Former Governor Booth Gardner seeks “death with dignity.” You know, as opposed to this.
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Hell David,
Is either way more dignified than the other (referring to the stories linked in the post. If you haven’t read them then stop reading this. Go read them and then return). I still have a hard time believing that we as a country fight in circles over whether or not we should keep abortion legal or we should save the souls of the many sinners and make abortion illegal. How can a country answer this one about legalized suicide?
A recent study just came out that children today will most likely be taking care of their parents longer than the parents took care of the child. Having been personally up front with the death of a loved one I can tell you it should be a personal decision for the person in question.
Death really is not dignified in any sort of way. You don’t get up and take a bow and then all of a sudden fall dead. Even with a person taking their own life they still may release their bowels. I have never seen a single death that was dignified. “Like wow, that person really went out as a class act. Man and after they were done they were so kind as move themselves to the mortuary and then dig their own grave. That is class right there!”
No, this is a personal decision. Stop getting politics involved in a persons life. There has not been a mass bum rush on suicide drugs in Oregon and there won’t be one here. Deal with it!!!
My personal rantings!
Life and death decisions like these are best left to the great ethical and religious minds of our age. Titans like: Bill Frist; George W. Bush; the Rev. Jerry Falwell; Pat Robertson; and Puddybuddy.
Amen
I see nothing wrong with those in hopeless health situations taking proactive measures to insure they pass into the next world as they choose.
Rabid Christians and others need to get over this nutty idea that it is “noble” to suffer for decades. Let those who choose to end their misery do so in dignified manner.
You have to love the twisted thinking of the right on these matters.
1) Abortion should be illegal because that’s murder
1a) We don’t want taxpayer money to go toward health care for these babies that are born so fuck em, let em die cause they’re poor
2) We don’t want to allow people with terminal illness to take their own life because that might risk the so-called pro-life position
2) We’ll send troops to die in war in Iraq and we’ll put guys to death on the row no problem
3) We don’t want to allow people to pull the plug on the Terri Schaivo types
3a) We don’t want taxpayer money to go toward health care for the terminally ill so fuck em, let em die cause they’re poor
Something not often discussed in this debate is what’s typically done when someone dies of “natural causes” under medical care. Generally an effort is made to “make the patient comfortable” and minimize the “agony” part, often by administering increasing amounts of intravenous morphine. This certainly reduces discomfort, but it also slows the heart and suppresses the respiratory reflex, and probably shortens the death struggle.
It seems unreasonable to legally require that each death be as protracted and unpleasant as possible, but if one wanted to push a point, what’s the difference between giving someone a heavy dose of a barbiturate when the pain from a terminal cancer becomes unbearable, and turning up the MS drip on someone thrashing and gasping in the last hours or minutes of earthly life? I think intuitively most of us sense a logical answer to that. However, the Schiaevo fiasco seems to indicate there’s a cadre of self-righeous zealots, and another group of political opportunists, who think otherwise.
There’s a term for people who think they have a right to interfere with someone else’s decision to end their own suffering: Officious meddler.
For you wingnuts, that means “busybody.”
Roger @ 6:
That was very “Libertarian” of you, Roger. I’m impressed!
@2 To hell with those guys; let God handle it. She’s smarter than all of them put together.
Actually Libertarians are the true conservatives. You guys should sue the Publican party for stealing your platform.
If only more Republicans would recognize that suicide would put an end to their twisted delusions and the angst-ridden gender dysphoria that tortures so many of them . . .
Should We Care If Soldiers Choose to Die For Our Country?
I got to thinking about this in the context of a news story that says several states have passed laws (of questionable constitutionality) making it a crime to use the name of a dead soldier “for commercial purposes” without permission of the family. These laws are specifically aimed at one individual who has been selling t-shirts on the Internet that say, “Bush Lied, They Died” with the names of over 3,000 KIAs imprinted on the shirts.
Some of the soldiers’ families have objected. For example, one mother said her son “believed in the mission” and would not want his name used to help convey a political message he disagreed with.
What makes this war different from Vietnam is that it’s being fought with an all-volunteer military. While it’s clear that some of those volunteers got more than they bargained for when they enlisted, or couldn’t handle everything the government has asked of them — as shown by the thousands of desertions, not to mention the even larger numbers of troopers who don’t re-enlist — nevertheless, no one forced any of them to fight this war. And it’s equally clear that a good many of the soldiers doing the hard fighting on the ground in Iraq do believe in the mission and want to believe they’re putting themselves at risk for something worthwhile (even though the rest of us can’t figure out what it is, and even the commander-guy hasn’t been able to articulate what the mission is, or clarify whether there even is one).
So, what to do? Are soldiers’ deaths any of our business? Or should we turn a blind eye to their suffering and sacrifices because they volunteered for it, and believed in giving their bodies and lives to this cause (whatever the cuase is)?
It’s a slippery issue, and I had to struggle with it a bit. I think the right answer is this:
1. The laws in question should be struck down as an unconstitutional interference with free speech.
2. The t-shirts are in bad taste and hurtful to bereaved families, so the guy selling them should — notwithstanding constitutional rights — exercise restraint and find some other way to express the same message (e.g., using crosses instead of names). Note: He could get around the law by GIVING AWAY the t-shirts, as the laws only prohibiting “commercial” use of the soldiers’ names.
3. We must separate the service of our troops from the policies of our government; and we should honor their service and sacrifices, no matter what.
4. The rightwing claim that people who don’t support the war “don’t support the troops” isn’t valid. In fact, it’s a vicious lie. The fact a person chooses to serve in the military and in the course of his service is called upon to fight a war and perhaps even to lose his life in battle doesn’t confer on him a right to tell his fellow American citizens what to think, how to vote, or what policies he must support.
5. While the bereavement of soldiers’ families should be respected as a private matter, the question of whether the country should be involved in a war is a matter of public policy, and as such, is everyone’s business and is fair game for debate and disagreement.
6. We should evaluate every decision by our government to take military action on its merits. The fact our troops are willing to fight a war and risk dying in it is never a justification for a war policy that cannot otherwise stand on its own merits.
7. The fact soldiers are willing to fight a particular war does not excuse us as citizens from our responsibility to oppose unnecessary or unjust wars, nor does it excuse us from our responsibility to make our own independent evaluation of whether putting our soldiers’ lives at risk is justified in the circumstances. We have a responsibility to protect and conserve the precious lives of our soldiers even when they disagree with our conclusions.
@5 Actually, the Schiavo fiasco is a poor example because Schiavo was aware of nothing and felt nothing, and what was done in that case was to assuage the living, not the afflicted, because Schiavo didn’t need any assuaging. She had been dead for years, and the still-living portion of her body was merely an insensate organism like a tree or blade of grass. This became irrefutably clear when the autopsy revealed there was no brain left, only glop, in her skull so there couldn’t possibly have been any pain cognition, consciousness, or awareness of any kind because the brain cells necessary for such functions didn’t exist.
Pulling Schiavo’s feeding tube and terminating the remaining life functions of her body, like her memorial service, was for the benefit of the living. It did nothing for Schiavo.
And this is fundamentally what the rightwingers are saying to us: “It hurts me when you get an abortion or choose assisted suicide.” It’s all about the effect our actions have on their sensitivities.
I think I’ll go get a hammer and smash my toe right now!
On second thought, I think I’ll let them do it to their own toe, so I can enjoy vicariously enjoy THEIR suffering.
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
@7 Lib, I’ve never interfered with any Republican’s death wish. I haven’t prevented a single Republican from killing himself. I don’t say a word when they jaywalk across Aurora Avenue.
RightEqualsStupid says:
Actually Libertarians are the true conservatives. You guys should sue the Publican party for stealing your platform.
======
Libertarians are the true liberals, too.
As far as the Republicans and their platform are concerned, there’s nothing Libertarian there. Getting involved in crazy, centuries-old, religious wars and spending lots of other folks’ money doing that is not very Libertarian. Also, bloating the federal government even more with the “Department of Homeland Security” ain’t the way Libertarians want to see the country go.
GWB and the Republican elite walked into this current mess with their eyes-wide-shut! There’s nothing Libertarian about them.
so this is how it got onto the radar !
will it be ‘vote-able” issue in 2008 for Washington ???
#5
a morphine drip towards the end is the most humane way to die… it still takes a few days after the patient has decided not to continue with more treatment.(treatment as in a few more days/weeks with dialysis or “comfort radiation” or one more trial drug, etc.)
then palliative care can give you that luxury.
Now liver and kidney failure (as a consequence to chemo or as the main illness etc.) is one of most horrid deaths though,
you will be confused and on fluid restriction, receiving laxatives to keep the ammonia levels in your brain down but the skin of your bottom raw.
at this stage, pain killers of any kind and or a morphine drip are not really an option, only enough to NOT kill you OR ADD to your confusion.
chances are by then, you also are in four or five point restrains, with continuous dialysis or ‘treatment’ untill the last day.
Or somebody who really loves YOU more then what OTHERS COULD THINK has Power of Attorney for your Medical Decisions and decides for YOU, who can’t decide anymore once ‘confused’ to discontinue “treatment”… only then are classified as palliative care and comfort measures can be taken and a more peaceful death.
a very different scenario then abortion!
An interesting topic, with the added complexity that we really don’t have the details of the proposed law.
While I’m opposed to suicide, laws “preventing” suicide have always seemed odd to me.
In the cases we’re generally speaking of here, some of the laws against assisted suicide have an additional harmful effect. Some physicians are reluctant to prescribe enough medication to control pain in terminal illnesses because of fear that they will be accused of assisting a suicide.
In the end, this is one more decision that must be left up to the patient and doctor. Not, as Governor Gardner says “a pinhead politician who can’t pass ninth-grade biology“.
The state should make sure that the person realizes what they want, and that they are not suffering from some sort of temporary depression issue. Then trust the patient and doctor to make the call, even if we disagree.
Down deep in my soul, I really don’t like it, but it’s still the right answer.
As to the side issue of Ms. Schiavo, and situations like hers, hopefully, something good came of it. Lots of people had that uncomfortable discussion with their relatives, and had durable powers of attorney and health care directives drawn up. (My family checked ours and had an important, but uncomfortable conversation.)
And regardless of the outcome of Governor Gardner’s proposal, we can hope that a few more families have that conversation, and while they’re at it, they should be discussing organ donation as well.
Bet there’s no pansy ass fucking libruls in this place:
http://www.gunbarrelcity.org/default.asp?id=1
17
An interesting topic, with the added complexity that we really don’t have the details of the proposed law.
is there a new law being proposed? and if so by whom, when and where??
Lots of people had that uncomfortable discussion with their relatives, and had durable powers of attorney and health care directives drawn up. (My family checked ours and had an important, but uncomfortable conversation.)
And regardless of the outcome of Governor Gardner’s proposal, we can hope that a few more families have that conversation, and while they’re at it, they should be discussing organ donation as well.
Yes, spell it out in your Advance Directives make an airtight Living Will.
If this ___then this ,etc.
and make sure all possibilities, sudden traumatic brain injury the most important one, are included.
Organ donation is too, one of those topics people get so uncomfortable about!
Even if you are riddled with cancer, your corneas usually could be harvested.
A thought that horrifies your ‘loved ones’ when asked after you just died and a question that has to be asked every-time!! So yes, if you even think that you can give what you can’t use anymore then please, spell it out in your directives.
And last, why opposed to suicide?
Suicide just is!
A choice, right? A personal choice you can reject for yourself, but why be opposed to it?
We have laws governing all aspects of human behavior and religion got suicide into the mix.
MTR: GFY AND PAY YOUR FUCKING GAMBLING DEBT!
vegan:
“is there a new law being proposed? and if so by whom, when and where??”
Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part. Governor Gardner is advocating that a new law should be proposed. At this point, we don’t have the vaguest idea of what any new proposal might contain, so it’s difficult to discuss the issue in anything but generalities.
As to organ donation, my mother died of cancer, and was still able to donate her corneas. Fortunately, I’m the eldest child and was listed as next of kin, so I was able to make the decision before anyone else gave it much thought.
My youngest sister is still not speaking to me over that one, but considering the two people that can now see, I’ll manage to live with it.
“And last, why opposed to suicide?”
I’m opposed to suicide in the same manner that I’m opposed to abortion. I’m not ever going to do it, and feel that it is a tragedy.
I also feel that it is none of the government’s business.
In opposing abortion, I do not support nor propose that it be a matter of law. We should just do everything possible to make it unnecessary. It is possible to be both “pro-life” and “pro-choice”. “Safe, legal and rare” was the catch phrase of the pro-choice movement at one time, and (I believe) of most pro-choice people now, yours truly included.
In opposing suicide, I feel the same way. People should be given every possible support to allow them to die painlessly and naturally, surrounded by people that love and care for them, reassured that we consider every moment that they are with us to be a treasure, rather than a burden.
A lot of profound and articulate comments above that are hard to improve on. Thanks Folks for expressing my thoughts better than I ever could! I lost my Mom a year ago this last Christmas. We were over a barrel, even though Mom had already expressed her desire to get it over and done with. Was she to bleed to death from the breast cancer lesion that wouldn’t stop bleeding for nearly a month? Or end up as a vegetable from more strokes if the blood thinner, Cumadin, was withheld? In the end, blood clots traveling created such horrible pain. Thank God for the morphine!!!!
I think, to many of the Oregon people who have requested assistance but never implemented, it’s the lessening of fear and the knowledge that they have an “Exit Plan” that they THEMSELVES can activate, should circumstances/pain get out of control. They could tolerate more pain perhaps, as long as there was an “Insurance Policy” in place. Reality is that by the time one ends up in the Nursing Home, there’s not too much left that a person has the ability to control. Told when to eat, lights out when it’s time to sleep, pills doled out like when they were parents administering to their own children.
I think Shiavo gave another additional powerful incentive for people being able to comprehend the need for Booth’s Bill for Death with Dignity. Down in Florida, the sunbelt overrun with Senior Citizens and Retirees, there was a collective gasp at that time. Regular people saw firsthand the nitwit politicians running around making fools of themselves banging their tamborines for Jesus. Big Government intervention in a private family matter. Shrub Bush practically racing back to Washington D.C. in his pajamas to sign off on yet another intrusive, interfering bill. The timing may be MUCH better this time around in Washington State for a Death with Dignity bill. I certainly hope so and will be asking for petitions to collect signatures myself!
frick……”I think Shiavo gave another additional powerful incentive for people being able to comprehend the need for Booth’s Bill for Death with Dignity. Down in Florida, the sunbelt overrun with Senior Citizens and Retirees, there was a collective gasp at that time. Regular people saw firsthand the nitwit politicians running around making fools of themselves banging their tamborines for Jesus.”
good grief…another idiot gets on board!
that had nothing to do with “jesus” and EVERYTHING to do with not wanting to assist a murdering sack of sh*% husband get away with the crime he screwed up to begin with.let me guess…you march for WOMEN’S rights too don’t you? well, terri was a woman and where were all the “we are for women’s rights” people then,huh? they were helping a murderer get away with it…..because otherwise, geez ,it might affect the BIG CORPORATION [can you say planned parenthood…making a ton of dough but never solving any problems?] that makes oodles of money off abortion. yes…they drew that connection, as shoddy and sleazy as it was.
look, as a woman, i can tell you right now that the last thing the average woman needs is some pea brained “we-only-think-with-one-side-of-our-brain-at-once” man TALKING FOR THEM…….
WELCOME TO THE SHIP OF FOOLS……….
@23, christmasghost
Do you have mental problems? Perhaps going through menopause? Just wondering because your comments always seem so disjointed and angry.
HEY GHOST – WHY DON’T YOU SEND SOME BUCKS TO DARCY BURNER THEN?
REICHERT VOTED AGAINST THE REPUBLICANS ON THE SCHIAVO FLAP.
OR MAYBE THE DELAY CROWD HAD THE VOTES AND JUST LET THE “MODERATE” PLAY TO HIS DISTRICT.
IT’S FUNNY THAT THE EARLY FUNDERS OF THE POST-WWII CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT WERE PEOPLE RUNNING FAMILY-OWNED MANUFACTURING BUSINESSES LIKE THE KOHLERS AND THE MILIKENS.
GHOST SEEMS TO BE CUT FROM THAT CLOTH. IF IT WAS THE FIFTIES SHE’D BE AN UNHINGED BIRCHER.
23 I’m not sure what really constitutes a good definition of “death with dignity”. I sure as hell know it wasn’t the disgusting spectacle that happened over Terri Schaievo. Your rhetoric is a little over the top, so I’m not sure which point you’re most interested in trying to make. At one point you almost seem to be trying to portray your viewpoint as feminist, and I don’t think gender has much to do with it.
Let’s try on your claim that Schaievo’s condition was due to a botched murder attempt by her husband…which I don’t know has any credibility or not. Assuming it does, are you then claiming that it was justifiable to attempt to keep what was left of her body warm, moist and pink indefinitely…in case evidence materialized from somewhere to prove him guilty? Then what? So some arcane claim could be made that she “lived” to see justice done? As to your other claim, how exactly was Planned Parenthood supposed to profit from this? Seems to me the only money that was being made was by the nursing home, and that wasn’t much.
Oh, so it wasn’t about “saving” Terri Schiaevo at all, perhaps, but using her as a pawn the Great Abortion Debate? Did anyone ask her permission to use her as a poster child?
All that really was, was a big freak show, the centerpiece of which was a poor woman whose soul was long gone, and whose worn-out body was ready to rest in peace. All the demonstrators who exploited their own kids to “take Terri a glass of water”, the politicians (including Frist, who evidently has no shame whatsoever), the newshounds who played into their hands, and the rest of us who watched it all with the same morbid fascination as a crowd watching bodies being pulled from a car wreck, should be ashamed of ourselves.
27 In case you think I don’t know what I’m talking about…go ask Nancy Reagan, or anyone else who (like me) has watched a loved one die from Alzheimer’s. It happens to be EXACTLY THE SAME THING…the poor victim’s brain slowly rots away, and you get to see what made them them disappear a little at a time. Finally, to borrow a phrase from “The Matrix”…”without the mind to support it, the body dies”. There is absolutely no difference between this and the Schaievo case, except (usually, but not always) the age of the victim, and a little more acceptance of the certainty that there ain’t going to be any miraculous recovery.
@18 JARED*
* Just another real estate development
So what’s the fucking point? Are you selling lots in Texas desert land to raise money to pay your gambling debt?
@23 Good grief, are you still smoking that rightwing Terri-Was-Murdered dope?
Thank God that I’m not married to YOU, but if somehow I was (and the only way THAT would ever happen would be through an arranged child marriage), I would NOT pull the plug on you — I’d let you wallow in your wet diapers for as long as it took for God to take you when She’s good and ready!
So I won’t be accused of “murder.”
@24 Do you even need to ask?
GHOST IS SO STUPID ABOUT SCHIAVO.
IN HER HYSTERIA SHE RAISES CAINE ABOUT THE HUSBAND. OH HE’S SO EVIL, BLAH, BLAH – TOTALLY SWALLOWING THE RIGHT-WING BULLSHIT.
AND IGNORES TOTALLY THE CONSERVATIVE, CHURCH-GOING JUDGE WHO WEIGHED THE EVIDENCE AND MADE THE DECISION!!!
WHAT AN IDIOT!!!
@32 Not stupid — a liar.
Gotta give XmasShroud credit for 1 thing though — she takes all the abuse we heap on her and still sticks around — she’s not a cut-and-run chickenshit like that John MacDonald guy who lasted only 3 weeks on HA.
Of course, everyone knows what we do here is just good clean fun.
Headlice why won’t you answer my questions?
Are they too tuff?
Bwak Bwak!
Stupidman@4: Interesting numbering schema – 1, 1a, 2, 2, 3, 3a. Absolutely pathetic!
When did life begin?
proud leftist says: If only more Republicans would recognize that suicide would put an end to their twisted delusions and the angst-ridden gender dysphoria that tortures so many of them . . .
Please… show us Republicans how it’s done Proud Libtard!
How Democrats Help the GOP Steal Elections, and Why Our Guys Help Them
This is a must read, from start to finish. http://tinyurl.com/2ocryq
los idioto…….”AND IGNORES TOTALLY THE CONSERVATIVE, CHURCH-GOING JUDGE WHO WEIGHED THE EVIDENCE AND MADE THE DECISION!!!”
um…the judge was connected with scientology, not christianity. you should get your facts straight.
and he was also the same brilliant guy that wouldn’t give a woman a protection order because her husband wasn’t really going to kill her….YET HE DID, just a few days later. he got slapped on the hand for that. that’s all.
liberals are so full of themselves and sh*&.
pro abortion= “i don’t have to take care of a kid or be responsible…hey works for me”
pro assisted suicide= “i won’t have to take care of my parents or any other elderly or sick person…cause that would take my time up and be ICKY”
it’s just amazing to me how many of you don’t realize that your views put you on the same page as hitler.
yet, you call conservatives nazis????
H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E-S………
Do you really believe it would have been better to keep Shiaevo’s shell alive with machines? Because the technology exists to do something does not make it right.
@11
“What makes this war different from Vietnam is that it’s being fought with an all-volunteer military. While it’s clear that some of those volunteers got more than they bargained for when they enlisted, or couldn’t handle everything the government has asked of them — as shown by the thousands of desertions, not to mention the even larger numbers of troopers who don’t re-enlist ”
Well NPR reports this
Against the Odds, Army Meets Recruiting Goals
by Guy Raz
Morning Edition, May 1, 2007 · The U.S. economy is getting stronger, and the war in Iraq is getting more unpopular. Normally that spells trouble for military recruiters. But for nearly two years, the Army has managed to meet or exceed its recruiting and retention goals.
or this
http://usmilitary.about.com/od.....uiting.htm
Your characterization of our military is classic John Kerry…
If someone were to rely on the lib democrat blather about the war and military, they would start to believe that the war is lost and that our military is strained and at the breaking point.
Well…..NOT
Recruiting is at or above 100%. So is re-enlistment….
They aren’t a bunch of criminals…you love to try that one , or just the “poor and uneducated” -John Kerry/Roger Rabbit.
Hmmmmmm?
So what is the blather about the war? Is it the assertion that we were mislead into the intervention? Is it the shifting justification- depose Saddam, establish democracy, find WMD, fight them there before they follow us here?
Is it the assertion that the intervention was poorly planned and horribly executed?
Help me out.
Why do we need a law saying it’s ok for someone to kill themselves? Just do it. You don’t need a doctor to help you. Just get the drugs, gun, or knife and do it. Our society shouldn’t be making it a law that it’s OK to do though. Society should be about life. Do you not believe in life? Is it not something that is precious? If you don’t think so, then just kill yourself if you don’t care to live.
I don’t believe in it, but I’m not against it if you want to. I hope you don’t, but it is YOUR CHOICE!!!
Taking your own life is the cowards way out….why do I say that? Because my grandfather told that to me as he was dying. Did he hurt? You bet. Dying from Diabetes is a horrible way to go….sometimes. My Uncle succumbed to Diabetes related problem too. “Peacefully” while in sleep after a wonderful Easter Day. We all said he was the best he’d been in a while. Before that, he’d hadn’t been doing well. But as our family thought, that is how our lives are meant to be. God has put us on this Earth and he will take us when he wants us. I know that most of you on this board don’t believe in God or what he has to say, but most of American’s do. If society doesn’t think that helping someone take their own life isn’t right, then that is how it goes. I hope that our system of government and the folks that are elected don’t change that. If they do, then I and everyone else will live with that. I will still believe it is wrong and tell people that.
I know Booth Gardner is backing assisted suicide, but you know what…….if he ever gets to that point, he needs to DECIDE for himself if he wants to die and do it himself. Then he and the lord (I believe he is a Christian) can deal with that DECISION.
One final piece…..I hope that some or all of you take part in the Beat the Bridge this Sunday to help raise funds to cure Diabetes. It’s not AIDS, but is something worth fighting for and something that can be overcome.
40 Now, that’s REALLY disappointing, Ghost. You were almost on the way to making a valid point or two, then you couldn’t help yourself from lapsing into name-calling and pot shots against the character of people you don’t even know.
@ 39 Roger Rabbit says: “How Democrats Help the GOP Steal Elections, and Why Our Guys Help Them- This is a must read, from start to finish.”
Wow Rog, no joking. THAT was seriously interesting – puts a LOT of the pieces together! Strange, I’ve read pieces of it somewhere but can’t place it. Thx for sharing!
Christmasghost:
Many judges, not just one, looked at Ms. Schiavo’s situation and sided with the husband. Since neither you nor I was either in the courtrooms or at Ms. Schiavo’s bedside, I think that hysterical name calling is inappropriate.
Additionally, the autopsy verified what both the husband and the judges said. You’re welcome to concoct some conspiracy that goes all the way to the Supreme Court of the United States, but even you must see that as rather unlikely.
As to the other points. I thought I’d covered it pretty well up around posts 17 and 21, but I don’t always read every post in a long thread, so I can’t expect you to.
But before you call me a Nazi again, please make sure you know what my stated views really are. I don’t generally talk in some sort of liberal code. The posts are in reasonably good American English.
And once you’ve read those posts, you should be able to figure out that nobody here is looking to toss dear old grandma out on the cart.
Many of us, myself included, have had cause to sit at the bedside of a loved one, dying slowly in pain. Some of us have done so more than once.
At that point, it stops being such a clear-cut issue. I would refer you to my father, mother, and one of my grandfathers for clarification, but they were the folks whose bedsides I sat beside. (My other grandparents were lucky enough to die peacefully, without much pain.)
What makes this war different from Vietnam is that it’s being fought with an all-volunteer military. While it’s clear that some of those volunteers got more than they bargained for when they enlisted, or couldn’t handle everything the government has asked of them — as shown by the thousands of desertions, not to mention the even larger numbers of troopers who don’t re-enlist — nevertheless, no one forced any of them to fight this war
Roger, worry about your own ilk. The current fighting US soldier can take care of themselves. Yeah, the overwhelming majority of desserters (pussies) are liberals, but that doesn’t mean you can parade the names of the fallen in your pansy ass liberal parades.
Ahhh It feels good contributing to the moral of our fighting men and women.
Ah, Mr. Rather. Always ready to change the subject when one of your fellow right wing types loses an exchange.
I wholeheartedly agree that you should work to help the morale of our fighting men and women.
Might I suggest joining them? I hope you like hot weather. It gets rather warm this time of year. I know. I’ve been to the Gulf many times.
Yes, Mr. Rather, you and your ilk are always ready to support the troops, as long as it doesn’t involve the least bit of discomfort or inconvenience to you.
@40 “it’s just amazing to me how many of you don’t realize that your views put you on the same page as hitler.z”
Ghost, according to Wingnut Propaganda Central, you’re supposed to call us “commies.” Cripes, you can’t even get THAT right!
Paul Wolfowitz resigned. Oh, Thank Gawd!! A Publican finally resigned because of a sex scandal involving an adult woman!!!
HOORAY!
@41 K, I don’t think there’s a “right” or “wrong” there, because Schiavo couldn’t know the difference, any more than a rock would know whether it was being crushed into gravel.
@42 I didn’t say anything about the military being strained to the breaking point … although I do recall some general (whose qualifications and sources of information are vastly superior to yours) saying it is.
If you don’t mind, given a choice between believing you or the general, I’ll choose the general.
I did say in past posts that the war is lost, which is obvious to nearly everyone except you and Bush.
But since you think this civil war can be won, wrongheaded one, tell me — which side of Iraq’s civil war are we fighting for? The Sunnis or Shiites? I’m curious about that.
All in all, #42 is a pretty vapid response to my #11, in that he doesn’t even bother to address any of the points I raised.
@42 (continued) Oh yeah, one more thing — the Army and Marines are meeting their recruiting goals by lowering standards and accepting idiots, moral defects, and criminals … with the predictable result that people who never should have been in uniform in the first place are now murdering innocent Iraqi citizens, and in the process making our armed forces look like the Japanese at Singapore.
@44 “Why do we need a law saying it’s ok for someone to kill themselves? Just do it.”
Because some people screw up the job, dumbass! And then get prosecuted for attempted suicide (which is against the law). In particular, given Republicans’ track record in everything else, what makes you think they can pull off a suicide?
@44 One of my all-time favorites is the guy who jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge twice. He survived his first leap into the bay; so, the second time, he made sure he landed on the deck of a passing ship.
Ouch! That must have hurt like a sonuvabitch.
@48 Sorry MWS/klake/Dan Blather, but whether they’re in Iraq is my business. See #11(7).
Soldiers not only don’t get to choose which wars to fight, they also don’t get to choose to start wars or keep them going. That’s not their decision to make. That decision belongs to the country was a whole.
@49 “Yes, Mr. Rather, you and your ilk are always ready to support the troops, as long as it doesn’t involve the least bit of discomfort or inconvenience to you.”
You forgot “taxes.” How could you miss “taxes,” John? Your comment should read:
“Yes, Mr. Rather, you and your ilk are always ready to support the troops, as long as it doesn’t involve the least bit of discomfort, inconvenience, or taxes to you.”
As always, the members of the Freeloader Party expect a free ride.
@51 I can’t wait to find out which GOP presidential candidate has been poking kids.
Betcha it’s one of the evangelical family-values types.
Yes, Mr. Rather, you and your ilk are always ready to support the troops, as long as it doesn’t involve the least bit of discomfort, inconvenience, or taxes to you.”
As always, the members of the Freeloader Party expect a free ride.
05/19/2007 at 12:25 am
You got it all wrong. I am all for cutting taxes and shifting taxes from the failed social programs to our military. It is the liberal social spending I am against, not the military.
Might I suggest joining them? I hope you like hot weather. It gets rather warm this time of year. I know. I’ve been to the Gulf many times.
Why? Enough of my ilk is already fighting. I need to stay home and vote. The real enemy is liberals who dont care about the troops and use every excuse in the book to keep them from voting.
64
That or a public school teacher. Who said the unions are dead.
Why can the repubs debate on MSNBC with a lefty waterboy like Chris Mathews, but the left can’t go on Fox? Oh that is right, liberals are pussies. Nevermind. heehhehehehe
Too bad the right wingers don’t have the courage of their convictions. If they had any stones at all, they would have boycotted the MSNBC debate where they might actually face real questions as opposed to the GOP News Channel. I guess you can’t expect much from the Publicans. After all, they’re in bed with the terrorists and are just as cowardly.
Let’s see – who’s responsible for compiling the recruitment numbers for the military. That would be the Bush regime. The same team that told us there was an immediate danger Saddam would use WMD’s on us if we didn’t attack Iraq – the same team that told us MISSION ACCOMPLISHED – the same team that lied to us about Pat Tilman, etc. Yeah – I believe em. Sure I do.
um…the judge was connected with scientology, not christianity.
GHOST CHECK YOURSELF INTO A HOSPITAL.
YOU’RE HAVING DELUSIONS.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....mig19.html
Man this immigration deal is really good for the Dems. We’re gonna split the already fractured Publican party. They’ll start attacking each other and not even the grand lies of Karl Rove will save them.
Since the “supporting the troops” theme seems to be a popular one today, let’s get a few tidbits from Mr. Philpott’s column. For those that do not have newspapers that are concerned with the military, his column can be found at http://www.militaryupdate.com/
First up, pay. Always a big item for the troops. The Bush administration wants a smaller pay raise than the Congress. Not terribly surprising, as this has been one area where even the House Republicans have been battling the administration for years.
Next, healthcare for retired military. Certainly a biggie for yours truly. Once again, the White House is disappointed that the 2008 defense authorization bill will not allow DOD officials (the civilian suits) to raise TRICARE fees and copayments.
Just so that we don’t get the impression that the only thing that the Bush administration is interested in is cutting costs at the expense of the troops and retirees, the administration “strongly opposes” a provision in the house bill to require drug manufacturers to give DOD the same price discounts on drugs dispensed through the TRICARE retail network that they provide to base pharmacies.
(For those that do not know about TRICARE, it’s the military health care plan for military families and retirees.)
The administration also opposes a provision that would transfer oversight for the reserve’s version of the GI Bill from DOD to the Dept. of Veterans Affairs. Proponents of the change say it’s a first step toward raising the reserve benefits, then keeping them in step with VA provided active duty GI bill benefits.
So, to wrap up. The Bush administration:
1) Wants a smaller pay raise for the troops
2) Wants to raise the cost for retired military health benefits
3) Wants to keep drug prices for military families and retirees high
4) Doesn’t want to raise GI bill benefits for reservists, many of whom have already served multiple tours in Iraq.
Way to support the troops Mr. President!
IF YOU RAISE PAY AND BENEFITS FOR THE TROOPS AND RETIREES THAT MEANS LESS MONEY FOR DEFENSE CONTRACT BOONDOGGLES.
AND CORRUPTION IS WHAT THE BUSHIES ARE ALL ABOUT!
YET THE SYCOPHANTS (LIKE PUDDYWHACKO) CONTINUE TO WORSHIP THESE GHOULS!
Too bad the right wingers don’t have the courage of their convictions. If they had any stones at all, they would have boycotted the MSNBC debate where they might actually face real questions as opposed to the GOP News Channel. I guess you can’t expect much from the Publicans. After all, they’re in bed with the terrorists and are just as cowardly.
You got that right. The liberals have the courage of their conviction of being a pussy. Hehehehe Its no big deal, eveyone knows the left always loses in a serious debate. I dont blame them.
Since the “supporting the troops” theme seems to be a popular one today, let’s get a few tidbits from Mr. Philpott’s column
Ohhh this is going to be good. A real live liberal patriot who served in the coast guard!!!!! hahahahahahahahhahahah
ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahaahahhahahahahahhaha
Oh, Mr. Rather. I’m so glad to lay out simple traps for the unaware and have them stepped into.
First, Mr. Philpott is indeed a Coast Guard Veteran. You’ll find that military folks consider the Coast Guard to be part of us, and we have a great deal of respect for the Coast Guard. Currently, the Coast Guard has deployed its largest contingent of Coast Guard members and assets overseas since the Vietnam conflict, in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom.
In small words, just for you, they are part of the fight in Iraq, and their lives are at risk.
Yes, there are some friendly inter-service rivalries, but you will find that when some seat-warming civilian starts belittling one of us, all the rest of us tend to rally ’round.
Next, it should be noted that Mr. Philpott is not just some odd blogger. He’s a respected columnist for Stars and Stripes and the Military Times group of papers (you probably don’t know those papers, as they are primarily sold on military bases, and you don’t get to shop in the Exchange).
His column also appears in any number of papers nationwide, primarily in areas with a high concentration of military personnel.
So, Mr. Rather, while you’re belittling the service of an actual Veteran that has served his country well and faithfully, I also note that you haven’t managed to dispute a single one of the points from his column.
Nice to see that you think so little of us Veterans, Mr. Rather.
Oh, and Mr. Rather?
By now even you should realize that when speaking on matters of the military, it really does help to have some experience as a member of the military. I do strongly encourage you to get some, and will be happy to get the phone numbers and addresses of the military recruiters in any local city for you.
But until you do that, debating military and Veterans’ issues with a twenty-one year Veteran is probably not the smartest thing you could do.
And considering my extremely low opinion of your intelligence, my saying that something isn’t the smartest thing that you could do is pretty drastic.
Speaking of “Dan Rather”…we watched the CBS special honoring Walter Cronkite on his 90th birthday. I found it genuinely depressing, because it made it all the more obvious the shitty state to which broadcast “journalism” has sunk since his watch.
Chris Matthews a “liberal waterboy”
HA! HA! HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!HA! HA!
That’s almost as funny as the idea that Tim Russert gets to interview Bush because he asks “hard questions”.
51 Big deal. He’s staying, with one hand in the till and the other up his girlfriend’s skirt, until the end of June. Then Bush gets to appoint something even worse during the 4th of July recess.
JOHN,
NICE TAKEDOWN OF THIS RATHER IDIOT WHO’S REAL IDENTITY IS
DOOFUS!
Jenna Bush says:
Paul Wolfowitz resigned. Oh, Thank Gawd!! A Publican finally resigned because of a sex scandal involving an adult woman!!!
–Yes he was dating a Muslim woman and got her a pay raise. Moonbat!s can have Republicans dating Muslim women!
YOS LIB BRO says: JOHN,
NICE TAKEDOWN OF THIS RATHER IDIOT WHO’S REAL IDENTITY IS
DOOFUS!
Cluelessman: Again, you didn’t figger it out, Voice of Chalk Scratch gave it to you.
Waaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa haaa
Moonbat!s are toooooo stupid to figger things out, so the ‘Tard who watches IP Addresses has to help is mind numbed ‘Wipes!