So here’s a question: are right-wing “news” hosts like Fox’s Sean Hannity and MSNBC’s Joe Scarborough stupid, lazy or just plain liars? Both hosts repeatedly touted Dr. William Hammesfahr as a “Nobel Prize nominee,” Hannity eight times during a single hour-long program, and Scarborough four times. But according to Media Matters:
Hammesfahr, a Florida neurologist disciplined in 2003 by the Florida Board of Medicine who claims he can help Terri Schiavo, testified during an October 2002 court hearing on the Schiavo case that his claim to be a Nobel nominee is based on a letter written by Rep. Mike Bilirakis (R-FL) recommending him for the prize. But Bilirakis is not qualified to make a valid nomination under the Nobel rules.
Reading the so-called “nominating letter,” I’m not sure Rep. Bilirakis is even qualified to be a congressman:
It is my distinct privilege to present to the Committee, Dr. William M. Hammesfahr, for the Nobel Peace Prize in Medicine.
“The Nobel Peace Prize in Medicine”…? What a ditz.
Anyway, seeing as all you need these days to get a nomination is a letter from a slightly confused Floridian, my mother has written a letter nominating me for the Nobel Peace Prize in Medicine too. She always did want me to be a doctor.
As a member of the U.S. Congress, Rep. Mike Bilrakis is qualified to nominate Dr. William Hammesfahr for the Nobel Peace Prize. Here are the official rules from the Nobel Prize website:
http://nobelprize.org/peace/no.....ators.html
The Nominators – Peace
Right to submit proposals for the Nobel Peace Prize, based on the principle of competence and universality, shall by statute be enjoyed by:
1. Members of national assemblies and governments of states;
2. Members of international courts;
3. University rectors; professors of social sciences, history, philosophy, law and theology; directors of peace research institutes and foreign policy institutes;
4. Persons who have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize;
5. Board members of organizations who have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize;
6. Active and former members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee; (proposals by members of the Committee to be submitted no later than at the first meeting of the Committee after February 1) and
7. Former advisers appointed by the Norwegian Nobel Institute.
The Nobel Peace Prize may also be awarded to institutions and associations.
Prize-Awarder: The Norwegian Nobel Committee, Oslo
The U.S. Congress is a “national assembly” (see Paragraph 1) and therefore any member of Congress can make a nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize.
The only problem with this nomination is that the Nobel Peace Prize is not usually awarded for works in the field of medicine. However, almost anything can qualify for a nomination, and even the actual awards use diverse criteria. The Nobel Peace Prize website says:
“The ways and means to achieve peace are as diverse as the individuals and organizations rewarded with the Nobel Peace Prize.”
On the other hand, had Rep. Bilrakis intended to nominate Dr. Hammesfahr for the “Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine”, it is pretty clear that Rep. Bilrakis is not a qualified nominator for that particular prize, or any of the other prizes other than the “Nobel Peace Prize”.
Unfortunately, Goldy, your mother probably isn’t qualified to nominate you for the Nobel Peace Prize. (I could be wrong, of course.) But lots of people are qualified to do so.
“Noble Peace Prize in Medicine” — what an interesting concept. Wonder if any quack who gives a big enough donation to their Congress person can get the such a nomination? And since any “national assembly” will qualify, I am sure you could find someone in one of the more obscure countries to nominate you.
stupid, lazy or just plain liars?
All of the above.
Both Hannity and Scarborough did that because they wanted to keep up the tradition of right wing talk show hosts: Unfair & Unbalanced & Always Wrong.
Seriously, I’m really surprised that in the face of the overwhelming (82% in the CBS poll) public rejection of the Christian zealot position in the Schiavo case — which even included well over half of Americans who call themselves Evangelical Christians — that right wing talk show hosts continue to support the parents’ losing arguments.
How come those characters don’t get it yet that even conservative Republicans believe the husband and the courts are correct in their rulings?
Richard Pope@1: I nominate GOLDY for the NOBLE PRICE. I have a signed statement from Howard Hughes that was found in the Morman Church that gave him the authority to bypass the U.S Congress. Being I am in possession of it and know the law about possession is nine tenths of the law, that makes me qualified to act even though I realize I am not next of kin, don’t have to prove anything and don’t have to be credible to act on this. The history of this goes back a ways. During a hurried adhoc session, attended by three right-wingers shortly after midnight, there was found to be an unwritten clause in the constitution that had went un-noticed all these years and could be sneaked around just enough to gave the authority away. They History has a way of repeating itself. GOOD LUCK GOLDY.
Goldy: Reason you qualify is that, NOBLE PRICE AWARD is given to nobels who pay a great price. Howard always did. I have seen the price you pay for having an OPEN THREAD. :-)
Nelson:
The reason Hannity and Scarborough did that was cuz that was the word for the day from Karl and the boys at the head shed. Unfortunately, Karl had his wet finger in the wrong place when he detected what he thought was breeze from the right. Turns out it was those beans he’d eaten for lunch the day before, and the right was the other direction and downwind. Now they are all complaining about the smell of this whole affair.
Next will be, they were forced into action, by the inaction of the dems.
Same ol song and dance.
They should nominate DeLay for the Mother Teresa Award while they’re at it. But being nominated and getting chosen are two different things, aren’t they?
Diggindude@7. Surprised your up an at ’em after last night’s open thread. Some people and their kids.
Richard Pope proves Goldy wrong and instead of admitting it you all ignore what he said. It must be nice being a liberal, free from logic and reality whenever it is inconvenient.
How many Liberals does it take to change a light bulb?
None, they perfer to be in the dark.
Dubyasux@8. There ya go, you saidd you would change your name and by Jesus you did. I like it. Just goes to show those right-wingers a lib keeps his word. :-)
Adreil@ Repers know they can’t change the world so they rearrange it by derangment.
Chee @ 11
Unless they are our current governor (I use that term loosely) that claimed that she wouldn’t raise taxes. You can’t speak for all Liberals like I can’t speak for all Conservatives, there will always be someone who is full of it on both sides of the aisle.
are you 12 chee? that was pathetic I’ll give you another shot.
Adriell@13. I hate it when you think rational. :-)
Adriel… do you actually read anything before spouting off. Pope did NOT prove him wrong. In fact, he points out that Bilirakis was NOT qualified to nominate Hammesfahr for an award in medicine and there is no such thing as a “Noble Peace Prize in Medicine.”
That is rather like saying his dog wrote a letter to award him the Congressional Medal of Honor and going around on TV proclaiming it to be true.
Fox News is again – SURPRISE! – throwing out propaganda that they must know is false. If you have any credibility you can procede to condemn them as much as you would Dan Rather. If not, sit down and shut up.
The regulations for the actual Nobel Prize for Medicine are linked below.
http://nobelprize.org/medicine.....ators.html
Chee @ 9
I just feel bad, that they will be back shortly to ruin the thread again.
They are very good at lies and false accusations.
Terrible when it comes to backing up their fibs.
Adriel @ 10
Richard Pope does not prove Goldy wrong. Richard correctly points out that the Florida neurologist was not validly nominated for a Nobel Prize in Medicine or Physiology. It appears that Rep. Bilirakis had no idea what he was doing and mistook a Peace Prize nomination (which he is qualified to make) for a very different type of prize awarded for scientific innovation (which Bilirakis is not qualified to make).
Hannity and Scarborough are being disingenuous in bringing up this muddled nomination. They are trying to imply that Dr. Hammesfahr is a leading biomedical researcher, whose research merited a Nobel prize (or, at least, a nomination). The implication is that his medical advice merits special attention over the other physicians who have examined the medical evidence in the Schiavo case.
In fact, Hammesfahr has no credentials that even approach Nobel Prize material. Scientists that win Nobel prizes typically have a rich record of scientific research published in peer-reviewed scientific journals. The work cited in awarding the prize must include an innovative scientific finding, properly described in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, and verified by other qualified researchers. Dr. Hammesfahr has no record of scientific publication whatsoever. Check it for yourself: go to the National Library of Medicine (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/) and search Pubmed for publications by “Hammesfahr-WD”. Zip, zero, zilch.
In sum, Dr. Hammesfahr has no scientific credentials at all. An absent record is not made stronger by a confused letter from a politician. Goldy’s ridicule is well placed.
Fine I see what you are talking about, but lets not try and say this is as Dan Rather, ol’Dan knew that the information he presented was 80% assured to be false but he tried to falsely swing the election anyway. Hannity is just trying to prove that someone has the right to live, yes mistakenly spouting information but who hasn’t?
The concept of “Live and let live” flew out Bush’s Oval Window when Bush saw a window of opportunity; Terri Schiavo. Having top advisors and legal aides, all who could predict the outcome in advance, Bush took mount on his White Horse, rode the high profile political wave to death. Bush knew what he was doing but thought the public would not and he would be seen as the White Knight In Shiny Armor. Instead it had the affect of a boom-er-ang. The shutter swung back and hit him in the ass while he was minding someone eles’s business. Bush knew what he was doing was being done under false pretense. That is what some say about Dan Rather also.
Fine I see what you are talking about, but lets not try and say this is as Dan Rather, ol’Dan knew that the information he presented was 80% assured to be false but he tried to falsely swing the election anyway. Hannity is just trying to prove that someone has the right to live, yes mistakenly spouting information but who hasn’t?
Comment by Adriel
I saw an interview with dan rather not long ago, and he still swears the information was true, regardless of whether or not the copy he had was the original.
In fact, many people already know in their hearts, gwdummy required special treatment.
Do you think he skipped around all those other more qualified candidates, because he was NOT getting special treatment?
Man… I’m just as bad as some of you righties. I posted a response to Richard without having finished reading his post… just jumped to a conclusion. My bad.
Fortunately for me, I have the power to edit and delete my comments. But I thought I’d better admit my mistake. (FYI, I have on several occasions received requests from authors to delete comments they later regret, and have obliged.)
Anyway, Adriel like me, perhaps you should read through the end of Richard’s comment before assuming it refuted my original post.
Adriel @21 Ok fine, leave Rather out of it. Just on its merits this case stinks to high heaven and is the worst form of propaganda. Are we to believe that Hannity is simply too busy to bother to run a google search that took me all of 2 minutes to find out this ‘doctor’ was full of crap? Does Fox not employ any staff that can run fact checks? Nah, it must simply be an honest mistae.
“NOBEL PEACE PRIZE IN MEDICINE!” C’mon, it does not even pass a grammar check yet alone a fact check. Put down the Kool-Aid, take off the blinders and face facts. These guys are trumpeting propaganda to millions of people who do not know any better, playing on their emotions and giving the pretense of science all in order to demonize a family tragedy.
It does not get much lower then this in my book. And the fact that it is done during Holy Week makes it all the more cheap and loathsome.
“These guys are trumpeting propaganda to millions of people who do not know any better, playing on their emotions” – ninid
Turn about isn’t fair play anymore? The dems have been doing this for years.
I refuse to believe that Bush called the judge to tell him that they should pull the plug because Easter is coming up, the judge took the initiative himself. The judge by the way was appointed during the Clinton Administration so you tell me who we should blame Conservatives or Liberals? I find it disgusting that life is so cheap that you feel he should let it go as to not make it look like propaganda. One more thing There ARE Democrats on Bush’s side of this issue it isn’t just a right wing christian thing.
Adriel@ 24
Since you are now trying to argue moral equivalence and change the subject, can I take it that you agree with the arguments above?
Hannity, makes a practice of throwing out passive accusations.
Just look at how many times he tried to refute nebr, on when the recession started, after he KNEW he was wrong.
Adriel, you are getting desperate here. Someone on another web site was keeping a count of the number of judges who all ruled for Terri Schiavo’s husband. As of last count it was running somewhere around 30 separate judges. But to keep things simple for you, lets look at the 11th Circuit. This is the most conservative appeals court in the nation and is stacked with Republican appointees. They voted 10-2 in favor of the husbands right to make medical decisions for his wife. (You are right that one of the dissents was actually a Clinton appointee, but that also undermines your ‘logic’ about Judge Greer)
And to make a hopeless attempt to turn this into a bipartisan issue is not going anywhere. This is a Republican fiasco and the vast majority of the country finds it to be a horrible governmental intrusion in a private family affair lead by the Bush brothers, Delay and the Republicans in Congress.
So much for the party of limited government…. Maybe you will get lucky and people won’t remember this in 2006. Maybe not.
“They voted 10-2 in favor of the husbands right to make medical decisions for his wife.” – ninid
The real question is why hasn’t he divorced her?, especially since he is in a common law marriage also. What does this man have to gain by her death? That is why most are apposed to this, as well as it being cruel and unusual the way in which she is dying, those are the two points I agree with. Wouldn’t you be mad if a jail was starving it’s inmates to death? then why is it when an innocent individual (incapacitated be it) is on the recieving end then it’s ok?
Greer is a state court judge. He could not have been nominated by Clinton.
Funny that out of all I said you picked out one miniscule point to get nit picky on insted of the real meat of the issue.
If this was considered “cruel and Unusual”, it wouldn’t be happening.
That alone, would be enough to stop it.
Why does he need to gain from it?
And why does your argument hinge on the fact he is gaining?
How could these courts, all see past this, but you have found the smoking gun?
Some people in jail, I would love to see starved to death.
Like this couney, child rapist/killer.
This use of the word “starved” is very deceptive, and asimilates, what hannity is doing, by suggesting hammersfahr, is credible.
Starved, is what happens to a functioning human being, that is deprived of eating.
Terri schiavo doesn’t “eat”, she is pumped full of water, and nutrients, which more closely resembles, sticking a plant food spike in an azalea.
Adriel –
Go read the closest thing you will get to an objective report on the facts of the case, including Micheal Schiavo and the parents motivations. This guy was appointed by Jeb Bush and teh National Review link might make you feel better as well.
http://www.nationalreview.com/.....Report.pdf
Diggindude @ 32
She isn’t starving to death? that is the most ignorant thing I’ve heard on this blog. “what sun I can’t see it, no matter that I crammed my head up my ass as not to see it.”
Once again if her husband has nothing to gain then why does he want her dead? If I were him I’d File for divorce and let her parents deal with her and her medical problems. If you skip over that simple question then you really are SELECTIVELY BLIND.
Adreil@29. The real issue as you call it, is not anyone’s business. DAM the man to hell and back if it turns your crank but the real issue before the courts and within the bounds of the law donot agree with you. In fact, the judge sharply reprimended and reminded people that this what was not about sympathy or anything else but about an issue of law. Common law, live-ins, cheats and creeps are a dime a dozen. Your hungup up on the fact he has a live-in and did not divorce Terry. NOT the REAL issue. Michael deals with his personal issues as he has a right to. Broaden your horizons.
Chee address the fact that she is dying in a cruel and unusual way that we as Americans won’t even let the most terrible of criminals die in. Once again also direct my other question http://www.horsesass.org/my-co.....ment-18783
I still think in this case the word “starved” is used for sensationalism, the way it has worked on you.
Terri, has been proven to not have any cognitive function.
My comparing her to an azalea, probably wasn’t accurate, as plants have been shown by some to respond to stimulus.
She has no feelings of pain, she has no control over her bodily functions, she doesn’t respond to any sensory input, as that part of her brain, has long since left the building.
I realize you want to see the emotional stress terri must be enduring over this, but it has been shown many times, those things are non existent, and are projected on her, by others.
Adreil@35. While your assuming there is something to gain. Why not assume their is nothing to gain? How you would do things in a given situation you do not know yet as you haven’t been given the situation. Besides, where is the law that says you don’t have a right to make your own decisions as Michael does. The root of one’s thinking and core of most problems stem from narrow-mindedness, not about intelligence or lack of it. Michael has a much right as we all do. The differance is this man has been MOST horribly defamed, slandered and libeled by so-called goody-two-shoes and religious fanatics that want to put their should and shouldn’t box on his life. They are the ones that need to get on their knees before God and ask forgiveness instead of praying for Terry while excluding Michael as if he was a worthless piece of dog shit without a bone of love and commpassion for Terry. That is the issue that is sickening.
Adriel @ 37, you poor dear. This really has you upset.
But, keep in mind that Terri is a vegetable. She has no consciousness and cannot feel pain. This is no more cruel than yanking carrots out of the ground and leaving them to “die” in the pantry, or ridding your house of mice using a trap.
Oh, and I apologize to you if you are vegan or a follower of Jain Dharma, in which case, we simply disagree about the sanctity of life lacking human consciousness.
And a big hug and kiss to you, Adriel! I hope you feel better.
Medical Science Reports: It is not a cruel death or unusual death, it is peaceful, unpainfull and in fact said to be like twilight sleep. Terry does not feel.
“doesn’t respond to any sensory input”
Try watching tv and see her eyes follow individuals and the balloon, then listen to the accounts of attending nurses that she has tried to communicate with them as well as smiles at them, but what do they know they are only with her everyday.
Oh and the nurses also quoted Michael as saying “is the bitch dead yet?”
Ive watched the video, they did a very good editting job, to glean 20 seconds of “smiles and communication” out of possibly 8 or more hours of video.
These hospice workers, are more reliable in their assessment of terri than are neurologists?
I doubt that very much, but I dont have to wonder. Terri has been repeatedly scrutinized, to the point there is NO doubt.
I found a little article about what you refer to as “STARVING” terri:
http://www.latimes.com/news/na.....2521.story
Again, adriel, you are reading the right wing extremist rumors, that char keeps refering to.
Try something more reliable.
Wacko wingers, arent reliable for the truth.
They have made a mockery of this very private situation.
Whatever, there is no logic where there are fool. These neurologists will meet their maker just like the rest of us and God will judge them by their deeds or mis-deeds.
Diggindude @ 45
You are a diluted arrogant a$$hole that has no right to condemn her to death, If the Nurses said these things like I heard them say then who are you to say they are making it up? You are the kind of Democrat that only cares about your own freedom and could give a rats ass about others. For all your talk about compassion and the poor helpless and down trodden you really don’t care you are just buying prestige instead of earning it honestly.
I understand the sensitive nature of people and why they find this issue saddens them, why they want to find a reason for what they can not conceive as a right to die in the way Terri will. If you were Terri you wouldn’t be you and so forth. Older civilizations looked at death in any ways. The elders in the tribes, walked away to die alone of hunger and cold. Many hold the theory, “cry at birth,laugh at death.” We are born to die. Trying to determine or agree on what is after death is still the great mystery of life. Terri’s death will be a peaceful. You can not say it was not God’s will that it is happening as it is. Nor can I
ADREIL@46. Question: If your are a spiritual person, whybe troubled over what God has the ability to take care of. As I read it, we have not been appointed to watch over his flock according to the Bible. Intervention may not be a bad thing. What is a bad thing is all the scandalizing and damnation.
You are a diluted arrogant a$$hole that has no right to condemn her to death, If the Nurses said these things like I heard them say then who are you to say they are making it up? You are the kind of Democrat that only cares about your own freedom and could give a rats ass about others. For all your talk about compassion and the poor helpless and down trodden you really don’t care you are just buying prestige instead of earning it honestly.
Comment by Adriel
thats not very accurate, adriel. What would I have to gain?
I’ve seen handicapped children, that lived for over 20 years, without ever learning to walk.
A terrible way to go through life, but not once, did I ever think my friends little brother should be left to die.
See, he was brain damaged, but still interacted with people.
He was living the only life he ever knew.
It never crossed my mind in all the years i knew this little guy, that he should not live.
Terri schiavo, was a once vibrant human being, that was robbed of life, in 1990.
Since then, she has been animated tissue, incapable of any progress. She is totally gone, as far as any resemblance of the person she was, and has been gone for 15 years.
How long, do they need to keep her on display, against her wishes?
Chee @ 49
Cain was punished not only for killing Abel, but for questioning God “am I my brother’s keeper?” It is implied in The Bible that we are our brothers keeper in the sense that we need to look out for others well being, not just our own.
The fact is, Terri is dying as we speak, this can not be reversed, dehydration has progressed far beyond the level where she could be safely rehydrated. She has had the last rites. Time has come for her to move on. Nothing we say matters. All has been said.
Chee @ 11
Just trying to blend in. Nowadays, using a handle like “Don” is like wearing a white shirt and narrow tie.
Adriel @ 13
“there will always be someone who is full of it on both sides of the aisle”
I nominate you, but not for a Nobel Prize.
ADREIL@51. Arithmetic 101. In the beginning there was only two people, Adam and Eve who had two sons, that makes four. Cain slew Able, now we have three. Angry God, threw Evil Cain out of the Garden of Eden, now we have two people left in Eden. Here comes the clumsy part of the arithmetic problem. There is two people left in Eden. Cain moves to Land Of Nod. That total alive stands at three now. The Good Book says, Cain went into the Land Of Nod and “took himself a wife.” His offspring must have looked like Monkeys. Who was his wife? Never take history literally or with blind faith.
Diggindude @ 50
“How long, do they need to keep her on display, against her wishes?”
Who is to say what her wishes are? She was raised Catholic with views that life is precious and should not be ended prematurely, however her husband claims that she would want to live like this.
Her family claims that she doesn’t want to die, Taken at face value weigh the three and you come up with 2 for her living.
Take it again after listening to the attending nurses, and you once again have the someone questioning the validity of Michael’s claims that she wants to die.
Dubyasux @ 54
How absolutely childish of you Don, I don’t remember regressing do you?
Chee @ 56
I am guessing there was a point in all of that, am I wrong?
Chee @ 55
Damn! i thought you were going for a brain teaser!!
LOL!
Adreil@51. Do you support incest and not support Micheal having common-law sexual union? You can’t start the human race with two people and end up with a race of them. So does that mean incest is okay?
Adriel @ 56
If you choose to ignore the law, and our justice system, how will you ever make sense of whats happening?
It has been found, after much scrutiny, she did not want to live this way.
That is accepted as the truth.
These nurses, were fired, for not caring for terri schiavo, enough.
The parents, were all cozy with michael schiavo, until he settled the case, and he refused to split the money with them.
They had their falling out, within 2 weeks of the money payout.
Then they tried to get custody of terri, after michael refused to split his money, possibly in hopes they could share hers.
These things are documented well.
diggindude@59. Brain teaser? Like Hell, it was time for a lid blower. :-)
Adriel @ 25
The truth is families deal with end-of-life decisions like this every day without press coverage or political hoopla. According to USA Today the Schiavo case got media attention because there’s a family feud involved, and the feud started when Michael Schiavo refused to give the Schindlers half of his share of the malpractice award. They wouldn’t accept the fact that under Florida law they weren’t entitled to money, and now they are once again displaying their stubborn unwillingness to accept a decision by the courts.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/n.....htm?csp=23
Dubyasux@53. Funny. Not a bad blend, scotch on the rocks goes well too if you wear white socks.
Nindid @ 28
The not-so-nice underbelly of the Schiavo affair is that fanatical right-wing groups are raising tons of money by stirring the fires and exploiting the public’s emotions.
Meanwhile, a nutcase (no doubt stirred up by the media hoopla) has been arrested for offering a $250,000 bounty for the murder of Michael Schiavo, another nutcase was arrested in the act of trying to steal a gun he planned to use to “rescue” Terri, and judges involved in the case are under protection because of death threats against them.
Anyone who thinks the angry shouting coming from the right-wingers and the religious fanatics is just harmless noise had better think again. The mindset of these people makes me fearful for our country. They’ve already demonstrated their willingness to kill by murdering abortion doctors and clinic workers; what’s next, wholesale armed assaults on those they consider “enemies”? Are we on a path to civil war?
Adriel – it’s fairly simple, and very frustrating that you don’t get it. The facts surrounding this case are clear.
1) The people you believe are liars (Hammesfahr, Iyer). The Schindler’s won’t even rely on the affidavits of Iyer because they know they’re untrue. The judge (Greer) specifically commented that Iyer’s claims were “incredible” (not in a good way), when he originally rejected them, noting that the Schindler’s refused to use them as evidence on their side.
2) The courts have had the chance to review all of the evidence, including the complete video-tapes and conduct multiple in-person examinations of Terri Schiavo with actual neurologists as recently as 2002. The independent court-appointed neuroligists refute all of the medical claims of the parents and the people who claim Terri is not in a PVS. 99% of the people who claim Terri is not in a PVS have not examined her personally, and the 1% that have aren’t qualified (Hammesfhar, Iyer).
3) The courts have also ruled that Terri would not want to live in a PVS hooked up to tubes. You may not agree with the courts, but I seriously doubt that you’ve actually looked at the evidence in any legal fashion. You simply choose to believe one side of the evidence. The courts looked at evidence from her parents, her husband and her friends.
4) The law also clearly states that feeding tubes are artificial means of life support, especially after 15 years of living in a PVS. This has been confirmed, twice, at the Supreme Court level, in cases unrelated to this. You may not agree with that decision, but the fact remains that you’re legally in the wrong here.
3) Even your statements about end-of-life quality through starvation are based on quotes from people who have no idea what they’re talking about.
http://www.salon.com/news/wire.....index.html
“In a recent New England Journal of Medicine study, hospice nurses rated the deaths of terminally ill people who voluntarily stopped eating and drinking. On a scale of zero to nine, with the highest number being “a very good death,” their average rating was eight.”
So let’s re-cap:
1) You choose to believe people that are lying, either about the facts, their qualifications or both.
2) Your knowledge of the the law regarding feeding tubes is wrong.
3) Your statements about starvation for people in PVS or other hospice-care are wrong.
4) The courts, including heavily “Republican” ones have rejected the Schindler’s arguments nearly 30 times, either in fact, or on legal precedent.
You’re free to believe whatever you want, but you clearly have no interest in the truth or the law. If you want to learn something from a more neutral place, try reading the complete history of the case at Abstract Appeal
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html
The republicans should be watching Kyrgyzstan.
This is what black box voting leads to.
Adriel @ 29
“The real question is why hasn’t he divorced her?, especially since he is in a common law marriage also. What does this man have to gain by her death? That is why most are apposed to this, as well as it being cruel and unusual the way in which she is dying, those are the two points I agree with.”
Adriel, Adriel! You are copying-and-pasting from rightwing blogs again! When will you ever learn? There are at least three misstatements in your post.
1. Michael Schiavo is not “in a common law marriage.” There is no such thing in Florida. Fla. Stat. Sec. 741.211 (2004). But even if Florida recognized common law marriages, the law would not recognize such a marriage where one of the individuals is already married.
2. Most people are opposed to this? Where did you get this nonsense from? The polls I’ve seen show 80% of the public sides with Michael Schiavo, including a majority of evangelical Christians.
3. No one in the medical community agrees with your claim this is a “cruel” way to die, even in conscious patients. In the case of a non-sentient patient like Terri Schiavo, the term “cruelty” has no meaning because she has no more ability to feel or be aware of pain or discomfort than a tree or rock.
4. Your use of the “cruel and unusual” language of the 8th Amendment demonstrates your ignorance of Constitutional law. The 8th Amendment prohibits the government from inflicting cruel and unusual punishment. The removal of Terri’s feeding tube is neither a punishment, nor an act of government, and clearly does not fall within the 8th Amendment. The Constitutional provisions that do apply to her case are the 4th Amendment due process and equal protection guarantees. These have been thoroughly litigated in both state and federal courts.
Diggindude@66. Ever wonder why so much emphasis on Micheal living with a woman he is not married to and having another life and family bother the moralists. The Adam and Eve weren’t marrried. Their story is rooted in incest, even farmers know you can only do so much with only one bull and only one cow. :-)
Adriel @ 34, 35
You’ve been reading waaaay too many right wing blogs. When are you going to learn that r/w blogs are chock-a-block full of lies? The nursing staffs have NEVER reported any response to stimulus. All of the leading experts on PVS agree that eyelid fluttering, eye movements, facial expressions, and moans are typical of all PVS patients — and DO NOT mean these patients have any sensory perception or cognitive awareness, or are responding to external stimuli. The court-appointed GAL who reviewed the tapes allegedly showing Terri responding to her parents stated that when the entire tapes are reviewed it’s clear that her “responses” occur randomly — if you wave a balloon at her for 4 hours, chances are sometime within the 4 hours her eyes will roll in the same direction as the balloon a couple times. Means nothing. The ideologues disputing the medical evidence are grasping at straws and making up facts to promote their arguments. There’s nothing there.
DYBASUX@68. Darn you, you screwed up my posts. I used the word common-law twice today. This works: Concubinage, the cohabitation of a man and his concubine. Thanks you legal fox you!
Adriel @ 46
It is utterly (and sadly) clear you are so emotionally wrapped up in this that you can no longer think straight.
Adriel @ 57
You’re certainly acting very childish in this thread. I’ve seen more restrained temper tantrums from three-year-olds.
Chee @ 64
I became a Democrat when I found out that scotch on the rocks is out of my price range.
Chee @ 69
The moral is, if you’re the only bull and cow on Earth — it’s party time!!! :D
Chee @ 71
My bad! I feel obliged to offer you a consolation. Non-lawyers are permitted to use “common law marriage” in the vernacular when referring to (in proper legal terminology) “meretricious relationship.” Of course, law students better not get caught by their professors, and lawyers better not get caught by judges, using a legal term of art in its vernacular meaning. That’s a WHACK!!! on the knuckles with a ruler if you’re caught. :O
SEEMS LIKE WHEN BILL CLINTON WAS SICK DURING THE LAST ELECTION JOHN KERRY WENT TO SEE HIM WHILE THERE KERRY DID NOT THINKK GOOD OLD BILL WOULD MAKE IT SO KERRY ASKED HIM IF THERE WAS ANYTHING HE COULD DO FOR HIM AFTER A SHORT TIME BILL JUST LOOKED UP AT KERRY AND SAID YES THERE WAS JUST GO OUT THERE AND WIN ONE FOR THE GROUPPER
Bulish @ 77
I’m confused. Which word did you misspell — “grouper” as in fish, or “groper” like Guvenator Arnold?
Dubyasux@78. You took the bait, fishy story. Hard to beieve Arne won Cal-E-fornia hands down. (lol)
For those interested in reading the actual report from Guardian ad litem appointed under “Terri’s Law” to advise the Governor, here’s a link. This was produced at the end of 2003 and is incredibly informative.
http://abstractappeal.com/schi.....Report.pdf
Here’s the basic purpose of the report:
(emphasis added).
Wolfson was assigned to decide what’s in the best interest of Terri Schiavo, and you’ll read all throughout the report that he considered things from that perspective.
Here’s the report’s basic conclusion:
Also note the foot-note (for those of you that insist on demonizing Michael Schiavo):
You can believe the “diagnoses from afar” made by quacks, the inflammatory rhetoric of anti-abortion extremists and the smear campaign taking place on talk-radio, or you can listen to a neutral party that reviewed the entire case.
Your call.
Just one question, Goldy–have you read it all the way through or did you just assume it made your case?
Dubya, it may not be a commonlaw marriage in Florida, but it may be adultery and spousal abuse, you dope.
This is too rich: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/26/212149/338
Tom Delay and the Schindler’s spiritual advisors, who have been taking absolutist positions, both took wholly different positions issue when it directly affected them.
I would like those of you who rail on and on about the “situational ethics” of Democrats and how Democrats are politicizing this issue to now kindly eat your hats.
Steve @ 81
It’s adultery, all right, just like GOP morality enforcer Newt Gingrich indulged in with his young chickee-poo while his wife lay dying of cancer.
As for spousal abuse, you’re just spouting right-wing hot air.
jrcricket @ 82
GOP motto: Do as I say, not as I do.
It seems the crying, grieving priests, when confronted with the opportunity to “play god”, pulled the lever also!
Seems delay, has not cornered the market on hypocrasy.
EXERPT:
“”””A Florida paper reports that three members of the Franciscan Brothers of Peace
“have been at the side of the Schinlder family as it fights to have Terri’s Schiavo’s feeding tube reinserted.”
It seems this staunch right-to-life order was faced with a similar decision when their founder became brain damaged after suffering a heart attack. Here’s what the paper reports.
In 1982, Michael Gaworski founded the order.
The fledgling group took over a former convent and the Brothers began collecting food and clothing for the needy, ministering to international survivors of torture, witnessing at a juvenile detention center and conducting sidewalk counseling at abortion clinics.
Gaworski suffered a heart attack in 1991 that left him in a condition similar to that of Terri Schiavo – with severe brain damage and dependent on a feeding tube for nourishment. For the next 12 years, the friars cared for Gaworski in their downtown St. Paul friary.
“Through his condition,” Brother John Kaspari said Tuesday from St. Paul, “we came to embrace others in similar states.”
The article then suggests that the Brothers, when faced with artificially prolonging life, decided to refuse medical treatment on behalf of their friend and leader. Unless I’m reading this quote wrong, they decided for him to stop further medical interventions and let him die. Here’s what the newspaper said:
Gaworski contracted pneumonia and died in 2003 at age 45.
“He would have required intubation to keep him alive,” Kaspari said. “We chose not to go that route. His lungs were full of fluid.”
Is he saying what I think he is saying?
I’m not questioning their decision but for a bunch of “culture of lifers” does this represent a degree of hypocrisy? I was stunned when I read this.””””
diggendude@68. Hypocrisy? Stunned to find those who profess do not follow to the letter of the religious law they profess? Preacher Jimmy Baker did not walk his talk. Preacher Jimmy Swagger did not walk his talk. Preacher Jesse Jackson did not walk his talk. WHY? Cause all people are human. Religious supression of humans doesn’t work for long. The face cards, sin, fear and guilt doesn’t work for long. The more you repress something, the more it rises. Contraception, abortion, right to die, right to life are not government’s business. And government should not trump all issues based on their religious status quo, pushing their religious platform on the masses. Our elected officials should not take the position to abridge the rights and freedoms they do not support due to their religious convictions. That does not mean setting aside properly based social order aside from what book they follow, be it the Koran, Catholic Bible, Christian Bible or any other religious book. Old thinking is not living today, they need to talk to today.
Michael Schiavo Slips into ‘Carnivorative State’
by Scott Ott
(2003-10-28) — Michael Schiavo, the Florida man fighting to have the feeding tube removed from his comatose wife, has fallen into a “persistent carnivorative state,” according to an unnamed family doctor.
“He’s unresponsive,” said one physician familiar with his case. “When you talk about the importance of human life or the effects of slow starvation on his wife, Terri, he just glazes over. He has no comprehension. I don’t think he could live more than 10 days cut off from the hope of a huge cash influx.”
However, Mr. Schiavo’s girlfriend insists he has more brain function than his behavior would indicate. She said he usually knows when other people are in the room and just this week she induced him to follow a $20 bill with his eyes.
“Terri’s desire was that Michael would never have to live without wealth or extramarital female companionship,” the unnamed girlfriend said.
Experts say few patients ever emerge from persistent carnivorative states because they’re totally dependent upon increasing quantities of liquid assets.
Sounds like he’s becoming a republican.
Say it ain’t so!
Oh wow,,,another chirping anonomo, a Doctor that wants to remain anonomo Un-named girfriend? Un-named doctor? Maybe they are republican anonomos, even trolls in our very midst, Unwilling to accept the experts that are named. Puzzzling philosophy!
Chee – You have to forgive Adriel. After finding his argument destroyed by the facts, all he has left is satire in poor taste. And as the days go on, we find the hypocrisy grows deeper. Robert Schindler made the same decision he’s now smearing Michael Schiavo for making.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/.....19,00.html
So now that’s Delay, Frist, the Schindlers and the Fransiscan monks who have all done the very same thing they claim to be against. How truly sad for them to be so blinded by their own hatred.
jcricket@091. Forgiving others is not my job. They have to ask for forgivness. I realize the tithing have been cut back since Bush let the ecomnomy go to hell and God is under-staffed, over-worked & trying to get to all those busy-bodies and hypocrites rounded up to forgive for “they know not what they do” takes time. Been so many meddling and minding Schiavo’s business I guess the least I can do is to help out in a small way. Adreil is forgiven.