Danny Westneat’s got it exactly right in talking about British Columbia’s continued success at building mass transit, versus our Sisyphean struggles:
In the past decade, British Columbians have voted directly on transit issues exactly zero times.
Meanwhile, we here in Puget Sound have voted on transportation issues 12 times. Twice on light rail, five times on monorail, twice on gas taxes and three times on Tim Eyman transportation initiatives.
Anyone else sick of all this voting?
I know I am. And judging from the decisive defeat of I-912 (yes… 7 points is decisive) coming from an electorate with a history of supporting anti-tax measures, it looks like a lot of other people are getting sick of all this voting too.
WA’s highest paid politician, Tim Eyman, promises to come back next year with yet another $30 car tabs initiative, which like I-776 before it, is mostly intended to undermine light rail. I suppose there might be a place for direct democracy, but constantly subjecting complex transportation projects to vote after vote — even while under construction — is a surefire recipe for gridlock, both political and otherwise.
So I’m with Danny:
How about we butt out now and see if government can make work what we’ve got?
Yes watchdog ’em, audit ’em, make ’em do it right.
But enough with the people power. It may make us the envy of the world, but when it comes to transportation, we’re only the laughingstock of Canada.
Anti-democracy?
Nope.
Anti-Demagoguery.
Maybe their mass transit proponents aren’t incompetants and/or liars.
Danny Westneat is a drooling idiot…
Come on,
a) their projects are pretty nice. I know Calgary well, and they built their main line along the main road (mcleod trail). We of course are pissing awy money on rainier avenue.
b)Canada has no bill of rights…power not aimed to the people, rather to the government; you really want that?
c) Westneat’s logic says we should have done the monorail, despite it being a financial debacle…
righton missed the point yet again. Westneat’s logic doesn’t say what he alleges in point c). It says let “representative” democracy do it’s job — representing. Initiatives bypass the (in theory)cooler and wiser heads of our elected representatives, putting the votes on complex issues before the generally underinformed masses. If we had followed Westneat’s logic, the monorail probably never would have made it out of commitee.
Wrong One @ 3
Yes we know very well your knee-jerk reactions to Westneat et. al.
And you would know a lot about Calgary – the one place in Canada that is most alien to the rest of Canada and that most resembles – Texas!
People in B.C. didn’t vote on transportation because they gave their politicians the benefit of the doubt. If they had screwed up, they would have voted them out!
How many people live in Canada? 30, 35 million? The lower tax base and higher per capita level of government services might motivate the pols to think through things a bit more.
Canada most certainly has a bill of rights.
their projects are pretty nice. I know Calgary well, and they built their main line along the main road (mcleod trail).
Last time I checked, and any Canadian scholars can correct me if things have changed recently, Calgary was not in British Columbia.
@4
“If we had followed Westneat’s logic, the monorail probably never would have made it out of commitee.”
That’s probably true, and a telling point. Designing cost-effective transportation projects is an engineering problem. It’s not something you can expect a mob to do successfully. Yet, that’s exactly what you get with initiatives — government by mob. You can no more design a transportation system by initiative than a space shuttle. This is a job for professionals who know what the hell they’re doing.
This is my feeling on this: if the vote of the people matters then it should not require 5 votes for the people’s voice to be heard. Nothing will ever get done that way.
Meanwhile, if we’re going to stick with initiatives as a way to screw around with legislation, I proposed the next time Tim Eyman wants to re-pave his driveway we put that to a statewide vote.
I don’t think Tim Eyman is Washington’s highest paid politician. The interim monorail director is making something outlandish, like $20,000 or $30,000 per month plus living expenses. The director of the Port of Seattle, Mic Dinsmore, makes well over $300,000 per year. We have a lot of university officials and school superintendents making over $200,000 per year. I think Governor Gregoire and Executive Sims only get about $160,000 or so per year.
Vancouver BC sounds like it must be liberal heaven; transit is decided by the “we know what’s best for you” government. Voting on things just gets to noisy and messy. It’s the same decision process they used for their government-run and assisted injection “clinics” for drug addicts.
Righton has things a little backwards, but that’s pretty much par for the course.
Calgary built a rail line out into the prairie that (duh!) BECAME the main drag. I personally think that’s a great idea, but building a light rail out to Moses Lake isn’t going to get a lot of political support.
Righton, you have all these places you like (Calgary, Taiwan and Switzerland in the last thread) and you’re not living there? What is up with that?
Please, please. Stop hurting yourself. Rather than blaming our vile, evil, corrupt politicans, blame us soc-yi-al-ist voters that put them there. We are simply not going to vote for large C conservative pols here, and you’re going to get even older and more bitter waiting for it to happen.
The places in Washington with political values that match yours are largely agrarian shitholes. Calgary is a suburbanites wet dream. There are shopping malls galore, and nothing to do on a Friday night but eat at chain restaurants or sit at home and watch videos. More than a week there, and I start wanting to slash my wrists. But, hey if it’s your kind of fun, property is cheap and jobs are plentiful. Why are you sitting around here bitching about it rather than moving someplace that is more your speed? What keeps you here anyhow? You’re not wearing an ankle braclet are you?
Rick said, “Vancouver BC sounds like it must be liberal heaven; transit is decided by the “we know what’s best for you†government. Voting on things just gets to noisy and messy. It’s the same decision process they used for their government-run and assisted injection “clinics†for drug addicts.”
Actually it is something called “representational government”. The folks making the decisions, or approving them, will have been voted into office on a platform. It is a remarkable system that’s been with us for, oh…, what…, almost 230 years now.
I’ll never understand people’s inability to grasp the distinction between a “we know what’s best for you” dictatorship and the “figuring out what’s best for us” philosophy of representational government.
And, no, the objection to widespread invocation of the initiative process is not about allegedly “unwashed” masses who are too stupid to understand the issues. It’s about intelligent people who don’t have time to become fully informed about complex issues.
or we could dump our sewage off Neah Bay, or little Danny can get off his ass, and move to the land of Maple leafs and refuge killers seeking asylum.
Rick @ 10,
Yep. God forbid that any place should elect candidates and let them do their jobs. The folks of COPE who set up the legal injection sites ran for the council as unabashed lefties, and delivered lefty solutions to urban problems.
The Vancouver Dowtown Eastside where the safe injection site is located is a nearly unique case. There is no business community in the neighborhood to rally to clean up the place. There are no neighbors who can be banded together to form a block watch or what have you. There is one reason, and one reason only to be in the DES. If you want to get or use unfun, unsafe, and very harmful drugs that will adversely affect your health, or if you need a dirt-cheap flophouse to use your harmful drugs in, the DES is for you.
Enough about Vancouver. Neither of us live there, and I’ll bet you’ve never set foot in the city.
Let’s turn your argument around. Do you think that having a permanent campaign where initiative after initiative gets on the ballot due to a minority of voters, while the majority has to take time to defend their decisions over and over is a good way to run a government? It only sounds like a good idea to me if you want to throw sand into the gears of government.
Rick @ 12
Initiatives also happen because “intelligent people who don’t have time to become fully informed about complex issues” are completely ignored by their representational government.
I think there’s a basic misunderstanding of the difference between the verbs “to listen” and “to defer”. I’ve never had a representative not listen to what I’ve had to say. Often, my representatives have not deferred to my wishes.
Please. Let’s not advocate a system of governance wherein the informed repeatedly defer to the wishes of the uninformed.
Hey Stefan – the monorail is dead; can your wife get me a good deal on a Hyundai?
Rick, I diagree. As far as I can see, initiatives happen becuz the following:
a) Some large funding base (a corporation, single issue industry, a particular minority of voters) decides it doen’t like what the elected gov’t is doing and decides to try to oppose the will of the people. Hired signature collectors and massive advertising get them on the ballot and win for them. The malpractice initiative was one of these
b) A minority group of voters can’t get together a coalition to make thier voice heard (becuz they are too rigid, issue is a small niche, they are wack jobs, etc) so they write a cleverly worded, sane sounding proposal, use an army of grass roots or paid sig collectors and get a ballot passed that the masses didn’t really understand. I’d say the audit initiative meets this criteria
c) Some nut job comes up with an issue that wasn’t quite good enough for a real statesman to be associated with. He mobilizes a majority of the populus by promising somehting that is essentially free lunch. This last is a) a direct reference to Eyeman and car tabs and b) exactly why the initiative process is bogus. You can not go on forever cutting and not expect to pay at some point. The world just doesn’t work that way, as any good “realist” should know. I-912 was supposed to be this, but people woke up in time.
d) The occasional oversight by our legislators. I’d say the smoking ban is in this category.
I’d put a, b and c in a category where they never should have been initiatives, but rather left to our ELECTED officials.
Roger,
I hear they’re rounding up all the rabbits in the Woodland Park Zoo. Just a little heads up…
“I hear they’re rounding up all the rabbits in the Woodland Park Zoo.”
And they’re not getting tutored!
you guys are nuts;;. where to start..
a) bill of rights is a set of amendments.. proscribing individual rts vs the state. an attny could articulate this better than me, even Roger. We are unique in that regard
b) BC, alberta, yeah, i know the diff. Used calgary as example of even a right wing place can get trains right. Skytrain in Vancouver also nice.
c) Westneat remains a whoos. I think he might be worse than old bag jean godden; certainly worse than Nicole.
Since two of my comments were eaten by the filter, I’d like to ask a direct question to our righty friends about initiatives.
Let’s suppose the law of gravity gets repealed and the balance of power in Washington (or King County) goes to large C conservatives.
It’s now time to do things the right way. Righton likes privatization a lot. He’s said so before. Let’s give a 50 year B-O-T charter to Amalgamated Transit, Ltd. to build the system we deserve.
Only, there’s this minority that’s peeved about it. Maybe they saw a story on a web page somewhere that Almalgamated used offshore labor from Burma on a project in Thailand. Paul Allen owns 20% of Metropolitan Transit, Inc. He’s not getting his squeeze and he’s pissed.
So once a year, they do a referendum that threatens to yank ATL’s charter. Every slowdown and overrun gets broadcast at maximum volume on Air America. You know the drill.
ATL is busy pouring concrete and they’re Not Happy. The underwriters of their performance bond are getting skittish. Each referendum is pushing their bonding costs up and their profit down. They are looking at the possibility of going well into the construction of a system with a massive capital outlay and having any promise of future return demolished. They are threatening to cut their losses now and leave before it gets really expensive to stay here.
Do you STILL think asking the voters what they think again and again is a good idea? This process cuts both ways friends.
jsa, good one…
You framed a good hypothetical, and at same time have to quibble a bit. I don’t think we could screw up Qwest field and the Seahawks deal there, no matter how much we might yell and scream. Lets say they used Chinese slave labor, were pro abortion, etc, etc. We get initiative to repeal the Hotel tax…
I sort of suspect our efforts would get turned down??
lemme try another way, doing work at same time :)
ok, i got my train thing going, and I follow all the laws, but on the side I’m a big loud guy everyone hates (don trump or ken lay or someone). You guys boycott, holler, scream, ultimately get a referendum on the ballot (sort of a 2ndary boycott).
I guess at that point you could legally nail my other businesses (new tax on my hotels) but you would have some nasty legal battles if you attacked my train franchise..??
I dunno, good question…
jsa, better question is,
Do you guys want to end the right to ref, initiative (that the real progressives got going 100 yrs ago)??
ARe you then “regressives”?
“Do you guys want to end the right to ref, initiative…”
Not entirely, but I think requiring a supermajority vote on an initiative wouldn’t be a bad idea. It would bring the practice more in line with the intent of establishing the right in the first place.
righton, Im not one of those guys, but I will answer. To me the problem is that the initiative process has been severely misused in recent years. I mean lets face it, when they started the process it was assumed those who would sign an initiative process would be those who thought it should be the law.
Is that the case any more? Heck no, the paid signature gatherers tell people that the initiative process is for ‘getting things to a vote’. Which is a subtle lie.
On top of that, there are orgainization with far too many ditto heads who for some reason will sign anything at all they get told is a good idea without spending more than 5 minutes considering the full consequences.
The fact is the only reason the gas tax went through in the first place is because of one of those stupid short sighted initiatives.
It occurs to me, we pay people, not a lot but some, to sit and consider the consequences of laws. We hire experts to figure out exactly what vital changes need to happen, what maintenence and construction are vital.
We need to either stop paying them or stop doing the work we hired them to do. If those who write initiatives feel so strongly that there is a problem in state government, they need to focus their energy into fixing government rather than this stupid initiative process, its really breaking the state.
I ain’t been rounded up yet.
Bill;
I voted for 912, because long ago I voted against ST, you guys all voted for it. It morphed into something that the majority did not approve (1/2 the miles, 2x the cost, you get the idea).
So its a protest against big gov’t arrogance. I’m just amazed we haven’t fought more of these. How about the 2 stadiums, we all voted them down, and they rose to life. I’m suprised the Commons and the monorail somehow didn’t rise….
And you didn’t mention things like ST, monorail exist as super regional, quasi independent entities, really hard to control in the conventional sense….
ST is still a good deal, even at the revised price. I wish conservatives were as bull-headed about transportation planning as they are about two dudes getting married.
So, as a monorail die-hard, lets bury the bitch and move on. Transportation infrastructure is too important to let sit while we (I, that is) cry over spilt milk.
Oh yeah, let’s stop sending transportation stuff to the ballot. Instead, let’s get smart people who know stuff (and make sure the numbers add up) and get them to start some planning. End Metro, Pierce Transit, Community Transit, Kitsap Transit, Monorail (as of 11/8), SoundTransit, and just put them all under an umbrella organization, so with I-900, we can audit the shit out of it. Thanks. <---guy who rides the bus
And you somehow think the initiative process will fix that? Initiatives are not a protest venue. Dude, when you make and initiative you are writing law. Yes, it is there for when an administration is non-responsive, but this upswing in initiatives has gone on through, what, 3 administrations? If you think government is being misrun, run for office. My feeling is that anyone who submits initiatives through more than one administration and doesnt run for office is not trying to fix anything, they are trying to subvert the law.
I also find it funny that you bring up ST, which passed in a vote, 912, which did not pass, the stadiums, which has never been subject to the initiative process, the commons, voted down, and the monorail, brought to vote five because some sore heads refused to actually accept the votes of the people. How do any of these justify the use of the initiative process? Actually what do any of them (except 912) have to do with the initiative process?
righton @ 21 & 22,
I am not initimately familiar with the details of Safeco or QWest fields. My understanding is that they are owned by the county, paid for with tax revenue, with the franchise owners (the Seahawks, aka Paul Allen) kicking in some funds to offset costs.
While I could “stick it to Allen” by vetoing the stadium, he would lose a bit on the building, but the primary source of revenue (i.e. the Seahawks franchise) would simply become the Portland Seahawks, while we taxpayers would be stuck with the bulk of the bill for a now unoccupied stadium.
In a fully privatized B-O-T transport argeement, the construction consortia takes all risks for construction, in exchange for a lease of a determined time on the property that is built on. If people throw a fit halfway through, you don’t get to take your trains and play elsewhere (you could take the trains, but that’s not the valuable part of the franchise).
As to the “regressive” question (I actually like the question, even though you were being snarky), the problem hinges on the Buckley v. Valeo and other decisions by the Supreme Court that firmly established campaign contributions as a form of free speech and therefore covered under the blanket of the First. I understand the reasoning, but I think the court screwed the pooch on this one.
The initiative process was intended as a way for the people to short-circuit an unresponsive or corrupt government. If you were to tell the Progressives that a century later people were buying signatures at a buck a pop, they would be horrifed both by the hijacking of their reforms by the moneyed classes, and by how expensive corruption had become in a few short years.
I don’t know how to answer that one. I think that initiatives should exist. I think that raising the bar over and over again to make them hard to pass is doing violence to the original intent of the initiative process, and mostly, I think that the quantity of money running through the political system in general is having a phenomenally distorting effect on the political discourse.
Nobody gets into yelling matches about overturning Buckley vs. Valejo. Maybe it’s time to have that conversation.
jsa ouch…
no more free speech? Shoe on the other foot; what if court finds that NBC , Katie Couric are providing semi intentional help to the left. You mean they have to report that value.
Goof of the day though goes to Belltowner: ST a good deal?
Ouch that hurts….which ST…the $500 per person train, or the rail line to nowhere, or the special train rails in the only 10 yr old bus tunnel, or the buses that to me look like Metro buses…
oh man i could go on all night on ST
Sorry to get off the subject, but I have a drinking problem. we started this game, and now I am plowed in about 15 minutes five nights a week. someone help me. I was on step Number 4, but now I am back to stepping on the dog.
Here is that Bill Oreily drinking game we play. Take a drink when you see him use one of these slimy methods during his show…..you won’t be standing after 20 minutes.
1) Adamantly declare your show a “No-Spin Zone” and repeat this often. Soon it will appear that your spin is not really spin!
2) Make as many vague general statements as you like because:
a) if they don’t pan out, who cares?
b) if they do, then you can take credit for being FIRST to tackle the issue!
3) Go for the easy targets: politicians and celebrities, and if they don’t know who you are or decline to appear on your show, then portray them as being “afraid” of you because they know they’re “wrong”.
4) Always refer to yourself as a “reporter” and to your show as a “news program,” no matter how sensationalistic the topics you have chosen.
5) Label everyone who doesn’t agree with you a “liberal”, and use as many colorful adjectives as possible when describing the left wing. Label everyone and everything–you can never label people enough!
6) However, never use colorful adjectives when describing your position or that of other conservatives. Portray your position as scientific granite-hard fact!
7) If you say “I only deal in facts” with enough proud anger, you will easily offset anyone who questions you and they’ll be less likely to demand your proof. Or just lie and take the high road.
8) In the rare instance someone does pursue proof of your “facts,” just bulldoze them with questions and opinions to create an air of ‘you-must-be-crazy-to-believe-otherwise.’
9) If someone continues to demand cited facts, then say “Everyone we’ve talked to says so.” Then book a few selected inconspicuous guests in the future to come on and back your statement. You can easily represent any group’s opinion in any way you want by doing things this way!
10) Pick several obscure fringe issues to bring up during each show. It’s, of course, a breeze to be right when ranting about them and this scores easy sensational-points.
11) The more questions you can fire at a guest without giving them a chance to answer, the more “authority” status you gain and the more credibility they lose. AKA The O’Reilly Master Method.
12) Whenever you get into trouble during a debate just align yourself with the working class. In fact, you can pull out your “hero-for-the-struggling-people” act for any tight spot you may find yourself in. Never underestimate how powerful it is to exploit this! A related and untouchable spin is the “hero-for-the-little-children” act.
13) If you have a guest who is beating you in debate, simply overpower them with questions, demands for facts, or just change the subject with the segue “Ok, look, let’s get back to the issue,” and then bring up a new issue. Remember, it is extremely easy to make an unprepared guest look bad.
14) In-between questions make little comments, unfinished question fragments, or subtle sarcastic quips that express what you really think, then quickly interrupt yourself with your next scripted question. These little remarks are pure golden spin!
15) If you have ever been to a foreign country always bring that fact up, especially if you’ve been to one where violent conflict was occurring (or at least nearby). This is a great defense if ever your ‘journalistic integrity’ is threatened or if you need to interject some patriotism to throw off a guest.
16) When all else fails, make a face of pity and say something religious like “Well, I know God blesses you,” or “I don’t think Jesus would do that, but….”
17) At the end of every interview just say “We’ll let the viewers decide.” This nicely removes your responsibility for most of the things you’ve just said.
18) Always take your position to the extreme when dealing with simple mundane issues. This keeps the sensationalism ball rolling.
19) Bring attention to ALL press you receive, good or bad. Also talk about press that is NOT about you as if it IS.
20) End your show with a humble-pie slice of criticism from your viewers, but always remember to follow each little run of bad opinions with one or two of praise. This end-spin is useful in many, many ways.
21) Portray all newspeople as ‘afraid to ask’ the ‘hard-hitting’ questions that you do, and tout that you get ‘serious answers’ even if most of your show is factually impotent. This effective spin is called the ‘Viagra Tactic.’
Seriously folks it’s almost time for the show, and someone went to the liquer store and bought TEQUILA.
And thereby demonstrate what exactly is wrong with party politics. You start by defending the initiative process as showing the will of the people, and somehow segway into spitting on the will of the people if it turns out the the people want something that you dont.
Realize ST is the will of the people. If you think the cost is too high, why not contribute something to help figure out a way to bring the cost down? Or are you so tied up in making the current administration look bad that you are willing to tie up transportation for the whole damn state for years till someone from your party is in office?
I am picking on you soley cause you brought it up, I have to say the dems have been doing it too.
righton @ 31:
I never said no more free speech. You did. I am concerned by Buckley vs Valejo saying that writing checks is a form of free speech in and of itself. Maybe it should be, maybe not. It certainly transferred a lot of power in one fell swoop to a very small group of people who write large checks.
One of the perogatives of owning a press is influencing the political process. Always has been, always will be. You certainly don’t own one because it provides a big return on investment.
The First protects print and broadcast media very broadly. Always has, always will. However nauseous I may get at certain uses of the First, the fact that people can use it to say things that make me want to hurl means that it is doing exactly what it is supposed to do, namely to protect the voices of a minority from the tyrrany of the majority.
danw@36…..WOW…you also just described al gore. BTW…..if you think that most real conservatives like [even remotely] o’reilly then you are delusional.i think he appeals more to the far right that have confederate flags in the window.
i too hate it when he implies that if someone doesn’t talk to the [great] o’reilly then they are afraid of him. good grief…..there isn’t anyone that posts on this blog that couldn’t tear him apart……well, maybe a few couldn’t.lucy and don/donna come to mind.
Did anybody see the news clips of Bush’s disgraceful Veterans Day speech? Veterans Day traditionally is an occasion for politicians to thank veterans for their service, and make cotton-candy patriotic speeches.
But in a radical departure from tradition, Bush hijacked this solemn holiday to bash his critics with the tired old rightwing canard that criticizing his policies undermines the troops and helps the enemy.
In addition, Bush made the startling assertion that a “bipartisan commission” had investigated and cleared the administration of manipulating intelligence. What the fuck??! Wasn’t it just a few days ago that Sernate Democrats used a parliamentary maneuver to bypass Majority Leader Bill Frist because the Republicans REFUSED to permit a real investigation into White House use of intelligence?
Sen. John Kerry correctly called Bush’s speech “playing the politics of fear and smear.”
With nearly 60% of Americans believing Bush is dishonest and lied about the reasons for going to war, it’s Hail Mary time for the Liar-in-Chief and his handlers.
Historical note: the Seahawks stadium was approved by a statewide public vote in 1997. It never ceases to amaze me that people forget this.
In addition, the Mariners’ stadium vote in ’95 took place before their playoff run. If anybody thinks that the results would have been the same had they waited to do the vote until after the playoffs, you’re nuts.
Historical note: the Seahawks stadium was approved by a statewide public vote in 1997. It never ceases to amaze me that people forget this.
In addition, the Mariners’ stadium vote in ’95 took place before their playoff run. If anybody thinks that the results would have been the same had they waited to do the vote until after the playoffs, you’re nuts.
roger/goldy……..”the tired old rightwing canard that criticizing his policies undermines the troops and helps the enemy.”
you may think [?] that it doesn’t help the enemy but you onviously know little about history. may i suggest more reading and less stefan-stalking for you?
I see the HA Hag has returned for another ass whooping. Welcome back Xmasnut
@43
Nobody is helping the enemy (i.e. Al Qaeda) more than you stupid fucks who support this incompetent president.
You know in all honesty, I would be all for light rail and any other kind of “mass transit” alternatives if: 1.) It actually went somewhere that the majority of people could use, and 2.) If I actually had any confidence in the government to get the damn things built, instead of spending year after year, and study after study, and outlandish salaries on our dime.
I certainly am nowhere near an expert on these things, but can you explain why we have to study these projects for what seems like years, and nothing ever gets built? It’s just a little frustrating seeing all that hard earned money get pissed down the drain, instead of actually put to good use.
Oh, and for the record I’m neither a Democrat or a Republican, I vote my consience, be it left side or right side of the isle. Everything that I said last week here, was just my frustration at seeing nothing getting done. That and knowing that these projects that we “had to have the funding for now”, wont even begin until after my daughter is well out of high school.
XmasCrankFiend: Roger Rabbit has lived history. He is a Vietnam veteran if I’m not mistaken.
Kudos to the Rabbit on Veteran’s Day. May you forever elude the stalkers at Woodland/Greenlake – those rat bastards!
Here’s a link from a fellow military man on Dubya’s latest idiocy. Warning: The speech is dismissed with extreme prejudice!
For the Clueless @47
Thank you Mr President for thanking Roger Rabbit for being a great American Hero. Roger was part of the horrible Vietnam experience, which all of us know is not quite what you went through. But I’m sure those planes were cool…
Your welcome…
@48
Ya, I didn’t get to fly in cool planes over the commie-infested Houston ship channel. On a good day, my transportation was a tank or a truck, but most of the time it was my powerful hind feet with razor sharp claws tucked inside a pair of canvas jungle boots.
These LEFTIST PINHEADED CLOWNS really have their tit in a ringer this time.
Unfortunately with most of Seattle’s EDUCATED IDIOTS, it takes them a few years to realize their tit is in a ringer!!!
After a few years of pain & agony, they will finally recognize their tit is stretched out like GUMBY!!!.
But rather than admit they are wrong, they will pretend that they did a great job…..but the real problem is folks are greedy and need to cough up another 15 cents per gallon GasTax.
All you can do now is hold WSDOT, Gregoire and the anti-912 crowd to their campaign rhetoric.
Did any of you see any improvement in traffic congestion TODAY???!
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
I didn’t. It appears it is worse!!
DAY 1—-The 9-1/2 Cent GasTax Watch for improving traffic congestion. FAILURE!!!
WSDOT will be so forced to show some improvement that I’ll bet they eventually open the HOV Lanes!!! And use that to take credit for shorter commute time!
Seattle LEFTIST PINHEADS==Lenin’s USEFUL IDIOTS===CLOWNS!
I didn’t see any improvement in traffic congestion today….anywhere.
Day 1—-Traffic Congestion Relief Vigil
bill @ 37.
ever hear of bait and switch? $2bb for 20 miles or whatever is what was up for vote.
At what point do we call it a bum deal?
I still love the John Keister line back then, “for the money ST Wants we could buy every man woman and child a way bitchin Camaro”
@47
Those well-meaning but misguided park rangers will never catch Roger Rabbit, cut off my balls, and send me to Rabbit Meadows!!! I was trained in escape and evasion by no less than the U.S. Government!! They may succeed in carting off all my children, and perhaps even the cute fluffy female bunnies. NO PROBLEM!!! A week after Easter, Green Lake Park will have a new crop of cute fluffy female bunnies, and I’ll just line ’em up and bang 10 of ’em at a time!! Green Lake Park will be repopulated in no time!!! BUNNIES FOREVER!!!!
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
bax 41; i know for sure
a) Safeco was voted down by voters;
b) Seahawk, i need to check; thought we also voted it down
52
Where you planning to drive that way bitchin’ Camaro, righty? On the I-5 communal parking lot?
I didn’t see any improvement in traffic congestion today….anywhere.
Hmm. I did a few weeks ago, when DOT opened up a new truck-climbing lane on SR 18 in Peasley Canyon. The backups there are now gone.
The same thing happened on I-90 coming up out of the Columbia River gorge when they opened up truck-climbing lanes there.
But of course you wouldn’t know about that. Because you’re clueless.
@54
a) An increase in the general sales tax for Safeco stadium was rejected by the voters. The legislature did not override the popular vote by raising the sales tax anyway, but it did impose a rental car tax and hotel/motel room tax to pay for the stadium. These taxes tend to hit out-of-town visitors. Many other cities that have built stadiums have done the same thing — they tax visiting tourists and businessmen to pay for their stadiums.
b) The Seahawks stadium narrowly won voter approval at the polls.
@48
Funny, I’ve never thought of myself as a hero. I did my job and my time, then came home. Plenty of guys in my outfit didn’t. One of them saved a bunch of lives, and sleeps under a stone bearing the words, “Medal of Honor.”
It sticks in my craw that a guy who joined the National Guard to avoid combat, and then went AWOL from the Guard because the weekend drills were too much inconvenience for him, gets to be President of the United States, and have bands play for him, and people salute him and suck up to him, when the real heroes only got to be dead.
b) The Seahawks stadium narrowly won voter approval at the polls.
http://www.secstate.wa.gov/ele.....2=&y=
See that link for details. The taxes only apply in King County, but the vote was statewide.
@58
Interestingly, if you look at the county-by-county breakdown, most of the E. Washington counties voted against it even though they don’t have to pay the tax, which makes you wonder if those hayseed Republicans are knee-jerk against anything Seattle wants.
Unfortunately, this contrary streak wasn’t limited to Washington’s Republican farmers.
“Bush’s approach in most situations seemed a reactive combination of calculations to … reject Clinton’s policies. This was especially clear in … forsaking Clinton’s efforts to address the dangers of international terrorism.” (Sidney Blumenthal, “The Clinton Wars,” pp. 797-798.)
Think about it — 2,986 innocent people died on Sept. 11, 2001 because of Bush’s partisan vanity.
Where you planning to drive that way bitchin’ Camaro, righty? On the I-5 communal parking lot?
Comment by Roger Rabbit— 11/11/05 @ 9:23 pm
Damn straigt I-5 is a parking lot and who has been running this state for most of the last half century. With the donks running things that is the way it going to stay too.
Thanks for holding down the fort, Roger. These RIGHTARDS need a constant tongue lashing as badly as Bonnie Prince Charlie needs a smart, stinging spanking. Don’t worry. Your not hurting them. They know they deserve it and they love it!! That’s why they spend more time here than at uSP. Stoking the fires of their paranoia is less entertaining to them than the mental bludgeoning they receive here.
Hey anybody laughing at the French lately? Iam rooting for the freedom fighters (rioters). Thoese poor frogs can’t even protect themselves from internal unrest and we are suppose to consult with them regarding Iraq?
Well, well, DOOFUS has climbed out from under his rock after finally sleeping off his I-912 defeat hangover.
Silly DOOFUS indeed!!!!
64
How much did your side spend on 912 again? All we did was get a couple hundred thousand signatures in a month and spent some pocket change.
Hey clueless we all know the reason why I-912 went down was because of the donkbold voting machines Logan installed in King County. You guys stold the election. No fair waaaa!!!!
DOOFUS: I thought it was a slam dunk! Everyone was for it, right? I mean it was all about “sending a message” right? Everyone was behind “the message” weren’t they. The whole team was on the same page was it not?
Do I have to dig up your pearls of wisdom that you dropped here and there ever so lightly?
I mean no-one could have been dumb enough to fall for the other side’s ad campaign right?
Crawl back under your rock now DOOFUS. You can come back out when you decide to grow up.
Comon- Can’t I believe in fairy tales like the donk left. Can’t I believe there is such thing as donkbold voting machines stealing elections? It has just as much credibility as the diebold story. Actually it has more credibility because of want happened to Rossi in 04.
DOOFUS @ 68
And 4 million dollars of Republican money couldn’t prove a damn thing could it DOOFUS?
Vance and the WSGOP is still on the hook for a half mil. Give generously DOOFUS. Reward excellence. Help your party out. They’re going to need all the help they can get.
Roger @ 40: “In addition, Bush made the startling assertion that a “bipartisan commission” had investigated and cleared the administration of manipulating intelligence. What the fuck??!”
Oh Roger, Roger…..how quickly we forget.
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Sorry… the link didn’t work. Try again…
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5403731/
@51
“I didn’t see any improvement in traffic congestion today….anywhere. Day 1—-Traffic Congestion Relief Vigil”
Mr. C — I recommend that you hold your breath and refuse to breathe throughout your vigil.
@62
Got your back covered, Harry.
@63
They held off the Germans at Verdun, which is more than you’ve accomplished with your miserable useless life.
@70
Jon – thanks for letting me know that a “bipartisan” Congress didn’t find any wrongdoing by Bush & Co. — the same “bipartisan” Congress that locks Democrats out of meetings. Fuck you.
Jon = apologist for treason
Jon – thanks for letting me know that a “bipartisan” Congress didn’t find any wrongdoing by Bush & Co. – the same “bipartisan” Congress that locks Democrats out of meetings. Fuck you.
What in the WORLD are you talking about?????
Some selected members of the Comittee which I quoted:
Carl Levin
Dianne Feinstein
John Edwards
Barbara Mikuliski
That’s just a few of the Democrats on the committee. Go look it up….
Roger Rabbit = apologist for lazy thinking
We need to start looking for alternatives to the Monorail for the corridor. I have heard some suggestions for the use of streetcars and even Light Rail, as well as Bus Rapid Transit. I wonder, among the property already aquired for the Monorail that now must be sold off, was the land in Interbay where the maintenance facility was to be, on that list? If so, that could have been the land that Metro could have used for a maintenance facility for the Waterfront Streetcar. giving it something to go if the Alaskan Way Viaduct replacement construction lasts as long as they say it will.
Metro and the City should also start working on a limited stop, Rapid Route version of the 15 and 18, with off-vehicle fare collection, and attractive stations at the few stops it does have, and traffic signal pre-emption. The service would be modeled after the LAMTA Metro RAPID service in Los Angeles.
Also, a Commuter Rail Stop at Ballard and Interbay would be a great idea, and replacing Locomotive-Hauled rolliing Stock with Diesel-Mulitple Units.
As For Vancouver, Translink is an interesting operation, they have a variety of vehicles, from Diesel Buses, Compressed Natural Gas Buses, SkyTrain, Electric Trolley Buses, and are responsible for the local road network. It also has the power to contract out any operation if it will show cost-savings. I would like to see Metro be able to do that too, in Denver, The RTD does just that, the state mandate was 20%, but they went beyond that, with more than half of the services contracted out to two companies, so they could use the savings to build their light rail network. Now the voters in the 6 county region have approved a massive plan for Light Rial, Bus Rapid Transit, and Commuter Rail.
evergreen;
you must be one of the dummies who have given us our crumys system. Who gives a rip what kind of bus we get….oh wait, i the end user care, except all the flatulance about diesel cng etc forgets i want
a) a seat
b) on time
c) no drunk next to me
d) wifi?, tv, coffee (not really , but heck airlines offer that)
Damn straigt I-5 is a parking lot and who has been running this state for most of the last half century. With the donks running things that is the way it going to stay too.
What the hell are you talking about? Your party, and you, just endorsed an initiative that reduced spending on roads. The GOP, and you, are the ones that are anti-road construction, not the Democrats. Why can’t you accept responsibility for your choices?
Hey, maybe we really will be better off without the monorail. Now we can keep on telling jokes about the Ballard Driving Academy.
Bunny @ 58
“…These taxes tend to hit out-of-town visitors.”
I’m usually with ya, Roger, but I can’t let that one go. Every time you or I buy a resturant meal (or go to a bar) in King County WE are paying for that fucking stadium – and it’s no less galling now than it was when they ignored the popular vote to ram this b.s though.
BTW – one of the truly low points of Phil Talmadge’s career was when, as a State Supreme Court Justice, he upheld the declaration of an emergency for the M’s pleasure palace – disallowing a referendum and pretty much wiping his ass with our State Constitution’s prohibition on the lending of public credit to private businesses – and the effects of that are still being felt.
That said, I think the Canadians laugh even more at the US health care system – which costs far more and serves far fewer than that of pretty much any other industrilized nation.
@82
Don’t expect these lying bastards (Republicans) to accept responsibility for anything!
GOP = party of (ir)responsibility
@65
“Iam rooting for the freedom fighters (rioters).”
Rufus = pro-terrorist
“Iam rooting for the freedom fighters (rioters).”
Rufus = pro-terrorist
Oh I see, so the wabbit is for the frenchies who have been discrimanating against the rioters.
Wabbit=racists
RUFUS @ 87
“Oh I see, so the wabbit is for the frenchies who have been discrimanating against the rioters.”
Think more broadly (I know that the thinking part is where you have problem). The Rabbit’s statement is pro-law and order (nationality isn’t relevant). Your statement is pro-crime!
You must be a Republican!
The donks are for law and order?? heahahahaha
If you donks were for the law you would have demanded that Clinton step down after he perjured himself. If you donks believed in order you would have stoped the WTO fiasco before it started. You donks believe in law and order…
hahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaahahahahaahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaahahahahaahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaahahahahaahahahahahaha
RUFUS @ 89
“If you donks were for the law you would have demanded that Clinton step down after he perjured himself.”
Hey moron…you may recall that he was impeached by the House and acquitted by the Senate. Or, have you wingnuts thrown out due process now, too?
“If you donks believed in order you would have stoped the WTO fiasco before it started.”
Really, you mean like convicting people for thought crimes? Oh good. Typical wingnut Gestapo tactics.
“You donks believe in law and order…”
Yet more confusion on your part since I am not a Democrat. But, you are correct, it would seem the donks have a much higher respect for law and order than the lawless, lyin’ wingnuts.
If you donks believed in order you would have stoped the WTO fiasco before it started.”
Really, you mean like convicting people for thought crimes? Oh good. Typical wingnut Gestapo tactics.
No you dumbass.. keeping order is like not letting the protesters get to the point of breaking out store windows. Seattle is a donk town and the police take their order from donks. Seattle has the same problem that France has, they both cant protect their own citizens.
you donks were for the law you would have demanded that Clinton step down after he perjured himself.”
Hey moron…you may recall that he was impeached by the House and acquitted by the Senate. Or, have you wingnuts thrown out due process now, too?
Simple question, did Clinton commit perjury when he lied to the grand jury?
RUFUS @ 92
“Simple question, did Clinton commit perjury when he lied to the grand jury?”
No he did not commit purjury before the grand jury. And, he was not found guilty of purjury during his impeachment trial.
RUFUS @ 91
“No you dumbass.. keeping order is like not letting the protesters get to the point of breaking out store windows. Seattle is a donk town and the police take their order from donks. Seattle has the same problem that France has, they both cant protect their own citizens.”
Yes, but Iraq is now a Wingnut “town,” and for 2 years the wingnuts haven’t been able to stop the “protesters” from killing people on almost a daily basis. Broken windows pale in comparison.
Cant nitpick little “good” things out of a certain government. It is all or nothing. All around we have it better than canadians so it isnt fair to pick one little thing out that you like and say “see theirs is better”, and public transit needs to support itself at some poing, possibly with the taxpayer giving it its initial boost to get it off the ground with a planned solvency date, then after it is off the ground slowly back off tax support till the solvency date, then you have a self supporting system.
@84
“Every time you or I buy a resturant meal (or go to a bar) in King County WE are paying for that fucking stadium”
That’s true, but they’re also hitting up travelers by taxing rental cars and hotel/motel rooms. But hey, a lot of cities are doing the same thing to OUR residents, so I don’t feel bad about doing it to THEIR residents. As for stadium taxes on restaurant and bar tabs, I don’t go to restaurants or bars very much, so I don’t get hit with that one.
Regardless, the stadium is a done deal. We’re stuck with it — and stuck with the taxes that financed it. The important thing now is to make sure we don’t get soaked again for another expensive sports facility. Can you say “NASCAR?” These robbers want taxpayers to provide them with a quarter-billion-dollar track facility. Same deal as the baseball and football stadium ripoffs — we have to put up the capital for their business, they take the revenues and profits. Fuck ’em. If NASCAR can’t pay its own way, NASCAR can go away. Not one cent of public money for NASCAR!!!
@87
Hey Rufus – were you one of those anarchists in black masks smashing windows out of Starbucks and overturning cars at WTO? Howard Schultz is looking for you!!!
Rufus = pro-rioters, anti-Starbucks
@89
We did our best to stop WTO before it started, but they held the meeting anyway.
Globalization = anti-worker, anti-people, pro-rich fascism
@92
Hey Doofus — not to excuse Clinton (I don’t), but which do you think is more serious, lying about a private sexual affair or lying about WMDs, outing a CIA agent, and corruption?
Hey Doofus – how come you have no problem with Republicans lying about Kerry’s military service, whether Kerry had an affair with an intern, about Bush’s military service, about global warming, about evolution, etc.?
Rufus = apologist for the politics of fear and smear
@95
Why does public transit have to support itself? Baseball and football don’t support themselves, but nobody has given Seattle’s two stadiums a “solvency date.” I wish they would! So we could get those albatrosses off our necks. Nobody has given the Port of Seattle a “solvency date.” I wish they would! to get the port commissioners out of our pockets!
Hey, here’s an idea — let’s give Bush a “solvency date.” How about October 1, 2006? If he doesn’t balance the budget by then, all his tax cuts for his rich buddies get repealed! All his spending on Iraq gets cut off! Air Force One gets grounded, and his presidential limo gets put in storage! The White House kitchen serves macaroni and cheese, three days a day, until the budget is balanced!
Rupert the lawn dart, did you get a tax cut? Clueless and brainless did you get a tax cut? DJ did you get a tax cut? All ASS donks did you get tax cuts? Here’s a great idea. Please send them back now. You all don’t deserve them. Since all donks are complaining about the tax cuts, give back your money now. Starting with the $600 or more from the 2001 year. Give it back donks!!!
Day 1 Vigil – Will the ASS Donks give back their tax breaks from GWB?
Rupert, only certain donks in congress are saying GWB lied about WMDs. Since most CIVILIZED countries agreed before the war Saddam had them, why is it the ASSes here can’t think of something more original? I notice that the more reserved and cranial of the congressional donks don’t use that mantra. Could it be the fringies, nutcases and moonbats of the donkocratic party are in campaign finance mode? Got to get them $$$ since Dr. Howard Yeeeeeaaagh Dean isn’t cutting the mustard.
Puddybud @ 102
“DJ did you get a tax cut?”
I did get a tax cut, over my objections. I kind of liked the model of fiscal responsibility. You know, where the government actually generates the revenue to pay for the budget.
“Please send them back now.”
No. Bush will burn my money in 0.6 picoseconds by bombing the bejesus out of some innocent Iraqi.
Sorry, Pudster, the fiscally responsible crowd (including many “donks” and independents like me) are asking for a government policy of fiscal responsibility. We want responsible government, and handing over cash to the government before it changes those policies actually works against that goal. The government shouldn’t be reward for fiscal recklesness.
Puddybud @ 103
“Since most CIVILIZED countries agreed before the war Saddam had them…”
Dead wrong, Pud. Most countries went with the findings of the IAEA and UNMOVIC, which had large-scale on-the-ground intelligence. The findings of IAEA and UNMOVIC is one primary reason why the U.S. could not get a U.N. resolution passed for invading Iraq.
DJ, glad to have a conversation. Wrongo my lettered friend. Look back at the September 2002 UN Meeting. I googled many links about it. Look at whom stop the resolution. Now look at a certain country that is having riots. Hmmm…?
Now go forward to January – February 2003. I googled this also for the ASSes. Again which countries stopped the attempt by the US to enforce the 13 resolutions? Let me help you. They are having riots right now. The other two are identified in the UN Oil For Food Fiasco. These countries led the charge for the UN IAEA and UNMOVIC continued work on the ground. There is evidence certain countries were selling arms to Saddam as late as September 2002, when Bush went to the UN. There is ample documentation that Saddam thought the French would bottle us up in the Security Council. It’s out there DJ, I suggest you find it. Slowly being put out for press review. Other countries have talked about it in the foreign web sites.
@102
No, I didn’t get a tax cut. Not in real dollars. The $600 is long gone — Bush’s “inflation tax” ate it up. Yes, inflation is a tax. There is no free lunch. When the gov’t spends more than it takes it, the extra money in circulation is worth less. The rich who got over 90% of Bush’s tax cuts made out very well, but ordinary citizens are NOT better off.
GOP = party of fiscal irresponsibility
GOOP = party of cronyism, corruption, and greed
The GOP is proposing $50 billion of cuts to Medicare, Medicaid, pension insurance, and student loans that will hurt the poor and middle class, in order to give $70 billion of additional tax cuts to the rich — which will increase the deficit another $20 billion. Have Republicans no shame?
Rupert Lawn Dart Wabbet – Won’t return his 2001 tax rebate or his fiscal gains from 2002-2004. Yes, such forthrightness.
PuddyBud @ 106
90 % of your assertions are bullshit. I’ll refresh your memory: the IAEA and UNMOVIC inspectors provided no justification for a U.S. invasion. Russia, France, and Germany argued for continued inspections since they were working. Bush realized that the UN Security Council would not approve a resolution, so the US and Britain said “Fuck it” and decided to invade anyway. Most of the rest of the world (including the U.N. Secretary General) recognize that the U.S.’s invasion was illegal.
So, link to the MSM articles about the banned WMD that France, Germany and/or Russia was selling to Iraq after such weapons were banned.
Last Friday in the Barely Governor Gregiore loyal Seattle Times, columnist Danny Westneat comes out of the closet as ignorant of democracy. Westneat says that if we Washingtonians would just look at how the socialist government of Canada makes their…
Analogkid posted the tripe that lead to the Trackback @ 113.
Apparently, AnalogKid doesn’t understand what the terms “Democracy” and “Socialism” mean.
Hey EvergreenRailfan:
I’ve heard rumors of the same thing. It turns out that the land isn’t actually worth much ($70 Million or so), though I do agree with you that why waste the effor by selling it?
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....ail09.html
You know what the real sad part is? I voted for the monorail the first 4 times and against it this time. But our former monorail directors are taking this loss really personally and essentially telling the city to go to hell about keeping the land.
Guys, I know the monorail was your baby, but can’t you at least try to leave some kind of positive legacy for transit in the city?
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.....ail10.html
“If by a ‘Liberal’ they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people — their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties — someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a ‘Liberal,’ then I’m proud to say I’m a ‘Liberal.'”
John Fitzgerald Kennedy, Sr. September 14, 1960
Rest in Peace, Mr. President. You are missed.
Elmer Pudd-
Dumbshit of the Century.