this, however, begs the question your essay asks, “Is memeorial Day to honor soldiers regardless of the cause they died for?”
Remember Reagan at Bittberg? Is it a good thing to honor those who died in the balck uniform of the SS or those whose brave service to Germany was in guarding Auschwitz?
While it is true that the US has never fallen to the depths of the Nazi Wehrmacht, certaintly we too have had our faults. Memorial Day itself is a good example. The orpignal ntent was to remember the Union dead. Later, in an act reminiscent of South Africa’s reconciliation commission, we decided to honor all the dead.
“All the dead?” Does that include Sherman’s monsters? Does it include the viscioous haters of blacks? Should we honor Custer? Of the pilots who fire bombed Tokyo in the Dolittle raid, many never made it to safety. Are these men to be honored?
I would like to offer a suggestion fromkj jewsish tradition. According to the tradition, when the Egyptians chasing Moses drowned in the closing sea, someone chaeered. The usual version is that it was the angels but I prefer to believe it was the voice of hebrews celebrating the punishment of their slave masters. Wouldn’t you cheer?
Anyhow, in the story, the Deity rebukes those who cheered. Thehim (nod to Lee) says that the Egyptian too were his people and the death of any man should be mourned.
In that spirit, I see Memorial Day as a chance to honor ALL those Americans who are willing to riok their lives for our freedom. Like the South Africans, I try to set aside why these men, and now women, fought and honor their devotion. I honhor Sitting Bull alongside Douglas Mc Carthur.
I have come to even honor the Nazis whod died believing they were serving Germany.
Some died believing that it was their duty to Germany to fight as ordered. These deserve my respect too.
Anyhow, thanks for the beautiful essay.
I always felt a bit odd when people praised those who serve in the military on memorial day. I didn’t join the military out of any strong patriotic conviction. I joined because it was 1982 in Seattle, and it was hard to find a job, and I wanted to experience something different while I decided what I wanted to do with my life. I wound up staying for 8 years. During that time I learned a great deal about myself, and about my country. And when we were doing something honorable such as picking up Vietnamese boat people, or patrolling the streets of war torn Beirut, I felt great pride in what I was doing, and felt very proud of my country.
So now I say thank you to the soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines I see at the airport or other places, and hope they can feel proud of what they’re doing, and feel pride for the country they serve. It’s our jobs as civilians to ensure that our government provide the support the service members deserve, and it’s our job to ensure that we have a government that doesn’t misuse our military forces.
Goldy…
Fair enough, and I have no issue accepting your comments as legitimate expresions of mind and heart.
My father served as both a Doughboy in WW I and a stateside chemical corps captain in WW II; only this past Saturday did I give his WW II duffle bag to my #2 son, a civilian, as part of my process of cleaning out stuff as I downsize. He asked for it, and I was happy to pass it down.
I take tremendous pride in the service of my sons even as I did not serve myself, which is one of the genuine regrets of my life.
Our rights and liberties are ours at a cost, and that cost is illustrated by the headstones at Mt. Tahoma National Cemetary and other similar places. My own father is buried in such a place in Oregon.
It is sad that you aren’t acquainted with anyone in the military – such a calling is honorable and should be respected. My boys choose it for a myriad of reasons, certainly not all jingoistic as some contend.
But each citizen does owe a debt to those who serve, and especially to those who died in service. You don’t have to memorialize what is beyond your relational ken – rather, you recognize the service and sacrifice, accord those who have fallen their due by honoring them, and do what you can to live up to the freedoms and liberties they secured for us.
Not all wars are necessary, not all wars are just, not all just wars are necessary, and not all necessary wars are just – as W.T. Sherman said, “War is Hell.” So be it.
On a day like Memorial Day, the politics of a war, be they good, bad, or indifferent, are so far secondary to the service of the men and women who go where they’re told to go and shoot at whom they’re told to shot at, sometimes dying in the process, is vastly more important.
After all, someday the war that is fought may be one fully supported by the HA Happy Hooligans – then what?
rhp6033, someone with whom I frequently disagree, said it well @1, and his response to the day sounds respectful and quite appropriate.
Benjamin Franklin, when asked what type of country ours was to be, responded saying, “A republic…if you can keep it.” Part of the keeping is defending it even when large parts of it are unpalatable to you. Ask most any immigrant at a citizenship swearing-in ceremony – they become Americans because this is, to them, truly the last best hope on earth.
Your ambivalent thoughts are OK and credited to you as honest expressions. I can and do respect that.
The Piper
One of my most powerful memories is that of a Vietnam vet with whom my then-wife and I were pretty good firends; we all worked in the same place and went out together regularly with a larger group. One night my wife an I were out with him at a bar, and we started asking hium about his time there. Before long we realized both that he didn’t really want to talk much about it and that it was a very emotional subject for him. But what he did tell us that night was (and I am paraphrasing only a little) “I went over there because I wanted to do my duty and to fight for freedom, but I didn’t understand for a while that this was all bullshit, and that over there the only duty I had and the only thing I was fighting for was to stay alive.”
Two more soldiers died over the weekend. Ah, it’s so great to be “winning” when it looks and feels the same as losing…
I don’t feel that one has to know anyone who died personally to be able to commemorate Memorial Day. Understanding the tremendous sacrifice that people have made to fight in war is weighty enough. And I also don’t make distinctions between the individuals who died in wars that I personally think were foolish and the wars that I thought were necessary. All of those deaths are mourned equally because the intent of the sacrifice is the same.
I’m actually the first male member of my immediate family not to serve in the military. Going to high school at the end of the cold war, I always expected to serve my country with my mind, by being an entrepreneur or a scientist or an engineer. While I still feel that America at the turn of the 21st century mistakenly fell back on beliefs that the problems we face are solved by using our military in ways they’re not meant to be used, I don’t begrudge those who feel compelled to serve this country on the front lines. What bothers me the most is that too many of the bravest and strongest from my generation are dying in a war that still holds no justification and continues towards no clear end.
Pooper comes again
*gag* *gag*
Apparently the only acceptable expressions of honor for those who made the ultimate sacrifice are those that support right wing frames and narratives.
Sorry if we don’t conform to your fantasies Pooper.
Let us remember those who selflessly gave their lives so that we may live in a nation where county executives can award taxi licenses to a company whose drivers contributed to his campaign, instead of putting it up for bid. God bless America!
Just thought I would mention a little conflict within the U.S. where WWII veterans fought for freedom at home.
Tennessee has a lot of small counties – 98 of them, I think, if I remember correctly. The larger cities – Memphis, Nashville, Knoxville, and Chattanooga, now encompass the entire county, and then some, so they have pretty much reverted to a “metro” government model.
But in other counties, the county sheriff is the undisputed top dog politically. He holds his office by election, and the less scrupilous ones can decide which businesses exist or fail, by selective enforcement of the laws or outright intimidation and harrassment. Think of the original “Walking Tall” story, and you get the idea.
Anyway, in a small county outside of Chattanooga, during WWII a sheriff took over and turned it into a mini-Nazi state, with all activity in the county being subject to the whims of himself and his deputies. Forgive me for not naming the county, as I can’t recall it right now, nor can I recall the names of the individuals involved – my books aren’t available at the moment.
Anyway, veterans returning from WWII were appalled, feeling that it represented everything they had been fighting against. They ran an opposition candidate in the next election, despite arrests and intimidation of campaigners, and Sheriff’s deputies who insisted on examining the ballots before they were put in the polling box, and beating those who didn’t vote for the incumbent sheriff.
Apparantly the Sheriff didn’t think that was enough to ensure he won the election, because once the polls closed the deputies seized the ballot boxes and took them to the jailhouse, where the Sheriff insisted that they would be counted in a “secure environment”, without observers.
The G.I.s responded quickly. They gathered, armed with hunting rifles and shotguns, and – dynamite. As the Sheriff and the deputies refused to come out, shouting insults at them, the experienced bunker-busters crawled toward the jail under covering fire, and started dropping dynamite through the windows – first one stick, then two, and then – the sheriff and his deputies surrendered. The negotiated terms were that the sheriff and his deputies would get safe conduct to Chattanooga, but the ballot boxes remained behind.
Despite attempts in Chattanooga for the incumbent Sheriff to get the governor to call out the National Guard to “restore order”, nobody was interested. The election resulted in a new sheriff.
Anyway, just a little tale about G.I.s.
Pooper you have a debt to America – you have a debt to stop supporting a rogue government. You have a debt to support people who actually want rule of law. You have a debt to those who are trying to save the Constitution from destruction by your neo-con brothers. You have a debt to stop selling the lies of the Bush regime and the GOP as truth. When you pay that debt and ONLY then will you have the right to call on anyone else to pay their own.
@5…DL…
If you ask most every front line soldier or Marine of any war what they were fighting for, the realists among them would point to the guy next to him in a foxhole and say, “Him.”
You can take that all the way back to Stephen Crane’s Red Badge of Courage.
It’s not glory or glamour; it’s rough, hard, dangerous, and too often tragic work.
Fervor may prompt enlistment, but the fever of the fight is something else again. A few years ago, I had a long conversation with my oldest while he was home from Iraq for his mid-tour R&R. He told me – again, from a soldier in country – that the danger of the then protests by Cindy Sheehan was that it made soldiers doubt their ability to get the job done, and that made them dangerous to fellow soldiers.
Before dismissing the point, consider the one he was trying to make…To contend that all is lost, that it’s hopeless, that nothing can be done to prevail is to signal the specialist or lance corporal out on a patrol somewhere that he isn’t up to the task – the folks back home don’t believe in him.
So they doubt…and when you doubt, you make mistakes…and, in a combat zone, when you make mistakes, bad things happen.
When I asked him what he would say to Cindy Sheehan if he had the chance, he told me it would be simple and straightforward: “Shut up!”
Like all things, dissent has consequences, many of them deeply unpleasent. I simply wish that so many who think that it’s God’s call upon their lives to spew it up so bitterly think on that.
In the meantime, as an American you are entitled to any POV you please, and it’s the job of our men and women in uniform to fight, even to the death, if necessary, to protect your right to have that POV.
Just as a soldier who likes his one way fights for his buddy who likes his another, so too our rights to hold beliefs and act upon them should be something we all respect and support for each other.
The Piper
The trick to insubordination is knowing how to get away with it.
Hey MR. CYNICAL — I sure hope for your sake that you bought Dynamic Materials at $37.50 on May 15! I spent about $11,000 on 300 shares and 13 days later I’ve made over $1,100 profit! That’s an annualized return of about 280%. Sure beats the 1.25% that banks pay on CDs … and beats working, too! But why a leech like me gets a 2/3rds discount on income taxes is a mystery. I didn’t work for that money. I didn’t take any risk; everyone knew it was undervalued. The market simply gave me money! Anyone who claims the stock market is “efficient” or “rational” doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Of course, the market’s mistakes can work in the other direction, too, so you have to watch out for that.
@11
Like all things, dissent has consequences, many of them deeply unpleasent. I simply wish that so many who think that it’s God’s call upon their lives to spew it up so bitterly think on that.
It’s not God who calls upon us to dissent, it’s the people who founded this country. Disparaging the value of dissent is the same thing as disparaging the foundational values of this country.
@13 (continued) Knowing how to read the tea leaves is the whole ballgame.
@14 “Like all things, dissent has consequences, many of them deeply unpleasent. I simply wish that so many who think that it’s God’s call upon their lives to spew it up so bitterly think on that.”
Most straightforward rationalization of dictatorship I’ve ever seen.
We can always count on people like Piper to make dictators possible by silently knuckling under to tyranny and demanding the rest of us do the same.
For example, Bush’s lawyers argued in court today — an American court, if you can imagine — that the president has authority to send the military to arrest American citizens on American soil and hold them indefinitely in military prisons without charges or trial. And our friend Piper, who graduated from an American law school and used to be licensed to practice law and represent clients in Washington State (although he isn’t anymore, thank God), hasn’t spoken a single fucking word against this … he appears to have no problem with it. God help us all when people who think this way become lawyers and, even worse, judges.
The appointment of federal judges is always the single most important issue in any presidential election, even though it’s not discussed very much. McSame has promised to keep appointing wingnut judges in the Bush mold. That’s why, even if there was nothing else wrong with him, he should never be president. That’s why voting for McCain makes you a traitor to the Constitution and the American values of freedom and rule of law.
@16
It’s breathtaking to see that. I’ve been reading several books on fascism recently and to see the underlying mindset that led to fascist regimes replacing democracies so proudly on display by someone who purports to be a patriotic American is nothing short of shocking.
Shoulda bought HAL.
Was about $10 in early ’03. (split-adjusted.)
Now it’s about $48.
“Some causes are more noble, some deaths more honorable… that is the nature of war, …”
Soldiers don’t get to pick and choose which wars they fight in. That’s why we honor them all. It’s the leaders we must hold accountable. And there is no Department of Hell hot enough for politicians who squander the lives of other people’s children on unjust or unnecessary wars.
Dissent during time of war is a brave act, especially given the potential of the current Administration to retaliate. Staying quiet while others die in a pointless, immoral war is simply wrong. Cheering on an Administration so as to not, supposedly, cause loss of morale among overseas troops, even as that Administration lies about the justification for and progress of a war, is idiocy. The moral imperative concerning the Iraq War is, it seeems to me, rather clear–the damned thing must end.
Why do some southerners call the Civil War: “The War of Northern Aggression”? If I’m not mistaken, the south fired upon Ft. Sumpter, thereby initiating the War of Northern Aggression.
Maybe that’s another ‘peculiar institution’ in the south. If you start a fight, it’s the other guy’s fault.
You can’t expect the ignorant rightwing trolls on this board to know what Gallipoli is. You can’t expect them to know the Gallipoli fiasco was the brainchild of one Winston Churchill. You can’t expect them to know that Anzac Day is to Aussies and New Zealanders what July 4 is to Americans. You can’t expect them to know where Anzac Cove is, what it looks like, or what the Aussies and Kiwis, led by British officers, went through on its stony slopes. You can’t expect them to know that the last Gallipoli veteran, Alec Campbell, died in 2002 and was given a state funeral with a 21-gun salute. And, above all, you can’t expect them to know a fucking thing about the human cost of stupid decisions by politicians and/or generals …
@21…EMM…
It’s either called the War of Northern Aggression or the War Between the States, but never the Civil War.
That Northern troops were stationed in Southern states post-secession was tantamount to Northern Aggression. The Southern theory was that membership in the Union was voluntarily entered into, so it could be voluntarily gotten out of, and once the cord was cut, the presence of the federal government in the form of troops was both de facto and de jure aggression.
The Piper
“pretend that patriotism always trumps history or common sense”
Aye, there’s the problem! … And, as Sanuel Johnson said, “Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels.”
re 11: “Before dismissing the point, consider the one he was trying to make…To contend that all is lost, that it’s hopeless, that nothing can be done to prevail is to signal the specialist or lance corporal out on a patrol somewhere that he isn’t up to the task – the folks back home don’t believe in him.”
Cindy Sheehan had but one question for George W. Bush: “For what noble cause did my son die?”
That doesn’t signal hopelessness. It just reveals the pointlessness of the Iraq War. If a soldier realizes his mission is absurd, makes no sense, and could get him/her killed, you blame the problem on the person who revealed the pointlessness, not the sociopath who started the war so he and his chickenhawk buddies could make billions.
re 23: I guess the southerners’ opinion about all that was tantamount to being wrong.
Oh, and Piper, you will find that many reputable colleges — including the Ivy League, teach courses on the ‘Civil War’.
Your caviling and pointless nit-picking has always been an aggravation.
@23 “Aggression” is kidnapping people from their homes, chaining them in the befouled holds of ships, selling them into forced labor, and whipping, beating, torturing, and lynching them into a permanent state of unpaid servility.
@20…PL…
There are times, wouldn’t you agree, when discretion is the better part of valor?
In a democracy, if the majority votes to go one way, then the whole country goes that way. Dissent if you pleae, but remember that it’s never without consequences – you don’t live or exist in a vacuum.
During the Clinton era, when people like me exercised their rights of dissent and free speech, we were roundly condemned by Democrats and liberals as being traitors.
I guess it depends upon whose ox is getting – no pun intended – gored.
During WW II, FDR, a liberal Democrat if ever there was one, had dissenters imprisoned – Lincoln had them tossed so far in jail without habeas corpus that they barely saw the light of day.
When the purpose of the dissent is a legitimate, conscience-driven point of honor, then that’s one thing. When it’s just a self-focused, self-serving temper tantrum grounded in a failure to get one’s way, then that’s another thing entirely. Not all dissent is appropriate or principled; much of it is simply petulent.
To contend, however, that dissent is the highest value in a democracy is to miss the point of democracy: the majority rules, and the minority some times has to learn to like it or lump it.
BTW…if dissent is the highest form of patriotism, then among the HA Happy Hooligans, I must be the most patriotic of them all. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander…
If all the dirtybadnasty accusations about stifling dissent were true, then those making them would have been gulaged long ago and there wouldn’t be any dissent. T’isn’t the case, is it?
The press, including Goldy, is still around, the courts are still open, and nobody has banned the sale of bullhorns or copy paper.
Something that is disturbing, though, is what Rabbit and Lee did: equate disagreement with their POV with fascism – demonize all who hold opinions contrary to their own – seek to criminalize policy difference such that any POV save their own is ipso facto illegitimate and unlawful.
Who’s your Goebbels now?
Typical tolerance types…
The Piper
@27 If something is odious, you can count on Crackpiper to defend it.
LOL Johnboy McCain had to change location of his fund raiser since not enough people bought tickets!
@29 “There are times, wouldn’t you agree, when discretion is the better part of valor?”
Tell that to those who silently stood by while the Nazis murdered millions. Tell that to all who have ever been enslaved by tyrants. Tell that to the dead.
@29 You misunderstand me, crackpiper. I don’t call people who disagree with me “fascists.” I call fascists “fascists.”
@27…EMM…
You asked about Southern practices, and I answered your question.
I’ve always called it the Civil War – my people were Northern, mostly from Maine and other New England states.
My great-grandfather, Pvt. Albert Roberts, was in the 20th Maine Volunteers under Col. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain at Little Round Top in the Battle of Gettysburg.
Historically, we are so Union that when I was a small boy living in Arizona and a fan of the TV show The Gray Ghost I wanted a Confederate cap so I could play like I was Col. Mosby. On a trip to Knott’s Berry Farm, my mother refused to let me have one – I could have a Union cap, but no rebel stuff. Turns out our Auntie Mae would have tossed us into the street for such disloyalty – she was my grandmother’s older sister and a daughter of Pvt. Roberts.
He, BTW, got his jaw shot up late in the war at the Battle of Cold Harbor. To cover the scar, he grew a Van Dyke beard. In his later years when he was a Major and Master of Horse in the North Dakota National Guard, he favored white suits such that he was the spitting image of Col. Sanders.
So, you see…I come from a long line of progressives of their day.
The Piper
Mahone;
If you want to start a rather heated argument about the causes of the American Civil War (my preferred terminology), take it to any one of several history discussion boards. I’ve gotten to the point where I avoid those topics, even on the history discussion boards, because they generate more heat than light. There’s plenty of good logic on both sides of that issue, if you care to examine it dispationately, but you have to do it with a historian’s eye.
@29 (continued) “Typical tolerance types…”
You’re damn fucking right I don’t tolerate people who think they have a right to send American troops to arrest American citizens on American soil and hold them indefinitely in military prisons without charges or trial.
Especially given the track record of the Current Tyrant, who, it turns out, has arrested innocents over 90% of the time. Can you think of any major terrorism convictions this administration has won? How about all the innocent people they’ve kidnapped, “rendered,” tortured, then dumped on the streets without apology or compensation when they realized they fucked up — you don’t seem to care about them.
You should. You might be next, you know.
You’re an apologist and a defender of these Stalinists in GOP clothing, piper. Shame on you. You may fancy yourself a patriot, but you’re nothing of the kind. You’re exactly the kind of kowtowing apparatchik that makes secret police and gulags possible.
@33…RR…
Problem is, Rabbit, that you, a legend in your own mind, equate disagreement with fascism.
You are a singularly intolerant individual, and that’s a fact!
The Piper
@34 “I come from a long line of progressives of their day.”
For whatever reason, it didn’t rub off on you. Count yourself lucky your Auntie Mae isn’t around to read the crap you post on this board.
Piper @ 27: Growing up in Tennessee, with both my father and mother growing up in Alabama, I presumed my ancestors fought for the Confederacy.
I did locate one relative who served in an Alabama infantry regiment.
But I was surprised to find that most of my father’s side of the family was from Ontario, Canada, during the Civil War. They didn’t immigrate to the U.S. until the 1870’s.
@35 The Civil War immediately resulted from an unabating buildup of tensions between the nascent nation’s two principal cultural regions. Its deep-seated underlying cause was the existence of two incompatible economic systems.
@35…rhp6033…
Amen to that!
What is sad, though, is how many school kids not only don’t know any of the causes of the Civil War, but don’t even know we had one!
BTW…for a great read on the modern consequences of it, try Tony Horwitz’s Confederates in the Attic, in which he alternates chapters with one being about his hanging about with Civil War re-enactor and the next with modern day after shocks of the late unpleasentness.
Fascinating to know that up until her death in 2004, Alabama was paying a Confederate widow’s pension to Alberta Martin who was 18 when she married a Confederate veteran in his 80’s.
We aren’t that far removed from our past.
The Piper
@29
During the Clinton era, when people like me exercised their rights of dissent and free speech, we were roundly condemned by Democrats and liberals as being traitors.
Really? Do you have any evidence at all that these things were done by present company? Do you have any evidence at all that any individual here ever once called someone a traitor during the Clinton Administration for dissenting with that administration’s policies?
@38…RR…
Ol’ Auntie Mae would have had you for breakfast, lunch and dinner. She and her sister, my grandmother, were Republican to the core – even Bob Taft was a bit too soft for their taste, and FDR was the Hyde Park Humbug.
These women lived through two World Wars and the depression – in the overall travails of life, you would have been a small bug on their figurative windshield.
The Piper
Piper @ 29
During the Clinton era, when people like me exercised their rights of dissent and free speech, we were roundly condemned by Democrats and liberals as being traitors.
Really? Can you cite any books written by prominent liberals of that era with titles like, say, “Treason: Conservative Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terror”?
Piper:
Regarding dissent during time of war: Your various posts seem to indicate that a loyal American should cease criticizing government policy during time of war, as that might provide aid and comfort to the enemy.
That’s a statement I heard frequently from Nixon supporters during the Vietnam War (during his phase of that conflict), and again during the current war.
But how do you feel about the position of the Whig party in the Britain, circa 1773 through 1785? Do you think that they should have remained quiet as the King and Prime Minister sought to compel the North American Colonists to submit to the King’s authority? From the outset they believed it to be a mistaken policy, but once the blood of British troops was shed at Lexington and Concord, shouldn’t they have been compelled to give their vocal support to the King’s cause?
@39…rhp6033…
My father died when I was young, so I didn’t know him well. Additionally, he was a black sheep within his own family such that his heritage has been mostly a blank page. A few years back, I wandered onto a geneology website and posted some inquiries. Come to find out, his people, while in Iowa and Indiana in later years, were from Virginia originally, and a great-somethingorother fought on the wrong side.
I was immediately drawn to the great line from the classic western, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, “When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.”
That my #2 son graduated from Juanita HS where the mascot is the Rebels is bad enough.
The Union forever…
The Piper
rhp6033 sez:
They came for the privatized healthcare system, I’m sure. :-)
And while I’m here, Lee beat me to it on calling Rowdy Roddy’s bluff. In the 1990s, nobody called anybody “traitor”. Unless it was a Democrat complaining about one of Bill’s Republican-lite policies.
Piper:
During the Reagan/Bush I era, I was routinely castigated by my Republican friends for not showing sufficient support for our President. “Once the ballots are counted, we owe all our prayers, loyalty, and support to the person in charge”, especially if American troops are in harm’s way. Of course, American troops are usually in harm’s way, somewhere in the world, so that seemed to pretty much become a universal condition.
But when Clinton was elected, you should have seen them whirl about, nearly creating a small vortex from their spinning so quickly. “A good Christian’s duty is to fight against a government which has immoral policies”, they argued.
And as for restriction of freedoms, I’m am VERY concerned about another Republican term in the White House. Sure, we are free to buy newsprint, but a combination of right-wing ownership of radio stations and some print media, along with attempted removal of media consolidation rules, might well mean that the media is ultimately controlled only by the Republican party and its’ supporters. Sure, a journalist can write about anything he wants, but it may never be published, and he/she might find getting a job is difficult.
Of course, the response to that is always that the internet has become the “great leveler”, making control of the traditional media a moot point. (If it’s such a moot point, then why is Murdock spending so much money buying more of it?) But now we are hearing reports that “the internet is broken”, and that the government needs to step in and establish standards for an “Internet V. 2.0”, which will be placed under control of companies which will compete for the contract, along with an abandonment of net neutrality. It’s not that hard to imagine an internet where one company supervises access to web sights, which will filter their content for or at least prioritize the sites based upon profitability (to the company in control) and for political correctness.
Piper @ 46: When I was young (and underage), I took a date to a club where they had a band, and several hundred people on a Saturday night. This was in Tennessee, and my date was a exchange student from Poland.
About halfway through the night, the band struck up a fast-paced, rollicking version of Dixie. “Get on your feet” I told my perplexed date. She didn’t understand, but complied. Everyone was on their feet (some puzzled tourists excepted), some on their chairs, and the entire crowd was singing Dixie at the top of their lungs, some three verses or so (instead of the normal first verse commonly heard). It sounded like the roof was going to come down, punctuated by rebel yells at every opportunity.
I’m all for dissent, but I know better than to stay seated when Dixie is being played in a Southern bar. Just a bit of advice, in case you find yourself in a similar situation. You can argue about it later….
@45…rhp60333…
Where those lines begin and end is almost impossible to discern.
Take Edmund Burke, one of the very Whigs to whom you draw reference. He was critical of the Crown and its First Minister throughout the American Revolution. But he never called for the overthrow of the King or the imprisonment of Lord North.
Instead, he debated the legitimacy of Colonial grievances and the responses to them by British authorities. And he did so without ever feeling compelled to drop the “F” bomb.
We’ve come a long way, baby…and the trip ain’t been all that good for us.
As I wrote in a previous post, there’s a difference between conscience-driven dissent and sore-loser dissent. The one is legit, the other mere sour grapes.
You oft times can tell the difference in the manor of expression of the “dissent.”
Still…even with well intended dissent there can be unintended and negative consequences from it, which leads me to again say that sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.
Simply because you can does not necessarily mean that you should.
The Piper
@49…rhp6033…
When in Rome, GA, do as the Romans…
The Piper
Piper @ 29
I said that dissent during time of war was an act of bravery. I did not say it is the “highest form of patriotism.” It might indeed be such, but I’m not willing to say that without giving it some thought. I would certainly agree with you that “majority rules” is a rather important democratic value. I would bet that you would agree that democracy ceases to flourish when dialogue, even heated dialogue, stops. A healthy democracy insists upon the interchange of ideas. Moreover, a healthy democracy requires an educated and involved citizenry–the Greeks posited that knowledge of pertinent issues should be a precondition to the right to vote. I wouldn’t go that far, but some days I do certainly wonder why people who spend 5 seconds per year thinking about politics think that they should get to vote. Suppression of dissent, from whichever side of the ideological divide it might come, is simply wrong.
@52…PL…
No argument from me!
The Piper
As a veteran, I just want to say thatthis is one of the better Memorial Day posts I’ve seen. The beauty of it’s shear honesty cannot be surpasses be nationalistic fervor, no matter how hard some might try.
@50
As I wrote in a previous post, there’s a difference between conscience-driven dissent and sore-loser dissent. The one is legit, the other mere sour grapes.
So is the dissent over Iraq expressed by the majority of commenters here conscience-driven or sore-loser?
@55…Lee…
Depends…
Some of the HA Happy Hooligans are perpetual and perennial sour-grapers, and others aren’t. Still others are sometimes and other times not.
I’ve had my share of the bitter dregs of sour-grape wine on occasion, so I don’t claim perfection.
The Piper
Lee wrote: All of those deaths are mourned equally because the intent of the sacrifice is the same.
That’s pretty much how I feel about it. Well said.
@33 I beg to differ, Roger. For as long as I’ve watched the ramblings on HA, your definition of “Fascism” is, and has been, anyone who doesn’t agree with your POV. Piper has you dead to rights on that one. You toss that particular appellation around without much regard for applicability or accuracy, like a Serbian bombthrower with an Austrian Arch-Duke in view…
Goldy,
As a veteran myself here is the best summation I’ve ever known about war and warriors.
“Hate war, but love the American Warrior.”
~Lt. Gen. Hal Moore.
I am hesitant about Goldy’s post, simply because I don’t know the man personally, and don’t know what is behind the, apparent, indifference.
Many, many, years ago when I got out of the Army, I decided that I needed to go back to school. For the most part, politics and my service, was not an issue. However, there was one particular Liberal, who for me came to epitomize what it is that I detest about Liberalism in this country – this particular “gentleman”, when he found out that I had been in the military, had the temerity to to assume that I, and anyone else who served, only did so because we were too incompetent to have found “real jobs” and therefore had nothing better to do. Needless to say, the discussion became rather heated…
I’ve seen that same attitude here on HA, and in the mainstream Dem party, even to this day. And that is why, though I’m not a Republican, I could never embrace the Democratic Party.
@59…GBS…
Hal Moore co-wrote We Were Soldiers Once…and Young with journalist Joe Galloway, who was with Gen. Moore in the Ia Drang Valley in the early days of Vietnam.
The book is better than the movie, and the movie is pretty good.
The Piper
@37 How about if we just call you a fascist and let it go at that? That’s close enough for government work.
@42 He’s merely playing the “b-b-b-ut Democrats are just like us” card. No, we’re not. They even lie about that.
@43 You think I don’t have relatives who lived through 2 world wars and the depression? Hell, I have relatives who fought them.
So what, exactly, would Aunti Mae and your grandma do upon meeting Roger Rabbit? Give me The Stare? Bring it on, baby! Give me a piece of their collective minds? They’d get it served right back to them on a teacup saucer (which is more than large enough to contain the entire contents of 2 Victorian-era Republican minds). Debate me? I sure hope so.
You seem to be under an illusion that a couple of old-biddy Taft-era Republicans would make short work of a postmodern liberal lagomorph. Well, you imagine a lot of things, piper! You imagine bagpipes make “music.” You imagine you’re right. You imagine your ancient relatives are some sort of formidable social force when in fact they were mere fossilized caricatures of the past. It would be fun to see your grandmother run into my grandmother in whatever next world exists … my grandmother was widowed early in life, and spent the rest of her life working in factories, and she was an FDR Democrat who didn’t take any shit off any Taft Republicans or any other kind of Republicans!! She would have turned your Auntie Mae and your grandmother into pie crust inside of 2 minutes.
@56 There’s no “depends” about it, piper. Bush lied to get us into a war that has cost more than 3,000 American lives and countless innocent Iraqi lives. On top of that, Bush lost his war through mismanagement and incompetence. What’s there to debate? You were wrong to support Bush, and you were wrong to support his war. Yet you’re still gonna defend the wingnut loudmouths who impugned our patriotism becayse we dissented from this disastrous policy? Fuck you and your ilk. Don’t imagine for an instant that this will be forgotten or that you will be forgiven. Ever.
re 29: Lincoln’s position was promptly reversed by the supreme court and FDR threw the Japanese citizens in prisons at the behest of prominent conservatives who promised to withdraw their support of the war unless he did.
In NEITHER case was torture an issue. Every time you are in a moral quandary for supporting the unsupportable, you point to something that the other side did that was questionable.
You seem not to understand that pointing out someone else’s bad behavior does not condone, excuse, or even explain your own. You are a son-of-a-bitch who condones illegal murder and torture. You even put your own flesh and blood in harms way on some fool’s errand for George W. Bush.