When I started obsessively plugging a high-earners income tax during the last session, I was publicly and privately informed that I was absolutely nuts. Washington state voters would never approve an income tax in any form, I was told, and so it was futile, if not downright counterproductive, to even attempt to start the conversation. One state lawmaker even went so far as to privately congratulate me for cementing my reputation as a “political crackpot.”
Well… if I’m a crackpot, it looks like I’m not the only one, for in an unsigned editorial today in The Olympian, our state capital’s paper of record takes up the challenge, warning that “Hesitance to rethink taxes will bite lawmakers.”
The need for tax reform is long overdue.
That effort has to come from Gov. Chris Gregoire and legislative leaders. They simply must engage the public in a constructive conversation about this state’s overreliance on property and sales taxes and how the missing third leg of the stool — an income tax — is necessary to level out the revenue peaks and valleys that this state constantly experiences.
Of course, one way to effectively start this conversation would be to use the coming special session to put a high-earners income tax on the November ballot. Some might call that a crackpot idea. I prefer to think of it as leadership.
Yes. You can argue that a tax singling out rich people who don’t need the pittance that a state tax would represent is somehow ‘unfair’, but as Willie Sutton once said when asked why he robbed banks: “… that’s where the money is.”
@1 The people getting robbed are the lower income households who pay 5 1/2 times as much of their income to state and local taxes as those at the top of the income pyramid. Income tax opponents are at a huge disadvantage because perpetuating this grossly unfair distribution of tax burdens is what they have to defend, and it’s indefensible on any grounds. The only thing preventing a tidal wave of public support for tax reform is the false belief that tax reform means tax increase. For most Washingtonians, tax reform will bring tax relief, not tax increase, and when people figure that out, tax reform will be a done deal.
Why not just have a wealth tax? Every year, each person determines his/her net worth and sends Olympia a fixed percentage of that value.
If you’re gonna be involved in wealth re-distribution, why not be serious about it?
@3 Nice try, asswipe. You can’t defend the status quo — which is wealth redistribution with a vengeance, from the poor to the rich — so you try to shoot down tax reform by slapping an emotionally-charged and misleading label on it. Every time a rightwing liar like you tries this, we’re going to remind the public of exactly what you’re shilling for: A tax system that charges the poor 550% more than the rich. And we’re also going to remind them what you’re opposed to: A tax system that treats everyone fairly. THE POOR PAY 5 1/2 TIMES AS MUCH AS THE RICH. That’s the product you’re selling, and we’re not gonna let anyone forget it.
From now on, I’m gonna refer to tax reform opponents as 550-PERCENTERS, because they believe the poor should pay 550% more taxes than the rich.
That tried and true, mostly rural conservative state of Indiana has a 3% income tax, more reasonable property taxes and sales tax that is about the same as Washington State.
They haven’t melted under the burden. All those “rustic” Hoosiers also actually value a college education and support their K-12 schools too.
Washington roads are much better than the roads in Indiana. We have better parks. We have a patronage free Department of Licensing. There are fewer health violations in our restaurants…
Oh wait!!!! I’m pointing out state workers (GASP) that do a lot for less then they do in Hoosierland.
Or we could call them 18-percenters, because they believe the rich should pay only 18% as much as the poor.
Flat percentage no loopholes. No sales tax. No deductions for giving. Force businesses to be businesses and divorce business income from personal. If you own a company you pay yourself. No dividend S-corp bullshit. Living stipends that are hard to track, etc. Change the B&O tax to be on profits not gross. Etc. Leave property tax in place as a way for communities (COMMUNITIES) to tax themselves for additional amenities.
Once folks figure out they will always pay in the end, they may be more willing to have a state income tax to spread the burden:
Underfunded schools = unskilled workforce; higher costs to attract and keep skilled workers.
Underfunded infrastructure = harder and more expensive to get around; higher transportation costs for goods. Companies less willing to stay here when they grow.
Finally, the richer you are the less stuff you buy as a percentage of income, and more is spent out of state.
Goldy,
What about having a “marked-to-market” wealth tax like I described @3? Seems like it would be more efficient than having an income tax and really, really re-distribute wealth.
4 & 5 – I really don’t give a flying fuck what you think. You’re a pathetic failed attorney who should be euthanized. BTW, I’m not a conservative or a liberal. Figure it out, ASSWIPE!!!
Hey, we don’t need no stinkin’ income tax.
FREE NORMAN HSU! This KLOWN can raise millions outta thin air!
Former Democratic Fundraiser to Plead Guilty in New York City
The 58-year-old Norman Hsu was indicted in 2007 on charges of cheating investors of at least $20 million in what prosecutors say was a huge Ponzi scheme
AP
Thursday, May 07, 2009
@8,
That would actually require change at the national level. S-corps, LLCs, LPs – they are part of the national tax code. Anything done to eliminate them here in WA would certainly not stand up to legal challenge, even in the Ninth Circuit, much less the SCOTUS.
Once again, Goldy fails to remind us that his position is the Income Tax will NOT be Tax Revenue Neutral…but represent a massive tax revenue increase.
Now a BS rag like the Olympian weighs in and also fails to state whether they are proposing a Tax Revenue Neutral Income Tax….or a massive tax increase Income Tax.
In the end you can tap-dance around the Tax Revenue Impact…but voters will have to know the truth BEFORE it comes on the ballot.
People are confused right now.
The devil is in the detail however.
Oh and if we keep the Sales Tax, we must support that Bureaucracy AND add another Bureaucracy THAT PRODUCES NOTHING to administer the Income Tax.
Great idea…a job creator.
Add more layers of Bureaucracy in a recession.
Let’s have an honest discussion before we waste too much time or money…like on the Alaskan Way Viaduct.
Right up front……….
Will this Income Tax be set at a level to produce Tax Revenue at the same level of revenue currently beig generated by the tax it replaces?
YES or NO??
@12:
Then everything else but that. Nobody wants to start something. The first thing when you talk tax reform is, “oh that can’t be done.” It’s usually somebody that is worried about paying more.
I’m absolutely worried about paying more but our system, as it stands, is failed, nationally and locally.
Incorrect @10,
Funny you should suggest that. In one of their many editorials pushing for repeal of WA’s estate tax, the Seattle Times compared our state’s tax structure unfavorably to that of Sweden, pointing out that even those socialist Swedes had recently repealed their own estate tax.
What the Times didn’t tell readers was that the Sweden replaced its estate tax with a 1.5% annual wealth tax on tangible and intangible assets over $200,000.
As I wrote at the time, I’d take that exchange in a heartbeat.
With the current crop of chickens**t “Democrats” in charge, we don’t have a prayer of getting anything like this through the Legislature. They’ve become thoroughly under the spell of Tim Eyman; call them shadow Republicans, at least that’s how they behave, on tax and budget matters.
Leadership won’t come from these “leaders.” Time to convene an initiative-drafting convention — someone…?
Hey look, ditch you’re car and you can go from a renter to a home owner. Not that that’s new news for anything.
It’s always more convincing when someone that endorses an “income tax” is actually generating an income.
Leadership by example is the best kind of leadership, Goldy. You should try it.
What we need is to cut state spending by 20%, that will balance the budget!
re 3: Because, “When the taxman comes, the house looks like a rummage sale.” J. Foggerty
I’m sure that you can extrapolate from there.
@20 Oswald – implying the wealthy hide assets from Uncle Sam? Implying they are unpatriotic scum for doing so? What are you implying and what should be the consequences for them?
@19
And how do you propose to do that?
Just cut funding to state employees…
Get rid of the sales tax completely and I’ll gladly support the income tax.
What we need is to cut state spending by 20%, that will balance the budget!
So 20% less on K-12 Education, Higher Education, Social & Health Services, Corrections, Bond Retirement & Interest, Governmental Operations, and Transportation.
Oh. duh. I get it, you were being sarcastic, nobody would seriously propose that.
Can you imagine what would happen if you told the bond holders that they would get only 80% of their debt payments? A whole lot of capitalists would be very upset, I expect.
Hey Washington State wingnuts. Taxes go to government then the government takes that money and spends it on things that people have voted for through assemblies and legislatures. Including lots of things that make the economy grow, like roads, trains, r and d, education, health.
So, our income taxes are helping produce our incomes, which are higher than yours!
Remember: big public sector leads to even bigger private sector. That’s how we got out of the depression — WW 2 right?? Leading to a long period of growth in the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s.
re 21: Are you asking a question or do you already have your mind made up? If your mind is made up, don’t waste my time with your coyness.
I have a question for you: If the offshore tax havens that corporations and individuals use cause the military to not have the funds to properly equip the soldiers in Iraq, should the tax cheaters be held personally responsible for the deaths of soldiers caused by their refusing to pay their taxes?
I understand that you are big on people taking personal responsibility.
@23
And then what happens?
@8 I more or less agree, although the Gates Commission proposal would eliminate both the state sales tax and the B&O tax, and leave local sales taxes intact. I think I like that better than supporting local government entirely with property taxes.
@10 “I’m not a conservative or a liberal”
I didn’t say you were. I said you’re an asswipe. You can all yourself whatever you want, but the flip side of that coin is that I can call you whatever I want, too.
@12 That’s not true. The state doesn’t have to recognize S-corporations for purposes of a state income tax. Nothing requires state income tax rules to follow federal tax law.
@13 “Once again, Goldy fails to remind us that his position is the Income Tax will NOT be Tax Revenue Neutral…but represent a massive tax revenue increase.”
These are 2 different issues, although they’re somewhat interconnected. Certainly there are people like Goldy who believe Washington is disinvesting in public services, and see the income tax as a means to halt this trend. But even from a revenue-neutral standpoint, only a complete jerk could oppose reforming a system that taxes low-income households 5 1/2 times as much as high-income households.
10, 15 — I’m not in favor of a wealth tax. If we had a state income tax I would support eliminating the state estate tax and treating inheritances like other taxable income.
@17 I can’t get to the grocery store or veterinarian on public transit.
Rog–
What is unfair is folks who pay ZERO and utilize Public Services.
And of course the Tax Revenue impact of an Income Tax is relevant to the discussion.
Anything above the current sales tax revenue it replaces is a TAX INCREASE…no matter how you package it.
@18 So you’re defending the current system of taxing poor people 5 1/2 times as much as rich people? If not, what’s your proposal for tax reform?
@19 “What we need is to cut state spending by 20%, that will balance the budget!”
We just did, numbnuts. You should be happy — that’s what you and your ilk wanted, wasn’t it? Well, you got your wish, so why are you still bitching?
@23 Fine, if you’ll agree to take a pay cut of equal amount, and businesses will agree to cut prices by equal amount.
@35 “Rog – What is unfair is folks who pay ZERO and utilize Public Services.”
In other words, your idea of “unfair” is that our public schools are full of kids who don’t have any income and don’t pay taxes, but you discern no unfairness in a system that taxes poor people 17% of their income and taxes rich people 3% of their income. That says all anyone needs to know about your values and character.
“And of course the Tax Revenue impact of an Income Tax is relevant to the discussion.
Anything above the current sales tax revenue it replaces is a TAX INCREASE…no matter how you package it.”
Of course it is, but you’re talking about 2 different issues and 2 separate decisions. A state income tax can be designed to be revenue-neutral. Whether we should replace the sales tax and B & O tax with an income tax is one discussion. If so, whether it should be a revenue-neutral tax is another and separate discussion.
@34
There’s no One Big Solution for everyone. It’s more ammo to say that developing in a bike/ped friendly manner is the way to go.
Why would anyone trust the future to a cynic? A cynic is someone who has already given up on life.
@41
Good point.
@ 33
Unless of course, you go on to your next sentence…
Last I checked, inheritances were passed on by someone that actually paid taxes on that income once. Passing on that earned wealth to a spouse, sibling, offspring, etc. is none of yours or the governments damn business.
In that case, you are in favor of double taxation , which means, contrary to your first sentence, you’re in favor of a “wealth tax”.
Don’t forget, the left wing-nuts have the kennedy family to point out as making an obscene amount money off moonshining (and obviously not paying taxes on illegal activity) and then hiding it in trusts and off-shore accounts.
So they assume that everyone does what their party leaders do.
@ 44 ~ Right Marvin, yet held to such high esteem by the blithering dolts on the left. They even tried to pass that forced servitude law entitled the “Edward M Kennedy serve America act”.
In the vacuous liberal mind, driving some poor lass into the chappaquidick river while driving drunk; then swimming to shore not attempting to help your date trapped in the car and drowning; then going home to “sleep it off” instead of, oh, calling the police or emergency personnel to the seen of a accident you caused.
Real class act that Ted Kennedy is, eh? A real American hero (along with John edwards, Robert Byrd and Bill Clinton)
Tax assets not wages. Jerk wads.
A question: will an income tax actually even out peaks and valleys in state revenue? It has not done so in California, or in Oregon, or in a lot of other states. Maybe it depends on how progressive it is: the more progressive, the more peaks and valleys it will have because higher income earners will pay a higher percentage of the total, and their income varies a lot with the stock market and other investment sales. let’s be real about the peaks and valleys, not just assume them away with wishful thinking.
A big Yawn Goldy, the chance that the raise ever fee and tax they can get their hands on legislature, no one other than a few of you who pay zero to none taxes in this state, would vote to give them another tax to hike to 10+%.
So good luck, but it will never happen
And by the way any trash the “Olympian” publishes is gee whiz that the Tax Capitol News. They have to keep their paper alive to let the idiots in Olympia actually beleive that is the will of the people.
I know a few folks advocating an Income tax, every one of them is sucking on a life time Government pension and career.
Sorry it Ain’t never gonna happen unless you take away property taxes, and sales taxes.
Not a chance in Hell