I spend way too much time blogging, and when asked how I can afford it, I usually rationalize away the financial hardship by saying I am investing in my future. At some point I hope to make a living in politics or media — or in that nether-world that lies in between — and to that end I have made no secret of my desire to pursue a career in talk radio, a medium to which I am ideally suited for all the right and wrong reasons.
And so with this career goal in mind, it was with some ambivalence that I approached the controversy over KVI’s shameless promotion of I-912, the anti-road maintenance initiative. On the one hand, I was one of the first “media watchdogs” to publicly express outrage over how blatantly John Carlson and Kirby Wilbur used their shows to actively advertise, organize and fundraise for I-912; without them, the initiative campaign simply would not exist. On the other hand, I’m no dummy — when I get my own radio show I plan to take a page from the KVI playbook and be just as active in promoting progressive initiatives, causes and candidates. It’s not only good politics, it’s damn good for business.
Last week Kirby and I discussed this issue on the air, and I admitted that I had great empathy for his situation, and certainly wouldn’t want the hassle myself of filing PDC reports based on my on-air activities. And before Judge Christopher Wickham ruled last week that KVI would indeed have to report their efforts on I-912’s behalf as an in-kind contribution, I expressed strong reservations to a fellow activist, that such regulation would skate dangerously close to violating the First Amendment.
That said, I think today’s editorial in the Seattle Times defending John and Kirby totally misses the point… perhaps intentionally. [“In support of free speech, and KVI“]
Two years ago, when the federal campaign-finance law reached the U.S. Supreme Court, dissenting justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas warned that something like this would happen. We doubted it; it seemed clear to us that the law applied to ads, not editorial content. We thought Thomas was over the top when he said campaign-finance law was leading toward “outright regulation of the press.”
Judge Wickham has made a step toward just that. It is a dangerous, unconstitutional ruling. The losers need to appeal it and the appellate courts need to reverse it.
But this case is not simply about freedom of the press, for two reasons. First, John and Kirby are neither journalists nor editorialists… they are partisan political operatives who just happen to have their own radio shows. And second, it appears to reasonable people (like an elected, Thurston County judge) that in so blatantly promoting I-912, John and Kirby crossed the line from editorializing — or even advocacy — to advertising.
John and Kirby actively organized the I-912 campaign, using the public airwaves to raise the money and sign up the volunteers needed to get the initiative onto the ballot. In so doing they turned long segments of their radio shows into little more than extended, political infomercials. Now that’s their right. But the people also have a right to demand full disclosure of political advertising, as required by the Public Disclosure Act… which was enacted by initiative with an overwhelming electoral majority.
To uniformly deride Judge Wickham’s decision, as the Times does, as “outright regulation of the press,” is to argue that corporations or wealthy individuals should be exempt from our campaign finance and public disclosure laws, by virtue of owning a TV or radio station… or even a “family newspaper.” Which may explain why the Times is so vociferous in their defense of KVI.
Disturbed by the financial implications of his own mortality, Times publisher Frank Blethen is one of the nation’s most vocal and angry opponents of the death tax estate tax… every time Frank sneezes, his snot shows up on the op/ed page in the form of an editorial demanding the tax’s repeal. Now we learn that a conservative business group is planning an initiative for the 2006 season to repeal Washington’s estate tax. (Or so the Times wants us to believe.)
As it is, the Times editorializes monthly for the tax’s repeal, and there isn’t a reporter or editor on staff who doesn’t know that the quickest way to the boss’s heart is to pander to his pet political project. So we can only imagine what kind of support an estate-tax-repeal initiative might garner from Frank and his minions.
Should such an initiative receive a disproportionate amount of flattering, biased coverage, well, that wouldn’t be all that unusual for a newspaper of the Times’ stature. And of course, a steady stream of anti-estate-tax editorials is already the status quo.
But where might the Times be tempted to cross the line in support of an actual initiative? Frequent sidebars instructing and encouraging readers to contribute time and money, or informing them of the locations where petitions can be signed or picked up? A daily tally of the campaign’s fundraising target or signature gathering totals, with a call to action? Actually printing a copy of the petition on the op/ed page itself?
While I admit that the line between advocacy and advertising is blurry, and that I am uncomfortable at the thought of a bureaucrat or even a judge having the power to determine when this line is crossed, there is no question that the line exists, and to ignore it is to open our system to inevitable abuse. If media outlets can use their enormous power to run political campaigns outside the established regulatory framework, they will.
And in fact… KVI has. John and Kirby crossed the line, and to make matters worse, they used the public airwaves to do it. The people of Washington have a right to know the true value of KVI’s in-kind contribution to the I-912 campaign. Filing these reports may be a hassle, but then, so is democracy.
UPDATE:
Initiative 912 has apparently qualified for the ballot with over 420,000 signatures, which just goes to show the political power and influence a station like KVI can have. This is just another example of why progressives need their own local talk radio hosts who are willing to be just as entertaining, just as partisan, and just as politically strategic as John and Kirby. It’s time to even the playing field.
could the line be ‘fund raising’?
Thats a long ways from advocating.
I’m rather accustomed to seeing voters guides published in the local papers before elections, illustrating who the editorial board of the paper thinks I ought to vote for, and what measures I should vote for or against. Would this also be considered to be campaigning or an in-kind contribution?
Radio Stations, at least used to be, held up to high standards, but until the Reagan Administration’s last day, fairness was one of them. There are only so many frequencies, and other people would want them too. In the Seattle Market, only KVI is liscensed to operate at 570 KHZ at 50KW. Just like only KIRO is liscenesed to operate at 710 KHZ at 50KW. Also, some frequencies that are close can overlap, as 1090 does on my walkman.
Would you hold Dave Ross of Kiro to the same standard? He was a registered candidate for several months on the air, before finally leaving his show after the convention.
What about Mike Webb whose anti Bush hatred is blatant? Should he have had to report to the PDC for the Kerry campaign?
What about Al Franken and other Air America folks who are blatantly anti republican? Should they report for support of ther DNC?
CBS for its anti Bush reports?
And what about blogs? Should a blog like DailyKos who boasts 700,000 hits be subjected to this too?
The Times makes recommendations and endorsements all the time. They can easily see that they are the next target.
I think they caught the point very well.
Goldy: “I plan to… be just as active in promoting progressive initiatives, causes and candidates.”
So that means you’ll promote the best IDEA, not just the MoveOn-esque talking points that guide much of your content now? “Progressive” does not mean Left. It means being interested in PROGRESS — open-minded to the Right or Left.
“First, [X] and [Y] are neither journalists nor editorialists… they are partisan political operatives who just happen to have their own [radio shows, columns, etc].”
Interesting… Replace X and Y with left-leaning “journalists” and you’ll sound just like those you deride for suggesting the MSM is biased. What’s fair for the goose…
Ya’ll are stalinistas… ok, who’s going to be the agency to judge whether Dave Ross is getting free time, or gay rights groups peddling their initiatives or causes are getting like kind that is reportable, or. You mean when Danny Westneat or Nicole Brodeur rants about some great cause, its ok? What happens if they come out pro the gas tax?
You mean if Kiro TV say runs puff pieces on Sonics and Key Arena that has to be reported?
Time to go re-read Animal House and 1984. Hope this new agency monitoring all this is named Ministry of Truth.
“animal farm” isn’t it? I’m not sure a frat-party has much to do with big brother :p
Ross, like Carlson before him, had to be shamed into leaving his show while running.
I’ll say it again. Fundraising > Advocating
Holy shit are the rightwing posters above fucking stoopid. Can’t you dipshits actually break down an issue and thoughtfully analyze it?
Goldy, I know this goes against your philosophy, but you need an IQ test before people can post here. Let these iditos post their ignorant crap elsewhere, like http://www.DroolingForDummies.org
I hate to say it, But I completely agree with Goldy on this.
DJ @ 9
Be more specific in your criticism. Other than some of the name-calling and hyperbole…
Asking if Dave Ross is in the same category is a legitimate question (karl). Challenging hypocritical statements is legitimate.
Windie’s comment about where the line should be drawn is a valid contribution.
Where’s your complaint??
goldy….come on , YOU of all people are saying that KVI crossed the line? what do you do everyday?
you should be very disturbed that a judge is trying to limit free speech………but why am i not surprised that you are not?
oh, that’s right…because it isn’t “your side”…sheesh.
and dj…..get a dictionary….rumor has it that there are ALOT of words that have more than four letters in them…it’s boring man.
Oops on animal farm vs. house; unsure what freudian slip i committed.
Will churches get equal time if a Wiccan gets time on the air?
If King TV does a nightly business report, will green party people get equal time to promote ecologically sound, anti business alternatives?
Will TV stations have to give female sports equal coverage?
DJ; what’s the complicated issue here? Free speech in the Bill of Rights. Checkmate.
(gotta love Bush’s chance of conservative justice, with decisions like this and the Eminent domain one coming out of state and federal courts. Sure energizes me not to want another pro-govt/anti people justice.)
and goldy…john and kirby are always really nice to you aren’t they? they treat you with respect, don’t make fun of your voice [like some others do] and then you what?
bite the hand that feeds you?
Charles @2,
I think I clearly stated that mere editorializing does not cross the line. Editorial boards are permitted to make their endorsements, as are John and Kirby.
Karl @4.
Dave Ross was not an official candidate while he was on the air. He left the show when he filed. He also did not overtly uses his show to promote his own candidacy.
And again, I admit that the line is blurry and I’m not sure exactly where it should be drawn, but I think in this case, KVI crossed it by their active fundraising and organizing efforts.
Mark @5,
I’m saying, that given the opportunity, I plan to cross the line too, and whether I like it or not, I should be subjected to the same reporting requirements. I’m not being hypocritical.
Ghost @12,
I haven’t crossed the line because I haven’t actively organized or fundraised for a specific campaign. But even if I did, my activities have no fair market value (or at least, very little.) KVI, on the other hand, charges a lot of money to advertise on John and Kirby’s shows.
Ghost @15,
Did I attack John or Kirby? No… in fact I wrote that I hope to emulate them, that is the sincerest form of flattery. And FYI, they don’t have me on the show because I agree with them. They have me on because I put up a good, entertaining fight. This show biz.
Goldy–
First of all, you aren’t ever going to get a Radio program. Pinch yourself and wake up. Your voice is wretched and hideous…Stefan was kind to call it Pee Wee Herman-like.
In addition, most of your BS is boring. And last, but not least, you ain’t that bright. Oh, you are quite knowledgable about issues when you have a chance to think and reflect….as you do before you post a thread. But as far as thinking on your feet and interacting for 3 hours with a live audience FUGGEDABOUTIT!
Actually, I think blogging is your thing.
Frankly, I would love to see you on the air….it’s the Republican Party’s dream! But I would hate to see your life ruined by what would be an obvious flop!
Goldy, I hate to be so Cynical about your dream but damn….prove me wrong! This is America. I fucking salute you for trying.
It was still the Dave Ross Show when he was actively running for office. After every break “Welcome to the Dave Ross Show, filling in for Dave is (insert guest host). Then Hi, I’m (insert guest host) filling in for Dave Ross.
Bottom line, they still used his name very frequently every day.
of course they used his name every day. How much do you think that name is worth to KIRO?
He’s the best (and best respected) radio personality in seattle, and is known nationwide. They’d be fools not to use it.
oh goldy.come on…..
yes, you did attack them…it was just a passive aggressive attack.
did you ever stop to think for a moment that maybe, just maybe ,they have you on the show so the listeners can hear another view?
not everyone is as cynical and manipulative as most liberals sadly seem to be.
i, personnally, like listening to your views. i don’t often agree, but sometimes i do and i think you do a good job of it.
maybe it’s time for everyone to step back and rethink their positions.what is happening in this country right now is a “man chews off own foot” scenario.it’s not about conservatives versus liberals….we actually do have a big bad wolf at the door and he sure isn’t american.
if this was dave ross the judge ruled against, i KNOW you would be screaming bloody murder right now. and just how intellectually honest is that?
if you can’t take any scenario and say this is the right thing to do no matter who is on the other side….then you need to re adjust yourself…….
and windie…dave ross is a complete tool. i don’t know who you think you are kidding with that best and most respected baloney. most people have never heard of him……..get real.
Cynical @18,
Of course, you’re right. What was I thinking? Thanks for setting me straight.
Ghost @21,
And you KNOW this how? How intellectually honest is that?
goldy…..i KNOW based on your past performance. you have never [that i have seen] done anything but make excuses for democrats and slam republicans. when republicans do something good you put your “yeah BUT…” spin on it……..
goldy…sadly i have another classic example of the “win at all costs” mentallity of liberals. you know your commenter “john”? well, in the oldest tradition of nutty liberals everywhere [tire slashing,keying cars etc.]since he can’t out argue me he is now assaulting my site with spam. fortunately for me[and sadly for him] he is obviously no rocket scientist……
but so typical.
i would sure like to see all of us shun people with this mentality….no matter what “side” they are on, wouldn’t you?
then maybe we could all really talk……
xmas,
That’s not me. Record the ip address and e-mail it to Goldy and Goldy can verify that it’s not mine. That is if you want to trust Goldy and Goldy wants to act as a go-between.
And yep, typical of nutty rightists, they’re quick to jump to the wrong conclusions!
And one more thing, call me paranoid but I’m not going to visit your site anymore even though it’s been at least a couple weeks since I did. I commented maybe twice.
You’re way of arguing mostly through throwing childish and tired right-wing cliches doesn’t fly and is pretty much laughable. So I’m not going to engage you even here.
Enjoy Utah!
dear john….remember when you commented on my site? guess what? same email address. so if it isn’t you, someone is doing a really good job of spoofing you.
no worries here though……from me….i just thought it was fairly typical of the no free speech stance most liberals take.
you know…i do trust goldy…i think, for the most part, goldy is a very stand up guy.
Ghost @24,
Not so. Try typing “jarrett” into my search field. Not only have had nothing but nice things to say about Reps. Fred Jarrett (R-Mercer Island) and Skip Priest (R-Federal Way), but I’ve actually gone out of my way to plug one of their bills.
But I think you are a bit confused as to what my role is here. My role is to support progressive candidates and causes, and each day I chose two or three subjects from a myriad of choices. If you want somebody to take up the Republican side, go over to (u)SP.
I would suggest, after 20 years of working IN broadcasting, that everyone on this discussion (myself included) bone up on CURRENT FCC rules.
Reagan threw out the Equal Time clause years ago. Airwaves are owned by us, the people. A license is given to allow someone to use it. Rules apply regarding what is considered CONTENT / Programming from what is considered Advertising or Underwriting.
To discuss an issue is considered content. To report on an issue is considered news, and that is usually considered content as well. To have a call to action on a regular basis is what broadcasters are usually paid for… AKA a commerical on a commercial broadcaster such as KVI/KIRO/KOMO etc. or in a more basic fact form with no call to action, as an underwriting sponsor message on a non commercial broadcaster such as KPLU / KUOW / KEXP / KBCS etc.
When the call to action is repeated often, and beyond a specific interview, most stations CHARGE for this.
It gets grey fast, but as I understand the case, what the Judge is saying is some of the content went beyond CONTENT and should be considered ADVERTISING. This is neither stalinism or big brother… just the FCC rules that have been around since 1934 or so and State Elections Laws that have been around two decades or more…
All the judge is saying is the conversation went beyond content, involved calls to action, and therefore should be considered ADVERTISING… AS such, it falls under the rules this state has about Polictical reporting of ADVERTISING.
I have long felt that KVI has been in the gray zone a number of times about this issue… far more than KIRO… KVI hosts charter busses, lead excursions and events to lobby, and so on. Thats fine, and legal… but it SHOULD be considered beyond basic radio content, and as such, should fall under guide lines that govern the politics of this state.
If you take a public position, and then use the airwaves to lead an action on behalf of that position, it appears to the judge that falls under our state’s campaign rules… hence the need to report and account for it.
And while some conservatives get flustered about the so called liberal media and so called liberal judges shutting them up, I would remind them that overall, the numbers show about a 5 to 1 ratio of Conservative broadcasters to liberal… Just review revenue, audience and outlets (number of stations / power/signal of those stations) of Rush vs. AAR and Fox vs. PBS/NPR. The media is as liberal as the mega corps that own them… Liberals like GE, Clearchannel, Entercom and Disney…
Mark
“Be more specific in your criticism. Other than some of the name-calling and hyperbole… Asking if Dave Ross is in the same category is a legitimate question (karl). Challenging hypocritical statements is legitimate.”
Sorry, Mark, I should have excluded your comment above my post which was not so inane.
But, voter guides? Al Franken (or Rush Limbaugh)? New reports on CBS (or any other network)? Blogs????? Statements from gay rights groups???? TV pieces on Sonics and Key Arena needing to be reported? WTF?
None of these cases seem to compare to the “KVI initiative,” where a huge chunk of the station’s resources were, in essence, dedicated to promoting a specific initiative. (The Rossi discussion is closer and appreciated).
christmasghost @ 12
“and dj…..get a dictionary….rumor has it that there are ALOT of words that have more than four letters in them…it’s boring man.”
Go fuck yourself, christmasghost! You don’t set the tone for this blog. If you don’t like it, crawl back to your own blog.
goldy…..”But I think you are a bit confused as to what my role is here. My role is to support progressive candidates and causes, and each day I chose two or three subjects from a myriad of choices. If you want somebody to take up the Republican side, go over to (u)SP.”
goldy…you make my point for me. i would think that your role would be to support whatever is right….not just a bunch of people that you agree with personally but aren’t the best choice for EVERYONE.
that’s kinda sad really…i guess i over-estimated you.
i prefer to be on the side of humanity….not a party affiliation.
@ 28
Oh my, sue me I’m weak!
Xmas what kind of a high-tech business do you run? A collections agency?
The spammer spidered your site and harvested my nonsensical e-mail address and then used that same e-mail address to post his spam.
Why did he do that? To defeat lame weblog spam filters! Why haven’t you taken adequate measures by now? Do you see spam on HA.org?
No wonder you’re so anti-tax – your business must need all the breaks it can possibly get. One penny on your gross earnings for one year is obviously too much!
righton @ 14
“DJ; what’s the complicated issue here? Free speech in the Bill of Rights. Checkmate.”
Ummm. . . righton, the issue is not about free speech. Who said anything whatsoever about limiting KVIs right to do what they did? It is about whether or not they must report their activitiies as a political contriubtion.
For an initiative, there is no contribution limit, so KVI can dedicate their entire facilities to promoting the initiative if they wish, and all they have to do is tally up the cost of doing so and fill out the paperwork.
If it were a political candidate rather than an initiative (or, interestingly, a WA judge), then KVI does have their free speech rights limited to the max contribution allowed by law.
Hey, ya wanna get together for a game of chess?
john…i didn’t really want to turn on comment authorization. it also filters out real comments. like i said…it’s not a problem…just an observation.and i am a big fan of free speech.
your nonsensical email…thank you for the laugh….but why didn’t you use your real email hmmm? big talk ….and that’s all?
i do not “run” the high tech business, i am on the board of directors and the acting CFO….that must be what you are referring to? that’s why it was my decision to move the company to another state.it was a quality of life for employees/fiduciary responsibilty decision on my part.
collections…..hhe heh heh…that’s pretty good. no, it’s actually bio tech.
Greg @30,
Thanks for the detailed comment explaining the legal distinction between content and a call to action.
@ 36
.but why didn’t you use your real email hmmm? big talk ….and that’s all?
LMAO! And get spammed myself?!? Really thinking things through Xmas!
CFO!?! for a biotech company? I wouldn’t want you keeping my books! You must be a real wiz-kid, idiot savant with the figures with heavy emphasis on IDIOT!
And in fact… KVI has. John and Kirby crossed the line, and to make matters worse, they used the public airwaves to do it. The people of Washington have a right to know the true value of KVI’s in-kind contribution to the I-912 campaign.
First of all Goldy how typical of a leftist to turn on people who have given an undeserving person such as yourself an opportunity for exposure.
Secondly, I did notice that Dave Ross was never required to submit HIS PDC forms for his on air radio advocacy!
Your radio voice is so bad you will never get show Goldy. Perhaps you could see a specialist and have something done about it.
What you are saying Mr. Goldstein ties directly in with the fairness doctrine. The whole article is available at online at
wikipedia
But the short version is that in
Red Lion Broadcasting Co. v. FCC (1969)
in a unanimous decision, the (Supreme) Court held that:
… the fairness doctrine was consistent with the First Amendment. Writing for the Court, Justice White argued that spectrum scarcity made it “idle to posit an unbridgeable First Amendment right to broadcast comparable to the right of every individual to speak, write, or publish.” The Court held that the FCC’s fairness doctrine regulations enhanced rather than infringed the freedoms of speech protected under the First Amendment.
In 1987, the Reagan appointed members of the FCC eliminated most of the doctrine because it allegedly “inhibited rather then enhanced free speech”. There is of course a useful four letter word for this, and the FCC is full of it. By 2000, the Court of Appeals for Washington D.C. put the final nail to the coffin by ordering the FCC to justify the remaining rules requiring equal time for political editorializing. Insread the FCC chose to drop the remaining rules.
Because of this, in 2005 there are only 3 independent TV news shows not under corporate control that still voluntarily practice the fairness doctrine, one of which is a comedy (The Daily Show) and two which are weekly’s (PBS’s NOW and Frontline). State Rep. Mark B. Cohen of Philadelphia says it all:
“The fairness doctrine helped reinforce a politics of moderation and inclusiveness. The collapse of the fairness doctrine and its corollary rules blurred the distinctions between news, political advocacy, and political advertising, and helped lead to the polarizing cacophony of strident talking heads that we have today.”
I think greg@30 put this topic away. I notice that the righties aren’t even trying to respond…
re: Ross, you know he has a nationally syndicated bit for CBS, right? And that he’s filled in for other well known commentators?
john……..well, thankfully for you i doubt you’ll ever have to worry about making those decisions. the CFO doesn’t keep the books….good grief. get real. and as far as the email thing…good point…funny thing is , i never had a problem until your snotty little email came in…coincidence? nah…i’m not a big believer in coincidences.
Goldy: Am I to believe that you are hailing a dissent from Scalia and Thomas as useful information? Yeeeessssss! SOmone from HA who agrees with Scalia and Thomas. It has only taken what, four weeks for you liberal lefties to admit that Scalia and Thomas look at the merits of each issue? Please Goldy, tell me you secretly like how these two SCOTUS justices evaluate the law!!!
Now regarding KVI and their on-air personalities, one has to look at the company. If the company supports them, where is the problem? What are the laws in WA State?
BTW if I take a transfer to WA State, where should I live up there? I like the lack of income taxes. I was thinking of Snohomish County. I see King County has issues.
@ 41
Last bit of speculation for your benefit.
Perhaps the majority of your commenters do not leave their e-mail addresses for fear of being spammed and your comment board allows this. I leave my fake one as is my habit – most comment boards require it.
If you’re getting spam sent directly to your e-mail box instead of comment spam – you know, the kind with lots of links to questionable places, then it fits with another scenario – your email address is exposed on your blog and being harvested by the spam spider along with any other e-mail addresses in comments. The spammer sends e-mail to you addressed from my fake address and others on your site, again to defeat any spam filter on your e-mail inbox.
I normally charge for this kind of consulting advice so consider it a parting gift as you seem to be headed to sunnier climes.
420,518 FUCK YOUS GOLDY!
420,518 — probably not enough signatures, right Goldy?
Goldy, you could replace JP Patches except I wouldn’t want my
kid to listen to your crap.
we shouldn’t be surprised that it got sigs, what with 6 hours a day free advertising on a highly rated station for what… 2 months?
Thats the whole point of this discussion!
DJ and other leninists..
Wow, not a free speech advocate to be found. You mean if the gov’t can tally, add up, what is said, and decide if its content, or editorial, or issues, or whatever, than tape a campaign finance law to it, then they can regulate it?
You then must mean if Seattle passes some anti discrimination law, and the Radio station devotes time to it, they have to report that to the authorities? You mean, say if I had a lot of personal money and wanted to buy a radio station, and promote my issues, I couldn’t? What is I was a liberal advocacy front (air america), or say the United Farmworkers? I can’t (unrestricted) peddle my thoughts, issues?
the minute you regulate commercial speech, you also open the door to regulating all speech.
I guess I shouldn’t play with you guys; you likely think campus speech codes are also good.
IN CASE YOU HAVEN’T HEARD!!!
http://www.orbusmax.com/
420,000+ Signatures have been turned. The NO NEW GAS TAX Initiative 912 will be on the ballot.
It should be a referendum …… “Emergency” my Ass.
This is just the start……wait ’til next election,
there will be a whole bunch of politcos voted out of office.
Richard @46,
No, 420,000 signatures should be enough.
pbj@39
I have suggested to Goldy that he see a specialist to improve his voice. However, it’s a toss-up on whether Goldy should see a Nose and Throat Specialist or a Urologist because from what I have heard, it sounds to me like Goldy suffers from talking with his testicles in his throat!
go after his stupid ideas, not his voice (its sounds fine to me)
@54
embarassing as it is, my respect for righton just went up a bit. Dealing with something substantive rather than the usual ‘anything to hurt ’em’ crap we’re used to from the reps is a really nice touch :)
windie@55
Goldy’s voice is hideous. Just because we pretend it’s not, doesn’t make it any more soothing. Radio is a AUDIO medium moron. You have to have a decent radio voice to survive. 3 hours of Goldy would drive even the most LEFTIST of PINHEADS stark raving mad! It’s not going to happen.
When someone gets a good jab in on Goldy and he gets excited, his voice goes up 2-3 octaves higher. Any higher and only the dogs would hear it.
Oh boy, KVI gives you so much attention, John even called you a “prominent liberal” and then you just turn around and dis them. all I can say is 420,570. per KVI 570 4:18 pm
I-912
No new gas tax.
Diaphram Goldy!! and please not the birth control kind ok?
Char–
That’s it…Goldy has a diaphram in his throat.
And all along I thought it was his nuts!
It’s good for the state to have radio stations like KVI and talk show hosts like Kirby Wilbur and John Carlson. The Peoples’ Democratic Socialist Republic of King County gets way too much free press and endorsements from the Seattle Times, the PI, and the local TV stations. King County is so liberal and at odds with the rest of the state that I think we should put a referendum on the ballot to kick the county out of Washington. Let them be their own state.
dj @9
Wow, who excrementitiously violated your Cheerios bowl this time? Perhaps you shouldn’t store the bowl so close to the water closet… you know, it invites the guilty to the commission of the crime…
Goldy you want free speech, only as long as it jibes with your ideas.
Partisan political operatives? Aren’t we all? You certainly are.
Disclosure is the first step to regulation. And ultimately, that’s what you want, if you don’t agree with a particular view and that view is coming from a loud enough voice.
Dangerous and Un-American. But then, so is most of what you say.
Hard cases make bad law, Goldy. In this case, I’m inclined to lean in the direction of press freedom. I agree Carlson and Wilbur are political operatives, not journalists. The trouble with drawing a line, though, is that it will be a shifting line drawn by bureaucrats whose definition of “speech” and “advocacy” will change with every new administration. We don’t need that kind of interference in our media — even in our hack media.
righton @ 49
“Wow, not a free speech advocate to be found. …
I am not sure why you addressed this comment to me. I made no statements supporting or rejecting free speech on this thread. When you brought up the topic earlier, I simply pointed out that the issue with KVI was not about limiting free speech; rather, it was about reporting the commercial value of the speech. Hell, I have not even taken a pro- or con- stance on that issue here!
I haven’t had time to read this whole comment thread, so maybe you intended your comment for someone else?
”I guess I shouldn’t play with you guys; you likely think campus speech codes are also good.
I am not sure what, exactly, “campus speech codes are” (and I work for a university). But, from the sound of it, I am guessing I would strongly disagree with the concept.
A liberal radio station won’t succeed. The problem is that liberals don’t listen to talk radio. The market is already saturated with liberal ideas. Almost every TV station, newspaper, weekly magazine, and spokeperson lean to the left. Your voice will be lost in the crowd.
And on the radio, you would not be able to use fuck, shit, etc. to get your points across and in place of real arguments. You’d be pretty boring without that crutch.
There’s an oligarchy of correctly placed liberals in all of the prominent voices in our society, but although that generates a loud chorus, it pales in comparison to the sheer numbers of average Joes and Janes out there, even in Washington that are much more conservative.
I am fairly amazed how many of you who like the wide open give-and-take on the internet are so interested in regulating other speech. The parsing of “journalist” vs “operative” is pretty disingenous. Who cares? As long as they are up front about their connection, or lack of such, to the campaign, let ’em talk!
I also disagree with limits on elections. If someone wants to contribute $10 million to Goldy to run for dog catcher, and discloses the fact to the world, great! We all know, or can find out, the source of the funds. Then make up your own mind. I’m tired of the nannies in the courts telling me what I can hear and can’t hear.
Goldy Loves Terror@ #64
The reason liberal talk radio can’t succeed is that it has no economic viability. What corporate sponsor will advertise to a market that advocates more government control, higher taxes and more regulation?
What is the Air America listener demographic? 14 – 23, maybe? Unemployed, bisexual, anti-war, anti-America, anti-business, anti-family, anti-choice. If you were a sales person for that station, who would you try to pitch first? Starbucks, then…
Can you imagine GM putting a few million into commercials knowing that the audience is willing to burn a lot full of new cars?
You can only go so far on government funding and anemic donations from Nambla and Glad.
GLT-
You must be from some compound in Idaho, man. All I see is all Right All the Time, and I’m pretty GD sick of it.
Air America is a breath of fresh air to me. It’s proof that we can have competing ideas and philosophies. Let people choose. Or are you afraid that they’ll go with their self-interest rather than your chickenshit ideology.
And Janet…I don’t remember Clinton limiting the attendance at his appearances to people who agreed with him. I like the way these guys promote free speech. It really must hack you guys off that the chimp’s popularity is well below Big Bill’s. Add that the Cheney administration will go down as the one with the MOST indictments and jail time, and the mess in the Middle East and we’ll have a new spin on shrub’s “trifecta”.
Guys you are being so tough on Goldy’s voice. Just think of the Hefty Trash Bag commercial with Gilbert. Their voices are very similar. Visualize ladies and gentlemen!
john…..why thank you so much for your helpful advice. i do appreciate it.however…and without sounding overly suspicious…is there some reason why with all the protections i do have this never happened until you posted on my site?
i would really like to think it is merely a coincidence, but it has never happened before.
but i do appreciate your “help”…..
Roger Rabbit @62
Well said, and I won’t even add any corollaries (no need for thanks)…
Rujax – remember that thing in the first amendment about freedom of assembly? Wouldn’t you rather he preach to the choir, then try to persuade the great unwashed?
If the left knew how to behave in public, they might get invited to more parties. Instead, they pull stupid pranks like the ladies in pink to disrupt other’s speech. You want a forum? Go pay for it.
Baynative@66
No the commercial breaks would be more like PBS “if you enjoy the type of programming we offer call 1-800-kiss-a lib and donate so we can continue this type of programming. Tune in this weekend for our fundraising telethon with ultra winger Goldy as comentaor”. That is how it would go.
Jenet-
Nannynanny booboo to you too.
Another tool.
If a radio station does not want to disclose the value of their advertising for a candidate or campaign, I say that is just fine.
As long as they do not use OUR (the public) airwaves.
John @ 26 “And yep, typical of nutty rightists, they’re quick to jump to the wrong conclusions!”
Are you talking about prr, or just xmasghost?
Rujax206: President down to 48% latest Poll. Only 38% of Americans approve of the Democrats in US Congress. Poll done internally by the Democrats themselves. Republicans at 43%.
For PacMan in CA, Arnold 37% approval, Democrat State Legislature 24%
“Never give in – never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.” – Winston Churchill
Donnageddon@74
But John did disclose the value as $100,000,000.00 so what is your fucking problem?
Puddybud@76
Try a poll on your governor….
Wow, Rujax, I’m impressed by the level of discourse! Did you learn that in college, or does it just come naturally?
I agree that all parties should have full disclosure. That includes the group opposed to Nonewgastax. So far, they have gone to court at least a couple of times, but no one knows who they are, or who is paying the bill. The sponsors listed on the web site are not true. They continually lie (really lie) about the petition drive, but no one seems to care, including the local media. Maybe it is because they are all at the same dinner parties. So much for oversight by a free press.
I heard Brent Bader (the spokesperson for the nonewgastax group) on Dave Ross’s show yesterday. His argument was that the gas tax is too high but the state is not spending enough money on roads.
I guess I now understand how the opposition thinks that road construction should be funded: money falling from the sky.
Hey–you’ve already got NPR (don’t kid yourself—on 9/11 it was reportedly the only station in town where people trying to blame us for all of it)
And you have HairAmerica (yes, I KNOW it’s AIR) and KIRO. Quit your whining and jump in. Ask to get hired on at KIRO. Mike Webb isn’t all that.
Puddy@68—
“Hefty Trash Bag Commercial with Gilbert”
PRECISELY!
A couple months ago, I said Goldy sounded like a hideous blending of Gilbert Gottfried and the 3 Chipmunks. Stefan hit on the Pee Wee Herman tones in Goldy’s voice.
But that Hefty Trash Bag Commercial is a hit!!
It would be perfect for Goldy since most of the shit that comes out of his mouth belongs in one of them there Hefty Bags!
Bax, it makes perfectly good sense – the gas tax is spent on a whole bunch of things, only a small percentage of which is road capacity. If the gas tax was going toward building roads, maybe there wouldn’t be so much opposition.
Cynical, of all the HA bloggers, I knew you would identify the double entendre!!!
Hmmm… As a recent visitor to Eastern Washington I happen to know that most of the reasoning supporters of I-912 used to get signatures and/or sign was not how the tax was implemented, but rather that a lion share of the funds raised were to be spent in Western Washington. Anyone up for creating an Initiative for 2006 that says all taxes raised in a county/region must be spent in that county/region?
Don’t know about y’all, but I’m tired of paying for thousands and thousands of miles of roads in Eastern Washington that are used by a small handful of people, while the roads used by hundreds of thousands of people over here in Western Washington fall into disrepair. I think we’d have a good chance of getting the Initiative on the ballot and approved.
Janet S. I propose a lane for people who CAN drive at high speed. Minimum Speed 75MPH. They have to prove they went to a Bob Bondurant Driving School. Most King County drivers would miserably fail the course! www . bondurant . com / courses / courses . html
Bax@80
No Bax we expect the money to actually go into the roads, not things like the “prevailing wage”.
Bobblehead@85
Actually the best initiative would be to split King County into its own state…adios Seattle
Puddybud@86
I took the traveling class they had at the Tacoma dome about 15 years ago, awsome class! I gained incredible amounts of knowledge as well as driving skill out of it. I would really like to fing the time for a refresher!
@ 75
Don, that swipe was meant for xmasghost who made a spurious accusation involving me in a previous post but it can be applied to just about all the wingers in this forum with the exception of maybe two or three – and even those are questionable at times
Bax, it makes perfectly good sense – the gas tax is spent on a whole bunch of things, only a small percentage of which is road capacity. If the gas tax was going toward building roads, maybe there wouldn’t be so much opposition.
The gas tax is required by the 18th amendment of the Washington Constitution to be spent on the state’s highway system. It’s spent on nothing else but roads.
No Bax we expect the money to actually go into the roads, not things like the “prevailing wage”.
Okay. So given the fact that there is a federal prevailing wage law, what impact would repealing the state law have? All projects that get federal money are required to pay prevailing wages. Pretty much every major highway project gets federal money.
Can you provide some specific information on how much money would be saved? I have a feeling I know the answer.
Bax@92
OK we pay the federal figure for the prevailing wage for as much as the feds kick in THEN we let the contractor negotiate the pay with his workers.
OK we pay the federal figure for the prevailing wage for as much as the feds kick in THEN we let the contractor negotiate the pay with his workers.
Not the way the law works. If you take federal money, which most projects do because there’s a ton of federal money available to match state $, you pay prevailing wage. It is very common for federal matching funds to exceed the state $ provided for a road project.
So far you’ve offered no real solutions. So basically you don’t want new roads because you’re supporting 912. That’s fine. Can you please then never complain again about traffic?
I would support new road construction only after an independant audit is performed and all matters of waste were explained. Until then I could care less if the DOT or any other arm of the government gets another dime.
Bax@94
Wrong Bax, Florida does it now.
Chuck@89: Did you driver the course in a front or rear wheel car? I prefer the course in a rearwheel car. Did you do the powerslide from the left or the right? How about the crash avoidance maneuver? How did you handle the panic stop?
Bax@94
http://www.gpo.gov/davisbacon/allstates.html
I suggest you look at what some of the other states (that leave the unions out of it and use real fiures) break down Bacon Davis
Well as I said it was some years ago, my memory is a bit fuzzy but I remember it was a week long and it taught this (at the time) young’un with a bulletproof personality and put me back a few rungs imediatly.
LIbs loving limits on free speech
What part of the 1st amendment says you can only speak freely if you disclose how you paid to do so? You mean the guy on the street corner has no obligation, while rich guy w radio station does?
I understand the nice part about knowing who is paying for the shows, but its not mandated in the constitution or bill of rights.
As for “its our public airwaves”, its also “our sidewalk”. We grant/sell rights to use the spectrum, but not to define the content within.
Does the future mean the city can decide not only if i can stay in my house (before taking it/emm domain) and also what I speak about (since i’m only using their property, pre-taking).
All you donks can parade as many speakers as you want… just dont screw with the rights of others and try to revive the fairness doctrine. Remember free speech is only free when it is truely free.
Roger #63,
You pretty much hit the nail on the head. I’ve worked on lots of campaigns that were on the wrong side of the Times and PI editorial boards, and while we groused that our opponents (usually mainstream corporate whores) should have to declare all of that free media as an in-kind contribution, it just doesn’t work that way.
BTW – KVI didn’t get 400,000+ to sign this thing – the zeitgeist is there (hell, I’m a progressive liberal and I collected 10 signatures from my friends because I think it is unconscienable to move forward with a $4 billion – or at least $8 billion w/interest and before cost overruns – one mile tunnel for the Viaduct, particularly since there is nearly $500 million in that budget to lower Aurora north of the Battery Street Tunnel – a boondoggle that has everything to do with Paul Allen and Hallivulcan and nothing at all to do with the need to retrofit the viaduct and seawall).
BTW – I’m not opposed to some gas tax increase, per se, but this year’s deal stinks to high heaven, and 912 will pass handily – even in King County (OTOH, right wingers, before you get too excited, Ron Sims is still gonna hand David Irons his ass)
KVI contributed $20,000 in kind in their estimation to the Initiative 912 campaign. If they thought they contributed nothing then they should have appealed the judges decision.
The decision does nothing to limit free speech anymore than a lobbyist in Olympia reporting how much they spend lobbying the Legislature limits their ability to lobby.
The citizens of this state when they passed the Public Disclosure Act in 1972 with a 72% yes vote said they wanted to know who was contributing money and resources for and against an initiative campaign.
The judge’s ruling has nothing to do with limiting free speech. In fact the law specificly excludes from the defition of contribution “A news item, feature, commentary or editorial in a regularly scheduled news medium …” Where KIRO and Carlson and Wilbur overstepped the line was going from discussion and reporting to advocacy and grassroots organizing, including telling people where to get petitions and how to contribute to the campaign. As such KIRO reported the monetary value of this airtime as an in kind contribution to the I-912 campaign. Just because one owns a radio station does not exempt one from reporting in kind contributions for or against an initiative. Because there is no longer a fairness doctrine, a measure of the value is what it would cost someone to buy this airtime to promote their initiative. One way to view it is that Carlson and Wilbur were advertising for the I-912 campaign.
Baloney; its anti-free speech wrapped in campaign finance laws. Where does the first amendment say Congress can monitor and report on the quality and quantity of what is said. Of course, I guess with the right people doing the interpreting, we could say Katie Couric oversteps when she attacks GOP guys, so they should report that too? Guess it just means we should be thankful Bush gets to appoint a coujple more Supremes..
Yesterday Washington State saw a tidal wave wash over the elitist state legislature and leave in its wake a group that should be quaking in their boots at their prospects in the November election. In 30 days the No New Gas Tax Initiative 912 group tu…
Steve,
KVI cannot appeal the ruling, they have no legal standing on the court case.
I 912 has to appeal it, and that appeal is under consideration.
maybe they should go after bloggers next?