My daughter had soccer practice from 6:15 to 7:15, so I couldn’t watch most of tonight’s Veep debate, but I did manage to listen to most of it on the radio. I’m not sure how much the lack of visuals influenced my impressions, but I thought I’d offer a brief analysis nonetheless.
I’ll start with obvious: Sarah Palin didn’t fall flat on her face. She stayed composed, she sounded confident (even when her clear lack of knowledge on an issue suggested she shouldn’t be), and she kept her energy up throughout the evening.
That said, she wasn’t very good. If the kind of performance she gave at the convention was the kind of performance she gave tonight, McCain would have enjoyed zero bounce in the days that followed. Her answers were erratic, wandering, mostly content free, and often had nothing to do with the questions asked… and to my ear, her performance grew steadily weaker over time. (I don’t know if that’s because she actually got worse, or because she just plain wore on me.) I’m sure a lot of folks on my side are probably disappointed that Palin wasn’t as embarrassing as she was in the Katie Couric interviews, but towards the end of the debate, I’m not so sure she wasn’t. That sort of monumental ineptitude is hard to sustain over a full 90 minutes, but I bet you could find a handful of 30-second clips, particularly near the end, that could stand alone as the Palin we’ve all come to know and mock over the past couple weeks.
We all knew from her convention speech that Palin could act, but the big question tonight was whether she could do improv? Um… not really.
Biden on the other hand did just fine, and actually grew stronger as the evening wore on. I wish he hadn’t laughed out loud at her insults—that came off as a little creepy—but I noticed no major gaffes, and he certainly appeared in command of the issues. He also seemed to focus mostly on McCain, not Palin, which in the end is a winning strategy.
So who won? On points, clearly Biden, a take that appears to be supported by the instant polls. But in the end, I don’t think it matters anymore. The Palin surge has long since faded, and I’m not sure there was anything Palin could have done tonight to put the bloom back on the rose. McCain appears to be losing the battle for the swing voters, and while Palin may not have done him much harm tonight, I don’t think she did him much good either.
One final comment. There was much debate both within and without the netroots over the proper response to Palin’s nomination, and there were many who strongly warned against attacking her personally, for fear of creating a backlash. But for those of us who persisted in relentlessly savaging both her qualifications and her character, well, I think tonight we enjoyed the fruits of our labor. For Palin, tonight’s debate was all about personal redemption, an effort to reclaim some of those post-convention highs, and reassure voters that she is prepared to stand a 72-year-old heartbeat away from the Oval Office. She did okay in that regard, but I’m not sure she succeeded.
Meanwhile, while Palin was essentially defending herself, Biden was busy attacking McCain, which is, after all, the role of the Veep nominee in a presidential campaign. Perhaps Palin helped herself a little tonight, but she failed to take even a sliver out of Barack Obama’s hide, and in that sense failed utterly in her primary role.
At least, that was my take from listening to the debate on the radio. I suppose the tracking polls over the next few days will prove whether my impression was right or wrong.
I listened to first half on the radio, saw the second half on TV. On TV she came off better, looking directly at the camera in a way which reminded me of her beauty-pagent training. Her intensity comes across on TV, Biden seemed a bit more distant.
Tomorrow’s commentary will probably echo the commentary I heard on POTUS08 coverage on the radio after the debate: It’s a draw, with a draw being the same as a win for Palin.
The debate format worked for her, because she had clearly memorized and practiced canned speaches in response to the expected questions. If she didn’t like a question, she gave the canned answer anyway, even if it didn’t answer the question.
She was able to get away with some false statements (such as “John McCain suspended his campaing to exercise the leadership to bring the parties together…) because there wasn’t enough time to call her on all of them.
Biden laughing at Palin’s insults didn’t seem creepy when accompanied by the visual. Palin delivered every insult with a ridiculous grin plastered on her face (and the with the sarcastic tone, I’m sure you heard), so his laughing fit in with the tone of the whole thing. It was almost hard to tell if she was making a serious attack, or a sarcastic joke.
The odd thing is that she believes with adamant certainty that her view of the world is right, no matter how many times reality proves her wrong.
Don’t agree? Well…. I’ll get back to ya’ on that!
When, oh when, is Obama or Bidden going to give the best response when McCain claims to be a maverick and a reformer?
(1) “It’s nice to have some Mavericks out there, and President Obama’s looking forward to working with McCain in that role in the Senate.”
(2) “Being a maverick is nice, but you also have to be more than a maverick, you have to be able to get things done. McCain should first prove to us he can reform his own party before we let him experiment with the country.”
(3) “John McCain has been campaining this year as a maverick and a reformer. Somebody should tell him that he’s running against me for President, not against his own party.”
She totally dominated all night. Biden is really a nice guy, I was surprised, but she
kicked his ass and he knew it. God damn
America has a chance.
James Garner was brillaint in Maverick and in The Rockford Files.
RHP, it is hard to take you serious when your 6th grade education shines through. Learn how to spell some basic words and then you can lean back and admire your encyclopedia size posts.
POOR OLD JOE HE STILL CANT GET HIS SHIT TOGETHER HE WAS WAS WRONG ON AT LEAST 10 ISSUES THAT WERE FACTUALY JUST PLAIN WRONG.JUST REMEMBER
C=COME
H=HELP
A
N=NEGRO
G=GET
E=ELECTED
This is what I got out of the debate;
John McCain, greed,(wink) reform, maverick,(wink), Main Street, Wall Street (wink), surge, John McCain, suspend campaign, country first (wink), nukular, democracy (wink), Alaska, Todd, special needs kids, (wink, wink, wink).
How come no one is talking about how heartfelt Biden got talking about his kids, being a single parent, kids nearly dying….How come his very real emotion is being ignored. How come no one is mentioning that his home is his only investment? He is one of the least financially set members of the senate.
Palin was good with the talking points. I could have done the job she did.
Biden was specific, direct and at the end was kicking her ass. This was no draw.
8
Once again PU demonstrates his 4th grade intellect.
Thanks for playing!
By the way, name the 10 factual errors. In fact, name just one.
9 You crack me up when you say you could match
Palin. She is way over your league, spaz.
Better keep jerkin off to pictures of Obama.
Biden obviously won the debate. Obama will win the election. Game over, trolls.
Indeed, James Garner was absolutely brilliant in Maverick.
Obama/Biden is up by 11 points nationally.
McCain/Palin is toast.
Obama/Biden is up by 11 points nationally.
McCain/Palin is toast.
10/02/2008 at 10:42 pm
Better enjoy it while it lasts. It going to be cut in half by next week and gone by mid October. heeheheheh
Hey can you moonbats tell me how Palin enforced a winds fall profits tax on oil companies in Alaska???
Not only was James Garner the real Maverick, he’s also a solid blue Democrat.
FEC reports show contributions to (among others) Bernie Sanders and Paul Wellstone.
Two items I have not heard discussed.
One is that absolutely nothing Palin says adds up or means anything. The lack of followup in the format let her get away with this. She talks about cutting taxes for working families (umm, no they don’t, its only for the richest 5% and mostly top .1% but oh well) she mentions cutting regulations, she wants to get government out of the way, and quotes Ray-gun saying that Government is the problem. All nice ol’ line repub talking points, but the world changed the last two weeks.
Maybe I am a little dense, but how then do you clean up the greed and the mess on Wall street that she blathered about every time she needed a line? They sure won’t do it themselves. And hell, even lamest duck had to stand up and assure the world that the US Government stands behind our financial system, and the Gov is now bailing out the deregulators mess, and is apparently the hope for the western world. Tell me how all this fits together? It doesn’t and I don’t think she even gets it.
Also ironic to me that she spends most of her closing statement quoting a speech she memorized from Ray-gun. The irony to me is that Ray-gun put that speech on a record used by the AMA to play at tea parties with doctors wives in the early 1960’s to attack national health care and medicare. Thats where all that blather came from. So plagarizing a speech attacking the most successful health plan in our history is the basis of her closing argument.
The bottom line is that not falling over and finishing most of her sentences apparently constitutes a successful debate for her to our conservative friends. The problem for mcCain is she spent the entire evening trying to justify herself and never laid a glove on Obama, while Biden pummelled McCain.
Joe was all over it, all night. Watch the CNN tracking meters on the undecided voters as they watch. the debate, as I just did. Joe killed them, they loved him, especially the women who were at the top of the meter for almost all his closing comments on each topic.
The end is near for all our conservative diehards.
MLF @8 HOW ABOUT WHEN BIDEN SAID McCAIN VOTED AGAINST THE FUNDING BILL LIE LOOK IT UP ASSHOLE.LOOK WHAT BIDEN SAID ABOUT THE 1ST AMENDMENT AND WHAT PART OF THE GOV IT WAS FOR HE IS A LAWYER AND GOT THAT WRONG.SO EAT SHIT
Well, Goldy (if you read this far down in your comments), you were right, and I was wrong to dread Palin’s appeal 2-3 weeks ago, when it looked like she was simply going to drown out Obama, Biden, and McCain with her moose-gutting charisma and hockey myom anti-gravitas.
It’s interesting however that 46% of those polled by CNN could come away from the debate believing that Palin was qualified to be president, according to Rujax! @118 in the “Debate Open Thread” comments.
18…the stupidest fucking psycho jerk from hell is back…and stupider than ever.
oh fucking joy
This debate has put Biden and even Obama on the defensive because of all the lies Biden told. This is not where Obama/Biden want to be since they have no accomplishments to point to. It will be a fun month and hopefully a even better November. heheehhe
completely fucking incoherently insane as usual…but, I admire consistency.
Among Sarah Putin’s remarkable gaffes that she spewed tonight was her concept of a “team of mavericks.” Try to get your brain around that one. Definitionally, a “team” of “mavericks” is not possible. A maverick refers, of course, to a lone rider, someone off by himself, by herself. So, a “team of mavericks”? She is so stupid, damn, she is stupid.
I had to take an important phone call about 25 minutes in, so I missed about the middle third of the debate. My general impression was that Palin was organized, composed, articulate, quite charming–and utterly wrong.
I did catch a rehash of what happened to the “instant poll” graph when she started gasbagging in defense of the war. America’s getting really, really tired of the same old war, the same tired excuses, the increasing vagueness over just who or what we’re seeking “victory” over, and the continuing stream of dead and broken Americans being shipped back home.
To parrot the Reagan bullshit about how all we need to make everything better is to “get government off the backs of business” comes across as a sick joke after the revelations of the last two weeks. What’s really going to decide this election is whether $700 billion worth of spitting into a forest fire is going to stave off catastrophe until the election, and/or whether the Democrats are going to allow the Rovian ratfuckers to paint them with the blame.
@ 7
it is hard to take you serious when your 6th grade education shines through. Learn how to spell some basic words…
First, if you’re going to point out someone else’s spelling errors, you might want to avoid using an adjective where an adverb would be much more appropriate.
Second, RHP’s comments at least have ideas in them. Your comments are universally vacuous. You remind me of the character in Pearl Jam’s Even Flow:
“Even flow, thoughts arrive like butterflies
He don’t know, so he chases them away”
I’ll start with some compare and contrast with the Presidential debate last Friday.
I got a good feel for both candidates from the Presidential debate. McCain spoke with some depth and authority on central Asia, and sounded terribly half-baked on economic issues. Obama held up well through the debate, although he bloviated on Iraq (yes, it was a mistake. I think somewhere around 80% of the US population agrees with that assessment now. There’s a good chance you’re going to be president in 3 1/2 months, so you might want to start thinking about this topic with a bit more depth beyond “it was a mistake”).
I didn’t get that out of this debate. First, both candidates avoided answering the moderator’s questions, to the point where Gwen Ifil stepped in and asked for them to repeat. Palin got the worst of it though. On several occasions, she misspoke or flat-out lied, and Biden called her on it. I’m trying to recall when Palin got a point on Biden (“There you go agin’ Joe” does not count), and can’t remember any clear hits.
As several other people mentioned, Palin presented herself much better than we might have expected based on her interview performances. She spoke clearly, she made excellent eye contact with the cameras, and she projected well.
But a tie or a win for her? Hardly.
My take: for people who have not followed the issues, Palin held her own. For people who have followed the issues, Biden kicked her ass. Unfortunately for McCain/Palin, the people most likely to have watched this debate have been following the issues.
By the way, Tom Foss hits the nail on the head. The debate format didn’t allow for follow-up questions. Were it not for that one fact, Palin would have fallen flat in her face. Too many of her answers were simply regurgitated talking points. Kids in high-school debate clubs can regurgitate memorized talking points.
I cannot believe that the MSM concurs that Palin “held her own.” Does anyone want further proof of how rightwing the media is? Holy shit, she’s dumb as dirt, but somehow, looking down at her notes, she was capable of saying something. She did not fall off the stage. Biden, could talk about Hamas and Hezbollah. Sarah had not a clue what he was talking about. How far has this nation fallen if anyone who watched the debate tonight could think that Palin would be a better president than Biden?
Pudding brains, this is YOUR party speaking
Proud of your party?
Jane’s dog asked:
Hey can you moonbats tell me how Palin enforced a winds fall profits tax on oil companies in Alaska???
Well Jane, that’s one of the nice things about being an “Energy-producing state” as Sarah said many times. As the taxing authority in that state, you get to dictate with authority how the oil extracted from the ground in Alaska will be taxed. BP and Exxon/Mobil don’t get the choice of picking the oilfields up and moving them to someplace with a more business-friendly environment.
At some point, oil may drop in price again, and the windfall profits will quietly be taken away lest someone mention that taxation is making Alaska crude too expensive to sell, the state economy will sputter, and there’s nothing anyone can do about it.
Remember this when Sarah talks about “cutting taxes” in Alaska. With oil over $100/barrel, the state was rolling in so much money that taxes could be cut without any pain whatsover. Financially speaking, Alaska is like nowhere else in the USA.
I follow headlines off a RSS feed from the CBC from time to time, here is how our neighbors covered the debate, although I am sure it was not on their television, pressing engagement. Early last month, their PM called parliament a do-nothing parliament, because the three oposition parties were not getting along, and asked the Governor General to dissolve the house and call for a snap election, which is interesting. Harper ran on adopting our fixed-election dates, with the first one being mid-October 2009. Adopting our concept worked good in B.C. in 2001, 4 years later, on-time under the new law, the election was held. The difference, the BC Liberals, unlike the Federal Conservatives, had a majority. Turns out, younger people up there, are more interested in watching our campaign then their election. Something I admire about there election seasons, when they do have them, are mercifully short. The minimum, six weeks. The previous snap-election was a little longer because it was called late in the year, and the Christmas Holiday interfered.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/usvote.....ml?ref=rss
Would one call this a debate, looks like a couple men and 1 woman sitting around a table talking. The lady at the table is lucky to be there, Green Party of Canada leader Elizabeth May, several of the others tried to keep here out of the Leaders’ debate, again, by getting the media consortium that puts them on, to change the rules, again. The Greens poll between 5-10%, and usually all parties with seats at dissolution are included, the Greens have 1 MP from the Vancouver area(of dubious background, by the way). The excuse this time, until people rebelled calling in local radio and the 1 national call-in radio show, included that the 1 Green MP had been an independent that had once been booted from the Liberal Caucus for funding problems, although cleared by Elections Canada. That and the Green Leader has no Liberal Challenger in her district, Central Nova(Scotia). The past couple debates, the Bloc Quebecois was included, and they want to push for another succession referendum.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canadav.....ml?ref=rss
I enjoyed Biden bringing up Mike Mansfield, he was a good man as Senator. Although a few decades before the incident where Biden said Mansfield straightened him out happened, about never questioning motive, but question judgement, Mansfield challenged one of Montana’s sitting Congressmembers(they had two at the time), but whoever challenged Rep. Rankin in 1942 was going to win, regardless of it being in the Primary or General. She voted against U.S. entry into WWII(and WWI for that matter). Even though WWII was the wrong war to vote against, I will give her(Rep. Rankin) credit for being committed to her cause. She even did a rally in Washington D.C. protesting Vietnam.
Mansfield was a great man, and could work across party lines. When Reagan was elected, Mansfield naturally was ready to give up his post as Ambassador to Japan, but Reagan said stay.
http://bioguide.congress.gov/s.....ex=M000113
http://www.missoulian.com/spec.....ibute.html
Chatty Kathy kept pulling her own string and popping out talking points all night. It got pretty old after 45 minutes. She didn’t just look at the camera all the time-she stared a hole through it-I thought that was creepy.
Joe was all over McCain like white on rice-he did a spectacular takedown of the “maverick” BS.
Caribou Barbie still can’t pronounce “nuclear” and apparently doesn’t feel the need to answer the questions posed. Her foreign affairs understanding was rudimentary.
Joe did get stronger as time wore on-the last 10 minutes were superb. The comment about Cheney being the “most dangerous VP in US history” was fantastic.
All in all a good night for Obama/Biden. Caribou Barbie is still a lightweight. She’s actually a “turtle on a fencepost”: didn’t get there by herself; has no business being there; and some idiot put her up there.
Re Freudian slips McClellan was Northern General ( race code word)
Re: White flag of surrender (scare tatic code word)
Re: Obama dangerous (scare tatic code)
Re OBiden (code word Irish Catholic, Osama, Obama all non-wasp terms
Re: I am proud to be an American(code, Michele Obama is not)
Actually, she can imrov, she can’t debate. Delivery only 1/4 of judging score( from high school debate coach) Evidence goes to Biden. Refutation goes to Biden Summation goes to Biden. Sorry, Sarah. I didn’t give you the trophy. I’d like to see Sarah and Tina Fey debate.
In such perilous times, I’m kind of ashamed that we are in this barracuda feast on the personality of the candidates. Jeeze! Come on Guys! Give us some hope. Gotta go with Obama O’Biden at this time.
re 23: She learned to think that way in her youth as a member of the Gang of Loners.
Mark @ 7: Thanks for your concern.
But I don’t proofread for spelling errors on blogs because nobody really cares much here. If I took the time to do so, my response would be less relevent due to the subject shifting over time.
As for my “encyclopedia-size posts”, I’m surprised you find it taxes your reading skills. I’ll try to keep it shorter for you next time so it stays on your level.
“See McCain”.
“See McCain run”.
“See McCain pick Palin.”
“See Palin run.”
“See Palin stumble.”
“See McCain fall.”
“See Palin fall.”
“See President Obama”.
“I’m not sure how much the lack of visuals influenced my impressions”
You mean you missed her Barbie-doll grin? Well, at least you caught her Barbie-doll squeaky voice and contrived folksy “havtas” and “gottas.”
Executive Summary: This is someone who would announce she had launched ICBMs against Russia smirking like she was handing out oil royalty checks.
“10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 … these are the stakes!”
25:
Here are two words for you to dissect:
FUCK and YOU!!
@1 “Her intensity comes across on TV, Biden seemed a bit more distant.”
Biden came across as sincere, Palin came across as scripted. Yes, she’s good at the beauty contestant stuff, but that’s all fake and everyone knows it. Beauty queens are supposed to put on an act. She would be okay as a hostess at a diplomatic reception as long as she didn’t say anything to the guests beyond the standard pre-approved greetings.
36 and 25
My humblest apology. I had a brain fart. Spilled coffee on my keyboard and got two posts very confused.
I am very very sorry.
@1 (continued) A draw isn’t good enough for a team that’s behind in points with the clock ticking down. She had to make baskets. She didn’t. But I don’t, in any event, agree that it was a draw. Biden made mincemeat of her. You can’t pit a tyro against an experienced professional in any field of endeavor — it doesn’t work.
No one is mentioning the winking Sarah did. She winked at the camera in the same creepy manner a hooker winks at a prospective John on Hollywood Blvd or Aurora for you Seattle-ites.
I needed a shower afterward.
14 JBD
You know, “hee hee hee” is cute and all, but why don’t you tell us HOW and WHY McCain will make up the GROWING gap between himself and Obama? The only time he had a lead was coming out of the weeklong prime-time “celebration of McCain” that was the Republican convention. He’s not going to hold another convention, so do tell us: what will McCain DO to turn things around?
‘Cause I just don’t see it happening, pal. America has decided.
@32 It’s about competence, not personality, marjorie. They’re not the same thing. But I agree with your conclusion. In times like these — in any times, for that matter, but especially in a crisis like now — it’s dangerous to put an untested novice like Palin in charge. That’s like promoting the messenger boy to CEO without any intermediate experience.
Hey Jane Balough’s Dog,
Get in my belly! I want to eat you!
How to cook a dog
It’s too early for the polls to reflect the veep debate, but the situation is already awful for McSame/Nobody. If the election were held today, Obama and Biden would get twice as many electoral votes as the also-rans — including Ohio and Florida and Virginia and North Carolina and Pennsylvania and Michigan and Minnesota and Wisconsin and Colorado and Nevada.
But as the economic crisis deepens — and it will — I think more nominally “red” states will bleed away into the “blue” column and 2008 could end up looking like the 1980 electoral map — a near-total blowout for President-Elect Obama, with Team Same-Old carrying only Arizona and Alaska.
RR @ 44: “…as the economic crisis deepens – and it will…”
Today the Republican governor of California sent a letter to the Republican Secty of Treasury saying that California will need a 7 billion dollar loan bailout within weeks to avoid defaulting on it’s obligations.
The irony is just too much to handle…..
45:
On the bright side, that is only 1% of the bailout being considered by the congress today.
At last count Biden uttered (14) fourteen lies during the debate! AND…he knows shit about the Constitution.
45 Hmmm….wonder if that’s how Rossi really plans to “balance the budget” here in Washington.
@47
What were these 14 lies? Oh you mean the ones on McCain’s site… Yeah, lot of assertions, no proof. I’ll trust them on things like McCain’s record. Yeah, Biden blew it on a few of those. But when I see “Biden said people wouldn’t pay more taxes under Obama than they did under Regan. That’s a lie.” I wanna see the math. And I’ve heard the assertions about what Obama said, about pre-conditions, I’ve watched the video clips, I’ve heard the interviews. What McCain’s camp is saying is a distortion at best…
For a better look at the strays from accuracy on both sides see:
http://www.factcheck.org/elect.....ebate.html
To sum it up:
– Biden got it wrong on a few assertions he made about McCain’s record.
– Palin got it wrong about policies, details needed for decision making, and one on the record of Obama.
Not knowing the details of the other guy’s vote, and not knowing that your health care policy is far from tax neutral are two different kettles of fish.
I don’t think Palin lied. She has a set of talking points, she memorized them.. If they aren’t true I’m not blaming her. Joe’s assertions were incorrect and he got a few things wrong even if one of them was right with the particular nuance associated with multiple votes on amendments. I don’t think he lied either. Lying is willful.
Your POV was totally skewed because you didn’t have a view. If you’d actually seen the wink wink wink, you’d have come to the right conclusion.
(Wink wink, nudge nudge.)
Hey gang…here’s a new one “Bible Spice”!
(from pam spaulding @ pandagone.net)
york, york…