In arguing in support of I-1000, I’ve often asked people to look at the experiences in Oregon to see how it’s been an effective law. Now that the State Department of Health has released draft limits for medical marijuana patients that closely mimic Oregon’s limits, I think we should again look to Oregon to make a comparison. I’m cautiously optimistic that these limits will provide some level of protection for the patients, but there are certainly some problems that will need to be resolved at the next hearing in Tumwater on Monday, August 25. In the meantime, I understand that a lawsuit will be filed this week against the Department of Health over the fact that they ignored the testimony from medical professionals in arriving at the limit. I’ll post more on that as more information becomes available.
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Lee,
Could you please clarify what form of marijuana is covered by this bill? Would it make any GVM (police name for green vegetable matter derived from a marijuana plant) legal?? Are there any controls on the THC content of the plant or on how the plant is processed?
Also, in another thread you stated that marinol is much more expensive3 than marijuana. Based on this link, a monthly supply of GVM would be $514 vs. $678 for the pure THC.
The same site also collected numerpus pro and cons about the use of GVM vs. THC for therapy. The main point is that no impure substance is ever approved as a medicine by the FDA. This is a major reason “MM” does not makes sense even if its is a safe way of delivering THC.
Of course all this would be moot if the friggin stuff were just legalized!
@1
Could you please clarify what form of marijuana is covered by this bill?
All forms are covered.
Would it make any GVM (police name for green vegetable matter derived from a marijuana plant) legal??
Yeah, GVM is such a common acronym that when you type it into Google, the first thing to come up are your own comments from HorsesAss. Exactly why are you using police terminology in an attempt to discuss the science of something?
Are there any controls on the THC content of the plant or on how the plant is processed?
No, but in an ideal system where marijuana can be sold in authorized outlets, there should be.
Also, in another thread you stated that marinol is much more expensive3 than marijuana. Based on this link, a monthly supply of GVM would be $514 vs. $678 for the pure THC.
That site’s a little off. A 30 gram supply can most likely be gotten for $350. But for people who grow it themselves, they obviously don’t have to pay for it, just for the equipment to grow it (which can be pricey).
The same site also collected numerpus pro and cons about the use of GVM vs. THC for therapy.
Again, if you want to be taken seriously, you should probably stop using the term GVM. If you want to discuss science, using a police term with no real meaning doesn’t exactly carry much weight.
The main point is that no impure substance is ever approved as a medicine by the FDA.
And none should. But that does not mean that people can’t get medical marijuana from marijuana. And that does not mean that people can’t have a medical need for marijuana.
This is a major reason “MM” does not makes sense even if its is a safe way of delivering THC.
Absolutely not. It makes sense to the people who benefit from it. If whenever I wanted to take aspirin, I coated it in peanut butter and caramel, the aspirin would still work even though that particular concoction isn’t approved by the FDA. The fact that there are more pure ways to ingest THC does not invalidate all the other ways to ingest THC. And as I’ve explained a number of times already, smoking marijuana (as opposed to taking a Marinol tablet) allows for the THC to take effect much quicker.
I’m with Lee on this one: marijuana should be made legal immediately.
PI
I support legalizing marijuana, but that is not the same thing as making “medical marijuana” legal.
First Lee is upset about my use of the ABBR GVM. I use the term to distinguish the impure green vegetable matter, a term used by police to describe plant material what they suspect to be marijuana. The police, of course, need to have the GVM assayed before they know it is real marijuana. The police problem is also a problem for any physician.
Medical marijuana laws create a bad precedent for the practice of medicine. Put another way, aspirin was originally made from white willow bark. Suppose Bayer decided it wanted to sell WWB? Wouldn’t you expect the government to regulate the sale of willow bark as a medicine? BTW, nightshade contains digitalis, an important heart drug .. should physicians prescribe that too?
Lee argues that the GVM form of medical marijuana ought to be prescribeable because Marinol, the commercial pure form of the major ingredient, THC, in marijuana, is somehow less effective than the weed itself. This obviously can only be true if weed contains other undefined ingredients. Physicians, however, are not allowed to prescribe unknown agents.
He also says that people should be allowed to buy GVM marijuana, as opposed to Marinol, because smoking is more effective than other ways of taking THC. While I have read this claim, I am not sure there is objective data to support the claim and suspect that if tyhe claim is true, it would be other ways of taking marinol as well.
Again, the weirdness here is that the MM issue would not exist if we just made this fucking stuff legal and then regulated it the way we do other controversial products .. from oysters to tobacco! Then docs could tell patients to smoke a reefer and call me in the AM and Lee would feel a lto better.
Correction for #4;
It is Foxglove for digitalis. Nightshade has toxins and is a cousin to the potato and tomato.
oops … one ,more reason to leave use of weeds to the indigenes. But then, I would do as bad with ‘shrooms.
@4
Medical marijuana laws create a bad precedent for the practice of medicine. Put another way, aspirin was originally made from white willow bark. Suppose Bayer decided it wanted to sell WWB?
Steve, how does one ingest white willow bark in a way that is as effective medicinally as an aspirin tablet? Do they chew it? Smoke it? If there isn’t a way, then the comparison is a bad one. And if you don’t understand that, I will once again extend my offer to put you in touch with UW medical researchers who will explain to you why you’re wrong.
@4
First Lee is upset about my use of the ABBR GVM. I use the term to distinguish the impure green vegetable matter, a term used by police to describe plant material what they suspect to be marijuana. The police, of course, need to have the GVM assayed before they know it is real marijuana. The police problem is also a problem for any physician.
That’s only because the police have no control over its production or knowledge of where it came from. When a medical marijuana grower produces marijuana, they’ll know the particular strand which will give them very specific details of the concentration of the particular chemicals. Different strands are good for different ailments based upon its chemical make-up.
He also says that people should be allowed to buy GVM marijuana, as opposed to Marinol, because smoking is more effective than other ways of taking THC. While I have read this claim, I am not sure there is objective data to support the claim and suspect that if tyhe claim is true, it would be other ways of taking marinol as well.
For the 80th time, I will gladly put you in touch with UW medical researchers who can show you the data. How much longer are you willing to humiliate yourself over this, Steve?
Lee,
Sorry that my opinions lead you to think I am a fool. You could be right.
FWIW, my level of interest in this subject is a lot lower than yours. I see marijuana mainly as an issue of personal freedom rather than as a major cause. I also see it as a terrible example of the misuse, by the authorities, of the credibility of science. The latter is why I also oppose the concept of legalized use of the undefined material the cops called GVM.* I see too little light between the luddism of the antiglobal warming crowd and the medical marijuana crowd.
I do not think you are as a luddite. Quite the opposite. Your analysis of the drug war is insightful and on most other issues you seem not only nclear headed but driven to learn facts. I trust your opinions on many issues, but not on legalized prescriptions of undefined materials. marijuana( as am I, but you either misunderstand the scientific practice or you are willing to put it aside because of your cause.
Lets get back to specifics:
a. You claim there are major authorities who support the prescription of marijuana and criticize me for not reading them.
I have listened and read on my own. I have even directed you to some sources that offer a balanced opinion and have published in real journals. I can summarize the availble opinion, as I have read it as follows:
You have made the offer to put me in touch with experts at the UW many times, but never followed through. One time you did give me two names. One had no apparent qualifications, though certainly he like I may well have opinions. The other may have had qualifications but his publication record was not clear to me.
My bottom line is that I consider the misuse of science by politicians a much bigger issue than the need to prescribe marijuana. At the same time, because the evidence against recreational marijuana is so bad, I think it ought to be legalized and controlled.
In the meantime, if you know someone who needs medical marijuana and can nto afford marinol or get pot illegally, maybe we should raise a fund for them.
@9
In the meantime, if you know someone who needs medical marijuana and can nto afford marinol or get pot illegally, maybe we should raise a fund for them.
Steve,
As I’ve already pointed out to you a number of times, and has been explained in some of the literature I’ve sent you (written by doctors), there are a number of patients who find that Marinol is ineffective when compared to the effect of smoked marijuana. This is well known.
legalization of prescription green vegetable matter, that is marijuana grown outside of supervision or purification, is not supported by any authority because our laws do not permit prescription of undefined substances.
Again, these substances are not undefined, and they are not grown “outside of supervision or purification.” There are a number of strains of cannabis that are very well-defined and very specific as to their chemical properties. When you go into a California medical marijuana dispensary, for instance, you can order different strains by name, and patients will often know which strains work best for their pain, or their glaucoma, or whatever particular ailment they have.
if you have a better term for this, you have not give it to me. “Medical marijuana” is itself a very misleading term since it assumes marijuana is an approved drug and that is simply not true.
And I’ve explained to you numerous times as well that the reasons that marijuana is not an approved drug are political, not scientific. If the FDA conducted clinical trials on specific strains of marijuana, they would be shown to have medicinal properties, just as any number of existing pharmaceuticals have been. Even the DEA’s own judge and the federal government have been forced to acknowledge this fact. In addition, the Dept of Health and Human Services has been in violation of the law for continuing to delay ruling for marijuana’s rescheduling as a drug with medical benefit. All of this is not happening because of bad science, it’s happening because hundreds of thousands of Americans benefit medicinally from using marijuana. And it’s not just in their heads. It works as a medicine for a number of ailments. Denying this clear fact does put you in league with global warming and evolution deniers, whether you care to acknowledge this or not.
Lee,
You keep telling me abut a literature that, when I look, doe snot exist, about UW faculty whom you claim exist but I can not find, and about the perceptions of patients as somehow more valid tyhan clinical studies. Sorry, I can not but any of that and nor should the voters.
As for the idea tha there are “strains” of marijuana that are better or worse then others for specific diseases, I honestly and sincerely recommend that you look at Bastyr or some such if you want sympathy with that idea. The “molecular theory” of chemistry hads been aorund about the same time as the theory of evolution. If two pants behave differently then there chemical composition must be different. The idea that folks can breed strains is .. well .. FRIGHTENING to anyone like myself who has watched drugs go through the process of approval. Let me put it this way, to “prove” that one stain of marijuana was better than another for say the nausea associated with certain kinds of cancer, would require a double blind study involving hundreds or even thousand of patients. Somehow, as faulty as the FDA is, I really do not think we wantg t return to the days where medicine men sold nostrums off of their carts.
Look, we do agree completely that the illegalization of marijuana is a bad thing. Maybe that is a good place to park this argument?
@11
Well, Gregory Carter is one person you should talk to. He wrote up a guest column in the PI today.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.....ana08.html
I also sent you literature from Lester Grinspoon, who has been studying this for decades. Another person I can put you in touch with UW medical student Sunil Aggarwal, who has done significant research.
As for the idea tha there are “strains” of marijuana that are better or worse then others for specific diseases, I honestly and sincerely recommend that you look at Bastyr or some such if you want sympathy with that idea.
Are you denying that there are different strains of marijuana with different (and known) chemical compositions? Really? Are you that completely ignorant on this subject?
The “molecular theory” of chemistry hads been aorund about the same time as the theory of evolution. If two pants behave differently then there chemical composition must be different.
Exactly, and the variations of different strains of marijuana DO behave differently because of the relative concentration of chemicals.
The idea that folks can breed strains is .. well .. FRIGHTENING to anyone like myself who has watched drugs go through the process of approval.
What does one thing have to do with the other? And why would it be frightening? No form of marijuana has ever been lethal at any purity level. What does it matter if people use cross-breeding techniques to generate different strains that have different chemical compositions?
Let me put it this way, to “prove” that one stain of marijuana was better than another for say the nausea associated with certain kinds of cancer, would require a double blind study involving hundreds or even thousand of patients.
Sure it would. And what I’m saying is that if those studies are done, they will be able to tell us which strains of marijuana have the most effective medicinal value for particular ailments.
Somehow, as faulty as the FDA is, I really do not think we wantg t return to the days where medicine men sold nostrums off of their carts.
That’s irrelevant to this argument, Steve. If the FDA refuses to conduct tests on a drug, that’s not proof that the drug doesn’t have medicinal value. That’s a separate argument. What’s clear is that if the FDA conducted tests on marijuana, they could certify it as a safe and effective medicine.