King County has announced the unofficial results of the hand recount: Gregoire +47, Rossi -12, for a net 59 vote pickup for Gregoire. That leaves Gregoire leading statewide… by 10 votes.
Gregoire’s lead is likely to increase by over 100 votes, once the results of the 723 “misfiled” ballots are added in tomorrow afternoon.
Dino Rossi & Company have been urging Christine Gregoire to concede since election night, and now that the manual recount has confirmed that Gregoire is the actual winner, in a statutorily final way, it is time to return the favor. Progressive Majority has set up form where you can send a letter asking Dino Rossi to concede the governor’s race. Please join me in urging Rossi to do the right thing for the good of the state… and his future political career.
I just love irony.
Oh Please! Rossi won’t concede and everyone knows it. It’s going to be weeks or months before this is settled, like it or not.
Real… true, but what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
Exactly. Dems should step up the calls for Rossi to concede, throwing back everything he said (and then some). Even if it’s inevitable that the Repubs file a lawsuit, Dems need to keep the Repubs on the defensive now that the Repubs have lost.
This is not the end. Republicans will go ballistic now that they’re losing. Prepare for court challenges and contested elections.
But we’ve played hardball along with them so far, and we will continue to do so. We refuse to roll over and die.
Gregoire will certainly declare victory (and unless the 735 additional ballots surprisingly go against her, her victory will be certified); if Rossi refuses to concede, now that the election is *over*, it will just look petty.
Good – I’d like nothing more than for the Repubs to spend months “tilting at windmills” in WA state. It will help increase the democratic majority as the people in the middle see Repubs for the hypocrites they are.
If 261 vote lead was a tie and a 42 vote lead was tie, then what does a 10 vote lead equate to??? CG & Rossi must still be tied in the words of CG???
You people are insane, do you really think 10 votes is a mandate, when 261 was a tie? You dont even believe your own bullshit rhetoric.
Statistically, it amounts to a tie. But we don’t elect our Governor based on statistical measurements; we elect whoever won the most votes. Now we’re [just about] finished counting…so that’s that.
What, somebody claimed a mandate? That’s a stretch for sure. But hey, Angry Voter, if it’s good enough for George Bush…
Hey, Angry Voter…which one of us said ten votes was a mandate? I certainly didn’t say anything like that. No, I expect the GOP to contest this election. Had we had a manual recount first instead of a machine recount, we’d be past this by now.
But, what’s important is that we were able to do a manual recount. We aren’t hypocrites.
You see…we ended up needing a manual recount after all. The results have changed drastically. Instead of a 49 vote lead for Rossi, we have a 10 vote lead for Gregoire.
Another recount was needed in this close election. We paid for it, and it looks like our efforts paid off. We have obtained a more accurate count. Next step: back to the courts and a contested election.
Bottom line: Gregoire got more votes and she’d be ahead by more in the first place if King County hadn’t messed up. If Rossi and the R’s want to fight, to paraphrase Bush, “Bring ’em on!”
Jenny – right on…..The R’s thought that the Dems would not pony up the money- would make fuzzy decisions like cherry picking precincts…they believed their own unSound propaganda about this stae and he Dems……..unfortunately Gore was a poor model…..and Vance make a big mistake in the pissing match with Paul Brandt….Brandt pisses gallons not piddles….GOP keep Vance in Control….
Look for a totally empowered Democrat Party…new vision…new leaders…and a NEW MANDATE…..solve some of the problems…
School funding- give the schools the FIRST one percent of sales taxes off the top- no new taxes, just a real priority.
Roads, raise the gas tax for specific target projects, when funded, decrease the tax. Three priority projects, Seattle viaduct, bridge over the Columbia at Vancouver, and I-520 bridge. …Let’s GO.
HorsesAss.org is first out of the gates with the news: King County has released their numbers, and Gov.-elect Gregoire is le
My friends are here at the house with a quick- lets have a little bite and drink to celebrate. We are in the 37th District.- the Most hard core Dem dist. in the state, Rainier Valley.
We voted-again- and decided in the vote that we will show some kindness to R’s for one day. They are deflalted, defatted, disembowled so to speak. Tororrrow is do not gloat too much day, and offer some solace to any R’ you know. One day only. Remember they are nice people, just misguided, and believe their own hype/propaganda.
Don’t hug them as they don’t like touchie feelies- and can bite.
Yes tell the repubs we took a page from their Bush v. Gore playbook! Stealing an election has never been so easy. Go ahead and try to find your military votes. It doesn’t matter because we have the KC canvassing board and can “find” as many votes as needed. Even I’m laughing at the 10 vote difference. It’s just brilliant not too many to raise questions by the media but enough to make it look legit. Beautiful!!!
Just found out that my sons provisional ballot wasnt counted…
This Rocks.
Recounts: 2 to 1
Balloting: 0 to 1
I’ll be saying thanks these holidays that our governor will not be a knee-jerk fan of deregulation in an age just four years after the deregulated energy market bled our state out for $2Billion.
Chuck – what county – raise a fuss- we well help you……why not?
The latest news from NEO-CON Josef. Brent, you’ll want to see this. This is what he printed on his blog:
THE ROSSI CAMPAIGN IS RIGHT NOW TAKING CALLS AT 425.646.7202 REGARDING DISENFRANCHISED MILITARY VOTES ONLY!
In other words, they want to know where the dienfranchised military votes are. . . so we can have them outweigh the votes of the druggies and the felons!
I understand you’re angry, Josef. But calling Democratic voters druggies and felons?. You’re rapidly losing any shred of credibility you once had….and you’ve obviously lost touch with reality.
Sorry about your depression, of course…but this is uncalled for.
I personally will never lay off the neo-cons and their supporters, even for a second. Those of you who have decided to be nice to them for a day might want to consider only being nice to Rossi voters who are disappointed but not sore losers. The mentally unstable sore losers such as Joseph deserve nothing but the utmost contempt and disrespect.
I hope everyone’s watching the Republican slight-of-hand as they try and convince everyone that ballots not received by election day or ballots that were rejected because of signature mismatches are the same as ballots never considered once. Regardless, for every military or other Rossi rejected ballot the Repubs find, the Democrats can find more. KC had the strictest standards for signature matching in the State. And in other counties it’s not like only Rossi votes were rejected.
Republicans had their chance, don’t let them continue their hypocrisy.
(not received should be not postmarked – my bad)
The repubs have been real quiet about the Secretary of State in all this. I guess it’s kind of hard to explain when a member of your own party, in an official capacity, disagrees with you… Or will they soon be ranting about recalling him too?
Hey, Brent, ease up. Be gracious in victory. (Do keep fighting to retain the victory and its legitimacy). Save your “utmost contempt and disrespect” for something more serious, eh? Sore losers make themselves look bad; they need no help from you. Josef (with an ‘f’ at the end) seems to be fitting that description, but mentally unstable he ain’t. And mentally unstable folks deserve our sympathy and help (you just don’t need to pay any heed to their arguments).
People who are mentally unstable in general need our sympathy and help, but people who become mentally unstable because their candidate lost should be treated in the same way small children should be when they cry “It’s not fair! It’s mine! My turn!” and then resort to name-calling without articulating themselves.
Chuck — what county?Let us help — Between us on this blog there is a lot of talent and a lot of very well connected folks. – will work hard to get that ballot counted. Really.
Chuck’s son’s vote can only be counted if the canvassing board in his county decides to add it before Reed certifies the results of the manual count, which will more than likely occur tomorrow.
The Supreme Court decision was based upon interpretation of “certification date” as being the (future) date when Sam Reed certifies the manual recount, instead of the November 17, 2004 date when county election officials certified the county election results. (Judge Arendt in Pierce County had interpreted the date to be November 17, 2004, so she made a different ruling, which was overturned for this reason.)
Having a future date, instead of November 17, 2004, allowed King County to reconsider, consider, or at least count the (up to) 723 ballots which were rejected without comparison to signatures.
Similarly, having a future date for “certification date” should allow all of the absentee ballots received from military members after November 17, 2004 to be counted, and also allow correction of any signature mismatches that were submitted (or offered for submission) to county officials after November 17, 2004.
The issue is not whether ballots (a) received in the mail after 11/17/2004, (b) with signature corrections submitted after 11/17/2004, or (c) not checked against signatures at all prior to 11/17/2004 — are the same. They obviously are three separate categories. However, the “certification date” is the same — now a date a few days in the future, instead of 11/17/2004 — and ballots in all three categories must now be counted.
Gregoire may still win if ALL of the votes are counted. But now, with Gregoire (finally) being a few votes ahead, a lot of her supporters now seem to be saying that they no longer want ALL of the votes counted.
Democrats wanted the canvassing boards to be forced to respond to issues raised by registered, disenfranchised voters. Republicans argued that they should not be forced to do so and the Supreme Court agreed with them. The Supreme Court in its ruling today stated that canvassing boards have the right to re-canvass if they decide to do so, based on irregularities or errors in the returns. A handful of other counties have already done this and the votes have already been counted. If new issues of voter disenfranchisement are to be raised, they must be taken up with each individual county’s canvassing board. If the canvassing board decides not to re-canvass the ballots in question, the Supreme Court has already ruled that that is their legal right. The Republicans are now taking the opposite position they took in the first Supreme Court case because their candidate is behind. Their hypocrisy is repugnant.
Hey… it’s nice to know neighbors are reading my blog. I live right near Graham Hill Elementary, in the heart of the 37th.
Chuck… I’m curious as to the circumstances.
I know we disagree on virtually everything, but I really do want to use this whole debacle to push through some electoral reform that both sides will welcome. Clearly, the military ballot issue is something that needs to be dealt with. But I need to learn more about the situations under which people vote provisional.
Republicans aren’t asking counties to recanvass the results. However, counties now have that right under RCW 29A.60.210 until Sam Reed finally certifies this manual recount. A recanvass is a procedure that a county does on its own initiative to correct apparent mistakes — such as the systematic exclusion of up to 723 ballots in King County without any signature comparison.
Instead, the Republicans are asking that absentee ballots received after 11/17/2004 and prior to the (newly interpreted and future) “certification date” be counted. They are also asking that signature corrections submitted prior to this “certification date” be considered as well.
King County is planning to allow signature corrections to be submitted on any of the 723 ballots in question, in the event that the signatures don’t appear to match — even though the vast majority of these voters were already asked for signature correction and failed to respond. Since the WA Supreme Court has extended the “certification date” beyond the previously understood date of 11/17/2004, this date should apply to all voters and in all circumstances.
Granted, the Republicans are taking a different position than before, when they would have preferred that absolutely no changes be allowed after 11/17/2004. However, this position is exactly what the law now requires, as interpreted by the WA Supreme Court. You cannot pick and choose about enforcing the law. The law must be enforced just the same when it benefits Gregoire, as when it benefits Rossi.
Richard Pope, you said “counties now have that right under RCW 29A.60.210 until Sam Reed finally certifies this manual recount.” Counties have had that right all along, and at least five counties other than King have exercised that right. They have already decided not to count those votes. If they decide to re-canvass them and include them in their final count before certification, they have that legal right, but they will not be forced to do so.
Brent, in your last comment, you were correct about what the Supreme Court said.
So Goldy, Republicans can now say “a humorless Attorney General managed to get an equally humorless judge to issue an injunction that stopped our campaign.” You do love irony.
P Scott… hey… now that’s doing your homework. Yeah, in a manner of speaking. Thought it is more like “an equally humorless panel of judges to not stop a campaign.” But, whatever.
NWCN has reported that Reed has stated that he will wait until next Thursday to certify the final results of the election, in order to give Republicans time to try to convince numerous canvassing boards to reconsider Rossi votes. I’m sure the Democrats will respond in kind.
I want to see computer scanned versions of all votes that went to the canvassing board, and the vote of the board as to who the vote was given to. The final result is fishy – Gregoire picks up 47, and Rossi loses 12? Huh?
This is a lost cause. The real cheating has already been buried in the counted votes. This includes the homeless that can’t now be verified in precinct 1823, the double ballots mailed out, the “enhanced” ballots, etc. Only a run-off would correct this, and I don’t see that happening.
Last minute flailing attempts for Rs to win:
There is a big significant difference between what King County did and the Rs now trying to now find new votes: the canvassing boards of each county have already certified their votes except for King County which will happen tomorrow. The canvassing boards have already considering marginal ballots and made their decisions. Also, the Washington State Supreme Court has already ruled that the boards cannot be forced to recanvass although many of them were more forgiving the King County. Other counties did the same as King County, and thus, there are no remainder votes there either. The bottom line is that the other counties seem content with their certified returns and are not likely to open them up.
The only other avenues available are very long shots. An election “contest” in Washington is pretty fatalistic, the grounds are narrow and the Supreme Court has already made a specific ruling on King County’s actions. Nothing left there. What can Rossi argue that was not before the court today? I have not heard anything that would amount to anything.
There are the federal courts and a prayer for a revisit of Bush v. Gore. Yet, it is tough to believe the feds would get involved in a state election hinging on state law. No district court in Seattle is likely to intervene nor the 9th circuit.
Janet S, anyone can contest an election, not just political parties. If you or anyone you know has any evidence of fraud, official misconduct or cheating, you should present the evidence and request a run-off election. If the legislature/courts find that fraud has been committed and issues a run-off election, I would support it.
Yes, Pierce county didnt count my sons provisional vote. We have already notified the Rossi campaign, see where it goes from there
Secretary of State Sam Reed has stated that he will wait until next Thursday to certify the results of the election so that Republicans can attempt to convince canvassing boards to include Rossi votes which were never counted. I’m sure the Democrats have an equally long list of disenfranchised Gregoire voters and an equal chance of convincing canvassing boards to consider their votes, so their efforts should cancel out each other. Since the final King County returns tomorrow will likely show Gregoire ahead by 100+ votes, it is highly unlikely that Rossi will win the manual recount. I’d say he has a better chance of winning the lottery. If anyone can prove beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt that fraud was committed in this election and the courts agree and order a runoff election, I would be in favor of it.
The circumstances are that he normally votes absentee, but never recieved no ballot, so I gave him a ride to the polling place (Roy fire hall) and went in with him, it was an animal house, I have never seen anything so slow or badly ran but that is for another story. They couldnt find his name as a registered voter (he was and had voted there before) so they had him fill out a provisional ballot. I called the auditor today to check on everyones ballot and low and behold my sons wasnt counted. The man on the phone said there was a record of the provisional ballot but no record of it being recorded. So I was listening to the man that should now be our governor (John Carlson) and he gave out Rossi’s campaign headquarters # so I called them.
The ultimate power to determine this election, believe it or not, seems to be with the U.S. Congress. Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution states that the U.S. shall guarantee each state a “republican” (no pun intended) form of government. In Luther v. Borden, 48 U.S. 1 (1849), the U.S. Supreme Court said that the U.S. Congress had the power to determine whether a particular state government was legitimate, and that no court had the power to overturn such a decision by the U.S. Congress. This power was actually exercised several times in the 1860’s and 1870’s against southern states who had denied citizens the right to vote, or where elections had been won by fraud. Not only does Congress have this ultimate power under the U.S. Constitution, but it would be especially appropriate, given the fact that thousands of military personnel from this state have been denied the right to vote due to county election officials mailing them absentee ballots late. If it was okay for Clinton to declare Haiti’s or Yugoslavia’s government illegitimate due to fraudulent elections (and use military force to enforce his decisions), then certainly it is appropriate for the U.S. Congress to use its express power to do so under the U.S. Constitution. The Democrats have been bragging that the Washington Constitution gives the state legislature (currently controlled by their party in both houses) the power to decide contested elections at the state level. Therefore, they could hardly complain if the GOP controlled U.S. Congress decided this matter at the federal level, using the federal constitutional provision.
Gregoire supporters shouldn’t call for Rossi to concede. That’s petty. They should just make an announcement that every vote has been counted, and Dino Rossi can decide whether that’s what this election is about. I voted for Rossi, but I’m annoyed by how many of his followers have acted. My concern now is that Gregoire will never be able to lead because there will be so many people that are now willing to sabotage their state in order to bring down a Democrat. If this is the future of the Republican party, its death cannot come soon enough.
MORE Canvass Board Votes –Let’s us remember that there are no contested votes in many counies, perhaps a majority. many had no issues with any ballots, “just counted them”—–this crap about all the Rossi voters waiting to be recounted is Chris Vance babble.He is a blowhard among other things.
Will believe the re tabulation cases when I see the counties report.
Gregoire, won, will be the new Gov. Nothing will change that.
This is pretty funny, let’s take a step back in time:
Prior Vance statement:
“We are very disappointed and concerned that Christine Gregoire is resorting to desperate legal tactics that will drag this election process into court, just as the Democratic Party did in Florida four years ago”
How times have changed.
Wrongo Bob, I know of one Rossi vote that is now in dispute in pierce, and the worker I talked to that requested anonimity says they have been getting HUNDREDS of calls with very upset people, mostly Rossi supporters
Erik, it was the Dems that chose the path, not us.
You know what’s really ironic? In WWII, Britain didn’t think Germany should attack. They even told them so. But then, when Germany did attack, Britain attacked them back! Man, what hypocrites!
Janet – you are a R’ prig – get out of the shadow world…. Any one worried about how the homeless vote as in Fraud, is just pain in the dark. They don’t vote much.
Yes, yes, surprise they can of course register- in Seattle, Bellevue, Renton, any city, or county, yes they are full citizens, yes, yes. BUT their mobility means they move around and thus don’t vote much. InhumanSound is making a big fucking deal out of thin air. I agree there is an education for all in this election season…stuffy uptight bourgoise R’ matrons discover the homess can indeed register to vote….horror of horrors.
Some noble group of– get all folk registered– got a lot of people registed in that precinct – and then a whopping 37 percent turned out. Perhaps the lowest precint in the State- many precincts pushed 80 per cent.in this record turnout election.
Get over it.
Chuck – the whole debate about uncounted votes has involved thousand of votes in King county. Some for Rossi, some for Greoire.
Get your son an attorney and insist his legal vote is counted.
I would not depend on Chis Bance for anything. Tomorow the state R’s might change their minds…..not too famous for Count Every Vote mantra in this election.
Actually, the Democrats and Sam Reed have now expanded it ti EVERY vote should count now, as sweet Chrissy said on TV, this isnt about winning or losing…
Chuck – the Supreme Court said today that county canvassing boards have had all along the perogative of correcting mistakes — all along and for decades in the past. They reafirmed a desion from 1926, key in their ruling, to that effect.—-long history in this state.
Mistake made..in any county…get it fixed. OK by me and the Supreme Court. Good company.
But the court actually changed the rules from what the previous policy was.
Okay, you all – KVI was running this great ad to defend Rossi against voter fraud. It has happened and it will be dealt with.
You want me to take ANY of you seriously – in your next post, please acknowledge the fact. Otherwise, bug off.
Comment by Timothy— 12/22/04 @ 9:25 pm
GOOD POINT.
Comment by Brent— 12/22/04 @ 5:43 pm
YOU ARE A MORON TO CONSIDER ME A NEO-CON. A DINOCRAT DOES NOT EQUAL A NEO-CON, YOU DUMBS–T. GO F- YOURSELF. WE’RE GOING TO TAKE BACK WHAT YOU STOLE FROM US!
Okay, you all – KVI was running this great ad to defend Rossi against voter fraud. It has happened and it will be dealt with.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
OK Ill bite, what do they say in this ad? I havent heard it.
Comment by Richard Pope— 12/22/04 @ 8:44 pm
Good point. I sure hope somebody tells that bully, that tyrant Gregoire and her kleptocrat friends in King County Elections who have disgraced the party of Permanent Defense and Horsesass.org where to get off…
(If you wonder why I’m so mad – call me a Neo-Con again… Lot of things I am – Neo-Con I am not. Supporting Dino Rossi does NOT make you a Neo-Con!)
Comment by Chuck— 12/22/04 @ 10:18 pm
John Carlson kept telling people on the air during his show to call Rossi HQ if you knew of military disenfranchisement… We Rossifarians figure if the rules can be changed for questionable votes, they can be changed for the troops!
Josef – The Republicans did not provide any evidence of voter fraud at any of the hearings. The Supreme’s even mentioned that in their ruling (that accusations without evidence do not count as facts). So while I understand that you believe voter fraud has occured, I’ll believe it when I see the hard evidence presented outside of talk radio. And while it’s possible that some Dems have committed voter fraud, it’s just as possible (probable?) that Republicans have also committed voter fraud.
Lastly, telling us to (basically) “agree with me or bug off” (a logical fallacy/bad argument called “Appeal to Force”) isn’t going to get anyone to listen to you. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Josef – The Republicans did not provide any evidence of voter fraud at any of the hearings. The Supreme’s even mentioned that in their ruling (that accusations without evidence do not count as facts). So while I understand that you believe voter fraud has occured, I’ll believe it when I see the hard evidence presented outside of talk radio. And while it’s possible that some Dems have committed voter fraud, it’s just as possible (probable?) that Republicans have also committed voter fraud.
Lastly, telling us to (basically) “agree with me or bug off” (a logical fallacy/bad argument called “Appeal to Force”) isn’t going to get anyone to listen to you. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Oh I thought you were being sarcastic, yes I listened in on that, as a matter of fact it wasnt only military, it was anyone, and I called for my sons problem, they sounded very together as well as helpful, funny thing, when Gregiore was on the other end you couldnt acctually talk with her campaign office, only voice mail, with Rossi a real person answered the phone.
Josef – The votes weren’t questionable and the rules didn’t change. The Supremes made that clear. As I said, the Republicans argued the votes were questionable, but didn’t provide any evidence. If they had it, they would have presented it. The claimed it was a rules change, but the Supremes unanimously rejected that argument, along with every other point the Republicans brought up.
And if you were able to get rejected military ballots (which aren’t some special class, despite the good that our military does for us) or signature mismatch ballots re-canvassed, the Dems would ask KC to re-canvass all their rejected ballots, which would still lead to a Gregoire win.
I simply don’t see Rossi and the Republicans pulling this one out
PS. Sorry for the double-post (and notice that I didn’t call anyone a neo-con).
And if you were able to get rejected military ballots (which aren’t some special class, despite the good that our military does for us) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
News flash for you, military tends to historicly vote conservative…the very reason that the Gore camaign fought to the death to have them excluded….reality is that
Ok,
Here’s the hail Mary move by the Republicans:
Lane and state GOP Chairman Chris Vance said the party planned to go all over the state asking canvassing boards to take another look at ballots the party believes were erroneously rejected.
“If the rules are going to be changed for a select group in King County, it only seems logical that the rules are changed for everyone, including military voters overseas,” Lane said.
But that pesky Secretary of State Sam Reed, is he the greatest thorn in the side of Republicans or what?:
(Sam Reed) a Republican who backed the Democrats’ bid to add any valid disputed ballots to King County’s recount, said it’s too late for counties that have already certified results to recanvass their returns.”
“He’s wrong,” Vance said, noting that Thurston County certified its results last week, then changed them to add one Gregoire vote. “This battle is not over. This election is not over.”
oh my, now he’s foaming at the mouth
Trovah Hutchins, Reed’s spokeswoman, said the secretary of state’s office advised Thurston County against changing its certified results. “Our reading of the law is that it’s very clear, and that you cannot go back after a county has certified and begin adding votes back into the process.”
Hmmm, so I guess the Rs are going to have to try to get a lot of counties to illigally re-open their certification again. I wonder how many will?
I think (dare I commend a Republican) Sam Reed is standing so tall right now with his 2-0 count with the Supreme Court that the counties are going to listen to him very closely. If there is one non-partison light right now it is Sam.
Excellent Diary on DailyKos about the recount from the front lines:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/16/94141/174
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/19/2313/1449
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/21/20163/431
One thing I learned from the diary: Remember the ballot supposedly marked “Christine Rossi”? It was actually marked “Christine Ross”+(ome other letters) and after deliberating the rules, the canvas board voted unanimously that this was a vote for Gregoire. The canvas board is made up of one Republican, one Democrat. Stealing the election my foot.
Also, here’s some good statistical analysis on the recount that puts some hard data towards dispeling accusations that King County is terrible at counting and the Rossi counties are so great: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/22/195942/72
Josef – do you get paid for all this……you are now elevated from sore looser to VERY sore looser. Hate to tell you, Dinocrat is a rather silly PR phrase….where is Rossi, in the Cheney bunker drinking?
Did Thurston County certify its results last week, then change them to add one Gregoire vote?
Comment by Bob from Boeing— 12/22/04 @ 10:36 pm
I get to defend liberty. That’s my paycheck.
Well, Sam’s not partisan, the Supremes are non-partisan (voting unanimously as they did), and in reading some diaries from the “front lines” (see DailyKos), it appears that the King County canvassing board seemed to function in a mostly non-partisan fashion.
Contrary to all the speculation and rumors about how the KC canvassing board was stealing the election by voting 2-1 for all the disputed ballots, it appears that nearly all decisions were unanimous (2 dems, 1 republican). Even the most (supposedly) egregious ballot (the famed “Christine Rossi”) was voted unanimously to be a Gregoire vote (see the diaries on DailyKos for more details).
Oh yeah, and all those other counties that added Gregoire ballots during the recount? Mostly unanimous there too (even in Rossi county where the canvassing boards skew Republican).
All the Rossi supporters here can do is sling mud – not a single shred of evidence that the gain in Gregoire votes was anything less than the result of a legal hand recount. Let ’em keep digging their own hole while we keep ourselves above water.
You all – now jcricket should respectfully realize that SoundPolitics.com just now is digging up this info… We will contest the election in court, if and when we have to.
Just prepare for a new one. We’ll win, you lose and you know it. My graciousness went out the window when you called me a neo-con…
And of course what Vance is pretending, in his pretend world, is that Dems do not have the hustle or resources to do the same.
If the door is wide open, I think King-Pierce-Shohomish have a lot of ballots left. Caeful…AboutToBray Vance, your big mouth is wide open.
Bob – just a tiny (I hope humorous) point. It’s “loser”, not “looser”. Looser would mean that Josef’s getting more flexible and/or easy to get to go back to your place. I don’t think that’s what you meant :)
And to go on what Jim King said earlier today, Josef’s just really riled up right now because he had his heart set on a Rossi win. I’m sure he’ll eventually get back to his normal self. He has the right to protest if he feels unfairly maligned, even if we think it’s misguided.
So, Rossi should concede, but if his supporters want to keep protesting, feel free :)
Chuck, yes, yesterday— that is why Rossi slipped one vote in the plelim. gains
Comment by Bob from Boeing— 12/22/04 @ 10:42 pm
Well, we have Marummy! The Vaninator! And the US Congress. And the US Supremes! And the US Military! And did I say Marummy? Of course I did. We’re going to give it ’em back! I’m madder than hell – my election was stolen by fraudulent votes!
The evidence is clear! Turnabout is fair play!
Comment by jcricket— 12/22/04 @ 10:43 pm
Rest assured, Rossi will NOT concede. Your guy didn’t, did she?
But thanks for the kind words. I’ll move out of this kleptocratic state soon enough if Gregoire isn’t stopped…
Chuck – can assure you the Dem. party in this State has respect for Al Gore.We are full of guts and piss and fight. The ultra right wing in this stae has scared us into total offensive mode if needed. Scared of their theocratic/neo con politics.
Al made so many mistakes, I still cry at night.
Careful Josef – I have never called you (or anyone on this board) a neo-con. About the only people I use that term for is Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, etc. I’m not Brent or Rudy.
And Bob’s right – if you contest ballots, Dems will be doing the same. KC (Gregoire county) had stricter signature match guidelines than anywhere else in the state and has more rejected ballots than any other county. And historically, study after study shows that Democrats routinely have their votes rejected at a higher rate than Republicans. So if you open a re-canvass of all rejected ballots, Democrats will surely pad their lead.
And for every military ballot you trot out the Democrats will find the ballot of a new citizen or minority who was denied even the right to vote by some bigots in Eastern Washington. For every case of individual voter fraud you even think you find in KC, the Dems will find cases of the same elsewhere.
Goldy’s right – the Republicans don’t want to count every ballot. They want everyone to think the election is illegitimate because of mere rumors and speculation so they can get support for a revote. Remember how the Supremes went out of their way to point out the Rs didn’t bring up any evidence to show that the 700+ ballots were insecure? I remember you insisting the Rs would show their cards at the trial. And they didn’t.
So, along with other facts surrounding the lack of evidence to support the Rs accusations, I’m not prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt anymore. You’ll have to provide solid, independently verifiable proof.
And you’re going to move out? Isn’t that “un-patriotic”? Republicans always claim that any Dems who threatens to move out of the country if the Dems lose is “unpatriotic”. If you move out, one less potential vote for Rossi (or Rossi2) next time around. Same reason I wouldn’t consider abandoning this great country just because my party’s candidate doesn’t win an election.
Comment by jcricket— 12/22/04 @ 10:50 pm
Nice post. Okay, after reading the kind words of Jim King, I say: Just go to SoundPolitics.com and read about some of the horror stories. Stefan Sharksansky, the not-so-unofficial WSRP blogger, has uncovered interesting stats about voter fraud in downtown Seattle. A policeman also called KVI to supplement that info – and believe me, if he didn’t, I wouldn’t be in such an uproar. Because as we all know, Stefan is more than a bit of a demagogue.
Comment by jcricket— 12/22/04 @ 10:53 pm
I don’t know. Maybe another state – certainly NOT Sizemoregon. Who knows? Maybe B.C. Or Ontario, where I have centrist friends.
But I don’t want to start a buisness under Gregoire and I don’t want to constantly fear my state gov’t…
Cricket – did you ever tend bar… You seem wise in the human to human stuff.
Chuck, yes, yesterday— that is why Rossi slipped one vote in the plelim. gains >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Then we have a history-a track record of certifying, then decertifying to continue the vcote count—–
I heard that Secretary of State Sam Reed will certify the recount on Thursday, December 23, 2004 (not next week). According to the Seattle PI, counties cannot go back and change certified results. The contest period will run from Monday, December 27 through Monday, January 10, 2005.
Actually, thats according to Sam Reed. NWCN must have erred in saying that he’ll wait until next week. It would surprise me if he would wait until next week to help one party over the other.
Al made so many mistakes, I still cry at night. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That tree huggung moron made me cry at night just to think that it was possible he could steal an election, as does this broad, we have had Democrats too long here, they have ran Boeing out, the wood industry is but a mere skeleton of its past, same with the paper industry. The fast food places are even dying. And all this clown we have in office can do is go to China and visit relatives. The guy before him couldnt keep his hands off of the girls asses and dickless lee ray…her major contribution was her dog dying….Support a conservative, how much worse can we do??
Hell even Gates is considering a microsoft move…
Comment by Chuck— 12/22/04 @ 11:11 pm
Man, your pain is felt here. I just hope you’re no Eymanist…
Comment by Chuck— 12/22/04 @ 11:15 pm
WHERE did you hear that?!?
Microsoft rumor…Nevada has offered an open end sweet deal kind of tax free kind of thing you know…
I am no Eyemanist, but if he comes by with something that makes sence I will vote for it…ie- 695, casino expansion ect.
Chuck: Hmmm… My oh my. Now we really need Rossi to take back what’s his!
Oh and BTW: All you progressives out there – I supported Laura Ruderman for the SecState position. She was from Microsoft. Do you want to lose more Ruderman-caliber people? I sure hope not…
Lock and his legislature watched the Boeing Company ride to Chitown and about all they could muster up was an adios. Nice, I used to work for the big B
The Seattle PI is reporting below that Reed is planning to amend the certification TODAY 12/23/2004. That would be after KC certifies.
Reed, a Republican, said Vance is wrong.
“The counties don’t have the authority now to do that,” Reed said. “The statute says specifically that you have to do this by the day of certification in the county. They have now certified, and they’re through.”
Only King County has yet to officially certify hand count results.
Reed said Republicans would have to get a court order or contest the election to follow through on what they’ve proposed. He will formally end the recount by amending the certification with the final results today.
Vance said it’s too early to say whether the party plans to contest the election or demand a second election.
County election officials said they too were skeptical that Republicans could ask them to reconsider their previous decisions.
If the PI is right about Reed’s actions, the election could be wrapped up tomorrow.
AFTER Reed’s deeds tomorrrow- will claim wild high riding VICTORY again-
dancing in Red Square, Fremont and Columbia City- and the always festive pride people on C. Hill, you know who you are.
OXOXOXOXOXOXOXO- yes, the wine is good. Just a few toasts.
Okay, you hit a sore point here. I’ve got a novel suggestion… in casting the blame for all the Boeing jobs that have been lost, shouldn’t a tiny, little bit of it be aimed at, gee, I don’t know… BOEING?!!!! Oh my God, what a bunch of dumb fucks Boeing management has been! They let Airbus eat their lunch, and you’re going to blame the WA State Democrats? This is Airbus for God’s sake… they’re French! I find it absolutely amazing that people can blame state regulation, and high taxes, and greedy unions, when the truth is, Boeing is getting their asses kicked by the fucking French! These are employees with 32-hour weeks, and 6 weeks of vacation and Boeing can’t compete because costs are too high here? No… don’t blame management… blame Christine Gregoire. Sheesh!
And as to the timber industry… you know, a funny thing happens when you cut down all the trees… there tend to be not quite as many trees left to cut down. Ever read the Lorax? Or have you ever pondered the meaning of the name Georgia-Pacific? Well, around the turn of century, they chopped down the pine forests of the Southeast (hence the name “Georgia”), and when they ran out of cheap timber, they moved out to the Northwest (that’s where the “Pacific” part comes in). And in the ’90s, when the timber was depleted here, they moved their headquarters back to Georgia, where the second growth forests were now ready to be cut.
Or… we could just blame Christine Gregoire.
Nope. We will have a court contest. SecState Reed will never be forgiven by his own party, that is for sure. Oops, that’s right: I’M NOT A NEO-CON OR A REPUG. JUST A DINOCRAT.
Folks, the conflict wages on… more cases of voter fraud to investigate… more turnabout to pull…
Comment by Goldy— 12/23/04 @ 12:32 am
Damn good points. But still… government subsidies are what Airbus gets and what a good few – like AG-elect McKenna and I – are stridently against.
That said, I don’t blame Gregoire for Boeing looking elsewhere – but for perpetuating the policies that made Boeing feel that way. I don’t blame Gregoire for the logging industry – but I feel Gregoire’s zeal for regulation could crimp the recovery from the transition from logging. You have to remember – I live in a community dependent on logging. We need to transition… not more CAOs!
Oh my God, what a bunch of dumb fucks Boeing management has been! They let Airbus eat their lunch>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So they moved to Chicago????? If Airbus was the problem they would have moved to…Korea…China….Vietnam???? Not Chitown
Comment by Chuck— 12/23/04 @ 1:18 am
Partially true, partially not true. Boeing said they wanted to move after mergers (and obviously to send Gridlocke and the state legislature a memo that obviously worked). I wonder what Bob From Boeing has to say about this?
And as to the timber industry… you know, a funny thing happens when you cut down all the trees… there tend to be not quite as many trees left to cut down????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Tons of trees around here, as well as tree huggers.
And while you are going strong, Goldy, I guess you will blame the Microsoft move to better buisiness envoorments or something like that…what about Burger King backing out of the state? We cannot even flip burgers…WOW. No sweet Chrissy isnt the blam for the things that I speak of but the policies she talks of are the same that started all of these things in our communities. Tell me ONE promise that will be “different” and will not continue to raise taxes and run buisiness away??????
Partially true, partially not true. Boeing said they wanted to move after mergers>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And before that…after the Longacres fiasco Frank Shronz said the Boeing Company will never build another facility in Washington…under Gary Lock…
Lost for a decent explanation….or trying to find a study to support the democratic view of running buisiness out of the state is good for us? What is going to be the answer? Tax us then tax us again….
Last year, my property tax exeded my years wages….really, no lie
That’s what happens when you don’t have a state income tax to provide a solid base for funding the vital services of the state. I’m not in favor of our high sales and property taxes, but I recognize them as the inevitable consequence of a growing population and no state income tax.
Josef – if you’re against subsidies, then be prepared for Microsoft and Boeing to leave wherever it is they move next. Companies are currently playing a game of “chicken” with state government, demanding they give big tax breaks or subsidies in order for the state not to lose the “precious jobs”. I hate losing jobs and marquee companies as much as anyone, but if we keep throwing big subsidies at companies, we’re basically paying for those jobs with our tax money. Aren’t the Republicans always complaining about the size of the government? Well, subsidies are, in effect, partially nationalizing the industries they support (increasing the size of the federal government). It’s like “robbing Peter to pay Paul” if you’ve heard that expression.
Despite Burger King leaving, McDonalds, Jack in the Box, Taco Bell & Wendy’s seem to be doing fine. I don’t think we’ll lack for fattening (and yummy) fast food because of any government policies.
Just to be clear – I’m not against policies that nurture small businesses, and policies that make sure we can compete globally. I’m actually not reflexively free-trade. But as Goldy pointed out, the French (and other Europeans) have massively less “business-friendly” work environments (sub-35 hour work weeks, 6+weeks vacation, 1 year paid maternity leave, unlimited unemployment, powerful unions, strict regulations, tarrifs, etc) and some of them still manage to compete. So, if anything, I support our government when it works to force the EU to eliminate subsidies and/or taxes on imports (of course we should also reciprocate).
I think we’re doing alright. The downturn recently affected everyone, and it doesn’t surprise me that lots of people lost jobs and are out of work. During the “boom years” I didn’t hear anyone complaining that this state was too hard to do business in. These things are cyclical.
It seems to me that Washington has been Democrat for years now. And you want to blame the republicans for everything. Come on get real. It is high time for change lets see if someone else can get things done here. This state needs to get the schools taken care of. Yet the money from the lottery that is suppose to go to the schools instead goes to Seattle and projects there. Lets cut the fat in the government and lets remember there is more to this state than Seattle. I for one think that the more times you count the more crooked the process is. Finding more and more votes. I hope Rossi is the winner. And if the Democrats win then let them pay for all the recounts that change the vote not the state. I am neither Democrat or Republican I do not vote for a party but for the individual I feel would be best for the position………….By the way Merry Christmas all
Chuck,
Burger King has been in financial trouble for over 2 years now, and their store reduction was part of a nationwide store closure of MANY stores.
Josef, you say:
From what I understand, those are all people who registered to vote, not people who actually voted.
Trot out for me the numbers of people from that precinct who actually VOTED, and then I’ll start listening to the fraud allegations.
Comment by Bob from Boeing— 12/22/04 @ 10:56 pm
Thanks for the compliment. I never tended bar, and this is probably the first time someone’s ever said that I’m “good” at the personal skills thing :)
Maybe it’s the Philosophy and Logic I studied in College. Or maybe it’s that I’m a moderate Democrat, and thus by my nature a tolerant, accepting person :)
Comment by DustinJames— 12/23/04 @ 9:39 am
Right now, we do not have that information. NOBODY does. From what I heard on KIRO yesterday King County Elections hasn’t compiled the information.
I’m saying accept the possibility. All we need is to prove, let
‘s say 16, to be safe, to a judge in an election contest and wala – NEW ELECTION!!!
Comment by jcricket— 12/23/04 @ 7:55 am
I’m anti most subsidies – doubly so most aspects of the 7E7 deal. Problem is, if we had a real leader in the Governor’s mansion and in the White House – this game of chicken wouldn’t be tolerated.
Josef,
I’m fairly reasonable, and I would listen if that precinct came out with some unbelievably high percentage of voter turnout…
But, I’m betting when the numbers do come out, that the numbers will be much lower than the turnout rate for the rest of Seattle.
Josef – I’d love to support your belief, but in states with both Republican and Democratic governers, they find themselves desperate to keep jobs. Farm and manufacturing subsidies in “Red” states, tax breaks for biotech in “Blue” states. It’s all the same. I have no doubt Dino Rossi would have done the same thing (subsidies/tax breaks) given the situation.
You’re right that if the elected officials were “real” leaders, they’d stand up to the bullying companies. But that certainly doesn’t apply to modern Republicans any more than it applies to modern Democrats.
That should read, “but both in states with Republican governers and states with Democratic governers” (not trying to imply that any state has two governers).
Josef – I have always accepted the possibility of voter fraud, it’s inherent in our system. Throughout history, voters (independently) and or political parties, have committed voter fraud. Both parties. Both R and D voters.
But the Republicans have already proven once that their allegations of vote-mishandling are baseless (they had their chance at the WA Supreme Court). So while the burden of proof has always been on the accuser (Repubs), it’s now doubly so. The Repubs consistently trot out rumors and accusations without backing them up, so I’m actually dis-inclined to believe them.
Thanks for the compliment. I never tended bar, and this is probably the first time someone’s ever said that I’m “good” at the personal skills thing
Comment by jcricket— 12/23/04 @ 10:14 am
Thanks for the compliment. I never tended bar, and this is probably the first time someone’s ever said that I’m “good” at the personal skills thing
Comment by jcricket— 12/23/04 @ 10:14 am
Now, why doesn’t that surprise me?
Despite Burger King leaving, McDonalds, Jack in the Box, Taco Bell & Wendy’s seem to be doing fine. I don’t think we’ll lack for fattening (and yummy) fast food because of any government policies.
Comment by jcricket— 12/23/04 @ 7:55 am
Nor that?
The Manual count has not been certified and yet you ask Rossi to concede? It will not be certified until the last leag day, which is one week from today, I spoke to Sam Reeds office. Under the “New Rules” ballots may be counted if by no fault of the voter they were not originally counted, well there are a lot of military and other republican votes that fit the new rules…so slow down on the concede demands and let the counting continue………….
I think we’re doing alright. The downturn recently affected everyone, and it doesn’t surprise me that lots of people lost jobs and are out of work. During the “boom years” I didn’t hear anyone complaining that this state was too hard to do business in. These things are cyclical.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
We arent doing alright, this state has recovered the least economicly, and yes Frank Shrontz complained during the boom years over Longacres, he said that because of the red tape involved in the permiting and enviomental requirements Boeing will never build another facility in this state, this was at a Seattle chamber of commerce meeting. Longacres was the last building built here…
Burger King has been in financial trouble for over 2 years now, and their store reduction was part of a nationwide store closure of MANY stores.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You are wrong about Burger King, they are expanding in Oregon as well as Idaho, more buisiness freindly states
Burger King didn’t shut down in WA. Remember that most Burger Kings are actually independently owned and operated. In this case the area-wide (or state-wide) franchisee did a poor job of managing their business and shut down. It has nothing to do with WA being business friendly or not, and everything to do with their ability to run their business.
Fast food places are universally having trouble in WA. And every closed/shuttered business is not an example of “business-unfriendly” policies. 8 out of 10 businesses fail, regardless of state, regardless of what business they’re in. There’s no guarantee of success. Unless you want tax-based subsidies ensuring people stay in business. Oh wait, that’s socialism. Oh wait, that’s what the Republicans want for any industry with a lot of jobs in their areas (farms, manufacturing).
Republicans are all for “business-friendly” (read: subsidies and low taxes) and “free trade” (read: allowing them to use cheap labor outside of the US) as long as it doesn’t hurt their constituents.
Chuck, Burger King didn’t shut down in WA state. Most Burger Kings are independently owned and operated. The area franchisee in WA state did a poor job of managing their business, as evidenced by the fact that other fast food places are doing fine. Krispy Kreme’s opened several stores and makes lots of money in them.
Every shuttered business is not a result of “business-unfriendly” policies. 8 out of 10 new businesses fail, regardless of state, regardless of what business arena they’re in. Kmart’s failing because they aren’t do as good a job at merchandising as Wal-mart and Target. BarnesandNoble.com was sold back to the parent company for a big loss after it failed to compete with amazon. A convienence mart around the corner from me closed because of poor sales and was replaced with a Greek restaurant that’s doing phenomenal business.
Even the big guys, like Boeing, aren’t failing because we’re business unfriendly. Boeing may be having trouble because of Airbus’ unfair receipt of government subsidies, but that’s something we should argue to eliminate, not duplicate. Boeing also doesn’t help itself when they commit felonies in negotiating defense contracts. Oh, and the drop in air traffic after 9/11 (talk about business unfriendly) doesn’t help either.
(For background – Boeing argues that Airbus unfairly benefits from what amount to government subsidies from the countries in the EU that used to own Airbus. From the evidence I’ve seen, I agree. Those subsidies should stop. But if anything, after that, Airbus has a more hostile set of labor regulations to deal with.)
(sorry – thought that first post didn’t go through)
You can nitpick and try to find other reasons as to why these buisiness left but the plain reality is that this state is unfreindly to buisiness. The inventory tax is an exelent example, that is why you have to order parts for your car from out of state…usually the Portland warehouse. It cost the Boeing company one hell of a lot of money to move to Chicago, an area with a higher cost of living than Seattle..Airbus didnt cause that…
Uh, Boeing moved to Chicago because Illinois basically paid them to do it in the form of special “Boeing-only” tax breaks and subsidies. And who fills the holes in the state budget where that tax revenue is depleted? That’s right, the taxpayers of Illionois.
Also remember that Boeing moved their HQ to Chicago, not their entire airline operation. Less than 1000 jobs. I’m never happy to see jobs leave the state, but if we acceede to every company’s demand for favoritism, we (the taxpayers) will be the ones left footing the bill.
If anything, this state is unfriendly to business because of things like the B&O tax that doesn’t account for whether you profit or not. This state is also unfriendly to the lower and middle class with its high sales tax.
So while I’d agree with you on the need to change nuances of the tax code, I haven’t seen any coherent argument that WA is essentially business-unfriendly except that proposed by businesses that want favoritism just for them or people that think every business that fails is a result of some statewide malfeasance.
Amazon did just fine. Starbucks is doing well. Where I work has tons of money coming in and no problem attracting talented workers from all around the world. The biotech industry is growing. Downtown core is thriving. Malls are sprouting up north and south of the city.
Yeah, we had a recession and it hurt a lot of us (me included). It hurt a ton of people all around the country. That’s largely not the fault of WA state policies.
North Dakota is super “business-friendly” and yet it can’t keep its state from de-populating. The only companies setting up shop in ND are low-paying call-centers, because you can’t find high-quality college-educated candidates in a state that’s depopulating.
Also remember that Boeing moved their HQ to Chicago, not their entire airline operation.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Perhaps you need to wake up and smell the roses…most of the Auburn Boeing plant has been sold off, same with the Fredrickson site, as well as the Spokane plant, a state of the art plant now belongs to Triump industries! Boeing is a skeleton of its former self in this state, the company is leaving as fast as it can close buildings and sell real estate!
North Dakota is super “business-friendly” and yet it can’t keep its state from de-populating. The only companies setting up shop in ND are low-paying call-centers, because you can’t find high-quality college-educated candidates in a state that’s depopulating.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ever been to ND? The problem there is a bitter nasty climate. If you want to compare buisiness freindly states, take Nevada as an example. They are being invaded by new buisiness and quality workers…
Chuck – For every facility Boeing closes here, they don’t open a new one anywhere else. The airline business is shrinking, look at all the airlines in trouble. It’s not that this state is business unfriendly, but that the airline industry is in trouble.
And you’re right, Nevada is growing quickly, with its nice climate and low tax rates. I’m not sure I’ve seen enough statistics to support the idea that high-paying jobs/industries are sprouting up there. I have relatives there who complain all the time that the new jobs are mostly low-paying casino/hotel industry stuff – but I don’t know enough to say that for sure. But who wants to live in the desert?
Chuck – For every facility Boeing closes here, they don’t open a new one anywhere else.>>>>>>>>
Not true, they reopen most of the facilities in better buisiness states such as Kansas, as well as move operations to formerly closed McDonnel Douglass facilities. And the airlines arent shrinking either, slight downturn as many times in history before but it will come back to a greater industry as before, the difference is democratic policies have assured that Washington will reap very little benifet from the company…
You do know that the Kansas plant is hanging on by a thin thread, right? I constantly read reports of rumors that the plant is up for sale or they’re thinking of shutting it down. And the only way WA state could keep Boeing from taking the 7E7 assembly elsewhere was to offer them enough favoritism to ensure the state reaps very little benefit from Boeing. Chicago’s subsidies ensure IL receives almost no tax benefit from that company. It’s not the supposedly business-unfriendly policies of WA state that cause Boeing’s problems. They cause their own by poor management.
And the big airlines are shrinking, quite a bit. 1000s of layoffs announced every couple of months, lower pay, massive losses, bankruptcy over-and-over. Sure, several small airlines have done well and popped up to take the routes and passengers, but the airline industry isn’t growing in terms of overall employment/dollars/profit. That’s why Boeing is abandoning it’s older plane lines and building the 7E7 (787 officially, I think) for the new point-to-point model of airline. Boeing didn’t catch this trend early enough (Airbus did), but it’s possible they’ll leapfrog Airbus, who is mired in the design of the massive A380 (for longhaul flights). Yes, Boeing’s business is cyclical, but their failure has little or nothing to do with WA state labor/business laws.
Not to mention Boeing nearly ruining its standing as a defense contractor (and losing a huge contract that could have kept 1000s of jobs at the 767 plant open) by committing several felonies during the negotiations with the military. Explain to me how WA state laws caused that?
The tanker problem was acctually after the fact and had nothing to do with Boeing leaving this state. Actually the majority of the tanker work was to be completed in Wichita. And when a state “reaps” no benifet it actually recieves benifet by the workers being employed. That is what pays the taxes. It is like everytime the state cranks the taxes on the trucker, are you really crazy enough to believe that the trucker is paying that tax? Nope, bud that head of lettuce cost more si the trucker can pay that tax and put a few extra dollars in his pocket as well.
Go, Dino, go! Fight on, baby! You can overturn this so-called 130 vote dficit in a contest.
Go, Dino. ;0)
Chuck – but if you do the math on a lot of the subsidies, it means the taxpayers are paying out far more to the company than the company employees bring in taxes or even paying for more than 100% of the salaries. Look at the tax breaks Locke gave to Boeing just to keep final assembly work for the 7E7 in WA state – $3.2 billion, right? For the number of jobs it’s estimated to generate (700-1200) it works out to some obscene amount. So the bill to the taxpayers far exceeds the benefits.
This is true of farm subsidies too, which also serve to keep food prices artificially high (or in the case of corn, artificially low, which allows movie theaters to offer massive sodas cheap). I’m anti-subsidy (in case you didn’t guess), not not 100% “free trade”. I’m in favor of import tarrifs for countries that don’t have to meet our labor requirements (gotta level the playing field).
I’m in a field where I’m as concerned about outsourcing and loss of jobs as you are, but I don’t think Boeing left because WA state wasn’t competitive. They just took an offer they couldn’t refuse, because states will bend over backwards and “mortgage their future” just to stem the “short term pain” of job losses.
And Chuck – I understood that a lot of the tanker work wold be done on the 767 line here in WA state (not all the work, but some). That was a big reason Boeing was pushing so hard – to keep an existing factory humming for at least a whie.
I’m in a field where I’m as concerned about outsourcing and loss of jobs as you are, but I don’t think Boeing left because WA state wasn’t competitive. They just took an offer they couldn’t refuse, because states will bend over backwards and “mortgage their future” just to stem the “short term pain” of job losses.>>>>>>>>
And that is why this state will continue to lose buisiness as well as not attract new ones. You are right about the Lock deal as well, but that is a leadership problem (the man is worthless as governor). Farm susidies do not keep the price of corn artificially low, corn is mainly cow food and very plentifull, hence the low price, as far as farm subsidies i tend to agree to a point, the only problem is people get upset when there are no potatoes in a given year because the farmers all decided to grow crops that paid better.
Tax deals though are different, whether made with farmers or airplane companies. They arent a subsidy, more like a government investment to assure employment—and they work! Employees=taxpayers
By the way, I think I am making a fair statement that this state is getting less in tax dollars than Boeing was paying before the move…might have been in our interest to had kept them around…Illinois is enjoying a positive cash flow from them…
I think my argument is that if we had paid as much in subsidies as Chicago did, we would more than cancel out the positive cash flow/taxes. It’s like “robbing Peter to pay Paul” Also remember that all businesses do an increasingly good job of avoiding paying taxes by shifting profits into a variety of shelters (some legal, some not).
And if Boeing continues to execute poorly on both commercial air and defense (or keeps violating the law), it’s possible that no one will be enjoying any “benefits” from them.
Chuck – I’ve read a number of analyses that show that the subsidies and tax breaks actually don’t pay back when you compare the money the state has to pay out (which comes from taxes) to the money they get (in new employee income or business taxes). As much as I love sports and the new stadiums, there’s a similar argument there. Economic analysis shows the supposed benefits of keeping professional teams in town fail to materialize into “state coffers”.
And cows don’t naturally eat corn. The reason they are fed corn is that corn is over-produced in this country. The reason it’s overproduced is that we give corn producers subsidies based on production, to protect them. This over-production makes it cheaper to feed cows with corn (instead of wheat/grass) and makes giant sodas and big popcorns cheap. We could import cheaper corn if the subsidies were removed.
A similar situation exists in the steel industry. We’ve artificially kept the steel industry’s employment and the price of steel high for years with tarrifs and subsidies. Unfortunately this only delays the inevitable.
You know, the only argument I support in favor of subsidies is that having marquee companies/industries in your state provides a “psychological” benefit, and pulls other companies to the state. That can’t be measured as easily, but I do think there’s some merit to it. I came here a while back for a job with a small company, but figured if I lost that job, I could go work for one of the big firms (Starbucks, Microsoft, Wamu, etc.). I wouldn’t have gone to a small startup in an area without other options.
(btw, I appreciate the reasonable debate on this matter, even though we clearly disagree)
Stop and consider this…GM wants to build a car plant in Spokane (yea right), they want a lets say 10 year brake on the B&O tax…a tax that this state is not presently recieving. They are going to hire 2,000 employees at good wages. These employees are going to pay sales tax and other tax (a more expensive house than they might have bought otherwise} things like that…how is this costing the state even one thin dime? Now remember…this state is presently recieving NO B&O tax from this firm…how is this a cost to the state?
(by the way I am enjoying the exchange myself)
Back to the corn for a second, you are right that cattle dont normally eat it but they bulk better on corn as well as get a lot more out of it than people. (you may like corn but the human body does a poor job of breaking it up) you would need a few more stomachs to breal it down…
Chuck – One problem is that the state doesn’t need just the tax money from the employees to fund state services. They count on businesses to pay part of their share. Without that money from businesses, the state won’t be able to pay for all the new services those 2000 good-paying jobs will generate.
The second problem is that you can’t just stop with GM (and yeah, right, indeed). You give them a subsidy, and then you have to give it to other companies already here, where we do collect the B&O tax. That’s what happens each time a company already in the state threatens to leave unless they get a big break (like with Boeing or Microsoft).
BTW, Microsoft already gets big breaks, but avoids most taxes by using Nevada as the base of their manufacturing/production. Loopholes and shelters are what kill states and the federal government from collecting the necessary taxes, and what actually encourage higher taxes. As tax compliance decreases, you have to keep ratcheting up the stakes to collect even the same amount.
(new services those 2000 jobs will require – people require those services, paid for by both business and personal taxes).
The 2000 people are already usually there and utilizing the very services that you speak of in a deal such as that, because normaly the company is required to hire the workers from the locaL economy.
The situation with Microsoft is an exelent example of how a state should deal with its buisiness. Nevada attracts much buisiness due to the tax policies. So the point is…back to the hypothetical GM plant, if the state takes the deal, how much are they going to “lose” that would be gained by rejecting the deal? Remember too that other suppliers and such will also locate here to support our hypothetical plant. How much are we presently gaining in taxes from GM that we will lose from the deal?
The point is that we count on those corporate taxes when the state does calculations on how to tax individuals. When we discover a shortfall, the answer isn’t to decrease corporate taxes more (especially on profitable companies that already benefit from huge tax breaks). When corporations don’t pay taxes, the burden falls on the workers. And when corporations receive tax breaks, it doesn’t stop them from laying off workers in lean times further hurting the state (which wasn’t receiving corporate taxes to cover the costs of caring for the now out-of-work).
Corporate tax breaks are like reverse of gambling. They end up being a regressive tax paid for by the people least able to afford it (the poor in our state).
You might want to take a look a the analyses at these sites:
http://www.ctj.org/itep/iteppub.htm#brief
Heres an excellent brief on how federal tax breaks have the opposite of the intended effect: http://www.ctj.org/pdf/corp1004.pdf
(while waiting for my post with the links to show up, I wanted to clarify a point. It’s not how much we are presently gaining, but how much we have relied on in our calculations of what taxes we expect to gain from each business that employs a certain number of people/uses a certain amount of land, etc. Using your example, we could just make it “free” for any business to operate in WA state to encourage new businesses, and the new tax revenue from new employees’ purchases/use of services would magically cover the shortfall in expected tax collections from corporations.
You can’t just include the present value, it’s also the net present value – considering the future value of the dollars from the corporate taxes (I hope I used that term correctly, not sure).
Stop using those voodoo economics, man :)
It isnt voodo economics, it works, Nevada is a prime example of that, as our state is a prime example of buisinesses leaving an unfreindly state.
(my post still hasn’t shown up – Goldy?) Well, we’ve gone round and round on this, and it was fun while it lasted. I don’t agree that WA is a business-unfriendly state, nor do I agree that we should be changing laws left and right to benefit individual businesses. You believe WA is a business-unfriendly state, and believe we need to change laws. Let’s just agree to disagree on this one. Have a happy holidays/merry christmas/etc.
Here’s another link “tax breaks don’t pay”: http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/.....column.htm
Basically, unless you tie the tax breaks to guarantees the businesses will keep jobs, they usually end up being a free ride for the businesses, and you still lose jobs.
Another link – Nevada’s budget crisis. Without all those business and sales taxes they’re awfully dependent on the Federal government.
http://www.ourfuture.org/docum.....mentID=922
And here’s Nevada raising taxes on individuals (mainly the poor).
http://www.ntu.org/main/press.php?PressID=156
A link from that last article I sent:
http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/j.....345569.htm
Sums up my argument well
These levies will disproportionately affect lower-income Nevadans. According to Congress’s Joint Committee on Taxation, more than 2/3 of all federal tobacco taxes come from those earning less than $40,000 per year (this is true of state tobacco taxes as well). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If Nevada is over taxing the poor in this area what are we doing to them in this state where the taxes on these items is staggering?
Another link – Nevada’s budget crisis. Without all those business and sales taxes they’re awfully dependent on the Federal government.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If you check the record, this state is at least as if not more dependant on federal aid, Nevada is not alone in that aspect…
During the recession, the demand for cement mixers crumbled, and Advance Mixer found it had saturated the market during the late 1990s, eliminating even those customers who would have been buying new mixers, Click said.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sounds reasonable to me…if this place was in Washington the alternatives would be go bankrupt or leave the state in Advances case, this is a nice article but falls way short of an actual study. It is basicly in my opinion a very liberal writer with an axe to grind…
So Chuck, I’m curious… what did you think of Ron Sims’ tax plan? It would have eliminated the B&O tax and the sales tax entirely (by constitutional amendment) and replaced them with a personal income tax. Under this plan, there would have been no tax on businesses at all, considerably shifting tax burden from businesses to households.
If they dropped all other taxes in favor of an income tax that we paid once a year that would be a fair and equitable tax, but that wasnt the Simms plan was it?
The Sims plan consisted of eliminating the state sales tax, the state B&O tax, and establishing a state income tax. It also included a $100,000 property tax homestead exemption on the state property tax. Lost revenues would be replaced by a state personal income tax. The rates Sims suggested would have raised about $1 billion more a year in revenues, but taxpayers, in the aggregate, would have saved about $1.4 billion a year in federal income tax deductions.
And all of this would be done by constitutional amendment, so as to assure that is was approved by the people, and that the legislature couldn’t just add sales and B&O taxes back on at a later date.
Personally, I was quite put off by what I had perceived as a dramatic shift of tax burden from businesses to households, but I had the opportunity to talk to his chief economist, and I was persuaded that taxing business owners (and shareholders) when they took profit out of their businesses was more fair, and created fewer economic distortions, than taxing the businesses directly. It also had the very important advantage of inherently eliminating all of our sales and B&O exemptions.
My understanding is that had Sims won the primary, the AWB and Boeing were both prepared to support the proposal (if not Sims himself.) I also talked with House Finance Chair Jim McIntyre, who has been a strong proponent of the proposals that came out of the Gates Commission report, and he seemed quite impressed with the Sims plan, even though it differed dramatically from what he had been pushing.
So Chuck… please don’t assume that liberals like me are anti-business. All politics is a cost benefit analysis. We have a grossly unfair and inadequate tax structure, and if we can reform it in a way that also creates a better business climate, I’m all for it. I’m always looking for creative solutions, and the Sims plan was certainly creative.
I’m with Goldy on his last point. I’m not anti-business at all, but I don’t believe the answer is more subsisides or individual company tax abatement/breaks. If we want real reform without service cuts, we have to make up for the tax cuts with tax increases elsewhere. I’m far more concerned with the state sales taxes disproportionate effect on the poor, our propensity to make up tax revenue shortfalls with increased gambling/lotteries and the fact that the B&O tax doesn’t take losses into account (I hear about that one a lot). As an answer, I support something like Ron Sims’ plan (progressive state income tax = lower/eliminated sales tax, reduced property taxes, reduced B&O taxes for all). I even voted for Ron in the primaries.
But you’re never going to get me to agree that reducing the tax rate for the rich (i.e. Tim Eyman’s dropping of property taxes or motor-vehicle taxes) and/or reducing the business taxes without replacing the source of revenue is going to add up. It’s more business unfriendly for the state to be perpetually poor (like Louisiana) than it is to have some tax policies in need of overall reform.
I take back what I said about Nevada being dependent on the federal dollar. They’re actually better than us in that regard.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/f.....pdate.html
After further research it seems as Nevada’s population has exploded, they’re having trouble paying for all the necessary services because of the very small taxes. But that’s also why you keep seeing tourist (hospitality) taxes keep going up. Being business-friendly (which Nevada certainly is) doesn’t equal sound fiscal policy for everyone in the state. What I meant by my voodoo economics comment was that the money has to come from somewhere.
Simply hoping that because people have jobs they’ll pay enough in taxes (sales, property, etc.) to make up for the massive tax breaks you give businesses, has been shown not to work. So people end up shouldering the burden.
There has to be a more “sound” way to do this.
Goldy, the Simms plan from what you have said looks like something I might support, the problem I might have is I would need to look at it in depth…they dont call him Ron “tax to the max” simms for nothing…
Chuck… Ron Sims website doesn’t seem to be live any more, but here’s a link to an analysis done by the DC-based Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy:
The Impact of the Ron Sims Tax Plan on Washington Tax Fairness
This gives you a good overview, and runs some numbers as to how it impacts various income brackets.
Looks interesting. We need someone to do something about the telephone bill…itemize the thing and look at the taxes on it!
Chuck… don’t get me going on the phone bill… it’s a total lie. Qwest charges me a relatively inexpensive $12.50 per line, and tacks on a $6.00 “federal access charge fee” (or whatever they’re calling it these days. This is not a tax or a mandated fee. It is a fee that the FCC permits the phone companies to charge to recover “regulatory costs”. They could choose to charge less, or none at all. The truth is, they’re charging $18.50 per line, but they’re breaking out $6.00 of it to trick you into thinking it’s a tax, and that the cost of the service is actually much cheaper.
The cable company does similar tricks (though I don’t have cable, thus I can’t look at the bill.) My recollection is that Comcast actually breaks out the impact of the B&O tax, and itemizes it separately on your bill. I have twice almost signed up for reduced rate specials ($14.95/month for 4 months), and each time refused because the Comcast sales rep couldn’t (or wouldn’t) tell me what my real monthly bill would be.
This, by the way, proves a point I like to make with free market ideologues who insist the private sector inherently and always operates more efficiently than government. A bureaucracy is a bureaucracy.
This, by the way, proves a point I like to make with free market ideologues who insist the private sector inherently and always operates more efficiently than government..>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I disagree, the examoles you point out are another example of government meddling. The government gives a certain district away to the electric company you have, hence you have no choice with who you buy your electricity to, effectivly removing any competition, and with the cable company the local jurisdiction SELLS this cable company exclusive rights to sell cable at your house…no other cable company can deal with you. If your local laws and codes allow it you can get a sattelite…but even that has drawbacks (locked into contracts and such things). No Goldy what you speak of is not free market, it is a government controlled market. The government gives the area to the company, taxes the hell out of it THEN tells them how much they can charge…
Now if you want an example of free market, look at long distance companies…you can get long distance for pennies on the minit..
Chuck, the local telephone monopoly was one originally established by Ma Bell, not the government. And it is not going to be a monopoly for much longer. In addition to a couple land lines, I have local numbers on my cell phone and my internet phone (Vonage). I also have a virtual incoming fax number from eFax. That’s competition.
As to cable… I have a choice of two satellite companies that provide local stations, and a third that doesn’t. And where I am, I can also get all my local stations over the air.
But none of this has anything to do with my point. Private enterprises do not always provide services more efficiently than governments. Sometimes they do. Maybe even, more often than not they do. But there are somethings that only government can do, and somethings that they just do better. Pure Libertarianism is a fantasy that is permitted to exist by the fact that it has never been implemented.
Two quick examples of private sector (i.e., “for-profit”) companies NOT operating more efficiently than government are private prisons and charter schools. Some of the private companies trying to compete in those sectors have gone bankrupt, and others have had their contracts revoked because they couldn’t afford to profit AND provide decent services (so they chose profit, and when services deteriorated enough, the government took over again). When it comes to services that are typically in the province of government, private sector companies often aren’t more efficient providers.
Private companies tend to be efficient at producing widgets in our capitalist economy (Dell is probably the best example; McDonalds too), but when it comes to necessary services (where it’s not always profitable to provide what’s needed, and unprofitable customers can’t just be dropped), they’re no more efficient than government.
Nevertheless, I totally agree that there should be competition in cable TV service and local phone service, and perhaps even electrical power. Perhaps the reason we haven’t gotten all that yet is because in each case there’s only one (1) line coming into our houses, and it may be tricky to switch which company gets to use each of those lines when they’re all connected to one larger network. It’s a natural monopoly (bottleneck) of transmission (three of them, in fact). And in most cases, one of the companies providing the services/content owns those transmission lines — and has no interest in sharing (they were granted a monopoly in exchange for serving everyone equally, usually under regulated rates).
Sounds like THIS is a job for… GOVERNMENT! But wait…if you’re going to eliminate a monopoly and usher in competition, then (aside from addressing nasty pricing quandaries related to sunk costs and property rights compensation) how are you going to ensure that even unprofitable customers (e.g., rural folks) get served? Which company has to serve them?
Hi
Who can answer my question?