Rep. Chris Cannon (R-Utah) arguing that taxpayer-funded NASA scientists are not entitled to free speech:
“Free speech is not a simple thing and is subject to and directed by policy.”
Yeah… I guess if the White House pays for the research, it gets to determine the results.
Minnesota lawmaker proposes to appoint Poet Laureate:
Section 1. [138.99] POET LAUREATE
Subdivision 1. Appointment.
The Gov’ shall appoint a state poet laureate,
Who shall serve for a four-year term.
Because this appointment will always be great,
There’s no need for the Senate to confirm.
In appointing a poet for the public good,
And to ensure there’s no unjust omission,
The governor shall consider, if he would
Thoughts of the Humanities Commission.
Subd. 2. Removal.
The poet will be free to write rhyming lines,
With removal only for cause,
But we trust that the bard will promptly resign,
If the verse reads as badly as laws.
Subd. 3. Compensation.
‘Twould be fair to provide some just recompense
As reward for the poet’s tribulations,
But because at this time we haven’t the cents
We’re afraid there is no compensation.
But we ask as the poet travels the state,
And the people their ears they lend,
That our learned Commission take the position
To provide the poor poet a stipend.
Subd. 4. Gifts and grants.
To provide the support that needs to come
To support our new laureate,
Gifts and grants received of a generous sum,
We hereby appropriate.
http://www.revisor.leg.state.m.....ssion=ls85
“Yeah… I guess if the White House pays for the research, it gets to determine the results.”
This sound similar to Oregons governer trying to fire Oregons state climatologist for not towing the GW line.
Yeah, I guess if the state pays for the research, it gets to determine the results.
Hey wait! Our governer’s a Democrat in the pocket of the evironazi lobby!
Do you think it’s wrong to silence a scientist who doesn’t tow a political parties line?
I sure do.
So far, only a democrat has done so.
DEMOCRATS REJECT BUSH ULTIMATUM, VOW TO ISSUE SUBPOENAES
In this morning’s news, Democrats swiftly rejected Bush’s threats to resist efforts to force Karl Rove, Harriet Miers, and other White House staffers to testify under oath concerning the U.S. Attorney scandal, and said the House will take action as early as Tuesday to begin issuing subpoenaes.
@1 Could be the start of a trend. On the other hand, modern judicial decision writers have yet to catch up to their 19th-century predecessors.
What HorsesAss really needs is its own poet laureate! I ain’t much of a verse writer, but to get the ball rolling, I offer this:
Cheney ducks
While Bush sucks.
@2 Another fucking wingnut idiot who can’t spell simple words like “toe.” Whatsamatter, Anti-Lefty, is three letters too many for ya?
Another home-school dropout implodes on the HA message board …
If NASA scientists can only say what Pukes want to hear, then I don’t see any value in spending my hard-earned tax dollars to send them up there.
I think Democrats should eliminate NASA’s budget.
“McKay went from hero to zero with Justice Department
“By David Bowermaster
“Seattle Times staff reporter
“In the span of less than a month last summer, John McKay went from a candidate for a federal judgeship with the support of his boss, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, to an out-of-favor employee who was about to lose his job.
“The support for a McKay judgeship was so strong that when the Justice Department learned he was not among three finalists to fill a seat on the federal bench, a senior official told the White House McKay had gotten ‘screwed.’ Four weeks later, the same official recommended the White House fire McKay ….
“E-mails show Justice Department officials were angry with McKay’s aggressive advocacy of an information-sharing system that conflicted with one favored by headquarters staff …. The material also includes complaints to Gonzales from Washington state Republicans angered that McKay did not file criminal charges in connection with the disputed 2004 governor’s race.
“McKay said earlier this month that during his White House interview for the judgeship, he was asked to explain Republican accusations that he ‘mishandled’ the 2004 election. …
“Democrats believe McKay was fired because Republicans were unhappy that he failed to file criminal charges in connection with Washington state’s 2004 governor’s race ….
“Included in the material released Monday is an April 1, 2005, letter from six Republicans on the Metropolitan King County Council to the Justice Department calling for a federal investigation into the 2004 election — an investigation McKay’s office would have had to oversee.
“Also in the materials were two formal complaints to Gonzales from Bob Williams, president of the Evergreen Freedom Foundation, an Olympia-based conservative think thank, about McKay and the 2004 governor’s race. The second Freedom Foundation complaint, dated Feb. 3, 2006, accused McKay of ‘serious charges of malfeasance.’ …”
Quoted under Fair Use; for complete story and/or copyright info see http://tinyurl.com/35kx8x
Executive summary: Stamped “Reject” because not a team player.
How do we explaining the warming currently underway on other planets and moons in the solar system?
Here’s a letter to the Fishwrapper worth quoting:
“In February, we learned that the Army, in order to meet recruiting goals, is granting ‘moral waivers’ to people … convicted of crimes such as aggravated assault and robbery.
“This month, Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, declared that perfectly law-abiding lesbians and gay men should be barred from military service because, in his view, their private conduct is immoral. …
“What sort of world does the general inhabit, where robbery is moral enough but love is not?
— Julie Shapiro, Associate Professor of Law, Seattle University School of Law”
http://tinyurl.com/22dsl2
@9 “How do we explaining the warming currently underway on other planets and moons in the solar system?
Hot air ejected into space from wherever Republicans gather.
Roger, Roger, please go easy on them. They live in a fantasy world, and any information that does not fit their ideology will be instantly rejected by their tiny pea brains.
They live in denial, and the only statement that makes sense to them is “Clinton did it too”.
Today’s Republicon Party is pretty much yesterday’s snake oil salesmen. The snake oil is actually crude……
Today’s Republicon voter is like the people that bought the snake oil, and swear it reduced swelling on their genetal warts…..
How many Republicons think the world is only 6,000 years old? Millions!!!
It will take generations to clean up the stench Bush, and today’s fake Republicons fake Conservatives saddled their party with. I should know. I used to be a Republicon.
Goldy, like the other guy
You guys already censor scientists who don’t toe the line on global cooling (or its permutations)
Senator Feinstein asks questions about other prosecutor that quit to go to work for the law firm defending the Congressman that she was investigating. Something smells fishy here…..
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/....._0320.html
We now know why noone was arrested for the voter purge of 92,000 legitimate voters in Florida in 2000. Much less all the fraud, intimidation and coverups in Ohio 2004.
Bush, and Rove appear to have been pulling on the strings of justice for some times…..
Hiding behind his privilege!
Bush is not entitled to shield Karl Rove from the U.S. attorneys scandal. Just ask Tony Snow, who once denounced “executive privilege” as a cynical evasion of law.
Okay Snow….now what?!
Wait till you hear the new Republicon talking point.
“Bush is allowed to tell the prosecutors that serve at his pleasure who to prosecute, and which crimes are to be ignored”. “He is the decider, and he decides who goes to jail, and who does not”.
Just waiting……
Now is the time for every honest American to demand investigations into all the obvious crimes the GOP committed in places like Ohio, and Florida that have not been investigated.
Turn up the heat on these sleazebags.
By the way, pressuring McKay is a crime. Who in our state’s GOP pressured him? Time to testify Mr. McKay….. You have already made comments that may be describing criminal behavior.
Yes the Dems should look up all the instances of Publican cowards claiming Executive Privelege was not Constitutional. Hell, all we have to do is go over the Faux News archives to find all the right wing talking heads mirroring this and we’ll use it to undercut the pretend president’s attempt to hide the truth.
You hear the righties all the time supporting law and order legislation saying shit like, “If you have nothing to hide, why wouldn’t you want to talk to the police?”
Well right back at you hypocrites…if your boy has nothing to hide, why not let his minions testify under oath? Unless of course you want to hide the truth. Any moron can see through this, and if it’s possible to go lower than 30%, Bush will prove it with this move.
Hey righies – how’s it feel to know that 7 out of 10 Americans think the Bush regime is full of shit? And how’s it feel to realize that you’re one of the ignorant motherfuckers stuck on the wrong side of that fence?
HE HE!
“Roger, Roger, please go easy on them. They live in a fantasy world, and any information that does not fit their ideology will be instantly rejected by their tiny pea brains.”
You just described the left.
Let’s play a game.
You post articles about death threats that scientists belonging to the Church of Global warming have received.
I’ll post death threats received by members of the skeptic scientific community.
BTW none of you nutroots are concerned that Oregon’s Executive branch silenced a leading climate scientist because he thinks science should prove global warming – not politicians.
That doesn’t scare you?
You don’t think Nazi-like tactics by Oregon’s Democrats is “bad”?
I sense hypocrisy.
Imagine if Bush said the following. You nutroots would go insane.
A leading democrat says he must control what a scientists says.
Defend it Libtards.
“Governor Ted Kulongoski (D-Oregon) says the state’s current climatologist must be replaced. “The man is an unbeliever in global warming. Having him in this position undermines my ability to convince the citizens that we must raise taxes, restrict travel, rein-in consumption and lead more regulated lives if we are to combat the global warming crisis.”
George Taylor, a professor at Oregon State University, has held the title of “State Climatologist” since being named to the post by the University in 1991. Taylor doesn’t dispute data that show global temperatures have increased over the past century. He maintains, though, that natural factors have played a bigger role than man in this trend.
Sen. Brad Avakian (D-Washington County) is sponsoring a bill that would allow the governor to appoint the state’s climatologist. “The notion that the state’s climatologist ought to be some ‘ivory tower’ academic is politically unacceptable,” Avakian said. “Global warming is too important an issue to be left to an unappointed scientist. We must have policy consistency. If the governor says there is global warming and man has caused it we can’t have some pointy-headed intellectual rocking the boat.”
19 – FREEPER CRAP.
Why is social security taxed in some cases? You don’t get a deduction from you taxes as you put money into the system over your working life, yet, if you have other sources of income when you’re getting social security, up to 85% of your social security is taxed as ordinary income.
The general rule in taxation (in this area)is that if you didn’t get a deduction for the expense, the benefit that flows from it comes to you tax free. When you buy a life insurance policy, you get no deduction for the premiums you pay, but your beneificary gets the insurance benefit tax-free when you pass on. If you make contributions to a Roth IRA, your benefits will come to you tax-free in retirement.
So, why is social security taxed under any circumstance if you get no current income tax deduction for it?
HEY FELLOW LIBS, WE GOT A NEW MORON TO ENTERTAIN US. GETS HIS BRAINDEAD NONSENSE FROM FREEPERLAND WHO IN TURNS GETS IT FROM A WINGNUT HALLUCINATORY “SATIRE” SITE.
WE’RE GOING TO HAVE FUN TAKING THIS JERKOFF APART.
My point on No. 10? Please disregard. I’ve dished out a whole lot of inaccurate or just plain stupid comments here at HA over the years, but that one is one of the worst.
Really, there’s no legitimate science behind it. None. Zip. Just some industry stooges and Republicans.
Yeah, I get paid really well to hack, but I have my pride. And principles. And I have to apologize for looking like a complete idiot.
An interesting tidbit, Mr. Lefty. Being that I don’t live in Oregon, I hadn’t heard about this until now. I thank you for pointing me towards an interesting topic, and being the first global warming denier to actually point me to something worth reading. (Well, you didn’t, but my fact-checking on Mr. Taylor did.)
A minor difference between the two situations.
Nobody is telling Mr. Taylor that he may not speak about his views, or trying to end his employment.
They are saying that if there is to be an official “Oregon State Climatologist” that the position should be appointed by the state, rather than by OSU, but they are not trying to make OSU fire or discipline Mr. Taylor.
Beyond that difference, I tend to agree that he should be permitted to speak on the topic, and I will even go one additional step in congratulating the global warming deniers in doing something that I rarely see.
They actually got someone that has at least a bit of expertise in the area.
Oh, more bit. Mr. Taylor has indeed made some controversial statements that have raised the ire of many folks in this debate, and is widely quoted by the folks trying to say that there is no human influence in the current warming trends.
Unfortunately for you, even he doesn’t say that. His position is
and
And, as to his argument with the Arctic Climate Impact Assessment, he makes the following statement:
So, is there disagreement among scientists regarding the degree of influence that human activity is having on the environment? Sure.
But even he doesn’t try to say that we are not having a significant influence, he’s just saying that it isn’t the largest influence.
So, even if you agree with Mr. Taylor that we aren’t the largest influence, does that mean that we shouldn’t address the influence we are having?
And before someone jumps on here and makes some statement about how my calling him “Mr. Taylor” is disrespectful, I should point out that the title is accurate. He is neither “Doctor” nor (as far as I can tell) “Professor”.
#21 If the climatologist is opposed to the opinion of 99% of the scientists studying global warming, replace him.
You ever thought about what our climate may be like when the polar ice cap melts in 40 years?
Probably not…… Cons pretty much ignore the future full time. Part of their ideology.
Oregon’s climatologist is not in charge of prosecuting Democrats, and ignoring corrupt Republicans last time I checked also.
This scandal of unequal prosecutions, and playing politics with the justice department is only beginning.
This will get real ugly soon.
Some Democrats are not happy the crimes of all those corrupt Republicans have been ignored by the Bush appointed prosecutors that “did” keep their jobs.
What has Rove got to hide? Why won’t he testify to his innocence, and display how evenhanded the justice dept. has been in the last 6 years. Yeah. I thought so.
By the way. Mr. McKay may not have played Bush’s game, even though he is a loyal Republicon. That is why he was fired. Maybe he believes in justice, instead of politicizing everything. I will give him the benefit of the doubt, but not Rove, or Myers.
Party before country right cons?
Rove is getting his papers this week. He will either testify or go to court on charges of contempt. This is gonna be fun. Worst case, the Publican party looks like it’s hiding something and pays a political cost win or loooooose. Man I love this shit. Looks like we have a Constitutional crisis on our hands. Hopefully, the Dems will take it all the way home and shut down the illegal Bush regime outright if Georgie keeps trying to pull off his coup.
In case you all don’t know it, Typical Lefty is just Puffybutt’s 14th alias.
Puffybutt, your wife sure is ugly – but she gives good head. And she says hi!
Also @ 27
The guy is a meteorologist, not a climatologist.
http://oregonstate.edu/gradwater/bio/taylorg.pdf
Wow!
We’ve gone way off topic. As we were talking about scientists that work for NASA the quote, “Free speech is not a simple thing and is subject to and directed by policy.” is a fair statement.
NASA deals in top secret, secret, and confidential affairs every day. I assume the government employee is subject to something close to the Uniform Code of Military Justice when it comes to these matters.
Just as an 18 yr old guard on a missile uploaded with nukes can’t just phone home and say “Hey Mom! Guess what I did today!” Individuals who work for NASA can’t be holding press conferences and voicing their opinions no matter how benign, inflammatory, or revolutionary they may be.
I would never expect rightwing haters of the Bill of Rights (e.g., 33 above) to understand the following quote, but I’ll offer it nonetheless:
“If the Constitution be picked away by piecemeal, it is gone — and gone as
effectively as if some military despot had grasped it at once, trampled it
beneath his feet, and scattered its loose leaves in the wild winds. ”
— Daniel Webster
@33
“We’ve gone way off topic.”
Does ‘Open thread’ mean anything to you?
.33 it’s an open thread. How can we go off topic??
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17718647/from/RS.1/
Looks like we have another example of the “moral majority” admitting to whoring around drunk as a skunk.
I find it interesting that soon to be felon Tommy Delay, gave up without a fight and then wrote a book called No Surrender. This can only make sense in the mind of an inbred Publican.
Nope,
My first time on anything like this ever. I got here from the “Bumbling Reporter” video on Ebaumsworld.com. She made mention of it when she butchered the name of the site. Thanks for welcoming me so warmly.
No saint himself
DeLay briefly acknowledges indiscretions with alcohol and women, describing himself during his early years in the Texas legislature and Congress as a party boy with a roving eye.
“I drank too much,” he writes. “I slept with women I wasn’t married to. I neglected my family. This is the truth, and I recount it with a deep sense of grief that I ever lived in such a manner.”
AND THIS MORON HAS THE GALL TO BE HOLIER THAN THOU. I HOPE HE’S NAILED AND THROWN IN JAIL.
Congressional oversight — what a beautiful thing!!
I just love the fact that the Culture of Corruption is having the light of Truth shed upon it and it is exposing the criminal element of the conservative movement. The more Bush tries to cover up his crimes the tighter the noose gets around the conservative movements neck. I just love it that their “Holier-than-thou”” arrogance is going to be the Achilles Heel that drags them down!
2008 Dems get the White House. President Al Gore.
2008 Dems pick up 7 seats in the Senate
(Repukes are defending 21 of the 33 seats up for election. With all the scandals surfacing these crooks are not going to be able to run from their record of hard core support to the Bush regime. Joe Lieberman will toe the party line or lose his Chairmanships.
2008 Dems continue to control the House.
2010 After capturing or killing Osama bin Laden, restoring peace and order to the world, reviving our economy, and bringing legitimacy back to the Rule of Law and America in the eyes of the world, the Dems will pick up 4 seats in the Senate and retain the House.
(Like 2008, the Repukes have to defend more seats than the Dems do – 19 vs. 15.)
Then President Al Gore will have a filibuster proof majority and we’ll pass legislation to save the human species from extinction due to Global Warming, balance the budget, pay down the Republican National Debt, wipe out the Federal deficit by restoring pay-as-you go government like President Clinton did, advance equal rights to everyone in America, and enjoy Gore’s scandal free 2nd term.
In Gore’s 2nd term he’ll appoint young and ultra left wing liberal judges to the Supreme Court on an “up or down” vote in the Senate. And since it will be filibuster proof, the Culture of Corruption crowd won’t be able to stop it. Of course if we don’t have a filibuster proof majority we’ll just use the “Nuclear Option” on the crooks and ram it right up their worn out ass holes!
It sucks to be a member of the Culture of Corruption.
It’s great to be a Liberal and a patriotic American!!
re2: blah… blah… blah….
You poor, poor victim….
More free speech for you protesters.
http://linfield.facebook.com/a.....d=65201211
A “PEACE” rally in Portland where they burned a US Soldier in effigy. Yeah, you guys sure do support the troops.
re 14: Those who do not believe in global warming have an obvious economic and political ax to grind.
Global warming is not influenced by your belief that it is not happening and is not caused by man’s activities.
I never thought I’d be saying this, but, thanks Tom DeLay for tightening that noose down a little bit harder around the Culture of Corruption’s neck.
It’s nice to get confirmation right from the source that they are in fact hypocrites and attempted to leverage the Impeachment Clause in the Constitution for their own political gain.
Fuckin’ “A”, Conservatives that support Bush and Republicans are truly un-American. All of them and no exceptions.
Union Firewoman @ 41:
Fuck your propoganda, those were Republican plants. You un-patirotic, bin Laden loyalist, dick suck.
38
The drinking and carousing of DeLay’s past are entirely forgivable. It’s the hatred, dishonesty, and arrogance of his present that are not forgivable. Sins of the flesh are something that are hard to control; the sins of the spirit that DeLay so enjoys are easily controllable, he just enjoys them too much to stop.
GBS,
See there you are with your cleverness again. I just don’t know how I could ever measure up to a person like you. Once again, cutting me down by inserting the letters “WO” in front of man, to imply that I am a woman. Is that supposed to be degrading to me? Are you that much of a chauvinist that you believe calling a man a woman is an insult?
Once again, I cannot measure up to your own perceived greatness, so I have just one question, why don’t the organizers of these peaceful protests, reimburse the Cities, towns, Counties and States, for the overtime costs and cleanup costs that are a result of your protest?
41.
I agree that burning a US flag is a stupid thing to do, and such an act wouldn’t be supported by anyone I associate with who opposes the war.
But, the effigy is not of a soldier, it is meant to be a representation of GWB during his famous photo op four years ago aboard the USS Lincoln. Evidently, the demonstrators’ prop supply lacked a flight suit, so they used camouflage fatigues, instead. That Bush was the target of their ire was pretty clear to me from photo #1, but I went through them all.
If you take a close look at photo #17, the young lady with the chalk has started to write on the statue base:
“When Bush was elected to serve
He threw the USA a curve…
Is it better to burn an effigy of Bush than of a soldier? You bet, for it shows a clear understanding of who is responsible for the death, destruction and waste of billions of dollars in Iraq. What makes the demonstration ill conceived is equating Bush with the symbol of the USA. Burning an effigy of Satan along with W would have been more to the point.
For forty years, righties have been attempting to peddle stories of attacks, disrespect and hate for enlisted service personnel. The “case” that these events ever occur is very often misrepresentation of an event, such as what you have referenced.
Ok, Mr. Thresher. Welcome to HorsesAss. As a presumably right-wing poster, you should be aware that this is an entirely uncensored blog, and that it tends to be rather left-wing.
You can say what you want, but expect that your arguments will be knocked down, and since many folks here have a bit of pent-up frustration from being called “traitors” and “terrorists” (and worse) by the right, they have been known to be, shall we say, less that polite to right-wingers posting here.
If that bothers you, well, tough. (Roger usually says it better, but I think he’s sleeping off the results of a long night making up with Mrs. Rabbit.)
On to your argument.
In areas where the information is classified, you are correct. Otherwise they’re not military, and the UCMJ does not apply to them.
But… Nobody is claiming that the information is classified, and while the Bush administration might want to classify research data that disproves their official position, it isn’t that easy. There are laws regarding what may and may not be classified.
The researchers were paid by the government to do research into climate changes. Then the government didn’t like the answers they got and tried to change the report and quash the researchers.
If the government was a private entity, a rather tenuous argument could be made that it was their report and the researchers did their work on the employer’s time.
In this case, however, the government is simply a representative for the public. We paid for that research, we paid for that report, and the government has no right to withhold or amend it.
Sorry Union Fire“MAN” you’re right, I should not have injected “WO” in front of man because that insults women everywhere. I apologize to all women for my offhanded remark.
From now on I’ll just put “MAN” in quotes since you obviously have a problem with your masculinity.
So by your question of Liberals picking up the costs to hold a public demonstration are you then inferring that conservatives ALWAYS reimburse the city, town, county, state, when they protest?
No? Oh, what a shocker a conservative just made a hypocritical statement.
Run along there fire”MAN” there must be an imaginary fire for you to douse — Weeeee Wooooo, Weeeee Wooooo **clang, clang, clang** Rrrrrrr, rrrrrrr, rrrrrrrrrr **honk, honk**
Yeahhhhhhh.
Regarding the president allowing his advisors to testify under oath before Congress…
This is one time when you WON’T hear the wingnuts say:
BUT CLINTON DID IT!!!!!
GBS,
Ummmmm, when and where do republicans protest? And when there are Pro-Troop rallies, yes, we do actually clean up. 2 weeks ago, I had to clean up from the water bottles that were thrown at us. We were holding signs that said we support our troops. No politics, nothing. Stoooopid ignorant libs drove by throwing stuff at us.
Harry,
The uniform of any soldier, sailor, airman should be held in high regard. As far as the picture, it shows a burning of a US soldier, not of the President. And no, I wouldn’t agree with that either.
51.
You, of course, are wrong.
In this case, however, the government is simply a representative for the public. We paid for that research, we paid for that report, and the government has no right to withhold or amend it.
And, in fact, all research by government scientists is a matter of public record and subject to FOIA, unless it is is regarding a matter that might be subject to litigation, like an environmental issue/incident, in which case the research and conclusions are evidence and protected by attorney-client privilege.
Fire”MAN”
Funny, I held up a sign on Monday that said ‘Support Our Troops’ at a peace rally and nobody through anything at me.
IN your situation It must’ve been republicans driving by and coincidentally littering our highways. After all, you’re not known for being good environmentalists and Liberals are. Therefore, the people throwing water bottles were conclusively Republicans. Good thing you cleaned up after your own.
That is, if you’re telling the truth. With the Culture of Corruption crowd you just can’t trust them these days.
In the 90’s I went to the KVI rally led by Kirby Wilbur in downtown Seattle where they protested “Hillary Care.” Those people left trash EVERYWHERE.
So, there you are. Republicans protest and litter. And, Liberals are environmentalists and therefore wouldn’t litter so you’re wrong on both counts.
Sorry, Fire”MAN” you’re just plain wrong on this one. Besides, you have NO WAY of KNOWING who threw what at you and unless you had a chance to question each and every one of them. Stop assuming.
Harry,
Even the poster of the pictures says that she does not support this and is not apart of it. Sooo, let’s look at the pics one by one, there is nothing that says BUSH on any of them.
A picture is worth 1000 words, and you protesters have now spoken.
http://linfield.facebook.com/p.....38;l=c6305
http://linfield.facebook.com/p.....38;l=c6305
http://linfield.facebook.com/p.....38;l=c6305
http://linfield.facebook.com/p.....38;l=c6305
You get the idea. There is nothing on that effigy that identifies it as Bush. There is however, plenty that identifies it as a US Soldier. Even the nametag says US ARMY.
Also, look at the other effigies. Obviously there is some talent in paper mache (Do you libs go t a special class for that?). But the one that is burned, is just a US Soldier uniform. Plain and simple. Make up all the excuses you want, stay as ignorant as you want. If it walks like a duck, Looks like a Duck and Quacks like a Duck, it isn’t a turtle.
Thanks John,
Good to see reasonable people can disagree and still remain civil. I’m not a mark for the GOP by any stretch but I do know protocol from being in a OPSEC/ COMSEC environment at the height of the Cold War.
We’ve paid for all kinds of research that we don’t have access to. I’m not even willing to speculate the debauchery our government is willing to commit to keep up appearances. But I do sleep well at night knowing it’s not me who has that weight on his shoulders at the end of the day.
48 John, thanks be to ya for extending a hearty welcome to Thresher and administering the “quickie orientation”. You did however omit one essential point, which must be officially made to all newbies:
Klake is a nazi.
1 Oh, crikey, another unfunded mandate!
33 That’s an interesting point, but some, not all, of the work at NASA is classified. Just like a lot of other agencies. Hey, if all of DARPA’s work had been declared top secret, we wouldn’t be enjoying the benefits of this here Internet thingie, would we?
Not to say the Bushies couldn’t attempt to suppress the results of any government-funded research they didn’t like by declaring it classified. Considering that they’ve been stomping all over FOIA for years, it wouldn’t surprise me to see ’em try.
@41 nice post.
I would add that those fools who decided to burn a US Serviceman in effigy are connected to the ultra left. Those same people are affilitated with, and connected too, the democrats….
GBS,
The cars had bumper stickers on them that were for John Kerry for President and also had union stickers on them (Oh yeah, but the cars were foreign).
With Regards to the Hilary Care rally, since you were also there, it only shows that other libs must have been there too, therefore littering. See, two can play at this game. Why not actually try for a legitimate debate on the issue. Why just hurl insults? Your comments only go to show why more and more blue collar workers are leaving the democratic party, in search of something better.
Afternoon Libtards!!
I didn’t read the entire thread.
Anyone mention Rove yet?
ROOOOOOOVE!!!!
ARRRRRRRGH!
ROOOOOOOVE!!
Karl Rove is God.
Anyone who causes leftist retards pain is doing Gods works.
I hope more palestinians murdered each other today. That always tickles me. :D
John Barelli.
Your golden boy at NASA is tainted.
Heinz-Kerry bought him off for $250,000.
His scientific credibility is just as shot as if he worked for Exxon.
Tough break.
Research Delawares State climatoligist. Same thing as Oregon.
All over the country the Democrat party is destroying scientists who want real science – not religious GW alarmism.
Union Fireman @ 61 wrote:
“Why not actually try for a legitimate debate on the issue. Why just hurl insults? ”
Now we’re ready for honest debate, sir. Notice my respectful tone?
I will take you at your word 100% on the idea of legitimate debate on the issues instead of hurling insults, so let’s begin.
Those anarchists who burned the effigy of the soldier and held banners that said “Fuck the troops” are not Democrats, nor are they Liberals. They are, in fact, anarchists.
So do admonish the “left” for being anti-troop because of the stupid, but Constitutionally legal acts, by a small group of anarchists who are neither left, Liberal or Democrat is both untrue and insulting.
Can we agree?
Ball’s in your court. I sincerely hope you live up to your words, Union Fireman. I promise to live up to mine.
61 “The cars had bumper stickers on them that were for John Kerry for President and also had union stickers on them (Oh yeah, but the cars were foreign).”
Volvos with cupholders, right?
GBS,
You are the first to actually step up to my challenge of actually debating the issue, rather than hurling insults.
First of all, I have not been able to find where the organizers of this protest actually stated what you just did. In fact, nobody has yet to come out and say that publicly. The fact is, that during many of the Iraq War protests, certain individuals who are not associated with the body, perform acts that are not sanctioned. But when the body doesn’t condemn those acts, we (the rest of America) view them as apart of the protest.
Many times, protesters use acts of Civil Disobedience to get their point across. They line up and get arrested, by on duty police officers who should be focusing on reducing crime, not babysitting. Many of those on duty cops are on overtime (most probably around 50 per hour with a minimum hours billed), then there are court fees (if charges are filed) attorney fees etc etc etc.
I have no problem with an actual protest, that is done within the confines of the law. I support the constitutional right to burn a flag or an effigy of a soldier. I find those actions sickening and disgusting, but our constitution is the greatest living document, and it permits those acts. What I would expect though, is the organizers to step up and condemn the despicable actions of the few. I would expect the Organizers not to continually use the Police force as their personal statement (Cops have much better things to do). I would hope that if damage to public or private property was done, as a result of the protest, that the organizers pay for it.
But during most of the protests, none of those happen. During the WTO riots in Portland, there was wide spread vandalism, that was paid for by taxpayers. Same here in Seattle. It continues across America, with people defacing Congressional offices, leaving burnt remnants of a flag or effigy of a US Soldier on the ground for someone else to pick up.
If someone is at an Iraq War Protest, with inappropriate signs against US Troops, then I would expect those that actually support the troops to step up and either disavow those people or to not allow them to march.
@65,
Actually many Volkswagons and Subarus
67 Actually, I was making reference to one of Limbaugh’s on-air flights of hyperbole a few years back, in which he made reference to a “Latte-drinking, Volvo-driving…freak show”.
Well, nowadays, Volvo is owned by Ford. As a matter of fact, as I’ve mentioned before, our Subaru has a sticker in the window stating it was “proudly built in Indiana”.
re 46: We can repay them with the money recovered from crooked Republican war profiteers.
Union Fireman @ 66:
Kind of surprising, aren’t I?
I was at a MoveOn.org protest event on Monday. What I can say is this; the event, at our location at least, was very peaceful and respectful. We honored the troops that serve and those that have fallen.
We respectfully and solemnly read the names of the 67 Washington state soldiers that have fallen. I invoked ‘veterans privilege’ to read the names of my brother in arms at our event. Not that anyone else would have been disrespectful, I just feel that the honor should first go to the kin of the fallen, followed by veterans, then civilians. Just my military thinking that everything has an order to it, even if it doesn’t (LOL).
What the anarchist have done is so over the top it doesn’t need dissavowment by anyone. To continually have to say “They’re not with us” is some tacit approval that they lean to the left. The fact of the matter an anarchist by definition is neither left nor right.
See, you and I want the same thing for America; the difference is how we achieve that goal. Finding common ground is the cornerstone of the American political system, and has been so since ‘Day 1’.
Anarchist don’t share our common goals. So I don’t feel compelled to always have to prove to someone else with a differing political view they’re not with my organizations. And, just because they’re not with me I don’t assume they’re with you; and you should hold the same view.
In the end, to have protest, and even civil disobedience has a cost to society in the forms you mentioned regarding police protection. It can be argued quite successfully that the cost of inaction or obedient action cost tax payers much, much more. We’ve spent something on the order of $300 billion in Iraq, but the true cost will approach $2 Trillion dollars. So what’s really the bigger cost being burdened by the taxpayers?
Some things, like the Civil Rights era protests, you cannot simply put a price tag on. The cost of police to monitor protests and arrest dissenters is one of the costs of living in a truly free society.
The WTO problems again flow back to anarchists. They are a criminal element, which, quite frankly, most “peace loving” people are intimidated by. Again, it’s the anarchists not the Liberals.
I’ll make you this promise; If I’m at a protest rally and I see a “Fuck the troops” sign, you better believe I’m going to tell my group’s organizer that I am officially no longer with the event, then I’ll politely but firmly ask the dick wads to leave the area. If they don’t comply you’ll probably see me on TV. Either kicking ass or getting my ass kicked. But either way, the pavements turning red.
What’s the next topic, Fireman?
PS: I made up all that shit about the KVI event. That happened before I moved to Seattle. I just listen to Kirby from time to time and picked up on the story.
Oh Cannon, oh Cannon, thy shining story
So replete in thy rightous glory
Such intellect, segacity, at warm repose
Oozing from thy growing nose
Petulance, and arrogance, a dullard’s pass
Remove thy head from thy swarthy ass
GBS,
Yes, the organizers of any protest should disavow and condemn any action(s) from fringe groups. If I hold a Pro-Labor rally, and during the rally a small group of neo-nazi’s show up to protest something with us, I would most certainly condemn their actions and the group as a hole. By not doing so, you are condoning it. By your posts, I bet you would agree with someone who once said;
“the voice that isn’t heard, is the voice that doesn’t speak”
Yes, Police protection came out of the Civil Rights movement. I have no problem with Police “Protection”. I have a problem with police being used to make your statement, by arresting you. The Police are there for your protection, not for you to use to voice your opinion.
Also, if I were on the Anti-War movement, every time I heard about vandalism or inappropriate acts, I would do everything to let everyone around me know, that my beliefs do not include illegal acts. Again, going back to the voice that isn’t heard.
Finally, if The Iraq war costs 2 trillion dollars (I won’t even debate your numbers), what have the protesters getting arrested accomplished, besides wasting taxpayers dollars? There are much more effective and less costly methods of protest, than getting arrested.
Glad to see that someone on this site actually willing to have a meaningful discussion.
How about the issue of Unions using members unions dues for political purposes?
I guess Union Fireman will be the first to disavow all the eliminationist hate speech coming from those right-wing blogs, right?
[crickets]
Union Fireman:
The 2 trillion dollar figure is all inclusive projected costs that includes the monies for the current and future deployments, equipment maintenance and replacement costs, VA admin costs now and into the future etc, etc. There is more to the cost of the war then the $505 billion dollars already spent and there’s certainly more to come.
My point regarding civil disobedience and the cost of arrest is that if protestors cut short the war by protesting it, instead of going along to get along, then the thousands of dollars spent prosecuting them are a mere fraction of the amount we are spending in Iraq right now. Even if we spent ten million dollars on the protestors we would be money ahead if it cut the war short by even 1 day.
As a protestor to the Iraq War I’m not going to waste my time or resources disapproving of every person’s conflicting point of view or illegal acts. If we were to engage in that policy, then we’d end up spending too much of our time and effort diluting our true message.
If conservatives and pro-war Iraq war advocates cannot separate in their minds the fact that anarchists and criminals are not Liberals and Liberals do not condone their illegal acts, then it is a sad day indeed in American politics. Because people like you and I then are no longer discussing the true substance of the issue at hand — America’s involvement in the Iraq War. We are discussing “your perception of guilt by association” minutia. Which, at the end of they day solves nothing of real importance.
If we delve into that style of debate, then it will surely devolve into bitter, partisan attacks that will not resolve the critical problems you and I face as Americans. The fundamental question at this point becomes this: Which is more important; disavowing anarchists or figuring out a way to end our involvement in Iraq?
At stake are the lives of our fellow citizens, the lives of innocent Iraqis, costs spiraling out of control, mismanaged polices, corruption, war profiteering, our moral legitimacy in the eyes of the world, our status as a superpower, and our military that is literally breaking before our very eyes.
I’m strongly pro union although I’ve never belonged to one. My father-in-law was a union carpenter and I know what it did for my wife’s family.
I’m not a big fan of the winner take all in the union dues debate. I think it’s important to recognize that while unions have been traditionally pro Democrat, not all union members are Democrats. I think a good solution is to prorate union dues to political parties based on party affiliation of its members. However, as far as what union will support a particular political candidate it is up to the majority vote of the union. Belonging to a union is not compulsory in order to simply have a job, but may be so for your particular job. In which case, you are free to pursue other employment opportunities which are not unionized. Although, your pay, benefits, retirement, etc will probably be not as good as you’re enjoying right now. Would that be a true statement in your particular case, Union Fireman?
Honestly, I have limited knowledge on this topic and I would really welcome your perspective.
Thanks,
GBS
@73,
If I was affiliated with those organizations then yes, I would condemn them if I felt their actions were wrong.
GBS,
I guess we are at an impasse with regards to Civil Disobedience. You are right that the overall message or debate shouldn’t be about the actions of a few, but it usually is. Take the incident at the Port of Tacoma, between Police and Protesters. Police say 1 thing, the protesters say another. The actual truth is probably a mix of both, however I am inclined to believe that the Police were justified. But when horrendous acts occur (The soldier effigy burning for example) then yes condemnation is more than appropriate. Again, by not doing so, the debate becomes about the actions of a few, not the message of the many.
As far as Union Dues for political purposes go, there is a very simple solution, in my mind. A Voluntary Political Action Fund. My Local has one, as well as my International Union. The biggest roadblock? In most cases the Administration of the Union itself does not want to give up that type of resource. Using Union Dues for endorsement(s) or Independent Expenditures forces all members who pay into the Union to be apart of the political process. Many members of unions don’t wish to have their Union be politically Active.
As far as the makeup of Union members and their political affiliation, the largest firefighters Union in Washington did a survey not to long ago and found that about 50% of their members were either republican or independent leaning republican.
In many cases, the Majority vote for endorsements never happen. Unions have, in their constitution and bylaws, given that power to their executive board.
Yes, the vast majority of Democrats support Unions, but many have used us and hurt us. Firefighters in the State of Washington have one of the worst Pension systems in the nation. Over 1000 members are not eligible for any Medicare benefits. The amount that we are paid (a multiplier of 2% for every year of service. So 30 years gets 60% of the average of the last 5 years of pay). Unfortunately, for many 30 year careers are not possible. We don’t slowly get into a desk job as we get older. We can promote, but are still expected to help carry patients, and run into burning buildings. The authors of our Current Pension system were Democrats. And they continue to impede improvements.
Union Fireman:
Firefighting is a young man’s game, isn’t it? I thought I wanted to be fireman until I was involved in a nasty shipboard fire in the Navy. That pretty much cured me of wanting to do that for a living.
I guess it is an impasse then, but I respect your view on the topic. It’s OK that we disagree.
The real issue is what should we be doing regarding the situation in Iraq?
What is your honest assessment of the situation as it exists right now, and what are you thoughts/ideas about moving forward?
GBS,
Well, my kid brother just returned from his second tour in Iraq. He volunteered to go there both times. He wants the country to be stabilized, before the US pulls out. The vast majority of Soldiers, Sailors and Marines that I talk to, say the same thing. I do have Iraq War veteran friends that think we should begin an immediate pull out, but the vast majority of troops, that I talk to, believe that would be a mistake. As to what I think we should do from here? Simple, quit handcuffing the troops.
My brother told me about one of the first missions he was on, taking enemy fire. It was night and he could tell the general area where he was taking fire from, but didn’t return fire. Why? Because if could not specifically identify the shooter. Our own policies have made it so that we cannot let the troops do their job(s). I am not saying to let the 1st AD roll through Iraq in Tanks killing everything that moves, but I do believe that we need to reevaluate how we conduct the war.
What we do from here? I say more troops more troops more troops. Secure the border with Iran & Syria. Use the Kurdish forces (They seem to be doing very well) and set specific goals for the Iraqi forces to meet. When/If they don’t then I suggest that is when we begin to redistribute our troops. I have also been very much in favor of dividing the country. Bottom line however, I am no longer in the Military, and I am not going to Monday morning armchair quarterback the people that do this for a living. I will support what the Generals on the ground say we need to do.
House approves timetable for Iraq troop withdrawal (surprise!)
WASHINGTON: The House of Representatives voted Friday, by the narrowest possible margin and after an unusually emotional debate, to set a timetable for bringing American troops home from Iraq. The bill received 218 votes in favor, the minimum needed for passage in the 435-seat chamber. There were 212 votes opposed. The Democratic leadership held the voting open for two additional minutes past the originally scheduled 15 to lock up the majority.
Bush, on the other hand, think they lost their minds and vowed to veto the bill. The American People voted overwhelmingly for the democrats not because they loved the democrats but because they are against the war and wanted change via checks and balances. If (when)Bush vetoes the bill and more american soldiers dies or is wounded how will the republicn party be viewed in the eyes of the american people. If the democrat loses they risk being an obsolete party and the presidential election will determin if they survive as a viable political party or not.
We certainly can’t depend on voices from the senate because they are speaking from both ends of their body. From their mouths the Senate committee approved a $122 billion measure Thursday financing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan while from their asses they defied President Bush by calling on him to pull combat troops out of Iraq by next spring. You can’t give a child candy and and then say don’t eat it.
What happens next will be pretty interesting……!