Whooh. Just got the Friday open thread in before midnight. Have at it.
Can’t Bring Yourself to Type the Word “Ass”?
Eager to share our brilliant political commentary and blunt media criticism, but too genteel to link to horsesass.org? Well, good news, ladies: we also answer to HASeattle.com, because, you know, whatever. You're welcome!
To James Dobson:
Your spokesman, Paul Hetrick, states your priorities are abortion, same-sex marriage and seating activist conservative judges. What specious thinking! 41 million poor Americans are put on the back burner while you push your radical agenda on topics that lie on the periphery of human suffering.
You are a part of the anti Christ who continue their unbiblical, no, heretical ways. Never in the course of human history have so many been deceived, so often, by so few. You’re gladly trading the lives of the poor for your own grandiosity and power. You’re simply fundamentalists (not Christians) – market fundamentalists, obsessed with sexual ethics.
“Dobson speculated” – in a conversation with ethically challenged Rick Santorum – “that Americans “are pretty irritated” at both Democrats and Republicans for that reason.” Your bubble is so out of touch with real Christians. We are irritated because you refuse to recognize God’s command to be with the poor. You and your kind are hypocrites of the grand order.
As a present day Pharisee it is impossible for you to agree with Isaiah: “Woe to you legislators of infamous laws . . . who refuse justice to the unfortunate, who cheat the poor among my people of their rights, who make widows their prey and rob the orphan.”
Roger Williams, of Rhode Island fame, warned Christians against joining forces with civil government. He was absolutely right. You’ve prostituted yourself with politicians. The political non action you’re receiving is your due. You’re a fool of the highest order. A Christian you aren’t.
Willard Landreth
Presbyterian Elder Western NC
Yeah, no kidding.
Righties like righton like to highlight how Dobson isn’t a “big deal”, and he’s not really “one of us.” How quaint. They sure don’t mind the votes the biggoted douche sends their way.
Well, I just want to say that I am taking a day off tomorrow. Go Seahawks! Beat the Washington team with the politically incorrect nickname that demeans our native American citizens.
Stepping down from soapbox.
The Theocrats on the extreme right have always only looked out for themselves. They could care less about poor people suffering, not having medical treatment available, not having heat in the winters nor being able to go to school. They call themselves Christians but if they are the real Christians, what do we call the other 99.98% of the US population?
Dobson, Robertson, Falwell, their supporters and their ilk are all the collective anti-christ.
And none of them deserve the right to breathe air.
There was a time in this world where Christians were persecuted. I miss the good old days!
It has been quiet in the comment threads…. Did we win the wingnuts over?
Comment by Cougar— 1/14/06 @ 4:09 am
“The Theocrats on the extreme right have always only looked out for themselves.”
Maybe it’s just me, but there seems to be a rising sentiment among left wingers that there is, or will be, a theocracy in the United States. Do you guys really believe this?
CF: Not likely as long as there’s left wingers in government like Chris Shays of CT.
“This Republican Party of Lincoln has become a party of theocracy,” Mr. Shays said. “There are going to be repercussions from this vote. There are a number of people who feel that the government is getting involved in their personal lives in a way that scares them.”
Con1st @7,
I think there is a growing realization on the “left” that some form of American theocracy is what a very vocal, energetic and powerful segment of the right is striving towards. Under normal circumstances, I wouldn’t believe it possible. But I can imagine extraordinary circumstances (such as an extreme reaction to a major terrorist attack or economic collapse) in which such thing is possible.
Clearly, the Bush administration has demonstrated that all Americans should be vigilant about protecting our liberties, else they be taken away.
cons first
they don’t fully believe it, but hate religion and rules, so tout this line all the time (oooh…looming theocracy).
unfort our public faces on this (say robertson) do us no favors.
Give ’em hell Harry!
Our nation’s capital has been overrun by organized crime — Tom DeLay-style.
This is how the left supports their Troops in a time of war. I find it disingenuous of those folks who claim they support our troops over seas and in reality the support these type of demonstrators.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01.....038;emc=th
January 14, 2006
Santa Cruz Journal
A Protest, a Spy Program and a Campus in an Uproar
By SARAH KERSHAW
SANTA CRUZ, Calif. – The protest was carefully orchestrated, planned for weeks by Students Against War during Friday evening meetings in a small classroom on the University of California campus here.
So when the military recruiters arrived for the job fair, held in an old dining hall last April 5 – a now fateful day for a scandalized university – the students had their two-way radios in position, their cyclists checking the traffic as hundreds of demonstrators marched up the hilly roads of this campus on the Central Coast and a dozen moles stationed inside the building, reporting by cellphone to the growing crowd outside.
“Racist, sexist, antigay,” the demonstrators recalled shouting. “Hey, recruiters, go away!”
Things got messy. As the building filled, students storming in were blocked from entering. The recruiters left, some finding that the tires of their vehicles had been slashed. The protesters then occupied the recruiters’ table and, in what witnesses described as a minor melee, an intern from the campus career center was injured.
Fast forward: The students had left campus for their winter vacation in mid-December when a report by MSNBC said the April protest had appeared on what the network said was a database from a Pentagon surveillance program. The protest was listed as a “credible threat” – to what is not clear to people around here – and was the only campus action among scores of other antimilitary demonstrations to receive the designation.
Over the winter break, Josh Sonnenfeld, 20, a member of Students Against War, or SAW, put out the alert. “Urgent: Pentagon’s been spying on SAW, and thousands of other groups,” said his e-mail message to the 50 or so students in the group.
Several members spent the rest of their break in a swirl of strategy sessions by telephone and e-mail, and in interviews with the news media. Since classes began on Jan. 5, they have stepped up their effort to figure out whether they are being spied on and if so, why.
This is how the left supports their Troops in a time of war. I find it disingenuous of those folks who claim they support our troops over seas and in reality the support these type of demonstrators.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01.....038;emc=th
January 14, 2006
Santa Cruz Journal
A Protest, a Spy Program and a Campus in an Uproar
By SARAH KERSHAW
SANTA CRUZ, Calif. – The protest was carefully orchestrated, planned for weeks by Students Against War during Friday evening meetings in a small classroom on the University of California campus here.
So when the military recruiters arrived for the job fair, held in an old dining hall last April 5 – a now fateful day for a scandalized university – the students had their two-way radios in position, their cyclists checking the traffic as hundreds of demonstrators marched up the hilly roads of this campus on the Central Coast and a dozen moles stationed inside the building, reporting by cellphone to the growing crowd outside.
“Racist, sexist, antigay,” the demonstrators recalled shouting. “Hey, recruiters, go away!”
Things got messy. As the building filled, students storming in were blocked from entering. The recruiters left, some finding that the tires of their vehicles had been slashed. The protesters then occupied the recruiters’ table and, in what witnesses described as a minor melee, an intern from the campus career center was injured.
Fast forward: The students had left campus for their winter vacation in mid-December when a report by MSNBC said the April protest had appeared on what the network said was a database from a Pentagon surveillance program. The protest was listed as a “credible threat” – to what is not clear to people around here – and was the only campus action among scores of other antimilitary demonstrations to receive the designation.
Over the winter break, Josh Sonnenfeld, 20, a member of Students Against War, or SAW, put out the alert. “Urgent: Pentagon’s been spying on SAW, and thousands of other groups,” said his e-mail message to the 50 or so students in the group.
Several members spent the rest of their break in a swirl of strategy sessions by telephone and e-mail, and in interviews with the news media. Since classes began on Jan. 5, they have stepped up their effort to figure out whether they are being spied on and if so, why.
5.
I agree with none of your three statements.
They are not representative of what I am looking for in a “Left Turn”.
Goldy’s right to free political speech under
attack by big government!
Goldy may be required to get a press exemption if he wants to keep his site open:
Campaign-finance reform now has the blogosphere in its crosshairs. When the Federal Election Commission wrote specific rules in 2002 to implement McCain-Feingold, it voted 4 to 2 to exempt the Web.
Unfortunately: when the chief House architects of campaign-finance reform, joined by McCain and Feingold, sued—claiming that the Internet was one big “loophole” that allowed big money to keep on corrupting—a federal judge agreed, ordering the FEC to clamp down on Web politics. Then-commissioner Bradley Smith and the two other Republicans on the FEC couldn’t persuade their Democratic colleagues to vote to appeal.
Democracy 21 says “We do not believe anyone described as a ‘blogger’ is by definition entitled to the benefit of the press exemption,” they collectively sniffed in a brief to the FEC.
Not to worry, for now: Even if the FEC starts by regulating only a little bit of Web politics, instead of the extensive oversight it had at first planned—and a laxer regime is likelier, thanks to the fierce outburst from political blogs, right and left, when they discovered their freedom of speech under fire—there’s no guarantee that the commission won’t steadily expand its reach later.
Says Foley, a pusher of this program, the chilling of speech is “the necessary price we must pay in order to have an electoral system that guarantees equal opportunity for all.”
Outcome based politics? Can’t have winners and losers now, can we? Next, he will be dictating what kind of candidates can run, like in Iran.
I think I agree with Goldy @9, since something like this could lead to a Theocracy or worse. At the very least it would be f@scist…
Required reading
Everything you need to know ’bout politics in the US is right there…
Oh yeah, and it shows how little has changed…
Conservative Firs@7: It isn’t just the left. I’m around conservatives every day, and many of them have become just as appalled with the ugly, bullying evangelism that is so trendy in today’s churches, and in the GOP. The Republican party is the new false religion. The Christian Coalition is a political party. churches are a business and there’s a power struggle right now between preachers and politicians over who has the most influence. It has been the most conspicuous feature of the political scene over the past few years. Some churches pass out political pamphlets. Notice the constant GOP message that only Republicans are Christian, that only Republicans are moral, that only Republicans are patriotic, and that Iraq war is based on a terrorist attack on a Christian nation. To question and chalalenge any of those messages is equated with treason, and as an attack on Christianity. It is absolutely twisted.
CF
“Maybe it’s just me, but there seems to be a rising sentiment among left wingers that there is, or will be, a theocracy in the United States. Do you guys really believe this?”
Can’t speak for others, but I think that, if things keep going in the direction they currently are under GOP leadership, there will a fascist conservative autocracy ruling this country. Its ties with the religious right have strengthened over the past 4 years, but they appear to me to be a bit tenuous as these radical “Christians” begin to realize that the radical right-wing autocrats don’t always espouse their agenda (they’re being used, more or less, to supply more voters).
One could argue there already is a fascist autocracy ruling this country, but that they have not yet totally consolidated their power. Certainly the current administrations disregard for the law (on all levels, including international law) and the US Constitution is cause for serious concern. I find, however, the complacency of a large number of Americans to be of even greater concern. People have lived quite well under fascist governments in the past, even the most egregious of them — just keep your nose clean, don’t protest official government policy, absorb and believe state propaganda messages, enjoy your tax “cuts”, etc., and nobody gets hurt.
Well, unless you disagree, of course. We all know what can happen then.
Conservativefirst@7: Probably the best way to explain what we are seeing with this intersection of politics and religion, is that it is an Identity politcs game. It’s been going on for awhile, but I think it’s reaching critical mass.
BTW, theocracies aren’t about religion – they’re about power.
@ 7
Interesting. What I’m most worried about is the erosion of the church/state separation. Unlike most liberals, I am actually MORE WORRIED about what that’ll do to CHURCHES and PEOPLE OF FAITH. An American style quasi-theocracy would RUIN our culture of faith. America has an exceedingly strong diversity of religous thought due to the fact that government plays no favorties, has no state religion, and leaves to the citizen certain moral choices. Very Thomas Jefferson of us.
12
“I agree with none of your three statements.
They are not representative of what I am looking for in a “Left Turn”.”
Ditto. These people have every right to say what they want to say. The IRS should have every right to collect taxes from their tax-exempt religious organizations that are involved in influence peddling, and other non-religious endeavors (in the case of Robertson, there’s quite a lot).
18
“I am actually MORE WORRIED about what that’ll do to CHURCHES and PEOPLE OF FAITH. An American style quasi-theocracy would RUIN our culture of faith. ”
I totally agree with you. Faith is a personal matter, not something that need be legislated.
Belltowner@18: Aside from the “Unlike most liberals” I share your concerns, as do most of the liberals I know.
Belltowner@18: Also, It is the politicization of Christianity that I find very distressing. Christianity is an encompassing, inclusive faith. When it is politicized and used to achieve political ends, it becomes exclusive, narrow and divisive.
Things haven’t changed that much:
“Imagine if you will,
A multi-millionaire TV Evangelist,
Saved from Korean Combat duty by his father, a U.S. Senator
Studied law —
But is not qualified to practice it. …
But, hey! What if Pat gets in the White House,
The rights of ‘certain people’ disappear
Mysteriously?
Now, wouldn’t that sort of qualify
As an American Tragedy?
(Especially if they cover it up, sayin’
“Jesus told it to me!”)
I hope we never see that day,
In The Land of The Free —
Or someday will we?
(92?)
Will we?
(96?)”
— Frank Zappa, “Jesus Thinks You’re A Jerk” (1988)
19.
That would be part of fair retrobution for people who wish to impose such an unconstitutional state as a theocracy.
I wonder when people will quit listening to people like Dobson, Phelps and Robertson, they spread their hatred of the American COnstitution that gives them the right to spread their hate-speach.
Oh, and in Chris Vance’s retirement, why doesn’t he go up and help the Conservative Party in Canada, there are Felons voting in the upcoming elections, at the prisons no less! Oh wait, the reason it was shown on CBC News, was that it is perfectly legal up in Canada.
Dr. E @19
The IRS should have every right to collect taxes from their tax-exempt religious organizations that are involved in influence peddling, and other non-religious endeavors (in the case of Robertson, there’s quite a lot).
I happen to not quite agree with this. At issue is just what entails a religious establishment crossing the line from faith teachings to politicking. Once you begin to codify what speech is “bad” it begins a slide into murkier areas. While I agree that Robertson & Co. are not in the business of spreading faith, regulating and reclassifying such speech runs afoul of the 1st Amendment (“shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free excersize thereof”).
Besides, lately Robertson has been his own posterchild of excessive foot-in-mouth disease. We Americans are generally intelligent enough to see him for what he is, and the man of God he is not.
I can think of no greater challenge than to seek after that “still,quiet voice” inside your heart. The beginnings of that search is the beginnings of your search for faith. It is the opposite of some man with a megaphone shouting that his is the only way.
Today we are surrounded by such people.
Thomas Jefferson said the words Jesus actually spoke were “as distinguishable as diamonds in a dunghill,” from the ones the hucksters and charlatains of the early centuries of the Christian Era attributed to him.
I doubt very much that Jesus would endorse heirarchies building palaces to house “His” acolytes, nor 24-hour a day fundraising on a television network bought with “His” followers earlier contributions.
“I am divine. Through me, God acts; through me, speaks. Would you see God, see me; or, see thee, when thou also thinkest as I now think.”
How the truth of Jesus’ words have been corrupted by the marketers of a distorted gospel.
27.
There is no First Amendment right for a religious organization to violate the terms of a law passed by Congress.
@30
If you were to tax one form of religious activity (evangelizing, however broadly defined), you must tax all forms in fairness.
Just for my edification, what law are you referring to?
In other news, the journalistically challenged Michelle Malkin has offered another gem of a blog-turd entry:
“Picture this: You’re a retail store clerk. It’s the busy Christmas season. A half-dozen men of Middle Eastern/South Asian descent walk into the store. They want to buy between 60-150 disposable cell phones–you know, the kind that can’t be traced. The kind that have been used by terrorists as detonators.
What do you do?”
Call in the feds, of course. But then:
“Some civil liberties absolutists will no doubt go bananas over ‘racist’ store clerks who blow the whistle on suspicious behavior. But the rest of us, including the feds who are now following up on the citizen watchdog reports, should be nothing but grateful–and ready to do the same.”
Right. She mentions in a previous paragraph that ABC News reported that “it was discovered that members of the group were linked to suspected terrorist cells stationed within the Metroplex.”
She concludes with the following:
“Meantime, the Midland Reporter-Telegram has more details on the Wal-Mart incident.”
Hmmmm. What details would those be? Well, that the authorites had found that no laws had been broken, and further that none of these links to “suspected terrorist groups” were true.
Great sleuth-work, Michelle. Keep up the good work.
@ 7: A very fair question. I am of the opinion that the current right wing paradigm is pushing many of those on the “left” (however defined)to find such a view both factual and reasonable. This is unfortunate, and may have tragic consequences for our democracy.
Similarly, in the not too distant past, some churches and religious leaders worked publically and politically on moral and political issues gripping the nation, i.e., race and the war in Viet Nam. But these groups were never interwoven so tightly as to be the “shock troops” (too strong a term perhaps) of a narrow moral and partisan based agenda for a specific political party. (In fact, it more akin to an internal political civil war within the Democratic Party. The losers did, in many instances, decamp to the GOP.)
However, that is what we are witnessing today. This is compounded by the ability of the current GOP to effectively enforce party discipline to press their agenda, even in the face of very narrow electoral victories, effectively shutting out the minority party. Even the New Deal coalition had to appease its conservative southern wing. The current crop running the GOP speak with a frightening unison that is eerie. It reminds one of the science fiction nightmare of “the Borg”. I should hope real conservatives (however defined) would find this troubling.
Some, in fact, are beginning to express just these concerns. The alignment of big business conservatism and right wing religious based populism is based on a shakey foundation. The GOP is playing with fire. Let’s hope they don’t get burned too badly.
I have been accused of those on the right that I have no real opinion and just troll here. Here is my answer to them. What I believe and what I think our forefathers had in mind too.
I am classically liberal, or a Jeffersonian liberal, and I’m an individualist, individual and free, because I choose to be; I believe in individual and equal rights, equal laws, equal justice, and equal freedom. I believe Justice has to be blind to race, and all forms of social prejudices, for Justice to be equal. I believe nobody is above or below the law, and everybody should be treated equally under the law, with equal rights, and equal freedom, for everyone individually, so they can become whatever their abilities, aspirations, hopes, and dreams can create for them. I believe in the right of self-determination, over our minds, bodies, and souls, and that every one of us are free sovereign autonomous individuals. I believe the State or Government does not Own us, and therefore has no Right to make our decisions for us, or tell us what we can and cannot do with our own bodies, minds, and souls. F. A. Hayek wrote, ” A society that does not recognize that each individual has values of his own, which he is entitled to follow, can have no respect for the dignity of the individual, and cannot really know Freedom.” I believe that this is what our Country, the United States of America, should try and strive for, and try to achieve. Not the Collectivist Corruption that it has come to represent.
31.
Religious organization obtain a tax exemption under IRC section 501(c)(3) of Federal Regulations, Title 26.
They are subject to losing this exemption if they:
Devote a substantial part of their activities to attempting to influence legislation;
or
Participate in, or intervene in, any political campaign.
Voter Advocate@31: What constitutes “participate in” and “intervene in”? There were a number of churches in our area that passed out GOP propaganda. To whom, and how would one go about reporting this? Copy of the pamphlet and an Affidavit? To whom would it be reported?
thanks.
I don’t know who to tell yet, so I’m posting in an open thread.
—
Washington Citizens for Fair Elections invites you to our upcoming
meeting. The topic will be Vote By Mail: How it works, the
mechanics, the benefits, and the risks. It will be very relevant
given the proposal to shift King County and the entire state to vote-
by-mail. There will be a presentation followed by question and
answer discussion.
If you have questions or issues you’d like addressed in the
presentation, please submit them to fairelections@julieg.net.
Washington Citizens for Fair Elections is a new, multi-partisan group
forming to educate people on issues around elections, and to work for
free, fair, transparent, verifiable elections.
Tuesday Jan 24th, 2006 6:00pm – 9:00pm in Room 209
University Heights Center for the Community Center
5031 University Way NE
Seattle, Washington 98105
http://uhcca.org/
Agenda
6:00 Doors Open (Food and drink is potlatch, if you wish to join in.)
6:30 Meet and Greet (Introductions)
7:00 Group Business
7:15 Vote By Mail Presentation
8:00 Q & A
8:30 Wrap up
VA @37
Thanks. I would not have found it without that:
no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in subsection (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.
Subsection (h) delineates allowances to actual lobbying for certain groups, and churches and their auxiliaries are specifically excluded in this subsection.
In any case, I will go along with removing Robertson’s tax-exempt status if the same occurs to the N(Democrat for President))AACP.
Marilyn @38,
Standard disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. However, I do have an opinion on your question:
By all means you can petition the IRS and they can investigate. I would warn you not to make a baseless charge, though. They are the IRS and have more power than any police agency in government.
My take on it is this: If the church passed out the pamphlets at the urging or behest and under the auspices of the clergy, then it can be assumed to have crossed the line. If it was simply members of the congregation doing this on their own, it becomes a bit tougher to discern.
4
“The Theocrats on the extreme right have always only looked out for themselves. They could care less about poor people suffering, not having medical treatment available, not having heat in the winters nor being able to go to school. They call themselves Christians but if they are the real Christians, what do we call the other 99.98% of the US population?”
Oh, to be fair, that’s not altogether true. They do donate money to charitable works. However, even in charity — as in all things — you have to accept the charity on their terms, one of which is letting them cram their religion down your throat. An example is a shelter where you have to listen to a preacher deliver a sermon in order to get a hot meal.
7
“Maybe it’s just me, but there seems to be a rising sentiment among left wingers that there is, or will be, a theocracy in the United States. Do you guys really believe this?”
Yes. When we hear their stated goals, and look at their agenda of putting prayer in public schools, substituting religious ideology for evolution in the science curricula, putting religious icons in public buildings and spaces, and the intolerance (and sometimes outright hatred) they express of people of different faiths and believes — plus the influence these people have in the Republican Party — it’s clear that the rightwing and GOP as a whole are embracing a theocratic agenda for our country. Not only that, but it is not an agenda promoting religion in general, but a specific religion — fundamentalist Christianity — to the exclusion of other religions, beliefs, and non-belief. If they can get this installed in our laws, legal persecution of noncompliers won’t be far behind. This is exactly what the Constitution was written to prevent.
As far as whether it’ll actually happen, no, I think Bushism and the movement to the right have crested, and the Republican Party and its candidates will pay for their incompetence and corruption with devastating electoral defeats in the near future. Like the few Confederates who made it over the stone wall at Gettysburg, this is as far as you guys will ever get.
10
“hate religion and rules”
righton, as usual, is totally full of shit. Most liberals are religious and many are churchgoers, but why waste time arguing with a troll who’s repeatedly proven he’s as ignorant as a cactus and as dumb as a box of rocks?
Make no mistake, righton, people like Dobson, Robertson, and Falwell are not aberrations but perfectly express the bigotry, hatreds, ignorance, and mean-spirited small-minded intolerance of the sheeple who make up the Religious Right. That’s exactly why their TV programs and books are so popular: They are clones of their followers, and vice versa.
Hey Rabbit – Did you see the story in the PI today about child support laws changing based on the findings of a 22 member commission. Do you know what that’s about? Can men expect payments to go down 50% or so?
Reply to 44
I don’t practice family law, so I don’t follow child support issues regularly, but from reading the article, it appears an advisory committee has recommended some changes. It’s not clear exactly what those changes are, beyond updating the support schedule more frequently.
The existing support schedule will stay in place unless the legislature adopts the recommendations, but I think it’s likely the legislature will do so. The original child support schedule was designed by a commission, which the legislature adopted it with only minor changes. Since then, the legislature has consistently been willing to delegate this task to the commissions that have convened from time to time.
The child support table itself is based on economic data. The state conducts field surveys to find out how much parents actually spend on their children. The two major variables are household income and family size. The philosophy behind the child support law is that parents can do whatever they want in terms of staying together or separating, but the children will not be penalized economically if they separate. Consequently, the support schedule requires the parents to spend just as much of their money on the kids after they separate as they did when the family was intact.
It is important to understand that the philosophy behind the support schedule, and the support table itself, diverge from the criminal and civil laws requiring parents to support their children. Your legal obligation as a parent is to provide the necessities of life consisting of shelter, food, clothing, medical care, and education. There’s no law that says you have to buy them toys or take them to movies. Buuuuut … most families at income levels above subsistence do spend money on luxuries for the children — and because the economic survey data counts that spending, the support schedule charges parents for things the underlying support laws don’t require! In other words, if the average family in your income bracket takes their kids to Disneyland, then the support schedule says you owe your kids a trip to Disneyland — even if you can’t pay your own rent!
I have always disagreed with this aspect of the support schedule. It’s patently unrealistic to expect separated parents to maintain their kids in a luxury lifestyle they enjoyed before the separation. You now have the costs of maintaining two households instead of one. You can’t expect parents to not pay rent or not buy food so their kids can have a Disneyland trip.
If the commission’s report doesn’t address this problem, then I don’t see that parents required to pay support will gain much. In that event, it sounds like they would mostly be updating the economic data and support table. That probably would translate into minor changes in the support amounts at various income levels and family sizes. Because there is inflation in the economy and nominal incomes tend to rise over time, many parents will find themselves in a higher income bracket, and therefore paying a higher dollar amount of support. However, if these recommendations give greater recognition to support obligations for other children, they will provide welcome relief to parents who are supporting children from more than one relationship. Judges are supposed to consider that now, but the current law gives them latitude to disregard the other children or give the parent only token credit for paying another support obligation.
44
I posted a reply but it’s in the filter. Be patient, it’ll pop out in a little while.
Not only did Ted Kennedy get tossed out of school for having someone take his exam but he lost his summer job as a swim instrutor when his student a female asked him if he removed his finger would she really sink.
Expect them to harvest your organs if you pull a gun on a cop
No exceptions…
So, how ’bout them Seahawks? Hosting the NFC Championship game next weekend. I hope Alexander is able to play after his concussion today.
So, who do you hope for the second part of the equation, Bears or Panthers?
MTR,
“His organs are in the process of being harvested,” Nation told reporters outside a hospital.
Is it just me, or does the term “harvest” in this case sound macabre?
Huh? Where does it say that consent was not given for “harvesting” the organs?
How about those Seahawks. Congratulates to all for a playoff game in the win column.
Speaking of harvesting organs, the reason you have to declare on your organ donor card whether you’re a Democrat or a Republican is so they know whether to use your brain or throw it away. If your card says (R), your brain is only good for pig feed.
Incidence of mad pig disease reported.
Rabbit – Can you repost your reply in 45? To get it through the filter, include the words nazi, fascist and fuck.
And call me a chilling assfuckinghole too.
It’ll go through just fine then…
Rabbit – Thank you for your thoughtful reply @ 45. Child support amounts as they currently exist are grossly unfair and out of line. The amounts should focus on the difference between what the custodial parent has to provide versus the non custodial parent. For example, the non custodial parent needs to provide a room for the children as does the custodial parent. The fact that the room at the non custodial parents house is unoccupied much of the time has no effect; it still has to be paid for.
I think the support tables FAR overstate these differences. I can say from firsthand experience being on both sides of the fence that the payment amounts from non custodial to custodial bear little relationship to actual expenses. Instead, it is a system designed mostly to crucify men. Girlz, I know you disagree with that, but that’s the way it is.
Family law in Washington needs radical reform. If I was boss here’s what I would do:
1) A mother should have a child bearing “permit” from the father that says “Yes, I want to have a child and I agree to pay all costs.” If the woman doesn’t have the permit, she’s on her own. As it works today, the woman makes ALL the choices and men are forced to pay for whatever she decides.
2) In all family court jurisdictions, there must be a 50/50 split between fathers and mothers in all contested custody cases. Once the girlz realize that they can’t just cash in with assurance of getting 18 years of tax free cash, we’ll see the divorce rate plummet. And that’s a good thing.
3) The custodial parent must provide a line item report of where the money went. No more clothes and jewelry and handbags and shoes for the mother. Show where it went and prove it went to the kids. Otherwise refund the excess to the father with interest.
on another front. “The law was enacted Thursday when the Democratic-controlled legislature overrode Republican Gov. Robert Ehrlich’s veto of a bill it passed last April. The law, the first of its kind in the nation, requires companies with more than 10,000 employees in Maryland to spend at least 8 percent of payroll on health insurance or pay the difference into the state Medicaid fund to help pay for health care for low-income Marylanders.” from
http://www.sfgate.com
It will be very interesting to see how WalMart can spin this one. They have continually shrugged off their responsibilities ot their employees health care and well being. Congratulations to the Maryland Senate for overturning the Governor’s veto!
MTR @ 55 This is one of the few times I do agree with many of your points. It reminds me of when I lived in Puerto Rico back in the late 80’s. One of the neighborhood ‘crack heads’ had given birth to 23 children. Her reason? With each child, in those days, she received an additional $50 check per month from subsidy programs. The money never went to the kids. They were on the street fending for themselves at an early age. But that $1000+ of cash each month sure kept their mother happy (for about 10 days and then it ran out)
Cougar@57: And where were the fathers of these children? Or, were these all virgin births?
Marilyn – Do you object to a 50/50 split in contested cases? Do you object to having accountability in where the money goes. If so, please explain why.
Also, the mother makes ALL the choices. Whether to put out. Whether to get knocked up. Whether to keep it. Father has ZERO control. If the girlz want all the choices, they should also get all the responsibility right? Or are you one who “Can’t Understand Normal Thinking”? Hmmmm?
Marilyn, the ‘fathers’ were spread throughout the area, on the birth certificates she basically placed a ‘john doe’. And in reality, she probably had no idea who fathered any of them. To put it nicely, she was very ‘loose’.. No pun intended
Cougar – I used to have a neighbor. We called her “pantydropper”. She was 20 yo and had 4 kids with 4 fathers. All the kids were “accidents”. Helluva accident prone person I guess. Taxpayers picked up the bill for her indiscriminant breeding.
and on antoher topic from the Houston Chronicle
“Do you now have a higher or lower opinion of Tom DeLay than you did last year?
Higher (7) 3%
Lower (194) 91%
Don’t Know/Refused (13) 6%”
http://www.chron.com/disp/stor.....87479.html
enlightening survey on how the 22nd District thinks of dear Mr. Delay
Only in America: Boomershoot.
Rifles and high explosives. I kid you not.
Mark the Redneck at various: Males do have a choice; they can choose not to have indiscriminate sex. They can choose not to “put out”. Or is that beyond you? I’m not a believer in indiscriminate sex. I have no objection to 50/50 parenting, in fact, I think that is the way it should be. However, that is the way it should be whether or not someone has made a careless sexual decision. Males have access to birth control, and they have a choice. They can choose not to have sex, They can choose who they have sex with. Get off the victim mentality Mark. You made your choices.
Mark the Redneck at avarious: How often a week do you “put out”?
You know, if you were a woman, I suspect you’d be turning tricks in a truck stop parking lot.
What men should do is save sperm cryogenically for ms. right and then have a vasectomy and if they lose their sperm through an accident, so what? There’s enough children in the world as it is. Many are saying the world is grossly overpopulated. So adopt and make the world a better place if you have the means and temperament to do so. Or work with kids or be a big brother.
This whining by MTR is so victim-like.
54
Looks like it has come out of the filter, but what the hell, Mark the Redneck is a fucking fascist chilling nazi assfuckinghole.
I’m not so sure about the fucking part. As I recall, he’s unattached.
55
I wouldn’t say they’re grossly unfair. They’re only incrementally unfair. It costs a lot to raise kids. Just ask any single mother.
55 (continued)
“I can say from firsthand experience being on both sides of the fence that the payment amounts from non custodial to custodial bear little relationship to actual expenses.”
Actually, they bear NO relationship to expenses, because Washington adopted an income-based model instead of a cost-based model. The children’s expenses are irrelevant. The parent’s income is the determinant.
55 (continued)
“1) A mother should have a child bearing “permit” from the father that says “Yes, I want to have a child and I agree to pay all costs.” If the woman doesn’t have the permit, she’s on her own. As it works today, the woman makes ALL the choices and men are forced to pay for whatever she decides.”
Hell, Mark, why go only half way back to the Stone Age? If an unmarried woman gets pregnant, let’s stone her to death, and if the kids misbehave, the father can kill them!
55 (continued)
“In all family court jurisdictions, there must be a 50/50 split between fathers and mothers in all contested custody cases.”
I’ve met some mothers who would really support this, especially if all they have to do to get custody is stumble across the hall from drug court to family court.
55 (continued)
“The custodial parent must provide a line item report of where the money went.”
Washington’s legislature actually passed this, but Governor Locke vetoed it.
59
“Father has ZERO control.”
Father has 100% control. All he has to do is keep his pants zipped shut. Me, I can’t help it, God designed me as a fucking machine and my mission is to populate the entire planet with cute fluffy little bunnies, but just because I fuck like a rabbit doesn’t mean you have to!
61
I remember one on welfare who had 3 kids (3 different fathers) by age 18.
Three future gang leaders, probably.
66
“This whining by MTR is so victim-like.”
Why are you surprised? All Republicans play the victim game.
They’re victims of high taxes.
They’re victims of vote-stealing Democrats.
They’re victims of evil liberals.
They’re victims of bad intelligence.
They’re victims of unfair laws.
And, when they get to the Pearly Gates, they’re all gonna be victims of an angry God for all the shit they’ve pulled in this world!
50-50 custody is a crock. The legal system should, and does, base decisions on what’s best for the children. If the parents aren’t living together, you can’t have two people raising the kids. That doesn’t work any better than two people trying to steer a car. Bouncing back and forth between two different homes every three days or every week or monthly is very disruptive to the kids’ lives and emotional well being. They need stability and a sense of security. Sorry, MTR, but when the family breaks up one parent gets the child-rearing chores and the other gets the support order, that’s the way it has to be. The best social workers in America have spent decades trying to invent a split-custody system that works and can’t come up with one.
78
Wabbit– You forgot the republicans are victims of beating democrats in elections. Hey we have learned to live with it. It is just a fact of life.
RUFUS “you forgot the republicans are victims of beating democrats in elections.”
You are either perpetually drunk, or do not live in Washington state.
Donnageddon, you have to forgive RUFUS for his diatribes. Everyone knows that he has been ‘under the influence’ of Theocrats and Neocons for the past 10 years. He was one of the original “Gingrich Groupies’ and cannot come to the reality that his ‘daddy’ is gone, and almost forgotten. He tries to be the ‘king’ of one liners but usually he gets mixed up and doesn’t understand what he was trying to say. In his ‘stupor’ it is easier to ‘say it’ than go back and read his own post.
The Republi-cons and the ‘immoral right’ is so funny. They complain about abortion and then they turn around and complain about the use and sale of condoms. “A Connecticut abortion rights group has angered some conservative Christian groups by selling condom key chains that include an image of Michelangelo’s Sistine Chapel with God handing Adam a condom.”
from http://news.yahoo.com
The old ‘damn if you do, damn if you don’t’ theory really applies to the Republi-CONS doesn’t it?
and from Minnesota
http://www.jonathonforgovernor.us/Home_page.html
Jonathon ‘the impaler’ Sharkey will run for governor. Who knows in a state that elected Jesse ‘the body’ Ventura he just might have a chance! Does not list his affilitation but must be a RepubliCON because many of them are sure to understand ‘impaling’ once they start their prison terms.
“These people gave me a very wise and strong political foundation upon
which I have never forgotten. Though I am no longer a registered
Republican, a lot of my political values are.” A little info into the next Minnesota Governor. LMAO@Neocons everywhere
Where are the Democrat leaders in Olympia?
http://www.ptleader.com/main.a.....leID=14068
I have not spent much time or effort thus far investigating or thinking about custody and support issues. However, it is probably instructive to consider why the system was put into place. It USED to be that biological fathers had little to no legal obligation to their offsring, particulalry outside of marriage. In “Pantydropper’s” case, for example, she’s stuck raising four kids and four guys are elsewhere doing God knows what. Do they have an obligation to the children they fathered? Damn right they do. Unless they were f-ucking with a gun to their heads.
In the case of a dissolved marriage, the father does contnue to have a financial obligation. Following divorce, the woman’s standard of living plummets by 27 percent, on average, while that of the man’s improves by 10 percent. Individual circumstances vary, but women saddled with child raising post-divorce deserve assistance from the other biological parent.
We can argue with the implementation, but I don’t think we’re questioning the basic fact of a legal requirement of suppport for one’s biological children. Are we?
Wabbit 79 – I think you misunderstand what I said. I agree with you that shared custody is stupid. What I meant was that in all family court jurisdictions that fathers should get custody in 50% of cases and mothers should get custody in 50% of cases. As it is now, mothers get custody in the vast majority of cases. Courts don’t GAF about “best interests of child”…. they’re mostly interested in providing women with huge amounts of tax free income.
80
“Wabbit– You forgot the republicans are victims of beating democrats in elections. Hey we have learned to live with it. It is just a fact of life.”
That’s good ‘cuz you’re gonna live with it.
Patty Murray (D) 1,549,708 (54.98%)
George R. Nethercutt, Jr. (R ) 1,204,584 (42.7%)
Ron Sims (D) 293,777 (55.6%)
David Irons (R ) 209,021 (39.57%)
Write-In Candidate (D) 30,252 (95.3%)
Byron Low Tax Looper (R ) 1,531 (4.7%)
Hey Doofus, how you like this poll for the Vermont 2006 U.S. Senate race?
Bernie Sanders (Socialist) 70%
Richard Tarrant (Rethuglican) 25%
Looks like the Vermonters are gonna elect a pinko to the World’s Greatest Deliberative Body — there’s a sure vote for impeachment!
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
I’m kinda lookin forward to their raising your taxes to pay for Bunny’s Medicare!
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
Let’s see how the Permanent Majority is doing in Texas’ 22nd Congressional District:
“When registered voters were asked for their opinion of DeLay, 52 percent said it was unfavorable, while just 37 percent said they viewed him favorably. In 2004, despite negative headlines from a string of ethics complaints, DeLay won 55 percent of the vote in the 22nd District, which includes parts of four suburban counties south of Houston. President Bush also easily carried all four counties.
“But when registered voters in the new poll were asked whether they were likely to choose DeLay or an unnamed Democrat in the 2006 midterm election, 49 percent said they would pick the Democrat, while just 36 percent said they would likely support DeLay, who has represented the district since 1984.”
http://www.freerepublic.com/fo.....4581/posts
Do ya suppose that when voters figure out the Permanent Majority has been looting like the National Guard left town, they might become a Permanent Minority? HAR DE HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
86
I have news for you, Mac. If Mr. Barcott of Olympia is too poor to afford property taxes, he can get an elderly limited income exemption from a major part of those taxes. I suspect he’s doing quite well, in fact. Find me a single documented case of an elderly person in this state being forced out of their home by taxes. That’s bullshit.
If Kerry was elected President you can be sure this would have never happened.
“UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) – U.S. Ambassador John Bolton has complained to U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan about an annual U.N. event where a map of pre-1948 Palestine, an area that now comprises the state of Israel, is displayed.
“It was entirely inappropriate for this map to be used. It can be misconstrued to suggest that the United Nations tacitly supports the abolition of the state of Israel,” Bolton said.
“Given that we now have a world leader pursuing nuclear weapons who is calling for the state of Israel to be ‘wiped off the map,’ the issue has even greater salience,” he said in a January 3 letter, a copy of which was obtained by Reuters on Friday. The letter was first reported in the New York Sun. …
Bolton’s letter complained about the symbolism of Annan attending the latest International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People, held last November 29, along with General Assembly President Jan Eliasson and Russian Ambassador Andrei Denisov, the Security Council president for November.
He questioned whether the United Nations could promote the event when U.S. law prohibits funding such events. Washington’s dues cover about a quarter of the regular U.N. budget.
Annan’s office was preparing a response to the letter, U.N. chief spokesman Stephane Dujarric said. He said the secretary-general was grateful that Bolton and others had brought the matter to his attention and had raised the matter of the map with the General Assembly’s Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People, which stages the annual event. It was not Annan but the committee that decided in 1981 to display the pre-1948 map at the annual event, he said.
“This gives a very unfortunate impression that the United Nations favors replacing Israel by a single Palestinian state, which is not the case,” he said, stressing that Annan regularly describes Israel as a full U.N. member and strongly disapproved of the Iranian president’s comments.”
jaybo – paranoid drivel by Bolton – the neocon’s servant in the U.N.
78
In all Sunday School moments, coming from the lower middle class, hard working, moral folks — I NEVER though I would live in the middle of Classic Biblical GREED.
Folks who have many millions, more money than they can spend, living in the lap of regal luxe, want more and more at any cost.
The Walton Billionairs, won’t pay an extra dime – will cut into more billions.
Social Justice Jesus is weeping. And I agree with Rodger, Father God is not going to be pleased
Truly, if the Neo=convicts have their way, we won’t even be allowed into the fields for the ‘gleanings’. Monsanto will see to that with their new GMO ‘No gleanings-left’ seed.
Santorum has probably introduced a bill to retire the ‘Widow’s Mite’ feom our currency as well.
Kennedy and Biden questioning potential Supreme Court judges is like the wacko who drown her six kids in the bath tub giving child care tips!!
The good news is Santorum is 20 points behind in the latest poll.
Imagine that, “DDDoc Hastings” (Do nothing, Dickless Doc” and his Ethics Committee have no plans to investigate any of the ‘problems’ going on and related to Abramoff, ethics and bribery.
http://www.palmbeachpost.com
on a better topic, wouldn’t it be ‘poetic justice’ if the Seahawks win the weekend and end up playing the Broncos in the Superbowl? I remember so many years that the Broncos had our number. Damn, I hated Elway.
RR, Happy MLK Jr. Day!! I plan to celebrate by robbing a couple liquor stores and burning down the local high school. And you??