Considering the reality of what we are facing in these economic times, why would we want to write a check to replace the Alaskan Way Viaduct with the most expensive, most risky, least studied and slowest-to-construct option?
That’s from Rep. Geoff Simpson’s recent opinion piece in the Seattle Times. It’s about the tunnel. You know, the thing that’s got all that “critical mass“?
Here’s something I bet you didn’t know:
In other parts of Washington State, the highways are built and maintained using the state’s tax dollars. But the legislature and Governor Gregoire have proposed adding extra taxes, taxes that will be paid by the residents of varying taxing districts:
Residents of King County would pay the state gas tax each time they fill up their tank and about $200 or more for car tabs each year. Then, the taxpayers in the Port of Seattle’s district — which again is everyone in King County — will be on the hook for another $300 million from property taxes. Through the shell game of tax-increment financing and other city taxes, Seattle’s citizens alone will shoulder nearly a billion dollars. And finally, if the state Senate transportation chair has her way, we’d each have to pay a toll to drive in the new tunnel.
In other parts of the state, it doesn’t work this way:
in Eastern Washington and other parts of the state, the state actually pays for state highways. What confuses me is why local taxpayers should be taxed time after time to pay for infrastructure that is vital to the entire state’s economy. State highway projects anywhere else in the state would be paid for with state funds, not local taxes.
If the state doesn’t have the money for a tunnel, where does that leave us?
We don’t need a tunnel because there is another option that is faster, cheaper and less risky. Replacing the viaduct with the surface/transit proposal is the best available option because it is financially responsible, better for the environment and leaves our options open for the future. It removes the dangerous viaduct earlier and we could still build a tunnel or another elevated roadway. And it will carry enough traffic to get by for several years.
If it takes an op-ed from a Kent firefighter to shake up the stale conventional wisdom that surrounds the viaduct debate in Olympia, then that’s what it takes. What I want to know is, where are my Seattle legislators? I want to know why they’re ready to sign on to a project that’s 1% designed, a project that could cost as much as 12 billion dollars. Why are Seattle legislators so willing to lock us in to a terribly unfair scheme of local taxes for a state highway?
The state has already come up with $2.5 billion for viaduct replacement. Olympia is saying, in effect, if you want to gold-plate AWV, come up with the gold. Maybe this is just a clever way of killing the expensive tunnel option. On the other hand, maybe local politician and the taxation-without-representation port really will shove $200 car tabs, higher property taxes, and tolls down our throats.
I’ve been saying for a long time that the Port of Seattle is out of control and we need to throw it overboard. If ever there was an abusive and unresponsive public agency, POS is it. It’s hard to imagine a group of more tone-deaf public officials outside of North Korea. No other west coast port taxes homeowners to pay for Italian furniture and contractor bribes. The Legislature should disband the port and transfer its functions to King County right now! (Note I said transfer its functions, not its staff.) POS needs to be gone! The sooner, the better!
OK, the bottom line here is, the state has said “no” several times to financing a tunnel with state money, and King County taxpayers have said “no” several times to paying several hundred $$$ a year for car tabs for stuff like monorails and tunnels, so what is left to discuss? The tunnel idea has already been killed several times, so why is it still breathing?
Will, I thought you people said paying more taxes is patriotic.
@4 If paying taxes is patriotic, every Republican in the country is a fucking traitor, because paying taxes is something no Republican does.
Only the little people pay taxes, remember?
@5
I’m happy to pay more taxes for certain things, like replacing the viaduct with a tunnel.
Maybe if we call it a very narrow stadium…..
Question: “Why are Seattle legislators so willing to lock us in to a terribly unfair scheme of local taxes for a state highway?”
Answer: Because they can.
StoopidRabbit @ $5: Er…checked the tax returns of the Cabinet nominees of the Moron-in-Chief lately?
@9 None of them are running for president.
@7 You expect anyone to believe that?
Wingers are so delusional they brainwash themselves into believing someone believes their lies.
It’s hilarious when wingnuts ding Dems on being slow to pay their low 4, 5 and 6 figure tax bills and not so funny when they completely ignore Republican swift-boater cheats like Sam Wyly whose bills are in the hundreds of millions.
Just a sad irony you have to shrug off I guess.
It may be hard for the conservatives to understand, but I will willingly pay taxes for things that matter like schools and police and fire, but I don’t think it’s fiscally wise to throw good money at a needlessly costly project when there is a good viable option for much less.
(snark)Besides, the tunnel is going to flood when the oceans rise.(/snark)
I live in Everett, work in Bellevue, and sometimes go to Seattle for one reason or another. For me, it’s a regional transportation issue, and I wouldn’t expect the Seattle taxpayers to shoulder the burden by themselves. I’d be willing to be taxed, to some extent, to pay for a tunnel, if for no other reason than (a) provide more traffic alternatives when I need to drive to SeaTac airport, and (b) to give me a quiter, more enjoyable waterfront with which to entertain my visitors to the area.
Of course, if the NIMBY residents in Mukilteo would quit holding out against some limited commercial flights from Paine Field, I wouldn’t have to travel through Seattle to get to the airport so often. When I fly to L.A. I try to fly into Burbank or Long Beach, and avoid LAX unless there is no other option. I would like to see Paine Field to have a similar level of service as Burbank or Long Beach airports.
Will, you are barking up the wrong tree. You should think about barking at the Seattle mayor, city council and Ron Sims or his caretaker.
Bluejohn@14: We conservatives understand. We don’t mind paying for the good government that we get. We just don’t want to pay for a government that is all-pervasive and confiscatory.
PS: You may actually be a conservative but haven’t seen the light yet.
Aaahh.. Looks who’s behind on her taxes.
http://www.adn.com/palin/story/693695.html
The Diva herself. Queen of the expensive office makeover, the mayormobile, the white elephant sports center, a pipeline to nowhere and wardrobe bills that would shock a rich Republican.
Look at the big picture. Major capitol improvement projects like this take place once every 75 years and cost money. Your only building something like this once in your lifetime. It’s the best way to go. Pull the trigger and stop the freaking nitpicking hair splitting and attempts to milk the mouse. Tax me toll me. Let’s get on with it for god sake before it cost even more.
I hope y’all can appreciate the endless humor I find in this Progressive clusterfuck….the cost to date of just talking about options and how to pay for it could have covered the cost of a retrofit of the existing structure.
You KLOWNS are oh so serious about your Progressivism…yet show all of us right-headed thinkers what a bunch of incompetent fucks you are MISTAKING MOTION FOR ACTION!
It worked ok in the Economic heydays.
It doesn’t work at all in a recession.
Government ought to be setting up a framework for individuals to prosper, succeed & create wealth. In your Socialist Pinheaded World…government creates obstacles, extraordinary costs & taxes and could care less about the individual.
You KLOWNS are drowning in your own “group-think”. No life raft from me. People need to see 1st hand the results of the Progressive movement. They are seeing it.
For people struggling financially, it ain’t very funny.
For me….I can find the humor.
Stupid Bastards!!
You just want to kick the can down the road to your kids. You must not like them very much.
And it doesn’t matter if it’s a can loaded with corruption.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new.....probe.html
It just has to scratch your ideological itch.
You won’t be here to pay the piper so why worry?
Cynical’s humorous moments are always unintended. Like above, where Cynical is drowning in his narcissism. Sad and pathetic, but funny.
Why are Seattle legislators so willing to lock us in to a terribly unfair scheme of local taxes for a state highway?
The simple answer is because that’s what will get it passed.
4 T (how come it’s always #4?)
I think that was one person, not “you people.”
But paying taxes is what a citizen does, to pay for the services that government provides. Like roads.
@17 We don’t have a government that’s all-pervasive and confiscatory, and never have had, although the Nixon and W regimes came close.
@18 I beat you to that one. See #14 in the previous thread.
@19 “Look at the big picture. Major capitol improvement projects like this take place once every 75 years and cost money. Your only building something like this once in your lifetime.”
Seems more like 2 or 3 a year, and my taxes keep going up accordingly. I got a 10% property tax increase this year, and my property taxes have tripled since I moved into this hole in the ’90s. Taxes are going up much faster than the rate of inflation, and that’s a problem for old sick rabbits living on fixed incomes.
@20 At least we’re funny. Republicans aren’t funny.
@28 “Republicans aren’t funny.”
Not intentionally.
Here’s what should happen:
1. Create a regional highway agency as a counterpart to Sound Transit.
2. Direct all gas taxes within that metro region to that agency instead of the state.
3. Transfer control of all highways in the region to the regional highway agency.
4. Give control over future increases in the gas tax to the regional agency.
5. The region manages and maintain its own highways with its own money without any state interference or help.
6. The rest of the state pays for its highways without subsidies from the metro region.
7. If we decide to build an expensive tunnel at the regional level, then we deserve the expense and outcome. Hopefully, though, we’ll be cautious and try surface and transit first.
Fuck Seattle.
I think #8’s on to something.
@19 has the right idea. Something that is a very long-lived project at extra cost, like a bridge or tunnel, seems to need additional dollars to build, let alone maintain and replace (hint, hint Washington Legislators). Tolls are already in place for the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, proposed for the 520 bridge and should be considered for the viaduct answer in any form.
Toll the viaduct’s replacement. Do it soon.
@18
Hardly behind on her taxes.
“At the Governor’s request, we reviewed the situation to determine whether we were in full compliance with the pertinent Internal Revenue Service regulations,” Kreitzer wrote. “As a result of this review, we determined that per diem needs to be treated as income, requiring a revision of W-2 forms for any affected employees.”
The new determination by administration officials won’t affect state lawmakers, said Pam Varni, director of the Legislative Affairs agency.”
Uh, looks like this was initiated by the Gov, in an environment of “gotcha politics” to make sure everything with her obligations were correct. It was a NEW determination that she owes taxes on $17,000 if income.
So no, this is not in the same league as say Daschle, who new for 3 years he owed, and KNOWINGLY and WILLFULLY refused to pay them.
Palin – requested review to ensure all was on the up and up. Discoved ~$17,000 in per diem that should be considered income, and is taking action.
Daschle- Informed about taxes owed for services that needed to be included as income. Not initiated by Daschle, he was found out….
Then, willfully refusing to pay.
There are plenty of political tax cheats out there YLB, but this one is a real stretch…
@34: BS – She knew that the extras she was getting on taxpayer expense were taxable – the same as the driver for Daschle.
She is officially a tax cheat. If you condemned Daschle, then you are a hypocrite for excusing Palin.
Same exact thing – neither one paid attention to what was supposed to be paid and owed back taxes. She misinterpreted EXISTING tax law – that is why she owes back taxes. This was a determination AFTER the fact that she broke the tax law by not paying.
roger said:
“If paying taxes is patriotic, every Republican in the country is a fucking traitor, because paying taxes is something no Republican does.”
Well, that settles it, folks: I have roger’s statement to prove I’m not a Republican.
I pay lots of taxes, BTW, but don’t consider myself a Dem or a Rep.
Will…
I am not sure where you are on this. As I see it the only fair thing is to reroute the north south traffic the State pays for outside of Seattle. The city does not benefit from a truck carrying Bowflex parts from Vancouver WA to Vancouver BC. Using valuable real estate in Seattle as a route for commercial NS traffic is not rational.
I favor the surface street idea with money spent here by us King Co tax payers to improve our access to and from the joys of Seattle’s stadia and downtown law offices.
If the state need to make NS traffic efficient .. re route it through the Eastside.
Did it ever occur to people that every plan BUT the surface transit option would create quite a few longer term jobs for our ailing economy?
Nothing will ever get done if people keep whining on and on when their favorite choice for replacing the viaduct isn’t picked by the final consensus.
#37: Uhhh, maybe your Seattle-centric side is showing again SJ. Reroute commercial traffic through 405?
That is plain stupid. 405 is just as crowded and just as critical as I-5. Ever heard of a small company called Microsoft over there on the east side or maybe Boeing down at Renton?
No – there needs to be more alternatives for traffic over the whole Puget Sound region – more mass transit (not the damn lousy buses that foul up traffic), more highways for electric cars and more density to make things more efficient.
The street option at the present time is not good for traffic – I-5 and 405 will be more crowded and become parking lots. We need to plan for today and for the future.
@39 CNR
The fact that there are also problems on the Eastside does make make the idea of the tunnel any better.
Aurora is a lousy road to use for NS traffic and connecting Aurora through a two lane tunnel to I999 south is asking for gridlock. Aurora, and eventually I99 south, function best as radial, connecting Seattle to regions N and S so folks can drive to and from the central city.
How many shippers will ever want to use this route to go NS?
The sensible answer would be a traffic plan for the “cascade Corridor,” that is the coastal plain between the mountains and Puget Sound. Any fix, needs to follow some rules:
1. It makes no sense to use urban property for a NS throughway. I 405 is not a great answer because Bellevue is becoming a city but I99 is a worse answer.
2. We should optimize I5 and I 405 to be as efficient as they can be w/o consuming more land in their downtowns. I suspect there is more room for improvement in I405 than I5.
3. We do need high speed rail as an alternative NS route. I gather the Obama’s new package has some funds for this.
4. With all that, we will still need to plan for I605. Unless this costs MS valuable land, I suspect they would want an I 605.
5. We also need to understand that the long term growth in the Cascade Corridor is most likely to occur between Seattle and BC.
Like I said, I hope y’all can appreciate the endless humor I find in this Progressive clusterfuck….the cost to date of just talking about options and how to pay for it could have covered the cost of a retrofit of the existing structure.
You KLOWNS are oh so serious about your Progressivism…yet show all of us right-headed thinkers what a bunch of incompetent fucks you are MISTAKING MOTION FOR ACTION!
It worked ok in the Economic heydays.
It doesn’t work at all in a recession.
Government ought to be setting up a framework for individuals to prosper, succeed & create wealth. In your Socialist Pinheaded World…government creates obstacles, extraordinary costs & taxes and could care less about the individual.
You KLOWNS are drowning in your own “group-think”. No life raft from me. People need to see 1st hand the results of the Progressive movement. They are seeing it.
For people struggling financially, it ain’t very funny.
For me….I can find the humor.
Stupid Bastards!!