According to a release on their website, King County Elections Director Dean Logan will ask the canvassing board to amend their certified results to include “approximately” 561 absentee ballots mistakenly rejected because their signatures were not on file in the county’s voter registration system. Original registration records should have been retrieved to verify signatures.
If these ballots break along similar percentages as the rest of the county vote, that should amount to about a 100 vote pickup for Gregoire.
Aaaah, is this legal? Or is this overzealous Dems stealing an election? Jim King, any comment?
I agree somewhat with what Jim K. posted in the last thread.
I think Jim’s been reasonable too. However, I’m guessing from the tone of the release that some King County sub-canvass-board worker screwed up. I doubt they failed to send out 561 notices and/or that all 561 people failed to respond.
This also highlights why most states (including WA) have laws saying that neither “bureaucratic snafus” or “technical errata” shall trump voter intent. People’s legal votes are too important to disenfranchise because they had a stray mark, or an election worker screwed up, or a machine mangled their ballot.
I’m guessing from the tone of the release that some King County sub-canvass-board worker screwed up.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You must mean one of the workers that are now giving us a “more accurate” hand recount? No way I dont belive it….
Chuck, you think you’re supporting your argument against the hand recount, but you’re not. While we all like to believe that any vote count has “maximum scrutiny, we have 100 years+ of experience that tell us that’s not the case (see Goldy’s previous posts). That’s why there are machine and manual recounts as well as the occasional university or media review of elections.
The vote counting process has a much higher level of oversight now that we’re into a hand recount. Perhaps there should be more scrutiny during the first count, but that doesn’t invalidate the fact that a meticulously conducted manual recount has been documented to be more accurate than an initial machine count (see Goldy’s cite of the relevant studies).
Here’s a simple example: I can review a document that I have for errors, run a spelling and grammar checker in Microsoft Word, and still end up with errors that only other people catch.
Why is it so hard for you to believe that a meticulously conducted hand-recount closely supervised by three sets of observers (Dems, Repubs, the media) would increase the accuracy of the count? Uncovering oversights, machine errors, snafus, etc. is exactly what I’d expect during a recount. I see no evidence that anything anyone has done during the recounts has made the results less accurate. In fact so far I’ve seen the opposite.
Dems sounded good in Court.—– Sec State did OK, seemed confused about the case……..R’s sent an ass who picked fight with several Justices, who was that asshole???? Must have been donated attorney night. BAD, real BAD
Okay, I’m done watching the Court…
Comment- I’ll take what is going on in King County at face value. Back many years ago, we had original voter registration cards on file- one at the county, one at the Secretary of State. I worked with those cards in the summer of 1976, when I worked as a signature checker on initiatives- and we had in the room files with ALL of the voter registrations from throughout the state.
Now it is all on computer, and the original registration is in some dusty file cabinet, rarely seen. Info is put into the computer.
That data input creates errors like the error on my voter registration, that has me registering to vote on a date four months earlier than I did- a “2” instead of a “6”- and quite possibly failed to get signatures entered in King County.
Ans some underling didn’t get a signature to check against, so dumped the ballot. I expect several underlings, actually, because this error must be spread across the King County system.
So now we have an opportunity to correct error- again.
I expect we could keep finding error until the Rapture…
The only flaw I see in the process is I do not believe partisans should have been sent out to verify signatures. That is a job that should have been done under county auspices. And I would not challenge a very close election based on that flaw unless I had proof of fraudulent activity- and despite a lot of talk, no one has produced any proof.
All that said, I think the safety valves in state law, that are allowing these errors to be corrected as long as a count is open, totally undermined the Democrats case before the Court today.
Bob- Dems lawyer made best presentation, but had weakest areguments. His reply at the end, focusing on the rejected ballots in Skagit (hi Josef) not being kept in the sealed containers with the other ballots that had been counted, was the final blow. Great presence, weak case.
SOS has great case, lawyer’s “presence” left something to be desired. King County okay. GOP lawyer started off strong, didn’t pick as many fights as you seem to think, but should have shut up sooner. Started strong, then…
But he made the most salient wrapping up point- the Dems are pursuing an election contest case under the guise of a request for a writ of mandamus.
Justices recessed for conference…
You know – all of this really begs the question: Why isn’t there a single national voting standard? The voting process, technology, counting methods, recount standards and observation rules should be the same across the country.
Obviously we’d have to have flexibility to incorporate a number of ways of voting, but even that seems fragmented now (each state has its own way of conducting and verifying absentee ballots).
Of course the states will never go for it. Where are the Republicans who constantly call for constitutional amendments on this one?
Comment by Jim King— 12/13/04 @ 3:06 pm
I will investigate “His reply at the end, focusing on the rejected ballots in Skagit (hi Josef) not being kept in the sealed containers with the other ballots that had been counted, was the final blow.” and in the morning get back to you. An acquaintance of mine happens to be the county Dem chair…
I also appreciate you being the voice of reason.
I also happen to know a few people in county gov’t. I can’t comment further until I find out…
Josef
J Cricket- We have the same problem here- counties rebel at state telling them what to do- unless state pays for it. But go look at the mess New York State is in on changing voting systems…
Anyway, what we have in washington is one of the best- but even the best “break down” at this level of scrutiny. Some of the things we have done to make it easier- register to vote at Department of Licensing- has apparently contributed to the problems as DOL fails to take care to make sure all registrations are forwarded to the elections folks in a timely manner. There is a lot coming out of this that deserves careful consideration by the Legislature.
But do we game the system now? What about my friend, who had her ballot returned to her by the post office- delivering to addressor instead of addressee? I have heard this was a problem in King County, too. Do we set a date that people can bring these in by and have them counted- they WERE postmarked by Election Day…
I am not unaware of tough decisions to be made- but the mantra of “Count Every Vote” never gets us to finality, either, because we could spend the next few months scouring for votes…
Of course, Nostrasnarkus has had to add several new lines to his magic excel spreadsheet. He seems to have trouble with prognostication- or prognosnarktication is it?
This is the spread that never ends….
Reading this new news makes me wonder if my absentee ballot was counted. Is there a way to check? Someone to call?
Jim – thanks for pointing out some of the complexities there are in the voting process. I’m not unaware that reform would be tough, but it seems like the banking world’s got it (largely) figured out.
First, they build very reliable (99.99% or more uptime) systems that perform all the necessary functions. Lots of testing within each bank. They make sure those systems conform to all necessary Federal and State regulations.
Second, they build internal auditing systems, so they can check for inside and outside fraud, system failures, bugs, etc.
Third, end-users can perform spot audits (ATM receipts, quick balance checks) or regular reviews (statement matching, cancelled check comparisons, etc.).
Fourth, outside entities (government, KPMG, etc.) can perform audits using their own methods.
There are rarely any bugs, and even when there is fraud, it’s usually caught, by any of the three methods I mention.
It doesn’t seem to me like voting should have any less scrutiny/controls.
maybe you said it elsewhere but i like to know with the vote by this close, where can i call to make sure my vote has been counted.
This is a little beside the point, but did anyone notice during the hearing that when the dem lawyer was speaking, the SOS lawyer (T. Ahearne, I think his name is) sitting at the table behind, was CHEWING GUM the whole time? If I were on the supreme court, I would have thrown his ass out of the room for total lack of decorum…
Matt- Call your county elections office- be prepared to tell them what kind of ballot (absentee, provisional). They should be able to check real easily as to your status.
Matt- call the election dept in the county you are registered in. Called auditors office in most counties. Or Elections dept in others like King. Yes, check, will make you feel better. I checked despite the fact I am the most informed and smart, and meticulous voter in the nation.
Jim, blaming the post office is an obvius difference than blaming the election office which DID receive the ballot and screwed up processing it properly. BUT suggest she complain bitterly. Ballots need high priority at the old overworked post office.
Jim, you were seeing and hearing what you wanted to hear. Getting lectured by the shy guy Justice to the effect that -most of the cases we hear come to us because of bias- to an attorney in his late 60’s- well glad the old goat was not on my judicial team.
The lawyer for the Sec of State just did his job, poorly. Dressed in a summer jacket, is this palm Beach, chewing gum, talking too fast- bad presenter. Bad case, Very stock, sort of – well we do this a lot and we follow the law and they are wrong. You or I could have writen the script…….should have turned the Dem case on its head and indicated a very pro voter position, clean elections, all well administederd, lots of diretions, as much as is needed and legal from my offices…..etc.
I will watch it later…… I have been involved in seveal court cases…..and when the judge begin to treat one atorney as the expert and has a lot of dislogue with only that person, bad rouble for others in the room and their positions…..Likely what was getting to the R; attorney, flustered by all the attention and conversation about the issues with the Dem lawyer….
They have power, will they use it….a bit for all would be my prediction.
Bob- I was in a room with a bipartisan crowd, and we were double-checking our perceptions… Were you?
And Bob- what is the difference in making every vote count if it was postal error, election error, or department of licensing error? Or any other error? Point is, do we keep this count open until we find ALL the errors committed by government agencies, and correct them?
In our County, we had a guy come to the Courthouse telling the clerk he was from San Juan County and wanted to vote absentee. The clerk explained he would have to vote a “provisional ballot” and it would be sent to his county of registration. The guy took off!!!
Now, how many guys like this somehow were successful. How many folks moved, didn’t inform election officials or the post office, ballots were delivered and the new resident or someone voted more than once?? Just curious. Don’t you think we should spend as much time looking for illegitimate votes as oversights?? I mean, we are all disenfranchised (the Lefties love this word & wear it out) by an illegitimate vote. Right??
One more story–
A well known Leftie in our County moved to Canada a year ago. That’s his permanent residence. Yet he received a ballot (somehow), voted but failed to sign his name. Unfortunately he didn’t try to get his vote counted!!! How many of these must we flush out?? Remember, we are all disenfranchised by an illegitimate vote! Right?
Some of you are actually excussing a 561 vote MISTAKE!!! Come on! If I went to my boss and said, “Oh, sorry, I misplaced 561 cedar fencing boards, please excuse me,” I would be fired so fast it would make my head spin. Not too mention the investigation that would be launched into my private finances to see where I had “misplaced” the boards, etc. Do you really think that these guys should get a pass on this? Please respond if you must, but answer my question, don’t try to insult me, it won’t work. Do you think the election officials in King County should be held responsible for this mistake? My followup would be, “What should happen to them for this.”
DBL: As of now, there are 334 VOTES counted that weren’t counted originally or in the machine recount. These are outside of King County — and on average benefit Rossi. Where is your allegation that these “mistakes” are something more sinister? Why don’t you call for accountablity from them as you do from the King county counters?
Why is King County different? Could it be politics?
It’s all about each party getting their guy elected — regardless of what is said by whom. Counting all votes, hogwash. Don’t change the rules, hogwash. It’s “get my guy (gal) elected” using the rules allowed us (courts, recounts, etc. and say whatever needs to be said to make it look like “i’m right, they’re cheaters.”
Really sad.
Come on Jim- federal postal error is not controlled by local officals, can’t be regulated by state courts- just out of bounds. Sorry your friend lost her ballot to the postal system.
Your Dino guy is going down.
And by a truly fair and accurate count, finally
I watched this court hearing in the company of a couple of media experts- but then every body has their bias– as the good justice so gently explained to the Republican attorney. Must be nice to be the old seasoned war dog R attorney and be lectured from the bench- in a momnet of judicial history, wlth a national audience watching every moment. I watched on C-Span.
Now lets get tuned for the next Wild Card. Or, political twist. Or judical remedy. All add to the drama.
It appears the counting is going very fast in KingCo, over 300,000 ballots already counted, working on absentees.- all that silly blather about taking us into Jan was so much R. scare propaganda.
Tom—
I believe your comment comparing the 561 King Co. votes with the 334 in the rest of the state is very misleading. Many or most of the “new” votes in other counties were ballots previously registered as over- or under-votes. In other words they were run thru the machine…they just didn’t register for a variety of reasons. The 561 in King Co. were previously rejected thus never counted. It’s an important difference. Like DBL, I want to know what the consequences are to the person who made this “error” and to his boss, Dean Logan. I have previously defended Logan but on this I can’t. He should have internal controls in place the catch stuff like this long before now. However, like most incompetent bureaucrats no one is to blame. Why if we asked someone to take responsibility it might injure their self-esteem!!! We wouldn’t want that now, would we. They will send this person to counseling (paid for by us) and of course he will be kept on salary.
Tom,
334 votes between how many county’s? We all know that small differences will be found when you recount in elections. They always do. When I was a surveyor, one thing I learned was that if two teams of people try to survey the same property corner they will NEVER come to the same mark. It just doesn’t happen.
However, when you consider 334 votes devided by however many more county’s these are from(and don’t use the population arguement) compared to the 561 from King county, it should bring some good questions up. And I’m sorry, but if the total number of “extra” ballots found in the “Dino” counties was in the 500 vote range, you would be just as alarmed as the rest of Washington is. Oh, and by the way, you didn’t answer my question. But that is your idea of an arguement isn’t it? Don’t answer the question if you can avoid it.
Tom- partisian politics is what is used in all, yes, Tom, all democracies. We have a two party system, think wht it must be like in those with more strong parties.
I am not sure what you are sad about. The rough and tumble of democracy? It is the reason most evangelicals still don’t vote. Not of this old mean world. It is OK to drop out, another freedom which is very Americian in that there is no fine or penalty for not voting. Or we could use the Stalist system, one party, we all vote for the one party. Not too enticing to me.
Let’s see, DBL, I’m working in accounting, inputting data. There’s an error that I do not bother to go correct- it affects 561 shareholders, including the chairman of the board. The chairman finds out- Now, whether or not I am fired, do you correct the data?
DO YOU FIX THE PROBLEM?
Now, I am heavily invested in Dino- as a lobbyist, my neck is stuck way out there for him. And I don’t come from a multi-lobbyist political family that can play both sides. I REALLY want Dino to win- because I believe in him, AND because I really don’t want to play eight more years of games like I had to with Locke.
BUT, with over three decades of election experience, I do not see anything yet in this election other than understandable human error that gets corrected when noted. Yes, the stakes are high, but the elections administrators of this state have proven time and time again that they are WORTHY of the great trust given them.
And despite efforts to “Change the Rules”, everything done to date has been done according to the long-standing and established rules governing elections in Washington (other than the partisans being entrusted to work signature verification- and for all the sound and fury there, no one has brought forth ANY proof of fraud).
This is a rough ride- up, down, twisting all over- but so far it has been an honest ride.
Who knows what will happen next- or in which county?
Tom,
Imagine living in Britain with three major parties, France with 5, Germany with 4, or Israel with 28 political parties. I all we do is whine about the system, nothing will ever get accomplished. Buck up, get used to it, and learn to live with it. Or your could move to Canada and still try to vote in Washington(which by the way is highly illegal). It’s also illegal to be double registered, although, in my research, many people in this state are.
So Bob- it isn’t count every vote. We shouldn’t let those voters bring their postmarked in time ballots in personally, since the Post Office couldn’t get the job done? I smell hypocrisy here…
And Mr C- don’t forget those 224 Snohomish ballots from last recount, that were never counted, but then were… Oh, those broke for Dino…
And, unfortunately, permanent overseas residents get to vote…
Jim,
As a citizen of Washington, and as a upcoming political hack, I appreciate your investment and belief if Dino Rossi. However, in my studies, and as I am somewhat involved with several research projects I am not at leisure to discuss, I actually see some of the incompetent blunders King County has made in this election. I would like to put my full trust and confidence in the election officials across this state, and for the most part I do, however, when the largest segment of our population is located in and around King County, and having seen what I have, the officials of King county have lost my trust and full confidence. You mentioned “the partisans being entrusted to work signature verification.” This is quite possibly just the tip of the iceberg my friend.
And by the way, of course you fix the problem, unless you want to run King County like Enron. Even Ken Lay attempted to salvage that failure to his best ability’s, but there were still people who lost millions Jim. The point is, the problem shouldn’t have occured in the first place. And I would hardly consider a member of the King County council, chair or not, the CEO of King County.
Jim – you are sounding like Mr C- I wish these postal error ballots could be counted. If I ran the counting board I would go grab them, do a tally sheet, sign it and glare at any who dared oppose my decision. But, if the problem is not with the county- I don’t know if the regs allow a correct. I KNOW Dean Logan MISTAKES can be corrected. AND I have been saying that for many days now.
Bitter pill for some not to be right all the time. Bean counters cry bitter tears when the beans get out of line. Natural law.
CHRIST INE =====CHRIST MAS, DOES ANYONE KNOW A NUMEROLOGIST?
WRITE THIS ONE DOWN IN INK!!!
If the manual recount changes the result, this State will be tied up in Initiatives until Gregoire is gone. Anything she is for or against…the opposite will go on the ballot. It is the one legal outlet the loyal opposition has. I think you will literally have to cut off peoples hands to stop them from signing initiatives!!! It’s sad but not everyone is a pansy-ass lobbyist who blows in the wind…standing for nothing and falling for anything..for a buck.
Regarding flushing out those who vote twice and/or the original bureaucratic snafoo that allow them to (and just generally FYI for all you exceptional scrutinizers). I have lived in Texas for 8 months. One of the first things I did when I moved here was register to vote, and I promptly received my registration card. In October I went back home to Ohio for a visit and lamented audibly about not being able to cast a vote in a battleground state. My friend offered that maybe I could, and off we drove to the BOE. Lo, there I was on the list of eligible voters under an address long since abandoned. So, I promptly voted in Ohio and thought long and hard about bureaucratic snafoo on the plane ride home to Texas, discarding the idea of voting twice for John Kerry because I belong to the party of morality. I’m just wondering: why didn’t I have the foresight to check the rolls in Washington first since I lived there for 2 years? Optimistic but counting no eggs, soospoptart
Jim–
Those ballots found in Snohomish County were never previously rejected were they? And didn’t Rossi gain a net 1 vote Jim?? My memory cells are being taxed to the max at this point. Too much Chivas in the 80’s.
DLB- double registed may not be double voted. There are many issues of residence, temporary vs permanet, travel, student, miliriary, failure to purge old lists, and so forth.
Why is being an American in Canda make you foirfeit your right to vote if you have not changed citizenship?
All the innuendo about illegal voting, voter fraud and all the rest is just about TOTALLY negated by the way most folks are so stinking , completely law abiding. Thye don’t steal, pay their taxes in full- stress over parking tickets, and recoil in horror at the thought of voter fraud. More apt to shoot the neigbor in a fracas over nothing.
Get real- mass voter fraud is the same example Reagan used of the welfare queen. Pure ballyhoo and unfounded. Conservative nonsense when we don’t all vote right wing to suit them.
Mr C- should have stayed with the Kansas hemp – no B damage at all
Party of morality…? So, you voted in a state you didn’t live in, you did not make the local election official aware of the fact, and you wish that you hadn’t cheated in Ohio, but instead in Washington?! Sir, I think if you would have pulled off a stunt like that, you would have been named Secretary-General and Defender of the Democratic Party!
What morals, exactly, do you have? Good gracious man! When my mother and father raised me, they taught me the old rules of don’t cheat, don’t steal, and don’t lie, no matter how big or how small! I’m sure you’re a decent person to speak with and probably get along fine with others, so I don’t question you as a person, just your actions and your moral judgement. Please explain what morality you are using because if this is becoming the norm, we might as well all just start cheating our way to the top(or bottom).
Don’t be so silly DBL- they guy voted once. You are chasing shadows in your self righous cape. That stalwart voter fits the mobile American profile, we move a lot, don’t keep records well, obscxure election law are not a high prority when faces eith rent and food and love life, AND STILL we do not cheat.
You find any voter fraud, out with it. Call the media, prosecute the bastards male or female, and I will spit on them at the courthouse…… all the spacy insinuation is stupid.
Bob,
You are correct about double registration possibilities. However, wouldn’t you like to make sure that some of my, let’s say less moral, friends voted twice or maybe three times? This may have, and it may not have happened.
Some people in Canada, considering the fact that they too share this continent with us and Mexico, consider themselves Americans, and no, being a United States citizen living in Canada should not necessarily make one “forfeit your right to vote.” Go to post 22 where Cynical states that “A well known Leftie in our County moved to Canada a year ago. That’s his permanent residence. Yet he received a ballot (somehow), voted but failed to sign his name.” This IS illegal if he has made Canada his permanent residence, therefore negating his U.S. citizenship.
Finally, your “well thought out arguement” regarding voter fraud; “…most folks are so stinking , completely law abiding. Thye don’t steal, pay their taxes in full- stress over parking tickets, and recoil in horror at the thought of voter fraud. More apt to shoot the neigbor in a fracas over nothing.”
Sir, turn on the evening news.
Pardon, but the moral poster from Texas is female. And if that gets you riled, check out my blog! Tee! http://blogs.salon.com/0004300/
“…… all the spacy insinuation is stupid.”
But it sure does bring out the most thought provoking, informative and politically savy arguments from you, doesn’t it… :)
DBL- I referred to Phillips as the chairman of the board- not the ceo. As Chair of the King County Council, he IS the chairman of the board.
And Bob- so you concede my point- “fair” or not, we CAN’T count every vote- we can count the votes the law allows us to count. Clear errors by the county can be reversed- that is the 561 ballots, as an example. Judgement calls and other problems are not in play…
And Mr C- no, the Snohomish ballots were not rejected- but they had not been counted previously. The 561 in King County should NOT have been rejected- the original registration should have been retrieved, rather than relying on the LACK of data in the computer database. They are having to get the info from the Secretary of State, but it was and is available… Although I still believe Larry Phillips should have paid attention to his mail- we’d have then known about THIS problem four weeks ago…
Couldn’t afford the Kansas hemp Bob! But I sure wouldn’t mind a big bowl full of whatever you got goin’!! Your residence is normally defined by where you lay your head at night. Bob, you are saying if you moved away from Washington State and are no longer a resident, you can still vote in the Governor race (if you only vote once??). C’mon Bob. Next you will be defending those who voted but are no longer residents of Washington as somehow NOBLE??? WOW! Then you proceed to give these cheats ways out like “temporary” residents. That’s a good one Bob!! And what the hell does “failure to purge old lists” have to do with it?? So it’s ok to cheat if a Election Officials don’t know you have moved?? I can’t relate to your creativity of ways to justify scamming the system Bob. I guess that what makes you such a good & loyal Democrat. Ethics don’t matter huh? It’s what you can get away with that counts!
Pardon, but the amoral poster is female and if you are offended with her despicable voting fraud, you oughtta check out her blog (http://blogs.salon.com/0004300/). Besides (slowly becoming offended) I vote according the The Carter Center’s Democracy Program’s prerequisites for good democracy, which include standardized, national systems. Just because I am ahead of the voter reform curve, doesn’t mean I am without morals)
DBL- you do NOT negate your U.S. citizenship by becoming a permanent resident in another nation. And you DO get to vote here. Federal law.
And Bob- the guy voted where he should not have- he had moved to Texas and registered there, transferring residence. It is not legal, moral, OR ethical to pile up voter registrations, then decide where you want to vote.
I hope he pays his Ohio state income tax, since he chose to maintain his residence THERE, by voting THERE… (Texas has no state income tax).
Jim,
My bad.
Is that all you got? C’mon man, I expect more out of you guys.
Er, my comment keeps getting “held for approval” because of the link to my amoral blog, I think. Anyway, for the third time, just a note that the amoral poster is female and she votes according to the Carter Center’s Democracy Program prerequisites for fair democratic elections which provide for a standardized national system of rules and the abolition of the electoral college, which should in theory make voting anywhere okay so long’s ya do it only once, which is all I ever did. Just because I am ahead of the voter reform curve doesn’t mean I’m all immoral and stuff.
I am a taxpayer sho ’nuff, despite my shameful neoconservative and libertarian past.
I promise to officially withdraw my vote and turn myself in if after the Ohio hand recount Kerry is victorious. Somehow, I think I’m safe.
Sorry C- don’t smoke. And hemp makes rope. Was teasing.
You are an engineer with Bechtel- Alberta oil plant contract- you get transferred, there two years, Why should you loose your right to vote?
C- you might need some Old Rocking Chair before this is over. Medicne. If the counties are not good about cleaning up the rolls you might be rgistered in several, no at all your fault. Or intention to defraud. Mobile America exists, living in the same farm house for 40 years is a thing of the way past.
Going to the counting houses tomorrow, got a press pass today- try to free lance this to the Euro market. Need scandal, sex and ballots, let me know.
But soos- did you ONLY vote in the Presidential race, or did you cast a vote in Ohio races?
And Bob- if you register in a different county, if you’ve been honest and told them you had been registered elsewhere (in state), a notice is sent cancelling your previous registration.
I have a cousin who is a missionary to Japan. She lives there most of the time, obviously. However, she desires to maintain her U.S. citizenship. Every three years it is necessary for her to return to the U.S. for 6 months. Then she can leave again for three years. Many companies have systems worked out so their employees are capable of maintaining a good standing with their citizenship. However, if you choose to give up your citizenship to the U.S., or if I was to give up my citizenship to Washington and move to Texas or Ohio, you couldn’t vote in the U.S., and I couldn’t vote in Washington anymore, legally, but judging by the “morals” of some writers, it isn’t necessary to “follow the law.”
And DBL- sorry if you feel that I didn’t snark you, but I’ve been storing up my best for Nostrosnarkus- that, and developing a twelve-step program for those who keep calculating the odds on this election.
We are beyond statistics. We are at the quantum level, with Heisenberg uncertainty. The nine dimensions of the strings have enveloped us. And at this point, if you REALLY want answers,
Go Ask Alice…
Jim,
I agree with your arguments, mainly because they back mine up. However, I must say, if I want answers, Alice is the last person I’m going to. No offense.
And DBL- it is NOT necessary to return to the United States to maintain citizenship- some OTHER countries will not allow you to stay longer than a certain period of time, others let emigres stay forever.
I have a friend in- argh!- France- she’s been there fourteen years, hasn’t been back to the States. She is still a citizen, she still- legally- votes here, as her last residence stateside.
She does NOT, however, choose to vote in Ohio- doesn’t like state income taxes… :)
And I would not choose to vote in Texas- my daddy had the great sense to stop pickin’ cotton and tun away from Lubbock when he was sixteen, and ain’t NONE of us wanting to go back, except to visit family…
DBL- how old are you? Did you miss the reference?
With the gay marriage ban on the Ohio ballot, I could morally do no other than cast a local cry of protest over this most offensive initiative. And I did it with smiles. And HEY, I am an Ohioan, no matter what my address is right now. I realize I’m posting into an abyss of lawyers and political players, and anything sublegal may result in my being labelled “crackpot”, but how am I to hide my activist nature? BTW, it’s weird to be used as a cipher through which old timey posters battle their different politics! Howdy! My name is Susan. How is everybody?
Howdy Susan- some of us are trying to maintain a sense of humor through all this- it is the only way to survive in politics- laugh at yourself, and everyone else- while trying to discuss what is going on.
This site is one of the more civil in the Matrix…
Besides, we are in hell, and we drug the neo-cons with us- right Goldy?
Mr Cynical. Bob is absolutely correct. I work all over the world, presently in Bangkok. And I have an equal right to you to cast my ballot in my state of residence. You should understnd law before you start teaching us your moralities.
Jim P–
I’m talking about people who have physically changed their residence.
You Lefties love to twist this into a self-righteousness about somehow being denied.
Try this one on Lefties–
Student moves to California. Establishes residency for tuition purposes. So is paying in-state California tuition. Is this difficult for Jim P and Bob to follow….allow me to pause so you can digest………………………………
“Student” who has established residency in California and gets California in-state tuition, is still registered to vote in Washington. Can he still vote in Washington? Good luck with this one because it is happening.
Jim – I know all that buddy. Perfect world, no recount needed.
Real world, recount needed, card does not get mailed, dog eats it at post office, in that bag the postal carrier pitched in bay, get retuned as not deliverable although in reality the address is perfect.
Still registered in two places, no fraud, no intent to deceive. There are people posting here that think those cases are the result of deception, fraud and mischief. Not true. Rare voter fraud.
Jim – you cant’t be in hell, and none of your friends will be there. You are not capable of enough evil end up there. Trust me, I know that. Hitler will be lonely in my hell, even if the evangelicals would give him the company of millions simple sinners. But another post.
Bob- hell is an endless recount, stuck with the Snark as your drinking buddy… Just playing on Goldy’s subjects…
Write this one down, Cynical… all it takes to get an initiative on the ballot is a half million bucks to pay the signature gatherers. People will sign almost any petition, without reading it or asking questions.
And I think you’re making a mistake if you think the rest of voters are as angry as you.
Angry? Is it time to be angry? Goldy, my leftist friend, you’ll remind this right-wing Republican when it is time to get angry, won’t you? Like when Eyman files his next initiative…
Maybe he could use snarkthematics to qualify this time…
I know Jim King will correct me- but- the ballots cast count in the previous Gov races sets the signature threshold. SO, all time vote, many thousands of added signatures. In this state, very high number get much higher, in Jan 2005.
Sorry Mr C,- Timmie don’t work for free.
In recent years the only group to get them with volunteers were the enviros- and they had staff and spent a lot of money.
After Chistine declares Washington Safe Green Zone, she will be safe.
Remember the Wild Card to Beal All Wild Cards is yet to emerge.
Jim… it’s never a question of when you or I or Cynical or the Snark get angry. We’re the passionate partisans. We get angry all the time.
But voter anger, en masse, that is a truly rare and powerful force. The politician who taps into it, is lucky indeed. The politician who can generate it, is to be feared.
Some of the less than fair things are things like my Dad has a house in Florida, and a house here. He supports both tax systems but yet can only vote in one state…
The Gregoire/Berendt team forgot to calculate one unquantifiable risk to their futures when they decided to “break the tie”: the King County votes will very likely be counted again, after this is over, in 2005. What if the wild theory that more illegal/double voters, etc. voted democrat is correct, and the pending Gregoire narrow victory is exposed by some good research by the press or whoever? There is a real risk to her that this will occur, and if it does the results are disastrous for the state demos. The law-abiding voters Bob referred to are already turned off by Gregoire’s approach to this (didn’t know about the lawsuit, etc.) Her support if it does occur will be really low and a recall/initiative or loss of the hosue/senate would occur. That will be voter anger unleashed.
My own theory, completely unfounded, is that many of the “get out the vote” activists among the college crowd and the Dean fans were college kids or recent grads who went ahead and registered/voted twice. Once here and once in their home state or county. It is so easy for them to do it the way things are run. National ID crads, with digital fingerprints, would solve this double registration loophole.
And Chuck, I hope nobody promised you life would be fair. One person, one vote no matter where all your stuff is.
zip- The college kids of today are not on fire about anything except their right to drink beer at big parties…sorry… but very middle class kids who manage to get all that money together to pay the cost….not a group about to explode in any direction…they register and don’t vote mostly, let alone vote twice…think your theory is guesswork
zip, way to push for a national ID card system with digital fingerprints! That’s using your head! Perhaps you should read more of George Orwell’s books and stop getting all your news from only five different people. I mean, seriously. You have no idea what you’re supporting.
just as long as you don’t label me a neo-con. And Brent, I do have an idea what I’m supporting. Credit agencies, IRS all have the info already so the cat’s out of the bag.