– What Everyone Needs To Know About The Smear Campaign Against Trayvon Martin (1995-2012)
– There’s quite a bit to take in in this Joan Walsh piece.
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Emmett Till whistled at a woman and his father had been court-martialed.
The only clear villain in this Trayvon Martin mess is Al Sharpton. He is reliving the glory of his Tawana Brawley campaign.
In doing so, The “Reverand Al” might as well be working for FOX News. He is hurting the credibility of MSNBC.
Last night Larry O’Donnell joined the Rev. Al in a display of bias against the attorney for Mr. Zimmerman that drove the man out of the studio. Someone needs to explain that the lawyer’s job is protect his client, not engage in a gladiatorial c9ntest on TV.
MSNBC is in danger of becoming the second Sean Hannity Network.
I have written more on The AVE for those of you too young to remember how Sharpton hurt the civil rights movement once before.
@2, A young man is killed, his murder is barely investigated and the killer is allowed to walk away and you’ve reasoned the “only” villain is an activist/TV personality?
Really?
@2,
Wow SJ, that post doesn’t seem to be in your usual style. It’s rare to see one of the usual suspects saying anything against someone like Al Sharpton.
I mentioned last week, just after the initial national story broke, that the NRA was going to go ballistic on this story.
This story is a HUGE threat to them. Their rationale against reasonable gun control has always been that urban people need firearms to protect themselves from thugs and criminals invading their neighborhoods and homes, evoking racist imagery.
The initial response of many Republican politicians was to decry the shooting and call for an investigation, which was, by Republican standards, a fairly reasonable reaction. But this indicated a crack in the wall of solidarity behind the NRA, and wasn’t to be tolerated. If even Republican politicians might be persuaded that the sale of firearms should be restricted from those who don’t have the good sense to use them properly, then who will protect their right to bear arms make money?
So within a day, their crisis management team was at work. Their immediate tactic was to make sure their friends among the wingnuts communicated the proper smear campaign against the victim. The victim was wearing a “hoodie” so it was his bad judgement which caused his own death. He had a less than spotless record in school, having been suspended for carrying an empty bag which might, or might not, have previoiusly contained pot. The story was changed to say that he was attacked by the victim. Unsubstantiated and unsourced rumors were circulated in the blogosphere (and within 24 hour by Fox News) that some un-named witness will say that the shooter was himself attacked by the victim.
This is how the media has been manipulated by the Republicans, the far right wing, and corporate and financial interests for the past two decades. If you know how they work, you can pretty much predict how it’s going to appear in the media over the next several days.
@5 rhp6033,
You’re correct. There is a desperate attempt to change the subject.
Another thing to consider in all of this.
The police report filed at 3:07am the day after Martin was killed identifies Martin, by name, as the victim.
Martin’s body was left in the morgue for three days, classified as a “John Doe.”
PI
There is vast difference between demonizing Trayvon OR Zimmerman and calling out FLA or the local cops for incompetence.
@3 mike
Read more about the harm Sharpton has done in the past AND the personal wealth this has earned him.
He has as much interest in truth or justice as anyone at Fox.
@8 SJ,
Let’s stipulate that Sharpton is a buffoon.
It is irrelevant.
Sharpton is NOT the only clear villain in this Trayvon Martin mess SJ. Not by a long shot.
The “mess” you are referring to is a murder.
The Trayvon Martin shooting was personally devostating to himself and his family. The fact that he was clearly not treated the same way as a white victim, if the shooter were black, reveals that our society still has a long way to go towards racial equality. The positions taken by some on the right wing in attempting to justify this shooting or defame the victim are indefensable.
But while it is interesting to watch the GOP and it’s supporters and minons try to squirm their way out of this mess, remember that Mitt Romney gets another by-week in which national attention is directed toward his unsuitability to be President. Never being one to allow an enemy a respite, let’s get back to the 2012 election for a bit.
First, Romney loses in Lousiana to Santorum, but still picks up delegates. Note that even though the remaining contests are sometimes referred to as “winner take all”, in most states that means the winner of each district takes all. If Romney wins the urban cores and Santorum wins the rest of the state, then Romney keeps marching towards that magic number which guarantees him a first-ballot nomination. That being said, the delegate count is really hard to quantify right now, since a lot of the caucuses and even some primaries to date are advisory only. The actual first ballot votes of many are available to (a) those candidates who remains in the race; (b) the most persuasive; or (c) thi highest bidder.
Neither Santorum nor Gingrich have a prayer of having delegates nailed down for a first ballot victory in advance of the convention. They are hoping to turn the “open” delegates to deprive Romney of the first ballot victory, then using their persuasive powers to get the convention to give them the nomination on the second or third ballot. But that leaves open the door to a variety of “dark horse” candidates who didn’t think they could raise the money or withstand the vetting of the primary process. The nomination could then go to a wild card – Palin, Christie, Jeb Bush, or even Huntsman. (Palin has made no bones about her “availability” to be “drafted” in such a process).
SJ, pull up your britches, turn down that racket, and GET OFF MY LAWN! Seriously dude, that just sounds like the rantings of a cranky old man.
Yes, Sharpton’s and ass who’s really only in it for his own gain, but he’s not a villain and he’s hardly the only one in this for his/her own gain.
The villains here are the guy who shot an unarmed teen and the cops that let him walk.
@10
It’s going to be Romney. Romney’s up 1,277,374 votes over Santorum and has a little over twice the delegates. When it comes to the convention 2/3’s of the folks will line up behind Romney.
Hmm…
My alter-ego seems to have tried to hijack that last comment.
As for Gingrich, his hope was to win big in Lousianna so he could represent the “Southern” wing of the party. That didn’t work, it appears that Santorum has stolen the Evangelical vote which makes up a good part of the southern GOP base.
So as the third-place finisher in delegate count, and with a change in that status unlikely, Gingrich’s only hope is to stay in the race long enough to have a shot at a brokered convention, or at least a seat at the table when the spoils are allocated.
By all accounts, Newt should have been gone a long time ago. His expensive line of credit with the jewelry company, his cruise to the Greek isles in the midst of a busy campaign, and the resignation of his staff were enough to push him out of contention before the Iowa caucus. He didn’t have the big money behind him that Romney and even Rick Perry had. But he stuck in long enough to achieve an improbable win in S. Carolina, and his lack of campaign cash was remedied by a last-minute infusion from a Las Vegas billionionare.
That money is now gone, and it doesn’t look like more is forthcoming. Gingrich’s campaign is on cash-conservation mode, holding low-key rallies attended by a couple hundred people and a few local media. He’s kicked the national press off the airplane – those few who were still there. He’s charging people $50.00 for copies of pictures taken at his rallies, like Disney sells the “splash mountain” photos (does anybody flash for Gingrich photos?).
So for Gingrich, he’s got one more primary left in which he competes, then he’s hoping to coast into the convention on fumes. Given the rather expensive habits of Gingrich and Callista, that’s not a given – both of them like the attention and money that came with being a national candidate, and resorting to the bus circuit and fast-food dinners isn’t Calista’s idea of how that marriage was supposed to work.
Walter Shapiro has already written his obituary of Newt’s political career:
Netw’s Presidential Campaign Eulogy
Let’s see…last year I helped with a fundraising event that raised money for children’s brain cancer research. One of the items we had for sale at the merchandise table in the lobby was a custom-designed hoodie with “angel’s wings” on the back. Should we have been busted for selling “gang paraphernalia”? If I wear the one I bought for myself (particularly if the weather gets good enough for me to get a nice suntan) should I fear for my life?
Michael
First of all, using words like “murder”. and “racism” is every bit as dangerous on our part as Zimmerman’s being franchised to walk around carrying a loaded gun.
For my part, all I know now is that an innocent kid was killed because an effed up society created a fear filled neighborhood. Nothing I have heard supports the claim that the cops OR Zimmerman were racist.
Sharpton and MSNBC are acting as racists. Haven’t you listened to them question whether Zimmerman is “really” “Hispanic?” Why … other than racism are they even asking such a stupid question?
If Sharpton wants to use his MSNBC pulpit to promote himself and ferment racism, then MSNBC ought to sell itself to Fox .
Apparently SCOTUS’s conservative justices feel requiring health care freeloaders to buy their own damn health insurance on penalty of financial fines is a greater intrusion into personal liberties than drafting 19-year-olds to die in wars they don’t believe in.
In conservatives’ view, no sacrifice on the part of citizens to support their aggressive wars is too great; but anything that helps our citizens live healthier and more fruitful lives, however small, is anathema to them.
@16 SJ,
So you’ve got a bee in your bonnet because Sharpton alleges racism? Just WTF are you doing here?
Gee mike ..
WTF are you doing here?
Republicans Caught Lying Again
“Republicans … claimed that Obama-era rules affecting power plants … could cause blackouts. Numerous studies and an Associated Press survey of power plant operators have shown that is not the case.
“Frances Beinecke, president of the Natural Resources Defense Council, called it a ‘historic step … toward protecting the most vulnerable among us — including the elderly and our children — from smog worsened by carbon-fueled climate change.’
“The American Lung Association agreed. ‘Scientists warn that … carbon pollution … will increase … smog levels,’ said board chairman Albert Rizzo. ‘More smog means more childhood asthma attacks and complications for those with lung disease.'”
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_n.....-new-rules
Roger Rabbit Commentary: Why do Republicans love dirty air and hate asthmatic children? And why would anyone vote for these asswipes?
(Full disclosure: Roger Rabbit owns coal stocks and will benefit financially from GOP efforts to block clean air regulations; but fuck Roger Rabbit, clean air for kids is more important than how much money he makes by flipping coal stocks!)
@16
Sharpton’s a complete douche nozzle, why would I listen to him? I haven’t heard a thing the man’s said since the 1980’s.
@19 SJ, I’m commenting about the murder of an unarmed 17 year old that was not investigated such that the killer was allowed to walk away with the murder weapon and other physical evidence of the homicide. I’m commenting that the police authorities who have the legal obligation to investigate and prosecute crimes under Florida statute identified the victim by name and address within 6 hours of the murder, and then tagged the victim as “John Doe”.
You seem to be most upset, not with the murder, not with the obscenely botched investigation and excuse
for not arresting the murderer, but with some statements by an activist/TV personality.
You’ve asserted that in the cold blooded killing of Treyvon Martin the “only clear villain in this Trayvon Martin mess is Al Sharpton.“.
https://twitter.com/#!/mattgutmanABC
Boy Scout
Like it or not, in the US, we do have laws abut presumption of innocence.
That is how our laws work … that is why Ollie North walks free, why OJ Simpson got off,
If you do not like the system, then say how you would fix it!
For my part I HATE racism. I see little difference between how Sharpton and O’Donnel are trying to call Zimmeramn or the Sanford police dept racist and the the denial of racism by Bachmann, O’Reilly, Romney, etc etc.
@25 SJ,
The presumption of innocence is applicable in a trial of a crime. The killer of Trayvon Martin was let free to walk. North and Simpson both went to trial.
How would I fix this situation?
1) Arrest the killer of Martin TODAY and try him for the crime he admitted to committing; killing of Martin.
2) Investigate the FL State Attorney General’s office and the Sanford, FL police department.
25, 26 — It’s unusual for authorities anywhere to let an armed vigilante who shoots an unarmed teenager who wasn’t doing anything walk scot-free with no charges being filed; and when the incident happens in a southern state and the victim is black, it’s inevitable that it will evoke the Deep South’s sordid history of racial discrimination and lynchings. Let’s face it, small-town southern cops don’t have a great reputation to begin with. Maybe for these reasons everyone needs to be extra-careful about sticking to the facts and letting the legal process play out. The media uproar has already gotten to a point where it may be damn near impossible to empanel an impartial jury.
From Officer Timothy Smith’s police report:
“Zimmerman stated he had shot the suspect and was still armed.”
That is PROBABLE CAUSE for a manslaughter charge.
From an article in the Orlando Sentinel
Stopped investigating is exactly what occurred in the killing of Treyvon Martin.
The key word here is”suspect”
“Zimmerman stated he had shot the suspect and was still armed.”
This seems to say that rather than racism, the issue here is vigilantism. Does Zimmerman feel he was acting in the capacity of a law enforcement officer?
SJ: You’re full of shit as usual, you codger.
Sharpton is an imperfect messenger. As is Jesse Jackson, etc. But their message is sound.
In case you haven’t noticed, our politics for the past few years have basically amounted to a Civil War rematch. And the “good guys” are definitely not winning so far as I can tell.
To call Sharpton et al racist for organizing the black community in the face of blatant racialized politics and this killing is beyond silly.
Grow up, old man.
@30, In the Police Report you may notice:
a) The description of the offense on the first page in the “Offense Section” is “homicide”
b) Treyvon Martin is identified on page 2 in the “Person Section” as the “victim”
c) Zimmerman is identified on page 2 in the “Person Section”as the “suspect”.
Zimmerman’s characterization of Martin as a “suspect” may or may not be relevant to his intent in pursuing and killing Martin.
The fact remains that Zimmerman was in possession of the murder weapon when the police arrived and admitted to the officer that he fired the fatal shot.
PROBABLE CAUSE for a manslaughter charge.
re 30: If he had shot a white kid with rich parents who was wearing a hoody (and acting ‘suspicious’) under similar circumstances, what do you think would have happened to Zimmerman?
It’s not a big stretch to see some racism in this instance, although the real problem is Jeb Bush pushing this dangerous and asinine law for cheap political advantage.
re 30: What do you think of Jeb Bush’s actions? Should he be held legally responsible for the ultimate (and very predictable) outcome of this law.
The only thing that will ultimately get this law changed is when bigwigs realize it’s hurting the tourist industry. But for now, we are left to ‘debate’ the merits or lack-of of this pap.
@34
I don’t think this would have played out any differently if Florida didn’t have a stand your ground law.
******************
I do wonder what would have happened if the victim who was shot was known to the police, if he was on the same sports team as one of the cops kids or something, and the shooter wasn’t known to the police.
I’m reading that the solicitor general flamed out arguing for the individual mandate in front of the SCOTUS..
Makes the more conspiratorial minded among us wonder if he was drugged..
Oh well another Republican idea goes down the tubes.
There are conflicting allegations in the Trayvon Martin killing. There is now a Black Police Chief in charge of the City. Why not wait for all the information to be vetted, witnesses interviewed before jumping to conclusions like you did about the Duke LaCross team??
Jumping to conclusions without all the facts vetted smacks of a public lynching.
SJ is being reasonable.
Mike merely wants to try and make political hay…no matter what the facts ultimately turn out to be.
Mike said Zimmerman walked away with the murder weapon?? Is that true? Zimmerman already admitted being the shooter anyway.
Interesting that SOME of the far-left would publicly Lynch Zimmerman before all the facts are in. Means only one thing. politics.
shame on those of you who jumped to conclusions again.
#30 & 34,
It has been over 30 days since Zimmerman shot and killed Martin. The killer has yet to be charged.
Why?
According to Sanford, FL City Manager,Norton N. Bonaparte, Jr.:
We have news today that the officer wanted Zimmerman charged.
But we only know what we know now because so many people have protested and demanded to know for over one month. Even buffoons like Sharpton have served a purpose in getting this information out.
Would it have been necessary if the murdered was a rich white person? Maybe or maybe not. History tells us the likelihood of justice for a black man in the south.
Like Trayvon deserved what he got because he wore a hoodie?
Hmmm. This is just a liberal plot to grab all the aging white male barcalounger surfer’s pop-guns?
Now here’s something whichis guaranteed to get the wingnuts head to explode, in a spectacularly entertaining fashion.
Jane Fonda has been preliminariy selected as the actress to portray Nancy Reagan in an upcoming movie.
Aside from the politics, it makes sense. With just a little makeup Fonda could pass for Nancy Reagan, and the age is a close match for Nancy Regan during the 80’s. And Jane Fonda IS an accomplished accress (on Golden Pond, Mother-in-Law, etc.).
But that’s not going to mean a thing to the right wing. There is NO WAY they are going to allow “Hanoi Jane” to portray St. Ronnie’s wife!
So Jane Fonda will ultimately be replaced – the filmmakers are relying upon Reagan idealouges as the source for a lot of viewers. But until that happens, it will be fun to watch.
@30 That actually should be the point: Zimmerman was an unqualified doofus driving around pretending to be a cop. Making it legal to do so with a firearm turned him into a tragedy waiting to happen. If Martin had been packing as well there probably would have been two dead doofuses in the morgue instead of one. The whole idea of “stand-your-ground” laws is bogus, and a change in concept from what’s been customary since the Code of Hammurabi.
So much for the NRA’s bullshit slogan that “an armed society is a polite society”. Hell, at this rate there’ll be no society at all.
@38. David C,
No, it appears that the police have the murder weapon based upon reports I was previously unaware of.
You said “Interesting that SOME of the far-left would publicly Lynch Zimmerman before all the facts are in.”
I know of no one who has said Zimmerman should be lynched. Can you identify a single article of anyone saying Zimmerman should be lynched?
And just so you and I are clear… I am calling for Zimmerman to be arrested and tried in a court of law for the murder of Trayvon Martin.
@38 David C,
I don’t know what you mean by “political hay”, but my motive in being so very vocal about the injustice of the murder of Trayvon Martin not being properly investigated and charged is to hope to have the effect of Liberty and Justice for All.
The crime of murder was committed and justice demands the crime be prosecuted.
Whoops, I posted this on another thread but it appears that this is where the cesspool’s settled to.
– I saw someone make this argument on another site:
1) The flour incident was an assault that was CAUGHT ON CAMERA so there is no defense.
2)The second is a shooting/death however there is NO VIDEO and NO WITNESS to the actual event.
3)You can assume and interpret information all you want but the “Good ol’ U.S.” has laws and a “presumption of innocence until PROVEN guilty“.
P.S. The problem the prosecutor’s office has is that it doesn’t matter what people “think”. It only matters what is admissible and “can be proven“…understand?
@45 Dave,
In case you are unaware, one cannot be “PROVEN guilty” if one has not been charged with a crime.
The admitted killer of Treyvon Martin was intentionally not charged and has yet to be charged.
Despite your being unaware, there is a witness to the killing of Trayvon Martin. That witness is George Zimmerman who told the police he shot Martin. “Zimmerman stated he had shot the suspect and was still armed.”
Zimmerman’s statement to the police officer is PROBABLE CAUSE for Zimmerman’s arrest and charge for murder under the Florida statute.
@44 The bigger issue is the lack of action by the police. That the police department did next to nothing to find out the facts of this case.
@David C.
All we’re asking for is for Zimmerman to be charged with a crime. Maybe as they continue to investigate they’ll turn up evidence that says Zimmerman’s innocent and the charges will be dropped. Maybe Zimmerman will will be found innocent. Who knows. But, we do know that there was enough evidence at the scene (and there still is) for Zimmerman to be charged. So charge him.
@47, Based upon the police report and the ABC news report I cited above @24 it would not be entirely correct to assume the Sanford Police did next to nothing. The Sanford PD could have and should have done more, but the failure of justice in the case of the murder of Trayvon Martin appears to have many fathers.
Why did Treyvon Martin “run away” from Zimmerman while Zimmerman was in his vehicle on the phone with 911?
Why did Zimmerman think Martin was “getting away” and what was Martin “getting away” from when he ran?
Could it be Zimmerman did something to frighten Martin? Why after “just staring” at Zimmerman did the 17 year old “run away”?
Could it be that Treyvon Martin was fearful of Zimmerman? What could Zimmerman have done or shown to Martin while Zimmerman was still in his vehicle that may have motivated Martin to “run away”?
784.011 Assault.—
(1) An “assault” is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.
@50 Put yourself for a moment in Martin’s shoes:
You’re a 17 year old African American kid on the street after dark in a neighborhood in which you know you’re not well known, and some burly dude in civvies gets out of the SUV he’s been following you around in and comes at you brandishing a gun.
Really now, what would you do? Smile?
If you were a 17 year old walking down the street at night and saw a man in a vehicle and he showed you his Kel Tec PF-9 what would you do?
I’d run!
I’d “run away” to “get away” from a man brandishing a gun!
45 – It’d be nice to see your “fuselage” costume displayed on this site:
http://soundpolitics.com/archives/015312.html
re 37: Your impassioned defense of waiting for all the facts to be known before forming an opinion is amusing coming from the conservative side.
…and where’s YOUR original birth certificate?
1) In all actuality your entire comment is utterly baseless and ridiculous but I’ll address the blockquoted item.
Answer: Exactly, and you can’t be “charged” without actual evidence that is likely to convict” Actually you “can” be but it’s not unusual not to be in a situation like this.
2) Seriously, if you are this interested in the legal process (not the court of public opinions, conjecture, and assumptions) then you should take a law class or two. After doing that you’d realize how ridiculous most of your “arguments” are.
—I don’t know why I’m even answering this one but in answer to that entire spew:
3) No one knows why (not you, me, or anyone but Zimmerman). He’s the only one who knows what exactly was meant by running away as well… You’re still “interpreting things and making assumptions. He might have jogged 20 ft to find somewhere to hide, he could have been running for his life (although unlikely-do you seriously think Zimmerman could catch Trayvon???), he could have seen someone he knew and wanted to catch up to them, etc, etc, etc…
Possibilities are numerous but we DO know that Zimmerman gave his side of the case and that “admitting” he shot Trayvon isn’t even close to the only thing required for an arrest. REMEMBER, he’s claiming self defense AND at least ONE witness who corroborated enough of his story to keep him from getting arrested.
Please just try to remember:
Real, admissible, EVIDENCE that will most likely result in a conviction is required to convict someone and occasionally to even arrest (especially in a case like this with no witnesses to counter the self defense argument). Nothing you’ve talked qualifies without having to make assumptions and interpretations to make it fit your belief.
In another post I’ll give a link for you to look at. Whether or not you do is up to you… “if you want to”….
re 45: Dave: It is often instructive to cast the situation a little differently to see the logical mistakes that you are making.
Suppose a black young adult spots Zimmerman at some later date and decides that Zimmerman looks suspicious, as he is armed and has shot and killed an innocent person before.
Zimmerman accosts the young man for following him, words are exchanged, a few blows are exchanged, upon which the young black man shoots Zimmerman dead.
Is this OK in your book?
Dave. You are a blockhead. I think that you are pudge in another guise.
@55. Dave
Where “Dave” leads off with his best response:
Which is it “Dave”? Can’t? or Actually can?
Look despite your being a demonstrable dunce, by Florida statute PROBABLE CAUSE is all that is needed to make an arrest charge in the case of homicide. It is the prosecutor’s job at trial to obtain a conviction.
Regarding your advice about my needing to take courses in law, you have no idea what courses I’ve taken and what degrees in law and other disciplines I have … or don’t.
Here’s the statute which provides law enforcement with the authority to arrest and charge George Zimmerman with the homicide of Treyvon Martin.
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force
And as Sanford Police Detective Serino filed an affidavit on Feb. 26, the night that Martin was shot and killed by Zimmerman, that stated he was unconvinced Zimmerman’s version of events there is ample probable cause for an arrest and charge.
Taken any law courses yourself “Dave”? Or maybe you are self miseducated?
So…
If Mr. Zimmerman is innocent of a crime does that mean in Florida I could grab someone by the front of their shit, drag them down on top of me, have them wail on me a couple of times in an attempt to get away from me, and then I could pull a gun and shoot them? They’re on top of me, they’ve busted my nose, and I’m afraid for my life after all.
1) That’s a purely counterfactual, and thus not provable, argument. Correction: It is provable via time travel, and the ability to recreate the EXACT SAME conditions (with the exception of skin color).
–It’s also a character assumption/assassination as to the the officers on the scene and prosecutors office personnel who, after considering the “available FACTS”, determined that sufficient evidence didn’t exist to act other than the way they did.
–Btw, the prosecutors office trumps a policeman’s opinion as to the “legal basis” for making an arrest. That comment isn’t for rhp because I assume he already knows that.
2) What about the logical and rational fuselager’s (independents) points? RLB want’s to be a “fuselager” too.
55. Dave spews:
you can’t be “charged” without actual evidence that is likely to convict”.
and
Real, admissible, EVIDENCE that will most likely result in a conviction is required to convict someone and occasionally to even arrest (especially in a case like this with no witnesses to counter the self defense argument).
Exactly! The police department didn’t bother to get canvas the area, to follow leads, to do much of anything. If the cops had done their jobs, we would not be having this endless conversation. We would have facts and data that would prove his innocence or guilt.
Is this a pattern? Do the police there routinely have different levels of effort, depending on the shooter and the victim?
Would you be this blase about the police department behavior if that had been your kid?
I’m headed out of the house and I’m wearing a hoody, wish me luck.
@59 Michael
“If Mr. Zimmerman is innocent of a crime does that mean in Florida I could grab someone by the front of their shit, drag them down on top of me, have them wail on me a couple of times in an attempt to get away from me, and then I could pull a gun and shoot them? They’re on top of me, they’ve busted my nose, and I’m afraid for my life after all.”
Or to extend your simile …
Could an armed woman grab some guy, yank open his zipper, pull out his dick, yell rape and then shoot the guy if he tried to run away?
Scary!
@60 Dave,
Really? Where’d you get that?
Cuz what comes out of that hole in your ass is just plain shit “Dave”.
Florida Statute Title XLVII CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AND CORRECTIONS Chapter 901. Look it up genius.
1) Both. Seriously, sign up for some classes so you can stop looking so silly//
2) LOL…
3) YES I DO. It’s very easy to tell that you either A) Have zero college classes or B) Do have a few but received Failing grades in them.
4) Irt the statute (which you posted more of on the following link), I already explained your error in judgement in this comment. I’m pasting the answer from that link below but you may need to refer to your post (in a separate internet window) so you can slowly read and try to understand the reasoning.
Oh heck. Why not just post the statute to help you out? Here’s the applicable pasting from that post of yours on the 20th:
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s.776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force……
……As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
I believe the part you have the hardest time accepting is the last bolded area (probable cause)..
The mere fact that a person who knows as much about “the law” as he does about how to build a time machine, disagrees with the legal system and “believes” there’s sufficient facts to arrest Zimmerman is ABSOLUTELY irrelevant…Friend. Chortle!
@65 Dave, are you drunk? Or otherwise addled by substance, injury or a medical condition?
I’ll answer this one:
No….
Also, your silly example is meaningless unless you can “prove” it to be what happened in FL… Maybe you had a satellite camera on the scene at the time? If so, I can’t wait to see your interview on TV with the video.
Your second example isn’t even worth a comment/
Nope, reading your irrational “thoughts” makes me want a few. If you’re family doesn’t need to be drunk iot be around you they must just ignore you. This also just reminds me of the lack of critical thinking and poor quality of “thinking” citizens that our educational and “parenting” system is “providing”…
@68, For someone who professes not to be addled you certainly exhibit a profuse amount of disjointed and highly emotional driven reasoning.
For example, @65 above
You not only have no idea who I am and no facts to back up your judgment, but despite that you proclaim what is unknowable to you about me in CAPITAL LETTERS.
Seek help Dave.
We’ll, it’s a good thing we have all you experts that know exactly what happened. You should buy tickets to FL so you can go give statements and ID Zimmerman as the one you witnessed commit the crime. Maybe we can skip any further investigation and/or potential trial and just let you all sentence him. After all you have a resident lawyer right? Just promote him to Judge/executioner…///
1) Being willing to look at all sides of an issue is a key part of rational and critical thinking. Meaning, don’t dismiss opinion until you at least look at the rational for it.
2) This is a terrible tragedy but the whole racial/hate crime topic has been way overblown imo. The odds are that this had nothing to do with a race/hate crime (time will tell). We have a presumption of innocence in this country and legal system to follow. Just because the process isn’t moving “fast enough” for you, that’s not justification for the demagoguery and associated visceral, mob mentality being displayed. Remember, innocent until “proven” (by more than popular opinion) guilty…
3) Are people on this site even aware that until this goes through a trial (even if it ends up being civil) only know about 80% of the “facts” will be released?… You can’t make a complete determination without “the rest of the story”. Remember the west Memphis 3 & Duke Lacrosse cases where everyone was “convinced” everyone was “convinced” were guilty?… One of 100’s of cases where people had it all “figured out” (till they didn’t)…
4) I understand the point about not liking a dead boy’s name being dragged around but people also need to understand that when you have a case like this the character of the other person (black, white, Asian, whatever) is going to come into play as part of the defense. Also, if your child was Zimmerman would YOU want people using “assumptions and interpretations” to prejudge, threaten, and convict him OR would you want them to wait for “all” the facts to come out?… I bet it’s the later.. It’s bad both ways but that’s what has to happen in a case like this.
5) As a prior military officer with investigatory experience I always use a pragmatic, rational thought process and don’t jump to any conclusions. People with celebrity influence (including politicians) are extraordinarily out of line making comments other than something to the effect of “this was a tragedy, my condolences, and I have to reserve judgement till the facts come out.”
6) To the people who are so sure about what’s on the 911 tapes: So would you bet all your life savings and one of your kids on what you “think” the tape said? If not, you’re not 100% sure. Btw, saying “we don’t need you to do that” is about a light yr from saying “cease and desist” (legally and otherwise).
7) As far as him not being arrested yet: It’s less common but “far from” unheard of to not be arrested. The actual facts of each case determine that and when/if the prosecution believes there’s sufficient evidence (a witness to the actual “before & after” shooting timeline would help) an arrest will be made. Plenty of cases have occurred where a suspect wasn’t arrested for months after a death.
8) The problem the prosecutor’s office has is that it doesn’t matter what people “think“. It only matters what is admissible and what can be “proven“…understand?
–You’re welcome to look at my full (UPDATED) take on it and provide you’re well thought out opinion. I’m “not” trying to push my opinion/blog (just trying to advance rational critical thinking). If you don’t want to look don’t… I really don’t care but I will provide the option.
Sifting Through the Facts, Furor, and Demagoguery Surrounding the Trayvon Martin Shooting
@69
I did make “1” mistake with my @65 post. I intended to say “no college classes in LAW“.
You may have some education (college or other) in another topic but it’s NOT the legal system. Your words give it away…
@70 “Dave”
(1) Is the Police Report admissible?
(2) Is the 911 call made by George Zimmerman admissible?
Why? Or why not?
Mike–
What don’t you understand about this
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
You are seemingly in a rush to judgment..and may end up looking as stupid as the lefty’s looked in the Duke Lacrosse scandal. Remember that Mike?
How in the hell does some fat 5-7 mexican looking guy run down and assault a 6-3 football playing black guy?
Oh wait, let’s recycle martins 4 year old 7th grade pic some more before answering the question……
There is more to this story than we are being told…..
The facts will come out and justice will be served, but not by the court public opinion.
Tawana brawley! Tawana brawley!
Ya, let’s get reverend al sharpton involved….you know there’s plenty of bs going on if that fuckhead is around.
stupid fuck zots says sharpton has a good message…ya, sure, if your message is to get rich by being a pos poverty pimp..
Sharpton should be in jail…or dead…either would be fine by me….and zots can take his white guilt and join the good reverend 6 feet under..
@73 David C,
As I said before up @58
Sanford Police Detective Serino filed an affidavit on Feb. 26, the night that Martin was shot and killed by Zimmerman, that stated he was unconvinced Zimmerman’s version of events there is ample probable cause for an arrest and charge.
A Sanford FL police officer found probable cause after his investigation.
George Zimmerman should be arrested and charged in the judgment of the investigating detective.
The Florida State Attorney General’s office, which differed with the investigating detective voluntarily decided to step aside from the case to avoid “the appearance of conflict of interest”.
I’m in no rush to judgment Dave C.
It is well past 30 days since the investigating detective recommended the arrest and charging of George Zimmerman with the murder of Trayvon Martin.
I want George Zimmerman to be charged and tried in accordance with the laws of the state of Florida.
Actually, the mental state of the police and prosecutors IS relevant in any federal civil rights prosecution.
Considering the sloppy way the police handled this investigation, it may no longer be possible to successfully prosecute Zimmerman. In the first few hours after a shooting, getting prompt and accurate statements from the parties and potential witnesses is very important. That way their testimony can be investigated and verified by evidence on the scene, by other witnesses, etc. – before they’ve had a chance to change their story, or the cime scene is compromised. A good defense attorney could argue that the mere failure to follow protocol with respect to a homicide investigative may have resulted in the loss of exculpatory evidence, thereby compelling the court to dismiss any charges.
Thus, by making a quick and dirty determination of self-defense without completing an adequate investigation, the police/prosecutors allowed potential testimony and evidence to be lost or compromised, which might itself result in an aquital.
But if the federal prosecutors could prove that the police or prosecutors intended that result in short-circuiting their investigation, then there could be grounds for a prosecution for depriving the victim of his Constitutional civil rights. You could conceivable end up in a situation where the shooter is acquited of murder or manslaughter, but the police or prosecutors are convicted of a seperate civil rights offense.
@78. rhp6033,
I’d have to go and do some research, but I believe that the Feds do not need to prove “intent” on the part of state or local officials. I believe the bar is lower and is closer to malfeasance.
Regarding the outcome of a charge against Zimmerman, even before the uproar Zimmerman’s attorney would serve his client best by accepting a plea bargain. It would not serve Zimmerman’s best interests to let this go to trial.
@41 Some casting director (directoress?) in Hollywood obviously has a dual sense of irony and humor.
But my question is, why does Jane still have to work? Didn’t she get a big enough divorce settlement from Ted Turner?
@74 Any 5’7″ guy who gets out of a car to pick a fight with a
6’3″ guy deserves to get his ass whupped, and whuppin his ass aint a killin offense.
@53 YLB,
There’s a lot of really sick shit over there.
@67
Gawd, you can’t even tell when someone’s just flipping shit.
Great program tonight on the News Hour about the jobs/skills gap in highly skilled manufacturing. Lots of jobs available at 40K a year, but not many people who have the skills to fill them. They also look at how community/technical colleges are linking up with employers to provide programs to train workers.
The Obama Admin’s been big on this sort of thing and it’s one of the places where I really support them and think they deserve props (yeah, I said props and I’m wearing a hoody, shoot me.).
@62, 67
Hey, nothing says thug life like a middle aged white guy rolling though the suburbs in a fleece hoody from Patagonia.
He was following the 6-3 football player in his car. Why would you get out of your car, all by yourself, in the middle of the night when you’ve seen a shady dude that could kick your ass?
Doesn’t sound like a leftist to me!
1) If my logic was mistaken that would apply. Since it’s not. It doesn’t.
2) People here LOVE to make up different scenarios and “relate” it to this specific set of events. No two situations are ever the same. At least use a realistic example if you want to make that “type” of argument. For example: Assume “EVERYTHING” occurred in EXACTLY the same way “except” the skin colors were reversed.
–In that case all my point STILL apply and are just as accurate as they currently are. Go back and read ANY of my posts and assume the skin colors are reversed. Everything still applies.
–Let me guess, now people will want to go off on an “assumption” based tangent and say: “black Zimmerman” would’ve been arrested”. To which I say: Ok Sharpton, thanks for the inflammatory assumptions because that’s all it is! It’s a purely counterfactual, and thus not provable, argument to say “black Zimmerman” (resident of the repeatedly burglarized gated community) would “definitely” be arrested for the shooting of white Trayvon”. Correction: It is provable via time travel, and the ability to recreate the EXACT SAME conditions (with the exception of skin color).
–-It’s also a baseless character assassination as to the the officers on the scene and prosecutors office who, after considering the “available FACTS” (INCLUDING the detectives “opinion”), determined that sufficient evidence did not exist to arrest Zimmerman.
3) Btw, to clarify: One detective’s opinion as to the level of probable cause for an arrest is just that (one person’s opinion). Decisions for/or against an arrest are routinely made without “everyone” in the investigation/prosecution process being in complete agreement. Just because “that” detective believed there was enough probable cause, it doesn’t mean “everyone” was in agreement (which was obviously the case or he’d have been arrested).
1) That’s just more assumptions “UNLESS” you somehow (crystal ball?) know “for sure” exactly how long Zimmerman was in his car and how far he followed him in his car? So did he also drive his car across yards while following Trayvon? You “must” know the answer to that as well correct?
@89
Are you serious???
Of course It’s an assumption! There’s only one assumption, btw.
It’s an assumption based on the fact that Zimmerman told the 911 operators that he was following Martin in his car…
Listen Dave, we’re on a website exchanging idle chatter. The rules are a little different here then they are in a court room.
Ref @89/@86:
I just found your facetious @83 post to my @67 post . If @86 was also facetious I again couldn’t tell. Perhaps I haven’t seen enough of you writing style to notice.
@89
What, you’re not going to comment on Max’s assumption @74?I’m assuming that’s Max. There I go with my fucking assumptions again!
@91
A lot of newbies don’t realize just how much shit we flip on here.
Mike (or do you only go by Michael),
1) You just said it’s an assumption based on a fact. The only thing I’m saying is that this assumption based interpretation on facts is one of the big reasons this case has gotten so crazy in the first place and become a Sharpton field day of inciting MORE racial divisiveness…
2) I understand that but does that mean we just dabble in the random putting together of facts and assumptions (which are meaningless btw) just to make it exciting and meaningless?
Are you saying we can’t talk about facts (even though there are a lot less of them that are known)?
I’m not trying to be a jerk, I’ve just been clarifying the misinterpretation of some things that people are “presenting” as things they “know to be true”. If it’s an assumption I try to state that in my post.
Dave,
Use your imagination. Would you be this dispassionate about the police department inaction if that had been your kid?
Mike @92: There wasn’t mush assumption there but here you go:
1) True statement that I already mentioned @55 #3
2) Not sure if this one has been “proven” yet so it can fall into the assumption category. However, it’s highly probable and I’m interested in the absolute answer myself.
3) True
4) True
@95, you asked the same Q before (@61)so I’ll answer that one:
1) Blase? NO.
Dispassionate?
-From a devoid of personal feeling standpoint, NO.
-From a calm, rational, and impartial perspective YES. Obviously I’d have a period massive grief to deal with but as I worked through the stages of it I’d prioritize the situation and work toward the next objective (discovering the truth).
2) So the answer is yes & no. Yes, I’d still understand that sometimes the justice system works slowly. There have been many cases where suspects aren’t arrested for months/years.
3) However, I’d be a thorn in the side of the police as I used my incredible power of deduction and rational fuselage thinking to “assist” in the investigation.
If I believed Zimmerman was guilty:
– I’d work as hard as possible to “help” provide ideas and concepts for the police to consider. If he was never arrested, I’d realize that either A) there “could be” facts I wasn’t aware of or B) the investigation could still be open without my knowledge and an arrest could come in months/yrs down the road. If he really was guilty God would take care of it.
If I believed my son was at fault:
I would accept the fact that sometimes kids get caught up in things that unfortunately cause bad results. I’d also feel like I failed as a parent to provide better guidance so he would have stayed out of trouble and not been on the path that led to his death…
4) Before I hear the “oh, that’s easy to say” argument: It’s absolutely what I would do. My family and friends would back that up. I’m extremely pragmatic and always a rational thinker. Maybe it’s partly due to my military experience/training and teaching experience irt compartmentalizing and dealing with emergency/emotional situations in a structured and systematic manner.
It could also just be a lucky DNA quality. As in, the evolutionary process of using our heads more and relying less on visceral emotional responses. Aren’t we supposed to evolve to be “better” than the type people who go vigilante or say things like: “we need to drag him behind my pickup”, “he should be shot by someone for what he did”, etc, etc…?
P.S. Just because I have those qualities, that doesn’t mean I don’t have emotions. I love my family and have all the normal ranges of emotions that everyone has.
97. Fair answer. You described your position clearly and logically, and showed me what you value. It’s like you are channeling Spock or Sheldon Cooper and if it works for you, great.
NRA Concealed Carry Hooded Sweatshirt
Just checked the link I left @ 53..
Hmmmm.. Still no Dave playing “independent moderate” at (un)soundpolitics.com..
What do we have here??
Ah I see. This might indicate that Dave leans very far to the rightmost edge of the “fuselage”..
@65 Would you like to tell us what you think “probable cause” means?
@70 You do realize, don’t you, that it’s the “stand your ground” law that’s on trial in the court of public opinion?
@97(3) Hmmm, yes, kids have a way of doing things that worry their parents. Although this is quite different from the Zimmerman-Martin case, I know of a kid who volunteered for Vietnam, survived, then volunteered for a second tour, and that time all his parents got back was a posthumous Congressional Medal of Honor, but a bunch of people are alive because of that kid.
Trayvon killer a Democrat.
http://freebeacon.com/register.....d-trayvon/
@103 I was wondering when the right would get around to labeling Zimmerman a Democrat. What took them so long?
http://www.washingtonmonthly.c.....035347.php
P.S., mebbe Zimmerman is a Democrat, mebbe not. That “source” only claims Zimmerman was a registered Democrat in 2002. Does that mean he hasn’t voted since then? Or does it mean the “source” doesn’t know how to look up voter registration records? Or is too lazy? Who knows? But let’s assume, arguendo, that Zimmerman’s purported 2002 voter registration isn’t bogus, isn’t a concoction of the wingnut propaganda factory. Mebbe he didn’t have a gun in 2002, but sometime after that, he fell in with a bad crowd, and became a Republican and got a gun. How do you know, based on a purported 2002 voter registration, that he wasn’t a Republican when he shot Martin? A lot of things can change in 10 years. Mebbe he got hit on the head and turned into a Republican. Or walked under a ladder or saw a black cat and turned into a Republican. Stranger things have happened. You haven’t proved anything.
In any case, he behaved like a Republican when he appointed himself neighborhood vigilante and went looking for a fight.
103 – Little troll is angered by so many questioning Zimmerman’s killing of an unarmed african-american teenager..
Perhaps little troll would feel calmer if he wore this item of apparel from the NRA store.
Any of you see this article about the Democrat Campaign Treasurer who ripped off Democrats for $7 million?
http://www.foxnews.com/politic.....p=trending
Now lets think thru the irony of this, shall we?
It seems to show the complete lack of accountability by the Democrat Party for spending other people’s money.
I mean what type of Internal Controls do the Democrats have that something of this magnitude could happen?
Do you really want candidates who allow something this egregious to happen to be in charge of our tax dollars??
troll moron @ 107…
Lot of accountability here.
For the holier than thou party, the correct number is ZERO dollars of other people’s money embezzeled.
re 107: Democratic campaign treasurer Kinde Durkee defrauded at least 50 clients. She’s not really a democrat, shes a republican plant and agent saboteur.
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_n.....-out-of-7m
Sorry Charlie. Tricks are for kids. There I go, mixing metaphors again!
Yea, the Republicans are so good at running their own campaigns they had to shut down their own congressional campaign fund in 2008 due to mishandling of the funds!
“David C.” should check his own glass windows before he throws some bricks, or at least have a decent memory. But if all you watch is Fox News and get your marching orders from Roger Ailes and the Republican Spin Machine, I guess that’s not in the S.O.P.
The difference is they find and prosecute Democrats, the republicans would give her a standing ovation and offer her a new job as motivational speaker.
I’m thinking that a good money-maker scheme would be to buy a mailing list of maybe 5,000 southern baptists and fear-market them about the upcoming election.
99% of the funds received would go for administrative costs (mine) and maybe 1% would go to some obscure right-wing religious nutcase’s political action fund.
‘Murka’s under attack from the godless Mohammedans!! Jesus needs your cash money and he needs it now!!
In 2012 election news, former President George H.W. Bush will endorse Mitt Romney shortly. Presumably he’s discussed his plans with his son, Jeb Bush, and he wouldn’t issue his endorsement to Romney if he thought that Jeb Bush would be planning to present himself as an alternate candidate in a brokered convention.
Which means that there might well have been a price for George H.W. Bush’s endorsement – perhaps the V.P. slot or a high-level cabinet post for Jeb Bush? Could a V.P. nomination put Jeb Bush in a good position for the 2016 nomination?
Personally, I think the Bush name carries too much baggage, it’s become something of a parriah to the Tea Party factions.
SJ @ 7,
Perhaps I misunderstood the tone of your remarks. I thought you were criticizing Al Sharpton, and I was assuming you usually supported him in the past.
Juan Williams had an op-ed in the WSJ today saying that, while this recent episode is bad, black people murder other black people sometimes. I predict this will be blown up all over the place, just like Bernie Goldberg’s WSJ op-ed suggesting that the media has a liberal bias.
It kind of remnds me of the witch-hunting days: if someone suggested that the witch hunt was ignorant and stupid, he or she was often labeled a heretic and punished accordingly, often receiving the same punishment as witch.
“Do you really want candidates who”
Hmm, I see your point. With that, I’m now going to vote for Republicans who hate our vets and want to steal their money.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/s.....48913.html
@107
The same shit’s happened to and and been done by Republicans. Yawn.
There used to be this righty blogger over in the Spokane area. His shit was freaking hilarious. You see, he was cheating on his wife and you could tell when he’d gotten himself some illicit loving because the very next day he’d post some tirade about the immorality of the left. Eventually his wife dumped him and he sorta shut down his blog and married the other woman. The other woman is a convicted felon, she took about 120K from a former employer.
Zimmerman video surfaces.
Police station video shows Zimmerman at the police station within one hour of Travon’s murder. No sign of any damage to nose or back of head. No sign of blood. No sign of dirt, grass stains or mud from rolling around on the ground.
Police report identified Travon was filed that night. Listed age, home phone, address. Yet no police office called or went to address. Travon’s body tagged as an adult John Doe even though they knew his identity and that he was a juvenile.
Video contradicts official police report.
“Officer Friendly, you said you observed a broken nose and wounds to the back of the head. Could you please point them out on the video for me?”
Question. Is Officer Friendly going to fall on his sword or will he drag down others with him?
Side question. What is the charge for tampering with evidence?
@118 et seq.: There’s more; ABC News has a story tonight about the Sanford police trying to tamper with a 13-year-old witness by telling him what to say.
The troll Dave’s arguments are becoming increasingly irrelevant as real-world evidence piles up that points to a police coverup of an unlawful killing.
re 121: I’m sure Dave is sanguine about every one of his talking points being gradually usurped by reality. He can simply retreat into the right wing bubble where facts don’t matter, but feelings do.