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I got a chance to talk to a pretty high level WA Democratic party insider last night, someone who works closely with Gregoire’s people. After a few beers, I asked him about the 1% property tax cap and how pushing it will affect the Governor’s standing with the Netroots. First, he just said “she believes it is the right thing to do”. After we had a good laugh, he got down to brass tacks. This is what he said:
– The independent vote is critical. (We all know that). And, taxes are a big issue for independents.
– Losing votes from the Netroots isn’t going to happen. Unlike the Christian right, who stay home when the Rs don’t give them what they want, the (progressive) Netroots are almost all fanatical R haters. What the D candidate does or doesn’t do has no affect on them, once the general election is on (of course, primaries are different; but Gregoire doesn’t face a primary opponent). In other words, the Netroots will turn out in droves and give money in droves to oppose Republicans. This give the Democratic candidate a lot of flexibility.
– As proof of the above, he offered Darcy Burner’s case. She raised a ton of money from Netroots people who wouldn’t have recognized her if she ran over them with a truck. She was a pretty bland candidate – not a great speaker, not a leader for any cause, not some sort of private industry tycoon, and not a public sector rep or expert, but she was the darling of the Netroots here. All of that was simply because they hate the Rs. Darcy could have been a stuffed panda bear, he said, and she would have excited the Netroots just as much. I offered that Darcy’s case was for the national government, not the State, but he said that didn’t matter. Dino here will raise the same amount of money and passion in the Netroots – against him of course, regardless of Gregoire’s actions.
– He also said that the Netroots guys don’t seem to understand the voter Gregoire has to win… the voter who in District 8, for example, voted for Reichart and Cantwell, or statewide the ones who voted for Dino and Kerry in 04. There are, he said, 100K+ of these sort of people, and they are the ones Gregoire doesn’t want to be vulnerable to. Their very existence is something grotesque to the Netroots, moderates who can vote D or R, but in WA state, that is what we have to deal with.
– He repeated that the Netroots will support Gregoire to the hilt, simply because they hate Dino and they have the Republicans. Nothing Gregoire can do will make that hate any less.
I thought it was interesting anyway. And I got some free beers!
– Anon for this (don’t want to get him in trouble)
There’s a great interview with Reverend Billy (who gained the distinction of being permanently banned from all Starbucks locations), from the Church of Stop Shopping, along with Morgan Spurlock who just made a film about him, on Democracy Now today:
http://www.democracynow.org/ar.....21/1520253
Hmmmm. Netroots folks can stay at home at too.
They can also rally behind a primary challenger.
Gregoire gets one more chance with me. And yeah, Dino MUST be defeated. A more moderate R? Sure I’d take a good look at him or her.
No taint of Eymanism or BIAW and I’ll take a REAL good look at him/her.
The WADOT strikes again.
The Port Townsend ferry run has been shut down, although they hope to have a passenger ferry covering it by tomorrow.
The old Steel Electric boats, the only ones that can work in the narrow and shallow confines of Keystone, are all eighty years old…haven’t met Coast Guard standards since the 1950s, and have had corrosion issues for some time. WADOT addressed the corrosion issues by pouring concrete behind the areas of the hull…with Coast Guard mandated inspections every THREE hours, but when they sent the Quinalt to the shipyard for other repairs and they stripped the paint off it, the corrosion under the paint led to basically taking the other remaining three vessels of the class (one was already considered beyond it’s useful life) out of service.
Now two new boats…the least that WADOT indicates can reasonably cover this route, would cost about $140 million apiece. There is a sort of half-baked plan being considered that would replace the HULLS only, swapping the used above decks and powerplant to new bottoms which, if it came in on budget MIGHT only cost $40 million a unit.
The problem is, that entire route has only about three quarter million passengers a year….I know three quarters of a million seems like a non-trivial number, but that’s about 2000 trips a day, most of which is about 300 people in PT commuting back and forth to their jobs on Whidbey Island (600 trips a day, 3000 trips a week), and a similar number commuting from Whidbey to jobs in PT.
In all fairness, we (that is, those of us who have funded WADOT ferries) did induce these people to live that lifestyle by hugely subsidizing this (and all) ferry runs.
But the issue here is that we are looking at a capital investment of somewhere between $280 million and $80 million (insert whatever cost overrun factor you believe appropriate) to take care of a run that only averages a relatively few people, particularly in the winter months when few tourists are using it. For the regualr users, capital costs may well be a half million dollars a head.
So….think we ought to fund this capital cost (and if so, how?) Or should we just shut it down? Or maybe just keep the foot ferry they intend to use temporarily on the run? WADOT was about to (no kidding) sell it (the foot ferry MV Snohomish)on ebay.
@3 “A more moderate R … No taint of Eymanism or BIAW …”
If such candidates existed, there’d be a real Republican Party, and we’d have real elections in this state, but no Dorothy, you’re NOT back in Kansas. The only GOP there is, is in Wonderland.
@4 So? We’re all chipping in to fund your recreational war, which costs more per hour than one of those ferries costs.
@6
“So”?
That’s the best you got?
Why did you even bother to post?
The questions are still the same:
So….think we ought to fund this capital cost (and if so, how?) Or should we just shut it down? Or maybe just keep the foot ferry they intend to use temporarily on the run?
Do you have an answer worth posting?
The only GOP there is, is in Wonderland.
Gee Roger, one can dream. There’s always hope isn’t there?
Speaking of Kansas, it used to be as whacked out as you can get. Now it’s moderated somewhat. Can the same thing happen here?
I’ll answer my own question: yes, it can but first the R’s would have to have a chance to screw things up just as bad as they did in Kansas.
So George, amortize that cost over 50 years (just over half the age of the current fleet) and it doesn’t sound so bad.
There’s nothing wrong with investing in infrastructure, unless you’re a freeloading cheat like Tim Eyman (the postal service dumpster bandit).
So George, amortize that cost over 50 years (just over half the age of the current fleet) and it doesn’t sound so bad.
Actually, it does. That’s still a capital cost of $280 million/50= $5.6 million annually…. about $7.48 per one-way passage of one passenger based upon 750,000 passengers a year. Granted, that’s a lot less than the Sounder subsidy to Snohomish County, but it’s still sizeable. And that of course does not cover the concomitant capital expenditures for docks, holding areas, ticketing facilities, …not to mention O&M costs (personnel, fuel) or the overhead costs that appear nowhere in the WADOT ferry budget (self insurance, to name one).
I realize that buzzwords like “investing in infrastructure” really turn on some people but the fact is that “investing in infrastructure” is much like any other investing. Sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it doesn’t.
My understanding is that we paid BNSF $393 million to make improvements which mainly benefited their freight trains to allow us to put in the Sounder run to Everett….a run that currently carries a few hundred people each way on three (3) runs daily….and BNSF has indicated they will allow no more expansion (not that it would make economic sense anyway).
Good Lord, people, just because it’s Mass Transit doesn’t make it reasonable…otherwise you could be running Boeing 747 shuttles from Paine Field to Renton, Sea Tac, and Boeing Field.
http://www.effectivetransporta.....ed2005.pdf
@7 For 56 years, the ferry system has been considered part of the state highway system. If you’re going to indulge in an exercise of breaking out per-passenger costs for each individual run, then by the same logic, we should look at how many cars and trucks actually use state highways in unpopulated rural parts of the state. The object isn’t always economics or efficiency. Rural mail routes aren’t economical or efficient, either. Neither are rural school bus routes. Taxpayers in other parts of the state or country subsidize those activities so small communities can exist and function as part of the larger society.
If you’re questioning the philosophy behind investing state transportation dollars in linking communities on the Olympic Peninsula to the rest of the Puget Sound region, all I can say is that philosophical decision was made in 1951 and since then there’s never been any public hue and cry to revisit it. We do periodically hear complaints from ferry users about fare increases when inflation pushes operating costs above the available state subsidy funds.
Of course no one wants to pay for a ferry to nowhere. Ridership is certainly a factor that enters into decisionmaking about routes, frequency of schedules, investments in equipment, etc. In this case, the bottom line is that if these boats were on the Bremerton run, the legislature and ferry system would throw big bucks at either fixing or replacing the defective boats, but since the Port Townsend run is a less utilized service, the people who depend on it may find their convenience being compromised by limited resources, either temporarily or permanently.
If you’re truly interested in this issue, you want want to do some research and even talk to the folks at Washington State Ferries and probably also representatives of the Port Angeles and Port Townsend communities (such as their chambers of commerce or ferry riders organization, if they have one). In other words, get facts before you form opinions.
If they can replace the hulls for $40 million per boat, that sounds like a good deal to me. The geography and dockage at Port Townsend dictate purpose-built vessels for that run, which is why they kept using the old boats for so long. Building new boats from scratch will be costly, and if it isn’t necessary, would simply waste scarce resources.
Apparently there’s been some kind of break in the Natalee Holloway missing-person case, with the original suspects re-arrested. Authorities now say these individuals will be put on trial before the end of this year on manslaughter charges.
Waytago, George. You’ve got the whole website stuck on italics.
Waytago, George. You’ve got the whole website stuck on italics. ,
So with half the effort of your post, you could have just put in an italics end html tag……woops…tried that…it doesn’t work. Wonder what I did?
Sorry about that…..blush.
@14 You’re supposed to not fuck up in the first place.
@7 For 56 years, the ferry system has been considered part of the state highway system.
Which certainly doesn’t justify any sort of a knee jerk approval of it. Particularly when on a passenger mile basis, it is both expensive and environmentally not a good option.
But it would be nice if you’d answer the question….
So….think we ought to fund this capital cost (and if so, how?) Or should we just shut it down? Or maybe just keep the foot ferry they intend to use temporarily on the run?
If they can replace the hulls for $40 million per boat, that sounds like a good deal to me. Really? Realizing that the savings in capital costs would largely be offset by the decreased life expectancy of the subsequent refurbished boats? Not to mention increased operating costs, vis a vis new boats? You’d cut down your startup capital costs (from $280 million to $80 million, assuming the job goes as expected…always risky on a refurbishment), but likely have to pay for it later.
Incidentally, the state really WAS about to put these passenger ferries up on Ebay. Minimum bid was going to be $4.5 million, for anyone who wants them.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/us/18ferry.html
@14 You’re supposed to not fuck up in the first place.
Yeah, and in 1996, Sound Transit estimated the total cost of phase 1 would be about $5 billion in year-of-expenditure (YOE) dollars and be completed by 2006. Today, Sound Transit says the total cost of Phase 1 is about $15 billion and will not be finished until around 2020.[2] In other words, Phase 1 is about $10 billion over budget and 14 years late. And it is a hell of a lot less of a system, at least for LINK, than they promised.
If you want to bitch about people fucking up, there are a hell of a lot of things more important to bitch about than forgetting one end tag, IMHO.
@17 I can’t get my paws on Sound Transit, but I’ve got my claws wrapped around you. So let’s talk about you, George. Let’s face it, you’re not the brightest bulb in the HA chandelier. To start with, you shouldn’t be telling me to turn off the italics when you don’t know how to do it. Secondly, I didn’t turn them on, you did. This, by the way, is why I don’t use italics in my posts. Third, what’s Sound Transit got to do with the Port Townsend ferries? Different agency, sucker. Besides, you ought to know by now there’s cost overruns on everything these days. These are devalued Bush dollars we’re paying for stuff with, you know.
Now, as for the substantive stuff, who cares if the superstructure rusts away? That doesn’t matter. The steel under the waterline is what matters. A $40 million boat is better than no boat at all. Why do you have it in for the people living on the Peninsula, just because they tend to vote Democratic?
As for how the ferry system should pay for it, do you expect me to tell you that for free? If you give me a “comptroller” title and pay me $100,000 a year, I’ll tell you how.
But in case you’re wondering, when they’ve had to make capital investments in the past, they floated bonds and used revenues to pay the P & i.
@16 P.S., saving $200 per boat on 4 boats upfront will pay for a lot of things later.
$200 million
“If such candidates existed, there’d be a real Republican Party, and we’d have real elections in this state, but no Dorothy, you’re NOT back in Kansas. The only GOP there is, is in Wonderland.”
Actually many Republicans in this state look more like Democrats in states like, say, Alaska….
It’s just that the entrenched bureaucrats, and ideology in Western WA is sooooooooooo far left that anything close to the middle looks like a right wing nut to you.
Okay George, you’ve got me cornered, so I’m going to make a confession here. I’m kind of a minimalist. Even though I’d love to live like a Republican, I can’t afford to, so I’ve developed a habit of living with “make do” solutions to life’s little practical problems. For example, back in my poor-student days, if my budget didn’t allow me to pay a dealer to install a shiny new exhaust system on my car, I went to a junkyard and bought an old one and attached it to the car with coat hanger wire. Same thing with clothes, instead of buying a new winter coat every year, I get out the needles and thread, and patch the old one. However, if you can’t stand to see your neighbors live this way, call 1-900-GIV2-ROG, have your credit card ready. All proceeds go directly to the Help Roger Rabbit Live Like A Republican Fund.
@22 The fact western Washington has an entrenched ideology of believing in educating everyone’s children, fixing bridges before they collapse, and not starting aggressive wars suits me fine. Obviously, it suits a lot of other western Washington residents just fine, too. If you’d rather live with your own kind, move to eastern Washington. Only 36% of the population there are Democrats. And you’ll have lots of elbow room, because only 21% of the state’s population lives there.
So that leaves eastern Washington Republicans as 13.4% of the state’s population … and they can’t understand why they’re not running the whole fucking state …
I suppose we should have some sort of Republican Party in this country. After all, we don’t want these idiots in our party, and we’ve got to put them somewhere.
George Handjob
Way to identify a total non-issue. I hope Dino runs on this one!
I’ve been looking at this Obama guy, vis-a-vis, Hillary. When I watch Hillary on the tube, she looks like a little kid that needs to go wee-wee really bad, and any delay caused by an embarassing question might force her to piss her pants. Obama, on the other hand, appears to be a cool guy under the scrutiny of the talking heads. I think he might be your better choice, all of you “progressives”, Democrats and other nutcases.
Now, as for the substantive stuff, who cares if the superstructure rusts away?
The US Coast Guard, for one…..
But in case you’re wondering, when they’ve had to make capital investments in the past, they floated bonds and used revenues to pay the P & i.
And what might these revenues be? And how likely are they to be there, with the cost of oil hitting $100 a barrel?
@16 P.S., saving $200 per boat on 4 boats upfront will pay for a lot of things later.
$200 million
Actually, that would be saving $100 million a boat on two boats, but what’s $100 Million a boat, or four boats instead of two boats, to a liberal. It’s all tax money anyway…. LOL
28 p/i
Hillary will eviscerate the lame Republican challengers while they wonder what happened. Barack Obama, on the other hand, will offer hope to America while the Republicans offer fear + rehashes of the same old tired discredited “ideas.”
Good luck, pal.
@27
@16 P.S., saving $200 per boat on 4 boats upfront will pay for a lot of things later.
A $280 million capital shortfall is a non-issue? I take it you either don’t care about the ferries, or don’t pay taxes.
YLB @ 4 — The Netroots rallied behind a primary challenger last time, and then stayed home in droves (or wrote in protest votes) … and came within a gnat’s eyelash of electing Governor Rossi.
SEATTLE (AP) – Governor Gregoire says replacing four 80-year-old ferries will be a top priority for state lawmakers when they meet early next year.
She says she’s talking with legislative leaders about shifting funds for four larger ferries to build boats that could replace the older “steel-electric” class. Those are the only boats that can maneuver the narrow harbor at Keystone on Whidbey Island for the Port Townsend route.
Gregoire told KIRO Radio she agreed with Transportation Secretary Paula Hammond’s decision yesterday to keep the four “steel electric” ferries out of service because of hull corrosion.
Gregoire apologized for the state’s shutting down the Port Townsend-Keystone run on Thanksgiving weekend, but it’s a matter of safety.
Daddy at 30,
So, who would you really, really rather have? Hillary or Obama? My point is that Hillary is a weak sister (no pun intended) when compared to Obama. I think you socialist-types would be better off ensuring he gets the nom versus Hillary. It could be that a yellow cow would beat the Republicans in 2008, but who would really be the better candidate for the whole country? Hillary, Obama, or the yellow cow?
DISASTER IN THE MAKING
Did you realize we have a disaster in the making in Seattle? I refer to something known as the Great Northern train tunnel.Built in 1904 (mainly by Chinese laborers) http://www.historylink.org/ess.....le_id=4029
this mile long tunnel carries mainly freight trains under the city. Unfortunately it also carries Amtrak and the northern leg of Sounder.
The problem is the tunnel is a death trap. It has no ventilation, no fire suppression, and no place to walk, barely allowing two trains to pass one another within the tunnel. Tunnel fires are some of the most difficult to fight, and the Seattle Fire Department identified this problem…but got told to shut up and color, when it looked like their concerns might cost Sound Transit votes. But the realities still haven’t changed.
http://www.discovery.org/a/1803
Tunnel fires are terrible, and if there is one in this tunnel, either by accident or by terrorist activity, there will likely be no survivors.
BNSF isn’t going to fix it, because it meets standards for freight trains (whose workers are covered under worker’s comp anyway, limiting damage to the railroad), but Sounder and Amtrak are the ones with real risk.
Shouldn’t we do something BEFORE someone dies?
Here is an example of the outcome of a tunnel fire.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisda.....418498.stm
All the repubs have to do is repeat the mantra “no new taxes and money for roads” and they win in 2008. I’am glad that the dems finally got a backbone and stood up for what they believed in. Reality is the liberal worst nightmare. It will be a very happy new year indeed for the republican party. hehehehehe
– He also said that the Netroots guys don’t seem to understand the voter Gregoire has to win… the voter who in District 8, for example, voted for Reichart and Cantwell, or statewide the ones who voted for Dino and Kerry in 04. There are, he said, 100K+ of these sort of people, and they are the ones Gregoire doesn’t want to be vulnerable to. Their very existence is something grotesque to the Netroots, moderates who can vote D or R, but in WA state, that is what we have to deal with.
Look for KC to have an unprecedented year in voter registration as they try to register every dead,criminal,illegal voter west of the Mississippi. This is where we repub dogs come in handy. roof roof.
The dems know they are in trouble. Watch the news baby. hehehehe
I’m an asshole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@1
Nobody is staying home in ’08.
Patty Murray is one of the most liberal people in the US Senate and she wins elections by landslide margins.
You loose elections by NOT differentiating yourself from the competition. Gregoire came in a tie last time against a candidate she should have blown out of the water. Too bad she hasn’t learned from her mistakes.
But, thanks for the info. I wont need to waste anytime working on her campaign.
40
Gregoire lost. We are going to right what went wrong in 04. Re-elect Dino Rossi.
JB’s Dog,
Q: Why do dogs lick their balls?
A: Because they can.
Go lick yourself, cur, unless, as is likely, you’ve been deballed.
Q: Why do dogs lick their balls?
A: Because they can.
And they’d better enjoy it quickly, because the libs want them all deballed.
http://www.capitolweekly.net/a.....eitnik0bb3
Bush’s former commander in Iraq, Gen. Sanchez, has publicly endorsed the Democratic bill calling for a pullout of troops by Dec. 31, 2008.
“WASHINGTON (Nov. 21) – Retired Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top commander in Iraq shortly after the fall of Baghdad, said this week he supports Democratic legislation that calls for most troops to come home within a year. …
“This month, the House passed a $50 billion bill that would pay for combat operations but sets the goal that combat end by Dec. 15, 2008. …
“Critical assessments on the war from former Pentagon brass are nothing new. But Sanchez’s … alliance with Democrats is particularly noteworthy because he was directly in charge of combat operations in Iraq ….”
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/e.....5109990001
Bush’s former commander in Iraq, Gen. Sanchez, has publicly endorsed the Democratic bill calling for a pullout of troops by Dec. 31, 2008.
But will Hillary?
@22 “Actually many Republicans in this state look more like Democrats in states like, say, Alaska….”
But most Republicans in this state look more like Republicans in states like, say, Alabama …
@28 Unfortunately for you, the GOP establishment prefers Hillary.
Hillary Clinton is the best Democratic candidate the GOP could nominate.
@29 Why don’t you call the WSF with all these questions, George? I don’t know all this shit. In addition, I’m not your fucking research assistant.
Handjob @ 43
And, what? You believe that the costs of putting down the unfortunate offspring from pets who have wandered afar with testicles intact seeking that sweet smell of the female in heat should be passed on to the public? Is that what you’re saying? What kind of rightwinger are you? Or, are you suggesting that animals have rights, that they should have to consent to getting speyed? Answers, George, we want answers.
@30 If Obama is the Democratic candidate, the GOP hate machine won’t be able to retraint itself, and you’ll see all their ugly racism spitting out of their ugly faces.
42
The last time I got my balls licked was when I was watching Darcy cry at her concession speech. I can’t wait till 2008!! roof roof. hehehehe
@31 George, ferry funding comes from gas taxes, and the vast majority of gas taxes are paid by the 2/3rds of the state’s citizens who live in counties bordering Puget Sound. The state has owned the ferry system for 56 years, through Republican and Democratic administrations alike. If the public didn’t want to pay for it, don’t you think it would have been gone by now?
@31 (continued) That $280 million is a piss in the bucket compared to the $6.6 billion the state is budgeting for the AWV and 520 bridge. It’s a lot cheaper than the Hood Canal bridge. It’s nothing next to the $27 billion some people wanted to spend on light rail. It’s a modest line item in the overall state transportation budget. Now go back to bed, and take your pacifier with you.
@31 (continued) Tell you want, George. If you’d rather leap for the new boats, why don’t you get the ball rolling by organizing a car wash down at the ferry dock.
51
Leave the poor animals alone. I only believe in spay or nuetering democrats… well at least the ones that can breed. Now that is what I call public service.
@33 Thank God we’ve got a governor capable of leading.
@34 There’s absolutely no question that a yellow cow is preferable to anyone the GOP has.
What did WADOT know, and when did they know it?
http://www.komotv.com/news/local/11544881.html
By Associated Press
EVERETT, Wash. (AP) – Washington State Ferries provided an incomplete picture of problems on its oldest vessels when it briefed state lawmakers late last month about detailed inspections of the 80-year-old hulls.
Ferry officials told the Legislature’s Joint Transportation Committee in an Oct. 30 report that the state’s four Steel Electric-class ferries are “generally considered to be in good condition.”
They now acknowledge finding two dozen more cracks in the aging steel than they told lawmakers about. Corrosion of hull plates also is more widespread than reported, and severe enough that more unplanned repairs appear likely for two of the vessels, the Quinault and Klickitat, ferry officials said.
Some information about the Steel Electrics’ problems was purposely omitted from the report to lawmakers, state officials said in interviews. Other troubles have been discovered recently as part of ongoing work to bring the vessels into compliance with Coast Guard orders for stepped up inspection and maintenance.
In its Oct. 30 report to lawmakers, ferry officials described the Quinault as in general being “in good condition throughout.”
On Thursday, a little more than two weeks later, Browning said work done by ferry system crews on the Quinault has turned up extensive corrosion of the 1927-vintage rivited steel plates still found deep in the vessel’s hull along the keel.
State Rep. Lynn Kessler, D-Hoquiam, was assured by the governor that the Steel Electrics are safe. Like Haugen, she was present at the Joint Transportation Committee meeting at the end of October.
She said she was surprised that legislators were not told about the 24 additional cracks on the Illahee and that there was a substantial amount of corrosion on at least one of the vessels.
“If these (ferries) are in that bad of shape, we really need to get down to business and make some very serious decisions,” Kessler said.
She said she would “take the high road” when asked about ferry officials telling her that the ferries are in “good condition.”
“I would like to see the report,” she said. “We need to ask some tough questions.”
Haugen said the culture in the ferry department needs to change.
“What we’re trying to get is more transparency,” Haugen said. “We’ve done it with the rest of the transportation department. All you have to do is look at their gray notebook and you’ll find out more information than you’ll ever want to know. There isn’t the same transparency in the ferry department.”
Haugen and Kessler said shutting down the run is not an option, so the Steel Electrics need to be replaced or salvaged, and quickly.
@34 BTW, could you post a photo of that yellow cow? I’ve never seen one. I’ll bet it’s worth a lot of money.
The ferry fiasco is just another example of why we can’t trust democrats in fixing our transporatation mess. The dems have had full reign of this state for pretty much the last 40 years and we have FU schools, roads and taxes are out of control. That is why Dino is going to win re-election in 2008.
@35 et seq. Thanks for the warning, George. Now let’s play Fear Factor. After riding on a train through the tunnel, you have to eat some live slugs, then ride across Puget Sound on a sinking ferry.
@39 “I’m an asshole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
You flatter yourself too much. You HAVE an asshole, but that’s not the same thing as BEING an asshole. You don’t even come close to being an asshole. You’re just a stupid dog.
@31 George, ferry funding comes from gas taxes, and the vast majority of gas taxes are paid by the 2/3rds of the state’s citizens who live in counties bordering Puget Sound.
And what happens to the revenue from gas taxes when high gas prices force everyone to convert to Prius’s that get 40 mpg? Gas revenues go down.
That’s one of the problem with “sin taxes.”
It’s like with cigarette taxes (and I don’t smoke, personally) Washington State has a tax on cigarettes of over $2 a pack.
http://www.taxadmin.org/FTA/rate/cigarett.html
Initially the money was supposed to go into funding stop smoking programs, but the politicians diverted it to the general fund. Now Olympia is dependent on that tax money…as dependent as the smokers on their nicotine. So we can’t afford to be successful at our stop-smoking campaigns, or the tax base goes away.
So what you are telling me is that the users pay a trivial percentage of the actual costs for the ferries, and depend on everyone else to subsidize them. Except, we are trying to get everyone else to stop using so much gas…meaning we are making it impossible to come up with the $280 million we need to replace these ferries.
You shouldn’t fund something with a death spiral…..that is, if something gets more use, that use should add to its funding, not subtract from it. You understand?
@43 Now there’s an idea. In the case of this particular cur, though, they should use the knife farther up.
@57 Feel free to try neutering me anytime you’re up to it, mutt.
@57 (continued) You’ll look like you were run over by a lawn mower.
@35 et seq. Thanks for the warning, George. Now let’s play Fear Factor. After riding on a train through the tunnel, you have to eat some live slugs, then ride across Puget Sound on a sinking ferry.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
You want to be warned about the Viaduct before or after it collapses on you?
You want to be warned about the Steel-electrics before or after they sink?
You want to be warned about the Seattle train tunnel before or after it kills someone?
It doesn’t take leadership to say after a bunch of people get killed that we ought to have done something different. Leadership is stopping tragedies from happening.
@60 Puget Sound already has lots of submarines. What’s a couple more?
@41
Didn’t say she won. I said she tied. And if we get two candidates that do the same thing all over again we will get the same results all over again. It’s not real hard to figure that out.
Dog @ 62: “The ferry fiasco is just another example of why we can’t trust democrats in fixing our transporatation mess.”
Yes, cur, not funding public services should be blamed on Democrats. Let me try to recall the last time Republicans voted to increase a tax so that public services could survive. You fucks never support any public service and then when a public service has a problem, you blame the Democrats. Guess what, cur, you live in a state full of Democrats. By the way, you said in an earlier post that the last time you got your balls licked was when Darcy Burner gave her concession speech. That would have been in November, 2006. No wonder you’re so fucked up.
@62 Uh-huh. And Dino is going to fix all those problems while cutting taxes?
@65 “So what you are telling me is that the users pay a trivial percentage of the actual costs for the ferries, and depend on everyone else to subsidize them.”
What I’m saying, you stupid shit, is that you should find these things out for yourself instead of depending on others to explain them to you.
Preferably before you post comments that make you look as dumb and uninformed as you actually are.
You believe that the costs of putting down the unfortunate offspring from pets who have wandered afar with testicles intact seeking that sweet smell of the female in heat should be passed on to the public?
Are you any relation to Margaret Sanger?
http://www.blackgenocide.org/sanger.html
@74
Translation…Roger Rabbit doesn’t know the answers, and he embarasses himself trying to keep up with the question.
That’s OK, I’m sure Jessica still loves you….
Handjob @ 76
Wow. Stunning. From a comment about neutering animals, you went to a post about neutering people of color. You are sicker than I thought. You are delusional. Get help. Check out, people, what Handjob says we should look at–76.
Dino has one big problem. He is part of a criminal organization. The Republiconvict Party. It’s not that us “netroots” people hate Republiconvicts. It is we hate all corrupt slimeball politicians, regardless of their party. It’s just that almost all of the sleazebags are Republiconvicts. Name one Republiconvict Leader that doesn’t belong behind bars.
Anyone calling themselves a Republiconvict these days needs mental help, or incarcerated.
By calling yourself a Republiocnvict, you are aiding and abetting criminal behavior by other Republiconvicts.
If you haven’t figured it out by now, go check yourself in somewhere. You are too stupid to be walking the streets. If you think Republiconvicts are good for America, yer an idiot.
What’s the difference between the Boy Scouts, and the Army?
The Boy Scouts have adult leadership!
@77 Of course I know the answers, but why should I tell you, simply because you’re too fucking lazy to do your own research and expect others to wait on you hand and foot?
However, for the benefit of the OTHER readers of this blog (you may stop reading now, George, and if you read this, you’re a fucking leech):
The legislature has authorized the ferry system to raise up to 80% of operating expenses from fares, although this ratio was in the 70% to 75% range as of FY2005.
Like any similar operation, WSF has an operating budget and a separate capital budget.
The operating budget, as of FY2005, was $178.6 million per year, of which $134.9 million was paid by ferry passengers ($13.7 million fares and $2.2 million concessions – e.g. food service and vending machines) and $24.1 million came from federal and state subsidies. Prior to 1999, the state subsidies came from the MVET, but after the legislature enacted the $30 car tabs, this money comes from other dedicated transportation revenues (i.e., gas taxes). There is no General Fund money (i.e., sales, property, and other general taxes) in the WSF budget.
The FY2005 capital budget totaled $243.9 million, of which $103 million went for terminal and vessel “preservation,” and $144 million was allocated to “new construction” of terminals and vessels.
As you can see, farebox revenues and concessions together represented about 32% of total spending as of FY2005.
erratum
($132.7 million fares and $2.2 million concessions – e.g. food service and vending machines)
@76 “Pro-life groups have frequently condemned Sanger for her views …. Sanger is often quoted selectively or out of context ….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger
‘Nuff said. But one could add that Sanger was a product of 19th century thought; that she condemned the Nazis and abortion; and that her movement secretly received its primary financial support from the Rockefeller family. Her organization eventually became Planned Parenthood, which obviously has evolved from the founder’s ideas to more modern thinking.
One wonders why wingnuts in 2007 have to bring up a leader of a social movement from 100 years ago to make their points? Is it because their heads are stuck in the 19th century, or because they have to go back 100 years to find material with which to misrepresent the current pro-choice movement?
Eugenics was one of those quack pseudo-sciences that swept the world in the early 20th century. Interestingly, funding for its propagation was provided by some of the biggest names in the American upper class, including Rockefeller, Carnegie, and Harriman. Prominent proponents include Adolf Hitler and Ann Coulter.
Sanger got on the wrong track about some things, but she saw the light after the Nazis got hold of eugenics and she saw what they did with it.
Yeah, what the Rabbit says. Any retorts from you Limbaughians out there?
34 PI
So, who would you really, really rather have? Hillary or Obama? My point is that Hillary is a weak sister (no pun intended) when compared to Obama. I think you socialist-types would be better off ensuring he gets the nom versus Hillary.
I don’t personally know any “socialist-types,” but I am sure you see them everywhere. Hillary Clinton is not a “weak sister” compared to anyone. She would kick your nuts up into your throat as soon as look at you. But you offer no reasoning for your assertions, and certainly no factual support. Lame.
As for who should “get the nomination” I am only one Democrat out of many, many millions. COllectively we will decide. Primaries are not until next year. You seem to be in kind OFfo a hurry.
“It could be that a yellow cow would beat the Republicans in 2008, but who would really be the better candidate for the whole country? Hillary, Obama, or the yellow cow?”
RR had it right that the cow is better than the entre GOP field. But what we have here is a situation where at least the top 4 Democratic candidates would all be excellent choices. Each has diffent strengths adn weaknesses and bring a different persective to the job. I am listening to the candidates and readng their papers, and I will caucus for one of the candidates next year.
Wow Darcy was really tagged correctly by Nutsroots: “She was a pretty bland candidate – not a great speaker, not a leader for any cause, not some sort of private industry tycoon, and not a public sector rep or expert” I wonder what gene she’s still looking for?
Thanks for that insight outside_guy!
The legislature has authorized the ferry system to raise up to 80% of operating expenses from fares, although this ratio was in the 70% to 75% range as of FY2005.
The operating budget, as of FY2005, was $178.6 million per year, of which $134.9 million was paid by ferry passengers ($13.7 million fares and $2.2 million concessions – e.g. food service and vending machines)
erratum
($132.7 million fares and $2.2 million concessions – e.g. food service and vending machines)
Erratum is right, rabbit. you can’t seem to get much of anything right.
In fact, the money spent for 2005 was 170 million, of which fares were a measly $58 million, FAR LESS THAN 70-75%.
http://www.ntdprogram.com/ntdp.....s/0035.pdf
In fact, farebox revenues have NEVER approached anything like 70%…at least not since the state took over the mosquito fleet. But that’s only part of the problem because operating expenses are only part of the problem. There is a capital budget as well, which in 2005 was ANOTHER $108 million…none of which was paid by farebox revenue.
And in fact, 2005 was a pretty good year for farebox revenue…on that year it actually covered 34% of operating expenses, ALMOST half of what you say it did.
By 2006 the cost had gone up and farebox revenue had DROPPED to only 17% of operating costs….and to about 11% of total costs.
http://www.ntdprogram.com/ntdp.....s/0035.pdf
I assume you feel you have a license to make up whatever numbers fit your preconceptions. That ain’t research, rabbit, that’s fantasy, and when you attempt to pass off your fantasy as reality, that’s dishonest.
Doing some more of that actual research, it appears that rabbit was REALLY telling a whopper here. There has been no time in this millenium that WSF has gotten anything close to 70% of its operating expenses from fares.
Examples:
2000 16% http://www.ntdprogram.com/ntdp.....s/0035.pdf
2001 16%
http://www.ntdprogram.com/ntdp.....s/0035.pdf
2002 16%
http://www.ntdprogram.com/ntdp.....s/0035.pdf
2003 a good year, evidently, 35%
http://www.ntdprogram.com/ntdp.....s/0035.pdf
2004 a great year, 36%
http://www.ntdprogram.com/ntdp.....s/0035.pdf
Of course that doesn’t cover ANYTHING out of the captial expense, which typically was equal to half of the operating expense.
There is little other way to interpret these statistics. Ferry boats are mainly paid for by non-users, and the non-users largely subsidize sprawl with this, at least with the Vashon and Bainbridge runs.
Eugenics was one of those quack pseudo-sciences that swept the world in the early 20th century. Interestingly, funding for its propagation was provided by some of the biggest names in the American upper class, including Rockefeller, Carnegie, and Harriman.
Ah, much like the quackery of Gore today with man-caused global warming.
@72
The term “public service” seems to excuse everything to the left, despite the fact that the libs of Seattle have recently pissed away about $85 million on a fantasy that never did make sense, wishing that somehow a monorail would solve all their transportation woes.
Given the relatively small taxbase that $85 million was extracted from, you’d think they’d have learned that some “public service” proposals maker sense, others don’t. Perhaps the more rabid of the left simply don’t vote for taxes that they themselves actually pay.
How about this proposal, Proud Leftist….
The USAF will soon be replacing hundreds of 1960s and 19702 era KC-135 tankers with new aircraft. We could probably get these at no cost. What say we put a tax on EVERY OTHER form of transportation, and run a small fleet of these between Paine Field, Boeing Field, SeaTac, and Renton, carrying passengers. The passengers pay 10% of the operating costs by way of fares….the REST of us pay the balance…for the privilege of having these air commuters cease using our roads. That would be a “public service” and certainly give us more “transportation choices” and the capital costs would be trivial (the airports and aircraft already being paid for..) and it would certainly carry more people than Sounder…and a hell of a lot faster.
Of course the costs per passenger mile would be high, and the carbon footprint would be real ugly, but hey…it’d be a “public service,” so those things shouldn’t matter……
Hey George Hanshaw:
Calculate this:
amount per mile the Mercer Island I-90 cost (hint: less than 5 miles and more than….)?
Now calculate the cost of gas to power the cars over I-90 in traffic jams over the next 30 years (assuming gas goes up proportionately as it has in the last two year – so in 20 years gas will be at….about $2,400).If only the rich can afford gas – then only the rich will drive. See we have solved the traffic problems!
Now calculate the cost of the I-90 floating bridges over the last 30 years (including the one that sunk.
Calculate the cost of the constant repairs on I-90, 405, 520 and I-5.
add all of these together: compare with the cost of light rail.
Now tell me how light rail is such a bad deal….
or just compare it to the amount wasted in Iraq due to corruption and lack of oversite….
@93
The costs were/are significant, but the costs of those things are borne largely by the users. The cost of light rail, ferries, and Sound Transit, are borne largely by the non-users.
This distorts the market and actually encourages overuse. It’s called the tragedy of the commons. Look it up and see.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.....he_commons
I want to point out that the recent Ferry Boat fiasco can be blamed on Tim Eyeman and all the morons who voted for I-695 which dramatically cut the ferry system funding and caused this completely predictable disaster.
Next time you hear some conservative blow hard complaining about lack of ferry service remember to ask him\her if they voted for I-695. Amazing enough plenty of ferry commuters did just that.
thanks Timmy!
I want to point out that the recent Ferry Boat fiasco can be blamed on Tim Eyeman and all the morons who voted for I-695 which dramatically cut the ferry system funding and caused this completely predictable disaster.
Actually, I-695 was declared unconstitutional and was never put into effect.
http://www.mrsc.org/subjects/f.....i-695.aspx
The restrictions on the MVET were rushed through the democratic controlled legislature by the democratic leadership and signed into law by the Democratic governor Gary Locke.