Our good friend Stefan over at (un)Sound Politics is obsessing on military ballots again. My daughter’s itching to head to the beach, so I don’t really have the time or inclination to closely examine his “proof” at the moment, but I thought I should take a few minutes to reiterate a few facts.
Overseas military voters received their ballots in time.
Whether ballots were mailed out on the 6th or the 8th or the 10th or whatever, there have been no widespread reports of overseas military personnel who did not receive their ballots from WA state in time to cast their votes. This fact is confirmed by none other than Stars and Stripes:
Joe Hitt, spokesman for Fort Lewis in Washington, said none of the Army Reserve units currently deployed overseas have reported problems over missing or damaged ballots.
“It just seems to be something that’s being blown up in the press,” he said. “We haven’t heard any complaints about ballots.”
Overseas military turnout exactly matched KC turnout
83 percent of overseas military personnel who requested mail-in ballots from King County had their ballots counted in the November, 2004 election. This turn-out rate exactly matches that for King County at large. It is hard to argue that military personnel were disenfranchised when they voted in the same numbers as the rest of the county.
Move the fucking primary!
It’s no secret that due to the unusual lateness of our September primary, all WA counties struggle to get overseas ballots out in time to meet the federal deadline. Indeed, the number one election reform requested by county auditors and Sec. of State Sam Reed was to move the primary to June, or at the very latest, mid-August. And yet, Republican obstructionists like state Sen. Pam Roach have once again blocked just such a move. If Stefan cares more about protecting the franchise of our overseas military personnel than about scoring cheap political points, he should focus his considerable efforts on persuading legislators of both parties to enact this very simple and sensible reform.
Of course, Stefan’s main concern is scoring cheap political points, and his recent posts only reaffirm what I said months ago… that for partisans like him, the whole legally futile election contest was always more about weakening Ron Sims than it ever was about getting Dino Rossi into office. And there’s no question that Sims has been weakened by the constant barrage of attacks. Too bad for Stefan and his GOP buddies that all they could come up with to challenge Sims was a boneheaded candidate like David Irons, so unlikable that even his own mother won’t vote for him.
Since you were unwilling to look at his proof or case, you should have just let the post die there, Goldy.
Why are you so compelled to lay out a case when you don’t even know what you’re trying to refute? It sure is weak on your part to handle something this way.
Sheesh. I never knew Sound Politics caused you such distress…
Brent… do you actually read my posts? I said I didn’t have time to go into it at the moment.
But… the facts I laid out are completely independent of whether the ballots went out on 8th or 12th. The fact is, overseas military voters were not disenfranchised, and the best way to keep them from ever being disenfranchised is to move the primary, not bitch about whether or not some of the ballots missed a federal deadline.
And you know what… I wouldn’t even have read (u)SP today if his post hadn’t linked to me in the first place. So maybe you should ask Stefan why HA causes him such distress?
You said you didn’t “have time” to read them, but lay out a case anyway…
Interesting…
Defensive, are we? Good grief, the case is long over but we have problems to fix. I take both blogs with a grain of salt and make my own opinion, but I just can’t follow an argument that starts with reasoning like that.
Just read SS Minnow’s dispatches the week before Bridges’ decision that is if he hasn’t deleted them already. Minnow was wrong and Goldy was right and Minnow just can’t stand it. He has some nerve namecalling from his tony basement in Greenlake.
Minnow is the Baghdad Bob of WA state bloggers. He has no credibility.
3
Move the damn primary to June. Why do the Republicans block that if they care so much about making military votes count?
Goldy’s case is independent of Minnow’s “findings”.
Election officials are caught lying about when the ballots were mailed. If the ballots were received on time, why didn’t the officials just say that? “Yes, we got them in the mail late, but they arrived on time.” But that isn’t what they said.
I’m tired of relying on liars in the elections office who spend more time covering up their shoddy practices than actually running the office. Dean Logan should be fired.
This matters because this same group will be running the next election.
6
Sour grapes. Your candidate lost. Get over it.
Goldy – How ficking stupid do you think we are? How the hell can you write such a blatently false headline? You HAVE been on the Brian Suites show haven’t you? Ask him whether his ballot was even counted. Asshole!
Goldy’s case is hardly one at all. He’s unwilling to read his competition’s argument and then refute it, instead just spewing things said previously. In a debate, you cannot just lay out your case without pointing out inaccuracies of your competition, yet alone be unwilling to read the competition.
I’m all for primaries being moved back. I’m also for voter ID at the time of registering and at the time of voting. Why do democrats block ID?
Goldy @ 2 –
Just to clarify, you said “I don’t really have the time or inclination to closely examine…”
So, is the answer you cannot refute what he said, or could you please share with those of us who want to know why we shouldn’t believe what Stefan wrote today?
I want to factually know why one shouldn’t believe the research done over at SP. If you’re going to have a heading like, “Military Voters Were not Disenfranchised,” at least know the facts being debated.
I gotta run a check here on you delerious moonbats.
Are you comfortable with the way Christine Gregoire got into office? That is… you really believe that she got more LEGAL votes than Dino Rossi. Before you reply, do a reality check: If Dino Rossi got in the same way, would you still be saying “get over it”?
Brent, how much disenfranchisement could there possibly be when the total number of overseas votes (military and civilian) not counted by King County for being late is … 16 ballots?
Even if we make the improbable assumptions that:
1) All 16 ballots were military voters,
2) None of the 16 were delayed by the voters themselves, and
3) All 16 voted for Rossi,
all that means — AT MOST — is that Gregoire won by 117 votes instead of 133 votes.
But the TRUTH is that:
1) King County did not mail 1 single overseas ballot late,
2) King County bent over backwards for military voters, including e-mailing and faxing ballots,
3) Military voters who for any reason did not receive a ballot could vote by obtaining a Federal Write In Ballot from their unit’s Voting Assistance Officer,
4) Washington makes it easier for military voters to vote than any other state.
There was NO disenfranchisement of military voters. That’s a fucking Republican LIE! Those who didn’t vote, chose not to vote. It’s that simple.
Roger Rabbit – considering Reed accepts that ballots are being mailed late, why won’t you accept that it happens? It could cause problems next time, too – we need to make sure that it doesn’t happen, and be open and accountable about the entire process.
Reply to 10
“Are you comfortable with the way Christine Gregoire got into office?”
Yes, absolutely yes, because after spending $2 million on legal fees and getting their day in court the only thing the Republicans proved was the Gregoire won by 133 votes instead of 129 votes.
It seems the debate is about whether or not the ballots were sent out on time, not so much on the actual effect it may/may not have had on the election.
For me, it’s the explanations (or lack thereof) once again coming from KC Elections that is troubling. There wasn’t any deliberate wrongdoing going on, but the problems that were/are occurring weren’t explained to the public (or County Council, for that matter) in a very forthright manner. As I said before, this is Logan’s responsibility, and while he may be an expert in elections, he has a lot to learn about public/elected official relations. If the allegations over at SP are true, it’s another example of poor CYA on KC (and Logan’s) part.
Reply to 12
Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that King County mailed some ballots “late.” (Using the federal deadline of Oct. 8 as the definition of “late.”)
Nothing in Stefan’s article even refers to the fact that King County disqualified only 16 overseas ballots for being received late. This were not necessarily military ballots. They were not necessarily votes for Rossi. Nothing even links any of these ballots to the alleged late mailins. And these 16 disqualified ballots could not possibly have changed the outcome of the election.
Stefan focuses on King County and says nothing about the other 38 counties. Why? If other counties also mailed overseas ballots after Oct. 8, that would indicate the problem is the date of Washington’s primary, and not any dereliction by election officials, wouldn’t it?
Stefan is a long, long, long way from having made a case that any military voters were disenfranchised, deliberately or otherwise.
So, can anyone enlighten me as to why someone would oppose moving the primary to an earlier date? It’s often quoted as a source of problems and I’m not just asking the question rhetorically.
What I find ironic is that the neocons are still babbling about Brian Suites’ vote not being counted, or Logan this, KC that, instead of what the real issue of this post is about.
Why are the republicans, and specifically Pam “Black Flag” Roach motel is obstructing a measure to have the primaries earlier. Hell, that would solve the problem for KC getting the ballots out on time and, most importantly, allow our troops to get their ballots in time.
That, my friends, is the issue. When the Republicans address the simple issue of why they are obstructing our troops from getting their ballots, then we’ll be having meaningful dialogue. Until then, it’s just more hate mongering and divisive politics as usual from the right.
Oh, boy, I can’t wait for the usual suspects to imply that I’m Un-American, anti-troop, unpatriotic, or PBJ to provide links that will demonstrate where Dems are doing the same thing, somewhere else in the country instead of them addressing their problems within their own party right here at home.
Anyone wanna take bets on their response?
Reply to 16
My understanding is the Legislature didn’t change the primary date because the parties couldn’t agree on what the date should be.
Food for thought @ 16
Moving it up some is fine, but June is just too damn early – it means that election campaigns will effectively run for most of the year – ick!
I’ve heard that moving the primary earlier has something to do with the rules for fund raising by the incumbents. In all things, follow the money.
Again, I don’t care who those living oversees voted for. What is the problem is that the elections office said that all ballots were mailed by the deadline. This was a lie. A large amount were delivered to the delivery service a week late. No one knows when they were mailed. If the delivery date was unrealistic, or didn’t have an impact on the results, why didn’t the elections office just say so? Why did they find it necessary to lie about it?
These people are still in charge of elections! Why do we entrust them with such a valuable process?
Reply to 14
Jon, I’m not defending Logan or KCRE, and I don’t see Goldy doing that in this thread either. I think we can all agree KCRE (a) had problems, (b) hasn’t been forthright, (c) needs cleaning up. I’ve been saying for some time that someone besides Logan should be in charge. I support changing King County from an appointed KCRE director to an elected auditor.
But the topic of this thread is disenfranchisement of military voters. Stefan claims to have new information refuting KCRE’s claim that all military ballots were mailed on time. Even if he’s right, that doesn’t prove any military voters were disenfranchised.
First of all, any soldier who didn’t get his ballot by Nov. 2 could have requested a Federal Write In Ballot from his unit’s Voting Assistance Officer. If he didn’t, that’s his fault.
If a soldier received his ballot but didn’t mail it until after Nov. 2, that’s his fault.
If a soldier received his ballot but didn’t vote, that’s his fault.
Second, King County disqualified only 16 overseas/military ballots because they arrived late. These ballots had at least two weeks after Nov. 2 to get to KCRE. If they didn’t, that indicates problems in the mail system. That’s not KCRE’s fault.
Third, King County had a limited amount of time to print and mail over 650,000 absentee ballots. Stefan is making a big issue of ballots he says were mailed on Oct. 10 or Oct. 12 instead of Oct. 8. He wants to blame this on KCRE and Logan. But I say all this proves is that election workers don’t have enough time after the primary to mail 2/3 of a million absentee ballots, and the obvious solution for future elections is to change the primary date. That didn’t happen. Stefan should be criticizing the legislators responsible for that not happening. He isn’t. So I think it’s fair to accuse Stefan of playing partisan games by trying to blame everything on KCRE and deflect blame from GOP obstructionists in the Legislature. I say give credit where credit is due, and lay blame where the blame should lay. Replace Logan with someone who can get the job done, and move the primary date. That’s the answer.
And stop lying about military voters being disenfranchised, Stefan. That’s bullshit.
Comment on 19
An August primary date seems reasonable to me. Hot weather might keep some people away from the polls, but I think that’s more of a problem in other states. Yeah, August can be hot in eastern Washington. If the eastsiders don’t want an August primary, then the choices are June or keeping it in September. I don’t think July would be better than August. But even moving it up to the first week of September would give elections workers another week, and that extra week would help. Certainly it’s better than nothing.
Goldy,
I’m not wading into this argument other than to say that your perpetuation of the Irons family’s alleged personal issues was an irrelevant, low blow. He’s GOP and his sister is a Dem and their family clearly has issues with that. The original site that posted it was out of line, but your perpetuation is even more worthy of Hillary’s scorn as “politics of personal destruction.”
Even if Irons is a bonehead, is it even remotely possible that he could be worse than Ron Sims? There’s only one way to go when you’ve hit rock bottom…
Just a couple of observations.
Why are Liberals so prone to using foul language?
The issue is not whether the overseas voters got their ballot in time to vote. It is about Dean Logan lying to the public; again! But, of course, you don’t care about public officials lying because you KNOW that your accusations against President Bush are all trumped up.
Mark @ 22
No, you’re wrong. As your party claimed during the attempted personal destruction and subsequent impeachment of President Clinton, character matters.
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Their personal issues become public issues if they want to hold public office.
Your side started this culture of hate politics, it’s what you guys desperately wanted. Be careful of what you ask for, you just might get it.
@ 24.
Bush to Cheney on the election trail “That guy’s a real asshole.”
Cheney to Senator Lehey in the well of the Senate “Go fuck yourself.”
Bush to the TV cameras last week **flipping the cameras off** the international sign language of FUCK YOU!
Bob Novak to James Carville “That’s Bullshit!”
1st amendment rights protect the Republicans, too. Even your hypocritical statements.
Thanks for playing the atypical attack card from the right instead of providing substance.
GBS: I think you mean ‘typical’ :p
Anyways, @24, why do the righties always play the ‘swearword card’ when they’re losing an argument? Its pretty sad.
GBS @ 25: “No, you’re wrong. As your party claimed…
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Their personal issues become public issues if they want to hold public office.
Your side started this culture of hate politics, it’s what you guys desperately wanted.”
No, I am not wrong. I am totally entitled to say what I did.
If Irons participated in attacking people for their personal lives, then maybe turnabout is fair play. But then you sink yourselves (and the entire discussion) down to the lowest common denominator and right down into the gutter.
When Donna, rujax, lucy and others verbally vomit all over this blog, they show themselves to be cut from exactly the same cloth as those they condemn. Using the “but Mom, he did it first” defense doesn’t work in adult conversations.
Also… the GOP didn’t invent negative politics any more than Al Gore invented the Internet.
And just because I consider myself a (moderate) Republican, doesn’t mean that I think that everyone in the GOP — including those in power — is either correct or true to the party’s ideals. Are you willing to cast an equally critical eye to your party??
Maybe I should just call myself a “non-Democrat” and leave it at that.
Windie—@27–
Cuz we feel sometimes the only thing you can call a bunch of LEFTIST PINHEADED COCKSUCKERS just that….LEFTIST PINHEADED COCKSUCKERS. Is that so difficult for you to comprehend?
GBS @25 – Just to set the record straight… Bill Clinton was impeached and disbarred, NOT because he got BJs in the Oval Office, but because he lied to a Grand Jury in an attempt to conceal a pattern of predatory sexual behavior in connection with a felony assault case that he later settled for $800,000.
Predatory sexual behavior – like you going and fucking yourself?
Moonbats – “Educate” me please. I notice some of you like to use the word “Neocon(s)” to describe us. From the usage context, I assume it’s a slam, but it’s lost on me.
Since most of you never went to university nor studied a foreign language, the word “neo” is from Greek meaning “new”. So you’re saying “new conservative”. How is that a slam? What does it mean?
X @ 31 – No, like attacking young women and raping them.
military ballots are requested on a per election basis. Many
mail-in ballots are sent on an ongoing basis. Therefore, the military ballots ought to have a much higher return rate than the partially unsolicited general vote by mail. The fact that the military ballots didn’t have a higher rate of return is in fact evidence that something happened to lower the expected turnout.
From the usage context, I assume it’s a slam, but it’s lost on me.
Right, and the Nazi’s wouldn’t consider being called “Nazi” a slam either.
This military voting thing is old news and has been proven not to have occurred. Looks like the Reps stole another election in Ohio, though.
GBS @ 24:
The bit about Bush flipping someone off has been proven to be a photoshopped fake. Yes, a writer in Minneapolis fell for it. Maybe the left needs to learn how to do a little research.
Mark the Redneck @30, No he did not lie to the grand jury, he lied to the american public. He was convicted because it was a bj.
Look, before that testemony, he was given a list of definitions for use during testemony. In that definition the word sex was specifically defined, and that definition specifically did not incude bj’s. He was asked if he had sex. You do not get to clarify questions on the witness stand. Nor do you get to say more than yes or no.
Yes, some congressmen were offended because it does sound like a lie, but it occurs to me to wonder, since the prosecution KNEW it was a bj before asking that question, why they specifically never asked if he recieved a bj when they knew he legaly could not say, ‘no according to the definition we are using here, but i did get a bj’ All he could say was no. If he had said yes that would have been a lie.
20
Well Janet, just because Sharkansky says something contrary to what King County said, doesn’t mean KC is lying. Maybe Sharkansky is lying. Wouldn’t be the first time. I still remember his bullshit about KING 5 TV getting information as a result of Stefan’s public records request.
22
I don’t see what your beef is. I wouldn’t vote for MY siblings.
23
To answer your question, looking at what the GOP has become, just about any Republican would be worse than Sims.
Sharansky added the “k” so he would sound tougher. You never know when the op-ed guy at the Wall Street Journal may be looking for new talent!
Reply to 24
“Why are Liberals so prone to using foul language?”
1. Because right-wing assholes call us “commies,” “traitors,” et al. and we’re tired of it.
2. Because right-wingers are assholes.
3. Because this is a free country and we can talk any fucking way we want to.
4. Because reading this board is a voluntary activity, and if you don’t like the language here, you have the option to leave.
5. Because right-wingers are assholes.
Redneck know it all @ 32
Fuck you.
Bill@38 – Wow. That’s one of the best spins I’ve ever seen. Telling truth is lying, and lying is being honest.
I gotta use this. Can I?
Reply to 24 (continued)
So who’s defending Logan? I don’t see anyone defending Logan. Goldy didn’t even mention Logan. So why are you right-wing assholes bringing up Logan instead of discussing the topic — to wit: whether military voters were disenfranchised.
Comment on 25
I agree with you GBS, it’s way past time we made right-wing assholes swallow their own medicine. When we tried polite, they kicked us in the shins. Rough talk is the only language these assholes understand.
Mark @ 28
When Sharkansky’s minions overrun this site testing their secondhand “knowledge” mixed with hate, I suppose you think that people who disagree should just take it like a battered spouse.
Uhhh. no.. Sorry.
And for the millionth time Al Gore NEVER said he invented the internet. Sheesh.
Reply to 28
“When Donna, rujax, lucy and others verbally vomit all over this blog, they show themselves to be cut from exactly the same cloth as those they condemn.”
Yep, you’ve figured us out, Mark. To deal with rats, we have to go in the sewer with them.
Redneck Mark,
I notice some of you like to use the word “Neocon(s)” to describe us. From the usage context, I assume it’s a slam, but it’s lost on me.
It is not necessary a slam (that depends entirely on how you take it).
“Since most of you never went to university nor studied a foreign language, the word “neo” is from Greek meaning “new”.”
Don’t be so sure of that. There are a handful of PhD’s hanging out, several JDs (four that I can think of, off hand), and plenty of people with other college degrees that regularly contribute to this forum. The folks apparently lacking college degrees tend to be redneck conservatives. . . .
“So you’re saying “new conservative”. How is that a slam? What does it mean?”
In fact, neoconservative is commonly and properly used in academia and by the press when refering to the political philosophy of certain think tanks that fall along the lines of PNAC. It is not the least bit perjorative in that sense.
Mark TR @45 ok, lets make up a theoretical for example. If I put you on a witness stand, and say before you answer the next question, the definition of ‘cheating on taxes’ is claiming any exemptions at all. I will give you that definition out of the hearing of the jury. Also remember your in court as a witness because I am investigating allegation that you made to much noise one night at a party.
Now, with a simple yes or no, and remember lieing here gets you a purjury charge and you are not allowed to say anything but yes or no, did you cheat on your taxes this year?
JC Bob @ 24
“Why are Liberals so prone to using foul language?”
Fuck you, Bob. There are liberals and conservatives on this blog that use “foul language.”
You have chosen to come to Goldy’s blog, and he has laid down the rules: “foul language” is fair game.
This blog is edgy. . . It was long before your sorry ass showed up, and will be long after you go away.
If you don’t like it, march you ass over to http://www.blogging-with-puritans.org. There is low tolerance for language policing here.
Mark Redneck @ 32
“Neocon” is a term the “new conservatives” coined to describe themselves. Don’t worry Mark Redneck, nobody on HA takes you for a “neocon.” You’re what’s known as a “paleo-conservative” or paleocon for short.
Are you by any chance related to the Viking plunderer known as Mark of the Red Neck?
34, yeah, they didn’t vote.
37, oh you mean like the photoshopped fake of Kerry with Jane Fonda? I’m surprised. I thought only Republicans pulled shit like that!
Bottom line mark, the prosecutors specifically defined the term sex to mean penetrative sex only. They asked if he did that only. He did not and noone claimes he did. The never once asked about bj’s. Where is the lie.
Now when he went on tv and told america that he ‘never had sex with that woman’, he was not using that definition and was lying his ass off.
There is an interesting Chicago Tribune article on military voting here:
Hmmm. . .
Mark The Redneck,
“Neocon” is pejorative on this site and others like it (…though to Goldy’s credit I am not quite sure there are others like it).
Neoconservative was one of the self-titles given a number of people, including National Review founder W F Buckley, Jr. An explanation can be found here.
In the pejorative sense used on this site, neocon means “anyone we feel like jeering derisively at.” A secondary usage (apparently intended as a pejorative, but fails to take into account the sneered at person’s viewpoint) is “anybody related to somebody who voted for GWB.”
Now, as to your Foxworthy-ness…
You could be a neocon if:
You disagree with anyone on this board from a left-ish perspective.
You espouse any policy currently in vogue within the Bush administration.
You think Goldy needs to lighten up.
Donnageddon makes you cringe, and you haven’t even read the comment.
Dammit. I hate it when Goldy is on vacation and my comment goes into the spam filter…
Doin’ time in purgatory…
Yeah well it’s crowded in purgatory …
58
Hmmm that’s interesting dj, the article says:
“Within the Military Postal Service Agency, ballots have priority for overseas shipment …. On the domestic side, the U.S. Postal Service has promised to ship outgoing and incoming ballots via overnight mail ….”
Sooooo … military voters didn’t even have to ask for a Federal Write In Ballot. It was handed to them. So what’s they’re excuse for not voting? Blame King County.
RR @ 61
Yup. Maybe if the Minnow holds his breath and clenches his fists until his face turns read, it will all become King County’s fault.
I wonder how many of the “few dozen” ballots that didn’t show up in Iraq are from li’l ol’ King County?
Probably none.
I have to say: at this point, there’s nothing wrong with weakening Ron Sims. His pursuit of the Southwest Airlines move to Boeing field is just insiped. I want him out of office over this.
Dwight Pelz has a great quote on this. From today’s P-I:
( http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.....est05.html )
King County Councilman Dwight Pelz said that would be a waste.
“If someone said, ‘Let’s study putting a firecracker factory in the middle of Seattle Center,’ I’d say, no, let’s not,” Pelz said. “There are certain ideas that you don’t need to study. This is a bad idea.”
And of course I meant to spell ‘insipid’ correctly. Perhaps this had to with too much ‘sipping’ at our Friday work party. :)
Many military members may have receive their ballots one day later than they thought they were going to get it. Many of them will then lose it, some will forget about it, and some of them will send them in. I got I don’t know how many ballots overseas, and lost or forgot most of them. Meaningless, meaningless.
What is really important is not whether soldiers can vote in a timely manner, but whether they are being SHOT AT for no reason whatsoever. But the Republicans don’t want to bring that up…
Kwazy Wabbit@53 “Paleo-Con”. ROTFLMAO. Maybe you not so Kwazy after all. Dat funny.
@ 63: While I’m completely against Southwest gaining competitive advantage by tax payer funded fiat and through a baloney redirection of regional transportation plans, and while I agree with Pelz regarding the notion of entertaining doing that, I don’t agree that weakening Sims is a good idea. The GOP is in full attack mode, and we sure don’t need that idiot Irons in office. Sims is the incumbent, and no real viable D alternative has launched a campaign. For those reasons I will support Sims, even though I really wish he’d drop the kow-tow to Southwest, and tell them to get bent.
I’m not sure why he’s been responding to them the way he has; maybe he really thinks he has some kind of an obligation to treat their request seriously, since it is a public airport. Too bad.
Can you moonbats go back to my comment @10? Only Kwazy Wabbit replied. I’d luv to know what rest of you fink.
RedMark – the answers are Yes and No.
Last troll on Clinton… I can only hope that the Enabler in Chief runs for President in 08. She will ensure 8 more years of GOP control, and will continue DemAss slide to oblivion.
RedMark – just to clarify… Am I “comfortable” with the way Gregoire “got in”. – Yes. Would I be saying “get over it” if Rossi had “got in” – No. But that’s the difference between being you and being me. It’s not a criminal difference, it’s not a social difference, it’s merely a difference of opinion. And I would expect you to be saying “get over it” if Rossi had “got in”.
In short, Get over it!
Clueless @48 – The exact quote was in a March 1999 interview with Wolf Blitzer, where Algore said, “During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet.”
Also, if I remember right, didn’t he also suggest that the song by The Beatles “Love Me Do” being about him and Tipper?
MarkyMark – I don’t see a Dem slide coming, but I have observed a Dem BACKLASH coming. History tells us that the pendulum swings both ways. Be careful who you piss off, it may be your neighbor…
(And Marky, I knos that you know in your heart that we should not be in Iraq. You can admit it here. You’re among friends.)
Mark —- you are a comedian after all! And Ben Franklin once said “Revolution is a thirsty business”
What does any of this have to do with current history?
Fire – C’mon, look at the data. Since Newt led the revolution in 1994, Dems have been in decline. There has been a steady erosion of DemAss control of state legislatures and governorships. GWB won and was re-elected despite the best efforts of Dems to change history and undermine The Constitution. And if/when you’re foolish enough to nominate the Enabler In Chief, she will lose by at least 15 points as The People come out of the woodwork to defeat the most divisive figure in the history of Mukin politics.
For you moonbats ranting about SoufWest Airlines… they’re charged $14.15 per passenger when they land at SeaTac. They claim the going rate is more like $4 to $5 per passenger. So what’s wrong with them rejecting SeaTac and looking to provide their customers with better value? They’re trying to help US… the people who fly on those beautiful efficent 737s.
@ 76: Not to fly to Seattle it isn’t $5. If they want to sell tickets to fly to Nashville, let them, but they can pound sand if they want to rearrange our local transporation planning to suit their Wal-Mart model of air travel. Airline tickets, even airline tickets to and from SeaTac, are way cheap if you bother to shop around for ten minutes. Southwest can leave our market, I say good riddence. No doubt someone will be happy to take over the gates they currently operate at SeaTac, and will be happy to compete in the marketplace without trying to rearrange it to suit their model.
p.s. They are not charged $14.15 today, that’s a projection figure. A lot of planning went into the commitment to build the third runway, and doing other things like using Boeing Field was considered and rejected back when that planning was complete (in controversy, but its a done deal now).
Maybe you moonbats can ‘splain something else to me. Why do you hate corporations who try to provide better value to you as customer? Pilot WUTFOBF hates both Southwest and WalMart. Why? I don’t get it. Why don’t you want to get best value for your money?
Wait… does that also explain why you like the gas tax?
Ah… it all fits doesn’t it.
Markymark – I wouldn’t bet the farm on it. Let’s look at Bushies record….
– Nearly 2000 dead in a war he lied to get us into
– 40 million (or more) Americans without health insurance
– 36 million (or more) Americans living under the poverty level
– stock market still lower than when Bush took office
– most of the 911 hijackers are Saudi, so Bush leads the King into his house by holding his hand
– borders to Mexico and Canada not secure
– billions of dollars to pharmaceutical companies, and we still can’t afford OTC drugs
– billions of dollars to “energy cartel” companies, Why?
– the list goes on = Roger Rabbit has more if you ask him…
Fire – Let’s take points one by one:
GWB did not “Lie”. There was bad intelligence. There’s a difference. A lie is an intent to deceive, like when WJC lied to the grand jury. In this case. WJC, ACG, HRC, JFK and Ted The Swimmer and numerous other libs also said Saddam was a threat.
NO ONE in Murka is without health care. ANYONE can go to ER and get treatment. In fact those of you in tax district that supports VMC are paying the bills to support these people. You are very generous.
GWB inherited an economy that was in recession from WJC. ALL economists agree that the economy was in recession in April of 1999. That’s fact, not opinion. Add 9/11 to the mix and it’s amazing that we aren’t in deep recession.
I agree with you on Saudi’s. They are evil. They are not our friends. Their time will come.
I agree on borders. We need Israel style wall.
I’m all for drug companies and energy companies being fairly compensated for the work they do. Both industries have to plow mountains of money into research and discovery. That costs money. If we cut off their money, the flow of products will stop. And then we’re in deep trouble.
One of the things I find fascinating about the liberal mind is that you seem to believe that oppression comes from corporations and liberty comes from government. In fact, the opposite is true.
@ 79: When you consider the WHOLE cost, not just the price paid at the ticket counter, it is not a better value. I don’t want my tax dollars spread hither and to just because some company doesn’t like the deal that every other airline seems able to work with. Same goes for WalMart, who have to subsidize health care for their workers by directing them to public assistance.
Why do morons like you worship the notion that the market place exists in a vacuum; that all that is good comes from greedy business operations, rather than an integrated approach to commerce and community?
Oh marky you are so wrong, it makes me want to shit…
Are you comfortable with the way the war is going? Do you really believe we will end up with a “democratic Iraq”?
Are you comfortable with paying for “everyones” health insurance? Wouldn’t it be better for everyone to pay for their own?
Are you comfortable with where the economy is? Have you made any money on the market in the last 4.5 years?
Are you saying we need to subsidize the drug companies? Have you looked at their stock prices recently?
Are you comfortable subsidizing the energy companies? Really?
PWUTFOBF – Every airline seems to be able to deal with? Like UAL, NWA, DAL and AA who are in BANKRUPTCY?
I “worship” free market economics because it works. I despise planned economies because the fail every time they’re tried. Go to USSR and look around at the wreckage if you don’t believe me.
Where does the interstate highway system fit into your ideological colored glasses? Isn’t that an example of planning as a community? Moron.
Fire
On Iraq… I’m glad we’re freeing people from an asshole dictator, and setting up an example of freedom. Hopefully, it will spread, and there will be real lasting peace over there. Certainly, Jimmy Carter style “peace treaties” are a demonstrable failure… the data is clear isn’t it?
On health care. Yup. I agree. Let’s end health insurance. But health care just like you buy roof repairs and engine overhauls. Absolutely.
I’ve made a shitload of money. In fact, my money makes more money than I do.
“Subsidize” drug companies? WTF are you talking about? Are taxpayer dollars going to drug companies? I don’t think so. If you wanna bitch about subsidies, how ’bout you start with your tax dollars going to the GD stadiums in Seattle so the losers of the world can watch millionaires play kids games?
“Subsidize” energy companies? WTF are you talking about? Are taxpayer dollars going to oil companies? I don’t thinks so. Costs lotta gd money to explore, drill, extract, transport, process and deliver gas. They earn every penny they get.
PWUTFOBF @ 84 – WTF do interstate highways have to do with this . Answer my question or STFU.
Mark – Really? You are “glad we’re freeing people from an asshole dictator, and setting up an example of freedom.” I want some of what you are smokin… (you sound so Kennedy-esque) When this ends up like Panama, Philipines, Vietnam, Iran, Haiti, El Salvador, etc, I expect you to apologize.
– Most people would be GLAD to buy their own health insurance, if only the jobs weren’t minimum wage…
– Yes tax money is going to drug companies. You didn’nt know that?
– Yes tax money is going to “energy” companies. You didn’t know that?
Mark – useless, useless…
– “I’m glad we’re freeing people from an asshole dictator, and setting up an example of freedom. Hopefully, it will spread, and there will be real lasting peace over there. (you owe me a beer when, and if, this ever happens)
On health care. Yup. I agree. Let’s end health insurance. But health care just like you buy roof repairs and engine overhauls. Absolutely. (so fuck anyone who doesnt’t have money for health insurance? is that the deal?}
I’ve made a shitload of money. In fact, my money makes more money than I do. (well just as long as YOU make money)
Subsidize” drug companies? WTF are you talking about? (yeah, you didn’t know this?)
Subsidize” energy companies? WTF are you talking about? Are taxpayer dollars going to oil companies? (yeah, you didn’t know this?)
Mark The Redneck @81
One of the things I find fascinating about the liberal mind is that you seem to believe that oppression comes from corporations and liberty comes from government. In fact, the opposite is true.
Um, no…such a ridiculous statement obviates any realistic perspective from you. Reality: The opposite is not true, as liberty cannot come from a corporation, no matter how indemnified you are…
fire_one @83
Are you comfortable with where the economy is? Have you made any money on the market in the last 4.5 years?
Uh, yes. Quite a bit, actually…
hey marks, I wasn’t talking to you, but, as long as YOU are making money… guess it sucks to be you….. (or Mark the Redneck)
fire_one @90
I never understand it when somebody claims they are not talking to somebody on a blog comment thread…
What I meant to intone without any weird overtones (if such could ever effectively emanate from my fingertips) is that the two of you are wrong on each attempted point.
@ 87: Why should I STFU? I’m not going to connect the dots for a moron who probably thinks a “free market” is really cost free and who fails to recognize the roll of community in commerce.
66
Why thank you. :D Wish I could say that I thought of it. But I didn’t. That term has been around for a while.
Mark the redneck @ 10
“Are you comfortable with the way Christine Gregoire got into office?”
No. I would have liked it better if she won by a larger margin. On the other hand, the fact that the race was so close relative to the presidental election in WA made me suspicious that Republicans were up to no good. No evidence of systematic GOP election fraud (or Democratic election fraud, for that matter) has been uncovered, so I accept it as a close election.
“That is� you really believe that she got more LEGAL votes than Dino Rossi.”
What’s the matter Redneck Mark? Didn’t you follow the election contest trial? The Democratic expert witness Mark Handcock did a proportional deduction analysis of the illegal votes, with and without adjusting for the sex composition of the illegal voters. The result was that there is near certainty (using the Republican’s proposed methodology) that Gregoire got the most legal votes. I believe the certainty was stated as “there is a one in ten thousand chance that Rossi really won the election.”
Judge Bridges even mentioned that the analyses suggest that Gregoire got the most legal votes in his oral ruling.
So, yes, by the best evidence that all sides could muster up, Gregoire certainly got the most legal votes.
dj @94
The result was that there is near certainty (using the Republican’s proposed methodology) that Gregoire got the most legal votes. I believe the certainty was stated as “there is a one in ten thousand chance that Rossi really won the election.”
I did not pay attention, so did that really occur?
Not that I …. oh hell…whatever…
Marky Mark: Whatever gave you the notion that corporations don’t plan? If they are planning for themselves why shoudn’t we plan for ourselves? People like you think like 8th graders.
harry poon @101
Which mark are you trying to hit?
friggin’ confusing, ain’t it…
Brent @9,10…
I’m on fucking vacation for Christ’s sake, and rather than spend the entire day calling KC Elections and the SOS and the DOJ to either verify or refute Stefan’s analysis, I decided to spend the day with my daughter, on the beach. Is that okay with you, asshole? All the work I put into this, have you ever bothered to buy me a beer?
My facts are the facts — unrelated and unchanged by Stefan’s analysis — and are intended to provide some perspective. And as Stefan has noted in his most recent entry, another blogger is working this issue, and I leave it in his/her capable hands. I’ll point you towards it when it is posted.
marks @ 99
I did not pay attention, so did that really occur?
It did. Handcock did a proportional analysis using the combined GOP and Democratic data sets for his testimony during the second week of the trial. The final data were very close to what Judge Bridges accepted. From a Monte Carlo analysis (repeated simulations of proportional deduction), he testified that Rossi won one in ten thousand elections.
If you read Bridges oral ruling (available at the SoS web site), Bridges rejects the proportional deduction method (i.e. the GOP lost the Frye hearing), but stated that if he had allowed it, the expert witness testimony suggested that Gregoire would have prevailed.
Goldy @ 104 –
You’re on vacation….. Fly kites. Dig holes in the sand. Don’t pay attention to the jerks here that are trying to yank your chain.
Relax and recharge.
89
“On Iraq… I’m glad we’re freeing people from an asshole dictator, and setting up an example of freedom. Hopefully, it will spread, and there will be real lasting peace over there. Certainly, Jimmy Carter style ‘peace treaties’ are a demonstrable failure… the data is clear isn’t it?”
Sigh. Where to begin. (1) It’s easy to feel good about “freeing” foreigners from an “evil dictator” when you’re not the one dying for their “freedom.” (2) What example of “freedom” are we setting? The average Iraqi isn’t safe in his own hovel let alone on any street. He doesn’t have electricity or drinking water. There are no jobs or schools. Nothing is functioning in that country. The effective government of his country is a foreign occupying military power that daily guns down Iraqis. You call that “freedom”? (3) There won’t be democracy in Iraq. There will be factional strife accompanied by much bloodletting followed by a dictatorship imposed by whichever faction gets the upper hand. Iraq isn’t a nation, it’s three tribes who don’t get along. Tribal societies don’t become a nation or democracy because foreigners with guns come in and tell them to. (4) Too bad you learned nothing from Jimmy Carter’s experiences. See (3) above.
“On health care. Yup. I agree. Let’s end health insurance. But health care just like you buy roof repairs and engine overhauls. Absolutely.”
Let’s start with the definition of “insurance.” The insurance concept consists of spreading large risks among many people by pooling their resources. You can insure your $250,000 house against fire for $500 a year because fewer than 1 of 500 houses burns down every year. All of us can afford $500 a year, but few of us can afford to lose $250,000, so everyone benefits from this scheme.
Mark, if you’re determined to go it alone, then I hope you’re very, very rich. I’ll tell you why. I once met a guy who lost his job and health insurance because his employer went out of business. A week later his wife collapsed from a blood clot in the brain. She died without regaining consciousness after laying in a coma for 3 years. She racked up over $2 million of medical expenses. Can you comfortably pay that kind of expense, Mark? This guy’s life changed in less time than it takes to snap your fingers. That’s what insurance is for, and he didn’t have any, and it was devastating. Needless to say, Medicaid paid most of her medical bills, but you’re against that too, aren’t you? My point is, Mark, your ideas may work fine for you but please don’t impose them on the rest of us.
“I’ve made a shitload of money. In fact, my money makes more money than I do.”
Lucky you. Now let’s examine your Health Plan For America. You’re telling us, “The solution to your health care needs is go out and make a shitload of money.” But the fact is most people can’t make a shitload of money, no matter how hard they try. See discussion above about “insurance.” I don’t want your health plan. It doesn’t work for me. So keep it to yourself, don’t impose it on my family or the whole country.
“Subsidize” drug companies? WTF are you talking about? Are taxpayer dollars going to drug companies? I don’t think so.”
What do you think Bush’s $540 billion Medicare prescription drug program is? Do you really think that money is going into the pockets of senior citizens? You’re pretty damned naive if you do. Let me ask you this: Why aren’t senior citizens rushing to sign up? I’ll tell you why, because there’s very little in it for them besides a lot of paperwork, that’s why. Mark, 90% of that money is pure subsidy to the pharmaceutical and insurance industries, who strangely enough, happen to be the GOP’s two largest contributors. That was nothing but a gift of taxpayer money to Bush’s corporate sponsors.
Let me also say something about American business at this juncture. For all this talk about a “free market,” the truth is that the last thing Republican businessmen want is competition. Usually their foremost objective is to eliminate competition so they can charge monopoly prices. The reason Bush’s prescription drug legislation makes it illegal for senior citizens to buy drugs in Canada at discount prices is to protect Big Pharma’s profits. Bush’s cabinet is full of ex-CEOs but has no one with any experience competing in a free market. Every single one of those ex-CEOs ran companies that lived off the government via subsidies, tax breaks, and government contracts. That’s what I said — not one of them ran a company that operated in a competitive environment. The ex-CEOs running our government know next to nothing about competition or free markets.
“If you wanna bitch about subsidies, how ’bout you start with your tax dollars going to the GD stadiums in Seattle so the losers of the world can watch millionaires play kids games?”
I agree there’s something seriously wrong with a political system that produces outcomes like this. Seattle spent more on sports stadiums than on its schools. A lot of Seattleites didn’t want it that way. It’s evidence of how thoroughly our political system is corrupted by money and corporate power, regardless of which political party is nominally running things.
“’Subsidize’ energy companies? WTF are you talking about? Are taxpayer dollars going to oil companies?”
Yes — billions and billions of dollars of taxpayer paid subsidies are going to oil companies.
“I don’t thinks so.”
Read the fucking energy bill.
“Costs lotta gd money to explore, drill, extract, transport, process and deliver gas. They earn every penny they get.”
The oil industry is the most profitable industry in the history of the world. The biggest problem the oil industry faces is finding ways to invest their profits, because there simply is not any other industry as profitable as oil. So they MUST invest in their own indusry or accept lower returns on their capital. It does cost a lot of money to explore, drill, extract, etc., but they have the money and then some. Crude oil extraction alone, at today’s prices, produces gross revenues of $1.7 trillion a year (28 billion bbl x $61). That’s enough money to build 425 offshore drilling platforms costing $4 billion each every year. Of course the industry doesn’t build that many, in that price range, they build 1 or 2 every 5 years. As for earning every penny they get, in Saudi Arabia production costs average $1.50 a barrel, in Alaska about $12 to $15 per barrel. If they’re getting over $60 a barrel, they’re doing pretty damn well. What other business can you think of where three-fourths of the gross receipts are pure profit?
Sorry Wabbit – You need to look at actual data. THere isn’t a corporation in the world that has 75% profit rate. None. Never has been. Never will be.
In 2004, XOM made 25B on sales of about $300B. Net profit was 8.4%, not 75% as you suggest.
Too much rich food and alcohol bought by the “shitload” of money Redneck has made has calcified his brain.
“During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet.”
He did take an “initiative” for funding NSFnet which arguably was a crucial step in commercializing the internet. In a world of soundbites he could have just a little more precise.
Of course this was turned into “inventing” which was a cute soundbite for morons like you.
108
Explain to me how oil extracted for $1.50 a barrel and sold for $60 a barrel doesn’t produce a 75% profit? What you’re missing is that most producer countries have nationalized their oil industries and are taking the bulk of the profits for themselves. Exxon-Mobil still pumps oil in Saudi Arabia, but these days they do it as hired oil rig hands. But even so, the oil industry is extremely profitable and is the last industry on earth in need of taxpayer subsidies.
However, Redneck, if you feel the poor exploited oil companies are being deprived of the just due, feel free to offer to pay $5 a gallon instead of $2.50 a gallon the next time you fill up. All in the name of making sure Exxon-Mobil gets a fair ROE.
Comment on 109
What became the internet was started by a handful of computer professionals. It then grew into a DoD communication network. Al Gore did, in fact, make a key contribution to enabling the nascent internet’s transformation into a societal means of communication at a crucial stage of its evolution from a plaything into a world-wide network.
Let’s put it this way, Al Gore’s contribution to the creation of the internet was a hell of a lot bigger than George W. Bush’s.
Wabbit @ 110 – Oil sells for $60/bbl because that’s what it’s worth. That’s what people are willing to pay. OPEC knows the price that maximizes revenue, and they control production to achieve that price. It’s how commodity markets work.
WTF are you talking about with “taxpayer subsidies” to oil, Boeing, Chrysler, pharms, etc? There is not a tax that is levied by the government that goes to any of these companies. None. Zero. Or do you think that paying for products is a “subsidy”.
Wabbit @ 113 – Neither Algore nor GWB did anything to create the internet. Geez…
re .02: There isn’t a dimes’ difference.
Oh really, Harry? Did you bother to read what I wrote? You are welcome to whatever delusional state you decide you want to live in life, but don’t drag me into it…
This whole Military wasn’t disenfranchised is a bunch of crap. I have talked to too many active military people to believe otherwise. The reason is always the same,”never receive my ballot it time” or ” I never received a ballot”. I told them that they should all try to register in republican counties the next time around.
Doofus @ 118
register in republican counties the next time around.
Where they don’t bother to match signatures on provisional ballots.
119
At least they account for all their provisionals on the first count… unlike donk counties who just happen to conveniently find them on the 2nd and 3rd recounts.
Dear Mark the Redneck Moonbat-Caller,
Here’s why this Moonbat doesn’t want Southwest Airlines flying out of Boeing field.
– Many more jets would be flying low over downtown and peoples’ houses.
– The traffic near downtown would be even more terrible.
– Sea-Tac would lose the money, which has plusses and minuses, but mostly minuses.
Here’s what I also don’t like about Wal-Mart:
– They are one of the corporate leaders in maximizing shareholder value at the cost of employee benefits. Compare Sam’s Club to CostCo, but then look at the criticism CostCo is getting lately — for paying their employees well.
Heath
And how does King county verify the signatures of dead people?
Rufus@122: KCEC implemented FM, and the second word is Magic!
Rufus & Puddybud,
I thought Dean Logan hired a mystic to hold seances…
Marks@124: KCEC at lunch time: I thought I heard Rod Serling…